I think you're missing the point of this. This is less to do about the infotainment system and more to do with the zonal architecture. Think about the cost cutting approach that Rivian took with Gen 2 by removing 10 ECUs from the vehicle. They went down from 17 to 7. Think about all the ECUs an average VW may have in it. If VW can cut the plathora of ECUs out of each car and replace them with a handful of custom built ECUs, this may be worth $5B to VW. Plus, if some of those new customized ECUs are designed and manufactured by Rivian for the commercial OEM partnerships that is another revenue stream for Rivian. Thinking this is all about the infotainment system and CarPlay is looking at the short game. This is more a long game play by both companies.
I just finished watching the investor day video. At around 3:15:00 into the video RJ talks directly to the fact that this is all about the ECUs and zonal architecture and doesn't include the infotainment layer, the drive units, or the battery systems. This is basically VW moving to a "modern software defined vehicle" architecture.
I think you are missing the point, it’s not about counting ECU reduction, it’s about replacing preprogrammed ECUs attached to components sourced from outside supplier’s. Those ECUs are not changeable by the primary OS. The biggest change is having total control over all systems.
Yeah, Herbert Diess humiliated VW with his friendship with Musk, and his using Tesla and Musk as an example for VW to imitate. One of the reasons he got fired. VW has been screwing it up since.... til now.... maybe.
@@mongo64071 nah the Xpeng cooperation is mainly for the EV platform and only for vehicles build in and for China, however the 800V Xpeng platform could be used in more compact and cost sensitive vehicles in comparison to the Audi Q6 e-tron and Audi A6 e-tron, for instance in an Audi A4 e-tron. It is kinda a hit to the reputation of Audi, especially because they do have the 800V PPE platform, which was co-developed together with Porsche, but they just can't make it work economically in a lower cost vehicle. Not sure if customers would appreciate the Xpeng platform in an Audi A4, probably the reason why there is no official news on this topic for a while now. Xpeng is not famous for their software, especially not for their ADAS. The Rivian cooperation is definitelely for the software and the joined communications architecture and protocols of all the different electronic components and chipsets.
VW is finally waking up to some fundamental truths here. As a technical manager at Bell Labs for twenty years (my first career), we used to bring in the best and brightest engineers and computer science talent in the world. Germans are superb mechanical and electrical engineers, but they were distinctly poor software developers (DNA bound); the sooner they accept that, the better for them. Particularly, in the UI part of s/w development. Rivian may benefit from this partnership (other than $$$) when it’s time to build that factory in Georgia? (Not so sure of that).
You might want to educated yourself a little bit. Just google Jürgen Schmidhuber, Andreas von Bechtolsheim or Karlheinz Brandenburg. I think you're way off. Lagacy auto vs startup software stack is a lot more difficult to answer than purely based on nationality. Just ask Ford.
Really appreciate Jose calling out Rivian/Wassym’s over promising and under delivering. His latest promise is that Gen1 will get phase 1 of the new software by end of June, which is 3 days away. Hope this point/question is raised at investor day later today.
I hope this has something to do with Scout! Why is the Scout rollout taking so loooooong!!! VW is missing a huge opportunity by taking so long to get their sh-t together. Germany needs software people. Period.
Rivian has no choice. They needed the cash to survive. The biggest news to me is a company like VW saw a path to profitability to risk $1-5B. What did Rivian have to give away...
This is especially beneficial for Rivian because they need the money. VW Group is a global company and their big problem in the EV field is not software, but ignoring entire market segments and customers. The main issues are battery packaging, thermo management,DC fast charging, 22kW AC charging and other little things where the VW group lags behind the Koreans or French because it is unable to offer them in an affordable price range or in some cases even at all. The billion spent don't address that because Rivian doesn't have the know-how. Also, if we are only talking about the infotainment part of the software, it seems to me that you are simply ignoring the fact that Rivian is highly specialized and experienced for North America only. They don't need to test the user interface (voice assistance) for dozens of languages with different scripts as a manufacturer like VW group needs to. That's why Rivian can do things fast because they ignore over 95% of the global population with their current products. The situation is similar with hardware, where they have never developed/designed anything for safety standards and requirements outside of North America. At this point, it looks like VW will just burn another not-so-small amount of money because Rivian is not economically stable and would have been out of business long ago without the Amazon deal.
You didn’t really touch on zonal architecture which is a stated reason for this. Software changes are key for this as well. I’ve been surprised how little the financial analysts know about the industry. Many seemed completely unaware of the Gen 2 changes and the cost savings for both material and labor costs. Good podcast, the best conversation on this subject I’ve heard so far.
Good news. Rivian gives me a Volvo vibe and i love it. No matter how technologically superior Tesla might be, Elon and Teslafanbois make me very much not want a Tesla, at all
Good story. Rivian - gets better purchasing power which means profits come sooner!🎉VW - their old CEO was right about a lot. They also get better software and hardware. Dealers shouldn't decide what comes to the US market (customer online deposits should). Porsche/Audi- has better charging because they have much higher profit margins/vehicle, they can afford spend. Apple CP/Android Auto -takes all the profits on data and automakers want that for themselves 💰!!!!
This is potentially great for VW Group. If they can incorporate the software & hardware design from Rivian, they can address their biggest weakness in the EV space while cutting cost, weight & unnecessary complexity making them more competitive with the Chinese onslaught. Hopefully, the cash infusion can get Rivian to profitability.
It is not being discussed as much, but there is a massive benefit for Rivian. If VW invests 5 billion over the next several years in Rivian, do you think VW will allow Rivian to go bankrupt? The other aspect is what has not yet been announced, I.e., Rivian will likely have access to some of VW's parts bin. If this comes to fruition, it could allow Rivian to reach profitability on its R1 and, more specifically, R2 and R3 sooner than even Rivian could have imagined. This VW marriage is the secret sauce.
When VW uses so many different suppliers, there’s no guarantee that Rivian will be able to make their software work for VW. Also, it would be nice to know how many parts Rivian uses that are also used by VW. Will there be volume leverage for cost savings? The jury is definitely still out on how successful this relationship will actually be. PS I reserved R2 in the first 5 minutes it was available. I genuinely hope Rivian succeeds, but it’s still going to be an uphill battle to profitability
honestly, i would have made a deal.. i give you software, and you (VW) factory is willing to produce X amount of Rivian R3 and R2 cars in Germany for the EU market, for a low cost... cos then Rivian would be spared from importax on their cars..
This is one of the best moves that could VW make, to get Rivian technology, also hoping that Rivian gets VW service network here for the European market. And wishes Rivian R2T for us ❤❤❤❤😂😂?
I totally disagree with Jose. CarPlay and Android Auto offers a fantastic user interface. Vertically integrated software stack is good. However, at the end of the day, my entire life is run off my phone. So not having good integration with my car is a huge negative. I don't think the maps in a Tesla and a Rivian are better then what Google or Apple offer. The only advantage is that the car's navigation system can automatically precondition the battery when traveling to a charger. Ford is rumored to offer that integration soon-ish for CarPlay. That would be interesting. We will have to see how well that integration will work.
I was once in the middle of automotive partnership that fell apart and watched another self-destruct from the sidelines. Take my word for it, German engineers don't like to be told what to do and will gladly unravel any joint venture that doesn't benefit their personal aims. Don't go crying to the CEO because he has bigger problems to solve and will have soon forgotten all about the JV.
Jordan and Jose are missing why many are taken by CarPlay. It’s about the two aspects that have always driven Apple Fans since the first Mac. Consistent software aesthetic design and loyalty to apps. They are less driven by having the latest then they are to the ease of transition from one device to the next. Plus, they have already paid for their apps on the phone. They hate the idea of having to subscribe to a new app (listening GM?).
wonder how this will affect the agreements they have with Amazon and other companies that have signed up with the delivery van production? Ford has made a lot of money out of this agreement as well seeing after-hours share price went up 22% and they still own a small % of Rivan stock - I would be surprised if they have a say in this deal.
The downside is this organization is gonna take a long time before it produces a production ready product. Does it bring vw and rivian to a halt during that year+??
Don't care about the native software. I only want my phone to connect reliably and have CarPlay. For car controls, I want physical buttons/stalks for basic car control and HVAC. Oh, and a goddamned instrument cluster/screen behind the steering wheel in my line of sight. If they can manage that, I'm good.
That native software is what powers the instrument cluster screen. It's also what controls the windows and doors and tailgate and hood and everything else in the car. You care more about the native software than you think. This joint venture has nothing to do with infotainment.
@@brackle-1 My last car was a 2019 VW 35th Anniversary GLI with Autobahn package. I had absolutely no issue with any of the systems you've listed. Tethered Carplay and Google Maps worked great. On the ID4 the only thing people bitched about was the HMI and infotainment, mainly how it was organized and the slow response time. Maybe Rivian can help with that, maybe not.
FYI: I have a 2021 ID.4. I have been getting occasional over-the-air updates over the last year. Not great...but an improvement. I think having Rivian assist them is a great idea. The ID.4 itself is very well made and I've been happy with it. The car needs faster charging and better software.
![Yailin La Mas Viral, @kreizyk.official - Dale 2 (Remix) [Video Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JaYHBzgqz94/mqdefault.jpg)
Let's Interview Kyle about this joint venture. Conspiracies say that he was behind the deal - his 2 fav companies coming together
He always says he reviews cars, not companies. Plus it’s a little pretentious when I hear ‘Out of Spec said it and the company did it’.
I think you're missing the point of this. This is less to do about the infotainment system and more to do with the zonal architecture. Think about the cost cutting approach that Rivian took with Gen 2 by removing 10 ECUs from the vehicle. They went down from 17 to 7. Think about all the ECUs an average VW may have in it. If VW can cut the plathora of ECUs out of each car and replace them with a handful of custom built ECUs, this may be worth $5B to VW. Plus, if some of those new customized ECUs are designed and manufactured by Rivian for the commercial OEM partnerships that is another revenue stream for Rivian.
Thinking this is all about the infotainment system and CarPlay is looking at the short game. This is more a long game play by both companies.
Yep. I don’t think it has anything to do with the infotainment. It’s all about zonal architecture
I just finished watching the investor day video. At around 3:15:00 into the video RJ talks directly to the fact that this is all about the ECUs and zonal architecture and doesn't include the infotainment layer, the drive units, or the battery systems. This is basically VW moving to a "modern software defined vehicle" architecture.
I think you are missing the point, it’s not about counting ECU reduction, it’s about replacing preprogrammed ECUs attached to components sourced from outside supplier’s. Those ECUs are not changeable by the primary OS. The biggest change is having total control over all systems.
@@peteramiri8105yes
Keep in mind, Volkswagen Group is much more then Volkswagen...
This seems like VW is looking for a software lifeline and did not want to partner with Tesla.
Yeah, Herbert Diess humiliated VW with his friendship with Musk, and his using Tesla and Musk as an example for VW to imitate. One of the reasons he got fired. VW has been screwing it up since.... til now.... maybe.
They already invested in xpeng for software lifeline.
@@mongo64071 nah the Xpeng cooperation is mainly for the EV platform and only for vehicles build in and for China, however the 800V Xpeng platform could be used in more compact and cost sensitive vehicles in comparison to the Audi Q6 e-tron and Audi A6 e-tron, for instance in an Audi A4 e-tron. It is kinda a hit to the reputation of Audi, especially because they do have the 800V PPE platform, which was co-developed together with Porsche, but they just can't make it work economically in a lower cost vehicle. Not sure if customers would appreciate the Xpeng platform in an Audi A4, probably the reason why there is no official news on this topic for a while now.
Xpeng is not famous for their software, especially not for their ADAS. The Rivian cooperation is definitelely for the software and the joined communications architecture and protocols of all the different electronic components and chipsets.
They need to bring the new smaller rivian vehicles to Europe, use the vw dealer network and servicing.
VW is finally waking up to some fundamental truths here. As a technical manager at Bell Labs for twenty years (my first career), we used to bring in the best and brightest engineers and computer science talent in the world. Germans are superb mechanical and electrical engineers, but they were distinctly poor software developers (DNA bound); the sooner they accept that, the better for them. Particularly, in the UI part of s/w development. Rivian may benefit from this partnership (other than $$$) when it’s time to build that factory in Georgia? (Not so sure of that).
You might want to educated yourself a little bit. Just google Jürgen Schmidhuber, Andreas von Bechtolsheim or Karlheinz Brandenburg. I think you're way off. Lagacy auto vs startup software stack is a lot more difficult to answer than purely based on nationality. Just ask Ford.
Perfect podcast THATS why ur th BEST. !!!
Really appreciate Jose calling out Rivian/Wassym’s over promising and under delivering. His latest promise is that Gen1 will get phase 1 of the new software by end of June, which is 3 days away. Hope this point/question is raised at investor day later today.
I hope this has something to do with Scout! Why is the Scout rollout taking so loooooong!!! VW is missing a huge opportunity by taking so long to get their sh-t together. Germany needs software people. Period.
Rivian has no choice. They needed the cash to survive. The biggest news to me is a company like VW saw a path to profitability to risk $1-5B. What did Rivian have to give away...
Pretty straightforward, software expertise and zonal architecture.
This is especially beneficial for Rivian because they need the money. VW Group is a global company and their big problem in the EV field is not software, but ignoring entire market segments and customers. The main issues are battery packaging, thermo management,DC fast charging, 22kW AC charging and other little things where the VW group lags behind the Koreans or French because it is unable to offer them in an affordable price range or in some cases even at all.
The billion spent don't address that because Rivian doesn't have the know-how. Also, if we are only talking about the infotainment part of the software, it seems to me that you are simply ignoring the fact that Rivian is highly specialized and experienced for North America only. They don't need to test the user interface (voice assistance) for dozens of languages with different scripts as a manufacturer like VW group needs to. That's why Rivian can do things fast because they ignore over 95% of the global population with their current products. The situation is similar with hardware, where they have never developed/designed anything for safety standards and requirements outside of North America. At this point, it looks like VW will just burn another not-so-small amount of money because Rivian is not economically stable and would have been out of business long ago without the Amazon deal.
You didn’t really touch on zonal architecture which is a stated reason for this. Software changes are key for this as well.
I’ve been surprised how little the financial analysts know about the industry. Many seemed completely unaware of the Gen 2 changes and the cost savings for both material and labor costs.
Good podcast, the best conversation on this subject I’ve heard so far.
Rivian also needs volume to get cost down
I’m still hopeful for the Golf R..3x
Great for both companies
~7:00 Life's too short to put up with software lag. Por dios this is 2024.
I hope Rivian is licensing the software to VW for subscription fees as well.
Good news. Rivian gives me a Volvo vibe and i love it. No matter how technologically superior Tesla might be, Elon and Teslafanbois make me very much not want a Tesla, at all
Good story. Rivian - gets better purchasing power which means profits come sooner!🎉VW - their old CEO was right about a lot. They also get better software and hardware. Dealers shouldn't decide what comes to the US market (customer online deposits should). Porsche/Audi- has better charging because they have much higher profit margins/vehicle, they can afford spend. Apple CP/Android Auto -takes all the profits on data and automakers want that for themselves 💰!!!!
VW own a bit Expeng also
VW are in debt like Toyota
This JV has very little to do with infotainment. Let's stop talking about CarPlay in this context.
It would have been great if VW tossed EA in with the deal. Convert EA to RAN hardware.
So Rivian gets some much needed cash and VW gets the software that works with Superchargers without bowing down to Elon
Throwback to when Mercedes was a Tesla shareholder and gave their interiours to them
No one wanted Fisker, not even for their technology table scraps.
I’m scared to be honest (for Rivian). Listen to Jordan from 13:40 to 17:45…he captures it perfectly
27:00 Jordan: "If this is providing the funding that Rivian needed to build me my R3X so be it, I'm happy." Ditto.
It's simple - VW knows how to build cars and Rivian knows how to do software.
This is potentially great for VW Group. If they can incorporate the software & hardware design from Rivian, they can address their biggest weakness in the EV space while cutting cost, weight & unnecessary complexity making them more competitive with the Chinese onslaught. Hopefully, the cash infusion can get Rivian to profitability.
It is not being discussed as much, but there is a massive benefit for Rivian. If VW invests 5 billion over the next several years in Rivian, do you think VW will allow Rivian to go bankrupt? The other aspect is what has not yet been announced, I.e., Rivian will likely have access to some of VW's parts bin. If this comes to fruition, it could allow Rivian to reach profitability on its R1 and, more specifically, R2 and R3 sooner than even Rivian could have imagined. This VW marriage is the secret sauce.
When VW uses so many different suppliers, there’s no guarantee that Rivian will be able to make their software work for VW. Also, it would be nice to know how many parts Rivian uses that are also used by VW. Will there be volume leverage for cost savings? The jury is definitely still out on how successful this relationship will actually be.
PS I reserved R2 in the first 5 minutes it was available. I genuinely hope Rivian succeeds, but it’s still going to be an uphill battle to profitability
honestly, i would have made a deal.. i give you software, and you (VW) factory is willing to produce X amount of Rivian R3 and R2 cars in Germany for the EU market, for a low cost... cos then Rivian would be spared from importax on their cars..
This is one of the best moves that could VW make, to get Rivian technology, also hoping that Rivian gets VW service network here for the European market. And wishes Rivian R2T for us ❤❤❤❤😂😂?
I totally disagree with Jose. CarPlay and Android Auto offers a fantastic user interface. Vertically integrated software stack is good. However, at the end of the day, my entire life is run off my phone. So not having good integration with my car is a huge negative. I don't think the maps in a Tesla and a Rivian are better then what Google or Apple offer. The only advantage is that the car's navigation system can automatically precondition the battery when traveling to a charger. Ford is rumored to offer that integration soon-ish for CarPlay. That would be interesting. We will have to see how well that integration will work.
I was once in the middle of automotive partnership that fell apart and watched another self-destruct from the sidelines. Take my word for it, German engineers don't like to be told what to do and will gladly unravel any joint venture that doesn't benefit their personal aims. Don't go crying to the CEO because he has bigger problems to solve and will have soon forgotten all about the JV.
Jordan and Jose are missing why many are taken by CarPlay. It’s about the two aspects that have always driven Apple Fans since the first Mac. Consistent software aesthetic design and loyalty to apps. They are less driven by having the latest then they are to the ease of transition from one device to the next. Plus, they have already paid for their apps on the phone. They hate the idea of having to subscribe to a new app (listening GM?).
wonder how this will affect the agreements they have with Amazon and other companies that have signed up with the delivery van production? Ford has made a lot of money out of this agreement as well seeing after-hours share price went up 22% and they still own a small % of Rivan stock - I would be surprised if they have a say in this deal.
Ford trims Rivian stake to a mere 1.15% ownership
The downside is this organization is gonna take a long time before it produces a production ready product. Does it bring vw and rivian to a halt during that year+??
Why would it halt Rivian? It's still up to VW to implement whatever comes out of the JV.
VW Scout woutd be a Rivian R2 competitor. VW's is getting their software together before the Scout is in production.
Scout may very well become R2 based. Wait and see....
Don't care about the native software. I only want my phone to connect reliably and have CarPlay.
For car controls, I want physical buttons/stalks for basic car control and HVAC. Oh, and a goddamned instrument cluster/screen behind the steering wheel in my line of sight.
If they can manage that, I'm good.
That native software is what powers the instrument cluster screen. It's also what controls the windows and doors and tailgate and hood and everything else in the car. You care more about the native software than you think.
This joint venture has nothing to do with infotainment.
@@brackle-1 My last car was a 2019 VW 35th Anniversary GLI with Autobahn package. I had absolutely no issue with any of the systems you've listed. Tethered Carplay and Google Maps worked great.
On the ID4 the only thing people bitched about was the HMI and infotainment, mainly how it was organized and the slow response time. Maybe Rivian can help with that, maybe not.
FYI: I have a 2021 ID.4. I have been getting occasional over-the-air updates over the last year. Not great...but an improvement. I think having Rivian assist them is a great idea. The ID.4 itself is very well made and I've been happy with it. The car needs faster charging and better software.
What happened to "VW.OS" in VAG that was supposed to move most VW software in-house?
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Will a Rivian be built on a VW assembly line? Yes.
Software/CPUs only - not jv manufacturing at this time.
Sugar daddy Amazon is done throwing money down the Rivian black hole and desperate to be an EV company VW steps up for more. 😂