Nothing new about this tech. Been running Lipo batteries in R/C's for years. Lipo's are also used in a lot of things that you probably didn't even know was using a lipo.
My partner has a lot of tools, so when he needed a circular saw, I ordered this one for him as a Christmas gift. ruclips.net/user/postUgkxYDKeIjKLOfcwTgdin7TtCutsz4MbIc43 He is incredibly happy with the purchase. He stated that he likes that it is powerful, but still easy to use and cuts very well. He mentioned that it is important to know the right tools for the job at hand, and this compact saw has been exactly what he needed for a variety of projects at his rental properties and renovations. He also appreciates the battery packs, as stated, he owns a lot of DEWALT tools, so he is able to always keep batteries charged as needed.
There’s a video out there that explains the technology, I don’t know why Dewalt didn’t mention it.. California based Amionix makes SafeCore technology for these batteries and they work with SBD. It’s basically another layer added to the battery which acts like a fuse. Used in the US Army for bulletproof technology, you can fire a round at it and it won’t explode. Sent you the video!👍👍
I can’t find the link at the moment, but it was in one of the battery cell manufacturer’s press release that they had signed a contract to provide freaky with so crazy number of cell packs for their batteries. I believe it was Amionix, but can’t 100% guarantee that’s correct. I do remember the article saying they were using technology originally developed by the University of Michigan, that used Kevlar to keep the batteries from exploding/catching fire. If I can find it again, I will post a link to it in the comments. As for dewalt saying that’s who they are using, doesn’t really make sense. I’ve never seen them advertise who’s cells they currently use. I believe in 3-4yrs no one will care, as long as they deliver as Dewalt promises, and so a safe track record
*IF* they were using that tech, the batteries would be quite a bit more expensive. And with the last 5 years of Dewalt cheapening products, cutting corners, and vague labeling I couldn't imagine Dewalt would be OK with taking a loss on their batteries. Time will tell, but I'm not taking that risk. I'm glad I sold nearly all my dewalts this past year. The Bosch Core batteries have been awesome (and light-years better than Bosch's old batteries) and the heat they can produce from heavy use doesn't stay contained in the housing like they do on a standard plastic box batteries. So if these are Kevlar Reinforced then I'm curious as to what corners they cut to make up for that extra cost.
We have lipo batteries in our phones, laptops, tablets, smart watches etc. The battery normally will explode when punctured or heated to massive extremes.
I do not believe you can have a non polymer pouch battery. The polymer is a thickener which isn’t needed in 18650 cells owing to their sturdy sides that can’t be crushed compared to the pouch design and inherent design that better keeps the layers separated. If you used the typical materials in a pouch it would be a problem with any punctures (compared to polymer) or really a lot of movement in general and it would be very difficult to separate the layers. Power output is also higher on polymer due to increased surface area. Durability is the reason that Tesla and many other automakers use cylindrical cells. That right there says a lot.
@@jonathanbetenbender307 Where did they say it's not polymer? I'm looking for that all over the web and can't find it. I think a lot of people who are skeptical about whether this is a big issue would be exactly as concerned as I am if they had worked with lithium polymer cells before. Years ago, I worked at a hobby supply distributor for a summer. We sold thousands of lipos to hobby shops all over the U.S. We also sold fireproof bags and recommended everyone make sure each customer has one. I know of people who burned their shops down with lipos. I bought several of them. They all bulge within less than five years. I can tell you confidently that I would never buy a power tool battery containing a lipo unless I plan to keep it in a fireproof bag at all times, and I would expect it to expand to the point of becoming unusable in less than five years. I don't want to deal with any of that, so I'll never buy a power tool battery if I know it has lipos in it. If Dewalt wants to sell these, it really does behoove them to be specific that these are NOT lipos.
@@texasgreentea1Skip to the 7 minute mark. This has already been used in electric vehicles; it's not lipo... a bunch of hobbyists don't know better than a multi billion dollar company. ruclips.net/video/5uwWaXiT_60/видео.html
@@jonathanbetenbender307 I watched the 7 minute mark right before writing my reply. There is no point in this video where Dewalt says "PowerStck does NOT have lipos." Also, I just told you lipos are known through millions of real-world test cases to ALWAYS fail dangerously within five years, and your response is... "a billion dollar company said that's false, so it's false." Really? Dude, you don't even need to take my word for it. Buy a lipo. Set it on your shelf for five years. Do please put it in a fireproof bag, because I guarantee it will become dangerously puffy one day.
I'm sure it has been mentioned but the batteries have a battery Management System that's to Keep the battery from overcharging. They also have a thermometer that is part of the Management System that shuts off the charge if the temperature gets to hot.
Not in application most likely means that the battery is designed to deliver 50% more amps but the tools may not take advantage of those amps so they can't make a blanket statement of 50% more power when it may (probably) not translate into 50% better performance out of a tool
"Not in application" is tester-speak to say that they were measuring power at the battery output, not after it has gone through a tool. This is common and proper when testing a battery so that results can be verified. Safety issues and why hobbyists use explosion-resistant battery containers have very little to do with battery chemistry. Safety comes primarily from two factors: Protection circuitry and physical protection. Batteries (like many RC batteries) that do not have in-built protection circuitry are substantially less safe regardless of chemistry. Dewalt Batteries have protection circuitry built-in and have a strong shell to physically protect the cells from being poked or squished. (The easiest way to make a Lithium battery explode is to stab a cell with something metal.) Why do hobbyists use fancy protection bags? Two major reasons: Firstly, hobbyist equipment often uses batteries that lack proper physical protection and lack protection circuitry. Secondly, hobbyists were early adopters of lithium-Ion batteries. Lots of explosions happened in those early years before the causes were fully understood. Many people get protection bags because they remember problems with the older tech.
Like Greg says the protection circuitry and especially the charging profile have far more to do with it than not. LiPo batteries are already everywhere, in most cell phones (even the old Apple iPods used LiPo) and many of the cheap rechargeable consumer electronics you likely use every day - those earbuds everyone has in their ears definitely aren't 18650s! Unless the new batteries have a significant flaw in the casing or charging/protection circuits I doubt it will be a problem. I haven't had a LiPo battery go on me since around 2009, and that includes the ones I used with my own self made charging and protection circuits in my electronics program. Pretty sure if I can make it not pop a full blown engineer can figure it out. Having said that, if you're nervous let other folks test them out for ya. Maybe it'll turn out like the Apple and Samsung products that did have flaws causing them to catch fire. You never know until it's out there..
Sounds like Mr Greg Wilson knows what hes talking about. At least it sounds logical to me a guy that knows how to use tools but knows absolutely nothing about battery technology lol.
I have been using lipos for years in rc planes , they go puffy and don't take a charge after a so many cycles .I hope Dewalt has got something better ,btw I've got no complaints about li ion cells in my tools.
You have shined new light on this for me. I was going to wait for Milwaukee to do the same thing. Now I hope they don't. Guess I will go ahead and but that M18 trimmer.
A friend of mine burned down his whole shop (30x50) to the ground. With the RC plane batteries. Luckily nobody was there to get hurt. It worked out his insurance payed for a new shop.
Lithium based batteries have a narrower temperature range they have to be charged in. They catch fire are explode when the temperature gets too high when charging. You put a hot lithium battery on the charger the charger waits until the battery cools down before charging are if it has a fan, it will cool the battery that way. It's best to set the battery aside and let it cool down completely before charging.
I agree it's important to understand exactly what we are buying. I think the fire risk is a bit overstated. My company uses thousands of devices using the Li-Po batteries and they are expanding and failing constantly, sometimes dramatically, but never (yet) smoke or catch fire. No doubt it's possible, but I don't think it's common. I'm more concerned about reliability than fire.
That's odd. I've never seen a lipo fail without huge flames. Are you sure you're not confusing "lipo" with "lifepo"? LiFePO4 will gas but rarely flame. Lipos spit giant flames the moment oxygen gets inside the pouch.
One point to consider is that Lithium polymer cells are used in almost all cellphones (energizer made one that uses 18650 I think), a lot of laptops, powerbanks etc. The issue comes if they are nit well protected and drained / chared with verry high currents. The 18650 cells have an over pressure fuse build into every cell, which disconnects the cell and vents the overpreassure while the metall housing protects from punctures. This is where a significant safty improvement comes from. In my opinion, these batteries are just a cost savin attempt on devalts side, which comes with the downside of a lower lifespan (these pouche cells thed to expand and lose their capacity when used in high currend applications for a longer time).
My main concern would be how temperature affects the battery performance. I know my cordless tools get exposed to a wide temperature range during use outdoors in the summer vs the winter.
If you’re smart you’ll try to keep your tools at safe temperatures. Don’t leave them in your truck in the winter and don’t leave them in the sun in the summer simple. Take care of your tools. Also the power stack is amazing I love them
Regardless of whether you are correct or wrong; I believe you are correct in questioning this. I am not a chemical engineer, nor an electrical engineer. I can’t speak on this, but I applaud you for raising this question. Thank you.
I think your concerns are totally valid! LiPo batteries burn up all the time… and that’s installed in devices we’re all generally gentle with like phones, laptops, etc. Imagine how much higher the fail rate will be once they start getting banged around, and subjected to harsh working environments, etc. I think you’re entirely right to ask the question!!
That stuff has been blown out of proportion from the media, and the vast majority of those are probably from people charging at improper rates (not using the provided charger). Having a phone in the desert... in a car... with the windows rolled up. Btw they are far more likely to swell than catch fire. I literally stabbed one before and it did nothing. Not suggesting you do that. There are different LiPos. The powerstack isn't a LiPo btw. If this were a LiPo then it would be a concern because the charge/discharge rates would be much higher than a phone or laptop. It would also be physically subjected to far more.
I know my Makita chargers draw air through the battery as it charges them, and other mfgr's have some similar stuff. At least the 18650's have space between them you can draw air through. These just seem like the layers in the middle are insulated by the surrounding ones.
I'm not sure how practical it would ultimately be, but a thermal transfer layer between each cell with some very mild heatsink application would solve most issues with heat.
I discussed this with my dad just yesterday. These are the style of battery that caused all those hoverboard fires a few years ago. I'm certain that the tech is safer now than it was then, and I'm sure that DeWalt and Flex (they leaked it about a day before DeWalt did through VCG) have done the due diligence to make these as safe and as stable as possible. However, I also feel that there will be some issues early on as companies and consumers work out the kinks. I like to be an early adopter on a lot of technology, but I'm going to wait this one out a bit.
Imagine leaving a battery at a job site, the next day the job site burned down. Now the question is do you get paid to rebuild or do you work for free for starting a lipo fire
Lithium Bag batteries are really cheap, but cell failures due to heat are more common, and capacity is less than in the equivalent 18650 cells or bigger.
So I got a set of 2.0 amp hour power stack batteries a few months ago through a large consumer store doing a limited promo. We've beat the crap out of these batteries and put them through countless charge and drain cycles. I can say for sure that they're more powerful than any Tool manufacturers 2.0 amp hour batteries and they drain at a slower rate. We've had zero issue so far even though they've been dropped from 30' roofs, smashed with lumber, left out in 20 degree weather overnight, etc. I see that RC car nerds are scared of similar batteries they've encountered in the past but DeWalt doesn't make RC cars - they make tools that you work with
I read the SDS from manufacturer and doesn't mention anything about polymer. SDS also mentions sensitivity to mechanical impact or static discharge is none.
We fly our free style drones with lipo packs and it's delivers a high discharge rate, but if you over discharge it you ruin the pack or one of the cell will start to puff and thats end of your battery. And you know people using the power tools will run it till the last drop of power.. unless they build some type of voltage limiter in the battery packs.
Lipo cells can be tuned chemically to have more or less current delivery, to have more capacity, or to be more stable. Phone batteries for example are tuned for stability and capacity, while drone batteries are tuned for current delivery, and sometimes capacity. I think it is best to store any lithium based battery in good temperatures, and to not keep it fully charged or totally discharged. The BMS will probably deal with these issues for the most part, but they will likely have more risk than cylindrical cells just because they don't have a hard shell. 18650 can blow up too if punctured or rapidly over charged, or getting too hot while fully charged.
To be fair, the phone in your pocket uses polymer batteries. If you aren't afraid of your phone exploding in your pocket, this shouldn't be any more concerning.
@@denoftools very true but I've also dropped my phone numerous times. I'm certainly not saying there is no concern just seems a little overblown, but I also don't throw my tools around like that.
people leave them in direct sunlight with the screen turned on listening to music on RUclips until the phone is radiating heat at like 130 degrees, drop them regularly, and if that person is a mailman it'll be in their breastpocket next to their beating heart doing everything stated above I am... well put simply, just not afraid of liPo anymore. Maybe a little bit back in 2009 when the G1 was finally succeeded by the Motorola droid but not nowadays
VCG construction, another youtuber i watch, recently did a video showing these batteries and the rep he was talking to specifically said these are not lipo pacs but a new design that was developed in conjunction with the cell manufacturer.
the self puffing is caused by external or internal damage or being fully or over charged for too long. the steel case of a li ion keeps it from puffing or being damaged easily.
The pouch type cells such as the ones used new Dewalt battery are used in cellphones, laptops, tablets. Several years ago they were used on those hand held jump starters that fit in your glove box. I am less concerned with cylindrical cells as they are less likely to combust, now they have the LiFePO4 that are supposed to be safer. Who knows what chemistry Dewalt is going with, hopefully, they made the right choice. Yes, it is recommended that you keep an eye on your batteries during charging, which no one does. My 9ah flex volt batteries do concern me a little.
How are they going to manage the heat of the inner layers?A sheet of metal between to pull heat out?At least the space between cylindrical batteries allow some passive cooling.
As an IT guy I have seen the LiPo expansion a lot especially in all of our laptops that are like 2015 or newer. It's been. Headache for years, I have seen people with the same laptop work for years and no issues with the battery but I have also seen people with a new laptop for only a month and have the expansion issue. So it's just the luck of the draw when you are dealing with these kind of batteries
I don’t think Dewalt would release sketchy batteries like those of the R/C world. That would open them up to liability from loss damage, and bad publicity. I am very familiar with R/C Lipos. I think where Dewalt lithium ion polymer batteries differ is the over discharge protection is built into the battery. Instead of relying on speed controllers or the charger’s circuitry like those R/C batteries. Damage to lithium cells is from over discharging below 3.2v per cell. Then attempting to charge a damage cell. The problem is the heat that gets created from having to overcome the internal resistance of the damaged cell. As long as the Dewalt battery case is strong to protect the cell packs and the cells don’t drop below 3.2v I think the fire danger is just as much a risk as the 18650 cells.
@@freedomliberty7611 The liability and bad publicity Dewalt would suffer if this battery medium was not safe and robust would be detrimental. That being said I hope they did the proper testing. Do these batteries have a UL certification?
@@freedomliberty7611 what are the inherent chemistry differences between lion and lipo again? RC batteries do suffer from bad QC but they also are stressed way more than most batteries. I have a bunch of hobby batteries rated at 45C. That means discharging the battery fully in 80 seconds. That’s a huge ask for a reversible chemical reaction. If your battery lasts 10 minutes that’s a 6C discharge rate. I’ve collected a collection of old laptop 18650s and one Samsung INR18650-22FU is rated at 2.2Ah. A 45C load is pulling 99Amps! Almost any battery will not be able to handle that but RC batteries are put through that… and do burn all the time. Nothing I’ve read about lithium batteries leads me to believe that lipos are inherently less safe. What don’t I know?
As a firefighter I have seen some of the battery fires that have occurred, usually its because of a puncture of the outer skin of battery ( had this happen with apple battery) and also the cheap cells that do not have voltage regulation that can ignite while charging due to an over charge condition as they do not have the circuits to shut off properly. I just recently had a 40 volt Ryobi battery catch fire and ignite and explode at a home depot a couple of months back in the package. Now the unit was purchased at another store and returned to a different store and put back on the self so who knows if someone dropped it or swapped it for another battery and returned this one. So its like most things now adays for the convenience they are for the most part safe but things can and do go wrong.
the chevy Bolt uses pouches... nuff said. its a cooling issue. I agree... they moved to pouches which have inherent risk to market space and power savings. we had a bunch of surface laptops swell up because of the same cooling issues...
I can attest to the problem with Lithium-Ion Polymer batteries being some what prone to heating up and warping itself due to the heat. It happened to my Samsung phone which required me to replace the phone.
My brother is tired of me borrowing his weed eater. So, I decided to invest in the full line of Dewalt yard tools. I've been researching it all winter and finally decided on the 20v stack lineup of tools specifically because of the "new" battery technology. Glad I watched this video first. I'll wait another season and see how things develop. In the meantime I'll just buy him a 12 pack each time I borrow the weed eater.
I’ve spent a lot of time in the RC world; namely aircraft. If this is in fact LiPo Tech, then you’re correct in that these potentially do create a safety risk: imagine a hot toolbox, dropping, etc. Puncturing any battery cell is bad, but a LiPo is even worse as they often short circuit and burst. Also: Why so $ I wonder? This tech has plummeted in price since it has become so ubiquitous (granted not in the tool world). Seems they could offer more benefits for a cheaper price, then dominate the market.
Also, the same thing doesn’t just apply for Dewalt when it comes to lithium ion pouch batteries, you have the same issues with Milwaukee’s forge batteries, and the same problem for the flex batteries.
Jeff your spot on ive had a battery explosion at the R/C track while changing no joke it was like an M80 going off . Thanks for another great video thank you
Why would that do that? It's to their benefit to lock people into battery platforms, it would take some sort of government intervention to get that to stop.
Lipo cells usually have issues with electrolyte seperator membrane failure causing an internal short circuit. The hard outer plastic shell of the drill battery should protect the pouches sufficiently from physical damage.
they had the 24 volt Gone they had a 36 volt gone they had the 40 volt gone if they get rid off the flexvolt they are killing their hole hawg and their 9'' cutt off saw, the miter saw and the table saw there is no hope for this company flexvolt is expensive but it does anger me that there low degree tools come with drills with 1.3 amp batteries the industry standard is 4 amp but Dewalt is going to become a lost cause if they keep selling crap batteries
Lithium Ion polymer batteries are used in cell phones, laptops, tablets. The only time I head of this batteries exploding and creating fire are when they were used in the Samsung galaxy cell phones. Samsung did fix the issue so I am thinking this is a quality control issue. Lots of different companies in China produce this batteries with varying quality control. So it really depends on who produce them.
I was watching another vid earlier and they nailed this in one sentence, Marketers are liars. Their job is to sell. I had one of their earlier 18v charger go batshit crazy and smoked, quite literally, 2 batteries. If this is going to be the direction they choose, I will choose other next time. I don't need that kind of excitement in my life, thank you.
also if you put a li ion battery in a polymer pouch it would be just as volatile because it can be damaged easier, punctured, swell, crush or ignited. the polymer pouch does not offer as much protection as a steel case in the case of li ion.
1. My power stack battery DOES have the wattage/aH/voltage info on it, I think you’re just not seeing it on the site - I kinda get this because not everyone would understand that the battery can deliver more power w certain specs. Not everyone uses ohms law/ batter knowledge when getting a tool 😂 2. The batteries actually can deliver more power at lower ratings due to the size of the +/- terminals with those flat batteries. 3. I have a good feeling that these batteries won’t be a safety issue because of the way they are ran. A LiPo battery in a computer runs at a completely different impedance and power rating than a power tool - also ppl tend to leave laptops plugged in all the time instead of letting their batteries naturally drain and recharge. No matter if it’s a computer or a tool, batteries should never be left plugged in at all times, it’s not too good for them.
18650 batteries are Lithium polymer. The polymer is the electrolyte separator for the anode and cathode that allows the ions for flow back and forth (charge/discharge). 18650's (and all their various size cousins) differ in that they are in a "hard case" tube and are rolled. They have vent holes in the event of catastrophic failure (I know, because I have personally have had 18650's fail violently, and man the flames coming out of the vent on the 18650 was impressive). As with Jeff, I am an avid R/C pilot and have dealt with standard LiPo flat batteries. I have had several catastrophic failures over the years with flat LiPo batteries. But the round and flat cells behave the same. The reason the R/C community and laptop, cell phones, etc. don't use the round cell version of a Lithium Ion battery is weight and size (Actually older laptops did use the round versions, long ago). It's just that "everyone" (manufacturers) tend to get lazy and just leave off the "Polymer" when discussing Lithium Ion batteries. It's the same when discussing lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries. They still have the polymer gel to separate the anode and cathode. There are electric car batteries that do use the flat version if Lithium Ion (polymer) batteries. But they encase the flat pack (usually 4 cells) in a metal case to prevent the "puff" issues of LiPo cells. When you start building a full pack of these, you have to use metal studs in each corner and torque them down properly to make sure they are "safe". Tesla uses 18650's and puts them in a big metal case for double insurance. But they could have just as well used flat cells if they wanted. Now if Dewalt takes the flat pack design and then works in a metal case around the cells with proper ventilation for failure they might have something. But then you are back to a "heavy" battery pack. Maybe if they do it with the molded case, it will be still light enough. But someone has to take one apart and see. But there really isn't anything special that distinguishes the internals of a round cell verses a flat cell of a Lithium Ion (Polymer) battery. Round cells are just generally "safer" because of the metal encasing them. The biggest issue is the battery management hardware/software. That is the most important part of dealing the Lithium Ion batteries. If you can monitor and manage the cell voltages properly they are quite safe. (Sorry but the R/C world is still lacking in that respects. We tend to push the limits of the battery trying to get every ounce of power and flight time out of the LiPo's. Which degrade them and we end up with more catastrophic failures than anyone else).
Thank goodness I'm well stocked on DeWalt 20V batteries with the 18650 and 21700 batteries. I hope DeWalt continues to see these as I will be avoiding the Power Stack batteries until they have established a long, safe, reliable track record. I simply do not trust the Li polymer technology as they eventually swell and fail (if your lucky) and catch fire if you're unlucky or inadvertently damage them (like dropping off your belt or work stand).
When I first saw the videos about the "new batteries" from Dewalt I too was scratching my head because as far as I knew there wasn't anything new under the Sun. Companies have been trying to make new better options for batteries, safer options. Tesla does not use the "flat packs" in their vehicle, but rather the typical cylindrical cells we typically see in our drills, that says a lot. I think you are correct about your concerns. The truth will come out.
The batteries in your Moto are stacked lithium-ion polymer cells and you're not worried about it catching on fire. Virtually every portable power bank on the market is made with stacked LiPolys. As many others have pointed out, the chemistry difference is not why RC cells explode, it's because the packs and the use-cases don't include built-in circuitry to protect them, because the goal in RC is to draw as much power as possible as fast as possible, and because due to size/weight constraints they don't have a protective hard plastic case surrounding them. I have done many deep dives into RC batteries. As a 3D heli pilot, we beat our packs more than anyone in RC except maybe EDF fast jets (depending on which type of abuse one considers worse.) While they do (very rarely) fail while charging or even while resting, they virtually never fail without first showing signs of issues. The problem in RC is that most people don't monitor their cell health (checking IRs after every cycle, for instance.) The reason phones and power banks don't have the same rate of problems is because they don't drive the cells anywhere near as hard and they internally monitor cell health and regulate charge and discharge rates. All of those protective measures can, and should, be applied to power tool batteries. I guarantee DeWalt is including as much protection circuitry as they reasonably can to ensure that they don't have a major PR problem from their batteries burning down shops and job sites. The hard plastic case will be plenty to protect the cells from all but that absolute worst kinds of abuse (running over with a skid steer or something), which would certainly damage cylindrical cells as well. The legal team at DeWalt is surely not keen on facing a class action lawsuit.
Here’s the thing about power stack it has a lot of power for the short runtime, this means the power stack will have more power when it has full 3 bars compared to your normal 2 AH. The first three bars power stack has about the same amount of power 4 ah, but it doesn’t retain power for very long. Also, the original power stack is considerably small, but 5 ah power stack it’s just a slight bit bigger than the 4 ah slim, but should pack the power of a traditional 9 ah when it has 3 bars.
the polymer is actually the polymer pouch that encases the battery's internals and they are more energy dense because they have more surface area. the electrolyte is actually a liquid. I've even opened up a Li ion and a lipo cell before they are basically the same
While I wasn't even thinking about the difference in battery chemistry, when I saw the picture I thought "what happens if you hit it hard enough with those soft packs?". Glad I'm not the only one.
It seems the biggest safety factor in lithium batteries is the electronics inside to discharge/charge the battery. There are millions of iPhones being dropped and thrown around, I don’t hear of many catching on fire (aside from QC failures). Would be interesting to see a tear down of the batteries when they come out
Bear they can put different types of Chem in those cells. You can get lifepo4. It's common to find them in thos kinds of cells in a big car size battery form with thos inside. They may even be using lithium Cobalt batteries it's really hard to say what Chem they are using but for more power in a small package would think they are using lipos
As you were discussing this 'new' battery tech of DeWalt's...I couldn't help but thing of the problems Boeing had with the battery packs on the 787. Three major fires...one in-flight! One can only hope the yellow and black crew will give us the option on which battery tech we choose to buy. Shine on, Jeff! UncaWoody
From what I understand is lithium cobalt is the chemistry that explodes, where lithium iron phosphate is very safe. But pouch cells are easier to damage and cause a direct short than normal cells.
Chris -- I'm glad you've never had an RC battery burn up. Neither have I. So, what does that tell us about the safety and reliability of LiPo batteries? Answer: Next to nothing. The question is NOT whether it's possible for one or two people to use these batteries without problem. Instead, the question is whether these batteries are as safe and as reliable as the 'current' technology batteries. I know someone who uses a folded up strip of aluminium foil to replace a fuse in his car. He's never had a problem with it. That doesn't make it a safe thing to do!
Do you crash your RC planes often? The concern with this technology in battery powered tools is they are by nature exposed to harsher conditions. Dropped from the waist level or higher(which is often part of tool durability tests), banging around in a tool bag/cart, batteries stored on the charger or even inside the tool by default, stored in non tempature controlled area, and the list goes on. What we've gotten away with using and storing our battery powered tools is not going to fly with these pouch style batteries.
@@DKWalser Thanks David for clarifying the question. My point on posting this bit of fact is really to say a couple of things. 1) The technology has been around the block a while. 2) Given the harsh conditions that they have to put up with in being utilized in planes they seem to have done ok even without a plastic jacket. 3) They get charged manually and there is more opportunity for setting up the correct voltage and amperage incorrectly. Will they do well in a power tool? My answer would be yes. Aluminum foil works pretty good as a 3 amp fuse. 🥂
Jeff wanted equal billing with the Bear, hee hee. Jeff does all the dirty work the Bear is cigars and cognac. We’re going to carrying around car batteries for this stuff. Seriously they can do better.
I remember when lithium batteries first came out for the Radio controlled flying hobby they had two types : lithium ion and lithium polymer. The lithium ion ones were considered more dangerous and have mostly been phased out. My experience with lithium polymer has not been good as far as them lasting very long and continuing to charge to the rated capacity. They also swell up fairly quickly and are considered Unsafe when they do but I’ve never had one take off on me. The instructions with the batteries tell you to not leave them at full charge for more than 24 hrs and they must be cycled once a month to maintain them. I have plenty of those fireproof bags for transport and storage but I charge them in a ceramic flowerpot with a brick on top just in case they take off. When soldering new connectors on the leads I accidentally shorted the leads once and the battery got unbelievable hot in a second. There is also a third type - lithium iron that is supposed to be more stable but I haven’t tried them yet. From all of this, I think these flat cell batteries are not up to the typical abuse that power tools see with the batteries being left at full charge all the time and getting banged around a lot.
I ordered a couple of LiPo cells for my helicopter and they came with a connector that I didn't need. Unthinkingly, I cut both wires at the same time on the first one. There was a puff of smoke and the helicopter never generated enough lift to get of the ground on that one battery (the other I treated properly and was fine). That from just a fraction of a second.
@@chaos.corner I accidentally touched both wires with a soldering iron putting a new connector on for a second and the battery got so hot you couldn't hold it. My guess is if you check the battery you will find one of the cells dead. Lithiums are very unforgiving.
I've been using LiPo batteries in radio control cars/trucks/planes/boats for about 16 years. In that time i have had one LiPo battery pack puff on me and ive seen at least 5 batteries actually catch fire due to a short or abuse. Yes there is a higher risk involved and the batteries require special chargers and balancers but they have gotten much better over the years. I believe dewalt has made a choice based on performance, safety etc. and have deemed them suitable for power tool use. I would be comfortable using them, and would charge them completely supervised and store them in a fire safe bag or container like i do with my R/C LiPo packs.
If you want my guess... DeWalt is getting out ahead of future supply chain issues, shortages and bottlenecks in cylindrical cell production. There's probably plenty of pouch manufacturing machines open for production. I think because they are in a sturdy plastic case, they'll be fine, provided there isn't any shifting between cells. Which there's always doubled sided tape on stacked cell pouches like that, from the many that I've seen over the years.
For everyone wondering the main difference between lipo and liion is the electrolyte used. Liion uses liquid electrolytes and, from what a representative said in the video of vcg, this battery uses a liquid electrolyte. Lipos uses "solid" electrolyte.
Dewalt Engineering: Should'nt we include Dewalt Legal on this Zoom call? Dewalt Marketing: Naaah. They have too much going on. Tool Bear: Hold my beer.
the powerstack has a protective case and s bms aka battery management system. normally an rc battery does not and the dewalt battery case is screwed together so the halves wont separate even if the cells puff so i don't think there is a problem
You know I am glad you brought up the leaving the battery on the charger overnight is a no no as I have a MSI laptop and Im sure it uses this technology and have left it on the charger overnight (mostly on accident) but good to know going forward really shouldn't do that
Overnight is perfectly safe actually if the device is already fully charged. The main time you shouldn’t leave it on the charger overnight is just when it’s charging as fires are most common by far (I believe something like 95% of such fires) with batteries and chargers when actively charging at high rates or when using the device and so you’re being asleep isn’t a great idea. Edit: As an addition however if you do keep it off the charger make sure you turn it off fully, not just in sleep mode. This not only saves battery for the device but it also helps guarantee that if something happened and the device got wet or damaged you’d have a much higher chance of saving your data. A computer’s data can survive most anything nowadays as long as it’s powered off.
These same batteries are used in high end rc planes and cars batteries. They are high powered and great batteries, but, at least the batteries we use for rc, are known to be a bit finicky in the safely sector. We know that if charged wrong, discharged wrong, or stored wrong, it can cause a fire/light up. Idk what dewalt is using or doing, but if this is the same tech/battery type, then there’s a chance that if the user don’t know how to charge and discharge it correctly, it can light up as they are not the most stable batteries.
Pouch vs cylindrical are just a form factors. Most lithium chemistries are available in multiple variants of either format with pouch style's thin wall being more vulnerable to mechanical damage and expansion than cylinder-style's steel shell. The cell style shouldn't be an issue as long as the battery housing is designed to provide equivalent overall protection and account for cell expansion.
The aliens who gave dewalt the tech are gonna abduct you for leaking their secrets
And we all know what they do once they have abducted someone....🥒
@@unclefester4626 😆 😅 😂 🤣😆 😅 😂 🤣😆 😅 😂 🤣
They better watch it.....He may go full "Randy Quaid" on them!!!!!🤔🤔🤔😃😃😃
"Leaking" is the keyword.
Nothing new about this tech. Been running Lipo batteries in R/C's for years. Lipo's are also used in a lot of things that you probably didn't even know was using a lipo.
My partner has a lot of tools, so when he needed a circular saw, I ordered this one for him as a Christmas gift. ruclips.net/user/postUgkxYDKeIjKLOfcwTgdin7TtCutsz4MbIc43 He is incredibly happy with the purchase. He stated that he likes that it is powerful, but still easy to use and cuts very well. He mentioned that it is important to know the right tools for the job at hand, and this compact saw has been exactly what he needed for a variety of projects at his rental properties and renovations. He also appreciates the battery packs, as stated, he owns a lot of DEWALT tools, so he is able to always keep batteries charged as needed.
There’s a video out there that explains the technology, I don’t know why Dewalt didn’t mention it.. California based Amionix makes SafeCore technology for these batteries and they work with SBD. It’s basically another layer added to the battery which acts like a fuse. Used in the US Army for bulletproof technology, you can fire a round at it and it won’t explode. Sent you the video!👍👍
Good find
This is supposedly the same technology that Dewalt is using on these batteries
IF this is the same technology that DeWalt is using then, DeWalt needs to say it!👍
I can’t find the link at the moment, but it was in one of the battery cell manufacturer’s press release that they had signed a contract to provide freaky with so crazy number of cell packs for their batteries. I believe it was Amionix, but can’t 100% guarantee that’s correct. I do remember the article saying they were using technology originally developed by the University of Michigan, that used Kevlar to keep the batteries from exploding/catching fire. If I can find it again, I will post a link to it in the comments. As for dewalt saying that’s who they are using, doesn’t really make sense. I’ve never seen them advertise who’s cells they currently use. I believe in 3-4yrs no one will care, as long as they deliver as Dewalt promises, and so a safe track record
*IF* they were using that tech, the batteries would be quite a bit more expensive. And with the last 5 years of Dewalt cheapening products, cutting corners, and vague labeling I couldn't imagine Dewalt would be OK with taking a loss on their batteries.
Time will tell, but I'm not taking that risk. I'm glad I sold nearly all my dewalts this past year.
The Bosch Core batteries have been awesome (and light-years better than Bosch's old batteries) and the heat they can produce from heavy use doesn't stay contained in the housing like they do on a standard plastic box batteries.
So if these are Kevlar Reinforced then I'm curious as to what corners they cut to make up for that extra cost.
We have lipo batteries in our phones, laptops, tablets, smart watches etc. The battery normally will explode when punctured or heated to massive extremes.
It's like he doesn't think DeWalt did any RnD on this.
I do not believe you can have a non polymer pouch battery. The polymer is a thickener which isn’t needed in 18650 cells owing to their sturdy sides that can’t be crushed compared to the pouch design and inherent design that better keeps the layers separated. If you used the typical materials in a pouch it would be a problem with any punctures (compared to polymer) or really a lot of movement in general and it would be very difficult to separate the layers. Power output is also higher on polymer due to increased surface area.
Durability is the reason that Tesla and many other automakers use cylindrical cells. That right there says a lot.
Haven't they been working on graphene and quartz crystal batteries?.
They said it's not a polymer... I'm gonna trust dewalt not wanting a lawsuit over your opinion
@@jonathanbetenbender307 Where did they say it's not polymer? I'm looking for that all over the web and can't find it.
I think a lot of people who are skeptical about whether this is a big issue would be exactly as concerned as I am if they had worked with lithium polymer cells before. Years ago, I worked at a hobby supply distributor for a summer. We sold thousands of lipos to hobby shops all over the U.S. We also sold fireproof bags and recommended everyone make sure each customer has one. I know of people who burned their shops down with lipos. I bought several of them. They all bulge within less than five years.
I can tell you confidently that I would never buy a power tool battery containing a lipo unless I plan to keep it in a fireproof bag at all times, and I would expect it to expand to the point of becoming unusable in less than five years. I don't want to deal with any of that, so I'll never buy a power tool battery if I know it has lipos in it. If Dewalt wants to sell these, it really does behoove them to be specific that these are NOT lipos.
@@texasgreentea1Skip to the 7 minute mark. This has already been used in electric vehicles; it's not lipo... a bunch of hobbyists don't know better than a multi billion dollar company. ruclips.net/video/5uwWaXiT_60/видео.html
@@jonathanbetenbender307 I watched the 7 minute mark right before writing my reply. There is no point in this video where Dewalt says "PowerStck does NOT have lipos."
Also, I just told you lipos are known through millions of real-world test cases to ALWAYS fail dangerously within five years, and your response is... "a billion dollar company said that's false, so it's false." Really? Dude, you don't even need to take my word for it. Buy a lipo. Set it on your shelf for five years. Do please put it in a fireproof bag, because I guarantee it will become dangerously puffy one day.
I'm sure it has been mentioned but the batteries have a battery Management System that's to Keep the battery from overcharging. They also have a thermometer that is part of the Management System that shuts off the charge if the temperature gets to hot.
Not in application most likely means that the battery is designed to deliver 50% more amps but the tools may not take advantage of those amps so they can't make a blanket statement of 50% more power when it may (probably) not translate into 50% better performance out of a tool
You're confusing Power (Voltage multiplied by amperage in this case) and work (force multiplied by displacement). Amps are only part of the equation.
They would probably have to be power detect line of tools to take advantage of the increase.
@@Jeff-ne2sg yes, but in this particular example dewalt is locked to 20v because of the tools therefore the variable to increase power is amperage
"Not in application" is tester-speak to say that they were measuring power at the battery output, not after it has gone through a tool. This is common and proper when testing a battery so that results can be verified.
Safety issues and why hobbyists use explosion-resistant battery containers have very little to do with battery chemistry. Safety comes primarily from two factors: Protection circuitry and physical protection. Batteries (like many RC batteries) that do not have in-built protection circuitry are substantially less safe regardless of chemistry. Dewalt Batteries have protection circuitry built-in and have a strong shell to physically protect the cells from being poked or squished. (The easiest way to make a Lithium battery explode is to stab a cell with something metal.)
Why do hobbyists use fancy protection bags? Two major reasons: Firstly, hobbyist equipment often uses batteries that lack proper physical protection and lack protection circuitry. Secondly, hobbyists were early adopters of lithium-Ion batteries. Lots of explosions happened in those early years before the causes were fully understood. Many people get protection bags because they remember problems with the older tech.
To be fair,. RC airplanes can't afford the weight of a rigid battery pack, and they are running the cells at a discharge rate that can go as 80C.
Like Greg says the protection circuitry and especially the charging profile have far more to do with it than not. LiPo batteries are already everywhere, in most cell phones (even the old Apple iPods used LiPo) and many of the cheap rechargeable consumer electronics you likely use every day - those earbuds everyone has in their ears definitely aren't 18650s! Unless the new batteries have a significant flaw in the casing or charging/protection circuits I doubt it will be a problem. I haven't had a LiPo battery go on me since around 2009, and that includes the ones I used with my own self made charging and protection circuits in my electronics program. Pretty sure if I can make it not pop a full blown engineer can figure it out.
Having said that, if you're nervous let other folks test them out for ya. Maybe it'll turn out like the Apple and Samsung products that did have flaws causing them to catch fire. You never know until it's out there..
Sounds like Mr Greg Wilson knows what hes talking about. At least it sounds logical to me a guy that knows how to use tools but knows absolutely nothing about battery technology lol.
I have been using lipos for years in rc planes , they go puffy and don't take a charge after a so many cycles .I hope Dewalt has got something better ,btw I've got no complaints about li ion cells in my tools.
Water intrusion also tends to cause a greater explosive and or fire reactions.
I have the same concerns bear
You have shined new light on this for me. I was going to wait for Milwaukee to do the same thing. Now I hope they don't. Guess I will go ahead and but that M18 trimmer.
A friend of mine burned down his whole shop (30x50) to the ground. With the RC plane batteries. Luckily nobody was there to get hurt. It worked out his insurance payed for a new shop.
Lithium based batteries have a narrower temperature range they have to be charged in. They catch fire are explode when the temperature gets too high when charging. You put a hot lithium battery on the charger the charger waits until the battery cools down before charging are if it has a fan, it will cool the battery that way. It's best to set the battery aside and let it cool down completely before charging.
Interesting information Jeff. Keep up the good work.
I agree it's important to understand exactly what we are buying. I think the fire risk is a bit overstated. My company uses thousands of devices using the Li-Po batteries and they are expanding and failing constantly, sometimes dramatically, but never (yet) smoke or catch fire. No doubt it's possible, but I don't think it's common. I'm more concerned about reliability than fire.
That's odd. I've never seen a lipo fail without huge flames. Are you sure you're not confusing "lipo" with "lifepo"? LiFePO4 will gas but rarely flame. Lipos spit giant flames the moment oxygen gets inside the pouch.
One point to consider is that Lithium polymer cells are used in almost all cellphones (energizer made one that uses 18650 I think), a lot of laptops, powerbanks etc. The issue comes if they are nit well protected and drained / chared with verry high currents. The 18650 cells have an over pressure fuse build into every cell, which disconnects the cell and vents the overpreassure while the metall housing protects from punctures. This is where a significant safty improvement comes from.
In my opinion, these batteries are just a cost savin attempt on devalts side, which comes with the downside of a lower lifespan (these pouche cells thed to expand and lose their capacity when used in high currend applications for a longer time).
My main concern would be how temperature affects the battery performance. I know my cordless tools get exposed to a wide temperature range during use outdoors in the summer vs the winter.
If you’re smart you’ll try to keep your tools at safe temperatures. Don’t leave them in your truck in the winter and don’t leave them in the sun in the summer simple. Take care of your tools. Also the power stack is amazing I love them
Batteries have more difficulty under hot conditions no matter the material they are made of.
Regardless of whether you are correct or wrong; I believe you are correct in questioning this. I am not a chemical engineer, nor an electrical engineer. I can’t speak on this, but I applaud you for raising this question. Thank you.
What people don't realize is every phone has lipo batteries and they've got them pretty safe.
I think your concerns are totally valid! LiPo batteries burn up all the time… and that’s installed in devices we’re all generally gentle with like phones, laptops, etc. Imagine how much higher the fail rate will be once they start getting banged around, and subjected to harsh working environments, etc. I think you’re entirely right to ask the question!!
That stuff has been blown out of proportion from the media, and the vast majority of those are probably from people charging at improper rates (not using the provided charger). Having a phone in the desert... in a car... with the windows rolled up. Btw they are far more likely to swell than catch fire. I literally stabbed one before and it did nothing. Not suggesting you do that. There are different LiPos. The powerstack isn't a LiPo btw. If this were a LiPo then it would be a concern because the charge/discharge rates would be much higher than a phone or laptop. It would also be physically subjected to far more.
I know my Makita chargers draw air through the battery as it charges them, and other mfgr's have some similar stuff.
At least the 18650's have space between them you can draw air through. These just seem like the layers in the middle are insulated by the surrounding ones.
I'm not sure how practical it would ultimately be, but a thermal transfer layer between each cell with some very mild heatsink application would solve most issues with heat.
I discussed this with my dad just yesterday. These are the style of battery that caused all those hoverboard fires a few years ago. I'm certain that the tech is safer now than it was then, and I'm sure that DeWalt and Flex (they leaked it about a day before DeWalt did through VCG) have done the due diligence to make these as safe and as stable as possible. However, I also feel that there will be some issues early on as companies and consumers work out the kinks. I like to be an early adopter on a lot of technology, but I'm going to wait this one out a bit.
Safety first
Imagine leaving a battery at a job site, the next day the job site burned down. Now the question is do you get paid to rebuild or do you work for free for starting a lipo fire
@@TheSirPotato they will be inspecting tradesmen with Lipo batteries before they let them into the jobsite
This is the same technology powering your cell phone.
@@PaulSteMarie yeah but cell phones don't draw anywhere near the amps
Lithium Bag batteries are really cheap, but cell failures due to heat are more common, and capacity is less than in the equivalent 18650 cells or bigger.
That and a 8% loss 📉 of battery life a year will not work for me.
So I got a set of 2.0 amp hour power stack batteries a few months ago through a large consumer store doing a limited promo. We've beat the crap out of these batteries and put them through countless charge and drain cycles. I can say for sure that they're more powerful than any Tool manufacturers 2.0 amp hour batteries and they drain at a slower rate. We've had zero issue so far even though they've been dropped from 30' roofs, smashed with lumber, left out in 20 degree weather overnight, etc. I see that RC car nerds are scared of similar batteries they've encountered in the past but DeWalt doesn't make RC cars - they make tools that you work with
Cylindrical cell can be nasty also. Look it up. As long as they retaining the cylindrical is good to have options.
good job Bear. Shine on
I read the SDS from manufacturer and doesn't mention anything about polymer. SDS also mentions sensitivity to mechanical impact or static discharge is none.
I have LiPo’s in lots of things. They are in my Garmin HPS units and are also in my IPads and I have never had them blow up or catch fire.😢
We fly our free style drones with lipo packs and it's delivers a high discharge rate, but if you over discharge it you ruin the pack or one of the cell will start to puff and thats end of your battery. And you know people using the power tools will run it till the last drop of power.. unless they build some type of voltage limiter in the battery packs.
man i have lenovo yoga 710-15ikb and the battery also expended need to change it 😒
Great review…👍..Did Dewalt mentioned if they will incorporate their 12v “Xtreme” batteries with “Power Stack”???
Lipo cells can be tuned chemically to have more or less current delivery, to have more capacity, or to be more stable. Phone batteries for example are tuned for stability and capacity, while drone batteries are tuned for current delivery, and sometimes capacity. I think it is best to store any lithium based battery in good temperatures, and to not keep it fully charged or totally discharged. The BMS will probably deal with these issues for the most part, but they will likely have more risk than cylindrical cells just because they don't have a hard shell. 18650 can blow up too if punctured or rapidly over charged, or getting too hot while fully charged.
To be fair, the phone in your pocket uses polymer batteries. If you aren't afraid of your phone exploding in your pocket, this shouldn't be any more concerning.
Except people don't just chuck their phone in the back of the truck at the end of the day.
@@denoftools very true but I've also dropped my phone numerous times. I'm certainly not saying there is no concern just seems a little overblown, but I also don't throw my tools around like that.
people leave them in direct sunlight with the screen turned on listening to music on RUclips until the phone is radiating heat at like 130 degrees, drop them regularly, and if that person is a mailman it'll be in their breastpocket next to their beating heart doing everything stated above
I am... well put simply, just not afraid of liPo anymore. Maybe a little bit back in 2009 when the G1 was finally succeeded by the Motorola droid but not nowadays
VCG construction, another youtuber i watch, recently did a video showing these batteries and the rep he was talking to specifically said these are not lipo pacs but a new design that was developed in conjunction with the cell manufacturer.
I ve had many batteries expand from drones, phones and power banks so I do not trust batteries that do not vent anymore
and the cells are fixed in place with padding in the case of a powerstack or a regular battery.
the self puffing is caused by external or internal damage or being fully or over charged for too long. the steel case of a li ion keeps it from puffing or being damaged easily.
Hey Bear, it`s good to be skeptical!!
The pouch type cells such as the ones used new Dewalt battery are used in cellphones, laptops, tablets. Several years ago they were used on those hand held jump starters that fit in your glove box. I am less concerned with cylindrical cells as they are less likely to combust, now they have the LiFePO4 that are supposed to be safer. Who knows what chemistry Dewalt is going with, hopefully, they made the right choice.
Yes, it is recommended that you keep an eye on your batteries during charging, which no one does. My 9ah flex volt batteries do concern me a little.
How are they going to manage the heat of the inner layers?A sheet of metal between to pull heat out?At least the space between cylindrical batteries allow some passive cooling.
As an IT guy I have seen the LiPo expansion a lot especially in all of our laptops that are like 2015 or newer. It's been. Headache for years, I have seen people with the same laptop work for years and no issues with the battery but I have also seen people with a new laptop for only a month and have the expansion issue. So it's just the luck of the draw when you are dealing with these kind of batteries
Had no idea thanks for the very good info.
I don’t think Dewalt would release sketchy batteries like those of the R/C world. That would open them up to liability from loss damage, and bad publicity. I am very familiar with R/C Lipos. I think where Dewalt lithium ion polymer batteries differ is the over discharge protection is built into the battery. Instead of relying on speed controllers or the charger’s circuitry like those R/C batteries. Damage to lithium cells is from over discharging below 3.2v per cell. Then attempting to charge a damage cell. The problem is the heat that gets created from having to overcome the internal resistance of the damaged cell. As long as the Dewalt battery case is strong to protect the cell packs and the cells don’t drop below 3.2v I think the fire danger is just as much a risk as the 18650 cells.
You don't think so? ARE YOU THAT GULLIBLE?
@@freedomliberty7611 The liability and bad publicity Dewalt would suffer if this battery medium was not safe and robust would be detrimental. That being said I hope they did the proper testing. Do these batteries have a UL certification?
@@freedomliberty7611 what are the inherent chemistry differences between lion and lipo again?
RC batteries do suffer from bad QC but they also are stressed way more than most batteries. I have a bunch of hobby batteries rated at 45C. That means discharging the battery fully in 80 seconds. That’s a huge ask for a reversible chemical reaction. If your battery lasts 10 minutes that’s a 6C discharge rate.
I’ve collected a collection of old laptop 18650s and one Samsung INR18650-22FU is rated at 2.2Ah. A 45C load is pulling 99Amps! Almost any battery will not be able to handle that but RC batteries are put through that… and do burn all the time.
Nothing I’ve read about lithium batteries leads me to believe that lipos are inherently less safe. What don’t I know?
As a firefighter I have seen some of the battery fires that have occurred, usually its because of a puncture of the outer skin of battery ( had this happen with apple battery) and also the cheap cells that do not have voltage regulation that can ignite while charging due to an over charge condition as they do not have the circuits to shut off properly. I just recently had a 40 volt Ryobi battery catch fire and ignite and explode at a home depot a couple of months back in the package. Now the unit was purchased at another store and returned to a different store and put back on the self so who knows if someone dropped it or swapped it for another battery and returned this one. So its like most things now adays for the convenience they are for the most part safe but things can and do go wrong.
the chevy Bolt uses pouches... nuff said. its a cooling issue. I agree... they moved to pouches which have inherent risk to market space and power savings. we had a bunch of surface laptops swell up because of the same cooling issues...
I can attest to the problem with Lithium-Ion Polymer batteries being some what prone to heating up and warping itself due to the heat. It happened to my Samsung phone which required me to replace the phone.
My brother is tired of me borrowing his weed eater. So, I decided to invest in the full line of Dewalt yard tools. I've been researching it all winter and finally decided on the 20v stack lineup of tools specifically because of the "new" battery technology. Glad I watched this video first. I'll wait another season and see how things develop. In the meantime I'll just buy him a 12 pack each time I borrow the weed eater.
I'll lend you my weed eater for a 6 pack
I’ve spent a lot of time in the RC world; namely aircraft. If this is in fact LiPo Tech, then you’re correct in that these potentially do create a safety risk: imagine a hot toolbox, dropping, etc. Puncturing any battery cell is bad, but a LiPo is even worse as they often short circuit and burst.
Also: Why so $ I wonder? This tech has plummeted in price since it has become so ubiquitous (granted not in the tool world). Seems they could offer more benefits for a cheaper price, then dominate the market.
Thank you for this.
Also, the same thing doesn’t just apply for Dewalt when it comes to lithium ion pouch batteries, you have the same issues with Milwaukee’s forge batteries, and the same problem for the flex batteries.
Jeff your spot on ive had a battery explosion at the R/C track while changing no joke it was like an M80 going off . Thanks for another great video thank you
The entire industry must eventually come to standard interfaces for battery packs.. all brands the same for a given voltage, and charging method.
I've always felt that it would be nice if all B&D brands used the same batteries.
Why would that do that? It's to their benefit to lock people into battery platforms, it would take some sort of government intervention to get that to stop.
be careful what you wish for
The EU has been able to do that for phone chargers in the past. Maybe we can benefit from a more consumer oriented government again.
Tell apple that
Lipo cells usually have issues with electrolyte seperator membrane failure causing an internal short circuit. The hard outer plastic shell of the drill battery should protect the pouches sufficiently from physical damage.
As a Drone pilot you must have seen Bardwells video about lipo batteries
Did flexvolx ever really take off for Dewalt ?
they had the 24 volt Gone
they had a 36 volt gone
they had the 40 volt gone
if they get rid off the flexvolt
they are killing their hole hawg and their 9'' cutt off saw, the miter saw and the table saw
there is no hope for this company
flexvolt is expensive but it does anger me that there low degree tools come with drills with 1.3 amp batteries
the industry standard is 4 amp but Dewalt is going to become a lost cause if they keep selling crap batteries
Thanks for the info. !
Lithium Ion polymer batteries are used in cell phones, laptops, tablets. The only time I head of this batteries exploding and creating fire are when they were used in the Samsung galaxy cell phones. Samsung did fix the issue so I am thinking this is a quality control issue. Lots of different companies in China produce this batteries with varying quality control. So it really depends on who produce them.
I was watching another vid earlier and they nailed this in one sentence, Marketers are liars. Their job is to sell.
I had one of their earlier 18v charger go batshit crazy and smoked, quite literally, 2 batteries. If this is going to be the direction they choose, I will choose other next time. I don't need that kind of excitement in my life, thank you.
Just the thought of a pouch as a battery is scary.
Thanks for the info I didn't even think of this. I will keep an eye out what was the bag info? Just incase
also if you put a li ion battery in a polymer pouch it would be just as volatile because it can be damaged easier, punctured, swell, crush or ignited. the polymer pouch does not offer as much protection as a steel case in the case of li ion.
Also the dcb203 is model number or product number of the 2 ah battery.
1. My power stack battery DOES have the wattage/aH/voltage info on it, I think you’re just not seeing it on the site - I kinda get this because not everyone would understand that the battery can deliver more power w certain specs. Not everyone uses ohms law/ batter knowledge when getting a tool 😂
2. The batteries actually can deliver more power at lower ratings due to the size of the +/- terminals with those flat batteries.
3. I have a good feeling that these batteries won’t be a safety issue because of the way they are ran. A LiPo battery in a computer runs at a completely different impedance and power rating than a power tool - also ppl tend to leave laptops plugged in all the time instead of letting their batteries naturally drain and recharge.
No matter if it’s a computer or a tool, batteries should never be left plugged in at all times, it’s not too good for them.
6 sony vtc5a can output 950W fully charged, I wonder how much these packs can output?
18650 batteries are Lithium polymer. The polymer is the electrolyte separator for the anode and cathode that allows the ions for flow back and forth (charge/discharge).
18650's (and all their various size cousins) differ in that they are in a "hard case" tube and are rolled. They have vent holes in the event of catastrophic failure (I know, because I have personally have had 18650's fail violently, and man the flames coming out of the vent on the 18650 was impressive). As with Jeff, I am an avid R/C pilot and have dealt with standard LiPo flat batteries. I have had several catastrophic failures over the years with flat LiPo batteries.
But the round and flat cells behave the same. The reason the R/C community and laptop, cell phones, etc. don't use the round cell version of a Lithium Ion battery is weight and size (Actually older laptops did use the round versions, long ago).
It's just that "everyone" (manufacturers) tend to get lazy and just leave off the "Polymer" when discussing Lithium Ion batteries. It's the same when discussing lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries. They still have the polymer gel to separate the anode and cathode.
There are electric car batteries that do use the flat version if Lithium Ion (polymer) batteries. But they encase the flat pack (usually 4 cells) in a metal case to prevent the "puff" issues of LiPo cells. When you start building a full pack of these, you have to use metal studs in each corner and torque them down properly to make sure they are "safe".
Tesla uses 18650's and puts them in a big metal case for double insurance. But they could have just as well used flat cells if they wanted.
Now if Dewalt takes the flat pack design and then works in a metal case around the cells with proper ventilation for failure they might have something. But then you are back to a "heavy" battery pack. Maybe if they do it with the molded case, it will be still light enough. But someone has to take one apart and see.
But there really isn't anything special that distinguishes the internals of a round cell verses a flat cell of a Lithium Ion (Polymer) battery. Round cells are just generally "safer" because of the metal encasing them.
The biggest issue is the battery management hardware/software. That is the most important part of dealing the Lithium Ion batteries. If you can monitor and manage the cell voltages properly they are quite safe. (Sorry but the R/C world is still lacking in that respects. We tend to push the limits of the battery trying to get every ounce of power and flight time out of the LiPo's. Which degrade them and we end up with more catastrophic failures than anyone else).
Thank goodness I'm well stocked on DeWalt 20V batteries with the 18650 and 21700 batteries. I hope DeWalt continues to see these as I will be avoiding the Power Stack batteries until they have established a long, safe, reliable track record. I simply do not trust the Li polymer technology as they eventually swell and fail (if your lucky) and catch fire if you're unlucky or inadvertently damage them (like dropping off your belt or work stand).
When I first saw the videos about the "new batteries" from Dewalt I too was scratching my head because as far as I knew there wasn't anything new under the Sun. Companies have been trying to make new better options for batteries, safer options. Tesla does not use the "flat packs" in their vehicle, but rather the typical cylindrical cells we typically see in our drills, that says a lot. I think you are correct about your concerns. The truth will come out.
Dewalt has since stated that they are not polymer/lipo
I've had 'pouch' cells 'puff up' in EVERY device I've ever owned - laptop, tablet, phone, AND watch! Can't see how this will be any different.
I see DANGER,DANGER,DANGER just like the robot on Lost In Space.
Im wondering if Dewalt add a layer of grafene in the batery
The batteries in your Moto are stacked lithium-ion polymer cells and you're not worried about it catching on fire. Virtually every portable power bank on the market is made with stacked LiPolys. As many others have pointed out, the chemistry difference is not why RC cells explode, it's because the packs and the use-cases don't include built-in circuitry to protect them, because the goal in RC is to draw as much power as possible as fast as possible, and because due to size/weight constraints they don't have a protective hard plastic case surrounding them. I have done many deep dives into RC batteries. As a 3D heli pilot, we beat our packs more than anyone in RC except maybe EDF fast jets (depending on which type of abuse one considers worse.) While they do (very rarely) fail while charging or even while resting, they virtually never fail without first showing signs of issues. The problem in RC is that most people don't monitor their cell health (checking IRs after every cycle, for instance.) The reason phones and power banks don't have the same rate of problems is because they don't drive the cells anywhere near as hard and they internally monitor cell health and regulate charge and discharge rates. All of those protective measures can, and should, be applied to power tool batteries.
I guarantee DeWalt is including as much protection circuitry as they reasonably can to ensure that they don't have a major PR problem from their batteries burning down shops and job sites. The hard plastic case will be plenty to protect the cells from all but that absolute worst kinds of abuse (running over with a skid steer or something), which would certainly damage cylindrical cells as well. The legal team at DeWalt is surely not keen on facing a class action lawsuit.
Here’s the thing about power stack it has a lot of power for the short runtime, this means the power stack will have more power when it has full 3 bars compared to your normal 2 AH. The first three bars power stack has about the same amount of power 4 ah, but it doesn’t retain power for very long. Also, the original power stack is considerably small, but 5 ah power stack it’s just a slight bit bigger than the 4 ah slim, but should pack the power of a traditional 9 ah when it has 3 bars.
the polymer is actually the polymer pouch that encases the battery's internals and they are more energy dense because they have more surface area. the electrolyte is actually a liquid. I've even opened up a Li ion and a lipo cell before they are basically the same
While I wasn't even thinking about the difference in battery chemistry, when I saw the picture I thought "what happens if you hit it hard enough with those soft packs?". Glad I'm not the only one.
It seems the biggest safety factor in lithium batteries is the electronics inside to discharge/charge the battery. There are millions of iPhones being dropped and thrown around, I don’t hear of many catching on fire (aside from QC failures). Would be interesting to see a tear down of the batteries when they come out
The same happened to my laptop battery and it was a dell.
I do like lipos. I use them in R/C a lot. But yeah, improper charge and discharge as well as punctures can cause fires.
I didn’t know that you had your part 107, that’s awesome. I’ve been meaning to get mine for a couple years.
The only parts that bothered me were the airport direction which is STUPID as I'm not flying at airports, lol.
Bear they can put different types of Chem in those cells. You can get lifepo4. It's common to find them in thos kinds of cells in a big car size battery form with thos inside. They may even be using lithium Cobalt batteries it's really hard to say what Chem they are using but for more power in a small package would think they are using lipos
I had a ryobi 4.0AH melt down just sitting on shelf not on charge or in tool. Just melted
As you were discussing this 'new' battery tech of DeWalt's...I couldn't help but thing of the problems Boeing had with the battery packs on the 787. Three major fires...one in-flight! One can only hope the yellow and black crew will give us the option on which battery tech we choose to buy. Shine on, Jeff! UncaWoody
I'll reserve judgement on performance until I actually use them.
Does it need a lipo charger or balancer?
we use these lipo cells in model aircraft , very high power density but they dont seam to last
From what I understand is lithium cobalt is the chemistry that explodes, where lithium iron phosphate is very safe. But pouch cells are easier to damage and cause a direct short than normal cells.
Bear good info I honestly never heard of polymer based batteries so a good indicator of things to come.
This video just scared me when my phone gets hot...lol
These have been used for RC planes for a long time now: 25 years or so. I’ve never had one burn up yet.
Chris -- I'm glad you've never had an RC battery burn up. Neither have I. So, what does that tell us about the safety and reliability of LiPo batteries? Answer: Next to nothing. The question is NOT whether it's possible for one or two people to use these batteries without problem. Instead, the question is whether these batteries are as safe and as reliable as the 'current' technology batteries.
I know someone who uses a folded up strip of aluminium foil to replace a fuse in his car. He's never had a problem with it. That doesn't make it a safe thing to do!
Only 25 years?
Do you crash your RC planes often? The concern with this technology in battery powered tools is they are by nature exposed to harsher conditions. Dropped from the waist level or higher(which is often part of tool durability tests), banging around in a tool bag/cart, batteries stored on the charger or even inside the tool by default, stored in non tempature controlled area, and the list goes on. What we've gotten away with using and storing our battery powered tools is not going to fly with these pouch style batteries.
@@DKWalser Thanks David for clarifying the question. My point on posting this bit of fact is really to say a couple of things. 1) The technology has been around the block a while. 2) Given the harsh conditions that they have to put up with in being utilized in planes they seem to have done ok even without a plastic jacket. 3) They get charged manually and there is more opportunity for setting up the correct voltage and amperage incorrectly. Will they do well in a power tool? My answer would be yes. Aluminum foil works pretty good as a 3 amp fuse. 🥂
Jeff wanted equal billing with the Bear, hee hee. Jeff does all the dirty work the Bear is cigars and cognac. We’re going to carrying around car batteries for this stuff. Seriously they can do better.
I remember when lithium batteries first came out for the Radio controlled flying hobby they had two types : lithium ion and lithium polymer. The lithium ion ones were considered more dangerous and have mostly been phased out. My experience with lithium polymer has not been good as far as them lasting very long and continuing to charge to the rated capacity. They also swell up fairly quickly and are considered Unsafe when they do but I’ve never had one take off on me. The instructions with the batteries tell you to not leave them at full charge for more than 24 hrs and they must be cycled once a month to maintain them. I have plenty of those fireproof bags for transport and storage but I charge them in a ceramic flowerpot with a brick on top just in case they take off. When soldering new connectors on the leads I accidentally shorted the leads once and the battery got unbelievable hot in a second. There is also a third type - lithium iron that is supposed to be more stable but I haven’t tried them yet. From all of this, I think these flat cell batteries are not up to the typical abuse that power tools see with the batteries being left at full charge all the time and getting banged around a lot.
I ordered a couple of LiPo cells for my helicopter and they came with a connector that I didn't need. Unthinkingly, I cut both wires at the same time on the first one. There was a puff of smoke and the helicopter never generated enough lift to get of the ground on that one battery (the other I treated properly and was fine). That from just a fraction of a second.
@@chaos.corner I accidentally touched both wires with a soldering iron putting a new connector on for a second and the battery got so hot you couldn't hold it. My guess is if you check the battery you will find one of the cells dead. Lithiums are very unforgiving.
@@scottyV1000 It was a single cell battery so yup, into the scrap pile.
I've been using LiPo batteries in radio control cars/trucks/planes/boats for about 16 years. In that time i have had one LiPo battery pack puff on me and ive seen at least 5 batteries actually catch fire due to a short or abuse. Yes there is a higher risk involved and the batteries require special chargers and balancers but they have gotten much better over the years. I believe dewalt has made a choice based on performance, safety etc. and have deemed them suitable for power tool use. I would be comfortable using them, and would charge them completely supervised and store them in a fire safe bag or container like i do with my R/C LiPo packs.
Not in application means similar to cars when they measured horsepower. Hp at the crank vs at the wheel.
Did you ever end up using these batteries? It's been over a year how have they held up over time and regular use? Thanks in advance.
If you want my guess... DeWalt is getting out ahead of future supply chain issues, shortages and bottlenecks in cylindrical cell production. There's probably plenty of pouch manufacturing machines open for production.
I think because they are in a sturdy plastic case, they'll be fine, provided there isn't any shifting between cells. Which there's always doubled sided tape on stacked cell pouches like that, from the many that I've seen over the years.
For everyone wondering the main difference between lipo and liion is the electrolyte used. Liion uses liquid electrolytes and, from what a representative said in the video of vcg, this battery uses a liquid electrolyte. Lipos uses "solid" electrolyte.
Dewalt Engineering: Should'nt we include Dewalt Legal on this Zoom call?
Dewalt Marketing: Naaah. They have too much going on.
Tool Bear: Hold my beer.
the powerstack has a protective case and s bms aka battery management system. normally an rc battery does not and the dewalt battery case is screwed together so the halves wont separate even if the cells puff so i don't think there is a problem
You know I am glad you brought up the leaving the battery on the charger overnight is a no no as I have a MSI laptop and Im sure it uses this technology and have left it on the charger overnight (mostly on accident) but good to know going forward really shouldn't do that
Overnight is perfectly safe actually if the device is already fully charged. The main time you shouldn’t leave it on the charger overnight is just when it’s charging as fires are most common by far (I believe something like 95% of such fires) with batteries and chargers when actively charging at high rates or when using the device and so you’re being asleep isn’t a great idea.
Edit: As an addition however if you do keep it off the charger make sure you turn it off fully, not just in sleep mode. This not only saves battery for the device but it also helps guarantee that if something happened and the device got wet or damaged you’d have a much higher chance of saving your data. A computer’s data can survive most anything nowadays as long as it’s powered off.
These same batteries are used in high end rc planes and cars batteries. They are high powered and great batteries, but, at least the batteries we use for rc, are known to be a bit finicky in the safely sector. We know that if charged wrong, discharged wrong, or stored wrong, it can cause a fire/light up. Idk what dewalt is using or doing, but if this is the same tech/battery type, then there’s a chance that if the user don’t know how to charge and discharge it correctly, it can light up as they are not the most stable batteries.
Pouch vs cylindrical are just a form factors. Most lithium chemistries are available in multiple variants of either format with pouch style's thin wall being more vulnerable to mechanical damage and expansion than cylinder-style's steel shell. The cell style shouldn't be an issue as long as the battery housing is designed to provide equivalent overall protection and account for cell expansion.