Framing the Perfect Wall. Can High Performance be Affordable?
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- Опубликовано: 2 апр 2024
- Discover the latest insights from Jordan Smith on the Smith House channel! In this episode, Jordan delves into the critical elements of building a resilient and healthy home. Focusing on the significance of continuous exterior insulation and rain screens, Jordan sheds light on their affordability and benefits, challenging traditional building methods. Join him for an engaging discussion filled with practical tips for crafting functional and sustainable homes. Don't forget to subscribe and share your thoughts in the comments section below!
Can you make a video on how to detail the exterior insulation around the windows and doors?
That’s a great idea for a video. I’ll put it in the queue.
About time!... a practical perspective on "how to" construct. There's too many videos that are so over the top with building science, belt n suspenders and bottomless budget, builders. Keep it simple, keep it practical, keeps it affordable. Great video Jordan!
Glad it was helpful!
Jordan Smith, Wondering if your going to do a follow-up on the roof, to include the roofs insulation on your previous video(s) "Building a Massive Glass Window Wall" I would enjoy seeing it??? Liked#59 N Subscribed !!!
Thanks for detailing this. I live in WI so we have to worry about cold more than warm climates. I'm currently living in a 1989 built home with 2x4 exterior framing and 1" pink foam board with 3/8" plywood siding. The builder at the time did a terrible job air sealing (didn't tape the foam seams, especially at the foundation) so a lot of cold air enters the wall cavity. Not good from a condensation and varmint perspective but when I reside the home, this will get addressed. Agree with keeping the framing warm by having exterior insulation, this will help prevent thermal bridging and on some older homes here, you can see dark lines on drywall due to dust/smoke collecting on the cold studs. Obviously you can keep increasing the thermal performance by going 2" exterior foam board and/or 2x6" 24" OC but depends on the cost benefit analysis. Code here is R19 walls or better, how you achieve that is up to the builder/client. Spend a little more on materials now or more electricity/gas to heat/cool long term later.
Great explanation of why to do those details. Looking forward to hearing about the roof system. I've been trying to wrap my head around how to do the roof like what you have illustrated. Hope you can possibly explain if there is a difference between warm and cold climates doing it that way.
Excellent video! I like the science behind the design. Thank you for putting out the costs too.
Thank you!
Would have been interesting to see a price comparison with zip r. As for splitting hairs, what you save on tape, you're going to spend on screws.
Last I checked zip R will be about 50% more than the OSB polyiso option. It’s a product and definitely worth considering. I just wanted to see how cheaply we could get an exterior insulation home built. Zip is a gateway drug! Next thing, you know, you’re sourcing timber fiber insulation from Europe, and filling your attic full of sheep wool! 😅
@@JordanSmithBuilds those would be some very interesting price comparisons. Go from this cheapest option all the way to the most expensive!
Jordan, How do you attached the soffit framing to the wall (through the insulation)? A video on this would be helpful also!
I was wondering this too. It seems some sort of standoff is needed, but not sure if a product/practice is already available that won’t compromise the work put into the envelope.
That’s a great idea. I’ll do a detailing video here in a bit. Thanks for the comment!
Agreed. The soffit framing detail seems critical and the best method isn’t at all apparent, at least not to me. Thanks Jordan. Keep them coming.
I keep saying this: The insulation belongs on the OUTSIDE of the wall. It's a no-brainer. Thanks for explaining why. :)
Exactly!
@@JordanSmithBuilds In Germany, like 98% of all insulation is done from the outside and it's called Wärmedämmverbundsystem. Isn't that a wonderful German word also?? ;)
In a cold climate I think you would want your air sealing plane to be more inboard than the exterior insulation. It seems like air could potentially get to the backside of those taped joints and create a moisture load there unless you did something on the interior like airtight drywall or vapour barrier etc or air tight sheathing. But no doubt great assembly for Austin.
Thank you for wording my question better than my novice mind could. I'm in Vermont
If you're in a colder, dry climate, you're off. I'm a colorado builder and outside WRB is fine. Super dry air on the inside in cold wet times of year will pull vapor in. Think sub 10% humidity on interior air.
If you're in a wet area, maybe you're right. I don't know actual performance issues.
@@sparksmcgee6641 Im not addressing vapour drive as if your using well installed materials with appropriate perm ratings that shouldn't be much of a problem. The issue is condensation of even low absolute humidity moisture present in the home, at the tape joints. In the real world in most cases its probably not much of a risk but doesn't seem completely foolproof.
I'm in Vermont, we're lucky if we have low humidity.
@whiskey4553 I know that. But it dries as vapor, and if there is a "negative vapor load" sucking to the inside because of the low moisture,
1. It greatly reduces the chance of condensation.
2. Dries it very quickly. Presumably in less than 12 hours.
If you have the condensation happening and drying to the outside, into a much worse air profile that you don't control. It's way less resilient.
As an example Ihad a plumbing device fail and flood 3 stories my house for 10 days. The restoration company came in and set up. I then let them know I could do X, Y and Z with systems in my house to extract moisture.
They gave me the whole line about all their professional equipment ect..... that they give all customers. Which was the right answer.
Later in the day a supervisor had shown up and there was a dehumidifier on every circuit in my house.
They asked to do those things with my HVAC system to help out. Took they dry out down to 30% of the expected time.
Being on the right side of the energy load to solve you're problem is always best.
Wet winter areas I'd have my barrier as far out as possible, otherwise I'd have to fight the status of winter in vermont vs fighting the status of the air inside of my house.
Good design for warm climates.
Here's my plan. Roof: Advanced framing 24" OC, 9.5" i-joists rafters covered by 5/8" LP Techshield with R13 faced batt insulation leaving about a 6" vented air gap for easily a total R value of R17'ish. My gable attic gable walls will be faced R13. R40 blown-in insulation over the ceiling joists. I'll use the new clipped recessed lights with a bowl / dome sitting over the light glued to the attic side of drywall, further reducing air penetration through the light into the conditioned space. Wall: Advanced framing 24" OC, 2x6 studs with R23 Rockwool. Menards sells 3/4" R3 EPS foam boards for $10 to wrap the house. I'll then overlay taped 1/2" OSB. Then, I plan to paint it with a solid deck sealant like Olympic. With sometime like taped Zip or my equivalent, I don't see the need for an exterior airgap, given I have a modest thermal bridge and a total wall R value of 26. No worries. Hey, thanks for deleting my post yesterday, Jordan! Nice censorship!
Great advice about the small home. We can make choices that are practical and turn back from the bigger is better bs. We had 7 kids in 1140 sq foot home before moving to a “bigger” 2300 sq foot home. Kids were not unhappy in the least.
Thanks, this is great! I frame in north Idaho.
I love the idea since I'm about to build and this is very relevant to me. It would be very interesting to see how the cost of this 2"x4" with exterior ISO compares with 2"x6" w/zip, but without exterior ISO (similar R value).
Have you ever looked into double wall construction with large gap between inside and outside wall?
Yeah! That’s a really good way of getting extra insulation on the interior. I still would have some of my insulation on the exterior just to prevent having any conductive loops or condensation problems on the inside of the wall.
Great video Jordan!
Thanks, Dan!
Great content & perfectly presented. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. It's nice to see how an attainable home can be built using proper building science. Would love to see you & some others (Matt Risinger) present options for folks that can't afford a million dollar home but would love to be able to have a well built & higher performance home that we all can afford.
Glad it was helpful!
Hey this is awesome thanks. I’m Getting ready to build my 800sqft on a pier and beam. DIY
Good luck!
It's all about the money for spec builders. High performance all the way. I'm leaning towards SIP panels. The company B. PUBLIC does things very well.
Thank you so much for this! I want to start building the right way and some of my wall assembly details have been a hindrance cost wise.
Glad it was helpful!
Hi. Great video. Could you comment on that ability to hang a ledger board through this perfect wall assembly?
Specifically, I am thinking about longer overhangs at the roof line that require additional support while the wall assembly will have continuous insulation running to the roofline. (This may be a similar question for any cantilevering or porch add-ons.)
I believe the root of the question is on the compressibility of the foam. I have seen another video (via Risinger) where this is done on Zip-R. I assume direct attachment of a ledger board to the OSB side is stronger. Would it work this way?
Looking forward to the roof video!
Thanks for the great education! It's been 3 weeks; where's the video on this roof? 🎉❤
I'm working on a similar design but want to use either foil faced insulation or a big roll of aluminum radiant barrier on the outside of the insulation, then furring strips. I think this would be especially useful on the roof.
R Max has a foil facer. I think it would be a good choice for your concept
Thanks for this ideas. I am in the North Western Oregon marine climate and we have long periods of rainy damp weather. That weather is my biggest concern in doing any type of exterior insultation due to possibility of getting moisture behind the exterior insultation and having a difficulty drying out. I hope to overcome that concern.
Roof video! Let's keep it going!
I actually shot a insulation and roof framing video combined, but it was like 20 minutes long so I had to reshoot it and just concentrate on insulation
How about a zip house with tyvec, air space, then siding?
Could you do a video detailing what, if any, HVAC air exchange would be necessary for an assembly like this?
I was also wondering if there would be any offset savings on the HVAC system.
Great question. I’ll put that in the queue!
Going w/ Zip R9 would cost less and give you a slightly better thermal rating. Then you’d have the benefit of using the Zip at fenestrations.
The reason I suggest this is I am not convinced exterior insulation vs insulated Zip (insulation just outside the sheathing vs just inside the sheathing) is critical in warm climate zones where air conditioning is run 75-90 percent of the year and heating is run 10-25 of the year.
The moisture condenses on the face of the cold surface on the material separating it from the heat. In that case, having the insulation just inside the face of sheathing would be preferable (as on Zip R), no?
I write all the above WITH the caveat that I am very much willing to be instructed otherwise, if the explanation is specific to how the same formula/application for/of materials work for BOTH very cold AND very warm climates.
Thanks
I love zip r!! I have used it on past projects and will probably use it again. Having said that, there ain’t no way that zip r cost less than OSB and polyiso for similar R values. My last price check had about 50% more expensive. There is a lot of great products out there and one of them have different strengths and costs. The purpose of this detail is to get exterior insulation at the most bang for your buck.
As far as whether insulation on the insider outside of the sheathing, I’m pretty neutral. However, as the thickness of the insulation increases, it pushes the sheathing further out away from the studs which forces you to think about nail length and pattern to maintain your shear capability.
@@JordanSmithBuilds :: I’m seeing the Rmax at $47 and OSB 7/16” at $24, with Zip R6 at $78.
You’re right. I thought the polyiso sheets ran higher.
Appreciate the feedback Jordan
Im remodeling our entire home and are replacing all windows(and deleting some unnecessary ones) with low e. Im using drain wrap and plan on (2) 1 inch layers of poly iso(with staggered seams and taped) with a rain screen and cement board and batten cladding.The interior insulation is rockwool r-15. Im curious what my estimated r value is,as i didnt know an aor gap increases the value. Thank you fornyour tike and love watching yoir videos!!!
Colorado spec builders mostly do R19 in a 2x6 wall with Tyvek
Best ive seen is zip here
you don't talk about the insulated zip sheets? Is that not as good as having the foam on the outside of the osb?
Why wouldn't you use zip r?
I love zip r! I’ve used it a lot. But it’s one of the more expensive options. The point of this video was to see if we could do something close to regular zip while still getting exterior insulation.
Once you consider the labor involved in going around the house again with the phone, and putting strips down to fasten your siding and less than competent laborers doing the work you'll probably spend the same and get an inferior job just my opinion
@anamerican5693 his design is pretty idiot proof through a year 2030 idiot, since we're improving our new idiots every year.
I am so glad I came across this video!! I have been working as an architectural manager for a couple of builders in Austin, TX, and it drives me nuts they use T Ply. That thing is the cheapest cardboard trash any builder can use! I wish they would be willing to spend more time in their spec homes to build better quality homes.
Me too. I hate to just rant, but I feel like somebody needs to bang the drum so that hopefully people will start understanding the difference in quality and will choose to go with builders that don’t just try to build the cheapest thing they legally can.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment !
I 100% agree!!! Most volume builders just do an OK home, yet clients pay so much for a home. It blows my mind. I know you are based in Austin, so I would like to visit any of our sites!
50 percent of people don't care about houses. Those people will always be a market for cheap. It's just not their thing.
The foam tape is also thinner and more fragile
Don't know what you're talking about there. Most construction tapes are very strong in their use. You don't get your tape at HD if you're doing this kind of work.
Good job, do you draw plans for canadians?
I haven’t seen insulated drywall board in Canada or the US, it’s common in Europe. It’s an easier way to achieve this. It comes in 1/2” to 3” foiled lined kingspan foam on 1/2” or 5/8” drywall board. Great video btw.
It’s definitely a great way of getting continuous insulation, but I think it’s on the wrong side of the wall. Especially if you are building with wood like we do in North America. Putting the insulation on the outside not only improves the energy efficiency and comfort of the occupants, but also protects the interior of the wall from condensation problems.
Nice video. One of my concerns is foil faced polyiso is zero perm so if water gets behind the polyiso it cannot dry to the outside. Can it dry to the inside?
Yeah. Wherever you have your vapor barrier is where the dry line will be. Everything to the left will dry to the outside and everything to the right will have to dry to the inside. With exterior insulation, you can go either vapor open or vapor closed with impunity…. Almost. buildingscience.com has some great write ups discussing this!
Just found your page, I'm in Vermont, what do you think about ZipR 9 to foam roof deck with a double wall inside insulated with dense pack cellulose? *I'm not a builder but trying to find an affordable net zero build (1000sqft with walk out basement)
11:16 youre numbers here are off a bit is that supposed to be zip with insulation at $28?
curious what is the cost of a home build like this versus a generic home. in Austin i see home build with paper instead of osb as walls...
I see that around here too 🤮. It probably would cost the homebuilder a few thousand dollars more to do this detail. So if you’re building a home for yourself, it makes total sense. However if you’re a spectrum builder building 100 homes a year - it equates to around a quarter million dollar straight to the bottom line.
Remember: “we build to specifications or spec” means “we build to MINIMUM required by LAW”….”the shittiest we’re legal required to build to”
That looks like you cut and pasted some of my comments from decades ago.😊
Actually is building to code being the worst legacy built home.
Spec is for a product, installing one Simpson Tie to spec meets code. Using the same Tie of a higher gauge to spec exceeds code considerably.
It’s also important that people understand that when the code calls for a wood framed wall to have R13 insulation in the cavity and R10 continuous, that the Effective R of the wall framing layer is more like R6 . (Assuming 3-1/2 studs @ 16 OC.) R value of polyisocyanurate is 7 when it’s new, but its long term R value is more like 5.5-6. Read the code carefully to understand where it calls for R of insulation vs. R of assembly. One final note…I hear people say that designing for total continuous insulation is better and the cavity insulation is no longer needed, but filling cavities also shuts down convective air movement, which is a lesser considered but real mode of heat transfer.
@scottperry3124 there's a little cavity airflow but really it doesn't move out of a bay because of fire blocking.
The point of assembly vs proscribed is an area people .ess up a lot.
How can we get this exterior insulation to concrete block homes?
I would use a high-quality construction adhesive.
I think there's a secret in the building industry, and it's "what exactly is the best bang-for-the-buck in exterior insulation design". The answer is not clear, not standardized, and it varies by region, so it's not common knowledge. Fastener costs alone factor in. I think there is a lot of room for good products and good content about exterior insulation.
Exterior XPS or EPS is a big NO for Cold climates zone 6 and above. Cold climates need to vent to the exterior of wall. It is really frustrating when differences in climate zone is not discussed and the wall assembly properly designed for the climate. cold climate requires vapor barrier xps and eps to the interior side of wall structure. exterior sheathing must breath/ vent moisture to rain screen vent.
Hi there! Exterior Insulation can be (and I think should be) used in any climate zone. Don't just take my word for it, though, here is a great article by the God Father of building science - Dr. Lstiburek : buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-031-building-in-extreme-cold
Jordan is so amused by calling people "a big dummy". He had to pause to even work up the nerve to say rude like that and then afterward he starts giggling like a little kid...
lol… I tried 🤷:)
Talk me out of RAYCORES.
Zip in theory is great in practice not so much. And no jordannit can’t be dverythingbuiu wantbiecsrucco stone brick etc
Did you have a stroke? Are you OK?
Sorry a 1400 sf gable box with asphalt shingles and hardboard is not distinctive or even very attractive don’t hate me
I don’t hate you. I agree. The drawing used here was for demonstration purposes and cost calculations only. You can get as creative as you want and the wall system still works!
Awesome info!! TY.
I live south of Houston, Tx in 1682 single family built in 1952. Could I redo 35 -40 yr old exterior plastic crap replacement effectively???!!
How do you keep bugs out of the air gap behind siding?Wasps like to burrow in foam.
We run a vent screen across the bottom. Same thing in the soffit vents.
I think we are really obsessed with sealing a house. If that is the case people better learn to clean. I smell mold in many homes I visit and they are all new. There must be a heat recovery unit exchanging the air (8% heat/cooling loss)
You definitely have to have a cohesive strategy that incorporates fresh air and doesn’t allow biological growth . I don’t think building a leaky house is a good strategy. Your car is likely built very airtight, but you can bring fresh air in through the ventilation system at will. Same should be true of our houses.