thunderclans frankly cult like obsession with firestar while still being violently xenophobic in the same breath is simultaneously the most realistic and unrealistic part about this series.
Nah that's pretty common with human psychology at least. Only remembering the great things of a great figure, forgetting everything that doesn't fit with their pride.
There's a definite 'nation in decline' narrative here. Bramblestar was recently possessed by a tyrant who needed to be removed and now he hasn't recovered and it's so obvious the other Clans can tell. ThunderClan didn't used to be a Clan that had leadership problems. They fixed other Clans' leadership problems. So I think ThunderClan's obsession with their glorified past, embodied by their former leader, is a believable idea with REALLY poor execution.
@@uglyfense7754 i'm really not because the warrior cats books are objectively terribly written and the writers don't even keep a lore bible, they rely on the wiki. it's not assuming the worst for pointing out that any interesting commentary that could be brought from this is 100% not intentional on the authors end. it's just a case of them not paying attention to the things they're writing instead of them trying to tell an interesting narrative or trying to make some sort of statement
My (joking) headcanon is that he’s actually a tortoiseshell like his sister but the ginger spots are, like, on the back of his head and the underside of his tail and everyone has just agreed not to tell him.
@@Moonkitti Is that what does it? I’ve got a black cat and his fur looks super orange when the sun hits him, I thought I just never noticed it when he was a kitten
I headcanon that Firestar really dislikes ThunderClan's obsession with him. Firestar was always humble and chilled out, and only wanted to help the Clans. In StarClan I imagine he's just wondering why TC is so obsessed with him to the point of being cultlike.
I'm sure it's so. Firestar never used his fame for his deeds to earn himself some respect, to manipulate someone or whatever, he wouldn't like such treatment.
Meanwhile in starclan: Firestar: YES LISTEN TO HIM! STOP TALKING ABOUT ME! ALL I DID WAS SAVE THE CLANS! Which apparently isn’t even special anymore!? Talk about bristle frost she isn’t here to be annoyed by it! *root spring appears out of no where because tree powers* Root spring: so you have chosen death?
I really want a conversation with Nightheart and Firestar sometime in the arc. But it's just - Firestar: [entire paragraph about how he never wanted Thunderclan to see him like a god] Nightheart: I WAS RIGHT! Firestar: That wasn't what- You know what? Sure, kid, you're right. Just get the clan to treat me like they treat Eaglewing.
Sort of like small birthmarks that never faded as he got older. I know warrior cats ain’t genetically realistic, but I do know that in the case of rare male calicos/tortoiseshells sometimes it’s just birthmarks that makes male calicos/tortoiseshells look the way they are. So I like the idea that he would have small ginger-looking spots that are probably birthmarks that never faded away.
I feel like Firestar himself wouldn't really appreciate ThunderClan's obsession with bloodlines. Considering his own history. Also edit - Moonkitti spends a bit of the video going over the fact that Nightheart doesn't focus on Firestar's qualities as a cat, just the color of his fur. I would like to make an argument for this: he doesn't KNOW Firestar. He's just heard stories of what he's done. He doesn't know his personality, he doesn't know his quirks, his misgivings. Just stories. So to me it makes sense that he wouldn't focus on a long dead cat's traits just the looks.
i'm so amazed how thunderclan hypes up firestar so much and has a cult like obsession with him yet are still violently xenophobic and spout hatred towards kittypets in the same breath. wild.
Firestar is like an old half broken car that has been slowly getting less and less usable but also has sentimental value and isn’t broken enough to be replaced
It's actually really funny that Hollytuft is named after Hollyleaf, her father's dead sister, when Cinderheart, her mother, was also named after her father's dead sister. I'll be saving that for a fanfiction.
Honestly I wish they had given him a name like Flamegaze or Flamesight or something, since his eyes are actually orange and that actually distinguishes him from Fireheart more than Nightheart does. These books make the weirdest decisions sometimes.
I think the suffix glare could also work for cats who's name's are related to their eye colors. For example I have an oc with blue eyes named Frostglare
to be fair, all cats' eyes are blue when they're kittens, so there's no way they'd know what his eye color was going to be by the time they named him. But it would be good for a name applied to a more grown cat
I swear Firestar has been mentioned more in this series that any other arc since the prophecies begin. Even in the ones he is alive in I swear they never mentioned him this much
Yeah I relistened to the beginning of Hawkwing's Journey and in the scene where Skyclan ancestors are suggesting Skyclan must reunite with the other clans it's all 'but [Firestar]'s sacrifice to get us the gorge will be for nothing' and 'will the clans even help us without [Firestar] being around?' And 'theres no one to save us now that [Firestar] is gone!' With a brief mention of sandstorm lol but still Other cats exist and are important besides Firestar lol
It happens all the time in social structures over time when there are great figures. This especially happens in religious movements. The figure is always more prominent and renowned after death if they did great things than before they died.
It’s funny. I always thought Sparkpelt was named after Firestar. The fire died, all was left was the spark (god Sparkpelt should have been more important in AVOS her name is literally in the prophecy). And then the spark created a flame. I think it’s cute.
the shoehorned "you're just like firestar" problem is so stupid and so funny to me. i loved that iconic bit in TPB where firepaw cringefailed his warrior assessment because he was too busy emoblogging and then blamed his slutty kittypet father for all his problems while running away crying
ok but honestly this isnt that unrealistic. i feel like its a very real thing for people to idolize someone as perfect after they die and conveniently forget that they were human too. this is still an extremely funny comment and tbf this was definitely an author mistake but i dont think its inaccurate to real life
Regarding the -heart suffix, it honestly would have been a stronger case to hate "/Flame/heart" if "heart" was attributed to the bond he had with his grandmother Lilyheart. She received her suffix for carrying the memory of her mother and littermate with her. She and Nightheart had experienced grave loss and could have had their relationship as family and mentor-apprentice written in a way that codified their closeness. That way, the problem stays in "Flame" and not the suffix he shares with his grandmother, who isn't related to Firestar (parents were Sorreltail/Brackenfur).
Hi Moon, I know that we're meant to suggest these on talking videos but I just had the idea here, what if you did a talking video on Lilyheart? There's a good amount to say I think, as she was Twigbranch's foster mother and is Nightheart's grandmother/mentor. She's also experienced so much loss with her sister, mate, and son all dying. I think it would be an interesting video :) Up to you though of course! Also Pita that would be amazing this is a great point.
@@Moonkittihey moon!(im very late)I like to believe nightheart is a calico but doesn’t know because he has ginger on his back leg and white behind his neck
“you’re a descendant of firestar, being a skilled hunter is in your blood!” says sparkpelt, who grew up with alderheart, who was so bad at hunting he became a cat priest instead
I actually like the fact he won’t stop talking about Firestars pelt colour in the fact it implies how little Nightheart knows him as a cat. He’s never admired or wanted to be like him because he barely knows anything about Fire outside of him being seemingly good at everything and without flaws. It feels as though it highlights the fact Firestar was him great grandpa, someone very far from him in a genetic sense.
@@meevins this is exactly how I feel about this I don't own or read any of the books but seeing how people talk about Nightheart and his problem I can't help but think: "damn late-to-the-party much?"
I think something that would have made Nightheart’s arc better would be focusing more on the lack of mentioning his father, who he never met but looks exactly like while they constantly bring up his mother’s family. He’d feel like he’s only being seen as Firestar’s kin, completely ignoring Larksong’s skills and leading to him feeling like no one sees him as more than just related to Firestar. The “flame” part of his name, while chosen by both his parents, was chosen before they knew what any of them would look like so if his dad was still alive he might have had a different name (that’s what he’d believe anyway) but as he doesn’t have his full name yet, he decides that his warrior name would be better so doesn’t properly bring it up. So when he gets the name flameheart, he feels like his dad has been completely erased, so a big part of him has too. When Bramblestar names him Nightheart, he’s happy with the name because while it still relates him to Firestar, it now acknowledges the fact he’s a black cat just like his dad so he feels like the Larksong in him is also being acknowledged at the same time as Firestar, and then making him feel more like the others around him will see him as more than just related to Firestar.
I dunno, maybe Flamesong or Nightsong would have been a better alternative if we're going that route. He would still be legacy named, but it would be someone more important to him, maybe even carry weight. But being a legacy name, would probably still not be good. Anything but Flameheart, to be honest, and Nightheart is only better by a centimeter.
@@VenomQuill I wanted to try base it on what the books already decided to go with so wanted to stick to the name Nightheart But yeah, a change of suffix (?) would be more suitable, probably a full name change to something like Nightsong as you said would fit better
@Shadowfloofster True. I can't comment on the books since I got so fed up, I left just after Power of Three. Anything I bring to the table is ~old news~ or secondhand recounts.
Considering genetics don't even exist in the series to begin with, iam not sure why pelt color is such an instrumental part of storytelling in Warriors.
The worst part of the series retconning the fact that Sparkpelt and Larksong named their children together is that Mothers and Kits article on the website outright saying "maybe if Larksong were still around he'd be able to persuade Sparkpelt to not give her kit such an unfitting name!!" It's very much trying to villainize Sparkpelt for something that was not presented as a problem before all of this.
Nightheart gets a pass on this because there's no reason to think Sparkpelt would tell him about their naming plans but if they work on the website they should know better. Maybe they should have someone there part time whose job is just to read all the books at least once and point things like this out.
Fun fact! Graystripe's comment actually came as a reference to a Kate Cary post I believe on Blogclan while it was still running, in which she said that she'd wanted to give her the name Sparkfire, but the editor's made her change the name to "the most boring name imaginable". Hawkkz video covers this pretty well, about how it feels like Nightheart's whole story stole from Sparkpelt's, probably for the same reason as usual - because she's a she-cat. Pretty insidious the implication there, that Nightheart bares more resemblance as tom to Fireheart, than the granddaughter who looks identical to him and was particularly skilled and gifted at hunting and well liked and all that... Additionally! It really makes it feel like whichever main scripter of these books kinda did just look at "Flame" and realized he was related to Firestar and went with it, rather than thinking of the legacy as a whole when the new arc started. Kinda makes me wish that Nightheart hadn't been so isolated from his clanmates from a relationship perspective, and the whole of the new generation could explore the weight of legacy - it'd be a lot more compelling to see how they'd all handle it. Maybe Hollytuft kills someone too because of the pressure or something! It'd be neat, either way.
I really love that The Most Important Character in this godforsaken book series is an orange. Real orange cats have one single brain cell that all of them share. Firestar would sleep upside down and chew his own tail and you can't convince me otherwise
Yeah I have 4 cats, 2 of which are currently 1 year old and ginger, and boy are they a ruckus. One of em, Sasha, his favorite nap spot is paws straight in front and behind him, tail stretched out, in a straight line as far as he can go in either direction, right in front of the bathroom door.
I can back up the phenomenon of dumb orange cats. One of my cats came from a litter with 2 orange brothers, and they were both delightfully dumb. Like so dumb that they would eat the peanuts I threw on the ground for the squirrels, and they'd run away when the squirrels got too close to them. These guys had access to actual cat food and occasional pieces of meat, mind you... Anyways my cat is not orange and she's also not dumb. There's definitely a correlation there
All they had to do was just have him not like his name cause it doesn't fit him. I don't think we've ever had a cat change their name because they were uncomfortable with it, it'd be neat to see. They didn't have to drag Firestar into it at all. It would've been more interesting if they didn't
@@aaronking2020the whole thing with brightheart wasn’t that she just didn’t like the name or was uncomfortable with it, her original warrior name was intended to be an insult to her injury and reminded her of her traumatic experience.
i 100% agree. i think its really easy in that context to take it as a metaphor for queerness, or really any situation where someone could feel like their identity wasnt understood by the people around them, and i much prefer that reading. i think that could create a much more satisfying conclusion, with Nightheart finally feeling comfortable in his own skin (or fur). being happy and excited to hear other cats use his new name. the conversation with sparkpelt especially would be ironically more meaningful, i think. its unfortunately another example of the writers having a really interesting and complex and nuanced set of ideas and then throwing in something that makes it all weird and meaningless. i feel like we've already had enough bloodline dilemmas (brambleclaw already had like a whole arc about something similar to this). give us our trans allegories dammit
I really feel like it was the combination of Flame AND heart that really set him off and Night mitigated that for him. Even if it was still being named after Firestar, at least it with the prefix "Night" it wouldn't immediately single him out as being named after Firestar even if that was the reason it was given to him. Heart isn't a unique enough suffix to immediately associate him back to Firestar and plenty of his clanmates also have it. Sure the warrior ceremony still stung, and the words relating him to Firestar were still said but it isn't as immediately obvious that his name relates him back to his kin. It's a name he is at least ABLE to make his own. I can see why he was soothed by it. Although in common WC fashion the actual words on the page are so shallow it definitely feels inconsistent, but I have gotten so used to NEEDING to logic my way into making sense of how the cats act that Nightheart excepting his new name happily didn't really bother me, just disappointed me a bit at the surface level writing.
@@Moonkitti Isn’t that the purpose of reading though? To get what we want out of it? I think nighthearts arc, while not what the authors intended, was really open for relatability. So many different people read him so many different ways and I find that interesting. I read him as a kid with past trauma not being able to work through it properly. But as he matured he realized the whole situation and instead of just thinking about himself he thought about the whole situation. Kids by nature- are entirely selfish. Reading into things and being creative is what the fandom is about- we wouldn’t still be reading if we didn’t like them lol. But yeah The book itself is very surface level. And you’re right. As much as we want to read into it we can’t deny what’s on the page. Loved the video
@@jiltedHiraeth we're taking shovels to make depth in the puddle deep narrative, fully within our rights and having fun with it but once the next chunk of narrative arrives it'll still only be another puddle can always dig more depth into it but it won't change the fact it started as a puddle
@@jiltedHiraeth very much agree with this!! while I definitely don't like nightheart himself, I do think he actually isn't written all that badly. I can appreciate how he starts out as a selfish younger cat who doesn't seem to respect others, but eventually grows (mostly) out of that.
I honestly wished he was named Flame-eyes because of his orange eyes that has been used and shown with his insightfulness for the environment around him and blazing fury and passion for himself and the cats he cares about, plus it’s sounds cool lol
Flameglare could probably also work, in the sense that we already had a character named Shadowsight in the previous arc if the writers wanted to be a little more original. The name Flameglare also make me think of characters whose eyes are described as “having a fiery glare” or “there’s a fire reflected in their eyes” or something along those lines. Though I do think Flamesight has a better ring to it.
I think Nightheart is a good representation of a angsty teen, much better then Breezepelt. I’m 18 and he’s pretty damn relatable. He’s impulsive and can be an idiot. He’s one of the most unique characters and that’s why I like him. Many protagonists are boring but he is so different. He’s brash and is shameful, he is angry. Idk I understand the problems people have with him but he’s genuinely fun to read for me. I also think he’s also upset because every cat forgets his father who he looks identical to, Larksong. Everyone is focusing on his great grandfather instead of his own father.
As a fellow fan who really just relies on videos for info, it was quite confusing hearing the craziness of Nightheart. Especially with the fandom being so mixed on him, and truthfully the authors too.
As someone who reads the books I can totally see this. I think the book context is really needed because nightheart’s arc hits different for so many people. For me I like his arc cause I relate it to gifted kid syndrome- which I feel I suffered from as a kid. I appreciated that he had to leave to mature and to come home again. I may be biased but that’s kinda the purpose of literature isn’t it? Relating to what you want to relate to in a story and enjoying it your way. I was someone who just got info from videos before I decided to finish reading the series and boy are my opinions different now after having read them.
poking through tidbits floating around one major issue his arc has is he got gifted half a plot arc that wasn't initially penned for him and the retro fitting hasn't gone well
Hear me out; as a fan who hasn't read past Omen of the Stars, I am gonna put my two sense into this. So Nightheart's problem was about his pelt color....To me, as a mixed person of color, that actually hit me hard. So his father is also a full black cat, so he heavily resembles him rather than Sparkpelt, or any Firestar clones. That is really relatable to mixed race people! In a human sense, Nightheart is biracial, but heavily resembles his black father rather than his ginger mom and relative. He is rejecting the ginger side because they emphasize how it is better than his black side, but Nightheart wants to be proud of his blackness, and wants his ginger(white) side to accept that as well. His name not matching up from birth was symbolic of placing expectations of whiteness onto him. Every time he points out his sister has a little orange, he is pointing out that her skin is slightly lighter than his, but, not really all that much. He is pointing out that he and his sister are black. Mixed. But black. And they are tired of his white side of his family erasing his mixed and black identity. It can be very hard for kids of color to be raised by just their white parent. It doesn't give them a strong sense of their other side, their mixed identity. I know this was a shot in the dark, but as a mixed poc I just saw a narrative that likely wasn't intended by the authors.
I really don't think the authors intended this either, but I wish they had. It would be a nice allegory presented in a fairly obvious way. Would've been a cool message for kids, and really engaging. I just doubt the team has the nuance to write that story... as indicated by this messy arc.
i love this take but theres no way they thought about this. these mfs said being disabled was worse than being dead like 2 years ago i dont think they have nuanced takes on the lives of biracial people 😭
As someone of mixed descent (not black, though) who was adopted into an all-white family, I also had this kind of read on Nightheart. As someone who is trans, I also see him as an allegory for both. His anger and feeling out of place is understandable (not necessarily justified, but understandable) and watching him learn to come to terms with his identity and find his own place in the world independent of a family who did not respect him has been the most relatable, interesting read in Warriors in a long time. Seeing all these big creators shitting on him constantly when he is a young adult with identity issues who just wants to be himself and be loved is literally the worst time I've ever had in this fandom - they all act like he was supposed to instantly be mature as soon as he hit adulthood and he was just supposed to figure out how to cope with no support system he trusted for his issue. Sorrelstripe and Lilyheart WOULD have been understanding. We as readers know this. But Nightheart as a character does not know this OR feel this - and honestly it's not his fault that he has issues trusting family at this point.
@@colorfulchameleon9891 I agree. I don’t think it’s the intention of the authors. But I do think that it’s not entirely messy- I like where the arc is going. Nightheart having to go away to figure out that he AND his family were in the wrong and patch it up was so relatable to me Just sucks that sunbeam’s arc seems to be turning messy. That I can agree with. She’s falling into the she-cat love interest pitfall
I was really annoyed in that scene at the beginning of Sky when Nightheart argues with Sparkpelt and asks her who he offended by changing his name. I was waiting for her to say Larksong, because naming him was one of the last things he managed to do before his death. But *no*. She mentions *Firestar*. Which is ridiculous. I think a big part of Nightheart's argument is specifically being legacy named after Firestar. He doesn't see other names as burdensome because Firestar just eclipses everyone else in his mind. He describes being eager to learn about Larksong from Lilyheart. He seems to feel like Firestar's legacy not only overshadows his own accomplishments, but any legacy he would inherit from Larksong too. I honestly believe he would have been perfectly happy to be named after Larksong (I was hoping his Warrior name would be Flamesong before River). His problem is very specifically Firestar.
I feel it would have been nice to have a scene where Nightheart (Flamepaw at the time) went to other cats, named after fellow dead clanmates and expressed how he felt to get their perspective
I forgot that Nightheart thinks about how lucky Alderheart is to have his role as a medicine cat chosen for him. Alderheart, who literally pleaded not to be forced to become a medicine cat.
I always felt like most of his attention to his pelt color is really him just struggling with his own identity and who he wants to be, but not knowing how to properly put it into words. He latches onto his pelt color because it's something he can actually see rather than something like thoughts and feelings. I feel like that's where is conversation with Jayfeather comes into play. He wants to be his own cat, but isn't quite sure how to go about achieving that. His family's linage is just an easy scapegoat that he can lash out at. At least that's my current interpretation of the whole situation.
I haven't read the books but that's the vibe I got from the snippets and things Moonkitti showed. Feelings big and complicated - fur colour simple. Do we even know if he *likes* the new name or just doesn't want to kick up a fuss about it as it had been changed at his request, for the part he complained about, and he can't really explain why he still doesn't like it?
@@CadanL I haven't fully finished Sky, I'm about halfway through and know very little about the new book, but I can't think of any instances that could imply he doesn't like his new name. It's mostly his family that gets upset by it. My memory isn't always the best and I've been having to read the book off and on due to time, so it's possible I'm forgetting or missing something that would imply he doesn't like the new name
That's an interesting idea, but I feel like if they wanted to go for that they should've had him struggle with the "heart" part of the name as well, or maybe have a conflict where he realizes his name change hasn't really fixed all of his problems
You know what he really makes me think of? He's like a reflection of the part of the fandom that's like "ugghh, why do we have to focus so much on Firestar? He's been around too long, he's way too overrated. He's not even alive anymore and everyone keeps talking about him!" (I don't mean this in a negative way either, these are valid complaints)
Honestly, as a trans person whose deadname was from one of my deceased relatives, I kind of relate to Nightheart with wanting to still keep part of the name. I tried to pick a name as close as possible, disregarding how the name actually made me feel, because I was more concerned with not wanting to disappoint my family by taking away that legacy from them.
oh my god SAME. I just eventually gave up and found a name that makes me happy. Though the funny little coincidence that I ended up with is now I share a name with a DIFFERENT relative lol.
I don't mind his characterization so much because he's a kid. He's petty and tunnel visioned on not being orange, and what I hope is that later on, he'll realize how dumb he was being and regret being so angry at everyone.
I feel like the plotline they wanted would have benefited far more from a character who looks exactly like Firestar but is allergic to attention. Someone who would prefer a thankless role in the clan and is perhaps pressured otherwise. Like, I am imagining a guy who wants to take on the role of Daisy - and the cats around him are all more judgemental than they would be otherwise due to superficial expectations for him and him alone. Maybe the story would then relate to cats in the clan realizing that they are disrespecting Firestar's memory by attributing bloodline so heavily given his roots as a kittypet.
Something I noticed is that Nightheart could've been named for his orange eyes. Yes, his pelt has no ounce of orange in it, but his eyes could very possibly be a very bright orange, similar to Firestar's pelt, or even just straight up fire itself. Even if kittens all have blue eyes at birth and don't open their eyes immediately, Warrior Cats doesn't follow almost any genetic rules, meaning that its very possible he was "Flame" because of his amber eyes, meaning that his pelt argument would be (mostly) irrelevant, especially since Firestar had green eyes. I wish the suffix of his name was addressed better though, I agree that it was lacking
I am one of the fans who doesn't read the books. However, it sounds like the name change was only achievable because it was Bramblestar, Nighthearts favorite relative, doing it. Anyone else mentions Firestar, not even in comparison to Flamepaw, and he gets upset. But his favorite cat doing it, while also somewhat validating his discomfort with the Flame prefix, sounds like a shining compliment. If anyone else that he didn't have such a strong admiration for was the leader and pulled that same name for him, he'd be pissed.
I think the issue he has with his name being Flameheart is the BOTH portions connect him to Firestar. If he had been named Flameshade as a warrior he probably would have been happy with that.
i don't think nightheart is allowed to complain about his name ever like "waa i got named flame even tho i'm a black cat this is the biggest crime ever" when you have a character whos name is literally the in universe version of calling someone an awful, heartless and terrible person: foxheart
I feel like this finally showcases why Im not as much of a fan of Nightheart as most people are It took, what, 3? 4 generations? To finally get this kind of legacy torture, even though you would think there would be more angst revolved around legacy babies several arcs ago. Like I would think Squirrelflight and Leafpool would be more affected by this kind of angst because they are both just like Firestar when he was alive, down to them literally breaking clan expectations to do the right thing
Imagine by ending ASC, the Erin’s decide that Nightheart will learn to appreciate his legacy and let a Twoleg kidnap him just so it can dump him in orange paint before throwing him back out to the Clans
nightheart hated the "flame" part of his name because a woman gave it to him but was fine with the "heart" part because a man gave it to him, its perfectly logical
_"Nobody understands my pain! I'm named after some old weird dude I've never even met and we don't even look anything alike!!"_ Meanwhile Harrybrook is just like "👍"
I took Brackenfur's statement as a reference to his OWN family line, tbh, as Brackenfur and Sorreltail are Nightheart's great grandparents too. Besides the Firestar family, Frostfur's family is pretty extraordinarily important to ThunderClan. Also Nightheart, perhaps your mentor/grandmother is comparing you to, y'know, HER SON who she was shown mourning.
This is such a cool concept for a storyline, so it makes me really sad to see how confused the author's were on whether the concept was on legacy, individual accomplishments, or family.
Not to mention the fact that "heart" doesn't describe him at all It fit Firestar because he was caring and truly loved his clan Nightheart argues with his leader, shows off during his assessment, is constantly rude to squilf and ends up leaving his clan for a mate that he leaves Bramblestar said he named him "heart" because he sees alot of firestars quality in him Looks like Bramblebutt has really lost it
(SPOILERS for Shadow) Nightheart is kinda well, he isn't very considerate of others really - always centered on his own problems. He is written like everything about is his struggles. Sunbeam for example, he's taking advantage of her so he can stay away from ThunderClan. However this ultimately shifts as Nightheart resolves things with his mother, Sparkpelt and sister - now he's regretting his choice to join ShadowClan. I haven't unacknowledged that Nightheart hasn't got a crush on Sunbeam, but it's a crush, nothing more. Nightheart could be interesting if he started acknowledging he's not being so great with attitude. Nightheart has been effected by this "burden" and personally I like to headcanon he has very similar facial and physical features to Firestar - so it kinda makes more sense? Bramblestar has an obsession with Firestar, I'm positive of this and perhaps this irks Nightheart but...gahh.
I really appreciate these talks and deep dives about the Warriors books. When I'm reading the books, it's sometimes hard to see outside the perspective of the main character (especially when it is broken up into 6 parts and I have a terrible memory). This provides a lot of clarity.
I feel like natively, it would have made more sense for cats to try to compare nightheart to larksong. It would make sense for a still grieving sparkpelt to try and project all of larksongs qualities onto flamepaw. And beyond fur color nightheart is also her son. We could have seen character growth naturally from both nightheart and sparkpelt. It would force sparkpelt to truly see the ramifications of the grief that consumed her in squirrelflights hope, and it could allow her and nightheart to bond over their shared loss and maybe get nightheart to have some more empathy because let's be honest... The kid is kid of self absorbed, like outside of his firestar conflict he can never see anything outside of his own situation.
I can understand a lot of the logic here. I can get Sparkpelt naming him Flamekit to honor her ancestor considering that happens all the time with real life people, or maybe the way the sunlight hit him when he was a baby or something made her think of it, idk. And I could understand Bramblestar picking -heart because Firestar was his mentor. Yeah, it kinda sucks to use the equivalent of a high school graduation to have an impromptu memorial for your old teacher/father figure but I get why, it makes sense beyond "Oh, geneaology says he's related to Firestar so let's do that". (Also his uncle is Alder*heart* and he never thought maybe it could also reflect how they both struggled with their apprenticeships and the hope that Flame/Nightheart would also find his place where he can shine in the Clan which would have actually been a really cute take.) Also thanks for this video clarifying some things cause I haven't decided if I want to attempt reading Warriors again and you're one of my big sources of info to stagger along with the plot without reading lol. I might actually try reading this new series.
I think Nightheart is missing the REAL reason everyone compares him to Firestar. They're not saying he should be like him but that they see his QUALITIES in him which is a good thing and it's sensible since he's his great grandfather and his genes and some traits would be passed down to him. And why are they focusing on just Firestar he also has Sandstorms blood in him he's not complaining about her. And Larksong and Sparkpelt chose their names before they were even born. Sparkpelt had no idea Nightheart would be a black cat until she had given birth to him so I think that's why she became upset because she still misses Larksong you can see the hints of it and she's still stuck in her depressed state and Nightheart just changed his name when his dead father and Sparkpelt chose it before he was even born. Sparkpelt probably didn't even name him Flamekit because of his pelt it's not about your pelt color it was most likely named after his orange eyes
Yeah that's what I felt too. I already went off a tangent why I find him such a soggy cardboard of a character, it's just idk someone that struggled with expectations from family and what have y, being vaguely compared positively to some random ancestor was never an issue.
I’m a huge sucker for the headcanon that Nightheart is a sunbleached black cat or simply have orange undertones that mainly just come out in the sun. I know he would have to be older to have the sunbleached tones but I love goofy little designs that don’t completely exist in the real world, like giving Clear Sky cloud like markings or Dovewing wing marks on her back, etc.
As someone who comes from a family with high expectations and future predetermined before I was even in school I really related to the *idea* of NightHeart. I really hate what they did with him. I wish they would have actually done something with it. I wish he would have been angry about the heart suffix. I wish he could have talked with bramblestar about the issue since he went trough a similar thing with tiger star and their supposed to be close. I wish his clan either learned to take him seriously or he had actually stayed in shadowclan where he could be taken seriously. I think he should have stayed there and gotten his name changed letting him feel truly respected and loved as an individual in that clan. I wish his story was more about identity and found family rather than “my pelt is orange” and “I’m sorry I was being rude”. It just feels really invalidating to see a character who mirrors my struggle act the way he does.
if the writers were going for 'im not like this dead cat' it would have been neat to have all of the legacy kids make a fuss about it. Give thunderclan their own teenager/youngest rebellion
sparkpelt: *listing off great cats that have done great things* (might i add that theyre also either red or brown) also sparkpelt: *casually neglecting to talk about anyone related to firestar who isnt his direct ancestor*
Is this considered a talking vid??? Anyways, can you do Cloverfoot next for Talking/Mini-Talking? She's an interesting character and is one of the better ShadowClan cats. She's such a great deputy and has many essential relationships. She is really important to the AVoS - TBC plot, and I love her!
Hes ✨️b l a c k✨️, he deserves a not orange name. Squirrelflight got mad at him when she fully supported millie and daisy. The whole of thunderclan is out of character. edit: ALSO!! SANDSTORM IS THE BETTER HUNTER, NOT FIRESTAR!!
18:10 woah woah woah, can we focus on the most important part here - THORNCLAW RETIRED? I am heartbroken. In all seriousness though, as someone who doesn’t have the time or ability to read any of the books at the moment, and never got past the second arc as a kid in the library (because they were always missing the tail end of the second arc and the start of the third for some reason, like what they had no power of three but all of omen of the stars), I really appreciate Moonkitti’s videos for their summarising of parts of the books. Sometimes it’s almost more fun to have to piece together the story from different people’s interpretations lmao.
how did i get here in 30 seconds i have no idea but yeah its annoying that sparkpelt was robbed so that nightheart could be compared to firestar and have a whole 'oh but im not orange angst'
Now see, Nightheart(or at the time Flamepaw) would've been falling perfectly into Tigerclaw's dark forest thing like Brambleclaw and Lionblaze, or even Tigerheart and Hawkfrost. If they hadn't overdone the dark forest until the great battle we could've had a totally great half villain as our protag. Although in a storyline like that he would've probably replaced Lionblaze (who i did like in that arc but can't stand now personally, but Night would stick to the dark forest til the end), Ivypool (or at least seen as a foil to her; they both know eachother in the dark forest but he doesn't know she's a spy), Tigerheart (perhaps wanting to live up to legacy, similar to Lionblaze, and again stopping in the end), or maybe even Breezepelt (daddy issues even if it's bc his dad is dead rather than neglectful, he could possibly see his mom as neglectful though and be too focused on that pain than seeing her depression and struggles regarding their relationship). He wants to take on Tigerstar's line because he thinks HE can handle it better and make a name, while only Firestar's name overshadows others as the greatest of course he stands a good chance of being a "good" Tigerstar protag. Could also tie in with his adoration for Bramblestar and interest in Shadowclan (altho i haven't read Shadow yet, it seems like his interest entirely lies in Sunbeam but he could pick up more interest in Tawny/Tiger/the rest of Tigerstar's Shadowclan kin in this version). It'd set up an interesting protag redemption, or even a villain protag to the end.
So much would be improved by giving us a little reminder or two in these recent books that ThunderClan doesn't talk about Leafpool having kits the way the Madrigals didn't talk about Bruno. Just some narration in the characters' heads or something. It wouldn't surprise me if Squirrelflight told Alder and Spark that she took in Jay, Lion and their sister, that she raised them and loves them as her own, but not whose they were, so as not to have them asking Leafpool embarrassing questions. The Clan as a whole probably avoids mentioning the fact that their medicine cat had babies out of some sense of 'propriety' or something. I mean, Bluefur needed a RiverClan cat to tell her that Windflight was half-Clan so there's precedent for this. (Also they tell kittens stories from the past but don't make them memorize family trees or anything like that. I bet half the cats couldn't tell you Cloudtail's related to Firestar too.) Ashfur revealed a bunch of dirty laundry to the younger generations when he exiled cats like Graystripe, and the Leafpool-kits. But if we understood the writers were self aware about this, it would actually be a good character moment that Myrtlebloom hasn't managed to make the connection that she's a Firestar descendant. Or maybe she does know and wishes she could openly talk about it.
Bristlekit would have been a really interesting character to give the "people keep comparing me to my namesake" story given the trauma over Bristlefrost being completely gone now. It wouldn't be a "how do I live up to this" story but more of a "I'm my own cat, please stop projecting Bristlefrost onto me because she's gone and I deserve to be myself." Her siblings are also legacy named but she has a unique position even among that. I liked this video and I really like reading Nighthearts chapters. He makes me laugh with how little he thinks things through and how angsty he is. It isn't a bad thing to admit criticisms of things you like though. I think everyone who reads the books wants them to be as good as they can be.
I swo much hate his "i'M nOt OrAnGe" it tells you everything about him. how he can't for the life of him see past the surface level of anything, how he can't put himself in anyoneelses place, how he makes a delusion in his mind and it becomes the most important truth in the universe. He never thought he might've been named after the shape of his tail, the color of his eyes or his temper. Noooo, it's stupid cuz hE's AlL bLaCk.
I think Nightheart's conflict writing would make more sense if they went one of these directions instead: -have there be a massive pressure for him to succeed and overacheive A Lot. Like why aren't you a good warrior like Firestar? Aren't you going to grow up and be deputy someday? Save your clan in a big Starclan ordained quest? Firestar's otherk kin like Lionblaze are living up to this, why can't you? -or have it come from Nightheart's questioning of his privilege: how Firestar's kin are treated differently, how they are in a lot of leadership positions in Thunderclan, etc. And how this makes Nightheart feel like he doesn't exist outside of this and wouldn't be given as much attention or expectations (good or bad) otherwise. Maybe have other cats in the clan resent him for having family in leadership (leader, all the medicine cats, the deputy, most of the temp deputies) and Squirrelflight and/or Bramblestar end up treating him differently to make the clan not think they are using favoritism (this could be done with Nightheart's apprentice exam fail for example, holding him to an unrealistic standard so the clan doesn't think he passed only because his judges were family) Both could lead to the same result of Nightheart falling out with family and wanting and identity for himself, and a new start
Sparkpelt: "Alderheart, Squirrelflight, Brambleclaw, all the way back to-" Flamepaw: "Lemme guess, Firestar?" Sparkpelt: "Pinestar. I was going to say Pinestar."
I’m not saying it 100% is and I certainly don’t mean to say that the authors intended it this way (and if they did it’s handled rather poorly) but Nighthearts focus on his pelt colour gives me vibes of body dysmorphia. His name change being taken so badly by family and the cats convincing him to change it back feels so much like deadnames experience for trans people. Being met with anger that the name their parents chose wasn’t “good enough” and being guilted to change it back. (Specifically the scene of Sparkpelt telling him it’s not to late to go back).
Majority of us just grew up and can't keep up with the books. Story barely evolves and can't keep up with us neither. We are not the core audience anymore, but desperately want to stay. Because we love this edgy feline swamp, it's our home. You and others like you are extremely helpful.
i really wish they had either focused on the bramble/squirrel legacy or larksong’s legacy rather than the firestar thing. i think there are a lot of good ideas and concepts with nightheart’s arc, it’s just that none of them are executed well. if they really wanted to make this a story about dealing with expectations and living up to legacy, sparkpelt could’ve named him after squirrelflight or larksong. naming him after lark would give him the “i never even knew him, why do you continue seeing me as my father rather than myself” or naming him after squilf could be the high expectations because of your prestigious legacy thing. i really think there are a lot of good ideas for nightheart - it’s just buried under poor (misogynistic) execution making him unreasonable and unlikeable.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
thunderclans frankly cult like obsession with firestar while still being violently xenophobic in the same breath is simultaneously the most realistic and unrealistic part about this series.
Nah that's pretty common with human psychology at least. Only remembering the great things of a great figure, forgetting everything that doesn't fit with their pride.
@@Draconicdisciple well yeah i know that i meant more how it's a sign of the writing being awful and inconsistent rather than author intention.
There's a definite 'nation in decline' narrative here. Bramblestar was recently possessed by a tyrant who needed to be removed and now he hasn't recovered and it's so obvious the other Clans can tell. ThunderClan didn't used to be a Clan that had leadership problems. They fixed other Clans' leadership problems. So I think ThunderClan's obsession with their glorified past, embodied by their former leader, is a believable idea with REALLY poor execution.
@@meevins Or you assuming the worst.
@@uglyfense7754 i'm really not because the warrior cats books are objectively terribly written and the writers don't even keep a lore bible, they rely on the wiki. it's not assuming the worst for pointing out that any interesting commentary that could be brought from this is 100% not intentional on the authors end. it's just a case of them not paying attention to the things they're writing instead of them trying to tell an interesting narrative or trying to make some sort of statement
I’ve come to love the idea that Nightheart’s black fur has a rusty orange shine in the sunlight and he just can’t tell.
To be fair, He's gotta be a little older before that starts happening to him. It takes a lot of sunbathing
Omg Moonkitti I love your vidoes!!!!!!!!!!❤❤❤❤❤
My (joking) headcanon is that he’s actually a tortoiseshell like his sister but the ginger spots are, like, on the back of his head and the underside of his tail and everyone has just agreed not to tell him.
@@Moonkitti my black kitty had been sunbleached at a year old! i think if he’s outside sm as a warrior cat it can be likely
@@Moonkitti Is that what does it? I’ve got a black cat and his fur looks super orange when the sun hits him, I thought I just never noticed it when he was a kitten
I headcanon that Firestar really dislikes ThunderClan's obsession with him. Firestar was always humble and chilled out, and only wanted to help the Clans. In StarClan I imagine he's just wondering why TC is so obsessed with him to the point of being cultlike.
I'm sure it's so. Firestar never used his fame for his deeds to earn himself some respect, to manipulate someone or whatever, he wouldn't like such treatment.
Meanwhile in starclan:
Firestar: YES LISTEN TO HIM! STOP TALKING ABOUT ME! ALL I DID WAS SAVE THE CLANS! Which apparently isn’t even special anymore!? Talk about bristle frost she isn’t here to be annoyed by it!
*root spring appears out of no where because tree powers*
Root spring: so you have chosen death?
I really want a conversation with Nightheart and Firestar sometime in the arc. But it's just -
Firestar: [entire paragraph about how he never wanted Thunderclan to see him like a god]
Nightheart: I WAS RIGHT!
Firestar: That wasn't what- You know what? Sure, kid, you're right. Just get the clan to treat me like they treat Eaglewing.
I absolutely love the idea that Nightheart has orange on him, just in spots he can't see, and everyone thinks it's funny to not tell him
I like to think that he has just a big o’ heart shaped spot on his butt he just hasn’t notice yet
Yeah, like a spot on the back of his head or something lmao.
i saw a post that joked about the concept by making the back of his head look like firestars face markings and i think it's beautiful
Sort of like small birthmarks that never faded as he got older. I know warrior cats ain’t genetically realistic, but I do know that in the case of rare male calicos/tortoiseshells sometimes it’s just birthmarks that makes male calicos/tortoiseshells look the way they are. So I like the idea that he would have small ginger-looking spots that are probably birthmarks that never faded away.
Maybe he has spots on the backs of his ears like a wild big cat lol
I feel like Firestar himself wouldn't really appreciate ThunderClan's obsession with bloodlines. Considering his own history.
Also edit - Moonkitti spends a bit of the video going over the fact that Nightheart doesn't focus on Firestar's qualities as a cat, just the color of his fur. I would like to make an argument for this: he doesn't KNOW Firestar. He's just heard stories of what he's done. He doesn't know his personality, he doesn't know his quirks, his misgivings. Just stories. So to me it makes sense that he wouldn't focus on a long dead cat's traits just the looks.
You say that, but the Eren Hunters might decide to write Firestar OOC, for reasons only Starclan (AKA The Writers) know
@@KittyKatty999 Dude, hes LITERALLY a kittypet and they are xenophobic.
@@NoctisTheBogWitch I know that. I'm just saying sometimes characters aren't written in character
i'm so amazed how thunderclan hypes up firestar so much and has a cult like obsession with him yet are still violently xenophobic and spout hatred towards kittypets in the same breath. wild.
The definition of oof
Firestar is like an old half broken car that has been slowly getting less and less usable but also has sentimental value and isn’t broken enough to be replaced
A “Rusty” car
@@Clownin_Lauren LMAOO
I'm not replacing my car it still moves I can drive it I swear
(This is how it feels to have firestar as my only favorite character to this, day)
Firestar's always been a completely broken car that's arrogant and giant hypocrite.
It's actually really funny that Hollytuft is named after Hollyleaf, her father's dead sister, when Cinderheart, her mother, was also named after her father's dead sister. I'll be saving that for a fanfiction.
it's thunderclan tradition at this point to name your kids after your sister or brother.
Molewhisker was named after Poppyfrosts brother Molepaw. I feel that was the first time about the naming related to Kin
I'm confused...oh
@@ElvishTrickster214 brambleclaw, !!!!SPOILERS FOR ATHIEF IN THUNDERCLAN!!!!
Brambleclaw was named claw because of tigerckawstar
@@applesong01this was literally also shown at the beginning of firestars quest
"You certainly come from a line of great cats" --- Brackenfur, his great-grandfather says, possibly talking about himself
Uhhh….
@@Shadowfate93 yeah
Theory accepted
THIS IS HILARIOUS
Honestly I wish they had given him a name like Flamegaze or Flamesight or something, since his eyes are actually orange and that actually distinguishes him from Fireheart more than Nightheart does. These books make the weirdest decisions sometimes.
I hate how the suffix 'gaze' is never used : (
@@foxygrin ikr it sounds so pretty
I think the suffix glare could also work for cats who's name's are related to their eye colors. For example I have an oc with blue eyes named Frostglare
@@imat-rex lol now I'm thinking of the name Flareglare
to be fair, all cats' eyes are blue when they're kittens, so there's no way they'd know what his eye color was going to be by the time they named him. But it would be good for a name applied to a more grown cat
I swear Firestar has been mentioned more in this series that any other arc since the prophecies begin. Even in the ones he is alive in I swear they never mentioned him this much
"We gotta remind everyone this is the same series"
Yeah I relistened to the beginning of Hawkwing's Journey and in the scene where Skyclan ancestors are suggesting Skyclan must reunite with the other clans it's all 'but [Firestar]'s sacrifice to get us the gorge will be for nothing' and 'will the clans even help us without [Firestar] being around?' And 'theres no one to save us now that [Firestar] is gone!'
With a brief mention of sandstorm lol but still
Other cats exist and are important besides Firestar lol
It happens all the time in social structures over time when there are great figures. This especially happens in religious movements. The figure is always more prominent and renowned after death if they did great things than before they died.
just like how they kept bringing up Pinestar in the latest book
@@darryl_z Really ?!
It’s funny. I always thought Sparkpelt was named after Firestar. The fire died, all was left was the spark (god Sparkpelt should have been more important in AVOS her name is literally in the prophecy). And then the spark created a flame. I think it’s cute.
His new name is “Not Orange” and you can’t change my mind
I don't want to 😂
Perfect
"Not Firestar" would be far better. That way everyone will constantly remind him that he is in fact *NOT* Firestar! :3
Come here not orange!
I would love to see Orangestar though... That would be perfect 🤣
the shoehorned "you're just like firestar" problem is so stupid and so funny to me. i loved that iconic bit in TPB where firepaw cringefailed his warrior assessment because he was too busy emoblogging and then blamed his slutty kittypet father for all his problems while running away crying
😂
ok but honestly this isnt that unrealistic. i feel like its a very real thing for people to idolize someone as perfect after they die and conveniently forget that they were human too. this is still an extremely funny comment and tbf this was definitely an author mistake but i dont think its inaccurate to real life
Regarding the -heart suffix, it honestly would have been a stronger case to hate "/Flame/heart" if "heart" was attributed to the bond he had with his grandmother Lilyheart. She received her suffix for carrying the memory of her mother and littermate with her. She and Nightheart had experienced grave loss and could have had their relationship as family and mentor-apprentice written in a way that codified their closeness.
That way, the problem stays in "Flame" and not the suffix he shares with his grandmother, who isn't related to Firestar (parents were Sorreltail/Brackenfur).
This would be nice
Hi Moon, I know that we're meant to suggest these on talking videos but I just had the idea here, what if you did a talking video on Lilyheart? There's a good amount to say I think, as she was Twigbranch's foster mother and is Nightheart's grandmother/mentor. She's also experienced so much loss with her sister, mate, and son all dying. I think it would be an interesting video :) Up to you though of course!
Also Pita that would be amazing this is a great point.
@@Moonkittihey moon!(im very late)I like to believe nightheart is a calico but doesn’t know because he has ginger on his back leg and white behind his neck
“you’re a descendant of firestar, being a skilled hunter is in your blood!” says sparkpelt, who grew up with alderheart, who was so bad at hunting he became a cat priest instead
I actually like the fact he won’t stop talking about Firestars pelt colour in the fact it implies how little Nightheart knows him as a cat. He’s never admired or wanted to be like him because he barely knows anything about Fire outside of him being seemingly good at everything and without flaws. It feels as though it highlights the fact Firestar was him great grandpa, someone very far from him in a genetic sense.
I feel like being compared to firestar and not being treated like their own cat should’ve been sparkpelt’s story, she looks exactly like firestar
or even squirrelflight, i feel like they waited just too long to tell this story as nightheart is pretty divorced from fireheart at this point.
@@meevins exactly!
@@meevins this is exactly how I feel about this I don't own or read any of the books but seeing how people talk about Nightheart and his problem I can't help but think: "damn late-to-the-party much?"
sparkpelt takes pride in her ancestry tho
i think thats why they didn't make her name Sparkfire, or it would have contradicted/stolen Nightheart's arc lol
I think something that would have made Nightheart’s arc better would be focusing more on the lack of mentioning his father, who he never met but looks exactly like while they constantly bring up his mother’s family. He’d feel like he’s only being seen as Firestar’s kin, completely ignoring Larksong’s skills and leading to him feeling like no one sees him as more than just related to Firestar. The “flame” part of his name, while chosen by both his parents, was chosen before they knew what any of them would look like so if his dad was still alive he might have had a different name (that’s what he’d believe anyway) but as he doesn’t have his full name yet, he decides that his warrior name would be better so doesn’t properly bring it up.
So when he gets the name flameheart, he feels like his dad has been completely erased, so a big part of him has too. When Bramblestar names him Nightheart, he’s happy with the name because while it still relates him to Firestar, it now acknowledges the fact he’s a black cat just like his dad so he feels like the Larksong in him is also being acknowledged at the same time as Firestar, and then making him feel more like the others around him will see him as more than just related to Firestar.
That would be cool, maybe then he and Sparkpelt could eventually connect over her missing Larksong and him regretting never getting to meet him
I dunno, maybe Flamesong or Nightsong would have been a better alternative if we're going that route. He would still be legacy named, but it would be someone more important to him, maybe even carry weight. But being a legacy name, would probably still not be good. Anything but Flameheart, to be honest, and Nightheart is only better by a centimeter.
@@VenomQuill I wanted to try base it on what the books already decided to go with so wanted to stick to the name Nightheart
But yeah, a change of suffix (?) would be more suitable, probably a full name change to something like Nightsong as you said would fit better
@Shadowfloofster True. I can't comment on the books since I got so fed up, I left just after Power of Three. Anything I bring to the table is ~old news~ or secondhand recounts.
Considering genetics don't even exist in the series to begin with, iam not sure why pelt color is such an instrumental part of storytelling in Warriors.
There is Tigerheartstar, now we have Nightflameheart
nightflameheart sounds like someone’s oc
I don’t Even bother with Tiger 2’s name, I just call him Heart’Star
The worst part of the series retconning the fact that Sparkpelt and Larksong named their children together is that Mothers and Kits article on the website outright saying "maybe if Larksong were still around he'd be able to persuade Sparkpelt to not give her kit such an unfitting name!!" It's very much trying to villainize Sparkpelt for something that was not presented as a problem before all of this.
Nightheart gets a pass on this because there's no reason to think Sparkpelt would tell him about their naming plans but if they work on the website they should know better. Maybe they should have someone there part time whose job is just to read all the books at least once and point things like this out.
Fun fact! Graystripe's comment actually came as a reference to a Kate Cary post I believe on Blogclan while it was still running, in which she said that she'd wanted to give her the name Sparkfire, but the editor's made her change the name to "the most boring name imaginable". Hawkkz video covers this pretty well, about how it feels like Nightheart's whole story stole from Sparkpelt's, probably for the same reason as usual - because she's a she-cat.
Pretty insidious the implication there, that Nightheart bares more resemblance as tom to Fireheart, than the granddaughter who looks identical to him and was particularly skilled and gifted at hunting and well liked and all that...
Additionally! It really makes it feel like whichever main scripter of these books kinda did just look at "Flame" and realized he was related to Firestar and went with it, rather than thinking of the legacy as a whole when the new arc started. Kinda makes me wish that Nightheart hadn't been so isolated from his clanmates from a relationship perspective, and the whole of the new generation could explore the weight of legacy - it'd be a lot more compelling to see how they'd all handle it. Maybe Hollytuft kills someone too because of the pressure or something! It'd be neat, either way.
I really love that The Most Important Character in this godforsaken book series is an orange. Real orange cats have one single brain cell that all of them share. Firestar would sleep upside down and chew his own tail and you can't convince me otherwise
maybe firestar stole all the orange cats’ braincells and that’s why the rest of them have to share one
Yeah I have 4 cats, 2 of which are currently 1 year old and ginger, and boy are they a ruckus. One of em, Sasha, his favorite nap spot is paws straight in front and behind him, tail stretched out, in a straight line as far as he can go in either direction, right in front of the bathroom door.
I can back up the phenomenon of dumb orange cats. One of my cats came from a litter with 2 orange brothers, and they were both delightfully dumb. Like so dumb that they would eat the peanuts I threw on the ground for the squirrels, and they'd run away when the squirrels got too close to them. These guys had access to actual cat food and occasional pieces of meat, mind you...
Anyways my cat is not orange and she's also not dumb. There's definitely a correlation there
All they had to do was just have him not like his name cause it doesn't fit him. I don't think we've ever had a cat change their name because they were uncomfortable with it, it'd be neat to see. They didn't have to drag Firestar into it at all. It would've been more interesting if they didn't
I agree. Firestar confuses the narrative and introduces points that make this worse.
Bro forgot Brightheart
@@aaronking2020the whole thing with brightheart wasn’t that she just didn’t like the name or was uncomfortable with it, her original warrior name was intended to be an insult to her injury and reminded her of her traumatic experience.
i 100% agree. i think its really easy in that context to take it as a metaphor for queerness, or really any situation where someone could feel like their identity wasnt understood by the people around them, and i much prefer that reading. i think that could create a much more satisfying conclusion, with Nightheart finally feeling comfortable in his own skin (or fur). being happy and excited to hear other cats use his new name. the conversation with sparkpelt especially would be ironically more meaningful, i think. its unfortunately another example of the writers having a really interesting and complex and nuanced set of ideas and then throwing in something that makes it all weird and meaningless. i feel like we've already had enough bloodline dilemmas (brambleclaw already had like a whole arc about something similar to this). give us our trans allegories dammit
I really feel like it was the combination of Flame AND heart that really set him off and Night mitigated that for him. Even if it was still being named after Firestar, at least it with the prefix "Night" it wouldn't immediately single him out as being named after Firestar even if that was the reason it was given to him. Heart isn't a unique enough suffix to immediately associate him back to Firestar and plenty of his clanmates also have it. Sure the warrior ceremony still stung, and the words relating him to Firestar were still said but it isn't as immediately obvious that his name relates him back to his kin. It's a name he is at least ABLE to make his own. I can see why he was soothed by it. Although in common WC fashion the actual words on the page are so shallow it definitely feels inconsistent, but I have gotten so used to NEEDING to logic my way into making sense of how the cats act that Nightheart excepting his new name happily didn't really bother me, just disappointed me a bit at the surface level writing.
The problem is that while we can make all the excuses we want, what's on the page is all we actually have
@@Moonkitti Isn’t that the purpose of reading though? To get what we want out of it? I think nighthearts arc, while not what the authors intended, was really open for relatability. So many different people read him so many different ways and I find that interesting.
I read him as a kid with past trauma not being able to work through it properly. But as he matured he realized the whole situation and instead of just thinking about himself he thought about the whole situation. Kids by nature- are entirely selfish. Reading into things and being creative is what the fandom is about- we wouldn’t still be reading if we didn’t like them lol.
But yeah
The book itself is very surface level. And you’re right. As much as we want to read into it we can’t deny what’s on the page.
Loved the video
@@jiltedHiraeth we're taking shovels to make depth in the puddle deep narrative, fully within our rights and having fun with it but once the next chunk of narrative arrives it'll still only be another puddle
can always dig more depth into it but it won't change the fact it started as a puddle
@@prcervi yeah that’s totally fair and you make a point
@@jiltedHiraeth very much agree with this!! while I definitely don't like nightheart himself, I do think he actually isn't written all that badly. I can appreciate how he starts out as a selfish younger cat who doesn't seem to respect others, but eventually grows (mostly) out of that.
i love nightheart because all of his problems are so unreasonable
Idk, his family proves that its a genuine issue constantly.
Hes a silly child
i love him because he steals a chicken from a fair and a frog jumps into his face.
@@beelunder8433 peak character
They aren’t unreasonable though
Nightheart is actually just a traditional namer. That’s why he cares so much about prefix = appearance and suffix = skills.
Warrior Cats is the king of "great ideas with terrible execution". Also doubles as regent of "missed potential".
I honestly wished he was named Flame-eyes because of his orange eyes that has been used and shown with his insightfulness for the environment around him and blazing fury and passion for himself and the cats he cares about, plus it’s sounds cool lol
Flamesight also works! And fits with his.. unconsolable anger in the books. One mught say he’s seeing fire..
@@pillowmoment I love that!!!
Flameglare could probably also work, in the sense that we already had a character named Shadowsight in the previous arc if the writers wanted to be a little more original. The name Flameglare also make me think of characters whose eyes are described as “having a fiery glare” or “there’s a fire reflected in their eyes” or something along those lines. Though I do think Flamesight has a better ring to it.
Seriously, everything would be solved if someone looked at him and said "Bro your eyes are orange-" Dude forgot eye color exists/hj
@@starstorm1267 That’s a good one! I don’t think I’ve heard any characters with a -glare suffix yet and it sounds very cool
I think Nightheart is a good representation of a angsty teen, much better then Breezepelt. I’m 18 and he’s pretty damn relatable. He’s impulsive and can be an idiot. He’s one of the most unique characters and that’s why I like him. Many protagonists are boring but he is so different. He’s brash and is shameful, he is angry. Idk I understand the problems people have with him but he’s genuinely fun to read for me. I also think he’s also upset because every cat forgets his father who he looks identical to, Larksong. Everyone is focusing on his great grandfather instead of his own father.
I completely agree with you!
Thank you for making and helping me realize that he is in fact NOT ORANGE. I really appreciated this knowledge and will always treasure it.
As a fellow fan who really just relies on videos for info, it was quite confusing hearing the craziness of Nightheart. Especially with the fandom being so mixed on him, and truthfully the authors too.
As someone who reads the books I can totally see this. I think the book context is really needed because nightheart’s arc hits different for so many people. For me I like his arc cause I relate it to gifted kid syndrome- which I feel I suffered from as a kid. I appreciated that he had to leave to mature and to come home again. I may be biased but that’s kinda the purpose of literature isn’t it? Relating to what you want to relate to in a story and enjoying it your way.
I was someone who just got info from videos before I decided to finish reading the series and boy are my opinions different now after having read them.
I think people just forget that Nightheart is a young, emotional, and impulsive teenager. His irrational actions, words, and emotions make sense.
poking through tidbits floating around one major issue his arc has is he got gifted half a plot arc that wasn't initially penned for him and the retro fitting hasn't gone well
Hear me out; as a fan who hasn't read past Omen of the Stars, I am gonna put my two sense into this. So Nightheart's problem was about his pelt color....To me, as a mixed person of color, that actually hit me hard. So his father is also a full black cat, so he heavily resembles him rather than Sparkpelt, or any Firestar clones. That is really relatable to mixed race people! In a human sense, Nightheart is biracial, but heavily resembles his black father rather than his ginger mom and relative. He is rejecting the ginger side because they emphasize how it is better than his black side, but Nightheart wants to be proud of his blackness, and wants his ginger(white) side to accept that as well.
His name not matching up from birth was symbolic of placing expectations of whiteness onto him. Every time he points out his sister has a little orange, he is pointing out that her skin is slightly lighter than his, but, not really all that much. He is pointing out that he and his sister are black. Mixed. But black. And they are tired of his white side of his family erasing his mixed and black identity. It can be very hard for kids of color to be raised by just their white parent. It doesn't give them a strong sense of their other side, their mixed identity.
I know this was a shot in the dark, but as a mixed poc I just saw a narrative that likely wasn't intended by the authors.
I'm not currently reading the series but I ABSOLUTLEY LOVE this take
I really don't think the authors intended this either, but I wish they had. It would be a nice allegory presented in a fairly obvious way. Would've been a cool message for kids, and really engaging.
I just doubt the team has the nuance to write that story... as indicated by this messy arc.
i love this take but theres no way they thought about this. these mfs said being disabled was worse than being dead like 2 years ago i dont think they have nuanced takes on the lives of biracial people 😭
As someone of mixed descent (not black, though) who was adopted into an all-white family, I also had this kind of read on Nightheart. As someone who is trans, I also see him as an allegory for both. His anger and feeling out of place is understandable (not necessarily justified, but understandable) and watching him learn to come to terms with his identity and find his own place in the world independent of a family who did not respect him has been the most relatable, interesting read in Warriors in a long time. Seeing all these big creators shitting on him constantly when he is a young adult with identity issues who just wants to be himself and be loved is literally the worst time I've ever had in this fandom - they all act like he was supposed to instantly be mature as soon as he hit adulthood and he was just supposed to figure out how to cope with no support system he trusted for his issue. Sorrelstripe and Lilyheart WOULD have been understanding. We as readers know this. But Nightheart as a character does not know this OR feel this - and honestly it's not his fault that he has issues trusting family at this point.
@@colorfulchameleon9891 I agree. I don’t think it’s the intention of the authors. But I do think that it’s not entirely messy-
I like where the arc is going. Nightheart having to go away to figure out that he AND his family were in the wrong and patch it up was so relatable to me
Just sucks that sunbeam’s arc seems to be turning messy. That I can agree with. She’s falling into the she-cat love interest pitfall
I was really annoyed in that scene at the beginning of Sky when Nightheart argues with Sparkpelt and asks her who he offended by changing his name. I was waiting for her to say Larksong, because naming him was one of the last things he managed to do before his death.
But *no*. She mentions *Firestar*. Which is ridiculous.
I think a big part of Nightheart's argument is specifically being legacy named after Firestar. He doesn't see other names as burdensome because Firestar just eclipses everyone else in his mind. He describes being eager to learn about Larksong from Lilyheart. He seems to feel like Firestar's legacy not only overshadows his own accomplishments, but any legacy he would inherit from Larksong too.
I honestly believe he would have been perfectly happy to be named after Larksong (I was hoping his Warrior name would be Flamesong before River). His problem is very specifically Firestar.
His pelt may not be orange, but his eyes are. I like to hc that he was named for his eye color, like Heathertail.
I actually love that idea. Like his eyes are the color of flames or something.
I feel it would have been nice to have a scene where Nightheart (Flamepaw at the time) went to other cats, named after fellow dead clanmates and expressed how he felt to get their perspective
I agree. I want him to have a moment with Bristlekit. Both the cats they were named after saved the clans
And there’s Holly’Tuft, and his aunt Cinder’Heart
Someone that nobody seems to remember is Spireclaw, who is also Sunbeam’s brother
I forgot that Nightheart thinks about how lucky Alderheart is to have his role as a medicine cat chosen for him. Alderheart, who literally pleaded not to be forced to become a medicine cat.
This is a good video and you are right to have made it.
i never expected a video called "not orange" to be 30 minutes long
I always felt like most of his attention to his pelt color is really him just struggling with his own identity and who he wants to be, but not knowing how to properly put it into words. He latches onto his pelt color because it's something he can actually see rather than something like thoughts and feelings. I feel like that's where is conversation with Jayfeather comes into play. He wants to be his own cat, but isn't quite sure how to go about achieving that. His family's linage is just an easy scapegoat that he can lash out at. At least that's my current interpretation of the whole situation.
Agreed
I haven't read the books but that's the vibe I got from the snippets and things Moonkitti showed. Feelings big and complicated - fur colour simple.
Do we even know if he *likes* the new name or just doesn't want to kick up a fuss about it as it had been changed at his request, for the part he complained about, and he can't really explain why he still doesn't like it?
@@CadanL I haven't fully finished Sky, I'm about halfway through and know very little about the new book, but I can't think of any instances that could imply he doesn't like his new name. It's mostly his family that gets upset by it. My memory isn't always the best and I've been having to read the book off and on due to time, so it's possible I'm forgetting or missing something that would imply he doesn't like the new name
That's an interesting idea, but I feel like if they wanted to go for that they should've had him struggle with the "heart" part of the name as well, or maybe have a conflict where he realizes his name change hasn't really fixed all of his problems
You know what he really makes me think of? He's like a reflection of the part of the fandom that's like "ugghh, why do we have to focus so much on Firestar? He's been around too long, he's way too overrated. He's not even alive anymore and everyone keeps talking about him!" (I don't mean this in a negative way either, these are valid complaints)
it does kinda feel like the authors subtweeting the fandom
Honestly, as a trans person whose deadname was from one of my deceased relatives, I kind of relate to Nightheart with wanting to still keep part of the name. I tried to pick a name as close as possible, disregarding how the name actually made me feel, because I was more concerned with not wanting to disappoint my family by taking away that legacy from them.
She addresses this but im assuming this comment was made before you finished the video.
@@SS-op9wt ik she does address it i was just giving my 2 cents lol
@dinofelis druid looking back at it my reply came off really snotty for no reason, I'm sorry. It's good to hear multiple perspectives for this subject
YWN.
oh my god SAME. I just eventually gave up and found a name that makes me happy. Though the funny little coincidence that I ended up with is now I share a name with a DIFFERENT relative lol.
I love the passive aggressiveness of making the background orange so when Nightheart isn’t coloured in he’s orange
I don't mind his characterization so much because he's a kid. He's petty and tunnel visioned on not being orange, and what I hope is that later on, he'll realize how dumb he was being and regret being so angry at everyone.
I think he has in the current most recent book. I appreciate the arc about kids being rash and naive
@@jiltedHiraeth I'm just starting the new book, so that's a relief to know lol
And that's exactly what he's done now! :D
Agreed! He's pretty much done that now, which is nice to know because I was afraid they weren't going in that direction lol
Chronologically, he was an apprentice for an entire arc and was born before Broken Code.
I kinda wish bramblestar had named him flameeyes instead just so he could go "....oh yeah I guess my eyes ARE orange"
XD
I feel like the plotline they wanted would have benefited far more from a character who looks exactly like Firestar but is allergic to attention. Someone who would prefer a thankless role in the clan and is perhaps pressured otherwise. Like, I am imagining a guy who wants to take on the role of Daisy - and the cats around him are all more judgemental than they would be otherwise due to superficial expectations for him and him alone. Maybe the story would then relate to cats in the clan realizing that they are disrespecting Firestar's memory by attributing bloodline so heavily given his roots as a kittypet.
Something I noticed is that Nightheart could've been named for his orange eyes. Yes, his pelt has no ounce of orange in it, but his eyes could very possibly be a very bright orange, similar to Firestar's pelt, or even just straight up fire itself. Even if kittens all have blue eyes at birth and don't open their eyes immediately, Warrior Cats doesn't follow almost any genetic rules, meaning that its very possible he was "Flame" because of his amber eyes, meaning that his pelt argument would be (mostly) irrelevant, especially since Firestar had green eyes. I wish the suffix of his name was addressed better though, I agree that it was lacking
I am one of the fans who doesn't read the books. However, it sounds like the name change was only achievable because it was Bramblestar, Nighthearts favorite relative, doing it. Anyone else mentions Firestar, not even in comparison to Flamepaw, and he gets upset. But his favorite cat doing it, while also somewhat validating his discomfort with the Flame prefix, sounds like a shining compliment. If anyone else that he didn't have such a strong admiration for was the leader and pulled that same name for him, he'd be pissed.
It is nice that his Grandfather listened to him and allowed the name change.
I think the issue he has with his name being Flameheart is the BOTH portions connect him to Firestar. If he had been named Flameshade as a warrior he probably would have been happy with that.
Bramblestar named him -heart in revenge for Firestar giving him -claw
i don't think nightheart is allowed to complain about his name ever like "waa i got named flame even tho i'm a black cat this is the biggest crime ever" when you have a character whos name is literally the in universe version of calling someone an awful, heartless and terrible person: foxheart
I feel like this finally showcases why Im not as much of a fan of Nightheart as most people are
It took, what, 3? 4 generations? To finally get this kind of legacy torture, even though you would think there would be more angst revolved around legacy babies several arcs ago.
Like I would think Squirrelflight and Leafpool would be more affected by this kind of angst because they are both just like Firestar when he was alive, down to them literally breaking clan expectations to do the right thing
Imagine by ending ASC, the Erin’s decide that Nightheart will learn to appreciate his legacy and let a Twoleg kidnap him just so it can dump him in orange paint before throwing him back out to the Clans
nightheart hated the "flame" part of his name because a woman gave it to him but was fine with the "heart" part because a man gave it to him, its perfectly logical
But the name Flameheart was given to him by a man and he didn't like that one
you're reaching
@@nataliecastro8586 its call "joking"
@@leomorris7573 my bad have a nice day
_"Nobody understands my pain! I'm named after some old weird dude I've never even met and we don't even look anything alike!!"_
Meanwhile Harrybrook is just like "👍"
I took Brackenfur's statement as a reference to his OWN family line, tbh, as Brackenfur and Sorreltail are Nightheart's great grandparents too. Besides the Firestar family, Frostfur's family is pretty extraordinarily important to ThunderClan.
Also Nightheart, perhaps your mentor/grandmother is comparing you to, y'know, HER SON who she was shown mourning.
I love the idea that hes so mad that he has "No orange" but he has bright orange eyes and no one wants to tell him
Flamepaw/NightHeart ignores the whole possibility of being named after his eyes- being amber.
This is such a cool concept for a storyline, so it makes me really sad to see how confused the author's were on whether the concept was on legacy, individual accomplishments, or family.
I'm glad other people also think that Spotfur's name is ridiculous lol
I like to think that nightheart looks exactly like firestar, but he's just black
Same face and all, perfect copy, but different colour
Not to mention the fact that "heart" doesn't describe him at all
It fit Firestar because he was caring and truly loved his clan
Nightheart argues with his leader, shows off during his assessment, is constantly rude to squilf and ends up leaving his clan for a mate that he leaves
Bramblestar said he named him "heart" because he sees alot of firestars quality in him
Looks like Bramblebutt has really lost it
(SPOILERS for Shadow)
Nightheart is kinda well, he isn't very considerate of others really - always centered on his own problems. He is written like everything about is his struggles. Sunbeam for example, he's taking advantage of her so he can stay away from ThunderClan. However this ultimately shifts as Nightheart resolves things with his mother, Sparkpelt and sister - now he's regretting his choice to join ShadowClan. I haven't unacknowledged that Nightheart hasn't got a crush on Sunbeam, but it's a crush, nothing more. Nightheart could be interesting if he started acknowledging he's not being so great with attitude. Nightheart has been effected by this "burden" and personally I like to headcanon he has very similar facial and physical features to Firestar - so it kinda makes more sense? Bramblestar has an obsession with Firestar, I'm positive of this and perhaps this irks Nightheart but...gahh.
I really appreciate these talks and deep dives about the Warriors books. When I'm reading the books, it's sometimes hard to see outside the perspective of the main character (especially when it is broken up into 6 parts and I have a terrible memory). This provides a lot of clarity.
The cats really need to find new things to name their children, in general.
I like Nightheart. Don't understand why people dislike him.
"Not orange" *proceeds to make the whole video aesthetic orange*
Lol😂
I feel like natively, it would have made more sense for cats to try to compare nightheart to larksong. It would make sense for a still grieving sparkpelt to try and project all of larksongs qualities onto flamepaw. And beyond fur color nightheart is also her son. We could have seen character growth naturally from both nightheart and sparkpelt. It would force sparkpelt to truly see the ramifications of the grief that consumed her in squirrelflights hope, and it could allow her and nightheart to bond over their shared loss and maybe get nightheart to have some more empathy because let's be honest... The kid is kid of self absorbed, like outside of his firestar conflict he can never see anything outside of his own situation.
I can understand a lot of the logic here. I can get Sparkpelt naming him Flamekit to honor her ancestor considering that happens all the time with real life people, or maybe the way the sunlight hit him when he was a baby or something made her think of it, idk. And I could understand Bramblestar picking -heart because Firestar was his mentor. Yeah, it kinda sucks to use the equivalent of a high school graduation to have an impromptu memorial for your old teacher/father figure but I get why, it makes sense beyond "Oh, geneaology says he's related to Firestar so let's do that". (Also his uncle is Alder*heart* and he never thought maybe it could also reflect how they both struggled with their apprenticeships and the hope that Flame/Nightheart would also find his place where he can shine in the Clan which would have actually been a really cute take.)
Also thanks for this video clarifying some things cause I haven't decided if I want to attempt reading Warriors again and you're one of my big sources of info to stagger along with the plot without reading lol. I might actually try reading this new series.
not orange, was never orange, was never gonna be orange
As someone who hasn't read a starless clan and who did get some misconceptions about Nightheart, this video is nice.
I think Nightheart is missing the REAL reason everyone compares him to Firestar. They're not saying he should be like him but that they see his QUALITIES in him which is a good thing and it's sensible since he's his great grandfather and his genes and some traits would be passed down to him. And why are they focusing on just Firestar he also has Sandstorms blood in him he's not complaining about her. And Larksong and Sparkpelt chose their names before they were even born. Sparkpelt had no idea Nightheart would be a black cat until she had given birth to him so I think that's why she became upset because she still misses Larksong you can see the hints of it and she's still stuck in her depressed state and Nightheart just changed his name when his dead father and Sparkpelt chose it before he was even born. Sparkpelt probably didn't even name him Flamekit because of his pelt it's not about your pelt color it was most likely named after his orange eyes
Yeah that's what I felt too.
I already went off a tangent why I find him such a soggy cardboard of a character, it's just idk someone that struggled with expectations from family and what have y, being vaguely compared positively to some random ancestor was never an issue.
I’m a huge sucker for the headcanon that Nightheart is a sunbleached black cat or simply have orange undertones that mainly just come out in the sun. I know he would have to be older to have the sunbleached tones but I love goofy little designs that don’t completely exist in the real world, like giving Clear Sky cloud like markings or Dovewing wing marks on her back, etc.
As someone who comes from a family with high expectations and future predetermined before I was even in school I really related to the *idea* of NightHeart. I really hate what they did with him. I wish they would have actually done something with it. I wish he would have been angry about the heart suffix. I wish he could have talked with bramblestar about the issue since he went trough a similar thing with tiger star and their supposed to be close. I wish his clan either learned to take him seriously or he had actually stayed in shadowclan where he could be taken seriously. I think he should have stayed there and gotten his name changed letting him feel truly respected and loved as an individual in that clan. I wish his story was more about identity and found family rather than “my pelt is orange” and “I’m sorry I was being rude”. It just feels really invalidating to see a character who mirrors my struggle act the way he does.
Welcome to Thunderclan where every cat is related to Firestar AND Frostfur
if the writers were going for 'im not like this dead cat' it would have been neat to have all of the legacy kids make a fuss about it. Give thunderclan their own teenager/youngest rebellion
sparkpelt: *listing off great cats that have done great things*
(might i add that theyre also either red or brown)
also sparkpelt: *casually neglecting to talk about anyone related to firestar who isnt his direct ancestor*
5:08 i love the way you draw cats right here specifically they look so silly
Is this considered a talking vid???
Anyways, can you do Cloverfoot next for Talking/Mini-Talking? She's an interesting character and is one of the better ShadowClan cats. She's such a great deputy and has many essential relationships. She is really important to the AVoS - TBC plot, and I love her!
I think that that is a good character for moonlight to talk about!😃
Moonkitti*
Thank you! I'm still new to comments😅
I hope she becomes Cloverstar one day
@Silberlöwe unlikely to happen I don't see any Tigerheartstar heroic sacrifices anytime soon.
Hes ✨️b l a c k✨️, he deserves a not orange name. Squirrelflight got mad at him when she fully supported millie and daisy. The whole of thunderclan is out of character.
edit: ALSO!! SANDSTORM IS THE BETTER HUNTER, NOT FIRESTAR!!
18:10 woah woah woah, can we focus on the most important part here - THORNCLAW RETIRED? I am heartbroken.
In all seriousness though, as someone who doesn’t have the time or ability to read any of the books at the moment, and never got past the second arc as a kid in the library (because they were always missing the tail end of the second arc and the start of the third for some reason, like what they had no power of three but all of omen of the stars), I really appreciate Moonkitti’s videos for their summarising of parts of the books. Sometimes it’s almost more fun to have to piece together the story from different people’s interpretations lmao.
From a story perspective, I like that they’ve made him such a mess and not a classic protagonist.
I am BOraNge the smiley ORANGE
True!
Edit- i enjoy that mooncurl is full gray it’s very funny for some reason
me, watching this knowing nothing of any books past Power Of Three but simply liking Moonkitti content: *I like your words, magic man.*
how did i get here in 30 seconds i have no idea but yeah its annoying that sparkpelt was robbed so that nightheart could be compared to firestar and have a whole 'oh but im not orange angst'
I think it would have been really funny if Nightheart wanted to take after Tigerclaw instead, who is also his great-grandfather
Now see, Nightheart(or at the time Flamepaw) would've been falling perfectly into Tigerclaw's dark forest thing like Brambleclaw and Lionblaze, or even Tigerheart and Hawkfrost. If they hadn't overdone the dark forest until the great battle we could've had a totally great half villain as our protag. Although in a storyline like that he would've probably replaced Lionblaze (who i did like in that arc but can't stand now personally, but Night would stick to the dark forest til the end), Ivypool (or at least seen as a foil to her; they both know eachother in the dark forest but he doesn't know she's a spy), Tigerheart (perhaps wanting to live up to legacy, similar to Lionblaze, and again stopping in the end), or maybe even Breezepelt (daddy issues even if it's bc his dad is dead rather than neglectful, he could possibly see his mom as neglectful though and be too focused on that pain than seeing her depression and struggles regarding their relationship).
He wants to take on Tigerstar's line because he thinks HE can handle it better and make a name, while only Firestar's name overshadows others as the greatest of course he stands a good chance of being a "good" Tigerstar protag. Could also tie in with his adoration for Bramblestar and interest in Shadowclan (altho i haven't read Shadow yet, it seems like his interest entirely lies in Sunbeam but he could pick up more interest in Tawny/Tiger/the rest of Tigerstar's Shadowclan kin in this version). It'd set up an interesting protag redemption, or even a villain protag to the end.
I appreciate this video more than anyone could ever know
conclusion: nightheart hates ed sheeran
I love moon kittis analyses… because it really shows how the writers aren’t even trying to form consistent characters
So much would be improved by giving us a little reminder or two in these recent books that ThunderClan doesn't talk about Leafpool having kits the way the Madrigals didn't talk about Bruno. Just some narration in the characters' heads or something. It wouldn't surprise me if Squirrelflight told Alder and Spark that she took in Jay, Lion and their sister, that she raised them and loves them as her own, but not whose they were, so as not to have them asking Leafpool embarrassing questions. The Clan as a whole probably avoids mentioning the fact that their medicine cat had babies out of some sense of 'propriety' or something. I mean, Bluefur needed a RiverClan cat to tell her that Windflight was half-Clan so there's precedent for this. (Also they tell kittens stories from the past but don't make them memorize family trees or anything like that. I bet half the cats couldn't tell you Cloudtail's related to Firestar too.) Ashfur revealed a bunch of dirty laundry to the younger generations when he exiled cats like Graystripe, and the Leafpool-kits. But if we understood the writers were self aware about this, it would actually be a good character moment that Myrtlebloom hasn't managed to make the connection that she's a Firestar descendant. Or maybe she does know and wishes she could openly talk about it.
Bristlekit would have been a really interesting character to give the "people keep comparing me to my namesake" story given the trauma over Bristlefrost being completely gone now. It wouldn't be a "how do I live up to this" story but more of a "I'm my own cat, please stop projecting Bristlefrost onto me because she's gone and I deserve to be myself." Her siblings are also legacy named but she has a unique position even among that.
I liked this video and I really like reading Nighthearts chapters. He makes me laugh with how little he thinks things through and how angsty he is. It isn't a bad thing to admit criticisms of things you like though. I think everyone who reads the books wants them to be as good as they can be.
I swo much hate his "i'M nOt OrAnGe" it tells you everything about him. how he can't for the life of him see past the surface level of anything, how he can't put himself in anyoneelses place, how he makes a delusion in his mind and it becomes the most important truth in the universe. He never thought he might've been named after the shape of his tail, the color of his eyes or his temper. Noooo, it's stupid cuz hE's AlL bLaCk.
The name Flame had burdened him more then the Heart thing did, that was just icing on the cake as the name flame linked him to firestar
I think Nightheart's conflict writing would make more sense if they went one of these directions instead:
-have there be a massive pressure for him to succeed and overacheive A Lot. Like why aren't you a good warrior like Firestar? Aren't you going to grow up and be deputy someday? Save your clan in a big Starclan ordained quest? Firestar's otherk kin like Lionblaze are living up to this, why can't you?
-or have it come from Nightheart's questioning of his privilege: how Firestar's kin are treated differently, how they are in a lot of leadership positions in Thunderclan, etc. And how this makes Nightheart feel like he doesn't exist outside of this and wouldn't be given as much attention or expectations (good or bad) otherwise. Maybe have other cats in the clan resent him for having family in leadership (leader, all the medicine cats, the deputy, most of the temp deputies) and Squirrelflight and/or Bramblestar end up treating him differently to make the clan not think they are using favoritism (this could be done with Nightheart's apprentice exam fail for example, holding him to an unrealistic standard so the clan doesn't think he passed only because his judges were family)
Both could lead to the same result of Nightheart falling out with family and wanting and identity for himself, and a new start
I just realized all of spark pelts kits names all start with f until night heart changed his
Oh boy not the angsty black kitties
Sparkpelt: "Alderheart, Squirrelflight, Brambleclaw, all the way back to-"
Flamepaw: "Lemme guess, Firestar?"
Sparkpelt: "Pinestar. I was going to say Pinestar."
the fact that you misspelled sparkpelt only makes this better tbh
@@BugsyBugYT I feel so silly for that, thank you.
I’m not saying it 100% is and I certainly don’t mean to say that the authors intended it this way (and if they did it’s handled rather poorly) but Nighthearts focus on his pelt colour gives me vibes of body dysmorphia.
His name change being taken so badly by family and the cats convincing him to change it back feels so much like deadnames experience for trans people. Being met with anger that the name their parents chose wasn’t “good enough” and being guilted to change it back. (Specifically the scene of Sparkpelt telling him it’s not to late to go back).
Majority of us just grew up and can't keep up with the books. Story barely evolves and can't keep up with us neither.
We are not the core audience anymore, but desperately want to stay. Because we love this edgy feline swamp, it's our home. You and others like you are extremely helpful.
i really wish they had either focused on the bramble/squirrel legacy or larksong’s legacy rather than the firestar thing. i think there are a lot of good ideas and concepts with nightheart’s arc, it’s just that none of them are executed well. if they really wanted to make this a story about dealing with expectations and living up to legacy, sparkpelt could’ve named him after squirrelflight or larksong. naming him after lark would give him the “i never even knew him, why do you continue seeing me as my father rather than myself” or naming him after squilf could be the high expectations because of your prestigious legacy thing.
i really think there are a lot of good ideas for nightheart - it’s just buried under poor (misogynistic) execution making him unreasonable and unlikeable.