Is this the end of Zinc (ZDDP) in oil?
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- Опубликовано: 14 дек 2022
- Zinc (also known as ZDDP, ZDTP or zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) is the most common lube oil additive. Patented in 1944, this molecular family has been used as low-cost, multifunctional additives in engine oils, transmission fluids, hydraulic fluids, gear oils, greases, and other lubricant applications. ZDDP’s' unique ability to act as an antiwear agent, an effective peroxide decomposer that protects against oxidation and corrosion and a mild extreme-pressure (EP) agent is what makes it the lubricant formulator’s best friend.
But lately, its popularity has been under attack. The rise of emissions regulations, exhaust after-treatment systems and new industrial lubrication requirements are driving formulators to alternative strategies. But finding replacements for a technology that has served the industry well for 80 years is complex, and end-users of lubricants will need to adapt their understanding of common lubricant degradation behaviours as formulations change. 
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Can you add a link to the magazine? I'm studying engineering and I'd love to learn more!
@@borandolph1267 precisionlubrication.com
Father was a 32 year machinist of old technology. He swore by STP zDdP
Because of its ability to do what it’s best at.
The first time I read an article about ZDDP was about 20 years ago. The article was on the subject of what affects the removal of ZDDP from Motor Oil would have on those people who owned classic cars that were built around the 1950s and 1960s. This was because cars of that era had flat tappets that would slide on top of a rotating camshaft. And that on those engines the ZDDP prevented excessive wear of the camshaft and tappets from occurring. The article also covered the use of ZDDP additives for classic cars that did not have catalytic converters. Basically ZDDP was removed from Motor Oil to prevent fouling of catalytic converters.
Correct!
Is there a good zddp additive for those of us who have flat tappet cammed cars & tractors?
@@disgracebook5708 It has been proven that adding these to a established oil package degrades the oil's protection abilities...in every instance. You are not a chemist and likely have no means to test these concoctions...what on earth prompts anyone to do these things? Don't worry about your oil's ZDDP concentrations...there is more than enough in modern oils for any application. You should be choosing your oil by film strength which is the gold standard for preventing metal to metal contact. The additive package is what makes or breaks any given oil.
Catalyst: Wonder if trees think CO2 is "pollution."
Thank You 😊😊
Zddp makes my car engine super smooth ..love it
It's very popular and widely used for a reason!
I don't know why this appeared in my suggested videos but I found it very interesting and I have now subscribed
Welcome aboard!
Seems that industrial applications would be better served by paying attention to heat management in the oil. Instead of just letting oil temps get out of sensible ranges and then demanding a new oil spec.
Yeah, this is the age old problem of OEMs designing for different objectives and then telling the lubricants industry to "just make it work".
@@LubricationExplained It's cheaper to design a machine with no oil cooler.
So you design the cheaper machine and demand a new oil that can cope with the heat.
@@bradmcgrath358 k
@@bradmcgrath358 that makes sense. I guess it keeps the price down at point of sale, but then effectively passes a higher service cost on to the owners afterwards which is a less obvious cost.
Most modern oils are good to nearly 400f
If your oil gets that high.
It’s either a stupid design or you’re working it wrong.
I deleted my oil cooler 10+ years ago.
The engine block, is it’s self,
A giant oil cooler
Tell me
How it is not an oil cooler
Subbed to the channel.
I'm an ex motor mechanic who is now in Underground mining maintenance and planning.
I have no formal training in the lubrication industry, but have built a some knowledge over the years.
I also have an unhealthy love of Enduro dirtbikes and try to share good information with other bike owners regarding their lubrication choices.
Great to see some in depth content on RUclips 👌
Great to hear! Thanks for the sub and I'll try to do some more mining-focused material in the future. And in a shameless plug - if anyone in your team needs formal training content I do have a bunch on my website. lubrication.expert
@@LubricationExplained
Thanks for the reply.
I'll check it out.
All the best.
This is a brilliant explanation of not just ZDPP but also the significance of using the right oil. I run classic cars through to a 2022 tractor and 4Wd. Each has specific lubricants and what's good in a 70 year old classic would be extremely unwise in a modern diesel or petrol vehicle.
Hat do you run in your flat tappet engines?
ZDDP breakdown at 110-120c is very relevant to car engines which see heavy use like in race cars. It's not unusual to see engine oil temps to 120, particularly if no cooler is fitted. Thanks for that info.
Just to clarify, the antiwear function is sometimes still preserved even after thermal degradation. The Zinc is just the carrier for the molecule - the phosphorous and sulphur do the "real" work. I've seen a lot of instances I've seen hydraulic packs where the zinc goes to sludge but the rest of the molecules continues to protect.
modern cars the engine coolant temp is 210f and oil temp is about 30 degrees higher
People should def watch their temps
Even in normal engines when driven hard they can get high
@@LubricationExplained Very interesting indeed !
I live in Florida where it's always "hot" and learned about synthetics and zinc in 1995, ran a lawn service and use 15W-50 synthetic oil (Mobil-1) plus one quart of synthetic "diesel" for the added zinc. Annual oil changes in vehicles, 2X annual in commercial lawn mowers.
No cat plugging or emission problems in hundreds of thousands of miles, however we don't have emissions testing here. No lost motors from wear, except 1 "pawn-shop" edger motor that may have been on it's last leg - seized up a piston. Mercury outboard 2-stroke run at 100:1 on AmsOil, I was giving all my 2-stroke motors a shot of the "zinc" Diesel oil periodically.
Same oil in motorcycles with the "zinc-Diesel" except one ended up with a slipping clutch at 32,000 miles, so a clutch-swap with a parts bike and different oil for that one.
The oil was too slippery for the clutch to grab! But still ride-able.
Engines - Chevy 305 and 350, Dodge 360, Chrysler 2.7, Chevy 5.3, Honda 500, Yamaha 750, 900, 1100, 1300, Kohler, Kawasaki, Briggs & Stratton, Stihl, Echo. Mercury 40, Mercruiser 135HP.
Hi Peter, (interesting what you said about not having emissions testing) - is that just in Florida or in all the US states? I’m in the U.K. and we have to have an annual test on all vehicles over three years old before they can be driven again, but on top of that If a roadside vehicle monitoring Officer suspects a vehicle is smoking too much it can be stopped on the roadside and sent for an emission test as above…
@@philtucker1224 a quick search and cut-paste
Alaska.
Arkansas.
Iowa doesn’t require vehicle inspection except for salvaged cars and commercial trucks.
Michigan doesn’t require vehicle inspection at all.
Minnesota only inspects commercial vehicles annually.
Mississippi only inspects commercial vehicles annually.
Montana.
North Dakota.
South Carolina doesn’t require inspections but applies property tax to vehicles.
South Dakota
- But - Florida isn't on the list. They pull you over for brake or headlight out, but not for a marker light, then they look for bald tires and have you honk your horn. The "fix-it" ticket used to be $14.00. I've been pulled for illegal window tint. It really depends on the cop's mood - he could write 1 ticket and give a "verbal" on the rest.
As for emissions, I rarely see someone blowing smoke anymore. Occasionally you can smell the "rotten egg" of a fowled converter, or a Ford running too rich, but for the most part cars today either run right or they don't run very well at all, so they take themselves off the road.
@@peterdarr383 Cheers Peter for that fantastic reply, I’m honoured that you gone to so much trouble with your research! Best wishes to you and your whole family for a great Christmas and successful new year! 🙏🎅🏼
Just a layman who enjoyed and appreciate this content.
I have an old 2000 4runner that specifies API service SF 5w30. Being that modern API standards are intended for vehicles with roller valve trains and do not have the same levels of anti wear additives, I have been using off the shelf 5w30 full synthetic also adding a ZDDP additive on oil changes.
Don’t overdo the zinc additive! Higher levels are not better, and can even attack bearing metals. The oil manufacturers are doing some pretty good chemistry with their latest oils, particularly Amsoil, Pennzoil, and Mobil One.
@@wallacegrommet9343 I use royal purple with BG MOA additive. It's API service SP I think.
@@wallacegrommet9343 there no well chemistry done by the manufactures! The only one main goal of the business - money !.
So as a result - they minimize cost and labor and cheaper oils and additives only to achieve minimal requirements of API standarts....
You are actually killing your oil with the additive...just the opposite of what you hoped for.
I have collector cars. They require ZDDP in the oil as it was standard in the oild they were designed for. Now I have to add it every oil change. This is a kick in the b@lls for collector car enthusiasts.
Yeah it's frustrating, but I guess its a little bit like leaded petrol. It will still be available, but more niche.
Try diesel oils which meet the Ford spec, at least you will get a bit more ZDDP. It's what I do in the motors that need it.
You can use 'multi specification' diesel oils for pre-dpf diesels. Diesels don't use 3-way cats (instead they use a more durable oxidation catalyst) so if they lack a dpf they can tolerate more ZDDP without catalyst failure.
ACEA A3/B4 is a common and good specification for this, many of them also comply with various API specs.
+1 for using diesel oil. The ppm on rotella zinc is just above 1100 which in my opinion is perfect for my mildly modified flat tappet cam 530 lift 230 duration. Done over 30k miles in that car running the rotella and the cam still specs 100% on point. I have another car that I converted to a roller cam so I can run whatever oil in it that’s always an option too. The roller cams are very nice and no one will ever know it’s there hehehe
What you need is Oil Extreme Concentrate added into your engine oil.
High Zinc or ZDDP is no guarantee for any engine.
High Calcium Sulphonate in Oil Extreme does a far better job.
your teaching is beyond exception. Top Score my friend
Carbon dioxide is still a harmless inert gas.
Excellent video, I was interested in the science of water retention in ZDDP, Moly also shares some of these problems.
The heat degradation...very interesting..thank you
I have definitely seen zinc causing issues in hydraulic systems. Interestingly enough when we transitioned to a low ash, zinc free synthetic hydraulic oil, the varnishing issues didn't decrease over time, even with more stringent filtering regime. What we found was the synthetic oil had such low conductivity that static discharging through the filters was breaking down the oil and forming varnish. The black discharge marks were really visible in the filters which helped us identify it.
Reminded me of seeing a bigass diesel crank ,freshly pulled from an engine and had all kinds of metal chips stuck to it.
Cause was a grounding issue with the starter and it was trying to "find" ground thru the crank(also witnessed on the pitted engine plain bearings)
Static can do strange things, I know on some electric motors they put a brush attached to the case and have it rub on the motor shaft.
Again, it'll try to find a ground thru a roller bearing and pit them.
@@MrTheHillfolk yeah it's wild hey. And expensive
While I was in the USMC they switched the hydraulic fluid in a certain aircraft.. and static electricity would buildup in the hydraulic test bench, and discharge through the 18 inch long 0 to 50gpm flow meter,(a heavy 2.5 inch diameter tapered glass tube) causing it to explode. I never witnessed it happen but I know of two flow meters that blew up in Iraq and at least one in mals-14, this was in 2010.
I took a sample and tried to see if the oil would breakdown, holding two sharp pieces of metal connected to a mot (a 2200vac transformer) and could not see the oil breakdown before I could feel the wires touch each other.
@@EldonJohansen That is really intriguing.
@@aSpyIntheHaus I was only 23 at the time and didn't really believe it but knew it was theoretically possible. Don't know what the result was, left the USMC in late 2011
Nothing makes me sadder than when a well loved compound goes to the great chemical refinery in the Earth's mantle.
Tears are falling into the keyboard as I type this.
Hey.... Nice video, matey. Kudos on explaining a complex topic in terms a lay person can absorb. P.S. Greets from Perth.
Good video.
Thanks for the time that you put into this.
My Machine Shop is a Engine Shop.
So you can see why I would be into ZDDP.
I just subscribed. 👍
Take care, Ed.
Thanks so much!
Good video. I will say though that ZDDP is still widely used in any non cat engine oils like small engine oil, marine, motorcycle, racing oil etc.
That's why you should always use the oil with the correct classifications for your engine.
Just to be clear, I think ZDDP will still exist just that the quantities will drastically reduce in most of the consumer / commercial engine oils. I'm sure as a drop-in additive or in racing oils it will keep on going strong, just niche.
@@LubricationExplained But penrites range of full syn ( mostly 5-30) extra zinc oils 🤔🤔😐🤔🤔
Many marine engines and almost all motorcycle engines have catalytic converters so their oils probably also have reduced ZDDP.
I'm no expert, but I have had oil analysis done on non auto oils like my Honda quad, outboard oils and they all have high levels of ZDDP. Some even advertise high Zinc on the bottle.
It's in all oils still...just reduced levels.
Thanks, very interesting. People don't realize the importance of lubricants. There are some very exotic lubricants I am aware of that offer some unique qualities and are sold to airlines, railroads, and major industries that can afford it, to see an economic benefit. This is something the regular folks would love to have in their passenger car but the expense that make it prohibited.
I could understand well about ZDDP. Thanks 🙂 Could you explain the mechanism in more details about what you said that the metal containing additives tend to hold on to quite a lot of water??
So, if I'm following you, ZDDP for transmissions and differentials should still be OK, because 1) their operating temperatures are much lower, 2) there's no catalyst to foul, and 3) they aren't sensitive to sludge like solenoids. Is that correct?
Seems to be a cruel HOAX just to convince us letting our engines going destroyed
Thx for your knowledge 💪🏽
Wow so glad to find this channel!
Us too!
@lubricationexplained love the channel, and found it by this video. Would you be able to talk about some EP additives that are replacing ZDDP. Maybe even talk about TCP, as in found in marvel mystery oil.
That "NEW" additive compound is indeed here. Petroleum Sulfonate EP
What happens to all the small engines out there that still need zinc in the oil? It’s not like OEMs can easily and cheaply redesign all their engines to use roller valve trains. As someone who has been involved in the industry for a lot of years as both a mechanic and shop owner, this is going to be a major headache going forward if zinc is removed from all engine oils.
The zinc is most all gone from your local automotive oils. With everyone going to roller cams, and running cats, its been reduced to its lowest acceptable levels. That being said, you can get Amsoil small engine oil that is packed full of the good stuff.
I think that ZDDP will still exist, just nowhere near the current quantities. I can see a future where it's still available as an after-market additive or in racing oils which don't need the protections of OEM warranties.
@@Just1Spark zinc is not gone from modern engine oils it has been cut back to around 800 ppm. In reference racing oil has 1375 ppm. You can also purchase zinc additives. Cenpeco racing oil has 2400 ppm zinc. Used a lot in tractor pulling.
In the U.S., ZDDP has been on the chopping block for years. Since the early 2000s, all road engine oils have had massive cuts to ZDDP content (or any other solid particle based additives). ZDDP usage is largely limited to aero engines and large marine applications (freight ships).
Yes then the Vortecs had Piston slap issues then we see the HEMI TICK Problems along with Ecoboost turbo failure along with G.M A.F.M Cam failure. I use my ZDDP Additive with pride.
@Chiefgeargrinder - have as much pride as you want. The problem with ZDDP is if your engine was designed to run without it, you run the risk of causing other issues by supplementing your oil. A good rule of thumb, is anything before 2007 should be okay... while anything 2008 or later shouldn't use it. Aside from causing piston ring and main bearing problems, it greatly accelerates wear in most roller lifters and cam followers in 2008+ engines.
Fascinating
Thanks!
Outside of catalyst fouling, are there downsides to adding ZDDP in modern engines that weren't designed to require it?
Great question! There's some evidence that too much ZDDP increases friction and that's why friction modifiers are also included. We covered it on the latest podcast episode. I'll try to clip the bit where we talked about it and post it as a shorter video.
@@LubricationExplained what's too much? I think my diesel oil is 1200ppm.
Modern synthetic oils have chemical additive packages that are carefully designed to address every aspect of lubricant parameters. Any retail product can degrade the oil performance potentially by disrupting the chemistry of the oil. Use the correct oil for your vehicle, a top filter designed for synthetic oil and extended oil change intervals for engine longevity.
So if ZDDP builds on a surface to make an anti-wear coating why is it not wanted in industrial transmissions or automotive manual gearboxes? In the 1980s I worked for a bus company that ran interstate express vehicles that clocked up an average of 30,000km per month. We were using spicer 7-speed crash boxes and were getting quite a bit of metal showing up in the oil testing after the 500,000 km mark. Our lubricant supplier felt that the boxes were sucking in dust or dirt as they were at the rear of the vehicle but silica readings in the lab tests did not bear this out. We had a contractor working for us with a vehicle that had just passed 500,000km and he used a different brand of oil so we lab tested his oil and found much lower metal in the oil. He was using molybdenum di-sulfide as an additive in his gearbox. We set up a test where the next two vehicles delivered new were sampled every two months with one vehicle having the additive and one not and the results were the same as the contractor's vehicle. The reason for it we were told by the additive supplier was that it built up on the mating surfaces and formed and kept metal surfaces apart better. So again why would you take out ZDDP if it would do a similar job? We started adding the Molybdenum to all the vehicles and we pushed out the gearbox rebuild Ks to 800,000.
Find an old transmission, put ZDDP in it an see what happens lol
As someone who does not live in an area of the world which requires emissions equipment and someone who is actively involved in disabling his own emissions equipment, I have no concern for the lifespan of a component which will be removed soon if not removed already. I will use as much Zinc as I like in my engine oil and there is nothing anyone can do to stop me.
I will single handedly warm the earth.
If it is, it will be the end of classic engines too.
Only if we allow it to happen. In the worst case I will buy a little zinc-mine and producing my OWN ZDDP ! No joke, I am a hard-liner -> F_ck the EPA !
Hexagonal Boron Nitrate and Tungsten Disulfide can be used to replace it and "Moly".
A combination of that, some newer "inert" sulphur EP, plus higher film thickness base oils.
Do you think new engine oil specification GF-6A with less zinc will provide the same engine protection as old engine oil specification ACEA A5/B5 with zinc?
So basically because the government's crusade on cheap affordable energy is leading to the end of an additive that is basically perfect. Sounds great for manufacturers who benefit from early engine failure.
🌟🌟
🙏 🤝 👍 just rebel !
All I know is 20 something years in the construction heavy equipment demolition tree and Grading etc etc etc most folks run Rotella oil and the motor is just run and run and run and run
And good old Rotella is made by SHELL . . . .
It will be around forever, it's like leaded fuel, you can still buy it.
I can buy a drum of leaded or a drum of 116 E85 it's all for sale just not at pumps. Same with ZDDP oils if you look you can find them.
I just tend to use what the oil company we use recommends and stick with that. I'm in Automotive and I have not has any issues using what oil companies recommend, apart from semi synthetic oils which I despise using, we rarely buy in full mineral oil so I can't really comment on those for engine use.
The semi synthetics always seem to varnish the inside of the engines partly due to customers doing 10k or 15k intervals on semi synthetic when the oil tech line states to do the adverse condition intervals at 7.5k with semi.
But yea when using full synthetic oils in engines they run fine, but most engines these days use rollers in the metal to metal contact areas. My 2.6l Triton 4G54 uses an OHC with wiper rockers and was re-built 40k ago, I use Penrite 15w-40 but it's extra 10 so they claim it's a 15w-50, it's full synthetic but I think it has ZDDP in it I'm not sure but it runs fine.
I just said the same thing in another comment reply! Great minds think alike 😀
Great explanation . Is it true ores rumor that ZDDP is aggressive to oil seals especially shaft seals ? Thank you for your help.
Very interesting video! I've got a 2021 Jeep with the 3.0L EcoDiesel that has a normal operation temperature of about 230 degrees F (110 C). The manual says I need to use a 5w40 Synthetic oil meeting API-SN and Material Spec MS-12991. My understanding is that an "API-Sx" classification indicates an oil for a gasoline engine versus an "API-Cx" which is intended for a diesel engine. Do you know, or have you already done a video that discusses why a diesel engine would specify a gas engine oil?
I've always been skeptical about the practicality and efficacy of ZDDP & other Zinc additives in oils. The idea of there being tiny metallic particulates in oil made me imagine the possibility of the Zinc building up in orifices among other places where it doesn't necessarily need the potential 'benefits' ZDDP may offer. I'm glad someone with a better understanding of the chemical/molecular break-down and processes was able to prove my skeptical cynicism wasn't completely unwarranted lol. Appreciate the input!
Thanks! Always nice to see our little industry get a bit of technical recognition.
Fk em. Oldtimer engines with flat tapped cams need it, and I WILL use it.
most interesting ... thanks a mint for this tutorial
Glad you enjoyed it!
So in other words, us classic V8 muscle car guys should think about ditching flat tappet camshafts for steel roller cams? There is a lot of evidence of increased failure rates of flat tappet cams and lifters, and attributing it to "chinese steel/iron" being softer etc etc - or is it that the break-in ZDDP additive package needs to be in EVERY oil change - not just the cam/lifter break-in cycle fill ? Great video, thanks💪 Subscribed🙏
Actually Rich Holdener recently did a video on this and surprisingly it is not from soft Chinese steel as everyone thinks. They tested thousands of lifters and all tested within specs for hardness. Where they found the problem was in the machining of the lifters where they didn’t have the correct profile. He even went into cam break in which he stated most likely had little effect. Second most common issue next to bad lifters was wrong oil type with too little zddp. He won’t build an engine anymore with a flat tappet but I’m positive you’d be fine using oil specifically made like Joe Gibbs to keep a current flat tappet engine running.
@@supersportimpalass Powell Machine Inc on yt also did a very comprehensive test of many cam cores and lifters and came to the same conclusion! 👍
@@johnkraft7461 I believe the camshaft and lifter failures that seem to be getting more common in the last couple years have been shown to be from poor machining of the lobes of the camshaft and them being ground too "sharply" rather than the material of the metal being too soft.
Lower profile could street run lower valve spring pressures?retro rollers spendy items
Thanks! And there's already been a good deal of excellent commentary below yours - so I'll just add that high ZDDP oils are probably always going to be around in the form of racing oils. They're not bound by ACEA / API rules so they can run higher quantities. The reality is, once your engine is out of warranty you can use whatever oil you want, including the racing oils.
Great video & full of great information
Glad you think so! Thanks!
So I've been trying to find a lubricant for my 3D printer linear rails, they use roller bearings. Have any thoughts on what oil/grease I should get? The rails are horizontal and vertical.
Super interesting!
Glad you think so!
I wouldn't worry there. There are oil manufacturers who specialize in oils with a high zinc content. And as long as the demand for classic cars and racing vehicles in particular is high, there will also be suppliers of oils with a high zinc content in the world.
How does the Rotrex oil work? The brochures say that the oil "momentarily" increases viscosity under high load.
Can my 2005 toyota tacoma prerunner truck use oil without this or is my truck new enough to use the new standard oil.
Since motor oils are generally backwards compatible, I wonder what modern chemistries they’re using in place of the old ZDDP?
There's some Moly and Boron additives which are starting to see wider use. There's also been a lot of work in changing the actually ZDDP molecules so that you need to use them in smaller quantities. The alcohol used to manufacture the ZDDP has a reasonably big influence on how it acts in the engine.
Really interesting!! I thought oil was just ah oil that lubes and removes heat
I would be curious to hear your opinion on what is contributing to camshaft failure (where the lobes wear off) in bucket lifter applications such as ford and nissan etc gas engines.. do you think it is related to the reduction of zddp in oil or perhaps poor manufacturing of the camshaft? Or something else?
1) people used shit oils with lean additive packages
2) neglected oil changes
3) the design is just very prone to premature wear and failure
@@alouisschafer7212 Yep. The mob is sooooooo mean . . .
This caught my attention because I noticed that zinc has been removed from denture cream. Why? I don't know. I know it's not healthy when using that cream for dentures over long time. I saw this and thought there is a relation from zinc being removed from this product as well as others and am wondering why the push to remove all the sudden.
zinc can cause brain injury (neurotoxin)
Cam mnufacturers will have a MAJOR problem with this. They specify zinc in the oil or will not warranty a cam.
Do you have any videos that talk about the new DEXOS 1 Gen 3 spec? It looks like it has a much better additive package for turbocharged engine. Other than that it seems very similar to Gen 2
Not yet! I'll look at adding it to the list.
The spec means nothing. It's all in the additive package and even your top tier oil manufacturers are beginning to skimp on them.
i'm recently hearing of zinc in oil. i'm confused as to what i should be doing. i have a 86' GM car BUT the engine is a brand new 350 sbc crate engine a reproduction for 87 - 95 HD trucks with hyrol flat tappet cam with maybe 1400 miles on it. next oil change will be 10w 40 synthetic, should i be adding zinc? also i do have cats (that i don't care about).
Your videos are excellent! Question: besides the moly analogue, are there currently replacements for ZDDP that solve the problem of catalytic deposition? Maybe a package of several different compounds to separately participate in the three regimes of the anti-wear coating? For the Fe/Zn regime, I was wondering if there could be a substitute that doesn’t have affinity for the Pt/Pd/… catalytic metals?
Thanks! I think most of the effort now if going into base oils that can provide more film strength plus things like Diamond-Like Coatings on cams so that not as much antiwear is required. We've been looking for ZDDP alternatives for a long time and still haven't found anything with the same performance-cost envelope.
Hello, I currently use a Zinc-free hydraulic lubricant in a Sacmi press, when carrying out lubricant analysis and noticed that sample after sample the Zinc trend is increasing, we have already ruled out fillings or additions with other types of lubricants, I ask, what Other possible ones exist to generate this increase in the trend of Zinc. Thank you!!!
Hi! The usual culprits are some kind of solder in the oil coolers or brass materials in the pump. But if you're able to provide some more detail, head over to the new community forum and post the oil analysis and some more details! Might be able to narrow it down some more for you. lubrication.expert/forums
Is high zinc also bad for o2 sensors? I heard somewhere that using too much zddp increases friction, I use archoil, dont know what's in it but it seems to be good stuff
Good question. As far as I'm aware, the situation on Zinc increasing friction is "undetermined". The logic is that you don't get a whole lot of control over surface film deposition so excessive ZDDP films can lead to higher friction - hence the inclusion of friction modifiers in the formulations.
I use Archoil 9100 in everything I own, my 7.3 diesel, my gearboxes, transfercases, diffs, snow blower, lawnmower, in everything. It’s nano borate, I wish I knew more about it. Sure keeps things clean.
My Grandfather Worked for Texaco His Entire Adult life, Except for WWII, and Korea. After Returning from Europe @ the End of WWII Texaco Sent Him Back to Collage for an Engineering Masters Degree in Lubrication. Where He Did Both Lab ( Prototype formulations & Field Testing, Pre- production with Commercial Accounts ). Unfortunately During the OPEC Oil Embargo Some Braineaic at Texaco picked An arbitrary age range and anybody younger or older than the bracket was either fired or retired depending on where you landed and my grandfather was retired and that just broke his heart and my grandfather was one of those while he was the greatest generation just took just his vacation and never called in sick but unfortunately was that age range where it was impossible to get rehired and that was it but when you would tell me the stories of what they would do to test new formulation was incredible and later when I was getting my A&P license we had a lot of World War II fighter pilots and bomber cruise that were instructors and what they would how they would fly their planes after getting the s*** shot out of them and that correlated a lot to the experiences my grandfather had working at Texaco with testing new oils and let me tell you it's amazing what just a little bit of film in an engine can do if you're just a little easy on the throttle.
Catalyst have been mandated on cars in the USA since 1974, 20+ year before the zinc debate. The old cars (before 1987 ish) had flat tappet cam shafts that depend on the zinc, without the zinc, cams can wear out in under 1000 miles.
So why did they take out the zinc? The EPA pressured the oil companies to do so sole because the zinc in very high milage cars "Could" have their O2 sensor become inoperative if the zinc built up from blowby. Clearly it caused more problems than is solved, or maybe it was part of a plan.
Pls provide the link for the magazine
precisionlubrication.com
ceratec addative from germany works great, and usa made restore addative work great also.
You mentioned right at the end that new better lubricant additives are coming.
Have you taken a look at XcelPlus which acts as a boundary lubricant but with none of the downsides of ZDDP?
🙂
They aren't coming the are already here thb
Yes, you're right some of these improved lubricants are already here.
Unfortunately, most videos fail to mention them. I've always wondered why.
:-)
what is better technology as compared to zinc if you want to replace it?
My question is, how much is required and how to assess what is a reasonable level ?
ZDDP is sacrificial in action. Will low levels provide protection for a short period of time, of if high pcontact pressures exist is a high % required from the start.
Lots of unanswered questions on this subject and few hard fact vs hype from specialty product manufacturers hoping to cash in on owners fear.
That's a good question. It's hard because there's so many factors. It's a combination of engine load (be it spring tension on valves, revs, rich burn or not), engine design (cam profile, location of cams, DI or not, turbo or not) and surface finished (finish on cams and tappets, materials, DLCs etc).
what are the substitue for zddp? is there any substance enhance motor power output same as zddp? mos2? boron?
Sort of…. The load creates the film. ZDDP remains in suspension until a load is applied, forcing the ZDDP to bind to the base metal.
Without a load, no bonding occurs
Air-cooled engines operate at a lot more than 110-120C.
Does the ZDDP break down in those?
Air-cooled engines certainly have shorter oil change intervals than water-cooled engines and generally don't last as long.
:-)
Has "Restore" engine restorer crossed your radar?
It claims to restore compression, and seems to be the only product that has been verified to do so, sometimes dramatically.
Contains various soft metals.
I cant seem to find any real info on it or long term effects.
I think molybdenum disulphide is an incredible anti-wear additive!!!
I swear by mos2 !!!
I'm sure ZDDP wil be produced for quite a time just to make hotrodders like me happy
🙏 🤝 👍 . . or vintage car owners like me . . . . F_ck the EPA . . .
Reason I use Puröl oil is high zddp and moly
Some motor oils are using titanium as an antiwear additive. Is it any good ?
Great question! I haven't really seen any data on it to make a call. Probably the most annoying thing is that the companies using is (mainly Castrol?) haven't shared the mechanism for how it works.
And Boron is said to help with wear & most oils show some in the VOA's.
I would not panic ZDDP is going nowhere in the near future. It is so heavily used in hydraulics and engine oils. It is relatively easy to make and manufactured all over the world. The real key is that 50% of the world's engine oils are below API SN so use high levels of ZDDP. Industry has had zinc free products for decades, often for technical reasons and many diesel trains have always been zinc free due to silver bearings. Industry has not got rid of chlorine additives with long chain chloro paraffins still in use, and that was a major drive 20 years ago successfully removing short and medium chains but the element chlorine is still an issue in disposal. The drive will always come from the consumer side, electric cars do not have to use ZDDP for example. The ironic thing is that cresyl phosphate esters are the common replacement and they have such a poor environment profile that above 1% potentially label the entire lubricant as environmentally hazardous.
should i use an additive for my non catalyzed flat tappet engine?
Absolutely mate ! Just give RED LINE ZDDP a TRY ! Won´t regret it . . . .
What books do you recommend for oil chemistry ?
That’s a good question. Depends on what level. There’s a lot of really advanced textbooks out there. But if your a mechanic / mechanical engineer looking for a basic chemistry primer I run a course on “lubricants chemistry for engineers” on the website. Yep, that’s a shameless plus 😛
@@LubricationExplained Thank you for your response. I will check it ;) . Phd studies in the field of mechanical engineering :)
So does ZDDP Ruin a catalytic converter?
Can I just buy it on Amazon and add it to my oil?
I own two 80s Nissan gas engines and run Rotella T4 diesel oil in them because of the yellow friendly zddp.I dont think it will hurt a 36 year old catalytic converter? I learned to do this from the internet so any experts here please let me know what you think.
oh I use redline synthetic mt-90 for everything else like dif and trans. Can anyone tell me if they do the same?
Like he said in the video, theres a possibility it can basically stick to the honeycombs in the cats.
I would suggest to look into like Royal Purple 'High Performance Street' line of motor oils that has their own formulation of ZDDP's pre-mixed-and it includes their ester molecules called 'synerlec' - like castrol magnatec.
You don't have to, but its one conclusion I arrived at-that having a pre-formulated oil was the best bet rather than gambling on stuff like STP ceramic additive, Cerma, or like Hot Shot's Secret Carbon nano tubes or like Liqui-Moly.
But, you could have fun trying them all.
What are they replacing ZDDP with?
Blend your own oil, or buy Redline or Schaefer’s or ZDDP additive
So when Liqui Moly Ceratec and Mos2 are said safe to catalytic converts. Is it a lie?
You threw me for a loop as what is the relevance of ZDDP in gear oils to catalytic converters? Neither my manual transmission or differential / third member vent through a catalytic converter.
Ahh, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Industrial gears used to contain larger amount of ZDDP but are now using alternative additives. In that case, it's not about catalyst fouling but rather that the industrial lubricants are designed to separate with water. Metal-containing additives tend to be "hygroscopic" which means they pull water out of the atmosphere - so for longer oil drain cycles in industrial, ZDDP no longer makes sense. ruclips.net/video/C_7qW2ir9kU/видео.html
@@LubricationExplained Thanks for the clarification and additional tid bit regarding the hygroscopic nature of this type of additives.
Back in the day, -60’s ~ -80’s, being from a northern climate, Maine, we frequently had issues with water - oil contamination, especially, in vehicles that got “short tripped”, during cold snaps. This sometimes resulted in PCV freeze ups, and pushing malted milk into the breather, and sometimes worse…
I attributed the water contamination to condensation and lack of dwell time at operating temperature.
Your tid bit regarding hygroscopic nature of the additive package, leaves me wondering if this is to a degree enough to have affected this issue?
What is going to replace ZDDP then? Why will it be replaced? Simply because of emissions?
Question is should I add ZDDP to my engine oil? Newer cars, say the wife’s Macan Turbo (damage cat?), my 2020 Triumph motorcycle (no cat), my 74 Norton, … 71 911, … 2006 911? And the list goes on!
no.
It will ruin your Catalytic Converters. Thats the main reason ZDDP is so low now.
hopefully rotella doesnt stop adding zinc.
Just to be clear, I think this transition will take decades! I'm sure it will still be around for a good while yet.
So why do car manufacturers don't control oil temperature so it stays below 100C?
Come back Zinc, come back!
-Jimmy
What are the “better technologies” out there?
There's a lot of interest in things like ionic fluids and some rather exotic base oils. But nothing that gives you the low cost / high performance of ZDDP.
You lost me when you said the ZDDP reduction was due to catalytic converters. ZDDP levels in API oils peaked in 1996, long after the Clean Air Act passed. While I don't doubt engine oil can damage catalytic converters, the question should be why is there oil in the converter, not what is in the oil.
While ZDDP levels have declined since 1996, other anti-wear additives have been increased, and today engine oils are quite good at preventing wear as well as lasting longer than ever. There is still ZDDP in engine oils.
The people on the bandwagon of cam failures blamed on ZDDP will love this video.
I wasn't around during that era, but having spoken to a number of the higher-profile formulators - that's got to do with tuning the ZDDP mix. As you'd probably be aware, there's an infinite variety of ZDDP molecules that can be produced, with most of the variation coming from the type of alcohol (primary/secondary, alkyl/aryl) used in the reaction to create them. To protect catalysts, formulators in the 80's started turning to lower-volatility ZDDP molecules (the logic is that lower volatility means less ZDDP ends up in the exhaust gases). The trade-off is that some of the low-volatility ZDDPs aren't as effective as in performing the antiwear function and therefore you need a higher concentration in the formulation to give you like-for-like performance. That's how you end up with higher Zinc concentrations in the 90's.
@@LubricationExplained Thanks for the reply. That begs the question, if a lower volatility ZDDP that was a bit less effective was used in higher concentration at the peak, is the reduced ZDDP concentration used now a less effective molecule, or has that ranged back the other direction? The sequence tests for valvetrain wear in overhead valve engines (test is now obsolete) showed wear was prevented at 600 ppm of ZDDP. Adding ZDDP to over 1700 ppm didn't change the wear, more ZDDP didn't make the components tested wear less. Yet people claim more ZDDP is needed. Is it because the specific ZDDP used is less effective?
My 2010 chevy malibu eats oil like 1 quart every 1000-1500 miles.
I've driven it 80,000 miles
It has always done this, with good full synthetic oil changes 3-5.
Why? Its the design of the motor.
1)Loose piston ring tolerances could be suspect
2)Around the throttle body, and inside the intake, there is sufficient evidence that it sucks a large amount of oil vapor back into the intake.
They make engines 'green' and keep pushing them into the ground.
@@sasquatchcrew If there is a path out, synthetic oil will find it! As frequently as you change it, you aren't getting full advantage of the synthetic. You could switch to a conventional or a blend, and maybe try an oil with a higher kinematic viscosity but the same SAE viscosity.
ZDDP kills catalytic converters are urban legend than facts. Low quality oils easily evaporates allowing the oil vapers into the cats. That process still takes years to clog a cat. I use a ZDDP Additive (Redline) and use a 2100 PPM Mix (Valvoline Advanced) on my twin turbo application with zero issues. Mean while Ecoboost engines get a bad Rap. ZDDP is critical for Turbo Protection and massively reduces the oil from coking.
Zinc is good
The question is what will it take to make up your own at home.
I haven't tried myself but from memory the chemicals that go into the process are pretty nasty!
You can just purchase it in concentrated form and pour it in your engine. GM EOS, and STP are two additives that have huge concentrations of zinc.
Bleh it's hard enough trying to find an oil today with enough zddp for old vehicles. Adding it as an additive is tricky because too much is as bad as not enough.
But if ZDDP was so good - why does wear still occur in engines? Is it just because of dry start-ups or because contamination and carbon soot gets in the way of ZDDP?
dry start ups and clutch starts that put pressure on dry thrust bearings don't help, taxis last pretty much forever because they rarely turn off
An accusump on engines should be industry standard imo
There are more wear mechanisms than metal-metal sliding contact. E.g. thermochemical mechanisms that wear cylinder liners and piston rings, metal fatigue causing the failure of rolling element bearings and cams, cavitation damage in areas with fast flow and too little oil pressure...
On a modern engine that is well looked after, the bearing shells are often still perfect when the engine is 'worn out'. Other components like cams, piston rings, elastomeric seals etc wear out first.
So what about running my 50 year old classic war without the stuff. Is it going to hurt an antique
They sell ZDDP in specialty oils, and as an additive.
Just give Red Line ZDDP a chance ! Won´t regret it . . .