The Reasons Why EV Chargers Ended Up Where They Are & Why We’re Fixing It All Now
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- Опубликовано: 30 май 2024
- Episode 377: Join Francie and Amy Soderquist as they talk about the question us EV drivers and enthusiasts often ask, "why is that charger there instead of here?" and other frequently asked EV charging infrastructure questions mostly about DC fast charging (DCFC). Amy has a background with Electrify America, site acquisition, SEAM Group, and EV charger planning.
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Thank you Amy and Francie for an excellent and informative conversation about EV charging infrastructure! As an EV neophyte I learned a tremendous amount about the “whys” and limitations of the current EV charging infrastructure. I found the discussion of charging speed and the potential impact on operator demand charges and cost/risk very interesting.
Thank you Francis and Amy for the great conversation!
Extremely intelligent
@16:51 That is weird. The energy stations here in Norway have pumps and chargers just a few meters apart under the same roof. Some gas stations have even removed pumps and replaced them with chargers. Both all-in-one like Alpitronic Hyperchargers and dispensers from Kempower.
@22:30 A CPO would not even get a permit to start building here unless the grid operator was ready to do the supply. And if they didn't deliver they (utility) would get crazy daily fines from the government. To be fair the CPOs operate their own substations here because they want 480V AC and the grid operators only use 400V equipment. So all the grid operator has to do is put in the 22kV cables to the CPO substation.
@38:25 That is just sad. I don't know if that is a thing here in the cities, I doubt it, but outside that would never be a thing.
As a former CPO, great episode!!
Thank you for tuning in!
Why former CPO? What put you out of business?
Thank you Francie and Amy for this super intetesting and informative conversation. Starting a three week cross country road trip today. Wish me luck!
Good luck, don’t rely on Electrify America 💩
Solid interview and super informative. Curious to have the utility perspective on an interview such as this to give their point of view.
Me too!!
Great conversation! Site selection seems integral to the DCFC experience but I'm wondering if principals like Amy are now being more selective? To piggyback off the topic of security, there's more to it than just personal safety but also the safety of the hardware. Copper theft and cable cutting is becoming a huge issue. How does a CPO think about vandalism and what can site hosts do to prevent it?
This was very interesting and educational. Thanks!
Responsible for EV charging in a Florida municipality, I was stunned to discover many retail establishments do not want EV charging near their business because it prevents ICE vehicles (90%) parking close to front door.
While I pitched incremental retail business from EV drivers, they feel it reduces revenue. They say, “put the EV chargers far away.”
Fox News brainwashing. I have friends that watch Fox and spew out false things all the time. Sad that most of the broadcasters know exactly what they are doing.
While Nevi seems to only concentrate on interstates, I think its important for chargers to be included in towns also. A majority of my trip from GA to vacation in Florida is on backroads and a good ways in between interstates. I think it would be good for every town with a population over a certain amount to invest in at least a couple of chargers. Our town can add in a splost fund to cover roads and such, why can't towns just add in a tax for a period to cover installing a few chargers?
The NEVI funding law is federal highway related. The first goal is to “build out” the interstate EV chargers. Read through the GA NEVI plan that’s listed online. There are additional AFC planed in each state on designated back roads.
NEVI plan in WI includes most of the major highways not just interstates
Some states have proactively planned and were building out statewide networks of EV charging infrastructure even before NEVI. Colorado developed a plan in 2018 and has been providing grants for rural communities to add DC fast chargers. Some states are doing next to nothing.
@@FiddleMaker63 Georgia talks a big game but hasn't shown much. I see what they have planned for NEVI, and even talked to the head of the Georgia Power team at a charger a couple of years ago. Not much has changed in their progress.
Need chargers in tourist destinations. EA already has most interstates covered. I just hate backtracking to the interstate to charge. Back roads are good is they are in tourist towns. Usually I don’t travel more than 150 miles on the back roads at a time so it usually isn’t an issue. Ideally chargers on the interstate are placed where the major travelled backroad meets the interstate
58:00 100% agree! At least here in Colorado every NEVI presentation seems to be run by people who have never fast charged an EV. Even the EV Colorado social media folks from the state post pictures of cars charging with J1772 when talking about fast chargers, doesn't instill much confidence
With EVs being 7% of new cars and mainly the techies own them generally EVs owners are not the same demographic as those in politics.
Good to see this topic covered here. Thanks Francie and Amy
Quite informative! Thank you Francie and Amy.
Excellent topic. Very informative
Great podcast. Amy gave a lot of info on what goes into the process of finding a location for EV chargers.
Sonic
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I'm hoping you can get someone on the podcast that can really explain demand charges
Demand time is 6-9 pm when everybody gets home from work hits light switches grab’s sommin out of drive throws in microwave an grabs th remote - p am demand time cost more for energy
Fridge
It sounds like more communication is needed to the public. If a charging station is just waiting for power but otherwise appears to be open, I would expect to see signs communicating that to people. If a charging station operator had to agree to derate their chargers in order to open up sooner, then they should not label 350 kw capable chargers as 350 unless or until they can actually deliver 350 kw.
I would like to see electronic signs that advertise the prices and speeds, similar to gas stations showing prices for different grades/types of fuel. The sign could be updated throughout the day to reflect and communicate different time of use rates too, if that's applicable. I know a lot of this can just be controlled through the app, but I think signs like this would help to start to educate the general public and improve communication overall.
The C Store concept is pretty tried and true for travelers.... Charging times will be going down very fast so a 15-20 minute stop will be pretty common. I think EA should go with collaboration with C Stores like Circle K is doing. Also, a canopy would be real nice...Nice content thanks.
As a municipality eager for more DC fast chargers, I’m stunned to discover EA doesn’t obtain the easement at the front end of site acquisition . Starting it later delays construction start.
Of course, we really don’t know when easement negotiations start, but it seems to take much too long. Maybe new legislation is needed to streamline the process or we will never have sufficient infrastructure.
Likely need to agree financial terms for that site first, after getting OK that power can be gotten in at reasonable cost. Before going through all the required paperwork, then it only takes one party, to go slow, for the whole the process to grind to a halt.
A question not asked is why EV charging is only located along Interstates and none is along US or state highways, which carry more traffic in total than the interstates do. This leaves 250-300 mile gaps north-south and in some place east-west creating gaps that cannot be done since charging is only available on the Interstates
I have asked that question to authorities and answer they give is phase 1 priority is interstate highway system so the public can travel nationwide. Phase 2 is intrastate with NEVI and other funding. Tesla and other operators are already doing some intrastate highways, but surely not enough.
I guess no one in the US drives north-south because that’s where the problems lie. Here in Oklahoma it’s 250-300 miles from I-40 up to I-70, not doable in most Teslas or any other EV for that matter. With no north-south Interstates between I-25 and I-29/35 the middle of the country is a no-go north south. Tesla has put a few Superchargers along US 287 between Denver and Dallas but needs several more to fill in the gaps. That’s the only non-Interstate highway in this part of the country they have worked on.@@johnpoldo8817
I agree. The US Routes need some attention there is trip I do for vacation (Nashville, TN area to Branson, MO area) that I requires me to add about 200 miles to follow interstates when US 60 would be perfect, but it's impossible as there is no chargers along it.
There's more drivers of all types along interstate highways, which translates into more charger usage and a better chance at breaking even. On roads with less traffic, the minimum threshold for percent of all vehicles that need to be EVs to make the charger economically viable increases.
Still, there has been some progress in the area, and I can think of several rural EV charger locations in my state that did not exist even two years ago. But, it has a long way to go.
I'll note that in rural towns where it is not economically feasible to offer DC fast charger, even level 2 is still far better than nothing. I've been on trips to rural areas before where, on the way back, I've needed 30 minutes on a level 2 to reach the nearest DC fast charger. It may be slow, but a 30-minute delay on a several-hour long drive is not the end of the world, much better than without the level 2, where the entire trip would have simply been infeasible.
@@ab-tf5fl I'm not talking about rural towns themselves, even though there are plenty of those with very large populations, even 100,000+ population that do not have a charging site available. I"m talking about US and State highways, that in some stretches carry just as much traffic as an Interstate, 4-lane highways the same as Interstates, where there is nothing. Level 2 just doesn't cut it, no one is going to sit for hours to get enough charge to make it to the next Interstate highway. Across Oklahoma on I-40 there is a DCFC every 30-40 miles right now on the western half, very well served, but the latest round of NEVI funding adds 3 more sites. Those sites could be placed on high-traffic US or State highways away from the Interstate and do some real good at expanding charging availability, but nope. It will be years before more funding is available and by then even more people will be avoiding purchasing an EV because it is 250 miles to the next charger and they find their car might only go 150 miles in the wintertime.
Not having watched the video yet, I just think level 2 charging should be everywhere that cars are parked for 2 or more hours.... Now let's see what the video reveals!
We 👏 need 👏 more 👏 curbside charging!
Yes, that really nice, BUT who is going to pay for it? Owners of parking spaces won’t pay for the charger, won’t pay for electricity, maintenance, and in many cases don’t want it because space is reserved for EVs, turning away ICE customers.
Ubiquitous level 2 sounds good at first. But, the more I think about it, the more I feel like it's not viable. Level 2 at commercial properties tends to cost far more than level 2 at home due to 1) more wiring needed to reach the chargers, 2) the cost of digging up and replacing pavement in the parking lot to run conduit underneath it, 3) the need for more heavy-duty equipment, since it's out in the open all day and subject to use/abuse by the general public, 4) theft/vandalism being more of a problem.
There's also the problem that for many businesses, customers the chargers being into the store is just too insignificant to justify the investment. Take a movie theater, for example. Even if the movie theatre has chargers and you lack access to home charging, you're not going to go see a movie you don't care to see, just because you can charger your car in the theater parking lot. Similarly, if there is a movie you do want to see, you're not going to choose a theater farther away over a theater that's closer to home, just because the farther-away theater has chargers (e.g. driving an extra 30 minutes round trip, simply to avoid 20 minutes of sitting and waiting for the car to charge just doesn't make sense).
Now, that's not to say there aren't any businesses where only level makes business sense. I think anywhere that customers spend the entire night - hotels, apartments, AirBnb rental homes - I think offering level 2 as an amenity will indeed make a big difference in attracting EV drivers as customers. But, that's only because 1) you're there all night, and can pick up a very big charge, and 2) If one place doesn't offer charging, there are lots of close-by competitors who hopefully do, making it easier to switch.
@@ab-tf5fl You make some good points on weaknesses of level 2 charging, primarily when not at a location for a long time. I wouldn’t plug in anywhere unless parked for more than an hour and preferably over 3 hrs. Often pavement isn’t cut due to tunneling equipment. Good lighting mitigates theft & vandalism. One CPO, It’s Electric, loans you the detachable cable to reduce vandalism.
There are so many places where level 2 away from home makes good sense: downtown areas and shopping malls where people work; recreational areas; train/bus station parking lots; sports stadiums; beach or lake parking; or anywhere your vehicle resides for 3+ hrs.
@@johnpoldo8817 she must work mainly in Cali. Unless you’re in a major city there is plenty of parking except for peek holiday shopping. I also prefer charging to be at the back or middle of the lots. I don’t want ICE cars using the spot because it is close. Target usually does it right by being in the middle of the lot. Not going go to be iced but still close enough
Francie keep up with great work making great podcasts 😊❤
This was very interesting. Thanks for the behind the scene 🎬 conversation
Thank you for this information. I learned what a ZEV state was and much more. Seems like a miracle that there are any CCS charging stations. Amy was a wonderful guest.
Thanks for this video explains a lot of what’s going on in my province of Canada too.
Not nearly enough emphasis is being put on filling in charging deserts. All of the focus is on “corridors” (Interstate highways) and urban areas with no thought to travel off the beaten path. I know of scenic routes in the intermountain west where you can travel for 500 miles with no DC fast charging. I understand that some of those locations might not be profitable, but people won't buy EVs if they can't go where they want to go.
Totally agree… I wonder who’s going to be the leading CPO that will be filling in the gaps.
Great interview!
23:00 There's an EA site in Phoenix that's been waiting for a transformer for 2 years now, or near enough. haha
Meanwhile Tesla opened a 100 stall station just down the road? Is it magic or they’re just more competent?
@@conrado800 Everyone knows Tesla. And has brand recognition that people want. EA is unknown unless you have an EV. I was amazed taking to a WAWA rep about adding in chargers. They didn’t know there were non-Tesla chargers. And this guy has had 100s of superchargers installed!
I live in the Missouri and drive an EV truck that I bought so I could have an EV and tow a boat. Ordered it almost 3 years ago and got it about 6 months ago. In those 3 years I haven't seen any change to the overall number of fast charging stations available outside of the two major cities (St. Louis and Kansas City). I feel like I should have seen some improvement in the number of available charging stations even if there is a long period between the planning and building of these stations. Francis Energy claims they are creating a network of fast chargers every 50 miles in the midwest but definitely not there yet.
Learned so much. I had no idea how many hurdles there are. Gonna be a long road ahead. Opportunity ahead?
Optimus will patrol Chargin stations in th future adding to safety
I hate to say it but the end of this conversation made me think about all the anti-ev people talking about how the grid cant handle the loads of charging. a meme going around recently about how you are being told to turn down your a/c and plug in your car? (I pointed out to one person that A/C usage is higher in the day and car charging is higher at night)
So how do the utilities manage to get enough energy and infrastructure and resources to make public chargers viable? I did see a great talk at a data conference 2 years ago where an electrical engineer from my local utility was talking about combing data to find issues caused by solar power - because since solar comes in as dc and generators come in as ac they have to 'match' them - i dont remember the details any more - but I remember him saying he wants to solve this problem because the power company needs to support solar. I assume they feel teh same about evs! The electricity rates where I am are actually quite low, and my power company already has a diversity of power sources, but anyways, this is my question - what will it take to get the grids and suppliers ready? (again thinking of a small county I was in a meeting with who said that they outlawed solar panels to save green space, and they cant move their processes into the cloud because they dont have the bandwidth . . . this is a low income area . . . back to the equity question . . . )
Why not just build charging stations like gas stations? With tall signs advertising price and speed, roof, lighting, convenience store etc?
Batteries can easily offset demand charges . Use th grid to charge batteries in series . Charge electric vehicles in parallel ( much needed amps)
I love this conversation and we need to go deeper into this topic. However, my comment slash topic that I feel needs to be discussed EV rentals. I've noticed a rise in EV rentals. You would think that this would be a good thing but it's not. People are being forced to rent EVs at car rental places or dealerships and then they're not properly educated about how to use them. Especially charging them. Many of these places say just come back here and charge the car. But, that is usually inconvenient. When I talk to these people at the chargers I try to be helpful but, many times they are at the wrong type of charger, they don't want to download the app and/or pulled up to a level 2 charger and didn't want to hang out for hours to charge. They then end up going somewhere else. Some of these people really shouldn't be in an EV because where they live or where they are going. This situation seems to be a surefire way to turn off people from considering an EV. I'm aware many have had good experiences. This just reminds me of that Seinfeld episode at the Car rental place when Seinfeld reserved a car and when he got there they didn't hold the car for him.
Unless you are an experienced EV owner, you should NEVER rent an EV while on vacation or a business trip. You don’t know the area or charging locations and have no charging experience. Undoubtedly, you are in a hurry to do business or see sites on vacation, leaving zero time for charging.
Since many rental companies have an excess supply of EVs, an experienced EV driver can get a fabulous rental price. I surely did.
@@johnpoldo8817 the last person I talked to that was forced to take an EV had just dropped their car off at the dealership for repairs. The person lived out in the country no where near public charging and didn't have a way to charge at home.
@@chris55top That is awful and unacceptable. I live near Hertz headquarters and followed their EV nightmare. In addition to buying too many EVs to pump up the stock, Hertz poorly trained rental associates on charging locations and techniques. Every rental should have come with a map showing charging locations within a 100 mile radius. Anyone without EV experience and on a business trip or vacation should be encouraged not to rent an EV unless they had confirmed charging.
Great podcast and very informative and entertaining but you gals can tell me if this question is related or relevant because I have a few questions I understand that the ev infrastructure is behind in the USA except Tesla because china and Europe have the support of their utilities and their government and United States government is delaying the ev adoption because they make more money in gas and oil ? And last question I think the biggest problem is that why evgo charge point and electrify America have a lot charging not working is because is either they don't have the money or employees working on the site ? Because I have watched a lot RUclips videos people always have problems with a charger and usually they only have 1 or 2 350 kw and 1 or 2 150 kw so think it's more important to focus more on their existing charger because it doesn't matter if they put a lot of new charging site and half of them are not working for a long time so hopefully United States can catch up but I doubt it because they need support from the government
“You can’t have no solar farm for charaties”what was I thinking ?……………… oh yes I can -Erie voice HA
Would'nt the installation of battery back up help balance the utility demand and reduce high time of use charges.
Pull through or bust! Don’t stall us!
46:02 Thanks for answer if any CPO is profitable!! As a former CPO= of cause Not! The CAPEX and OPEX are to high.
Why hasn't the franchising model been adopted to accelerate role out and spread risk? I know the business case development alone is daunting.
This conversation is primarily about DCFC which is needed for road trips beyond the range of your EV. Sadly, I think many people use them even when within their home territory as too many manufacturers have offered free charging as bonus selling point and subsequently abuse of DCFCing when not necessary to complete a long journey. I believe that ubiquitous level 2 charging can help alleviate this problem.
Meanwhile, considering power needs and demand charges, perhaps V2G at large parking lots, where parked EVs could share portion of their power, could be a future answer to this concern. There is a saying that most cars sit idle for 90% of the time, why not make them a useful sitting asset?!
I use dcfc in my home area because my apartment refuses to install level 2 and my job doesnt have it
Batteries to avoid demand charge? Probably doesn't pay for the cost of the battery.
Batteries aren't just about avoiding demand chargers. It's also about avoid expensive utility upgrades to get high power to the site and the lengthy delays associated with getting the power. Batteries also keep the chargers operational during brief utility outages, and can even be used as a source of backup power for the adjacent business, avoiding the need for an expensive generator.
Jesús u wouldn’t put EA on my CV 😂😂😂
It's amazing how American car manufacturers are completely ignoring the failed CCS charging infrastructure and continue to release new models. Ford and Rivian are the only non Tesla options.
FRANCIE model 3 lease $219/ month. !!! !!!! !!! 🏆
………. Much safer Kyle please
We just bought a Model Y with 0.99% financing! Amazing deal
1st❤🎉
Walmart hasn't been 24 hours since the pandemic. Where have you been?
The point of mentioning the 24/7 bathrooms was to point to why chargers were originally put where they are -- due to amenities like clean, available bathrooms. EA started putting in chargers 2 years prior to the pandemic. Hope that helps.
I'm looking forward to seeing more women installing transformers !!
I have a great idea. Let’s interview the person responsible for the worst charging experience you can find.
Thank God for Tesla… If the EV Revolution depended on Amy, it would be dead.
What a snooze fest… when are you interviewing Blackberry & Sony Betamax?
Quite informative! Thank you Francie and Amy.