I've seen this twice. Both on single fan rtu's. Unit was tripping on high head. Replaced cap, spilt condenser and cleaned. Unreal how much crap gets between those split coils. Also, labeling refrigerant removes a ton of headache. Nice work!
Amen Yes sir been in it since 1980 & lot charges & thats how ive tired kept up... call . ask read study what others have done ahead of me but to be Honest to me ...its getting way more complicated Than necessary save power bill but @ what costs
The bad cap on the one fan motor kept it from starting properly. Once the other fan started, it was pulling air back through the other fan causing it to start pinwheeling backwards.
Hey if they want to pay to replace every part that fails then by all means.. Fact it is going to be cheaper in the long run to buy a new one is irrelevant. Waste money. Tech is not here to teach you about bad financial decisions.
Yep, problem is these cheap ass business owners aren't about to pay 20,000 dollars for a new unit on a building they don't even know. They will make that shit last as long as possible.
The reason the fan is running the wrong way is it probably wasn’t running at all the other fan was pulling air in through the other fan making it spin like it’s running backwards
@@JeffsHVACAdventures Nice save for the Tennant! You're correct the motor is running backwards, but when the run cap is dead, a PSC motor will run either direction it's spun with, in this case the working motor drew air down thru the guard as the comments above mentioned, both are right!
that can happen from a weak or bad capacitor also, it just needs a little help from the wind or other fan pulling through it, causing it to spin backwards. alternate, some tool put in the wrong rotation motor or has the reversing wires flipped.(now days, very likely!) 😬
@@throttlebottle5906 Exactly... Basically The ambient airflow in the opposite direction takes the place of the capacitor and gives the blades a push start in the wrong direction.
This is a good example of how induction motors work. In a two fan parallel system, if one fan starts, it will blow air back out of the other motor/fan. That can allow an induction motor to "run" without having to go through the normal high-current start, and since it is backwards, it will continue to run backwards. Usually this result in higher than normal current flow, so possibly might be diagnosed via a simple ampere check on each motor. This can also happen in synchronous motors, for various reasons, including phase reversal. Usually happens in "high efficiency" motors, due to their low slip-frequency designs.
Jeff, You can check the saturated temp of a standing system vs ambient temp and usually determine what refrigerant you have in the system. Shut off that circuit, equalize it and average the evap and cond entering air temps and compare it to your saturated temp for 22 and 407 to see which one it matches closest (as long as it’s close to fully charged).
Some companies you just cant trust. The one that came to my house to check my 21 year old Trane 3 ton unit told me it could not be fixed. But the next company showed up found a pin hole leak in the copper line fixed it in like an hour saved me from getting a new unit for now he said it could last a few more years.
Not many will waste time repairing something that old.. you can cause other damage by putting heat on the old copper, or spend the time to repair it just to find something else wrong with it.. it's generally not worth our time..
I would definitely replace an aging Voyager now, because after January, he will only be able to get an A2L unit, and who knows what kinds of fun that will bring. It is good that the owner got mad, so those guys never have to worry about dealing with him again. For all we know, the other company did find the bad caps, but he was so mad that they didn't get as far as telling him that. One tip for you...I carry a bunch of the rounded brass schrader caps, and once I remove those antique hex caps that ruin the valve core opening, I replace the old caps with the new. HTH.
Three phase motor can also switch directions if they mistakenly swapped two of the wires when rewiring it so if you reconnect a previously working motor and this happens when you start then look to see which two wires you swapped.
As a business owner I can understand the frustration when service companies recommend expensive repairs unnecessarily. More than once I’ve gotten second opinion and had units fixed for a few hundred instead of a few thousand and the repairs lasted. I also understand that inexperienced techs can make mistakes but perhaps they shouldn’t be the ones to condemn equipment and this wouldn’t happen. I do get both sides but when it’s my money I’m not throwing it away and the best man gets the job.
Totally agree. We had one company come out, crappy tech, they tried to sell us a complete whole system, which had only about 3000-hours refrig use on it. Second company diagnosed the problem, and fixed it for for 80-dollars, standard one-hour fee. It was only one bad wire connection. The tech probably spent about 15-minutes inside the system.
Right an Rookie should not condemn an unit yall been serviced or married too for years , call & send A seasoned tech to get em back going but senor tech in this case forgot to call to gain necessary the protocol to access the Roof & customer blew up ..but sure theres more to the story Customer already had something this One thing dint end years of trust but broke the camels back n my opinion either way new customer & hes impressed greatly & hey that how we survive in this business being the best we can Be
Right. Question and be diligent. But do not knock the guy/gal learning. Be considerate, verify, ratify. Everyone’s happy that way. Not everyone is an expert, but most everyone aspires to be. The difference is experience. Every job adds to that.
6:41 - A bad capacitor will definitely cause the fan to run backward. Sometimes the AC would work at my tenant's home and sometimes it wouldn't. I asked her to contact me immediately when it wasn't working. She called and I asked her to turn the thermostat down so it would run till I got there (I was ten minutes away). Sure enough, the fan was running backward. I replace the dual run (30/5) and, Viola! Fixed. It's still operating after three years.
I have this EXACT issue with a trane at one of my stores. Replaced the fan motor with an OEM motor, replaced the capacitor, and it would just randomly run backwards. Not every time, but sometimes I'll go up there to work on something else and the fan is running backwards. Have still to figure it out but I am definitely gonna try changing the capacitor even tho it tested good out of the box.
@@arguedscarab7985 it's a single phase motor and has a capacitor. What I also thought about was the fact that the fan may have never actually turned on and the backwards rotation was caused by the air being pulled through the condenser by the other fan.
@jeff if you have issue with understanding the tonnage just remember digit 4-6 are your reference divide it by 12 only the even part if there is a 1 then it’s a high efficiency. So in your case it’s a 17.5 ton high efficiency.
Don't know if it's been mentioned but I block the dead fan with cardboard preventing windmilling to help cooling if I have to leave to get a new CFM. Unless it's really hot unit will cool until I get back.
I just had that same exact problem on that exact Trane unit(r410), also, supply air fan pulley was worn knocking down the original CFM's, I adjusted it now she is purring!!!!!!!
I work service and repair subbed through property managers and I gotta say I tend to trust service companies more than the customer. Landlord , owner , manager whatever. The stuff I see from them I dont trust them. They have unrealistic expectations on their highly used equipment. That being said there are bad service companies out there too. If I'm at a job and I catch any flack from owner , manager whatever I'm out. On to the next one. Most of them treat us like crap. Constantly making us wait or not being there when they say. Idk. Just My experience.
I work hot side, commercial food service repair. There's plenty of times where I get accused of stuff but it turns out we have never been to their site before. Sometimes they're mad because they call us out for an oven and suddenly need six other things repaired and I don't have my EPA certification because I am strictly hot side. I had a guy yesterday asking me to put gasoline in his refrigerator, it was very difficult to explain to him that I am not licensed to put gas in refrigeration systems
Totally agree. The customers are the worse, big time liars. The other day I went on a call back and my coworker only worked on the 1st floor condenser and the client admitted that but the problem was with the 2nd floor air handler. It was a bad capacitor on an old unit. Replaced it and he didn’t want to pay. Walked away, checked the dispatch and his payment information was there, charged him before I even got back to the truck, lol.
A lot of customers are stingy on price despite having very old units that are very neglected of maintenance. Then they blame everyone else except themselves.
If you don’t know what gas you have in a system or if it’s fractionated I would disconnect the compressors and run the unit fans only for 20-30 minutes letting the saturated temperature somewhat match ambient and the reference the pt chart.
One cond fan goes to the relay because it is controlled by a outdoor temp sensor going to the board. This is done for low ambient operations. If I find a bad fan capacitor I always replace the motor too. The thinking is the bad cap makes the fan motor run at higher than normal amps so failure will come happen sooner than later. The larger comp has been replaced and the smaller compressor is original. Judging by all that black stuff on the outside of the unit I bet the evap coil needs to be chemically cleaned.
I would never take a customer like that,gets upset for showing up too early.wonder what he is going to say,when you tell him he needs 1500 of refrigerant.
I guess he would just say no, which would be fine with me. And Too be fair, I didn’t know I was walking into all this when I first came out. I just thought I was a second opinion. Which we get a lot of. All this happened when I got on the job site. And you should always call the customer before showing up. Commercial or Residential
No he didn't even call to say he was coming out. With this building there are certain protocols needed to get on the roof. Approvals are needed, and keys are required that he might not have and has to make arrangements to get. You should always call a customer and let them know when you are coming.
You said the key thing. 'If I don't know I had to call for help.' That is what makes you one of the good ones. Today there are a lot more people that would blow smoke up your ass than call for help.
Smart phones are the greatest thing to every happen to any trade. Don't know the answer? The entirety of combined human knowledge is at your finger tips.
In my experience trane doesn't use two different compressors suggesting y2 has been replaced. That much oil would warrant a better leak check method. And I'll bet no one split that condenser to clean it. A little too much guess work for my liking.
I run a complex with 4 large heating/cooling units on the roof. A company that's always been used told me 2 needed to be replaced and gave me a price for almost 100,000. I got a new company in and they found an issue on both units and charged me 1,500. Always get a second or third opinion!!!
High head Pressure is usually due to poor cooling of the Condenser. My background is auto i had someone bring in a vehicle with 400+ head pressure all due to a cooling fan failure.
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Trane is this a split coil? I have many that I you split and wash the inner coil and the head pressure will drop. This will keep one compressor from tripping internal overload
As in every job, like when I used to work for time Warner as contractor that I was one of few that actually listened in training. Yea we called it cable camp..lol one week stay up in columbus Ohio all expenses paid, they actually had house inside a huge warehouse.. but I done it for over 9 yrs, but started getting to old to be climbing around in attics ..lol but I trained a lot of good techs actually out of a 100 I say 50 or so actually turned out to be our best techs.. I'm strictly by book.. and always told them over and over ... Cable one on one..use your meters on ope box outside where line coming from the tap on pole. Then check all outlets before anything else that way you can trace down which isn't good. No given you as a.c tech I'm sure you have that very first thing to check as in cable one on one that I learned now that your jobs one on one is to check out fans making sure its blowing out right. Now I'm gonna say this and I'm being honest.. I was almost a pea hair of going to havoc technical career center..lol swear I was.. I wished I have a long dam time ago..lol I have buddy his son started around time i took cable training and he's done got a huge log cabin home, a bunch of properties and after he came out of training he went straight to all Myers Square and removed condensers and relocated them when they started upgrading all they're stores.. but.. yea.. so yes as in any job specially yours, cable, and yea at steel mill I worked in middletown ohio of surroundings. But talking bout cable installs on business class modems, digi box's, and running arial drops rather from tap in front on pole to in back of homes which we call rear easement. I had guys call me as I was not only tech but field supervisor, had one call me and said, I can not get the MTA, (modem for phone&internet) first thing i asked him was, whats your signal levels? He got quiet so hanged up on him..not being mean it's just I knew he didn't check levels from outside ope box on house. Called me back said, why ya hang up. Again I said what's level's, mind you this guy was like everyday calling me for something he should've already known.. hung up again . Next time he called back I said reason why I done it is because Time Warner gave us brand new sweet ass meters with all the best applications for any kind of singles, noise levels, pro ber an pre bur for phone lines.. anyways.. he was like ahh man.. randy I'm sorry.. I said always number one before starting any job..another was if at anytime you go do phone job and they're keeping they're old number an we just after jobs done we call sprint they were ones that ported number over.. but yea.. get call from another..I hear in background house alarm going off.. right off I said, phone job huh..he was like how ya knew..I said then what is reason you calling me..again i told him whats the first thing you say right after you introduced yourself..( Do you have a house alarm) let me guess..you didnt .lol
Just my experience here but whenever I have seen a single phase condenser fan spinning backwards they have always been old motors on the outs that have broken days later and had me back out. I don’t think it’s a capacitor problem, but rather a bad motor problem. An AC capacitor just like an AC power supply does not have a polarity, what might be happening is that a bad capacitor in one is taking slightly longer than the other fan to get it going and if the fan blades are spinning backwards when it does get the motor going it will continue to run in the direction it was spinning, kind of like when reexpansion gas in a scroll makes it run backwards after a quick power outage without a time delay. The problem is you can never tell how long that was going on for or what damage it may have caused in the motor. Also, I have hosed down old condenser coils and found them to be shot in spite of physically looking ok. I have seen corroded coil fins near the ocean that look like they are intact until you hit them with the hose or touch them with your finger and they flake right off.
If you work on 3 phase systems, I would get a phase rotation meter. The other thing you could do is change the A and B phase on contactor to get the rotation correct.
@yngndrw. the capacitor is there to give the motor a jump start. Yes, 3 phase motor still have capacitors. On a 3 phase system, the most important thing to keep track of is motor rotation. If the rotation is backwards then the phases need to be swapped around so the motor will run in the right direction. All 3 phase motors are stamped with a direction arrow next to the armature to ensure the direction is correct. Single phase, or as some say, 2 phase, doesn't matter in almost all cases. This tech did the right thing by testing the capacitor on the motor first. A bad capacitor will do weird things to a motor, including make it run backwards. I've been an electrician for over 30 years now, and have tested many motor capacitors, and repaired many. This tech did an excellent job for this cutomer.
@@roneckler9937I'm a little confused. Do you mean when using a three phase motor from a single phase supply or a three phase motor from a three phase supply? You do of course need a capacitor when using one from a single phase supply to provide the extra leg and yes you could swap two wires to reverse it, but this unit has a three phase power supply available so I don't see why they wouldn't just power it from a native three phase supply in that case. I've never seen a three phase motor with a capacitor when it's powered from a three phase supply and I'm not even sure how you'd connect one in that case. The start capacitor is used with a single phase supply because there are dead spots in the sine wave, which are not there in a three phase supply. Of course if you have a three phase supply with a highly loaded motor, you may need to use a star delta starter but again there's no capacitor in that scenario. So from the above, logically we can say that this is a single phase motor (With a start winding) running from a single phase supply - As a three phase motor would have just used the three phase supply directly. I'm happy to learn something new if I'm wrong, but I just can't see how you'd connect a single start capacitor to a three phase motor across a three phase supply nor have I ever seen one like this in the wild.
The orange paint is factory from Trane. And if circuit 1 had 407c that compressor would be dead. Those 3D scroll compressors go out fasssst with 407c. Sometimes it only take a couple hours
Seeing the unit at the beginning of the video and listening to your introduction the first thing I would check is for an active heater counter acting the cooling. I had a call on an RTU throw me for a loop a long time ago as an apprentice. Is the the fan running backwards, or is it just spinning backwards off the other fans suction?
Plumber here.... not much HVAC work. We do NEW CONSTRUCTION install & very little service work. On the FEW service calls we go to, we HATE the "while you're here...can you look at blah, blah,blah... it's been leaking for 2 years." Every single time... a small issue can turn into a days worth of work when a) We don't do service b) we have 14 NEW HOMES we're trying to get plumbed for 4 different general contractors!!
@@masonreppeto882 You're describing every "SERVICE WORK" plumber, hungry for & looking for work... one's who only have a few days booked. In NEW CONSTRUCTION, we're booked out every day for the next 3 months on entire NEW homes,... not a leaking sink, dripping faucet or a running toilets.
The relay disables one fan when the outdoor air temp sensor connected to the rtrm is below 60 degrees. Some times Ive seen the sensor fail and then the rtrm thinks its insanely cold out and never enables the second fan. The paint on the compressor and filter dryer is from the factory.
Jeff, I am puzzled by the high Super Heat and High Subcool numbers. High superheat low charge, High subcool over charge. Is it possible there is a restriction on this unit? Did this unit have fixed orifice or txv? If you would help me understand so I can avoid any errors in diagnosis I would appreciate it. Thank you for your videos.
Fan runs backwards because capacitor, 3 phase blown phase in electrical or motor. Motor off and air blowing by. Blown fuse. But partial blown motor. Phase reversed.
27 years in the business, I’ve never seen single fan condensers with the motor running backwards with bad cap. Now dual fans like you have on that unit, yes.
@@JeffsHVACAdventures probably caused from convection through the fan from the heat of the condenser. But definitely not the fan motor windings causing it.
You did notice those charred yellow sleeves on those faston connectors on the back of the fuse holders, right ? Those connections either ARE or WERE getting very hot to do that. BAD CRIMP. Shoulda fixed that.
Went to school for HVAC back in early 90s.... ( Didn't finish unfortunately )... But that was one of the "common sense" things taught was check fan rotation! 👍
Old units are tough sometimes because there is an old saying: "You touch it, You own it". Meaning if it stops working after you have been there, owner calls you up saying you broke it. I've done work for free because I tell them it's on the way out very soon. and still get a call back my work was terrible because now it doesn't work three months later. Sheesh.
Good video. The larger or first stage compressor are the biggest pieces of crap. There made by Copeland when they first came out you could peel the sticker off and it would say Copeland.
Normal motors can turn both ways just depends on the polarity but and other stuff depending if it's AC or DC but no idee if there is a other kind of motor
I dont think they used R407C, it might be a dirty evap coil, but it's hard to say. Good catches on the CFMs, two things always circle my head when I see a motor spinning backwards, no power to motor or bad cap. They were probably intermittent and caused higher head pressure and lack of proper cooling. I feel there could be a restriction in the system possibly. Great vid, good work, those voyagers can be "fun" lol
The one issue I saw was the motor wires still hanging on the piping. The next problem will be a hole in the pipe because of a wire shorting to it. I love wire ties.
it's been my experience with almost anything that no one wants to fix anything anymore, they just want to replace parts and most of the time not even the right ones . .
Who’s to say if a service HVAC company would lie about the maintenance of the unit. Why not squirt a little oil to help sell the need for a unit replacement. I learned along time ago to get a second opinion then award the contract based on that opinion. If the diagnosis is the same, the first tech gets the job. If not, I have a new Tech servicing my units. I always get the right to fire or terminate an agreement if not satisfied or disagree with the way the work is proceeding.
Did you remember to tie the condenser fan wiring up off the refrigerant lines? It just takes a little wear and heat to arc across the line and blow the charge. That's a potential major catastrophe that has an easy fix.. ,
Looks like it's been like that for a few years so far😅 it only takes a few seconds to tape and zip tie a few things in place but whoever is doing service there over the years obviously didn't care.
@JeffsHVACAdventures nice! I been out of the game 15 years bc of a wreck. Quadriplegic now but i still help family w hvac issues. So do they replace connecting hoses unless need to add freon?
Is that an electrical meter WITH a capacitor tester??? I don’t know how many they make just like it, amp draw clamp, auto current detect, but no cap tester/meter
I had a new install like this. It was on a dental office and complaints were the same. Some cooling but not enough. I did a heat load calculation and it was sized properly. Come to find out the accurator piston couldn't travel all the way through the cylinder due to a flaw in the metal. It would get stuck just short of the mating surface and allow more refrigerant to flow rather than meter. It was a bear to get to but I tore the unit down to access the piston, cut it out and replaced it with heat dissipation gel and wet rags. Had to install a line dryer as well and thorough vac. No one had been able to find the issue prior. Carrier sent me in to troubleshoot. Just a manufacturing fluke.
I've seen this twice. Both on single fan rtu's. Unit was tripping on high head. Replaced cap, spilt condenser and cleaned. Unreal how much crap gets between those split coils. Also, labeling refrigerant removes a ton of headache. Nice work!
Been doing this for about 30yrs...we all can learn from one another...i learn something every day..
“Everydays a school day”
Steve Lav
Amen Yes sir been in it since 1980 & lot charges & thats how ive tired kept up... call . ask read study what others have done ahead of me but to be Honest to me ...its getting way more complicated Than necessary save power bill but @ what costs
@@JeffsHVACAdventures The Oil Man ? Oh, Dear Molly!
The bad cap on the one fan motor kept it from starting properly. Once the other fan started, it was pulling air back through the other fan causing it to start pinwheeling backwards.
You are absolutely right. 2nd stage for that motor
you are right.
Ooooh. And here i was wonderin how rotation could change due to bad cap
Sometimes even the wind will get the blade turning..
Bad Cap can cause a motor to run backwards.. I've just changed the fan and common wires, until I can replace the cap
"I know it's old, I know it needs replaced, but if i can get seven more years out of it before i retire, I'd appreciate it, mang."
Every time...
Spot on! Lol
Sell their problems to someone else.
Hey if they want to pay to replace every part that fails then by all means.. Fact it is going to be cheaper in the long run to buy a new one is irrelevant. Waste money. Tech is not here to teach you about bad financial decisions.
😂😂😂😂
Yep, problem is these cheap ass business owners aren't about to pay 20,000 dollars for a new unit on a building they don't even know. They will make that shit last as long as possible.
The reason the fan is running the wrong way is it probably wasn’t running at all the other fan was pulling air in through the other fan making it spin like it’s running backwards
I was about to comment this myself!
That’s what happens most of the time. But this time, it was actually running backwards.
@@JeffsHVACAdventures Nice save for the Tennant! You're correct the motor is running backwards, but when the run cap is dead, a PSC motor will run either direction it's spun with, in this case the working motor drew air down thru the guard as the comments above mentioned, both are right!
that can happen from a weak or bad capacitor also, it just needs a little help from the wind or other fan pulling through it, causing it to spin backwards.
alternate, some tool put in the wrong rotation motor or has the reversing wires flipped.(now days, very likely!) 😬
@@throttlebottle5906 Exactly... Basically The ambient airflow in the opposite direction takes the place of the capacitor and gives the blades a push start in the wrong direction.
This is a good example of how induction motors work. In a two fan parallel system, if one fan starts, it will blow air back out of the other motor/fan. That can allow an induction motor to "run" without having to go through the normal high-current start, and since it is backwards, it will continue to run backwards. Usually this result in higher than normal current flow, so possibly might be diagnosed via a simple ampere check on each motor. This can also happen in synchronous motors, for various reasons, including phase reversal. Usually happens in "high efficiency" motors, due to their low slip-frequency designs.
Awesome explanation. Thank you very much!
Jeff,
You can check the saturated temp of a standing system vs ambient temp and usually determine what refrigerant you have in the system.
Shut off that circuit, equalize it and average the evap and cond entering air temps and compare it to your saturated temp for 22 and 407 to see which one it matches closest (as long as it’s close to fully charged).
Good point
Some companies you just cant trust. The one that came to my house to check my 21 year old Trane 3 ton unit told me it could not be fixed. But the next company showed up found a pin hole leak in the copper line fixed it in like an hour saved me from getting a new unit for now he said it could last a few more years.
Good stuff brother.
1 hour? Sounds wrong
Not many will waste time repairing something that old.. you can cause other damage by putting heat on the old copper, or spend the time to repair it just to find something else wrong with it.. it's generally not worth our time..
I would definitely replace an aging Voyager now, because after January, he will only be able to get an A2L unit, and who knows what kinds of fun that will bring. It is good that the owner got mad, so those guys never have to worry about dealing with him again. For all we know, the other company did find the bad caps, but he was so mad that they didn't get as far as telling him that. One tip for you...I carry a bunch of the rounded brass schrader caps, and once I remove those antique hex caps that ruin the valve core opening, I replace the old caps with the new. HTH.
Three phase motor can also switch directions if they mistakenly swapped two of the wires when rewiring it so if you reconnect a previously working motor and this happens when you start then look to see which two wires you swapped.
As a business owner I can understand the frustration when service companies recommend expensive repairs unnecessarily. More than once I’ve gotten second opinion and had units fixed for a few hundred instead of a few thousand and the repairs lasted. I also understand that inexperienced techs can make mistakes but perhaps they shouldn’t be the ones to condemn equipment and this wouldn’t happen. I do get both sides but when it’s my money I’m not throwing it away and the best man gets the job.
Totally agree with you!
Totally agree. We had one company come out, crappy tech, they tried to sell us a complete whole system, which had only about 3000-hours refrig use on it. Second company diagnosed the problem, and fixed it for for 80-dollars, standard one-hour fee. It was only one bad wire connection. The tech probably spent about 15-minutes inside the system.
Right an Rookie should not condemn an unit yall been serviced or married too for years , call & send A seasoned tech to get em back going but senor tech in this case forgot to call to gain necessary the protocol to access the Roof & customer blew up ..but sure theres more to the story Customer already had something this One thing dint end years of trust but broke the camels back n my opinion either way new customer & hes impressed greatly & hey that how we survive in this business being the best we can Be
Right. Question and be diligent. But do not knock the guy/gal learning. Be considerate, verify, ratify. Everyone’s happy that way.
Not everyone is an expert, but most everyone aspires to be. The difference is experience. Every job adds to that.
You can never know everything so learning something new is always a good idea
Well said
yeah I agree hand over the fan before I even drop my bag down yet lol
Generally 1st thing I think of if I see a motor/fan running backwards is phases wired in reverse, Of course this is mainly with synchronous motors
6:41 - A bad capacitor will definitely cause the fan to run backward. Sometimes the AC would work at my tenant's home and sometimes it wouldn't. I asked her to contact me immediately when it wasn't working. She called and I asked her to turn the thermostat down so it would run till I got there (I was ten minutes away). Sure enough, the fan was running backward. I replace the dual run (30/5) and, Viola! Fixed. It's still operating after three years.
A blown fuse for 1 of the 3 phases could also make a fan run backwards. Had a bad motor master make one spin backwards too.
I have this EXACT issue with a trane at one of my stores. Replaced the fan motor with an OEM motor, replaced the capacitor, and it would just randomly run backwards. Not every time, but sometimes I'll go up there to work on something else and the fan is running backwards. Have still to figure it out but I am definitely gonna try changing the capacitor even tho it tested good out of the box.
It's probably because the 3 phase motor is wired incorrectly. Swap 2 wires
@@arguedscarab7985 it's a single phase motor and has a capacitor. What I also thought about was the fact that the fan may have never actually turned on and the backwards rotation was caused by the air being pulled through the condenser by the other fan.
@@AirsoftMemeNerd Yeah that's probable
Very nice to see people that really help you.
Nice work. It's always good to get new customers.
@jeff if you have issue with understanding the tonnage just remember digit 4-6 are your reference divide it by 12 only the even part if there is a 1 then it’s a high efficiency.
So in your case it’s a 17.5 ton high efficiency.
Nice work! Have to admit, first time I've seen a fan motor spin wrong with a bad cap, they just usually stop with my experience. Thanks Jeff.
NP. Thanks for watching
I like to carry brake cleaner on my truck for those oily spots. Saves time from trying to find a leak in the future. Good work
Thanks
Don't know if it's been mentioned but I block the dead fan with cardboard preventing windmilling to help cooling if I have to leave to get a new CFM. Unless it's really hot unit will cool until I get back.
I’ve done this trick before. For multiple days actually waiting for parts to come in.
I just had that same exact problem on that exact Trane unit(r410), also, supply air fan pulley was worn knocking down the original CFM's, I adjusted it now she is purring!!!!!!!
Good stuff
I work service and repair subbed through property managers and I gotta say I tend to trust service companies more than the customer. Landlord , owner , manager whatever. The stuff I see from them I dont trust them. They have unrealistic expectations on their highly used equipment. That being said there are bad service companies out there too. If I'm at a job and I catch any flack from owner , manager whatever I'm out. On to the next one. Most of them treat us like crap. Constantly making us wait or not being there when they say. Idk. Just My experience.
I’ve had plenty of bad ones too!
I work hot side, commercial food service repair. There's plenty of times where I get accused of stuff but it turns out we have never been to their site before. Sometimes they're mad because they call us out for an oven and suddenly need six other things repaired and I don't have my EPA certification because I am strictly hot side. I had a guy yesterday asking me to put gasoline in his refrigerator, it was very difficult to explain to him that I am not licensed to put gas in refrigeration systems
Totally agree. The customers are the worse, big time liars. The other day I went on a call back and my coworker only worked on the 1st floor condenser and the client admitted that but the problem was with the 2nd floor air handler. It was a bad capacitor on an old unit. Replaced it and he didn’t want to pay. Walked away, checked the dispatch and his payment information was there, charged him before I even got back to the truck, lol.
A lot of customers are stingy on price despite having very old units that are very neglected of maintenance. Then they blame everyone else except themselves.
Nice job & nice catch on the fans ... Thx
If you don’t know what gas you have in a system or if it’s fractionated I would disconnect the compressors and run the unit fans only for 20-30 minutes letting the saturated temperature somewhat match ambient and the reference the pt chart.
One cond fan goes to the relay because it is controlled by a outdoor temp sensor going to the board. This is done for low ambient operations. If I find a bad fan capacitor I always replace the motor too. The thinking is the bad cap makes the fan motor run at higher than normal amps so failure will come happen sooner than later. The larger comp has been replaced and the smaller compressor is original. Judging by all that black stuff on the outside of the unit I bet the evap coil needs to be chemically cleaned.
Those also have an outdoor temp control.. it will cut one fan off when it senses a low outdoor ambient.. it controls that cu fan relay..
I would never take a customer like that,gets upset for showing up too early.wonder what he is going to say,when you tell him he needs 1500 of refrigerant.
I guess he would just say no, which would be fine with me. And Too be fair, I didn’t know I was walking into all this when I first came out. I just thought I was a second opinion. Which we get a lot of. All this happened when I got on the job site. And you should always call the customer before showing up. Commercial or Residential
His time is no less important than yours.
Not necessarily when you’re on the clock trying to make a buck, I’ve charged landlords for a trip charge when I get there nobody’s home
No he didn't even call to say he was coming out. With this building there are certain protocols needed to get on the roof.
Approvals are needed, and keys are required that he might not have and has to make arrangements to get.
You should always call a customer and let them know when you are coming.
@earlestes8649 yeah, and if you didn't call, that is on you. It is people like you that give the industry a bad name.
Looks like a good catch , out company when we do a replacement we strongly advise our guys to mark in several places of the newer refrigerant
Good practice!
Good man Jeff, i learned plenty from you in this video
Good to hear.
You said the key thing. 'If I don't know I had to call for help.' That is what makes you one of the good ones. Today there are a lot more people that would blow smoke up your ass than call for help.
true, sometimes the thing is a simple information you didn't have prior.
Smart phones are the greatest thing to every happen to any trade. Don't know the answer? The entirety of combined human knowledge is at your finger tips.
In my experience trane doesn't use two different compressors suggesting y2 has been replaced. That much oil would warrant a better leak check method. And I'll bet no one split that condenser to clean it. A little too much guess work for my liking.
Thanks for commenting.
They do
I run a complex with 4 large heating/cooling units on the roof. A company that's always been used told me 2 needed to be replaced and gave me a price for almost 100,000. I got a new company in and they found an issue on both units and charged me 1,500. Always get a second or third opinion!!!
Built in the plant I retired from. Jim
High head Pressure is usually due to poor cooling of the Condenser. My background is auto i had someone bring in a vehicle with 400+ head pressure all due to a cooling fan failure.
Trane is this a split coil? I have many that I you split and wash the inner coil and the head pressure will drop. This will keep one compressor from tripping internal overload
As in every job, like when I used to work for time Warner as contractor that I was one of few that actually listened in training. Yea we called it cable camp..lol one week stay up in columbus Ohio all expenses paid, they actually had house inside a huge warehouse.. but I done it for over 9 yrs, but started getting to old to be climbing around in attics ..lol but I trained a lot of good techs actually out of a 100 I say 50 or so actually turned out to be our best techs.. I'm strictly by book.. and always told them over and over ... Cable one on one..use your meters on ope box outside where line coming from the tap on pole. Then check all outlets before anything else that way you can trace down which isn't good. No given you as a.c tech I'm sure you have that very first thing to check as in cable one on one that I learned now that your jobs one on one is to check out fans making sure its blowing out right. Now I'm gonna say this and I'm being honest.. I was almost a pea hair of going to havoc technical career center..lol swear I was.. I wished I have a long dam time ago..lol I have buddy his son started around time i took cable training and he's done got a huge log cabin home, a bunch of properties and after he came out of training he went straight to all Myers Square and removed condensers and relocated them when they started upgrading all they're stores.. but.. yea.. so yes as in any job specially yours, cable, and yea at steel mill I worked in middletown ohio of surroundings. But talking bout cable installs on business class modems, digi box's, and running arial drops rather from tap in front on pole to in back of homes which we call rear easement. I had guys call me as I was not only tech but field supervisor, had one call me and said, I can not get the MTA, (modem for phone&internet) first thing i asked him was, whats your signal levels? He got quiet so hanged up on him..not being mean it's just I knew he didn't check levels from outside ope box on house. Called me back said, why ya hang up. Again I said what's level's, mind you this guy was like everyday calling me for something he should've already known.. hung up again . Next time he called back I said reason why I done it is because Time Warner gave us brand new sweet ass meters with all the best applications for any kind of singles, noise levels, pro ber an pre bur for phone lines.. anyways.. he was like ahh man.. randy I'm sorry.. I said always number one before starting any job..another was if at anytime you go do phone job and they're keeping they're old number an we just after jobs done we call sprint they were ones that ported number over.. but yea.. get call from another..I hear in background house alarm going off.. right off I said, phone job huh..he was like how ya knew..I said then what is reason you calling me..again i told him whats the first thing you say right after you introduced yourself..( Do you have a house alarm) let me guess..you didnt .lol
It's a trane. The second fan only starts at a certain time when pressure or temperature setting is reached.
Just my experience here but whenever I have seen a single phase condenser fan spinning backwards they have always been old motors on the outs that have broken days later and had me back out. I don’t think it’s a capacitor problem, but rather a bad motor problem.
An AC capacitor just like an AC power supply does not have a polarity, what might be happening is that a bad capacitor in one is taking slightly longer than the other fan to get it going and if the fan blades are spinning backwards when it does get the motor going it will continue to run in the direction it was spinning, kind of like when reexpansion gas in a scroll makes it run backwards after a quick power outage without a time delay. The problem is you can never tell how long that was going on for or what damage it may have caused in the motor.
Also, I have hosed down old condenser coils and found them to be shot in spite of physically looking ok. I have seen corroded coil fins near the ocean that look like they are intact until you hit them with the hose or touch them with your finger and they flake right off.
If you work on 3 phase systems, I would get a phase rotation meter. The other thing you could do is change the A and B phase on contactor to get the rotation correct.
If it was a three-phase fan motor, I don't think it would need the capacitor.
@yngndrw. the capacitor is there to give the motor a jump start. Yes, 3 phase motor still have capacitors. On a 3 phase system, the most important thing to keep track of is motor rotation. If the rotation is backwards then the phases need to be swapped around so the motor will run in the right direction. All 3 phase motors are stamped with a direction arrow next to the armature to ensure the direction is correct. Single phase, or as some say, 2 phase, doesn't matter in almost all cases. This tech did the right thing by testing the capacitor on the motor first. A bad capacitor will do weird things to a motor, including make it run backwards. I've been an electrician for over 30 years now, and have tested many motor capacitors, and repaired many. This tech did an excellent job for this cutomer.
@@roneckler9937I'm a little confused. Do you mean when using a three phase motor from a single phase supply or a three phase motor from a three phase supply? You do of course need a capacitor when using one from a single phase supply to provide the extra leg and yes you could swap two wires to reverse it, but this unit has a three phase power supply available so I don't see why they wouldn't just power it from a native three phase supply in that case. I've never seen a three phase motor with a capacitor when it's powered from a three phase supply and I'm not even sure how you'd connect one in that case. The start capacitor is used with a single phase supply because there are dead spots in the sine wave, which are not there in a three phase supply. Of course if you have a three phase supply with a highly loaded motor, you may need to use a star delta starter but again there's no capacitor in that scenario.
So from the above, logically we can say that this is a single phase motor (With a start winding) running from a single phase supply - As a three phase motor would have just used the three phase supply directly.
I'm happy to learn something new if I'm wrong, but I just can't see how you'd connect a single start capacitor to a three phase motor across a three phase supply nor have I ever seen one like this in the wild.
The orange paint is factory from Trane. And if circuit 1 had 407c that compressor would be dead. Those 3D scroll compressors go out fasssst with 407c. Sometimes it only take a couple hours
Seeing the unit at the beginning of the video and listening to your introduction the first thing I would check is for an active heater counter acting the cooling. I had a call on an RTU throw me for a loop a long time ago as an apprentice. Is the the fan running backwards, or is it just spinning backwards off the other fans suction?
Plumber here.... not much HVAC work. We do NEW CONSTRUCTION install & very little service work. On the FEW service calls we go to, we HATE the "while you're here...can you look at blah, blah,blah... it's been leaking for 2 years." Every single time... a small issue can turn into a days worth of work when
a) We don't do service
b) we have 14 NEW HOMES we're trying to get plumbed for 4 different general contractors!!
It's funny because plumbers tend to go out of their way to find more issues with our plumbing themselves rather than us pointing it out XD.
@@masonreppeto882 You're describing every "SERVICE WORK" plumber, hungry for & looking for work... one's who only have a few days booked.
In NEW CONSTRUCTION, we're booked out every day for the next 3 months on entire NEW homes,... not a leaking sink, dripping faucet or a running toilets.
@@jeffrandolf5673 Do you do new construction because it's easier or just that it pays more for the amount of work? This is a genuine question.
If you hook up brown lead to C and the purple to fan on cap it will run backwards
Nice cable management
Imagine that, a customer knows it's junk but wants miracles . Craps on anyone who can't perform the miracle under his terms. Typical
The relay disables one fan when the outdoor air temp sensor connected to the rtrm is below 60 degrees. Some times Ive seen the sensor fail and then the rtrm thinks its insanely cold out and never enables the second fan. The paint on the compressor and filter dryer is from the factory.
Good info, appreciate that!
I worked on a rooftop that a so-called pro replaced the fan 3 phase running backward, I switched two leads and it worked fine.
Yup. I’ve went behind guys that have worse whole units backwards. lol.
Bro I do residential but and the hand over the fan is spot on 😂
Hell yea
I use a big stencil and spray paint to mark 407 on the side.
Good idea
I spy the Preston Frog. 😂 Great video!
That’s him! Thanks.
If you can find information on unit compressor for what type freon , see if owner has records of service and see if it shows type freon used
Yea I asked him, he showed no record of Freon change. Of course he’s only owned the space for 3 years.
Jeff, I am puzzled by the high Super Heat and High Subcool numbers. High superheat low charge, High subcool over charge. Is it possible there is a restriction on this unit? Did this unit have fixed orifice or txv? If you would help me understand so I can avoid any errors in diagnosis I would appreciate it. Thank you for your videos.
What about high super heat normal sub cool
Great video. Thank you for sharing
Thanks
Fan runs backwards because capacitor, 3 phase blown phase in electrical or motor. Motor off and air blowing by. Blown fuse. But partial blown motor. Phase reversed.
You fixed it. What is not to like :)
Other CFM pulls air through causing to turn backwards
With a fan motor that large it’s very possible to reverse directions by rewiring the wires in the very back of the motor itself
Wonder if a tech did an acid test to check the windings pn a compressor. Even done properly it can get messy. Seem s lot of oil spray
Well done; God bless!!!
Thanks!
27 years in the business, I’ve never seen single fan condensers with the motor running backwards with bad cap. Now dual fans like you have on that unit, yes.
I’ve seen it 4 times total. Only one time was on a single fan Resi unit with a dual cap.
@@JeffsHVACAdventures probably caused from convection through the fan from the heat of the condenser. But definitely not the fan motor windings causing it.
Always condemn the capacitors before checking anything else,seen too many capacitors explode due to power surges
You did notice those charred yellow sleeves on those faston connectors on the back of the fuse holders, right ? Those connections either ARE or WERE getting very hot to do that. BAD CRIMP. Shoulda fixed that.
Went to school for HVAC back in early 90s.... ( Didn't finish unfortunately )... But that was one of the "common sense" things taught was check fan rotation! 👍
put a delay on make for stage 2 compressor, if not a 2 stage cool thermostat
As an electrician i can honestly say the method of wiring on hvac is highly fcked up.
As an electronics technician, I have to agree HVAC cable management and dressing is trash.
That bigger comp for sure has been changed out. New one is probably 407c. Took the 22 retro to 407c. Buttt at least add the damn sticker.
That’s what I was thinking.
Old units are tough sometimes because there is an old saying: "You touch it, You own it". Meaning if it stops working after you have been there, owner calls you up saying you broke it. I've done work for free because I tell them it's on the way out very soon. and still get a call back my work was terrible because now it doesn't work three months later. Sheesh.
That is a very true statement.
Good video. The larger or first stage compressor are the biggest pieces of crap. There made by Copeland when they first came out you could peel the sticker off and it would say Copeland.
Figures.
Normal motors can turn both ways just depends on the polarity but and other stuff depending if it's AC or DC but no idee if there is a other kind of motor
I dont think they used R407C, it might be a dirty evap coil, but it's hard to say. Good catches on the CFMs, two things always circle my head when I see a motor spinning backwards, no power to motor or bad cap. They were probably intermittent and caused higher head pressure and lack of proper cooling. I feel there could be a restriction in the system possibly. Great vid, good work, those voyagers can be "fun" lol
Cfm would spin in the opp direction with a bad cap on a three phase?! How bout that.. i had no idea😮
Filters, evap coil, belt? On that unit just divide the model by 12 for tonnage. So 17.5.
The one issue I saw was the motor wires still hanging on the piping. The next problem will be a hole in the pipe because of a wire shorting to it. I love wire ties.
I pulled them into the electrical compartment. Just didn’t get it on film.
From the way it looks, the first stage comp has been changed.. the second stage was not.. that orange paint is a tell-tell from factory
it's been my experience with almost anything that no one wants to fix anything anymore, they just want to replace parts and most of the time not even the right ones . .
Right you are!
How come you didn't ty wrap condenser fan motor wires up off the piping
I did. I just didn’t film it.
Who’s to say if a service HVAC company would lie about the maintenance of the unit. Why not squirt a little oil to help sell the need for a unit replacement. I learned along time ago to get a second opinion then award the contract based on that opinion. If the diagnosis is the same, the first tech gets the job. If not, I have a new Tech servicing my units. I always get the right to fire or terminate an agreement if not satisfied or disagree with the way the work is proceeding.
Well said.
"...he's just tryin' to get by." Owner probably says that every summer LOL
At the same time. Further you diagnoses by investigating the heat exchanger. Since you probably have your drill with you.
You say, experienced, a simple lesson prior, came in handy. No need for experience, just knowledge: Look Hands here, Measure here like this.
Done.
Well said.
Did you remember to tie the condenser fan wiring up off the refrigerant lines? It just takes a little wear and heat to arc across the line and blow the charge. That's a potential major catastrophe that has an easy fix.. ,
Looks like it's been like that for a few years so far😅 it only takes a few seconds to tape and zip tie a few things in place but whoever is doing service there over the years obviously didn't care.
I pulled them into the electrical compartment
This guy seems trustworthy. Probably why he's an independent contractor.
What were the black n orange probes attached to the copper lines?
Are those how you were checking the pressure digitally?
Yea.. Testo Bluetooth probes. Sends all the readings right to my phone.
@JeffsHVACAdventures nice! I been out of the game 15 years bc of a wreck. Quadriplegic now but i still help family w hvac issues.
So do they replace connecting hoses unless need to add freon?
The 'orange paint' is an epoxy to stop rust
I had a contractor do that once it was puzzling to say the least
Is that an electrical meter WITH a capacitor tester??? I don’t know how many they make just like it, amp draw clamp, auto current detect, but no cap tester/meter
Yea it is. Most HVAC based meters come with the cap testers now
@@JeffsHVACAdventures very convenient
More and more now, companies no longer want to troubleshoot and repair units. They just want to replace immediately
Yup. Seeing it all the time.
Tye up fan wires!!!
Hand over the fan ...110 % yes sir 2 reason fan direction & is iT Discharging heat
You said it!
That 3 wires are have tape on it ? That are blank coper cable for testing?
Yea some guys do that to jump the system out for testing
Y1/y2 jumped automatically turns 2nd stage cooling run 8 wire call it a day
How do you jump it to bypass the time delay? 7:52
I was just talking about jumping Y1 out.
I had a new install like this. It was on a dental office and complaints were the same. Some cooling but not enough. I did a heat load calculation and it was sized properly. Come to find out the accurator piston couldn't travel all the way through the cylinder due to a flaw in the metal. It would get stuck just short of the mating surface and allow more refrigerant to flow rather than meter. It was a bear to get to but I tore the unit down to access the piston, cut it out and replaced it with heat dissipation gel and wet rags. Had to install a line dryer as well and thorough vac. No one had been able to find the issue prior. Carrier sent me in to troubleshoot. Just a manufacturing fluke.
Yikes. Sounds like a total pain!
Ability Refrigerants sells R-22 still reasonable.
I think I would have added some plastic guard for those wires that one over those pipes
I pulled them into the electrical compartment
@@JeffsHVACAdventures
👍
Hope you managed the wires! That just bugs me to no end!
Didn’t film it but I did. Pulled them into the electrical section and secured them.
"Life's goal: pet all the dogs" I'm not a dog person but I like that sticker in your van. 👍
Thanks. One of my favorites too! 🤙
What brand/app set up do you use at 9:52? For the system stats
That’s the Measure Quik app.