Back in the day i used to race my buddy from work everyday on the way home. I had a 1971 lt1 camaro and he had a 68 440 six pack charger. both cars stock. The race was usually even . Today i would love to have either car. I miss chrome bumpers
Tp. Back in the day me and my buddy used to race home off army base 30 miles, 55 belair 265 cu. In.v8 and crown vic. 312 in v8 pretty even but my crown usually won.
Been doing this long enough. To many say Ford yea, Chevy yea, or dodge yea. It all comes down to what you got under the hood! All the car is, is a carriage to hold the power. I am MOPAR in and out but also MAN enough to have a deep love for the other 2. How can you not love the style of a Chevelle and or a Torino! I hate one sided pricks....
When I was in high school I had an evening job at a full service gas station (you older guys will know what I mean) and one guy I worked with had a 70 Torino GT with a CobraJet 429. It was a sweet ride. Lots of power too.
Spot on man! All muscle cars are badass, sexy and fast!! I'm a huge MOPAR head as well, but man... Second company on my list comes Pontiac! The GTOs rule!! But mad respect for all muscle car companies!
Out of the box means showroom condition. No loosening/ removing drive belts, air filters, no tuning carburetors, adjusting timing etc. Often the factories delivered tuned and blueprinted ringers to magazines to tests. Pontiac and Jim Wangers were notorious for this. Plymouth passed around a 1969 440-6 pack to testers that was later revealed to be tuned and blueprinted and ran a Hemi Grind camshaft. This car did 12.9s with Ronnie Sox driving it but hardly resembled a showroom stock car.
I have personally outran a 426 Hemi with a stock 350/300 more than once. It was running perfect and I knew the guy well. My at the time stock '70 Chevelle SS 350/300 was running perfect too. OBTW....I very briefly owned a mint '68 GTX with a 440 back in 1983. It was nothing to write home about and as a matter of fact, my friend Todd had a stock '68 Dodge Dart 340 "Four Barrel" that blew my doors off in the standing 1/4. OBTW #2....Stage 1 455 beats all...including a '70 454 LS6. I own both.
I grew up when those cars ruled the streets on the weekends and would love to own either one of those today. Both are bad ass muscle from a time that unfortunately we will never see again.
1969 ZL1 Camaro in racing trim could cover the quartermile in as little as 10.41 seconds at 128.10 mph. That was with the "stock" Holley 850-cfm carburetor. On April 19, 1969 a Yenko Camaro with factory-installed headers and racing slicks, driven by Ed Hedrick, did the quarter-mile at a drag strip in York, Pa, in 11.94 seconds at 114.5 mph
i love camaros we have a 68 also its really old though and we are planning on fixing it up it used to be my dads hopefully someday it ends up mine! = ]
If the horsepower is correct on these, then they are not stock. The 440 would have 390 max and that would be the 440 6pack (factory rated). The 396 would have a little less than that. Also as far as the two cars, the Challenger weighs more. I love both. I have owned a 70 Charger R/T 440 Magnum (375 hp). My former brother-in-law had a 66 Chevelle SS 396. Like I said, I love both. You one sided guys get over it.
Great video! It's sad that MOPAR cars are worth so much now and everyone wants a Charger... Back in the day a true muscle car guy would gladly get rid of his "rust bucket" MOPAR for a Camaro or Firebird.
Overall, I'd say the 440 six pack Mopar was the best street/strip engine of any manufacturer,, The three carb setup needed little tweeking and had lots of everything, and the hydraulic cam required no adjustment. And if a street or the race hemi is set up right, given equal cars, weights, driver ability etc, the Hemi will prevail.
I totally agree it doesn't matter the brand or the size of the motor it matters how good of a mechanic you are and how well its built. Even though im more of a ford guy ive seen some impressive stuff from all 3 brands in my life like Gliddens destroked 330 Cleveland cleaning house for years against the bigger chevy motors he knew what he was doing to extract every ounce of power out of the dominant Cleveland. Ray Scardelli's standard stroke 289 running in the 9s in his ford probe who would have thought a small motor like that would smoke either of the cars on this video but if you have the know how and a endless bank account anythings possible. I have a original 396 chevy, 383 and 440 chrysler but hell im looking for a small 283 or 289 myself because its alot more fun winning against a bigger motor and showing them whats under your hood the look on their face is priceless.
For what it's worth, I used to drag race in a '69 Camaro when I was younger. We went up against plenty of Mopars, including hemi's. Never lost to a hemi... not once, not ever. That's the honest truth. We actually had more trouble against a couple of Fords that I can recall, as well as against other Chevy's. I'm not sure what the problem was for the hemi Cudas and such... maybe a bad gearbox design..? They had plenty of horses. They just never seemed to get off the line fast enough to beat us.
I used to race a buddy with a Challenger 440 Six pack. When I first picked up my Camaro, we both thought he would beat me, but it turned out we were wrong. His Challenger just 'felt' faster than mine, very good suspension on the ol Challengers. (Hemi suspension, rear & trans.) But my Camaro was just a bit faster. (1970 396ci 375hp) Although the suspensions were crap on the Camaros. Both were basically stock, except for headers on both of them.
Pretty well ALL American V8 engines are great for making big power..you can even make some very serious power with the deleted AMC V8 like never before, and....even Studebaker!! Yeah, .Some time ago, I built up an old 289 Stude V8, for a guy that owned an little Stude Lark..bored, balanced, cam, homemade try Y headers, bigger 4 Bbl, bit of port work on intake and heads and that thing really wailed!!, talk about DIFFERENT!! lol!,
I honestly didnt care who won that race, it was 2 beautiful American muscle cars goin at it, its like a catfight, you don't care who wins its just awesome to watch
Camaro: Every third house in town has a nice one in the garage... Challenger: Awesome classic that turns heads every time it's outside. Speed is great, but it isn't everything.
Yeah that is true as to what you are saying.Thats why they refer to some cars as sleepers,they look slow and stock on the outside,but have some very serious power under the hood.If you look at the early 60's Maxwedge Mopar and 409 Chevy Byscayne sedans.They looked like something our grandmas normally drive to church,but have a killer bigblock with dualquads under the hood.
yeah,it would be in a museum! the 12 sec muscle car thing is different.there were a few 12 sec. stompers.1969 1/2 440+6 super bee was a 12.8 car all day long with 8" cheaters.1969 396/375 too Bobby Kolachick did 12.77,12,82,12.80,12.86 at dover with his Nova back in 72'.The Hemi cars would run LOW 12 with just headers( my wifes accord has a header)and a sticky 9" tire.These cars paved the way for what you drive today.Everything has a stainless header, aluminum intake PLUS computer management !
My new dream is to get a 1970 Dodge Challenger SE or R/T with a fuel-injected 440 Magnum or 426 Hemi, put on a supercharger sticking out of the hood (looks awesome) or a shaker hood, do a ton of machine work on the engine to get extra horse power, get an auto transmission with a slap stick shifter, put in anti-sway bar suspension, racing tires, custom rims, a good sound system, new air conditioning, new interior and seats, and paint it orange or yellow with the top painted black.
@winged70bbody2 You're talking about about, a Hemi Dart, Thunderbolt. These were specially built race cars you could not walk into a dealership to buy. They were built specifically and set aside for professional drag racers. It's also documented on the website dedicated to ZL1's that a ZL1 Camaro in full steet trim ran a best of 13.10 on slicks. It was also a purpose built automoble. Your Superbird at 101 mph can run an absolute best 13.4 et. Plug the number in the TCI Racing Calculator.
Copo 9561 is an iron block 427 Camaro. Central Office Production Order was a way a high powered dealer like Yenko could circumvent the 400 cube limit imposed by GM. Kind of a stretch to call these factory muscle cars since you could not walk into just any dealership and order a 427 Camaro. The Regular Production Option cars were what 99.9% of people had. I've got a 1969 Super Stock Magazine with a test of the Yenko. Its was in the 13's out of the box, 12.6 with tune, open headers and slicks.
true but in the 1980s when hemis and hemi parts were hard to come by a small company manufactured hemi heads for the 440 wedge block. only a handful of the heads were made and theyre very rare and very expensive. if you ever find a set for under $7000 buy them
The Camaro was more probably more like 500HP while he Challenger was bone stock. The 440 would always walk away from a 396 any day of the week, all day and every day. Mopar was KING of the streets back in the day.
I have seen plenty of 350/396 take a hemi, the problem was the hemi was a pain to adjust the carbs to get it to run right and stay that way so they would get them on the first half of the 1/4. 1970 chevelle 454 ss was a little late but spanked a hemi all day in a 1/4..... hemi shines on the top end on a track with long straits is why it did well in nascar accept for the blocks cracking
We're working on a '70 440 six-pack Challenger at our shop right now and we've done several first generation Camaro's, the Camaro is the better car, hands down. The subframe on the Challenger looks like a toothpick compared to the Camaro's.
MY 456x3 c.i. engine runs on solid rocket fuel, and craps ice cubes. Its 9780 HP and runs 3 second quarter miles pulling 13 G's with my uni-tire and 4 tires up front for maximum traction. I typically race the J-79 jet engines, but lately I have been racing 1300hp Civics & Sentras with 12" exhaust and your local Mustangs with the V6. "Your guy's race wars against makes & models is extremely dated" Makes driving these less fun everyday.
Actually the old tri-power setups are a pain, but the new ones were pretty nice. The only carb with adjustments was the center 2 barrel, the outboard carbs just dumped gas. I really loved the Corvette setup I had, but the carbs were getting to be junk and I didn't want to buy a new set for the manifold.
I know someone with an original LS6 '71 SS chevelle that can prove you wrong there! Chevrolet 454's were not bad engines at all but the 396 was probably more popular in those days and since I grew up in the '60s I remember quite a few of them.. the Fords, Chevy, Mopar...my dad owned a shop doing a lot of engine work, rebuilds, performance, etc, and the 460 was NOT one of Ford's better engines at all! As for the 289, yes a very popular engine but I'd easily have to pick the Chevy 350 4bolt main!
@midnitesquirldog what about the ZL1 aluminum 427 bbc? 560 hp but company rated at about 430hp for the same reason the engine designed to put the camaro into Super Stock compitions
Actually there a lot more than 69 COPO's produced, but only 69 of them in 1969 had the aluminum ZL1. The rest were the iron block 427/425HP L72 motor which was installed by dealers such as Fred Gibb, Nickey Chevrolet and Yenko, among others.
F Body GM's were light. Big Blocks made them quite fast. Challengers were heavy cars. Well built cars. Like the Cuda's ( I had a 70 Cuda ), the 440 Magnum put out 375 Horsepower. Depending on the version of the 396 would tell the tale. Weight matters. This is speaking stockers. Modifications always change the story. Both beautiful cars....
I know on paper it doesn't make sense. But some STOCK 340 six packs can keep up with SOME 440 six packs. It all depends if you got one of the few great running factory engines. And your 454s are heavy as hell compared to the very light 340 my dad's friend's old 340 six pack with a cam can unbelievably run with some hemis. It doesn't make sense, but they pack a huge punch.
@DGKall2010- I'm refering to cars that you could buy back then. The ZL-1 Camaro was built only to legalize the ZL-1 engine for sanctioned racing. About 50 were made. These cars were strippers (no heat , no radio etc) and offered primarily to racers like Grumpy Jenkins and Dick Harrell. A few may have slipped through to the general public. The average Joe couldn't get one. The 11.7 ET you refer to is for a race tuned vehicle. The typical ET of an out of the box ZL-1 was around 13 flat.
I love the bowties but, NHRA had to make a new class when Dodge/Hurst released the LO23 Super Stock Hemi Dart in 68. Nobody else could even come close!
@5inthehole First, the video description says it's a Challenger, not a Charger. Also, it says the CHALLENGER has ~400hp, while the Camaro has 435+, so the Camaro has more power.
@GMARQUIS90 - I have to agree with you on this one. The 427 Cobra was not a built on a production line but you could walk into any Ford dealership and order one. A 427 Cobra off the showroom floor with only the addition of slicks could get it the 12's. Tweaking and tuning of any kind was not reqiured. However, they came with the 427 Side Oiler not the SOHC. The 427 SOHC was never installed in any production Ford.
I thought it was a pre good video clip. I'm more of a Mopar fan myself,, but i have respect for all brands after they get so old.. So i'll still say congrates to the Camaro, Because they were pretty cool looking cars back in those days aswell.
Now get this right, the 440 was NOT an engine designed for racing, they developed this larger cube engine in '66 for the Chrysler and Imperial, and then in '67, Mopar felt the need to fit this engine into their mid sized offerings. The only differences in the two mills is the 67 440 had slightly different heads, cam and intake from the '66. The 396 was of racing direction, derived from the old 427 "mystery motor" designed in '63. Both engines develop power in different ways. 'NUFF said.
very true. plus the specs on the camaro vary greatly on the internet so its very hard to compare the two. and although i love the new challenger and greatly prefer it to the new camaro, i do think the camaro has a very slightly better power to weight ratio. though with the right driver the challenger can win.
Actually the 440 was a better street engine than the Hemi. That doesn't mean the Hemi was slow. Hemis were a little harder to tune and keep tuned right. With 2 four barrels and dual point distributors, someone would have to know how to keep them tuned right. It is amazing what some of the guys on this thread think they know about cars. The 440 engine is one of the best engines ever built.
OMG!! I will state this AGAIN!!. The only engine developed PRIMARILY for racing by Chrysler was the 426 HEMI. The 396-427 was based on the 427 Z-11 "mystery motor" from '63. VERY MUCH a racing design. Look at a cylinder head on a 383-440 engine. then check out the port design and layout on the 396-454. The Mopar "wedge" big block was never INTENDED to be a race type engine, when they were introduced in the late '50's. BB Chev's and Mopars are very different, in many ways.
It depends on who was driving and what setup each car had under the hood. All that we know is what engine was in each, not what it had for carbs, exhaust, rear end, etc. It looked to me like the Dodge was doing quite well, the Camaro was leading but it still couldn't loose the Challenger.
@GMdrivingMOPARguy they do make about 600 stock at the flywheel. I bought mine from a kid down the road. His dad had owned it for 40 years. when his dad Died I bought it. It was just sitting on a stand. You can buy all the aftermarket stuff to build your own But the fact that I found one that was an original is crazy. It now sits on a stand and I built a procharged 408 for the old ford.
@DONDIVA1969 yeah that is actually probably around right. i think the quarter ET i was thinking of was with a zl1 camaro that headers and slicks. but im pretty sure around 690 camaros were made with the zl1 engine
@DodgeChallenger426 yep the 440 TNT is just how Chrysler labeled the 375hp 440. The guy who claims a stock one made 475-480hp may have seen a modded 440 with dual quads make that power on a block that was a 440 TNT.
The thing about the Cleveland, was the heads, the intake runners were HUGE, properly setup, they breath like you wouldent believe. Actually all built the same, it would be in the same class... except a built 440, will stomp a similiarly built 396..... and im a chevvy guy LOL !
This is where its at. All engine mano-e-mano. The old days where people raced engine vs engine and it was all the skill in who build the better/faster engine. Now people see who paid someone to put the bigger supercharger/turbo/nitrous kit then whine about cubic inches and the need for such power adders. We have all seen a small block chevy beat a big block chevy without the need for a supercharger. Never the less a fine pair of cars here!
Back in the day i used to race my buddy from work everyday on the way home. I had a 1971 lt1 camaro and he had a 68 440 six pack charger. both cars stock. The race was usually even . Today i would love to have either car. I miss chrome bumpers
Tp. Back in the day me and my buddy used to race home off army base 30 miles, 55 belair 265 cu. In.v8 and crown vic. 312 in v8 pretty even but my crown usually won.
Say...are your pants on fire?
How’d you have an lt1 in a 71 camaro…? That didn’t come out until the 90s
Been doing this long enough. To many say Ford yea, Chevy yea, or dodge yea. It all comes down to what you got under the hood! All the car is, is a carriage to hold the power. I am MOPAR in and out but also MAN enough to have a deep love for the other 2. How can you not love the style of a Chevelle and or a Torino! I hate one sided pricks....
I agree. I'm Mopar, but love the others too. Most true muscle car guys love them all too. I was there when it was happening.
When I was in high school I had an evening job at a full service gas station (you older guys will know what I mean) and one guy I worked with had a 70 Torino GT with a CobraJet 429. It was a sweet ride. Lots of power too.
Spot on man! All muscle cars are badass, sexy and fast!! I'm a huge MOPAR head as well, but man... Second company on my list comes Pontiac! The GTOs rule!! But mad respect for all muscle car companies!
anyone who claims to be a MOPAR man and likes a ford or a cheby will most likely lick a dogs ass
ruffypoo agree. As long is not a gay import .....
one of the best racing videos involving two iconic muscle cars. This video definitely reminds me of Dazed and Confused. ah memories at last.
Challenger is most likely stock. Camaro obviously isn't stock with a 435+ 396. Either way, I'd take that Challenger any day. Gotta love me a 440.
I have to agree... I've never seen a stock 396 with 435 hp
Challenger not stock if it had 400+.
440 6 packs made 390hp so neither were stock.
Hell yeah, Crab Man!
True car guys appreciate both.
Out of the box means showroom condition. No loosening/ removing drive belts, air filters, no tuning carburetors, adjusting timing etc. Often the factories delivered tuned and blueprinted ringers to magazines to tests. Pontiac and Jim Wangers were notorious for this. Plymouth passed around a 1969 440-6 pack to testers that was later revealed to be tuned and blueprinted and ran a Hemi Grind camshaft. This car did 12.9s with Ronnie Sox driving it but hardly resembled a showroom stock car.
All I know, is that I just watched two awesome cars duke it out on some back road in BFE.
These are the RUclips vid's I seek out, lol
I have personally outran a 426 Hemi with a stock 350/300 more than once. It was running perfect and I knew the guy well. My at the time stock '70 Chevelle SS 350/300 was running perfect too.
OBTW....I very briefly owned a mint '68 GTX with a 440 back in 1983. It was nothing to write home about and as a matter of fact, my friend Todd had a stock '68 Dodge Dart 340 "Four Barrel" that blew my doors off in the standing 1/4.
OBTW #2....Stage 1 455 beats all...including a '70 454 LS6. I own both.
I grew up when those cars ruled the streets on the weekends and would love to own either one of those today. Both are bad ass muscle from a time that unfortunately we will never see again.
I agree with you. I’m like you, I was there.
2 of the best cars ever built
1969 ZL1 Camaro in racing trim could cover the quartermile in as little as 10.41 seconds at 128.10 mph. That was with the "stock" Holley 850-cfm carburetor. On April 19, 1969 a Yenko Camaro with factory-installed headers and racing slicks, driven by Ed Hedrick, did the quarter-mile at a drag strip in York, Pa, in 11.94 seconds at 114.5 mph
i love camaros we have a 68 also its really old though and we are planning on fixing it up it used to be my dads hopefully someday it ends up mine! = ]
my father in law had a 69 chevelle ss, 396/375 4 speed, 336 gears, stock with a little tuning ran a 13.2
i love races like these, bringing the past into the present, 2 great muscle cars on an empty road, awesome.
It is indeed, awesome
Mark IV series big block chevrolet engines are some of the best ever to come out of Detroit.......
If the horsepower is correct on these, then they are not stock. The 440 would have 390 max and that would be the 440 6pack (factory rated). The 396 would have a little less than that. Also as far as the two cars, the Challenger weighs more. I love both. I have owned a 70 Charger R/T 440 Magnum (375 hp). My former brother-in-law had a 66 Chevelle SS 396. Like I said, I love both. You one sided guys get over it.
There were three 396s offered 325, 340 and a 375 version!
@@hiltonlouque1504 325,350,375 and some 396s were rated at 425. They were in the 65 Vette and 65 Chevelle SS. Z/16.
Great video! It's sad that MOPAR cars are worth so much now and everyone wants a Charger... Back in the day a true muscle car guy would gladly get rid of his "rust bucket" MOPAR for a Camaro or Firebird.
2 TRANSAM legends going at it... man I wish that racing was still around.
There was a Green copo on my street in 69. Guys name was Bill Young.I heard he still lives in the same house and still has the car. That thing Rocked!
love seeing old musclecars go at it on the streets. i cant even go to the track because every other musclecar runs 10s or lower.
Overall, I'd say the 440 six pack Mopar was the best street/strip engine of any manufacturer,, The three carb setup needed little tweeking and had lots of everything, and the hydraulic cam required no adjustment. And if a street or the race hemi is set up right, given equal cars, weights, driver ability etc, the Hemi will prevail.
I miss those days. Beautiful cars.
We all win, because both cars are great.
Both cars are nice.
I totally agree it doesn't matter the brand or the size of the motor it matters how good of a mechanic you are and how well its built. Even though im more of a ford guy ive seen some impressive stuff from all 3 brands in my life like Gliddens destroked 330 Cleveland cleaning house for years against the bigger chevy motors he knew what he was doing to extract every ounce of power out of the dominant Cleveland. Ray Scardelli's standard stroke 289 running in the 9s in his ford probe who would have thought a small motor like that would smoke either of the cars on this video but if you have the know how and a endless bank account anythings possible. I have a original 396 chevy, 383 and 440 chrysler but hell im looking for a small 283 or 289 myself because its alot more fun winning against a bigger motor and showing them whats under your hood the look on their face is priceless.
For what it's worth, I used to drag race in a '69 Camaro when I was younger. We went up against plenty of Mopars, including hemi's. Never lost to a hemi... not once, not ever. That's the honest truth. We actually had more trouble against a couple of Fords that I can recall, as well as against other Chevy's. I'm not sure what the problem was for the hemi Cudas and such... maybe a bad gearbox design..? They had plenty of horses. They just never seemed to get off the line fast enough to beat us.
Tessmage sorry, but unless you furnish hard proof, you're just another liar.
Two sweet rides, wouldn't mind having either one !
whew now thats a race. both such beautiful cars!
DIOS!!!! SON GENIALES!!
I love classic cars of 70´s.
I have one, but european. It´s a Seat 124 Sport Coupe
yeah!!! CHEVY RULES!!!
I used to race a buddy with a Challenger 440 Six pack. When I first picked up my Camaro, we both thought he would beat me, but it turned out we were wrong.
His Challenger just 'felt' faster than mine, very good suspension on the ol Challengers. (Hemi suspension, rear & trans.)
But my Camaro was just a bit faster. (1970 396ci 375hp) Although the suspensions were crap on the Camaros.
Both were basically stock, except for headers on both of them.
Pretty well ALL American V8 engines are great for making big power..you can even make some very serious power with the deleted AMC V8 like never before, and....even Studebaker!! Yeah, .Some time ago, I built up an old 289 Stude V8, for a guy that owned an little Stude Lark..bored, balanced, cam, homemade try Y headers, bigger 4 Bbl, bit of port work on intake and heads and that thing really wailed!!, talk about DIFFERENT!! lol!,
I honestly didnt care who won that race, it was 2 beautiful American muscle cars goin at it, its like a catfight, you don't care who wins its just awesome to watch
I love chevrolet ♥ :)
I'm from that Era too and my Mopars always had it...I owned A LOT Of them..Now My Drag car is a 67 Camaro..Just because I had ALL the mopars..
um hp and wieght are prob. not the same between the two cars and is that 396 engine after market? were as that challenger is stock?
Both nice muscle cars and worth a hell of alot of money
Camaro: Every third house in town has a nice one in the garage...
Challenger: Awesome classic that turns heads every time it's outside.
Speed is great, but it isn't everything.
Yeah that is true as to what you are saying.Thats why they refer to some cars as sleepers,they look slow and stock on the outside,but have some very serious power under the hood.If you look at the early 60's Maxwedge Mopar and 409 Chevy Byscayne sedans.They looked like something our grandmas normally drive to church,but have a killer bigblock with dualquads under the hood.
Great video
yeah,it would be in a museum! the 12 sec muscle car thing is different.there were a few 12 sec. stompers.1969 1/2 440+6 super bee was a 12.8 car all day long with 8" cheaters.1969 396/375 too Bobby Kolachick did 12.77,12,82,12.80,12.86 at dover with his Nova back in 72'.The Hemi cars would run LOW 12 with just headers( my wifes accord has a header)and a sticky 9" tire.These cars paved the way for what you drive today.Everything has a stainless header, aluminum intake PLUS computer management !
My new dream is to get a 1970 Dodge Challenger SE or R/T with a fuel-injected 440 Magnum or 426 Hemi, put on a supercharger sticking out of the hood (looks awesome) or a shaker hood, do a ton of machine work on the engine to get extra horse power, get an auto transmission with a slap stick shifter, put in anti-sway bar suspension, racing tires, custom rims, a good sound system, new air conditioning, new interior and seats, and paint it orange or yellow with the top painted black.
@winged70bbody2 You're talking about about, a Hemi Dart, Thunderbolt. These were specially built race cars you could not walk into a dealership to buy. They were built specifically and set aside for professional drag racers. It's also documented on the website dedicated to ZL1's that a ZL1 Camaro in full steet trim ran a best of 13.10 on slicks. It was also a purpose built automoble. Your Superbird at 101 mph can run an absolute best 13.4 et. Plug the number in the TCI Racing Calculator.
Awesome vid, thanks for posting!
I didn't knew the 440"s were slower then a 396 !
Depends on what 396 you raced. Some were 325,350,and 375 horse power. A regular 440 was 375 and the 440 six pack was 390.
Copo 9561 is an iron block 427 Camaro. Central Office Production Order was a way a high powered dealer like Yenko could circumvent the 400 cube limit imposed by GM. Kind of a stretch to call these factory muscle cars since you could not walk into just any dealership and order a 427 Camaro. The Regular Production Option cars were what 99.9% of people had. I've got a 1969 Super Stock Magazine with a test of the Yenko. Its was in the 13's out of the box, 12.6 with tune, open headers and slicks.
true but in the 1980s when hemis and hemi parts were hard to come by a small company manufactured hemi heads for the 440 wedge block. only a handful of the heads were made and theyre very rare and very expensive. if you ever find a set for under $7000 buy them
The Camaro was more probably more like 500HP while he Challenger was bone stock. The 440 would always walk away from a 396 any day of the week, all day and every day. Mopar was KING of the streets back in the day.
I have seen plenty of 350/396 take a hemi, the problem was the hemi was a pain to adjust the carbs to get it to run right and stay that way so they would get them on the first half of the 1/4. 1970 chevelle 454 ss was a little late but spanked a hemi all day in a 1/4..... hemi shines on the top end on a track with long straits is why it did well in nascar accept for the blocks cracking
We're working on a '70 440 six-pack Challenger at our shop right now and we've done several first generation Camaro's, the Camaro is the better car, hands down. The subframe on the Challenger looks like a toothpick compared to the Camaro's.
MY 456x3 c.i. engine runs on solid rocket fuel, and craps ice cubes. Its 9780 HP and runs 3 second quarter miles pulling 13 G's with my uni-tire and 4 tires up front for maximum traction. I typically race the J-79 jet engines, but lately I have been racing 1300hp Civics & Sentras with 12" exhaust and your local Mustangs with the V6. "Your guy's race wars against makes & models is extremely dated" Makes driving these less fun everyday.
Actually the old tri-power setups are a pain, but the new ones were pretty nice.
The only carb with adjustments was the center 2 barrel, the outboard carbs just dumped gas.
I really loved the Corvette setup I had, but the carbs were getting to be junk and I didn't want to buy a new set for the manifold.
I know someone with an original LS6 '71 SS chevelle that can prove you wrong there! Chevrolet 454's were not bad engines at all but the 396 was probably more popular in those days and since I grew up in the '60s I remember quite a few of them.. the Fords, Chevy, Mopar...my dad owned a shop doing a lot of engine work, rebuilds, performance, etc, and the 460 was NOT one of Ford's better engines at all! As for the 289, yes a very popular engine but I'd easily have to pick the Chevy 350 4bolt main!
There's a classic showdown. Winning can come down to gearing.
Hell...of a race
@midnitesquirldog what about the ZL1 aluminum 427 bbc? 560 hp but company rated at about 430hp for the same reason the engine designed to put the camaro into Super Stock compitions
Actually there a lot more than 69 COPO's produced, but only 69 of them in 1969 had the aluminum ZL1. The rest were the iron block 427/425HP L72 motor which was installed by dealers such as Fred Gibb, Nickey Chevrolet and Yenko, among others.
F Body GM's were light. Big Blocks made them quite fast. Challengers were heavy cars. Well built cars. Like the Cuda's ( I had a 70 Cuda ), the 440 Magnum put out 375 Horsepower. Depending on the version of the 396 would tell the tale. Weight matters. This is speaking stockers. Modifications always change the story. Both beautiful cars....
I know on paper it doesn't make sense. But some STOCK 340 six packs can keep up with SOME 440 six packs. It all depends if you got one of the few great running factory engines. And your 454s are heavy as hell compared to the very light 340 my dad's friend's old 340 six pack with a cam can unbelievably run with some hemis. It doesn't make sense, but they pack a huge punch.
@DGKall2010- I'm refering to cars that you could buy back then. The ZL-1 Camaro was built only to legalize the ZL-1 engine for sanctioned racing. About 50 were made. These cars were strippers (no heat , no radio etc) and offered primarily to racers like Grumpy Jenkins and Dick Harrell. A few may have slipped through to the general public. The average Joe couldn't get one. The 11.7 ET you refer to is for a race tuned vehicle. The typical ET of an out of the box ZL-1 was around 13 flat.
good ol 396 big block chevy
There were a limited number of SS 350s made in 1970 according to the dealer. I had that car verfied by my local GM dealer.
The Hemi's dominated Chevy and Ford so much that in 1971 Grumpy Jenkins had to build a VEGA to beat them. Vega's and Pinto's lol. Real race cars.
I love the bowties but, NHRA had to make a new class when Dodge/Hurst released the LO23 Super Stock Hemi Dart in 68. Nobody else could even come close!
I love the Challengers but damn that Camaro kicked its ass! I'm a Chevy guy
@5inthehole
First, the video description says it's a Challenger, not a Charger. Also, it says the CHALLENGER has ~400hp, while the Camaro has 435+, so the Camaro has more power.
Were those cars stock?
@GMARQUIS90 - I have to agree with you on this one. The 427 Cobra was not a built on a production line but you could walk into any Ford dealership and order one. A 427 Cobra off the showroom floor with only the addition of slicks could get it the 12's. Tweaking and tuning of any kind was not reqiured. However, they came with the 427 Side Oiler not the SOHC. The 427 SOHC was never installed in any production Ford.
oooh, a chevy beats a mopar. whats the record now, Mopar 1,000,000,000,000 to chevy 3?
bblazeff1 no i belive it is now chevy 1,000,000,000,001 mopar 0
I thought it was a pre good video clip.
I'm more of a Mopar fan myself,, but i have respect for all brands after they get so old..
So i'll still say congrates to the Camaro, Because they were pretty cool looking cars back in those days aswell.
WOW, I can't believe the Camaro won. I thought the Challenger would have no problem winning.
sweet,i loved the both as long as there is is no mustangs in there
yes the 440 from the factory never came with hemi heads. it was purely an after market bolt on for the factory wedge block.
Now get this right, the 440 was NOT an engine designed for racing, they developed this larger cube engine in '66 for the Chrysler and Imperial, and then in '67, Mopar felt the need to fit this engine into their mid sized offerings. The only differences in the two mills is the 67 440 had slightly different heads, cam and intake from the '66. The 396 was of racing direction, derived from the old 427 "mystery motor" designed in '63. Both engines develop power in different ways. 'NUFF said.
thats what im talking about....pure american muscle!!!
very true. plus the specs on the camaro vary greatly on the internet so its very hard to compare the two. and although i love the new challenger and greatly prefer it to the new camaro, i do think the camaro has a very slightly better power to weight ratio. though with the right driver the challenger can win.
Actually the 440 was a better street engine than the Hemi. That doesn't mean the Hemi was slow. Hemis were a little harder to tune and keep tuned right. With 2 four barrels and dual point distributors, someone would have to know how to keep them tuned right. It is amazing what some of the guys on this thread think they know about cars. The 440 engine is one of the best engines ever built.
OMG!! I will state this AGAIN!!. The only engine developed PRIMARILY for racing by Chrysler was the 426 HEMI. The 396-427 was based on the 427 Z-11 "mystery motor" from '63. VERY MUCH a racing design. Look at a cylinder head on a 383-440 engine. then check out the port design and layout on the 396-454. The Mopar "wedge" big block was never INTENDED to be a race type engine, when they were introduced in the late '50's. BB Chev's and Mopars are very different, in many ways.
@memphiskicksass Youre trying to tell me those 40 year old boats weigh less than a new Z06 vette??
I love this hobby.
Thats what i'm talking about!!! Nothing but good old muscle car racing!!! None of that tuner bullshit!!
It depends on who was driving and what setup each car had under the hood. All that we know is what engine was in each, not what it had for carbs, exhaust, rear end, etc. It looked to me like the Dodge was doing quite well, the Camaro was leading but it still couldn't loose the Challenger.
440 MAGNUM!!!
How did they get a 396 to produce 435+ hp?
Great race, but why is it so hard to have somebody recording at the finish line, so we can know who won?
@GMdrivingMOPARguy they do make about 600 stock at the flywheel. I bought mine from a kid down the road. His dad had owned it for 40 years. when his dad Died I bought it. It was just sitting on a stand. You can buy all the aftermarket stuff to build your own But the fact that I found one that was an original is crazy. It now sits on a stand and I built a procharged 408 for the old ford.
Damn, I still think the 440 sounds better though haha.
weight is always the x-factor. The Camaro is much lighter. Both kick ass cars.
(Hellcat and Demon): “don’t worry, grandpa. We got ya.” 😎😎😎
Your absolutlely right this is how it started, and the world followed. and those are not small blocks
which one wins depends on what transmission and rear end gears you are running .
@carson3007 A 383 is slower than a 340... not the 440, i wonder where you'd take this ?? but for the Hemi...
@DONDIVA1969 yeah that is actually probably around right. i think the quarter ET i was thinking of was with a zl1 camaro that headers and slicks. but im pretty sure around 690 camaros were made with the zl1 engine
@DodgeChallenger426 yep the 440 TNT is just how Chrysler labeled the 375hp 440. The guy who claims a stock one made 475-480hp may have seen a modded 440 with dual quads make that power on a block that was a 440 TNT.
Thank you for mentioning that! Ever heard of the Plymouth Savoy?
The thing about the Cleveland, was the heads, the intake runners were HUGE, properly setup, they breath like you wouldent believe. Actually all built the same, it would be in the same class... except a built 440, will stomp a similiarly built 396..... and im a chevvy guy LOL !
I love to read all the excuses Mopar guys come up with.They never just get beat.
This is where its at. All engine mano-e-mano. The old days where people raced engine vs engine and it was all the skill in who build the better/faster engine. Now people see who paid someone to put the bigger supercharger/turbo/nitrous kit then whine about cubic inches and the need for such power adders. We have all seen a small block chevy beat a big block chevy without the need for a supercharger. Never the less a fine pair of cars here!
They could of been parked and this would still be a great video.
Pretty even cars I'd say. Rock on American Muscle Cars!