someone who has never been to a race cavendish rode in?? been to many races with Cav you will always find him in the cars... and Sky i watched the whole team pass the commisars car behind their own car.
Solid rant Dan. Completely agree. Personally I think the bike you start the stage on should be the bike you finish on (mechanical incidents aside). Otherwise, what's to stop a team swapping to a 20kg bike for the decent and then swapping again to a 6.8kg one for the climb over and over again. It feels wrong and goes against the "make cycling sustainable" principle.
Absolutely not. The bike change is no problem, the problem is if you do that, you need to get back without drafting your teams car. Anybody can swap their bike, this is not an issue at all and never has been.
Totally agree. We don't want highly specialized bikes with everyone needing 7 to get by. As you've said, we want cycling to be more sustainable and have more versatile bikes. Also, it would be interesting if grand tours would have one stage where you are only allowed assistance from neutral cars/mechanics and only allowed to take drink/food from neutral support.
My wife, not a cyclist, was watching with me and said "Surely they are not allowed to ride behind the car like that?" She also noticed the "sticky bottle" technique being used excessively by various riders. Time for the UCI to get tough on this bike change nonsense and drafting cars.
Agreed. It's like the non-enforcement of traveling in the NBA. Outsiders look at the non-call and just surmise it's a BS sport. If you couldn't get away with it as a child playing with your mates then you shouldn't get away with it as pro being watched by children.
Some of the sticky bottles have been absolutely heinous. They may as well have just said, "Nah, don't need the bottle. Just put your hand on my arse and accelerate for 20 seconds."
Difficult to say given he didn’t make up 55 seconds riding behind the car, he was simply benefiting for 55 seconds. How much exactly did he benefit? Who knows.
The direct time benefit might have been just 20 seconds. It saved his teammates a lot of distance where they didn't have to pull him just as the climb was about to start. And a couple 100 watts difference for some time at a critical section could make a huge difference. But the whole point of a penalty is to be punitive. If they do stuff like this with premeditation, and the penalty is no worse than the benefit gained, then they have no incentive to follow the rules.
You want to change your bike to gain an advantage on a big climb then take the time penalty of making that change. You don’t get a free pull behind a car to make up that time! This is so straightforward I can’t even Believe it’s a conversation
Bang on Dan. I’d almost say that swapping bikes should be banned. What bike you start on should be what you finish on, unless you have a crash or terminal mechanical. Otherwise you keep the bike and you/your team/your mechanic have to decide the best gearing for the varied terrain from the start.
Then you would have a series of “ mechanicals”, or other bizarre bike failures. This type of rule manipulation happens in many other sports. Just this weekend the South Africa rugby team made a formal complaint against Australia for manufacturing non contested scrums in their recent test matches. It’s called the Law of Unintended Consequences 🤣😉
It should have been much more than 20 seconds. He was drafting behind the car in the valley and wouldn't have been able to catch the peloton with that gearing even with team mates around him, then benefitted from that gearing on the climb. I reckon they calculated that it would still be an advantage even with the 20 seconds. But Rog didn't perform to his best and Ben over-performed.
@@cote-dubucraphael6235 It's in my post. He would have lost more time on that particular bike had it not been for the drafting and then gained an advantage on the climb. A fair penalty would have been to give him the same time as O'Connor.
Exactly. If a penalty has zero punitive component, there is zero incentive to follow the rules. They catch you, it cost nothing. They don't catch you, jackpot. @@luciustarquiniuspriscus1408
Primoz is my favorite rider but he clearly tried to game the system, the system makes sense here (but it definitely feels bad being devils advocate for a UCI decision)
I'm not particulary a Roglic fan but I do apreciate your integrity. I'm cheering for the underdog O'connor this year. Btw I do not mean wish a crash or injury to befall Primoz. Had it gone unpunished it would have sperad through the peleton as a strategy.
"Of all the grand tours this season..." almost laughed. Vuelta was open from the moment Pogi said "nah". Remembering Giro and the Tour, we were not wondering if he can gain 25 secods, we were wondering if he can catch the breakaway that's 3 minutes ahead with 5km to go.
20 seconds was a joke. Bike changes for mechanical failures and flats but not for competetive advantage, Not for a fresh set of batteries either ;) They need to be more strict on drafting the team cars too. It needs to be stamped out.
I agree that the penalty was justified. It was his team’s decision to try and gain an advantage through a bike change, and they got caught allowing him to draft to catch back up to the peloton. Still, I think he’ll win the GC because he is so strong.
The reality is that, on top of the UCI penalty, Roglič punished himself with the bike change. Whatever slight advantage there was in using the other bike, it was not going to make up for the time lost during the switch and the energy expended racing back to the speeding peloton. He looked embarrassed when questioned about the tactic.
He and teh team got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I suspect the team thought it would slip through under the radar. In my mind the time and manner of the bike swap was panned in great detail.
@@rhbusby The coverage that I saw was commented on by a couple of ex-pros. One was dead silent, and the other said that Roglič was doing exactly what he should be doing. One of them had doped during their career - I’ll let you guess which one.
I grudgingly agree 100% with your assessment. in real time as I watched this, I almost did a double take as I couldn't believe that they would blatantly flaunt their disdain for the rules. I'm pulling for Primoz, but you made great points that made great sense.
Spot on regarding the Roglic incident Dan. Roglic got humiliated by Mas on that final climb anyway hence the slightly prickly post-stage.....Oh I didn't know where Ben O'Connor was BS....interview .
Fully justified drafting penalty. Unnecessary bike changes just create more messy and possibly dangerous race situations and should not be rewarded. Kudos to the UCI judges
@@andrehufschmid What if multiple riders suddenly decided to change bikes and dropped back through the peloton? - with a load of teammates, cars stopping all over the road, mechanics running in all directions amongst all the other cars and riders
Agreed. Vuelta is always the crazy grand Tour. Giro and Tour are more "predictable". And the huge amount of clmbing and heat this year threw a spanner into it as wll.
Yes, it was justified. I was watching live yesterday, when I saw that darfting I tought, a penalty is coming. Lucky for us fans, gives a little more excitment for the race!!!
@dan, you are right about Roglic. In spite of him leaving the best team in the world, i'm still supporting him. But i actually think 20 seconds was a bit low. I think he is suffering under the pressure and i hope he pulls through.
I think bike change should only be allowed during a mountain TT stage. This is completely unnecessary in an ordinary stage (yes it's a very steep mountain stage but still).
Fully agree, don’t like to see bike changes for perceived advantage. Should have to get back without assistance from the team car. Surely that bike Roglic took is under the 6.8kg weight limit as well?
Very well and compellingly explained - and fully agreed. Unfortunately it is just one more exposure of the incompetence of BRB's DSs. There are so many of them. That team has much more potential.
Not so sure this was team management decisions to swap bikes. But rather the rider. He switched bikes for the mountains also in the 2023 Giro, and for sure that was not BRB but Visma.
1. Roglič 2. Mas 3. O'Connor 4. Carapaz 5. Landa 6. Gaudu 7. Lipowitz 8. Skjelmose 9. Rodriguez 10. Yates Satisfied of this Top 10. Nothing to lose either way, and expecting to be surprised in this final week.
100% agree with you Dan. Yeah UCI need to get tougher on riding behind cars and sticky bottles. It never occurred to me before that the pushing of a rider by a team mechanic following a bike change should be penalised, good point well made.
Wheneer I see a sticky bottle I wondr Hmm, tht seems excessive What's up with that.?" How sticky does a bottle have to be to get a penalty. Thak for all those camera bike in and around the race. Nothn is hidden anylonger and that's a good ting as I see it.
Should have had a penalty proportional to the time spent drafting. Additionally, if he swaps bikes again I would fully expect Decathlon to immediately put the hammer down.
Cavendish did something similar during the stage he won in the tour. Twice if memory serves. I couldn’t believe he got away with it. It should be an instant demotion to last on the stage. Dan is 100% correct. It’s calculated abuse of a reasonable leniency that everyone observes for crashes and mechanicals. In fact I would argue that changing to a significantly different specification of bike mid stage a la Team Sky should be banned altogether. Makes you wonder what other rules they think they can “bend.”
Without the time penalty I'm not sure if the bike change saved any time at all. Even with the drafting it still takes effort and energy catching back on.
But using th car has a real effect on reducing the the amount of energy. Try drafting a friend in a car on a lonely road and see how much it educes the enegy required. . Changing bikes - go right ahead, but no drafting back to the peleton. as long as both bikes are UCI legal
@@rhbusby I'm a retired racer and understand the benefit. I'm saying if he stayed on the 2x for the climb. Unless the 2x didn't have the gearing for the 24% pitch.
This was very justified. Happy for Benny, he still got all the changes for victory. Primoz isn't the most consistent rider in terms of staying upright on he's bike either, it's certainly getting really interesting. What a Vuelta!
Been rooting for Ben O’Connor ever since he put 6 mins on Roglic. I’m praying he hangs in there but Roglic Will inevitably be in Red come the final stage. Fully justified penalty. Should have been longer for trying to deliberately gain an advantage.
My final prediction for top 10: 1) Roglic 2) O'Connor 3) Mas 4) Landa 5) Carapaz 6) Skjelmose 7) Rodriguez 8) Gaudu 9) Yates 10) Kuss My gut tells me that Sivakov and Lipowitz wont make it in the top 10 for the final week. I think Yates is better in the terrain then Sivakov, and Lipowitz may be needed to assist Roglic. I also think that Kuss has a small break away in him at some point - but maybe that's just whishfull thinking!
#1 Primoz Roglic #2 Enric Mas #3 Ben OConnor #4 Richard Carapaz #5 Mikel Landa #6 Florian Lipowitz #7 Mattias Skjelmose #8 Carlos Rodriguez #9 Adam Yates #10 David Gaudu
As to the time penalty for Roglic…Slippery slope here. The penalty in this case may be justified, but what’s to stop a team from “claiming” to have a mechanical issue when in fact they really simply want to swap to a different bike? Consistency and subjectivity in rules application seem to come with “loopholes” for both officials and for riders.
I think it should work like an American football rule. You need to say ‘before’ the stage that you are going to make a bike change during the stage. Football has a rule saying you have to tell the ref you have a lineman acting like a receiver for a play. No misunderstandings.
@@Phlakaton88 ANY drafting should be disallowed, regardless of circumstances! Accidents and mechanicals happen...those are part of the sport. If I am held up in automobile traffic and, once the traffic is moving more normally, I am caught speeding since I am trying not to be late to an appointment, should the police officer give me a break? Absolutely not! "Bad luck" happens.
It's like the free lap rule in a criterium, due to a MECHANICAL issue or a crash. Pulling into the pit, changing bikes while telling the official "Oh yeah.....I like THIS bike better..." won't get you a free lap.
A light penalty for the huge draft, they could have gone for the minute, in my opinion. Penalty was good, amount is debatable. For the top 10: 1.Roglic 2.Mas 3.O"Connor 4.Landa 5.Carapaz. 6.Rodriguez (ineos). 7.Skjelmose. 8.Sivakov 9.Gaudu. 10.Kuss
YES!! .... His bike change was a conscious decision!, he did it for tactical reasons, it wasn't a puncture or mechanical, if he wants to do that for an advantage, he can hardly benefit for a huge draft to get back to the peloton he chose to leave. He was lucky it was only 20 secs!! Re Predictions... Think you nailed it.
Totally agree Dan. Primos should've had the book thrown at him in my opinion. His choice to swap bikes, his time to make up. I also totally agree with you on the TT scenario! Riders choice riders problem to get back up to speed. Nobody else should be involved. I wonder what Bora Red Bull would've done if O'Conner had been given a helping hand on the toughest gradients of the final climb on Sunday!
Well said and I agree with your thoughts. If the team wants to drop back to help him, it may be OK, It's part of cycling. No drafing the cars for a tactical advantage after a strategic bike swap. I'm often a critic of UCI decisions but they got this almost right - needed more of a penalty to make ans example.
Here's my prediction: 1. ROGLIČ Primož 2. O'CONNOR Ben 3. MAS Enric 4. CARAPAZ Richard 5. LANDA Mikel 6. GAUDU David 7. LIPOWITZ Florian 8. SKJELMOSE Mattias 9. RODRÍGUEZ Carlos 10. SIVAKOV Pavel
it was an absolute stupid bike change - on top of the 20s penalty he arrived at the bottom of the climb with fatigued legs due to the chase and he didn't have optimal gears due to the 1x bike he was on. Hopefully RBH finally will learn something about tactics - not the first mistake after all...
It appears that without the draft Roglic would never have seen the front of the race again. At the time the peleton were drilling it at 55 km/hr from 24 km to 18 km to go on a 2 degree incline. This is why the peleton was single file and 400 m long. As soon as it hits 5 degrees, then are popping out the back. Penalize each rider on the team 1 minute. Remember they were drafting at 72 to 78 km/ hr behind the car when the peleton was doing 55 km/hr. This is not a flat tyre or a crash. Someone asked me, Why he did not just get in the car and start cyling again when the car caught the peleton. If Roglic 'wins' this tour, it will forever be known he did by cheating. Ask Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Ricci, Contador etc.
Good for Roglic to get that penalty, I would have given him 40 seconds, even 60. I agree with Dan's opinion. Roglic later admitted it was a mistake that he switched bikes. He did't get robbed, that's a stupid headliner!
Excellent opinion on rth Roglic 20 second penalty. I've always understood as you infer in your presentation that th comissas turn a blind eye on 'drafting" when it is permits a rider with mechanical or crash issues to return to the peloton. I've been watching cycling fo more than 30 years. The distinction is that Roglic and his team used the bike swap and allowing him to return to the peleton as an affirmative strategy and to gain an advantage. I agree with you that he was lucky to receive the minimal (20 ses) rather than a more substantial penalty. For me the tipping point is that it was a planned strategy to gain an advantage not to put him on equal foorting with th other rides. I freely admit Roglic is talented but "something' about him just doesn't sit right with me. He seems to consider himself special and abvoe all the others. He is not.
I think part of the reason they look the other way when it's a puncture is the sheer size of the convoy. With 22 teams at the Vuelta, if each team only has 2 cars, that's 44 cars, plus official cars, plus neutral support, etc. It's probably impossible not to get some draft from that anyway. Further, most riders are just "surfing" the cars, tucking in, passing, tucking in, passing, etc, likely not spending considerable time behind any one car. Given that Vollering got a20 second penalty at the 2023 TdFF for drafting, and she was coming back from a puncture, Roglic's penalty does maybe seem light, but absolutely justified and, for once from the UCI, consistent. Also, on that incident, DS Danny Stam said "...we can lose the Tour de France on five seconds". Congratulations on being right.
🤔Do you think the punishment fit the crime or was Roglič unfairly penalised? ⚖
Yes
Needed to be harsher
Surely the benefit of stopping was far more than 20secs
He was lucky to get only 20 secs, planned stop, lower gearing for the climb and had to draft to get back on. It should have been a bigger penalty.
Roglic should be penalized for his poor choice of using a 1X drivetrain.
To be fair Roglic did everything except get in the car and adjust the radio station, fully justified penalty.
I honestly doubt with the gear ratio he had on the bike he probably wouldn’t have gotten back to the peloton
@@philipmeisterl You have never ridden a bike. lmao
someone who has never been to a race cavendish rode in?? been to many races with Cav you will always find him in the cars... and Sky i watched the whole team pass the commisars car behind their own car.
Should be a bigger time penalty...40-60sec
@@trudgin62this one isn’t quite the same to me. It was a planned change. Car waiting. Cav was using the car traffic. This was deliberate as a tactic.
Being a huge Primoz fan myself, I think he was incredibly lucky to get the minimum penalty and his Director of sport should have known better.
I too was a fan until he attacked sepp last vuelta - very bad teammate, bad sportsmanship, poor way to repay sepp for helping primos win the giro
@@jamesconsidine6552This again? What about Jonas who attacked Sepp 3-4 times and nobody even said a thing?
@@francescosaturnino113 Jonas should have helped sepp for sure
@@jamesconsidine6552 don't cry, at the end they let him win. This year we can see if he deserved that win.
@@ChumpSLO who’s crying? You guys? Sepp is not going to get close this year for sure…
Solid rant Dan. Completely agree. Personally I think the bike you start the stage on should be the bike you finish on (mechanical incidents aside). Otherwise, what's to stop a team swapping to a 20kg bike for the decent and then swapping again to a 6.8kg one for the climb over and over again. It feels wrong and goes against the "make cycling sustainable" principle.
Same as in MTB; one bike only. Any problems, tough.....make the bikes/ equipment more reliable. Similar to motorsport.....
Absolutely not. The bike change is no problem, the problem is if you do that, you need to get back without drafting your teams car. Anybody can swap their bike, this is not an issue at all and never has been.
Absolutely agree. I would like to see the riders choose their bike/equipment and ride EVERY stage, including time trials, on that choice.
@@Andy_ATB So, if you crash and damage your bike, sorry, see you next year?
Totally agree. We don't want highly specialized bikes with everyone needing 7 to get by. As you've said, we want cycling to be more sustainable and have more versatile bikes.
Also, it would be interesting if grand tours would have one stage where you are only allowed assistance from neutral cars/mechanics and only allowed to take drink/food from neutral support.
My wife, not a cyclist, was watching with me and said "Surely they are not allowed to ride behind the car like that?" She also noticed the "sticky bottle" technique being used excessively by various riders. Time for the UCI to get tough on this bike change nonsense and drafting cars.
Agreed. It's like the non-enforcement of traveling in the NBA. Outsiders look at the non-call and just surmise it's a BS sport. If you couldn't get away with it as a child playing with your mates then you shouldn't get away with it as pro being watched by children.
Some of the sticky bottles have been absolutely heinous. They may as well have just said, "Nah, don't need the bottle. Just put your hand on my arse and accelerate for 20 seconds."
lol "time to toughen up" its literally happened once... find me another time a rider made a tactical bike change and was then caught drafting?
I agree with you Dan. Further more I'm flabbergasted that he's not crashed out of the race YET!!
Race aint over yet😂
Cattivi😈
Never thought about the push given getting back up to speed in a TT but you are 100% right.
Same, good point Dan!
Exactly
So push at TT change is also not alowed?
@@90330it is but should not
I agree too.
They need to start adding on 5 -10 mins for slipstreaming. Then it stops
I read somewhere that Roglic drafted the car for about 55 seconds. If this is true, then perhaps the 20 second penalty was fairly light?
Difficult to say given he didn’t make up 55 seconds riding behind the car, he was simply benefiting for 55 seconds. How much exactly did he benefit? Who knows.
I think it would be appropriate to make the penalty the same as the time they were drafting. And if they do it a second time, double the penalty.
The direct time benefit might have been just 20 seconds. It saved his teammates a lot of distance where they didn't have to pull him just as the climb was about to start. And a couple 100 watts difference for some time at a critical section could make a huge difference.
But the whole point of a penalty is to be punitive. If they do stuff like this with premeditation, and the penalty is no worse than the benefit gained, then they have no incentive to follow the rules.
You want to change your bike to gain an advantage on a big climb then take the time penalty of making that change. You don’t get a free pull behind a car to make up that time! This is so straightforward I can’t even Believe it’s a conversation
Bang on Dan. I’d almost say that swapping bikes should be banned. What bike you start on should be what you finish on, unless you have a crash or terminal mechanical. Otherwise you keep the bike and you/your team/your mechanic have to decide the best gearing for the varied terrain from the start.
Then you would have a series of “ mechanicals”, or other bizarre bike failures. This type of rule manipulation happens in many other sports. Just this weekend the South Africa rugby team made a formal complaint against Australia for manufacturing non contested scrums in their recent test matches. It’s called the Law of Unintended Consequences 🤣😉
Well stated. To me the bike swap plus the drafting belies a strategic decision by him and the team. They deserved more of a penaltry.
Was the bike legal in respect of weight?
It should have been much more than 20 seconds. He was drafting behind the car in the valley and wouldn't have been able to catch the peloton with that gearing even with team mates around him, then benefitted from that gearing on the climb. I reckon they calculated that it would still be an advantage even with the 20 seconds. But Rog didn't perform to his best and Ben over-performed.
Why more than 20 sec? After the swap he was not behind more than 20 sec. Giving PR more than 20 seconds make no sens whatsoever
@@cote-dubucraphael6235 It's in my post. He would have lost more time on that particular bike had it not been for the drafting and then gained an advantage on the climb. A fair penalty would have been to give him the same time as O'Connor.
If got caught stealing $1M, do you just return the money, wait that's the current logic.
@@bentang6803 Why the f would you compare stealing 1M to a bike race. Conplete nonsense
Exactly. If a penalty has zero punitive component, there is zero incentive to follow the rules. They catch you, it cost nothing. They don't catch you, jackpot. @@luciustarquiniuspriscus1408
He robbed himself with them tactics! Knucklehead!
I was concerned about the drafting at the time tbh. A bit stupid to use his car.
Primoz is my favorite rider but he clearly tried to game the system, the system makes sense here (but it definitely feels bad being devils advocate for a UCI decision)
Totally! I don’t side with the UCI most of the time (feels kind of yucky🤣), but I think 20 seconds was kind on that one.
I'm not particulary a Roglic fan but I do apreciate your integrity. I'm cheering for the underdog O'connor this year. Btw I do not mean wish a crash or injury to befall Primoz. Had it gone unpunished it would have sperad through the peleton as a strategy.
100% agree with everything stated. Albeit, I think 30, or 40 seconds, may have been a more representative punishment.
Excellently presented case.
Really appreciate Dan's GC-experience driven analysis and opinion.
1. Roglic
2. Enric Mas
3. Mikel Landa
4. Richard Carapaz
5. Ben O'Connor
6. Adam Yates
7. Lipowitz
8. Skjelmose
9. Carlito Rodriguez
10. Sasha Vlasov
"Of all the grand tours this season..." almost laughed. Vuelta was open from the moment Pogi said "nah". Remembering Giro and the Tour, we were not wondering if he can gain 25 secods, we were wondering if he can catch the breakaway that's 3 minutes ahead with 5km to go.
20 seconds was a joke. Bike changes for mechanical failures and flats but not for competetive advantage, Not for a fresh set of batteries either ;) They need to be more strict on drafting the team cars too. It needs to be stamped out.
I agree that the penalty was justified. It was his team’s decision to try and gain an advantage through a bike change, and they got caught allowing him to draft to catch back up to the peloton. Still, I think he’ll win the GC because he is so strong.
Roglič fan here. He deserved it.
1. Roglic 2. Mas 3. Carapaz 4. O’Conner 5. Carlos Rodriguez 6. Skjelmose 7. Landa 8. Kuss 9. Gaudu 10. Sivakov
The reality is that, on top of the UCI penalty, Roglič punished himself with the bike change. Whatever slight advantage there was in using the other bike, it was not going to make up for the time lost during the switch and the energy expended racing back to the speeding peloton. He looked embarrassed when questioned about the tactic.
He and teh team got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. I suspect the team thought it would slip through under the radar. In my mind the time and manner of the bike swap was panned in great detail.
@@rhbusby The coverage that I saw was commented on by a couple of ex-pros. One was dead silent, and the other said that Roglič was doing exactly what he should be doing. One of them had doped during their career - I’ll let you guess which one.
I think mid-race swapping between different types of bikes to gain an advantage should be prohibited entirely.
You’ve explained the penalty very well. I now understand and have to agree with you.
Ineos have a gem on their hands with Castrillo.
It's about time Ineos had a good rider prform they have been underpeforming for quite a while now, in my opinion.
@@rhbusby Considering their bankroll, ugh.
My prediction for the final top 10: Mas, Carapaz, Landa, Roglic, O'Connor, Rodriguez, Lipowitz, Yates, Skjelmose, Sivakov
Courageous picks. I can see it. Mas looks better every day. (and I’m rooting for Roglic).
I like how the communique handing down Roglic's punishment has Ref's Whistles down the right-hand margin.
I was really surprised that the drafting wasn't noticed and commented upon during commentary, so am pleased the UCI have done the right thing here.
10:21 I'd take a shot at that hoodie, thanks Dan!
1. Roglic
2. O'Connor
3. Mas
4. Landa
5. Carapaz
6. Skjelmose
7. Gaudu
8. Lipowitz
9. Rodríguez
10. Yates
I grudgingly agree 100% with your assessment. in real time as I watched this, I almost did a double take as I couldn't believe that they would blatantly flaunt their disdain for the rules. I'm pulling for Primoz, but you made great points that made great sense.
Spot on regarding the Roglic incident Dan.
Roglic got humiliated by Mas on that final climb anyway hence the slightly prickly post-stage.....Oh I didn't know where Ben O'Connor was BS....interview .
GCN Racing, nice video my guy
I want Roglic to win and I think that he was fairly punished.
I agree. No mechanic push or drafting for non breakdown bike change
Fully justified drafting penalty. Unnecessary bike changes just create more messy and possibly dangerous race situations and should not be rewarded. Kudos to the UCI judges
Dangerous? Your statement makes no sense at all.
@@andrehufschmid What if multiple riders suddenly decided to change bikes and dropped back through the peloton? - with a load of teammates, cars stopping all over the road, mechanics running in all directions amongst all the other cars and riders
Great video and this years La Vuelta has been the best race for years, thoroughly enjoyed every stage, nothing is guaranteed for sure!
Agreed. Vuelta is always the crazy grand Tour. Giro and Tour are more "predictable". And the huge amount of clmbing and heat this year threw a spanner into it as wll.
After you explain it that way, I totally agree :). Nice insight!
1. Roglič
2. O'Connor
3. Mas
4. Carapaz
5. Landa
6. Gaudu
7. Sivakov
8. Rodriguez
9. Skjelmose
10. Kuss
Yes, it was justified. I was watching live yesterday, when I saw that darfting I tought, a penalty is coming. Lucky for us fans, gives a little more excitment for the race!!!
Swapping bikes should not be allowed. End of story
Punishment was too soft
Top 10 prediction:
1 Roglic
2 Mas
3 Landa
4 O'Connor
5 Carapaz
6 Skjelmose
7 Lipowitz
8 Rodriguez
9 Gaudu
10 Yates
@dan, you are right about Roglic. In spite of him leaving the best team in the world, i'm still supporting him. But i actually think 20 seconds was a bit low. I think he is suffering under the pressure and i hope he pulls through.
I think bike change should only be allowed during a mountain TT stage. This is completely unnecessary in an ordinary stage (yes it's a very steep mountain stage but still).
Dan is 100% on the money here. And I’m glad he brought up bike changes in ITT. It’s not even debatable.
Fully agree, don’t like to see bike changes for perceived advantage. Should have to get back without assistance from the team car. Surely that bike Roglic took is under the 6.8kg weight limit as well?
Very well and compellingly explained - and fully agreed.
Unfortunately it is just one more exposure of the incompetence of BRB's DSs.
There are so many of them.
That team has much more potential.
Not so sure this was team management decisions to swap bikes. But rather the rider. He switched bikes for the mountains also in the 2023 Giro, and for sure that was not BRB but Visma.
NBC highlights only showed 2 seconds of Roglic riding behind the team car and my heart drop because I knew this would be an issue.
1. Roglič
2. Mas
3. O'Connor
4. Carapaz
5. Landa
6. Gaudu
7. Lipowitz
8. Skjelmose
9. Rodriguez
10. Yates
Satisfied of this Top 10. Nothing to lose either way, and expecting to be surprised in this final week.
prediction time!
1. Roglic
2. Ricky Mas
3. B'Oconnor
4. Landa
5. Richie Carapaz
6. Lipowitz
7. Rodriguez
8. Gaudu
9. Yates
10. Skjelmose
gonna be a fun last week
100% agree with you Dan. Yeah UCI need to get tougher on riding behind cars and sticky bottles. It never occurred to me before that the pushing of a rider by a team mechanic following a bike change should be penalised, good point well made.
Wheneer I see a sticky bottle I wondr Hmm, tht seems excessive What's up with that.?" How sticky does a bottle have to be to get a penalty. Thak for all those camera bike in and around the race. Nothn is hidden anylonger and that's a good ting as I see it.
Lets try this. :)
1. Roglič
2. O'Connor
3. Mas
4. Carapaz
5. Gaudu
6. Landa
7. Lipowitz
8. Sivakov
9. Skjelmose
10. Rodriguez
I’ve seen so many times changing a bike like TT stage and they allow it. I think this rule is confusing in my opinion. What makes the difference?
Should have had a penalty proportional to the time spent drafting. Additionally, if he swaps bikes again I would fully expect Decathlon to immediately put the hammer down.
It's a bit like saying 'I' m gonna punch you in the face, but first let me go get my knuckle duster '
Fair penalty. Lucky it wasn’t more
1. Roglič
2. Mas
3. O'Cooner
4. Carapaz
5. Landa
6. Skjelmose
7. Rodriguez Carlos
8. Gaudu
9. Adam Yates
10. Lipowitz
I actually think Sepp can get up into the top 10 also. He's 12th now.
@@slayer6936 Yeah, it depends on whether Lipowitz has to work hard for Roglič or anyone has a big crack
What’s a “ Coonor “ 😳
1. Rog
2. Ben O’Connor
3. Mas
4. Carapaz
5. Landa
6. Yates
7. Skjelmose
8. Carlos Rodríguez
9. Lipowitz
10. GC Kuss
Cavendish did something similar during the stage he won in the tour. Twice if memory serves. I couldn’t believe he got away with it. It should be an instant demotion to last on the stage. Dan is 100% correct. It’s calculated abuse of a reasonable leniency that everyone observes for crashes and mechanicals. In fact I would argue that changing to a significantly different specification of bike mid stage a la Team Sky should be banned altogether. Makes you wonder what other rules they think they can “bend.”
My predictions are:
1. Roglić
2. Mas
3. O'Connor
4. Landa
5. Carapaz
6. Rodriguez
7. Skjelmose
8. Sivakov
9. Yates
10. Gaudu
Without the time penalty I'm not sure if the bike change saved any time at all. Even with the drafting it still takes effort and energy catching back on.
But using th car has a real effect on reducing the the amount of energy. Try drafting a friend in a car on a lonely road and see how much it educes the enegy required. . Changing bikes - go right ahead, but no drafting back to the peleton. as long as both bikes are UCI legal
@@rhbusby I'm a retired racer and understand the benefit. I'm saying if he stayed on the 2x for the climb. Unless the 2x didn't have the gearing for the 24% pitch.
This was very justified. Happy for Benny, he still got all the changes for victory. Primoz isn't the most consistent rider in terms of staying upright on he's bike either, it's certainly getting really interesting. What a Vuelta!
Been rooting for Ben O’Connor ever since he put 6 mins on Roglic. I’m praying he hangs in there but Roglic Will inevitably be in Red come the final stage. Fully justified penalty. Should have been longer for trying to deliberately gain an advantage.
My final prediction for top 10:
1) Roglic
2) O'Connor
3) Mas
4) Landa
5) Carapaz
6) Skjelmose
7) Rodriguez
8) Gaudu
9) Yates
10) Kuss
My gut tells me that Sivakov and Lipowitz wont make it in the top 10 for the final week. I think Yates is better in the terrain then Sivakov, and Lipowitz may be needed to assist Roglic. I also think that Kuss has a small break away in him at some point - but maybe that's just whishfull thinking!
#1 Primoz Roglic
#2 Enric Mas
#3 Ben OConnor
#4 Richard Carapaz
#5 Mikel Landa
#6 Florian Lipowitz
#7 Mattias Skjelmose
#8 Carlos Rodriguez
#9 Adam Yates
#10 David Gaudu
As to the time penalty for Roglic…Slippery slope here. The penalty in this case may be justified, but what’s to stop a team from “claiming” to have a mechanical issue when in fact they really simply want to swap to a different bike? Consistency and subjectivity in rules application seem to come with “loopholes” for both officials and for riders.
I think it should work like an American football rule. You need to say ‘before’ the stage that you are going to make a bike change during the stage. Football has a rule saying you have to tell the ref you have a lineman acting like a receiver for a play. No misunderstandings.
@@Phlakaton88 ANY drafting should be disallowed, regardless of circumstances! Accidents and mechanicals happen...those are part of the sport. If I am held up in automobile traffic and, once the traffic is moving more normally, I am caught speeding since I am trying not to be late to an appointment, should the police officer give me a break? Absolutely not! "Bad luck" happens.
It's like the free lap rule in a criterium, due to a MECHANICAL issue or a crash. Pulling into the pit, changing bikes while telling the official "Oh yeah.....I like THIS bike better..." won't get you a free lap.
A light penalty for the huge draft, they could have gone for the minute, in my opinion. Penalty was good, amount is debatable. For the top 10: 1.Roglic 2.Mas 3.O"Connor 4.Landa 5.Carapaz. 6.Rodriguez (ineos). 7.Skjelmose. 8.Sivakov 9.Gaudu. 10.Kuss
YES!! .... His bike change was a conscious decision!, he did it for tactical reasons, it wasn't a puncture or mechanical, if he wants to do that for an advantage, he can hardly benefit for a huge draft to get back to the peloton he chose to leave. He was lucky it was only 20 secs!! Re Predictions... Think you nailed it.
Totally agree Dan. Primos should've had the book thrown at him in my opinion. His choice to swap bikes, his time to make up. I also totally agree with you on the TT scenario! Riders choice riders problem to get back up to speed. Nobody else should be involved. I wonder what Bora Red Bull would've done if O'Conner had been given a helping hand on the toughest gradients of the final climb on Sunday!
Well said and I agree with your thoughts. If the team wants to drop back to help him, it may be OK, It's part of cycling. No drafing the cars for a tactical advantage after a strategic bike swap. I'm often a critic of UCI decisions but they got this almost right - needed more of a penalty to make ans example.
@@rhbusby amen.
You make a good point here. Swapping bikes cost him a lot unfortunately.
It’s very much correct. I felt already strange when he ran behind the car along w three team mates
Absolutely perfect penalty. Didn't ruin the race, whilst still keeping accountability.
Fully agree with you, Dan.
It wasn't a mechanical, he just changed bikes so I think it fair to dock him for drafting from his team car.
Here's my prediction:
1. ROGLIČ Primož
2. O'CONNOR Ben
3. MAS Enric
4. CARAPAZ Richard
5. LANDA Mikel
6. GAUDU David
7. LIPOWITZ Florian
8. SKJELMOSE Mattias
9. RODRÍGUEZ Carlos
10. SIVAKOV Pavel
I missed your coverage of the TdF this year, Dan. Not sure if you were presenting on some other channel or media outlet.
Well done Zwift
Roglic was blessed he didn’t lose the race over it… 20 seconds was a gift.
All I know is my two favorite sports are playing out in Spain right now. I'm having to spilt my viewing time between the Vuelta and America Cup.
1. Roglic
2. Enric Mas
3. Mikel Landa
4. Skjelmose
5. Adam Yates
6. Richard Carapaz
7. Carlos Rodriguez
8. Sepp Kuss
9. Gaudu
10. Lipowitz
it was an absolute stupid bike change - on top of the 20s penalty he arrived at the bottom of the climb with fatigued legs due to the chase and he didn't have optimal gears due to the 1x bike he was on. Hopefully RBH finally will learn something about tactics - not the first mistake after all...
It appears that without the draft Roglic would never have seen the front of the race again. At the time the peleton were drilling it at 55 km/hr from 24 km to 18 km to go on a 2 degree incline. This is why the peleton was single file and 400 m long. As soon as it hits 5 degrees, then are popping out the back.
Penalize each rider on the team 1 minute.
Remember they were drafting at 72 to 78 km/ hr behind the car when the peleton was doing 55 km/hr.
This is not a flat tyre or a crash. Someone asked me,
Why he did not just get in the car and start cyling again when the car caught the peleton.
If Roglic 'wins' this tour, it will forever be known he did by cheating.
Ask Armstrong, Floyd Landis, Ricci, Contador etc.
Not robbed at all. Was shouting at my phone the entire (long period of) time. Unreal.
I have no problem with penalty for Roglic, but it would be nice to see them. Apply it all year long for everyone.
Top 10 Prediction:
1. Roglic
2. O'Connor
3. Mas
4. Landa
5. Carapaz
6. Rodriguez
7. Lipowitz
8. Yates
9. Gaudu
10. Skjelmose
1 - roglic
2 - mas
3 - O'Connor
4 - Carapaz
5 - Skjelmose
6 - Landa
7 - Rodríguez
8 - Gaudu
9 - Sivakov
10 - Lipowitz
why not:
Roglic
O‘Connor
Carapaz
Mas
Yates
Landa
Rodriguez
Lipowitz
Gaudu
Skjelmose
- hoping for the GCN Sweater, but even more for a great 3rd week.
Good for Roglic to get that penalty, I would have given him 40 seconds, even 60. I agree with Dan's opinion. Roglic later admitted it was a mistake that he switched bikes. He did't get robbed, that's a stupid headliner!
Way to bring the fury Dan. We don’t know when he would have caught back on without the car so the 20 seconds was a gift.
100% agree, if you make the choice to stop then you shouldn't get the leeway given to a rider forced to stop
Excellent opinion on rth Roglic 20 second penalty. I've always understood as you infer in your presentation that th comissas turn a blind eye on 'drafting" when it is permits a rider with mechanical or crash issues to return to the peloton. I've been watching cycling fo more than 30 years. The distinction is that Roglic and his team used the bike swap and allowing him to return to the peleton as an affirmative strategy and to gain an advantage. I agree with you that he was lucky to receive the minimal (20 ses) rather than a more substantial penalty. For me the tipping point is that it was a planned strategy to gain an advantage not to put him on equal foorting with th other rides. I freely admit Roglic is talented but "something' about him just doesn't sit right with me. He seems to consider himself special and abvoe all the others. He is not.
Top 10
1. Roglic
2. Carapaz
3. Mas
4. O’Conner
5. Landa
6. Sivakov
7. Gaudu
8. Lipowitz
9. Rodriguez
10. A. Yates
RANT ON! You are so right. 20 seconds is being kind.
I think part of the reason they look the other way when it's a puncture is the sheer size of the convoy. With 22 teams at the Vuelta, if each team only has 2 cars, that's 44 cars, plus official cars, plus neutral support, etc. It's probably impossible not to get some draft from that anyway. Further, most riders are just "surfing" the cars, tucking in, passing, tucking in, passing, etc, likely not spending considerable time behind any one car.
Given that Vollering got a20 second penalty at the 2023 TdFF for drafting, and she was coming back from a puncture, Roglic's penalty does maybe seem light, but absolutely justified and, for once from the UCI, consistent.
Also, on that incident, DS Danny Stam said "...we can lose the Tour de France on five seconds". Congratulations on being right.
1. Roglic
2. O'connor
3. Mas
4. Carapaz
5. Sivakov
6. Landa
7. Rodriguez
8 Skjelmose
9. Gaudu
10. Kuss
top 10 prediction:
1. Roglic
2. Mas
3. Carapaz
4. O'connor
5. Landa
6. Skjelmose
7. gaudu
8. sivakov
9. lipowitz
10. rodriguez
1. Roglic
2. Mas
3. O'Connor
4. Landa
5. Carapaz
6. Skjelmose
7. Lipowitz
8. Gaidu
9. C. Rodriguez
10. A. Yates
It is just sad that GCN is not neutral and doesn't talk about Cavendish being pulled by a car to avoid being hors délai at the Tour
Not as bad as ITV Sport with their daily Tour de Cav updates 🙄