I have Makita battery packs that are around 10 years old and are just now dying off. I appreciate a tool that is somewhat dialed back and favors longevity. I would consider myself an above average weekend warrior, not a full time contractor so take my testimony for what it is.
Yea this is kind of like asking why your car does not have the performance it can have after some modifications. Sure it is faster, but also more expensive, and things may fail sooner. Building the ultimate tool on an unlimited budget is not that hard, keeping it reasonably priced and reliable is a lot harder.
Yeah agree, those batteries I bought for my first Makita drill about 12 years ago now, still work. Granted they may have lost some capacity over my new ones, but not to the point where I noticed which one is on any give tool.
@zorktxandnand3774 I personally can't use "Makita" and "reasonably priced" in the same sentence together, but I've had no reason to look at their lineup in a _very long_ time and have no idea of their current pricing, so what do I know?🤷
Makita is reasonably priced compared to other top brands the difference for me is repairability after the warranty is up. Milwaukee and the others made by the same Chinese company are mostly throw away tools since all the electronics are one piece and cost as much as the tool.
I build tool batteries for fun all the time for my landscaping business. Love molicel, however the 30t is my go-to, especially when needing every possible bean. Nickel copper sandwich connections will fix any overheating issues. Loving the next level science in your latest content 💪. I don't believe I have ever posted a comment on a video before but this one deserved it!
If you can afford it, the P45B test's better than the 30T in every way: max and continues discharge rate, capacity, lower internal resistance (lower temps), and even cycle life. Mad props to you for using the copper nickel sandwich method. what spot welder do you use?
@@rockenroosterthey have exactly the same temps on discharge and this same cont rating, but obviously molicels have larger capacity. They are also like 3-4 times more expensive lol
@@rockenrooster guess I should have said for a more readily available cell? I haven't come across any p42b cells yet and you are correct over the entire voltage of the cell from what I've read. Reads like the 30t is better with less sag at full charge or am I mistaken? Had a kweld but currently using a diy truck battery setup that is just as hilarious as it is effective
3/4 of my battery packs are self made super packs now. Definitely worth the effort on all brands. My Makita, DeWalt and Milwaukee all work way better than stock.
@@brandonsheaffer5035 The more cells in parallel, the higher you're able to keep the voltage. The higher you're able to keep the voltage the lower the amp draw the tool needs. The lower the amp draw the less heat put into the tool. I find my tools run nearly half as cool with self-made packs versus OEM packs.
@@brandonsheaffer5035 The larger battery case is usually $15. I then harvest cells from used packs, so the cost $15. Take 3 2.0 ah packs and make them into a 6.0ah pack. Or on my channel I've taken 2 4.0ah packs and just bonded them together into 8.0ah packs that last forever.
As a battery pack rebuild hobbyist (my wife doesn't understand) this is one of the coolest videos I've seen anyone do on the subject. I have rebuilt multiple M12 3-cell packs, but I think it's time to graduate to rebuilding my 4.0 M18s. The Molicel P45B and P28B are truly the business! Thanks for the great work!
@@benperkins2929 I might give that a whirl via an adapter to some Kobalt batteries I have. I think it would be too difficult using the stock battery enclosures.
As a contractor I can say that my Makita 5ah batteries work all day, every day. I haven't touched my milwaukee super sawzall, or mag 77 since i bought brushless makita tools. I also run Milwaukee m12 drivers and a drill as they fit in my belt perfectly, but I'm makita all the way otherwise. Also, like infants, you can only drop densely weighted electronics so many times before things start to go wrong.
Any reason you didn’t use one of those adapters to use different brand batteries with different tools? If nothing else, that could be a video on its own, testing to see if there’s any power loss or boost from swapping them around. Keep up the great videos y’all!
You guys go the extra mile to not only make great videos, honest tool reviews, real world comparisons, but you make simple improvements that produce great results! And it seems that tool companies are watching. Great job! Im waiting to see the dewalt flexvolt grinder tested!
Considering how much hay Ryobi seems to make keepin' on w nicad era battery compatibility but now doing the 21700 thing (hey, I switched from 14.4 Makita partly for that reason) this makes sense. I also love that the spot welder is a SeeSii.
Wow so glad you are doing custom makita batteries! I have made something similar with xgt ones, they have better pcbs abd build quality in general and I used cells that are even more powerful than original xgt ones. I have also used P45B in one pack, they are crazy. Just like P28B 18650s that are even more powerful and have more capacity than 25S. Speaking of which, they are used in metabo hpt's 2.5ah multivolt packs, and their equivalent vtc5a from murata/sony is used in xgt 2.5 so you basically made that pack :) Interesting to see that grinder gets so much more power from upgraded pack, I assumed lxt tools would be limited internally since makita doesn't make powerful 18v packs. Also in eu xgt tax is much much lower, with most tools only being just slightly more costly compared to lxt, but batteries are much costlier, that is why I made my own :D
Interesting thinking! Perhaps Makita believes that the tool should live longer than the battery. Thank you for your research into their batteries. I have used Makita since I was 12 years old with the old dog leg batteries which were the latest and greatest. Can't wait to experiment with what you have studied!
As a battery nerd, it hurt me to see you use those sad thin nickel strips on the tool battery at first, but got SO happy to see you DOUBLE STACK the 0.25mm strips using P45B's with a much better spot welder. My only compliant is not using the P28B's for the 18650 version as those blow the 25S's out of the water. The only thing better you could have done is either do the "copper nickel sandwich" method or TRIPLE STACK lol. This video also proves that it's not only about the battery cells inside, but the entire circuit design. The lower the resistance, the better. That's why they use monster thick copper strips (nickel plated i think), thicker wires inside the tool, and add extra contact points (see FLEX stacked batteries, Ridgid max output, etc). I myself redid an ancient Ridgid 3.0ah with P28A's, except I had a cheap spot welder and only 0.10mm of pure nickel. So I triple stacked it to get the most out of it with what i had. Ended up with a nice old/new 5.6ah pack for less than a new 4ah battery, cells and tools included. Freaking amazing video!
2:14 I dunno. As contractors and electricians we've been using them heavily for a decade and they've survived really abusive scenarios no problem. The first few batteries we bought are just starting to die after tens of thousands of hours of work.
Yeah that surprised me too. I've rarely heard of Makita batteries failing, and I still have the 17 year old batteries from my dad's pack, albeit they're a little tired and don't have star protection on them. I truly wonder what some of these guys do to brick their batteries.
I can't understand why this channel doesn't have millions of subscribers?? I wont purchase a tool now till I come here first to see TTC's choices and tests on tools... Thanks Guys for all your hard work informing the masses...
I made a pair of 9.0Ah Makita batteries several years ago by 3D printing a spacer to allow for a triple stack of 15 Samsung 30q 18650’s (just made the battery about 20mm taller). They are great! Use them all the time especially with the 18x2 (36v) chainsaw, the extra capacity makes a huge difference to the usefulness and there is definitely more amperage available with less voltage sag. Really wish Makita would make official 9Ah batteries.
Planning on making a 20 cell 5S4P 14Ah battery using "EVE INR18650-35V 3500mAh - 10.2A", I think should end up being a pretty good deal at around 75 euro. What do you think?
Awesome video! If used one of those battery adapters to run a M18 high output on my Makita tools how close can I get to the results of the crazy homebuilt Makita battery? Keep up the great content.
Also dewalt batteries on the Makita? Basically what batteries SHOULD I buy with a battery adapter to make up for the poor battery options for my makita tools.
i know people with makita batteries and some tools that are over well 10 year old and get dayley use still going strong. the old ones dont have level indicator lights and dont seal to much worse than a new one
Thanks for this video! I miss our Lear Jet 8. My dad had one in 1970; sadly it died shortly after he did several years later. We used it in the living room, versus a portable.
Maybe Makita can keep it simple and just offer their current batteries alongside some new pouch cell batteries. This seems like a logical next step for the LXT battery line. Great episode! Lots of good info and a witty script. Especially interesting to me as I own/use a lot of DeWalt 20v and Makita LXT tools.
@@TorqueTestChannel You guys should grab some nice FPV drone lipos and make a really powerful external battery just to see how far some of these tools can go with max amps. I can easily pull 150-200amp burst and 100amp constant at 18-20v.
Where did you get that from?. You can change one cell, people do this all the time when repairing faulty batteries. You just need to make sure you test and charge them all up before putting pack back together in order to maintain the balance. Yes, it's not as perfect as having all new cells together but it's acceptable.
The LXT line can definitely use the larger cells... with the caviate that might not work with the 18v x2 or some other rare cases; but it would be great for long run tools like the lights and fans. Don't know if I'd like the extra lbs of batteries on the end of a drill, but saws and grinders would be okay. they could also do a redesign of future tools to accept all the larger packs for the x2 line up. my only thought of a non marketing reason for this not to have been done yet is the charger. It might not be rated for more than an hour of rapid charging. Charger has 2~way communications, it could put the battery in fault mode if it doesn't charge up as expected (like taking 2hrs vs 45mins to charge).
Two points.. please put insulation strips on the positive side. With the connector heating up it can melt the jacket and touch the live case. Then you have a fire.. Remember the bms is also a limiting factor. At some point it wont matter how powerful the cells are tbe bms will be the bottleneck
I thought the 10ga wire was gonna be an issue. Even at 10C there will be 90 amps coming out of that pack, I can guarantee that wire will be getting warm. Milwaukee 12ah packs will toast the terminals in the 9" cut off saw, that tool will pull more than 100amps.
I don't think there's any bms on that 21700 battery kit. No balance connections and looks like the output is connected straight to the batteries. Perfect house/shop burner if you ask me.
Makita also can't make 15 cell batteries because of how they do cell balancing during charging. That kept them above the competition on charge speed for a long time. They've kept the same platform since 2005 though, so that is very impressive even if we're stuck with 18650s now. I'd also be pretty careful with those Aliexpress circuit boards. There is a reason why they're half the size. Do they even do cell balancing?
They can do 15, or 20 or whatever, they just don't want to. Once you connect 3 cells in parallel with fixed connection, they become one big cell and it is balanced the same way. btw old lxt packs didn't even have balancing at all, they relied on Sony's excellent manufacturing tolerance and made sure that all cells have the same capacity so they don't go out of balance. Also yeah lxt casing from ali are not that good, but they do have models with larger pcbs with balancing, and xgt ones are much better all in all, I use them a lot. Edit - I like how the comment with misinformation gets most upvotes, you guys really believe anything right?
Yeah +1 on what Riba said, cells are (and should be) balanced in parallel so total number doesn't matter unless you change the number of groups in series
I have noticed that makita batteries, even though lower A/H, will last longer through the same job compared to Milwaukee with higher A/H comparable tools. And you really can't beat makitas charge time. I wish the rest of the industry would help develop battery technology. We've hit a point where all the tools are strong enough for their given applications and very close, but what matters is how many time you have to stop and charge or switch batteries and the extra fatigue from carrying bigger and heavier batteries to avoid that.
well said. agree the overall quality of makita batteries/charge times is significantly better than other brands. i just wish makita made a small lighter batter with a bit more punch
makita has 40v now. lxt doesn't need an upgrade as its meant more for quality. the fact their tools and batteries work after 10-11 years of pure abuse is amazing. putting milwaukee under the same abuse as we use both brands makes them last around a year if not less. makita batteries more or less only fail on a dead short circuit inside a tool or being water damaged. meanwhile milwaukee kills cells, goes into constant overheat alert or physically snaps apart
Great episode! I've been wanting to swap the 3ah cells in my high output milwaukee battery's for the new molicel p45b, mainly wanting to see slightly longer runtime, and also swap some Nee p28b cells into a dead 4.0 M12 battery great info on this video!
I've done this. Honestly the molicels don't last under the demand. 6-12 months and they have lost much of their capacity. If you are looking for maximum power, the Samsung 20S is what you're looking for. It's awesome. Nothing touches it.
8:46 they already know this, and they definitely have a nice graph showing how life expectancy stays mostly flat up until you beef up the battery as you just did, perhaps they left a 10-20% buffer zone for future "upgraded" tools, but you have no idea if you simply filled that up or went beyond it and your tool will burn out within a month
Yeah, I don't know if this is him hyping his vid or just arrogance. All the major brands would have pretty extensive data on how their motors, ESCs, and batteries hold up under different power levels, duty cycle, temperature, etc.
Pouch Cells (aka stacked lithium) would be a good alternative, since they would allow makita to keep the formfactor and 18x2 compatibility. And while the max output of round cells has gotten better pouch cells can drive much higher currents (I've got som with a 93c discharge rate pushing almost 100A out of an 1Ah cell -> ~450A from a 5 Ah cell). That would be mone ten enough. And active balancing would allow for really fast charge rates. The only drawbacks would be a little bit lower life expectanca and maby lower energy densiti meaning reduced total capacity.
No need for puch when there are more powerful 18650's compared to ones they use (as demonstrated in this video, and even more powerful ones exist). But many tools are limited internally so it wouldn't help much.
Also, durability/safety. Dewalt is only lightly stepping their toes in this water and many of the others are staying away for a reason. The cylindrical cells have proven themselves to be exceptionally safe even when badly treated by all kinds of manual-labor gorillas. A fat pouch in a thin plastic case is a ticking timebomb in comparison.
@@bnasty267 As someone who has slammed non-cased pouch batteries at 80mph into concrete and the battery is now a third the thickness it was before I started with no fire. I'm pretty confident pouch cells will be fine for construction use. Pouch cells normally fail from excessive load, overcharging or overheating. Tools have over current cut offs and the batteries have thermal cut offs so everything should be safe.
makita has a mac charge/discharge cycle limiter as well, in japan they have a tool available that looks kind of like a charger that reads the chip in each battery and will tell you how many cycles its experienced
Those Molicel P28A & P42As are HOT cells for sure. I've considered doing this exact thing before for curiosity's sake...But just didn't see the point in spending that kind of money to find out. Happy to see it here! SUper interesting
@@J.Wick. yeah I agree and I bought the molicels. The A's then the updated B's. But I would take a Sony at double the price any day. That's for my application and just my opinion.
@@take1one The P45B is the undisputed king of 21700's right now, verified by Mooch. Also Sony VTC5's are 18650 not 21700 so you should be comparing it to the P28B which handily beats the VTC5 too in all aspects: max and continuous discharge rate, capacity, lower internal resistance (lower temps), cycle life, and is cheaper than the entire line of VTC series batteries.
@@take1one yeah yeah, understand. I'm not debating battery brand supremacy lol.. I've better things to do as deep you I'm sure. If that works for you, rock on. I'll have to check them out. Being Sony, I would expect nothing but the best, but they're priced like a Sony as well. Cheers. 🫡
Mine neither, and where I would they are 36v tools that do plenty fine with the two 5ahs, which is in reality 10ah if it were 18v. I do think Makita will be vindicated with XGT, and i saw a patent this morning where it seems they are coming out with a 40v adapter to charge on 18v battery chargers.
Of course it works. But what about the unseen cost of possibly burning up a lot of older tools with these extra amps? Not sure if the tool protection circuitry was all that great when a lot of their 18v stuff came out. In my opinion, it would be a HUGE mistake for Makita to risk burning up trusted tools with a higher output battery. But that'd make a good video to test tool protection when Clyde Simpleton sits on the same lug nut for several minutes uninterrupted. haha! Makita has probably done the best job of drawing the line, albeit due to their own shortsightedness in sizing tools based on the 5ah pack footprint. They saw that they were close to the limit on 18v and the advantages of higher tool voltage. But they continue to produce new tools in both 18v and 40v platforms that are adequate to suit their customer's needs. I know the channel is all about the beans, but the vast majority of users just don't need all those beans. There is a market for beans, of course. But Makita and Milwaukee both cash in on platform tool variety. It's hard to switch, or add another platform to your inventory for 100 ft/lbs that you probably already have in your shop with air tools for that rare occasion that you need it. My analogy on this subject: Just because the speedometer goes to 120mph doesn't mean you should DRIVE at 120mph. The real elephant in the room is where does Milwaukee go with 18v? My opinion is that they have already gotten 99.5% of the juice out of the 18v lemon. And they did some unbelievable engineering in the process. But MX Fuel is too big for handheld tools and a bridge too far for most users. They are already going where they scoffed at Makita for: Dual pack tools. Now what Milwaukee? For the record, I'm happily, and heavily invested in BOTH Milwaukee and Makita's 18v platforms. They do what I need them to do, and they do it well. There are very few of them that get taxed heavily. And those are mostly M12 tools that I reach for most due to their lighter weight and small tool box footprint. I can just carry more of them. So it'd take one amazing, must have for me to even think about going to a 3rd high power platform. Don't get me wrong, this is a great video! Well done on the battery packs and the showing the evidence. Anyway, keep up the great content.
I think Makita are going to be vindicated when different battery form factors and chemistries come out. In a recent patent they show a battery concept with stacked cells, so it may be on the horizon. However I totally agree with you about most people not needing max beans. Hot rods and muscle cars exist with max speed, but they are loud and shake all over; and massive trucks exist for load and towing capacity, but most people own a sedan or a small SUV to get done 99% of anything they need to do. Makita have given users the fast and strong line in XGT, and for those that have the Hot rod and truck in the driveway in addition to the family vehicle, that's there for them. Makita is the family vehicle though. Our dads had it, and many guys grandfathers had it as well. It's reliable, comfortable, and user friendly. There's a reason Makita is the only company that owns itself as well as makes all its tools for itself, yet they cooperate with other brands for consumable and blade tech like Starlock and XLock. New attachment standards take time, but Makita is often on the forefront of it.
I think these fears are unfounded. I run big Flexvolt batteries on my pre Flexvolt Dewalt tools all the time, and I absolutely thrash my tools. No issues, just more balls and more runtime.
25r's used to be the standard in vape stuff a few years ago but the sony vtc6 was the better choice with 3000mah and 30 amp discharge per cell. But they were more expensive at the time. Now in my ebikes, I use low discharge cells like 7 amp ones but add many in parallel.
I love hacking batteries (so long as safety precautions are made), I made an M12 battery that uses a lipo battery from an RC car, between the 5x higher current output combined with the 14.8v it is roudy
I like all your videos. I have many Milwaukee, Dewalt and Makita tools. They're all very close in terms of performance, but I generally find Makitas to be more reliable. The batteries are the weak link. However, a far easier solution is to just use a battery converter to run Mikwaukee and Dewalt batteries on my Makitas.
Tools&stuff mentioned on several occasions that makita won't be improving the lxt 18v batteries. I haven't found a source for that, but I didn't look hard. And the price difference between lxt and xgt is quite massive for some tools.
@@TorqueTestChannel I don't know if this is true, but I think the claim is that for high RPM torque tools like angle grinders, the motors really benefit from the higher volts. I know volts is just one factor for power, but all the top battery powered angle grinders are ones whose platforms are on higher volt ranges. Perhaps you can see if a bean'ed up LXT angle grinder and outperform an XGT?
Makita doesn't chase power like the others. They are Japanese. Makita always gets the job done, smoothly, quitely and efficiently, they are into comfort, light weight and ergonomics. They are the Toyota of tools. In my country Makita dominates. Almost all professional tradesmen use Makita. The ones who bought Milwaukee and Dewalt end up switching to Makita over time. The reason is that here, Makita is cheaper, and so much more reliable it's not even a contest. And they are much more comfortable to use. I'm a former Dewalt guy. Dewalt tools are rough. Really it starts to wear you down when you use them every day.
It's interesting to see the different curves on that 15 second run right at the very end, the 3/4 Makita still has quite a steep curve indicating it is still making more torque, whereas the Milwaukee has started flatten out quite a lot. Would of been interesting to see if it flattened out at the 20s mark. It wouldn't surprise me if the Makita made more power than the Milwaukee after 20 seconds.
I'm all-Makita LXT. Frankly, if they made the batteries too chunky to fit in my x2 tools, no big deal. Just extend the ConnectX line to break out an x2 tool into x2 big-LXTs on a belt clip or something. The landscape tools already need a ConnectX to be usable anyway.
I'm just waiting for a 40v to LXT belt converter to come out, but I suspect it won't. The PDC01 is awesome, but it would be nice to have a single battery XGT adapter with a cord and a slim dummy battery for the LXT tools like the 18Vx2 connectx adapter, but that may cannibalism sales from XGT. The other way would be difficult: 2 lxts to a 40v adapter. It would have to be on some sort of swivel base I feel to accommodate the various ways a 40v battery slots into certain tools, or have 2 batteries on a belt clip and a cord. They've come out with extension leads o get the weight off the tool, but not many guys use them. If they made the extension lead for an LXT to XGT adapter, it would make me get into XGT tools, and the batteries would then follow as I'd be justified to getting the kits and batteries. This would be an effective "baton pass" where at a certain point both LXT and XGT have an overlap.
You guys should look into what people are doing for electric skateboard batteries haha, we've been rocking molicel 21700's for quite awhile with stuff like braided copper series connections, and pushing some serious power out of these cells.
I just did a project like this yesterday and today, no torque numbers, but I had knockoff milwaukee batteries that no longer charged, so I put molicel p28a 18650s in them. I now know I might want to get thicker plates than the ones that came with the seesii spot welder I got...
Sons of dishes this vid platform ticks me off sometimes. I haven't seen a video of yours in my subscription feed in months, and now to find out you've been putting it out a ton of vids. I absolutely hate notifications, but I guess I need to turn them on in order for them to show your vids. Keep up the great work good sir!
@@TorqueTestChannel I'm getting the feeling they want to have the Algo determine what's being fed to their users just like Tic-tac. But I definitely agree, I don't think it will change anytime soon.
@@WhenTheManComesAround Correct, they just want to feed you X subject matter you last clicked on. Not necessarily the latest from a creator you follow. Which is why if said creator makes something even slightly removed from what they're already doing YT shows it to basically no one.
I'm just here sitting in my apartment, only with a brushed 18v rigid drill/driver and impact driver combo with 2 1.5 amp batteries. I also have my daily apartment driver, an 8v NoCry electric screwdriver.
Their circ saw shown here takes two LXT packs and therefore doesnt fit 21700 packs side by side. And this grinder requires more watts to run than their LXT drill.
I have various makita lxt tools and 4 and 5ah battery packs. Really glad you’ve made this video because a few have started to go so I’ll be able to rebuild/ upgrade them.
xgt batteries are also quite a bit bigger than the lxt so i'm not even gonna go to xgt ever. i just made a realization that makita could change the orientation of the cells and get 21700 cells in there. would make the pack a bit longer but still compatible with all the lxt tools
Pretty sure they didn't bother making anything beyond what they have because of XGT. Obviously it's a different set of batteries AND tools, but that was kind of the point. Also, the crazy Dewault packs and the like are a little ridiculous to even consider holding/storing/using.
You can get 45amp output 21700 cells. A friends currently converted a ryobi dremil that take a proprietary battery aka and 18650 with a shell on it, new brushless motor and motors driver. Things a mini angle grinder
Hi there, From a technical/nerdy point of view I get it that a brand can do some improvement but as long as I'm concerned being a contractor it doesn't really matter. I mean of course tools have to be efficient, fast and reliable which all professional brands kind of are. So once you've chosen a brand you basically stick to it. We work on Makita for 5 years but it could have been Milwaukee would've been the same. As carpenters in Europe we use a lot of impact drivers and drills with big screws. We have to cut big chunks of wood with any saws and the job gets done really great on those 18V. I don't really see why we should buy those huge costy batteries. In 5 years of daily use only 2 of 20 batteries went off. At that price it's pretty insignificant 🤷🏼 Great channel by the way 💪
Great video & especially testing methodology. 👍 I’ve been building 18650 Molicel & Samsung cell packs for my Milwaukee M18’s for years and LOVE the extra beans they provide over stock Milwaukee packs. I’ve been building pouch LiPo cells for over 15 years for our RC planes & in the last 8 years, our racing drones, so am planning to do the same to all my Milwaukee tools if I can ever find the time. Talk about spicey! LiPo is just a little too dangerous for most people however.
I have 10 year old 4ah makita batteries that have no noticeable performance drop at all. Also when cold out makitas batteries don’t stop working as some others do (dewalt, Bosch)
I'm fairly sure Makita knows that bigger batteries will give them more power. They also know that LXT has had several layers of duct tape added to it since 2005. Bigger cells would need another layer of duct tape in the form of bigger mosfets and probably a heatsink in the battery. Eventually you're better off starting from scratch, which is what XGT is. There is no XGT tax. In EU, AU/NZ, Asia, the XGT equivalents are the same or slightly more than LXT. What you're seeing is crazy price competition in the US amongst retailers. So US LXT prices are probably very low margin, but Makita are unwilling to discount XGT because they can make much better money off it from the rest of the world.
I had a garage full of LXT tools...and had a desire for smaller tools. I ended up with a M12 propex tool for some work on the house and that just served to be an intro into Milwaukee. I've since made some new tradesman happy with a ton of cheap blue tools and batteries...but frankly I wish I didn't need to have dumped Makita. I'll admit that I think Milwaukee did a great job of making M12 and M18 tools and chargers that once you buy anything M18....well hey now you have a M12 charger too! Just need to go buy some M12 stuff. They need to drop support for the LXT X2 tools (or just asterisk them) and be done with it. It's a horrible excuse today to skip better battery cell sizes. It was a horrible excuse 5 years ago too.
can you test some of the #makita tools using adapters to run the last ridgid or dewalt batteries? I would love to see a AC840080 or a DCB609G powering Makita Impacts or Grinders. I bought an adapter set from aliexpress to allow me to use my AEG batteries on my Makita tools and visa versa.
I've used 18650 cells for my vape stuff for years. Nothing compares to the Sony/Murata VTC line of batteries and nothing compares to the amount of cycles you can put thru these. My Sony vtc5 batteries get charged daily for the last 4 years and have out lasted any Sanyo, LG, Samsung, or other brands I have used over the years. I would love to know how they would do in a power tool battery pack. 8 or so years ago Sony stopped making them for the public to purchase and was selling them for use in the Toyota Prius but later partnered with Murata to continue making them for public use. If you search the web , you will find that flashlight fans and Ex-smokers(vapers) have rated these as the most reliable over the last 8 to 10 years.
I am using the vtc5A cells for Makita as well as for Metabo in small 2,6Ah Packs with 5 Cells. The performance is really great and alows me to do lots of work with the lightweight batterys.
Murata purchased Sony's battery division several years ago. They were known as Sony Murata during the transition, but now they're just Murata. That's why you can't get Sony brnaded cells anymore as they are now Murata. Makita uses Murata a lot, all XGT batteries use Murata cells.
@EliotTruelove they could definitely do a higher capacity slim pack without risking overdriving the tools. Either 2.5ah if staying with 18650s, or 4ah with 21700s. The option to do a 2.5ah has been there for several years, so I don't think it's likely.
Ya I know Makita makes some good stuff but I was told to avoid because of their batteries… apparently you get 2 “strikes” (over discharge, over temp, etc) and the circuit board shuts you down permanently!
thats a load of crap. In 11 years of daily use with Makita I have only had 2 batteries die on me. Know alot more guys running milwuakee with failed batteries.
I own Makita tools, because my father had Makita tools. He built the house I grew up in with a Makita 7.2 NiCD screw gun. My Grandfather used Makita. That being said, I'm pretty sure I'm the average Makita customer. I don't care what Team Red or Team Yellow are doing. They do everything I need and will for the next 20 years.
Exactly this team blue yellow teal is bullshit. My grandfather had been a contractor since the 80’s. He used Makita cordless drills. Black and decker corded drills. Milwaukee sawzalls and a skil saw worm drive saw. For almost anything. He didn’t care about the color or name. He only cared who made the tool well. I think the only thing he retired from that list was the Makita drills before getting new ones.
Makita just doesn't make as good of tools as other brands. And they charge more than milwaukee in most cases but are nowhere near the quality. They have to use 2 18v batteries to make the same power than M18 and 20v tools do. Kinda sad actually.
@@brody2642same, we bounce back and forth between yellow and red. When ever I need a new tool I look and see who makes the best of that specific tool and buy it. If I’m buying a tool with a cord then it doesn’t matter who makes it to me.
@@justinrisley8466 Their tools work just fine and are completely reliable. I literally have a two boxes of dead Milwaukees and Dewalts as work. I'd argue their tool's quality is probably better the red ryobi's or yellow black and deckers. That's why Makita is still one of two independant tool manufacturer's left (The other being Hilti) What Makita doesn't do is bother with the one upmanship. My impact drives every fastener I put on it, my saw cuts everything I put it to. Are they the most powerful? No. But they'll work perfectly the next 25 years.
I found this interesting and very funny at the same time because we LXT users know that we can get after-market 9.0Ah batteries for years. And for less than any battery that size by any manufacturer. The big mystery is why Makita themselves never offer their battery in this format. 😕
You've misunderstood the point of this video. They and most do know you can buy aftermarket 9ah batteries for Makita and other brands. Those aftermarket ones often have lower quality batteries than the ones used here. They work just fine but the quality and amps these particular batteries put out is among the highest you can at 21700. Just to be clear, ah doesn't equal more power, it means higher battery capacity, infact, if a 9ah uses bad quality batteries it can cause a tool to have less power.
I have seen adaptors where you can use different brand batteries on different brand tools. I have no experience with them. Check into it see if they actually work.
I have a Milwaukee nailer I spraypainted RustOleum Lagoon, which is a slightly bluer teal than Makita, and I run it on a battery adapter. It's brilliant, and id highly recommend it.
I posed this questions to you several months ago since 21700s are so spicy, glad to see some positive results. So when it comes to LXT batteries dying I've heard of 2 solutions and have successfully done the easy one myself. The easy way, how I saved a 2 AH pack, is use two pieces of 16 gage wire and jump start it with another pack for about 10 seconds, then put it on the charger immediately. If it works it should just start charging. The 2nd was is a battery reviver I've seen online that trickle charges a battery over a couple days, the rate of success is supposed to be higher with that but it's a couple hundred dollars so you better already have like 10 batteries to even justify buying it
My makita batteries have lasted a loooong time under daily contractor abuse so I have no complaints about quality. I believe the 4ah battery has the most output wattage at 1000 and the 5 and 6 ah batteries only go to 760 watts due to the types of cells. I know this is an old post but I am just getting around to it. nice work making the beans!
5:53 current doesn't work the way you've describing. In your case, because there are two cells in parallel, your theoretical maximum current will be 10a higher (5a from each cells connected in parallel)
What thickness nickel did you use with the first cells that burned up? I'm trying to figure out the minimum thickness that i can use to get away with using a cheaper spot welder.
This is EXACTLY the kind of experimentation that I like to see from you guys.Great job!.
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Nice video. A year later we could go with Molicel INR21700-P50B 5000mAh - 50A or Sony / Murata US18650VTC6 3120mAh - 30A :)
I have Makita battery packs that are around 10 years old and are just now dying off. I appreciate a tool that is somewhat dialed back and favors longevity. I would consider myself an above average weekend warrior, not a full time contractor so take my testimony for what it is.
Yea this is kind of like asking why your car does not have the performance it can have after some modifications.
Sure it is faster, but also more expensive, and things may fail sooner.
Building the ultimate tool on an unlimited budget is not that hard, keeping it reasonably priced and reliable is a lot harder.
@zorktxandnand3774 I hear what youre saying but I'm still gonna put a turbo on it.
Yeah agree, those batteries I bought for my first Makita drill about 12 years ago now, still work. Granted they may have lost some capacity over my new ones, but not to the point where I noticed which one is on any give tool.
@zorktxandnand3774 I personally can't use "Makita" and "reasonably priced" in the same sentence together, but I've had no reason to look at their lineup in a _very long_ time and have no idea of their current pricing, so what do I know?🤷
Makita is reasonably priced compared to other top brands the difference for me is repairability after the warranty is up. Milwaukee and the others made by the same Chinese company are mostly throw away tools since all the electronics are one piece and cost as much as the tool.
I build tool batteries for fun all the time for my landscaping business. Love molicel, however the 30t is my go-to, especially when needing every possible bean. Nickel copper sandwich connections will fix any overheating issues. Loving the next level science in your latest content 💪. I don't believe I have ever posted a comment on a video before but this one deserved it!
If you can afford it, the P45B test's better than the 30T in every way: max and continues discharge rate, capacity, lower internal resistance (lower temps), and even cycle life.
Mad props to you for using the copper nickel sandwich method. what spot welder do you use?
@@rockenroosterthey have exactly the same temps on discharge and this same cont rating, but obviously molicels have larger capacity. They are also like 3-4 times more expensive lol
@@rockenrooster guess I should have said for a more readily available cell? I haven't come across any p42b cells yet and you are correct over the entire voltage of the cell from what I've read. Reads like the 30t is better with less sag at full charge or am I mistaken? Had a kweld but currently using a diy truck battery setup that is just as hilarious as it is effective
@@riba2233 Dang that sucks, where I live 30T's are just 30% cheaper so the P45B's are actually a better value for me ($7 vs $10 each).
@@richardfrancisco2439 For me the P45B is more readily available than the 30T. There are no P42B cells only P42A.
3/4 of my battery packs are self made super packs now. Definitely worth the effort on all brands. My Makita, DeWalt and Milwaukee all work way better than stock.
Have you toyed around with a superpack at 24v? 6S2P configuration with P45B molicels? Be interesting to see how that performs.
Have you killed any tools yet?
@@brandonsheaffer5035 The more cells in parallel, the higher you're able to keep the voltage. The higher you're able to keep the voltage the lower the amp draw the tool needs. The lower the amp draw the less heat put into the tool. I find my tools run nearly half as cool with self-made packs versus OEM packs.
@@sixtyfiveford what was the cost to build the packs?
@@brandonsheaffer5035 The larger battery case is usually $15. I then harvest cells from used packs, so the cost $15. Take 3 2.0 ah packs and make them into a 6.0ah pack. Or on my channel I've taken 2 4.0ah packs and just bonded them together into 8.0ah packs that last forever.
As a battery pack rebuild hobbyist (my wife doesn't understand) this is one of the coolest videos I've seen anyone do on the subject. I have rebuilt multiple M12 3-cell packs, but I think it's time to graduate to rebuilding my 4.0 M18s. The Molicel P45B and P28B are truly the business! Thanks for the great work!
Have you considered trying to overvolt some by running 6 P45B in series?
@@benperkins2929 I might give that a whirl via an adapter to some Kobalt batteries I have. I think it would be too difficult using the stock battery enclosures.
I have a 3.0 Makita battery I bought new in 2008 that still holds a good charge and that I still use. It's 15 years old now, lol.
As a contractor I can say that my Makita 5ah batteries work all day, every day. I haven't touched my milwaukee super sawzall, or mag 77 since i bought brushless makita tools. I also run Milwaukee m12 drivers and a drill as they fit in my belt perfectly, but I'm makita all the way otherwise. Also, like infants, you can only drop densely weighted electronics so many times before things start to go wrong.
Any reason you didn’t use one of those adapters to use different brand batteries with different tools?
If nothing else, that could be a video on its own, testing to see if there’s any power loss or boost from swapping them around.
Keep up the great videos y’all!
I would love to see that test.
@@dinen5557they just made a video about that...
As an owner of of a large inventory of LXT tools, this is VERY informative.
Thank you!!!
Amen, brother! Thanks! Majority of my tools are LXT.... XGT is like changing to another brand.... I can't justify it.
Great experiment...
you guys ever think of building one of those giant custom LIPO packs with like 1ga wire to a remote M18 cassette just to have a fire?
We're working on a backpack or sorts with jumper cables if that counts
@@TorqueTestChannel exactly what I am talking about! I should have known better.
The trash panda is onto something here
You guys go the extra mile to not only make great videos, honest tool reviews, real world comparisons, but you make simple improvements that produce great results! And it seems that tool companies are watching. Great job!
Im waiting to see the dewalt flexvolt grinder tested!
This is an awesome episode. I love you show us what we could get if they would update the batteries. Keep up the amazing work!
Holy shit!!!!!! very nice. This is one of my favorite channels. You guys are the truth.
This is one of your best videos ever. Stepping outside the box is super interesting and just plain cool. Thanks for the video!
i always like makita LXT, its cheap to build, and using sony VTC 6A 3000mah cell battery for me is enough for just home user
Considering how much hay Ryobi seems to make keepin' on w nicad era battery compatibility but now doing the 21700 thing (hey, I switched from 14.4 Makita partly for that reason) this makes sense. I also love that the spot welder is a SeeSii.
why is the circuit board of the 21700 pack in website that you show is different to what you use. they are totally different even the case
Wow so glad you are doing custom makita batteries! I have made something similar with xgt ones, they have better pcbs abd build quality in general and I used cells that are even more powerful than original xgt ones. I have also used P45B in one pack, they are crazy. Just like P28B 18650s that are even more powerful and have more capacity than 25S. Speaking of which, they are used in metabo hpt's 2.5ah multivolt packs, and their equivalent vtc5a from murata/sony is used in xgt 2.5 so you basically made that pack :)
Interesting to see that grinder gets so much more power from upgraded pack, I assumed lxt tools would be limited internally since makita doesn't make powerful 18v packs.
Also in eu xgt tax is much much lower, with most tools only being just slightly more costly compared to lxt, but batteries are much costlier, that is why I made my own :D
Interesting thinking! Perhaps Makita believes that the tool should live longer than the battery. Thank you for your research into their batteries. I have used Makita since I was 12 years old with the old dog leg batteries which were the latest and greatest. Can't wait to experiment with what you have studied!
what diy pack did you use? in this video he show the diy pack have bigger pcb, different case but the one that he used is the old 21700 diy pack type
I'm amazed the BMS inside these packs isn't the "evil" type that bricks itself once you disconnect the cells!
Dont give them ideas!
Only tards like FutureMotion and some auto manufacturers do that to their customers lol
For now...
they are working on that, some of the fancier tools for dewalt and milwaukee don't work without their battery packs
at 2:21 - it comes disconnected anyways. The downside of that is that the shell is ABS.
As a battery nerd, it hurt me to see you use those sad thin nickel strips on the tool battery at first, but got SO happy to see you DOUBLE STACK the 0.25mm strips using P45B's with a much better spot welder. My only compliant is not using the P28B's for the 18650 version as those blow the 25S's out of the water.
The only thing better you could have done is either do the "copper nickel sandwich" method or TRIPLE STACK lol.
This video also proves that it's not only about the battery cells inside, but the entire circuit design. The lower the resistance, the better. That's why they use monster thick copper strips (nickel plated i think), thicker wires inside the tool, and add extra contact points (see FLEX stacked batteries, Ridgid max output, etc).
I myself redid an ancient Ridgid 3.0ah with P28A's, except I had a cheap spot welder and only 0.10mm of pure nickel. So I triple stacked it to get the most out of it with what i had.
Ended up with a nice old/new 5.6ah pack for less than a new 4ah battery, cells and tools included.
Freaking amazing video!
2:14 I dunno. As contractors and electricians we've been using them heavily for a decade and they've survived really abusive scenarios no problem. The first few batteries we bought are just starting to die after tens of thousands of hours of work.
Yeah that surprised me too. I've rarely heard of Makita batteries failing, and I still have the 17 year old batteries from my dad's pack, albeit they're a little tired and don't have star protection on them. I truly wonder what some of these guys do to brick their batteries.
I can't understand why this channel doesn't have millions of subscribers?? I wont purchase a tool now till I come here first to see TTC's choices and tests on tools... Thanks Guys for all your hard work informing the masses...
I’ve spent so much money on cordless impact tools because of this channel.
@@09corvettezr1 LOL The same...
I made a pair of 9.0Ah Makita batteries several years ago by 3D printing a spacer to allow for a triple stack of 15 Samsung 30q 18650’s (just made the battery about 20mm taller). They are great! Use them all the time especially with the 18x2 (36v) chainsaw, the extra capacity makes a huge difference to the usefulness and there is definitely more amperage available with less voltage sag. Really wish Makita would make official 9Ah batteries.
But what about XGT line? It is no ethic to slow downa XGT adoption and decreasing makita revenue.
Planning on making a 20 cell 5S4P 14Ah battery using "EVE INR18650-35V 3500mAh - 10.2A", I think should end up being a pretty good deal at around 75 euro. What do you think?
Awesome video! If used one of those battery adapters to run a M18 high output on my Makita tools how close can I get to the results of the crazy homebuilt Makita battery? Keep up the great content.
Also dewalt batteries on the Makita? Basically what batteries SHOULD I buy with a battery adapter to make up for the poor battery options for my makita tools.
where can one find some info on building packs ourselves? I have like 5 dead packs
i know people with makita batteries and some tools that are over well 10 year old and get dayley use still going strong. the old ones dont have level indicator lights and dont seal to much worse than a new one
Thanks for this video! I miss our Lear Jet 8. My dad had one in 1970; sadly it died shortly after he did several years later. We used it in the living room, versus a portable.
Maybe Makita can keep it simple and just offer their current batteries alongside some new pouch cell batteries. This seems like a logical next step for the LXT battery line.
Great episode! Lots of good info and a witty script. Especially interesting to me as I own/use a lot of DeWalt 20v and Makita LXT tools.
Pouch cell seems like the best move if they want to keep their height at that 5Ah pack size
Cheers guys, I really wanted you to test this 3/4 Makita impact.
Excellent job. I was working on a Makita Beast also, you beat me to it! I am jealous of that spot welder...👍
Let us know if you need to borrow it!
@@TorqueTestChannel You guys should grab some nice FPV drone lipos and make a really powerful external battery just to see how far some of these tools can go with max amps. I can easily pull 150-200amp burst and 100amp constant at 18-20v.
@@TorqueTestChannelHello was wondering what website you use to purchase high amp discharge lithium cells for building custom packs.
Thank you for the great video.
You can‘t replace „the problem cells“, you always have to change all cells of the pack.
Best Spotwelder is Kweld!
Where did you get that from?. You can change one cell, people do this all the time when repairing faulty batteries. You just need to make sure you test and charge them all up before putting pack back together in order to maintain the balance. Yes, it's not as perfect as having all new cells together but it's acceptable.
Hand down the most honest and up front channel around. Excellent work.
Great video! But the question is, how is the quality on the bms in those Chinese battery kits?
The LXT line can definitely use the larger cells... with the caviate that might not work with the 18v x2 or some other rare cases; but it would be great for long run tools like the lights and fans.
Don't know if I'd like the extra lbs of batteries on the end of a drill, but saws and grinders would be okay.
they could also do a redesign of future tools to accept all the larger packs for the x2 line up.
my only thought of a non marketing reason for this not to have been done yet is the charger. It might not be rated for more than an hour of rapid charging.
Charger has 2~way communications, it could put the battery in fault mode if it doesn't charge up as expected (like taking 2hrs vs 45mins to charge).
Two points.. please put insulation strips on the positive side. With the connector heating up it can melt the jacket and touch the live case. Then you have a fire..
Remember the bms is also a limiting factor. At some point it wont matter how powerful the cells are tbe bms will be the bottleneck
I thought the 10ga wire was gonna be an issue. Even at 10C there will be 90 amps coming out of that pack, I can guarantee that wire will be getting warm.
Milwaukee 12ah packs will toast the terminals in the 9" cut off saw, that tool will pull more than 100amps.
I was wondering about the BMS limitations too. Would be interesting to test different ones with identical cells to compare performance.
I don't think there's any bms on that 21700 battery kit. No balance connections and looks like the output is connected straight to the batteries.
Perfect house/shop burner if you ask me.
And parallel strips mean nothing. Its all about series connections. Think about how DC current runs through a battery
@@ericklein5097 wrong each parallel bank adds to the potential discharge amps. So one bank 25a second 50a and so forth
Makita also can't make 15 cell batteries because of how they do cell balancing during charging. That kept them above the competition on charge speed for a long time. They've kept the same platform since 2005 though, so that is very impressive even if we're stuck with 18650s now.
I'd also be pretty careful with those Aliexpress circuit boards. There is a reason why they're half the size. Do they even do cell balancing?
They can do 15, or 20 or whatever, they just don't want to. Once you connect 3 cells in parallel with fixed connection, they become one big cell and it is balanced the same way. btw old lxt packs didn't even have balancing at all, they relied on Sony's excellent manufacturing tolerance and made sure that all cells have the same capacity so they don't go out of balance.
Also yeah lxt casing from ali are not that good, but they do have models with larger pcbs with balancing, and xgt ones are much better all in all, I use them a lot.
Edit - I like how the comment with misinformation gets most upvotes, you guys really believe anything right?
Yeah +1 on what Riba said, cells are (and should be) balanced in parallel so total number doesn't matter unless you change the number of groups in series
I have noticed that makita batteries, even though lower A/H, will last longer through the same job compared to Milwaukee with higher A/H comparable tools. And you really can't beat makitas charge time. I wish the rest of the industry would help develop battery technology. We've hit a point where all the tools are strong enough for their given applications and very close, but what matters is how many time you have to stop and charge or switch batteries and the extra fatigue from carrying bigger and heavier batteries to avoid that.
I think your on the money, can't imagine someone carries the 60v flex volt around for fun, at some lugging around an extention cord will be lighter
well said. agree the overall quality of makita batteries/charge times is significantly better than other brands. i just wish makita made a small lighter batter with a bit more punch
I run Dewalt Flexvolt and makita LXT every day. Flexvolt isn't so bad to lug around, it has the beans.
@@benhollanders7911 Still don't understand the dropsaw being cordless. How many times do you move a dropsaw every day? Once? Maybe?
makita has 40v now. lxt doesn't need an upgrade as its meant more for quality. the fact their tools and batteries work after 10-11 years of pure abuse is amazing. putting milwaukee under the same abuse as we use both brands makes them last around a year if not less. makita batteries more or less only fail on a dead short circuit inside a tool or being water damaged. meanwhile milwaukee kills cells, goes into constant overheat alert or physically snaps apart
Great episode! I've been wanting to swap the 3ah cells in my high output milwaukee battery's for the new molicel p45b, mainly wanting to see slightly longer runtime, and also swap some Nee p28b cells into a dead 4.0 M12 battery great info on this video!
Those two are the best ones yeah :)
I've done this. Honestly the molicels don't last under the demand. 6-12 months and they have lost much of their capacity.
If you are looking for maximum power, the Samsung 20S is what you're looking for. It's awesome. Nothing touches it.
8:46 they already know this, and they definitely have a nice graph showing how life expectancy stays mostly flat up until you beef up the battery as you just did, perhaps they left a 10-20% buffer zone for future "upgraded" tools, but you have no idea if you simply filled that up or went beyond it and your tool will burn out within a month
Yeah, I don't know if this is him hyping his vid or just arrogance. All the major brands would have pretty extensive data on how their motors, ESCs, and batteries hold up under different power levels, duty cycle, temperature, etc.
Pouch Cells (aka stacked lithium) would be a good alternative, since they would allow makita to keep the formfactor and 18x2 compatibility. And while the max output of round cells has gotten better pouch cells can drive much higher currents (I've got som with a 93c discharge rate pushing almost 100A out of an 1Ah cell -> ~450A from a 5 Ah cell). That would be mone ten enough. And active balancing would allow for really fast charge rates. The only drawbacks would be a little bit lower life expectanca and maby lower energy densiti meaning reduced total capacity.
No need for puch when there are more powerful 18650's compared to ones they use (as demonstrated in this video, and even more powerful ones exist). But many tools are limited internally so it wouldn't help much.
Also, durability/safety. Dewalt is only lightly stepping their toes in this water and many of the others are staying away for a reason. The cylindrical cells have proven themselves to be exceptionally safe even when badly treated by all kinds of manual-labor gorillas. A fat pouch in a thin plastic case is a ticking timebomb in comparison.
@@bnasty267 As someone who has slammed non-cased pouch batteries at 80mph into concrete and the battery is now a third the thickness it was before I started with no fire. I'm pretty confident pouch cells will be fine for construction use. Pouch cells normally fail from excessive load, overcharging or overheating. Tools have over current cut offs and the batteries have thermal cut offs so everything should be safe.
Test the high output XGT batteries (ones which model number end in "F" like 5ah and 8 ah) vs regular ones 🙏🙏 I notice a big difference.
makita has a mac charge/discharge cycle limiter as well, in japan they have a tool available that looks kind of like a charger that reads the chip in each battery and will tell you how many cycles its experienced
Those Molicel P28A & P42As are HOT cells for sure. I've considered doing this exact thing before for curiosity's sake...But just didn't see the point in spending that kind of money to find out. Happy to see it here! SUper interesting
I think the molicels (even the 21700 42As) aren't nearly as good as the Sony VTC5s. I really wish I would have stocked up on them.
@@take1one Spec sheets would say otherwise, but ok. Can't deny a Sony, LG, or Samsung.
@@J.Wick. yeah I agree and I bought the molicels. The A's then the updated B's. But I would take a Sony at double the price any day. That's for my application and just my opinion.
@@take1one The P45B is the undisputed king of 21700's right now, verified by Mooch. Also Sony VTC5's are 18650 not 21700 so you should be comparing it to the P28B which handily beats the VTC5 too in all aspects: max and continuous discharge rate, capacity, lower internal resistance (lower temps), cycle life, and is cheaper than the entire line of VTC series batteries.
@@take1one yeah yeah, understand. I'm not debating battery brand supremacy lol.. I've better things to do as deep you I'm sure. If that works for you, rock on. I'll have to check them out. Being Sony, I would expect nothing but the best, but they're priced like a Sony as well. Cheers. 🫡
I've been using the lxt platform since 2007 and because of this very problem I'm now moving over to milwaukee
could you do a video on how you built that 9Ah battery? and/or link to where you bought the batteries?
If you know you know, this can be very dangerous so don't do it if you don't have any experience
18650 battery store (it's literally the website name) and use your Makita old cell pack as reference to how to assemble it
I just did a mental inventory of my Makita LXT tools. None of them really need The Beans otherwise I would really like build that kit, too.
Mine neither, and where I would they are 36v tools that do plenty fine with the two 5ahs, which is in reality 10ah if it were 18v. I do think Makita will be vindicated with XGT, and i saw a patent this morning where it seems they are coming out with a 40v adapter to charge on 18v battery chargers.
Of course it works. But what about the unseen cost of possibly burning up a lot of older tools with these extra amps? Not sure if the tool protection circuitry was all that great when a lot of their 18v stuff came out. In my opinion, it would be a HUGE mistake for Makita to risk burning up trusted tools with a higher output battery. But that'd make a good video to test tool protection when Clyde Simpleton sits on the same lug nut for several minutes uninterrupted. haha!
Makita has probably done the best job of drawing the line, albeit due to their own shortsightedness in sizing tools based on the 5ah pack footprint. They saw that they were close to the limit on 18v and the advantages of higher tool voltage. But they continue to produce new tools in both 18v and 40v platforms that are adequate to suit their customer's needs. I know the channel is all about the beans, but the vast majority of users just don't need all those beans. There is a market for beans, of course. But Makita and Milwaukee both cash in on platform tool variety. It's hard to switch, or add another platform to your inventory for 100 ft/lbs that you probably already have in your shop with air tools for that rare occasion that you need it. My analogy on this subject: Just because the speedometer goes to 120mph doesn't mean you should DRIVE at 120mph.
The real elephant in the room is where does Milwaukee go with 18v? My opinion is that they have already gotten 99.5% of the juice out of the 18v lemon. And they did some unbelievable engineering in the process. But MX Fuel is too big for handheld tools and a bridge too far for most users. They are already going where they scoffed at Makita for: Dual pack tools. Now what Milwaukee?
For the record, I'm happily, and heavily invested in BOTH Milwaukee and Makita's 18v platforms. They do what I need them to do, and they do it well. There are very few of them that get taxed heavily. And those are mostly M12 tools that I reach for most due to their lighter weight and small tool box footprint. I can just carry more of them. So it'd take one amazing, must have for me to even think about going to a 3rd high power platform.
Don't get me wrong, this is a great video! Well done on the battery packs and the showing the evidence. Anyway, keep up the great content.
I think Makita are going to be vindicated when different battery form factors and chemistries come out. In a recent patent they show a battery concept with stacked cells, so it may be on the horizon.
However I totally agree with you about most people not needing max beans. Hot rods and muscle cars exist with max speed, but they are loud and shake all over; and massive trucks exist for load and towing capacity, but most people own a sedan or a small SUV to get done 99% of anything they need to do. Makita have given users the fast and strong line in XGT, and for those that have the Hot rod and truck in the driveway in addition to the family vehicle, that's there for them. Makita is the family vehicle though. Our dads had it, and many guys grandfathers had it as well. It's reliable, comfortable, and user friendly.
There's a reason Makita is the only company that owns itself as well as makes all its tools for itself, yet they cooperate with other brands for consumable and blade tech like Starlock and XLock. New attachment standards take time, but Makita is often on the forefront of it.
I think these fears are unfounded. I run big Flexvolt batteries on my pre Flexvolt Dewalt tools all the time, and I absolutely thrash my tools. No issues, just more balls and more runtime.
Like to see "The Beans" with Makita's DGA519 grinder - specs say 8500rpm - however it's X-Lock
25r's used to be the standard in vape stuff a few years ago but the sony vtc6 was the better choice with 3000mah and 30 amp discharge per cell. But they were more expensive at the time. Now in my ebikes, I use low discharge cells like 7 amp ones but add many in parallel.
I love hacking batteries (so long as safety precautions are made), I made an M12 battery that uses a lipo battery from an RC car, between the 5x higher current output combined with the 14.8v it is roudy
I like all your videos. I have many Milwaukee, Dewalt and Makita tools. They're all very close in terms of performance, but I generally find Makitas to be more reliable. The batteries are the weak link. However, a far easier solution is to just use a battery converter to run Mikwaukee and Dewalt batteries on my Makitas.
That's the real solution going forward for those who want the power. I've never felt I needed to go it, although I have the adapter for it.
Tools&stuff mentioned on several occasions that makita won't be improving the lxt 18v batteries. I haven't found a source for that, but I didn't look hard. And the price difference between lxt and xgt is quite massive for some tools.
I believe he's right. XGT IS the improvement and they made their choice
@@TorqueTestChannel I don't know if this is true, but I think the claim is that for high RPM torque tools like angle grinders, the motors really benefit from the higher volts. I know volts is just one factor for power, but all the top battery powered angle grinders are ones whose platforms are on higher volt ranges. Perhaps you can see if a bean'ed up LXT angle grinder and outperform an XGT?
Makita doesn't chase power like the others. They are Japanese. Makita always gets the job done, smoothly, quitely and efficiently, they are into comfort, light weight and ergonomics. They are the Toyota of tools.
In my country Makita dominates. Almost all professional tradesmen use Makita. The ones who bought Milwaukee and Dewalt end up switching to Makita over time. The reason is that here, Makita is cheaper, and so much more reliable it's not even a contest. And they are much more comfortable to use. I'm a former Dewalt guy. Dewalt tools are rough. Really it starts to wear you down when you use them every day.
They listened with a small blower 40V XGT - 18V LXT, so maybe they will also listen with batteries ...
Great channel, always great content, cheers!
It's interesting to see the different curves on that 15 second run right at the very end, the 3/4 Makita still has quite a steep curve indicating it is still making more torque, whereas the Milwaukee has started flatten out quite a lot. Would of been interesting to see if it flattened out at the 20s mark. It wouldn't surprise me if the Makita made more power than the Milwaukee after 20 seconds.
I'm all-Makita LXT. Frankly, if they made the batteries too chunky to fit in my x2 tools, no big deal. Just extend the ConnectX line to break out an x2 tool into x2 big-LXTs on a belt clip or something. The landscape tools already need a ConnectX to be usable anyway.
I'm just waiting for a 40v to LXT belt converter to come out, but I suspect it won't. The PDC01 is awesome, but it would be nice to have a single battery XGT adapter with a cord and a slim dummy battery for the LXT tools like the 18Vx2 connectx adapter, but that may cannibalism sales from XGT.
The other way would be difficult: 2 lxts to a 40v adapter. It would have to be on some sort of swivel base I feel to accommodate the various ways a 40v battery slots into certain tools, or have 2 batteries on a belt clip and a cord. They've come out with extension leads o get the weight off the tool, but not many guys use them. If they made the extension lead for an LXT to XGT adapter, it would make me get into XGT tools, and the batteries would then follow as I'd be justified to getting the kits and batteries. This would be an effective "baton pass" where at a certain point both LXT and XGT have an overlap.
You guys should look into what people are doing for electric skateboard batteries haha, we've been rocking molicel 21700's for quite awhile with stuff like braided copper series connections, and pushing some serious power out of these cells.
Excellent video! Thanks for the significant effort to make this. New subscriber from Australia!✊
I just did a project like this yesterday and today, no torque numbers, but I had knockoff milwaukee batteries that no longer charged, so I put molicel p28a 18650s in them. I now know I might want to get thicker plates than the ones that came with the seesii spot welder I got...
Sons of dishes this vid platform ticks me off sometimes. I haven't seen a video of yours in my subscription feed in months, and now to find out you've been putting it out a ton of vids. I absolutely hate notifications, but I guess I need to turn them on in order for them to show your vids. Keep up the great work good sir!
Yeah it happens a lot surprisingly. Doesn't seem like they plan on improving it either.
@@TorqueTestChannel I'm getting the feeling they want to have the Algo determine what's being fed to their users just like Tic-tac. But I definitely agree, I don't think it will change anytime soon.
@@WhenTheManComesAround Correct, they just want to feed you X subject matter you last clicked on. Not necessarily the latest from a creator you follow. Which is why if said creator makes something even slightly removed from what they're already doing YT shows it to basically no one.
@@TorqueTestChannel Agreed!
Just follow your sub feed instead of your home page
I'm using Makita 18V every day and i dont want even heavier batteries, They should make 3Ah in the footprint of the 1Ah tho and a mains to 18V adapter
Have you tried adapters. It would be interesting to see the same tool (makita) with other brand packs
Makes you wonder if you can see gains from a STOCK battery just by upgrading its nickel strips to reduce voltage drop.
I'm just here sitting in my apartment, only with a brushed 18v rigid drill/driver and impact driver combo with 2 1.5 amp batteries. I also have my daily apartment driver, an 8v NoCry electric screwdriver.
Yes! More of this! 🤘🏽 Hell, I'd buy myself one or two "Beans" in red.
The margins some brands have on them is criminal.
Would have loved to see this on a big drill or circ saw something that is really battery limited.
Their circ saw shown here takes two LXT packs and therefore doesnt fit 21700 packs side by side. And this grinder requires more watts to run than their LXT drill.
You should test the sisi tools with this beast. I'm sure they would love a taste of them extra beans as well!
I have various makita lxt tools and 4 and 5ah battery packs. Really glad you’ve made this video because a few have started to go so I’ll be able to rebuild/ upgrade them.
xgt batteries are also quite a bit bigger than the lxt so i'm not even gonna go to xgt ever. i just made a realization that makita could change the orientation of the cells and get 21700 cells in there. would make the pack a bit longer but still compatible with all the lxt tools
You guys could have done what I did and easier. Get a battery adapter. I run my Makita tools off of Core Bosch batteries and Metabo multivolt’s
When are we going to get some Porter Cable stats? Granted, PC has NO following, I tend to find their power tools on clearance when I can.
Pretty sure they didn't bother making anything beyond what they have because of XGT. Obviously it's a different set of batteries AND tools, but that was kind of the point.
Also, the crazy Dewault packs and the like are a little ridiculous to even consider holding/storing/using.
They questioned it and sought out a proper Diag and correction of issues. That's good.. Beats it becoming a pile of busted parts
You can get 45amp output 21700 cells. A friends currently converted a ryobi dremil that take a proprietary battery aka and 18650 with a shell on it, new brushless motor and motors driver. Things a mini angle grinder
HVAC service technician here, I’d like to see the latest generation M12 Fuel Impact Driver compared to other compact impact drivers. Model#: 3453-20.
Hi there,
From a technical/nerdy point of view I get it that a brand can do some improvement but as long as I'm concerned being a contractor it doesn't really matter. I mean of course tools have to be efficient, fast and reliable which all professional brands kind of are. So once you've chosen a brand you basically stick to it. We work on Makita for 5 years but it could have been Milwaukee would've been the same.
As carpenters in Europe we use a lot of impact drivers and drills with big screws. We have to cut big chunks of wood with any saws and the job gets done really great on those 18V. I don't really see why we should buy those huge costy batteries. In 5 years of daily use only 2 of 20 batteries went off. At that price it's pretty insignificant 🤷🏼
Great channel by the way 💪
Well done. Great to see some hard torquing journalism. And a sprinkle of tinkering in between :)
Great video & especially testing methodology. 👍 I’ve been building 18650 Molicel & Samsung cell packs for my Milwaukee M18’s for years and LOVE the extra beans they provide over stock Milwaukee packs. I’ve been building pouch LiPo cells for over 15 years for our RC planes & in the last 8 years, our racing drones, so am planning to do the same to all my Milwaukee tools if I can ever find the time. Talk about spicey! LiPo is just a little too dangerous for most people however.
I have 10 year old 4ah makita batteries that have no noticeable performance drop at all. Also when cold out makitas batteries don’t stop working as some others do (dewalt, Bosch)
I'm fairly sure Makita knows that bigger batteries will give them more power. They also know that LXT has had several layers of duct tape added to it since 2005. Bigger cells would need another layer of duct tape in the form of bigger mosfets and probably a heatsink in the battery. Eventually you're better off starting from scratch, which is what XGT is.
There is no XGT tax. In EU, AU/NZ, Asia, the XGT equivalents are the same or slightly more than LXT. What you're seeing is crazy price competition in the US amongst retailers. So US LXT prices are probably very low margin, but Makita are unwilling to discount XGT because they can make much better money off it from the rest of the world.
I had a garage full of LXT tools...and had a desire for smaller tools. I ended up with a M12 propex tool for some work on the house and that just served to be an intro into Milwaukee. I've since made some new tradesman happy with a ton of cheap blue tools and batteries...but frankly I wish I didn't need to have dumped Makita. I'll admit that I think Milwaukee did a great job of making M12 and M18 tools and chargers that once you buy anything M18....well hey now you have a M12 charger too! Just need to go buy some M12 stuff.
They need to drop support for the LXT X2 tools (or just asterisk them) and be done with it. It's a horrible excuse today to skip better battery cell sizes. It was a horrible excuse 5 years ago too.
can you test some of the #makita tools using adapters to run the last ridgid or dewalt batteries? I would love to see a AC840080 or a DCB609G powering Makita Impacts or Grinders.
I bought an adapter set from aliexpress to allow me to use my AEG batteries on my Makita tools and visa versa.
I've used 18650 cells for my vape stuff for years. Nothing compares to the Sony/Murata VTC line of batteries and nothing compares to the amount of cycles you can put thru these. My Sony vtc5 batteries get charged daily for the last 4 years and have out lasted any Sanyo, LG, Samsung, or other brands I have used over the years. I would love to know how they would do in a power tool battery pack. 8 or so years ago Sony stopped making them for the public to purchase and was selling them for use in the Toyota Prius but later partnered with Murata to continue making them for public use. If you search the web , you will find that flashlight fans and Ex-smokers(vapers) have rated these as the most reliable over the last 8 to 10 years.
I am using the vtc5A cells for Makita as well as for Metabo in small 2,6Ah Packs with 5 Cells. The performance is really great and alows me to do lots of work with the lightweight batterys.
Murata purchased Sony's battery division several years ago. They were known as Sony Murata during the transition, but now they're just Murata. That's why you can't get Sony brnaded cells anymore as they are now Murata. Makita uses Murata a lot, all XGT batteries use Murata cells.
@@toolscientistthis interesting to know. I wonder if Makita would ever do a premium LXT battery with murata cells.
@EliotTruelove they could definitely do a higher capacity slim pack without risking overdriving the tools. Either 2.5ah if staying with 18650s, or 4ah with 21700s. The option to do a 2.5ah has been there for several years, so I don't think it's likely.
Ya I know Makita makes some good stuff but I was told to avoid because of their batteries… apparently you get 2 “strikes” (over discharge, over temp, etc) and the circuit board shuts you down permanently!
thats a load of crap. In 11 years of daily use with Makita I have only had 2 batteries die on me. Know alot more guys running milwuakee with failed batteries.
I own Makita tools, because my father had Makita tools. He built the house I grew up in with a Makita 7.2 NiCD screw gun. My Grandfather used Makita. That being said, I'm pretty sure I'm the average Makita customer. I don't care what Team Red or Team Yellow are doing. They do everything I need and will for the next 20 years.
Agreed. There's no need for these "teams" to exist. I have both Milwaukee and Dewalt tools, and will likely buy Makita if needed.
Exactly this team blue yellow teal is bullshit. My grandfather had been a contractor since the 80’s. He used Makita cordless drills. Black and decker corded drills. Milwaukee sawzalls and a skil saw worm drive saw. For almost anything. He didn’t care about the color or name. He only cared who made the tool well.
I think the only thing he retired from that list was the Makita drills before getting new ones.
Makita just doesn't make as good of tools as other brands. And they charge more than milwaukee in most cases but are nowhere near the quality. They have to use 2 18v batteries to make the same power than M18 and 20v tools do. Kinda sad actually.
@@brody2642same, we bounce back and forth between yellow and red. When ever I need a new tool I look and see who makes the best of that specific tool and buy it. If I’m buying a tool with a cord then it doesn’t matter who makes it to me.
@@justinrisley8466 Their tools work just fine and are completely reliable. I literally have a two boxes of dead Milwaukees and Dewalts as work. I'd argue their tool's quality is probably better the red ryobi's or yellow black and deckers. That's why Makita is still one of two independant tool manufacturer's left (The other being Hilti) What Makita doesn't do is bother with the one upmanship. My impact drives every fastener I put on it, my saw cuts everything I put it to. Are they the most powerful? No. But they'll work perfectly the next 25 years.
I found this interesting and very funny at the same time because we LXT users know that we can get after-market 9.0Ah batteries for years. And for less than any battery that size by any manufacturer. The big mystery is why Makita themselves never offer their battery in this format. 😕
You've misunderstood the point of this video. They and most do know you can buy aftermarket 9ah batteries for Makita and other brands. Those aftermarket ones often have lower quality batteries than the ones used here. They work just fine but the quality and amps these particular batteries put out is among the highest you can at 21700. Just to be clear, ah doesn't equal more power, it means higher battery capacity, infact, if a 9ah uses bad quality batteries it can cause a tool to have less power.
I saw these diy kits and got really curious, so glad you did a video on them!!
Happy Friday Friend!
Have a great weekend and thank you for the video!
2:05 what these blinking lights mean? I have this going on wit my battery and it wont charge.
I have a Milwaukee battery that had a lead come off. I micro sauldered back on. The board seems to be messed up. How should I fix?
I have seen adaptors where you can use different brand batteries on different brand tools. I have no experience with them. Check into it see if they actually work.
I have a Milwaukee nailer I spraypainted RustOleum Lagoon, which is a slightly bluer teal than Makita, and I run it on a battery adapter. It's brilliant, and id highly recommend it.
I posed this questions to you several months ago since 21700s are so spicy, glad to see some positive results.
So when it comes to LXT batteries dying I've heard of 2 solutions and have successfully done the easy one myself. The easy way, how I saved a 2 AH pack, is use two pieces of 16 gage wire and jump start it with another pack for about 10 seconds, then put it on the charger immediately. If it works it should just start charging.
The 2nd was is a battery reviver I've seen online that trickle charges a battery over a couple days, the rate of success is supposed to be higher with that but it's a couple hundred dollars so you better already have like 10 batteries to even justify buying it
We tried a bench power supply to trickle charge it, and it does charge just never powers tools anymore despite being 20.5V internally.
@@TorqueTestChannel if you remove the Star battery protection it will work again, but it comes at the risk of overvoltage
The Samsung 25s cells would be nice in a 2.5ah pack for Makita. Gives some more beans to the ratchet
I loved Grinder Girl on Late Night with David Letterman. Awesome sparks ⚡️😆
My makita batteries have lasted a loooong time under daily contractor abuse so I have no complaints about quality. I believe the 4ah battery has the most output wattage at 1000 and the 5 and 6 ah batteries only go to 760 watts due to the types of cells. I know this is an old post but I am just getting around to it. nice work making the beans!
We got battery converters for the old style dewalt to accept the Milwaukee fuel batteries and they work better than new
5:53 current doesn't work the way you've describing. In your case, because there are two cells in parallel, your theoretical maximum current will be 10a higher (5a from each cells connected in parallel)
Not true
what I would really wish you would do is test dry verses oiled threads on the bolts
Absolutely. Fantastic. Video.
Thank you my good man
What thickness nickel did you use with the first cells that burned up?
I'm trying to figure out the minimum thickness that i can use to get away with using a cheaper spot welder.