I need your help. The video has only been up for an hour, and there are a ton of great questions. I've been trying to answer them all as best I can, but I'm in the middle of preparing for our tool trip next week. So I need a favor. If you've watched both of our videos, and you see a question you know you can answer (no name-calling, kids.) would you please do so for me? I'll check back in a couple of hours. Thanks!
Good on ya for doing a follow up on our concerns. Most RUclipsrs don't. Most of the same professionals ranters will still attack below though as, well, they know best. Time, and abuse, will tell if these things are any good. We need new tech for higher output batteries in a smaller format factor, but are these new cells going to offer that? Cheers again Rob.
@@realstaceylewis That's how design and engineering works, no? Gasoline is explosive, so they design things like fuel line cut-off mechanisms in cars that kick in when a collision happens. I don't see any problem - necessarily - with designing packs to handle expansion under load and protect against explosion.
@@realstaceylewis Somehow I get the feeling you're not an engineer of any sorts lol. The engineers at Flex and DeWalt have no doubt put extensive work into this new design to make sure it works well. There is immense danger in every technology we use, if you look back in the history books people were livid about the idea of electricity in general. Today it's an absolutely normal thing, and you typically go about your life without ever thinking about getting shocked. Same same
ThermaTech phase change technology, which is already used in Skil, Ego, and Flex batteries is made of regular old antifreeze found in your car, and some silica and graphite particles. These all are pretty fire proof. The coolant in your car doesn't really catch on fire even at high temperatures. In the patent document for this phase change material, the flame retardant properties of the phase change materials were also noted.
DeWalt really messed up their last minute launch in my opinion. Flex are doing things right, not rushing in, and answering the damn questions how it should be. I'm more of a Milwaukee user, but I respect Flex on this one.
Dewalt doesn’t do anything last minute, they take years to develop new tools , new batteries, etc. Not a new gen 2,3,4 every year like Milwaukee. And Flex tools are a joke.
One good thing about pouch batteries is tools like full size plunge router and track saws can make them much more compact. And I wonder if and when will Milwaukee comes out with there own track saw.
I always like to watch videos of @Belts And Boxes on fridays! There's no better way to finish the week and making feel like shopping for new tools! :D Keep up the great work guys! You rocks!!
A phone is small power consumption when it comes to pouch cells. I think the bigger worry is how much power demand from pouch cells could cause explody issues. The Nissan Leaf, a full electric vehicle runs on pouch cells. Each battery (A nissan leaf has 40 of these batteries) contains 4 pouch cells, and I recharge my setup (15 batteries in a 48v configuration) at 60 Amps and have discharged regularly at 140 ah. I have these batteries in a solar storage system I have built and I have had 0 issues with bloating, or even heat issues. Pouch batteries, especially created by well know, reputable manufacturers have a ton of advantage as we will see as this technology matures in the power tool market.
Do you think Dewalt is employing the same protection technology in their batteries? I would imagine so, especially since Dewalts name has a whole lot more credibility to lose than Flex. I’m just wondering why they weren’t more direct in answering the safety concerns. Kudos to Flex for being upfront about it. I guess pretty soon everybody is going to be using these (Except maybe Makita...) . I’m sure there will be hiccups at first but at least Milwaukee will be there in a couple of years to capitalize on everybody else’s mistakes and act like they invented it themselves. Good info B&B crew, thanks.
I've heard rumors that they worked with a third party to develop a gel or paste that insulates the cells. That sounds similar to what Flex has said. However, that's just a rumor and you're getting second hand from me.
I reached out to DeWALT with all of these questions, and brought up the link to Amionx, SAFECORE, and Stanley Black & Decker. They said they would get back with me. That was several days ago. If they do answer these questions in detail, I'll gladly share them with you guys.
@@ToolShow Might be issue with patents, multiple companies coming out with similar products can be a landmine field of potential lawsuits on patent infringement. If Dewalt is working with a 3rd party instead of in-house then they may simply make them not as confident and want to tread lightly and not reveal anything that may get them in trouble for now...
I like the idea of using the flat lithium batteries for my tools, but I’m still not sold on how safe they are. I guess time will tell once they are available to purchase, and we will see if they have issues with fires or explosions.
I'm sure they are safe, but we use drones commercially and have to buy new batteries every year because they swell to the point that the battery cases dont fit properly. We buy new batteries spending over $1000 anually. They are a very highly regarded brand - with a lot to loose. We have never had a fire, but drones dont fly so well when the battery swells and pops out - or no longer fits. So I am going to be one to sit back and let others be the guinea pigs with this new change in tool battery technology. My tools are powerful enough - at least until they come out with something new that requires these new batteries that I cannot live without!
Now I have Flex stacked and normal 24v Flex lithium batteries and I was wondering if the 280watt charger that came with the stacked batteries can be used with both types of batteries?
I'm 100% convinced this is a cost cutting measure.... With everyone racing to make EVs and power storage devices this is a measure to prevent their profit margins from going away as cylindrical battery cells become more scarce and thus more valuable. I'll be stocking up on traditional batteries before the cost per battery get crazy.
You can’t pull anywhere near the power from cell batteries compared to pouch cell. That’s why all the new batteries up the performance of all tool unless it locked my board on tool
Excellent Rob. Grateful for the update. I'm on the hunt for Flex-Tools. I didn't think we could get Flex in New Zealand. To my surprise, I was shown a flex wall sander & vacuum just the other day. Thank you for your Hard work brother. 🙏🏾🖖🏾🌞🤙🏾💚's🔔🏖🔔
We weren’t in any way comparing the batteries performance to those in your cell phone. We are referring to choosing the same company to produce the cells you need for power tools. The cell phone companies have good reason to invest in very good sales, so it made sense for flex do use the same company to build theirs. But their lithium ion pouch cells are significantly different than those found in a phone.
A BMS isn’t going to keep a cell from exploding except from a couple of causes. If there’s a short across the cell or anything else internal then it’s going to vent. If there’s only 10% room for expansion for each cell is the pouch going to rupture given limited space inside to housing? The other thing I’m interested in is the heat dissipation given the cells are stacked. Could be interesting to see what their thermal fluid is like in a finished product. It would be neat if you could get the actual engineers on again to talk some details about this stuff. Don’t get me wrong though, this tech is coming and probably for the better( and cheaper).
All good thoughts. They did say the thermal "material" (I think it's adhesive) does a better job cooling then they currently do on cylindrical cells. They're claiming an improvement on heat management. I'm not educated enough in this space to understand all the different ways it could fail. I'd love to get a third-party engineer to open one up for us. I fell like AvE would do a great job here.
I’m curious as to why they leaked this even though we’re going into the Holiday shopping season, they have kits that just reached store shelves and they mostly don’t offer bare tools?
We can't get Flex in Oz but we get Ego garden tools. They know a thing or two about batteries. Dewalt tools on the other hand and I have lots all seem to run pretty hot as normal. With the heat out here they can get super hot. Battery life isn't great as a result. My mate's 12 Ah on his mitre saw died recently only just out of warranty and these aren't cheap batteries. We probably won't see the new Dewalt ones for ages but it will be interesting to see how they perform in 40C + days.
Thanks, Rob! Looking forward to seeing further developments. I am 0% surprised they are not focused on size/weight -- their tools are powerful, but heavy. D-HANDLE FOR LIFE!!! 🇺🇲
I really hope they are safe from abuse. My iPad battery which is a li ion pouch cell went up in flames 2 days ago and im lucky it was in a place where it didnt damage anything else.
Good question Timothy. That's due to the physical layout of the battery. You know how when you put a AA battery in a device, the contacts are just touching the tip of the battery? That small connection actually limits how much power you can move. The new Pouch design has the wide tabs you can see in our DeWALT video, which can pass far more power at once.
I. So happy flex isn't worrying about compact batteries and is focusing on what matters, performance. Like who in their right mind went 1.7ah is a great idea. Punch that developer in the forehead cause he needs to wakeup.
So when the bad cell is detected the DMS shuts it down which means you no longer have the full amount of Ah. So how are you going to tell when that happens? What happens when the battery swells more than 10% ? When you lose a sell then you lost performance and run time. I guess you will have to buy another battery. Nope, you will have to use the original battery type. So think I will stay with what works they can keep those.
No. When it shuts down the cell, the battery is permanently dead. It's like the crumple zone on your car. It's there to keep you safe in a catastrophic accident, but once it's used, the car is trashed. But remember, Lithium-Ion batteries have a failure rate of less than 1 in a million. You are likely to NEVER take advantage of these safety features. If your battery fails, and expands, it's done. But the technology is in place to make sure you don't burn down your house in the process. ALSO, note that the traditional cells you have NOW, already have the same problem. They can fail too. There's nothing less reliable about this new technology. Assuming you can afford a small price jump, the new ones will give you more power, and longer life. What's not to love?
Can these be stored fully charged? I have LiPo batteries in my DJI drone and you have to discharge them down to 60% if you're not going to be using them soon. The best thing about my Makita cordless tools is that the batteries just sit around fully charged ready to go when I need them. Not like those old NiCad tools I wasted too much money on when they came out.
It’s the chemistry. Stacked/pouches are LiPo cells. If they are punctured, creased, over current, over voltaged, they will burst into flames and spray sparks . Round cell LiFePO4 cells under extremely rare conditions do they catch fire and when they do, they simply just burn. Shoot the Flex stack with a nail gun, but it’s best done on the Fourth of July. Do they make more power? Absolutely. Will they charge more times or last more years, doubtful. More dangerous? You be the judge. Will you find LiPo cells in any commercially available off grid battery system? Nope, not a chance. Likely LiFePO4 chemistry.
First I will disclose I am a Milwaukee guy, but I also used to be a diehard rc truck guy. To my knowledge all the various voltage and amp hour batteries I used in RC were all flat cell; and no matter what I had customized my discharge rates at (very specific to rc cars) or charge rate (probably comparable to a standard charger vs rapid charger vs supercharger) the batteries would eventually balloon and therefore be unsafe to use. Even when I have thrown my father's (who knows how old) 1.5 ah batteries into multiple tools over years I have not seen any "ballooning" Personally I think that says much for the durability and longevity of the standard cylindrical cell batteries used commonly.
Why did dewalt not have these answers to questions from prosumers? I respect flex for being more open but I’ve said it before. If this pouch tech was as good as they said Milwaukee would have launched it. The fact that they haven’t is very interesting. Wait for the high drop tests by you tubers. Flex and dewalt will be loosening their ties then.
What are the weight differences with regular batteries? Other than size and maybe weight, there are no advantages. Durability will be ok as long as the battery case isn't broken. Amp hungry tools will cause heat which will cause cells to puff and increase internal resistance. Not good for battery life but profit margins are probably higher.
Interesting, I've never seen or heard of a Lithium-Ion (non-polymer, that is) pouch cell. Now I really want to find out more! From what I understand, the manufacturer of the dewalt cells Are using LiPo, but with a self sealing gel coat around each cell, and a BMS similar to the Spektrum Smart RC batteries
DeWALT isn't making LiPo cells either. I was wrong about that in the beginning. The use of Polymer in the construction is apparently a "Sony" thing. Sony isn't making their batteries. The gel coat you're referring to is SAFECORE technology from Amionx. I found a ton of fantastic content on the stuff, and asked DeWALT to confirm if they're using it, so I could share it all with you. But I'm still waiting.
@@ToolShow Iiiiiiinnteresting, thanks for the information! Now I need to go down the rabbit hole on these for C ratings and charging rates Edit: also, I can confirm that all power tool batteries can explode, I've "popped" a few NiCd amd NiMh packs over the years 😳 they sound like a .22
@@ToolShow Sorry but unless you can provide a datasheet for these so called non-polymer pouch cells, then they are lipo's. And the use of Polymer isn't a sony thing. I've done some searching and haven't came across any non-polymer type Lithium-ion pouch cells. This Video has been out for 6month, did you hear back from dewalt? If you didn't I doubt you ever will. Also you said flex gets there batteries from the same manufacture as your phone but you didn't say what manufacture. Even the high end phones from samsung, apple, etc had issues with there batteries. And a BMS can't tell if a battery is expanding, failing yes if the bms is good enough. Like most big company's they are blowing smoke and will say what you want to hear.
That is good info for Lithium Ion, keep in mind that most bms is very poorly designed keeping them out of balance and often drain one bank to the point that destroy them.
@@ToolShow Milwaukee high output batteries (21700) has much better protection than their 18650 funny thing is that Bosch has no BMS and they last. Guys often leave them in their truck which hot literally melt them, and cold dropped them beyond repair. I found good practice to take them apart and balance them per bank and let them sit over night, and check them.
Yeah I don't know. I was surprised to see DeWALT make such a big deal, and only have a single tiny battery to show us. This month they're bringing out an enormous 15AH traditional battery, because it's what we want! I couldn't help but speculate that DeWALT simply wanted to be "first", assuming they knew FLEX was working on their own. So they got the first battery done, and launched. But again, I'm just guessing here.
Dewalt has the most powerful tools and the batteries to support them already. A smaller lighter battery makes perfect sense for drills and impact drivers. As a builder this is a great addition to the dewalt line up. And if they make a 4ah and a 12ah that’s all they need. Stationary tools don’t need lighter batteries. Flex tools will not be bought by contractors, they are already invested heavily into dewalt, Makita or Milwaukee, except YTube “ contractors “ who are a joke to any real builder.
So a high discharge rate li-ion puch cell ? LoL i kinda still feel like they’re li-po and they don’t wanna say that....... in regards to the BMS ..... it can’t tell if the battery is swelled up .... there is no way to tell electrically..... also pretty much every Li-po battery in RC models is charged with a balance charger and discharged by an esc with low voltage cutoff......so no the BMS doesn’t play nearly the role they say it does ....other than not being charged above 4,22v and discharged under 3,2ish there is nothing the BMS can prevent from happening if the battery is within its voltage threshold and still swells up.
We all talk about the tool industry but these new cells are going to really revolutionize the laptop industry as well. I'm excited about that - that is unless they already use those cells and the tool industry is catching up. That is a question I would like to know the answer too.
Laptops have VERY different power needs. They don't draw anywhere NEAR the power a grinder would. There are a TON of different types of Lithium-Ion Pouch cells. Each one is designed and engineered for it's specific purpose.
Having dealt with Mac Portables that the batteries swell and expand the case, its a safety feature. However, tampering with them (trying to replace your own) or damaging them can result in a thermal event (not explosion-that is dramatic. More like smoke and ignition). Keeping that close to your crotch, well...that's hot!
@@ToolShow I'm not sure dewalt will respond they very rarely go into detail about there items even with youtubers but who know they may respond I know 99 percent of us dewalt users been asking dewalt to listen to us users for decades they don't normally care about the consumer or there opinions just my honest view Rob
@@AntonioClaudioMichael dewalt doesn’t rush out bad products then next year make it better followed by the next year gen 3 remake it again. They make the best tools once and it takes years before any other company can catch up to them .
We’ve made it more efficient… by making the battery even less efficient… What do you mean if we have 10 pouches 50% of the battery volume will be empty space!? Nooo….
I’m curious to know how much per watt hour these are compared to the others. These can be a little more dense in energy, but just because of the shape. It’s like an iPhone battery, they are made custom for each device. They could have done this years ago, these was probably an innovation from one of the companies making cells, so that they can make these cheaper now, the issue before was these would be much more expensive. They can make the cylindrical cells much cheaper and use the same ones in every battery, this makes them cheap. They are saying this isnt about making them smaller, but more powerful….. I’m pressing X to doubt on that one. Don’t be surprised they told you who makes the cells… any company worth their salt, will tell yo who makes the batteries.
Power advantage is true, it's an inherent advantage they have over cylindrical cells, the issue with pouch batteries are... 1) They're harder to manufacture and get out in large quantities and... 2) They are more vulnerable to damage which brings up multiple safety issues.... Overcoming both was required to bring them into the construction industry... There's just a question of whether they were truly successful and there aren't any lingering issues, especially in terms of safety...
There’s a reason why Tesla only uses battery cells. Heat management is much more difficult in pouch cells and is the reason why Chevy bolts keep going up in flames. Tesla’s newest cell technology is still cylindrical not pouch and that’s for a reason. I have a feeling many of these batteries will have recalls over time.
If your "feeling" is right, multi billion dollar companies will fail. And While that's certainly not out of the realm of possibility, I just don't think it's likely. These guys have all been building power tools and batteries for decades. They know far better than you our I, exactly how they're treated, and how they break. The have ENORMOUS motivation to do extensive testing and over-engineering to make sure these batteries are safe on the jobsite.
@@ToolShow I would trust Tesla’s engineering on batteries than any single tool company. They are the worlds largest producer of batteries and they lead this industry with the innovations in this technology. Potentially in smaller quantities pouch batteries are more stable especially considering their use in phones watches etc. but pouch cells in large quantities have proven to be unstable. If not though having a 2ah the size of a 4 with a high output torque would be great. I welcome the innovation but I think it should at least be considered given the drawbacks already found with pouch cells.
non polymer pouch cell, hmm... you sure? never knew such thing exists, perhaps flex engineers are some other level, guess someone will have to take it apart at some point, ill stick with my old Milwaukee for now
I don't think that's a fair comparison. First of all, not sponsored. I didn't get paid anything for putting this video together. Obviously, FLEX does sponsor our weekly show, but this was simply reporting. DeWALT is a beloved brand around here. We're huge fans, and we have a lot of their fans in our audience. The reason DeWALT's PowerStack videos got pummeled, was because when we asked them what makes them safe, they refused to go into any details. FLEX on the other hand, obviously saw the same videos, and decided the community would want the same answers about THEIR tech. So when I asked, they offered it to me without reservation. It's a good idea. The reality is, I've done a ton of background on the DeWALT PowerStack , and I presented it to them. I asked them if they would confirm what I found, so I could report it and put to rest some of the frustration. They said they'd get back with me, and have yet to do so.
The experience I have with pouch batteries comes from my Apple iPhones and MacBook Pros going back about 10 years now. EVERY SINGLE Apple product I've owned has had to be replaced due to battery swelling. I'm not believing this marketing BS . . . only an established track record has cred with me.
AZ, you're smart enough to know that your personal experience isn't enough to make statistical determination. By your rules, I've owned literally dozens of Apple product, and never had a battery swell. So they're perfect right? The only time it's happend to me, was on a Samsung S7. And did it explode and cause damage? Nope. Their tech shut down the cell, and I got it replaced. That's how this works. And even then, it's very rare for a lithium-ion battery to explode. According to Consumer Reports, Lithium-Ion batterie have a failure rate of less than 1 in a million. And even those that fail, rarely explode and cause damage. You're more likely to get struck by lightning in your lifetime, then have a battery explode. I'm sorry your person experience has been one of mind-bending improbability. That sucks man. But your personal experience is only valuable when it's added to a data set of hundreds of thousands of others. That's what actual research is for.
Samsung makes better cells. Their batteries don't swell nearly as often and their degradation is far lower than apples. They did have a design flaw that caused rare failure in the note 7 but thats the only real hiccup. It depends on the manufacturer a lot. I think even apples newer batteries have been fixed but I'm not 100% sure. They used to have only 80% life left after 1 year of use compared to Samsung 95% after TWO years. Huge difference there. Power tools demand lots more average so hopefully it's all well engineered and they last a long time. Dewalt is boasting twice the lifespan so my hopes are up
I need your help. The video has only been up for an hour, and there are a ton of great questions. I've been trying to answer them all as best I can, but I'm in the middle of preparing for our tool trip next week. So I need a favor. If you've watched both of our videos, and you see a question you know you can answer (no name-calling, kids.) would you please do so for me? I'll check back in a couple of hours. Thanks!
Hold my beer, I got this!
hah! stop throwing tools.... Next thing you know this guy will start telling us to stop drilling stainless steel in high speed. Ridiculous!
Good on ya for doing a follow up on our concerns. Most RUclipsrs don't. Most of the same professionals ranters will still attack below though as, well, they know best. Time, and abuse, will tell if these things are any good. We need new tech for higher output batteries in a smaller format factor, but are these new cells going to offer that? Cheers again Rob.
Thanks bud.
I’m very sure they will. You can cram much more active battery cc’s in a given space when your cells are flat than when they are cylindrical.
I'll stop throwing my tools when you pry them from my cold dead paw!
Woah there buddy. We didn’t mean YOU. Bears do whatever they want. We get that. Would you like to throw one of my tools?
@@realstaceylewis That's how design and engineering works, no? Gasoline is explosive, so they design things like fuel line cut-off mechanisms in cars that kick in when a collision happens. I don't see any problem - necessarily - with designing packs to handle expansion under load and protect against explosion.
Well we wont have to if you are throwing them now will we. LOLOLOLOLOL
@@realstaceylewis Somehow I get the feeling you're not an engineer of any sorts lol.
The engineers at Flex and DeWalt have no doubt put extensive work into this new design to make sure it works well.
There is immense danger in every technology we use, if you look back in the history books people were livid about the idea of electricity in general. Today it's an absolutely normal thing, and you typically go about your life without ever thinking about getting shocked. Same same
Stacey deleted her comments and now we're replying to nothing...
ThermaTech phase change technology, which is already used in Skil, Ego, and Flex batteries is made of regular old antifreeze found in your car, and some silica and graphite particles. These all are pretty fire proof. The coolant in your car doesn't really catch on fire even at high temperatures. In the patent document for this phase change material, the flame retardant properties of the phase change materials were also noted.
DeWalt really messed up their last minute launch in my opinion. Flex are doing things right, not rushing in, and answering the damn questions how it should be. I'm more of a Milwaukee user, but I respect Flex on this one.
DeWalt tends to play their cards closer to the vest. Power stack had been leaked for few months, but none of the major channels picked up on it.
Dewalt doesn’t do anything last minute, they take years to develop new tools , new batteries, etc. Not a new gen 2,3,4 every year like Milwaukee. And Flex tools are a joke.
so samsung?? i was also wondering about the swelling. thanks for asking all the questions!
That was AMAZING rob! Real news "NO ONE" knew about, except Flex! Well done! I am truly informed, today. tomorrow that is another story......
You can not imagine how much I was waiting for this episode
One good thing about pouch batteries is tools like full size plunge router and track saws can make them much more compact. And I wonder if and when will Milwaukee comes out with there own track saw.
I always like to watch videos of @Belts And Boxes on fridays! There's no better way to finish the week and making feel like shopping for new tools! :D Keep up the great work guys! You rocks!!
Thanks Sebastien!
A phone is small power consumption when it comes to pouch cells. I think the bigger worry is how much power demand from pouch cells could cause explody issues. The Nissan Leaf, a full electric vehicle runs on pouch cells. Each battery (A nissan leaf has 40 of these batteries) contains 4 pouch cells, and I recharge my setup (15 batteries in a 48v configuration) at 60 Amps and have discharged regularly at 140 ah. I have these batteries in a solar storage system I have built and I have had 0 issues with bloating, or even heat issues. Pouch batteries, especially created by well know, reputable manufacturers have a ton of advantage as we will see as this technology matures in the power tool market.
Thanks for your insight Justin!
Yeah you can take the resistors off phone batteries and stack them to make great drone batteries!
Do you think Dewalt is employing the same protection technology in their batteries? I would imagine so, especially since Dewalts name has a whole lot more credibility to lose than Flex. I’m just wondering why they weren’t more direct in answering the safety concerns. Kudos to Flex for being upfront about it. I guess pretty soon everybody is going to be using these (Except maybe Makita...) . I’m sure there will be hiccups at first but at least Milwaukee will be there in a couple of years to capitalize on everybody else’s mistakes and act like they invented it themselves. Good info B&B crew, thanks.
I've heard rumors that they worked with a third party to develop a gel or paste that insulates the cells. That sounds similar to what Flex has said. However, that's just a rumor and you're getting second hand from me.
I reached out to DeWALT with all of these questions, and brought up the link to Amionx, SAFECORE, and Stanley Black & Decker. They said they would get back with me. That was several days ago. If they do answer these questions in detail, I'll gladly share them with you guys.
@@ToolShow Might be issue with patents, multiple companies coming out with similar products can be a landmine field of potential lawsuits on patent infringement. If Dewalt is working with a 3rd party instead of in-house then they may simply make them not as confident and want to tread lightly and not reveal anything that may get them in trouble for now...
I like the idea of using the flat lithium batteries for my tools, but I’m still not sold on how safe they are. I guess time will tell once they are available to purchase, and we will see if they have issues with fires or explosions.
I'm sure they are safe, but we use drones commercially and have to buy new batteries every year because they swell to the point that the battery cases dont fit properly. We buy new batteries spending over $1000 anually. They are a very highly regarded brand - with a lot to loose. We have never had a fire, but drones dont fly so well when the battery swells and pops out - or no longer fits. So I am going to be one to sit back and let others be the guinea pigs with this new change in tool battery technology. My tools are powerful enough - at least until they come out with something new that requires these new batteries that I cannot live without!
Thanks for the great information and video!
Now I have Flex stacked and normal 24v Flex lithium batteries and I was wondering if the 280watt charger that came with the stacked batteries can be used with both types of batteries?
You can cram much more active battery cc’s in a given space when your cells are flat than when they are cylindrical.
I'm 100% convinced this is a cost cutting measure.... With everyone racing to make EVs and power storage devices this is a measure to prevent their profit margins from going away as cylindrical battery cells become more scarce and thus more valuable. I'll be stocking up on traditional batteries before the cost per battery get crazy.
You can’t pull anywhere near the power from cell batteries compared to pouch cell. That’s why all the new batteries up the performance of all tool unless it locked my board on tool
Excellent Rob. Grateful for the update. I'm on the hunt for Flex-Tools. I didn't think we could get Flex in New Zealand. To my surprise, I was shown a flex wall sander & vacuum just the other day. Thank you for your Hard work brother. 🙏🏾🖖🏾🌞🤙🏾💚's🔔🏖🔔
What's your guess on when these might become available? Before EOY?
And did Flex even hint at what Ah sizes these will be available in?
Blessed be the Barrell Grip!
Great information. Thanks for the update.
3:15 the phone only draws 1-2 amps, power tools put much more strain on the battery.
We weren’t in any way comparing the batteries performance to those in your cell phone. We are referring to choosing the same company to produce the cells you need for power tools. The cell phone companies have good reason to invest in very good sales, so it made sense for flex do use the same company to build theirs. But their lithium ion pouch cells are significantly different than those found in a phone.
A BMS isn’t going to keep a cell from exploding except from a couple of causes. If there’s a short across the cell or anything else internal then it’s going to vent. If there’s only 10% room for expansion for each cell is the pouch going to rupture given limited space inside to housing? The other thing I’m interested in is the heat dissipation given the cells are stacked. Could be interesting to see what their thermal fluid is like in a finished product. It would be neat if you could get the actual engineers on again to talk some details about this stuff. Don’t get me wrong though, this tech is coming and probably for the better( and cheaper).
All good thoughts. They did say the thermal "material" (I think it's adhesive) does a better job cooling then they currently do on cylindrical cells. They're claiming an improvement on heat management. I'm not educated enough in this space to understand all the different ways it could fail. I'd love to get a third-party engineer to open one up for us. I fell like AvE would do a great job here.
Great. A new source of power for the Bolt!!!!
I’m curious as to why they leaked this even though we’re going into the Holiday shopping season, they have kits that just reached store shelves and they mostly don’t offer bare tools?
I wonder if the12 and 15 amp battery will be as small as an 8 amp. Maybe we could see a 20 amp flex20volt battery soon
We can't get Flex in Oz but we get Ego garden tools. They know a thing or two about batteries. Dewalt tools on the other hand and I have lots all seem to run pretty hot as normal. With the heat out here they can get super hot. Battery life isn't great as a result. My mate's 12 Ah on his mitre saw died recently only just out of warranty and these aren't cheap batteries. We probably won't see the new Dewalt ones for ages but it will be interesting to see how they perform in 40C + days.
Are power tool batteries ul-listed
thanks so much now i feel safe, and buy more flex tools. again thanks!!
Greate news. I hope every brand will upgrade batteries
Thanks, Rob! Looking forward to seeing further developments. I am 0% surprised they are not focused on size/weight -- their tools are powerful, but heavy.
D-HANDLE FOR LIFE!!! 🇺🇲
Has anyone gotten a release date for these batteries?
They haven't announced that yet. However, there is new FLEX news coming in January!
is it on my end or is there something wrong with the audio?
I really hope they are safe from abuse. My iPad battery which is a li ion pouch cell went up in flames 2 days ago and im lucky it was in a place where it didnt damage anything else.
Nice news snippet there.
So if there made out of the same stuff as the other battery's. How do they get 50% more power? And why can't the the other battery's do the same?
Good question Timothy. That's due to the physical layout of the battery. You know how when you put a AA battery in a device, the contacts are just touching the tip of the battery? That small connection actually limits how much power you can move. The new Pouch design has the wide tabs you can see in our DeWALT video, which can pass far more power at once.
I. So happy flex isn't worrying about compact batteries and is focusing on what matters, performance. Like who in their right mind went 1.7ah is a great idea. Punch that developer in the forehead cause he needs to wakeup.
You can get 4ah from a single stack 21700 battery, thats light and compact, great for impact drivers etc
So when the bad cell is detected the DMS shuts it down which means you no longer have the full amount of Ah. So how are you going to tell when that happens? What happens when the battery swells more than 10% ? When you lose a sell then you lost performance and run time. I guess you will have to buy another battery. Nope, you will have to use the original battery type. So think I will stay with what works they can keep those.
No. When it shuts down the cell, the battery is permanently dead. It's like the crumple zone on your car. It's there to keep you safe in a catastrophic accident, but once it's used, the car is trashed. But remember, Lithium-Ion batteries have a failure rate of less than 1 in a million. You are likely to NEVER take advantage of these safety features. If your battery fails, and expands, it's done. But the technology is in place to make sure you don't burn down your house in the process. ALSO, note that the traditional cells you have NOW, already have the same problem. They can fail too. There's nothing less reliable about this new technology. Assuming you can afford a small price jump, the new ones will give you more power, and longer life. What's not to love?
@@ToolShow I think I will wait and see how they turn out and to see more testing before I will use them.
Can these be stored fully charged? I have LiPo batteries in my DJI drone and you have to discharge them down to 60% if you're not going to be using them soon. The best thing about my Makita cordless tools is that the batteries just sit around fully charged ready to go when I need them. Not like those old NiCad tools I wasted too much money on when they came out.
Depends how good the BMS is... Flex claims theirs is very advance but we don't know about the Dewalt one yet...
Did Dewalt ever get back to you on your questions? Who makes the pouch cells for Flex and Dewalt? Can you share the manufacture?
It’s the chemistry. Stacked/pouches are LiPo cells. If they are punctured, creased, over current, over voltaged, they will burst into flames and spray sparks . Round cell LiFePO4 cells under extremely rare conditions do they catch fire and when they do, they simply just burn. Shoot the Flex stack with a nail gun, but it’s best done on the Fourth of July. Do they make more power? Absolutely. Will they charge more times or last more years, doubtful. More dangerous? You be the judge. Will you find LiPo cells in any commercially available off grid battery system? Nope, not a chance. Likely LiFePO4 chemistry.
First I will disclose I am a Milwaukee guy, but I also used to be a diehard rc truck guy. To my knowledge all the various voltage and amp hour batteries I used in RC were all flat cell; and no matter what I had customized my discharge rates at (very specific to rc cars) or charge rate (probably comparable to a standard charger vs rapid charger vs supercharger) the batteries would eventually balloon and therefore be unsafe to use. Even when I have thrown my father's (who knows how old) 1.5 ah batteries into multiple tools over years I have not seen any "ballooning"
Personally I think that says much for the durability and longevity of the standard cylindrical cell batteries used commonly.
Only time will tell.
Fair enough.
I stopped throwing tools when I started paying for them! 😳 …For the most part.
Just noticed Flex tools at Lowes this evening.
I don't want them. This is nothing more than them using a cheap option and spinning it as a new great thing
Why did dewalt not have these answers to questions from prosumers? I respect flex for being more open but I’ve said it before. If this pouch tech was as good as they said Milwaukee would have launched it. The fact that they haven’t is very interesting.
Wait for the high drop tests by you tubers. Flex and dewalt will be loosening their ties then.
Flex and Dewalt have kicked Milwaukee ass in 2021. Milwaukee needs to step it up!!
What are the weight differences with regular batteries? Other than size and maybe weight, there are no advantages. Durability will be ok as long as the battery case isn't broken. Amp hungry tools will cause heat which will cause cells to puff and increase internal resistance. Not good for battery life but profit margins are probably higher.
They work well in my rc cars.
Interesting, I've never seen or heard of a Lithium-Ion (non-polymer, that is) pouch cell. Now I really want to find out more!
From what I understand, the manufacturer of the dewalt cells Are using LiPo, but with a self sealing gel coat around each cell, and a BMS similar to the Spektrum Smart RC batteries
DeWALT isn't making LiPo cells either. I was wrong about that in the beginning. The use of Polymer in the construction is apparently a "Sony" thing. Sony isn't making their batteries. The gel coat you're referring to is SAFECORE technology from Amionx. I found a ton of fantastic content on the stuff, and asked DeWALT to confirm if they're using it, so I could share it all with you. But I'm still waiting.
@@ToolShow Iiiiiiinnteresting, thanks for the information! Now I need to go down the rabbit hole on these for C ratings and charging rates
Edit: also, I can confirm that all power tool batteries can explode, I've "popped" a few NiCd amd NiMh packs over the years 😳 they sound like a .22
@@ToolShow Sorry but unless you can provide a datasheet for these so called non-polymer pouch cells, then they are lipo's. And the use of Polymer isn't a sony thing. I've done some searching and haven't came across any non-polymer type Lithium-ion pouch cells. This Video has been out for 6month, did you hear back from dewalt? If you didn't I doubt you ever will. Also you said flex gets there batteries from the same manufacture as your phone but you didn't say what manufacture. Even the high end phones from samsung, apple, etc had issues with there batteries. And a BMS can't tell if a battery is expanding, failing yes if the bms is good enough. Like most big company's they are blowing smoke and will say what you want to hear.
This battery technology is perfect for my idea of a cordless soccer ball ⚽
That is good info for Lithium Ion, keep in mind that most bms is very poorly designed
keeping them out of balance and often drain one bank to the point that destroy them.
Exactly. That's why cheap batteries are a bad idea.
@@ToolShow
Milwaukee high output batteries (21700) has much better protection than their 18650
funny thing is that Bosch has no BMS and they last.
Guys often leave them in their truck which hot literally melt them, and cold dropped them beyond repair.
I found good practice to take them apart and balance them per bank and let them sit over night, and check them.
Yep 100% safe. Added that layer to keep them from exploding. Sorry can't watch so answered ahead. Lol
Interesting that DeWalt went for the compact approach while Flex is going all in on power. Wonder if that changes or accelerates SBD's plans.
Yeah I don't know. I was surprised to see DeWALT make such a big deal, and only have a single tiny battery to show us. This month they're bringing out an enormous 15AH traditional battery, because it's what we want! I couldn't help but speculate that DeWALT simply wanted to be "first", assuming they knew FLEX was working on their own. So they got the first battery done, and launched. But again, I'm just guessing here.
Dewalt has the most powerful tools and the batteries to support them already. A smaller lighter battery makes perfect sense for drills and impact drivers. As a builder this is a great addition to the dewalt line up. And if they make a 4ah and a 12ah that’s all they need. Stationary tools don’t need lighter batteries.
Flex tools will not be bought by contractors, they are already invested heavily into dewalt, Makita or Milwaukee, except YTube “ contractors “ who are a joke to any real builder.
Hopefully Milwaukee releases a version of this too
Id like to benefit from lighter stronger batteries without having to change brands.
I'm less considered about safety at some point it will be an issue but more of a longevity
So a high discharge rate li-ion puch cell ? LoL i kinda still feel like they’re li-po and they don’t wanna say that....... in regards to the BMS ..... it can’t tell if the battery is swelled up .... there is no way to tell electrically..... also pretty much every Li-po battery in RC models is charged with a balance charger and discharged by an esc with low voltage cutoff......so no the BMS doesn’t play nearly the role they say it does ....other than not being charged above 4,22v and discharged under 3,2ish there is nothing the BMS can prevent from happening if the battery is within its voltage threshold and still swells up.
Thanks for the info Rob much appreciated @Belts And Boxes
Eventuality Milwaukee will showcase their HO stacked red lithium batteries on their pipeline event.
Aways cool when they make leaps it technology
I hope Milwaukee is working on SOLID STATE batteries which will more than transform the tools. Its what they need right now.
Solid State is the holy grail at this point. Really anxious to see it.
Why would Milwaukee be working on it? The battery manufacturers are working on it. Milwaukee just buys and packages the batteries.
If they're so great I wonder why Tesla don't use stacked batteries.
We all talk about the tool industry but these new cells are going to really revolutionize the laptop industry as well. I'm excited about that - that is unless they already use those cells and the tool industry is catching up. That is a question I would like to know the answer too.
Laptops have VERY different power needs. They don't draw anywhere NEAR the power a grinder would. There are a TON of different types of Lithium-Ion Pouch cells. Each one is designed and engineered for it's specific purpose.
Having dealt with Mac Portables that the batteries swell and expand the case, its a safety feature. However, tampering with them (trying to replace your own) or damaging them can result in a thermal event (not explosion-that is dramatic. More like smoke and ignition). Keeping that close to your crotch, well...that's hot!
FLEX is saying their technology will stop the expansion of the cell, so you don't have a breach where fire will escape.
Dewalt never answers questions cool that flex did good informative video Rob @Belts And Boxes
DeWALT may still. I have submitted several questions, but they've yet to respond.
@@ToolShow I'm not sure dewalt will respond they very rarely go into detail about there items even with youtubers but who know they may respond I know 99 percent of us dewalt users been asking dewalt to listen to us users for decades they don't normally care about the consumer or there opinions just my honest view Rob
@@AntonioClaudioMichael dewalt doesn’t rush out bad products then next year make it better followed by the next year gen 3 remake it again. They make the best tools once and it takes years before any other company can catch up to them .
@@jncn1490 I get your point on what Milwaukee does and your opinions on dewalt but don't seem to have much to do with what I actually said
We’ve made it more efficient… by making the battery even less efficient…
What do you mean if we have 10 pouches 50% of the battery volume will be empty space!? Nooo….
The stacked lithium batteries are just like cell phone batteries, from what I understand.
I’m curious to know how much per watt hour these are compared to the others. These can be a little more dense in energy, but just because of the shape. It’s like an iPhone battery, they are made custom for each device. They could have done this years ago, these was probably an innovation from one of the companies making cells, so that they can make these cheaper now, the issue before was these would be much more expensive. They can make the cylindrical cells much cheaper and use the same ones in every battery, this makes them cheap. They are saying this isnt about making them smaller, but more powerful….. I’m pressing X to doubt on that one.
Don’t be surprised they told you who makes the cells… any company worth their salt, will tell yo who makes the batteries.
Power advantage is true, it's an inherent advantage they have over cylindrical cells, the issue with pouch batteries are...
1) They're harder to manufacture and get out in large quantities and... 2) They are more vulnerable to damage which brings up multiple safety issues....
Overcoming both was required to bring them into the construction industry... There's just a question of whether they were truly successful and there aren't any lingering issues, especially in terms of safety...
I was really hoping they would call it
Pouch Power™
Maybe next time I guess 🤷🏻♂️
LMAO
There’s a reason why Tesla only uses battery cells. Heat management is much more difficult in pouch cells and is the reason why Chevy bolts keep going up in flames. Tesla’s newest cell technology is still cylindrical not pouch and that’s for a reason. I have a feeling many of these batteries will have recalls over time.
...or maybe it is that Chevy engineers are just rubbish.
If your "feeling" is right, multi billion dollar companies will fail. And While that's certainly not out of the realm of possibility, I just don't think it's likely. These guys have all been building power tools and batteries for decades. They know far better than you our I, exactly how they're treated, and how they break. The have ENORMOUS motivation to do extensive testing and over-engineering to make sure these batteries are safe on the jobsite.
@@ToolShow ...and those car companies definitely have no reason to prevent electric cars from exploding.
@@ToolShow I would trust Tesla’s engineering on batteries than any single tool company. They are the worlds largest producer of batteries and they lead this industry with the innovations in this technology. Potentially in smaller quantities pouch batteries are more stable especially considering their use in phones watches etc. but pouch cells in large quantities have proven to be unstable. If not though having a 2ah the size of a 4 with a high output torque would be great. I welcome the innovation but I think it should at least be considered given the drawbacks already found with pouch cells.
@@ToolShow so does chevy but the volts go up in flames, thats BS.
non polymer pouch cell, hmm... you sure? never knew such thing exists, perhaps flex engineers are some other level, guess someone will have to take it apart at some point, ill stick with my old Milwaukee for now
That should have been obvious when they didn’t refer to them as Li-Po
And the maker of the pouches is, most likely Panasonic. They make most of the cells and in partner with Tesla.
Not them.
Not sponsored by dewalt, negative comments, sponsored by flex all positive comments, typical
I don't think that's a fair comparison. First of all, not sponsored. I didn't get paid anything for putting this video together. Obviously, FLEX does sponsor our weekly show, but this was simply reporting. DeWALT is a beloved brand around here. We're huge fans, and we have a lot of their fans in our audience. The reason DeWALT's PowerStack videos got pummeled, was because when we asked them what makes them safe, they refused to go into any details. FLEX on the other hand, obviously saw the same videos, and decided the community would want the same answers about THEIR tech. So when I asked, they offered it to me without reservation. It's a good idea.
The reality is, I've done a ton of background on the DeWALT PowerStack , and I presented it to them. I asked them if they would confirm what I found, so I could report it and put to rest some of the frustration. They said they'd get back with me, and have yet to do so.
The experience I have with pouch batteries comes from my Apple iPhones and MacBook Pros going back about 10 years now. EVERY SINGLE Apple product I've owned has had to be replaced due to battery swelling. I'm not believing this marketing BS . . . only an established track record has cred with me.
AZ, you're smart enough to know that your personal experience isn't enough to make statistical determination. By your rules, I've owned literally dozens of Apple product, and never had a battery swell. So they're perfect right?
The only time it's happend to me, was on a Samsung S7. And did it explode and cause damage? Nope. Their tech shut down the cell, and I got it replaced. That's how this works. And even then, it's very rare for a lithium-ion battery to explode. According to Consumer Reports, Lithium-Ion batterie have a failure rate of less than 1 in a million. And even those that fail, rarely explode and cause damage. You're more likely to get struck by lightning in your lifetime, then have a battery explode.
I'm sorry your person experience has been one of mind-bending improbability. That sucks man. But your personal experience is only valuable when it's added to a data set of hundreds of thousands of others. That's what actual research is for.
@@ToolShow It's awesome to finally hear someone put this situation in context. You said it better than I ever could, thank you!
Samsung makes better cells. Their batteries don't swell nearly as often and their degradation is far lower than apples. They did have a design flaw that caused rare failure in the note 7 but thats the only real hiccup. It depends on the manufacturer a lot. I think even apples newer batteries have been fixed but I'm not 100% sure. They used to have only 80% life left after 1 year of use compared to Samsung 95% after TWO years. Huge difference there. Power tools demand lots more average so hopefully it's all well engineered and they last a long time. Dewalt is boasting twice the lifespan so my hopes are up
Well I guess some electric cars have pouch cells that are more or less fine but time will tell
Love it when other copy the best tool brand in the world (dewalt)
If these are actually lithium polymer batteries ,after having experienced them in rc airplanes I'll pass .
LG Chem.
I flex my mic 🎤 on them girls
It’s fine until it get dropped off a ladder with a full charge.
NO!
🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷👏👏👏
Nothing like the chinese ripping off an American company.
Paid infomercial.
Nope. Just because you say something, doesn't make it true. This isn't politics. :)