Does Squirtle look better in 3D?
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
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What I think would be nice is if they could carry over what they did in Legends Arceus, where they have separate animations for standing in the world VS standing in battle. Luxray is the prime example, standing straight when placed in the overworld but actively crouching down ready to pounce when used in a fight. It'd be a lot of work to implement, but I like to think it would help.
The problem is, of course, that there are a thousand pokemon. Even if the next generation only uses half of them, adding one animation to every pokemon means adding _several hundred animations,_ with a limited ability to share animations between pokemon because so many of them have unique body plans or distinctive appendages which need to be animated.
And pokemon need multiple animations for each kind of thing the devs want them to do. Playing around the campfire? At least one animation for each kind of toy, one for running around, maybe one for play-fighting other 'mons, definitely one for nuzzling against the player character. Battle animations include idle loops, hit reacts, attacks, transitions between the idle loop and other animations, etc.
This is an entirely self-inflicted problem, but that doesn't make it _not_ a problem.
@@timothymclean Yeah I was thinking about this exact thing. It would be so so so much work, so much that I doubt it would ever happen. Which really sucks because it was great in LA.
@@rubyamateurtactician4354it’s the highest grossing media franshise in the world. I think they can afford to outsource some work if they need to.
Typhlosion is also a great example. Out of battle, its flames are off, but in battle they're always on, not just when it attacks compared to previous game.
It would be nice if they did what they did in SV, you mean?
At the very least, Blastoise once again uses his cannons in 3d and his hydro pumps don’t come out of his forehead anymore.
Hydro sweat
Blastoise's swimming animations also don't look half bad in SV.
Pokémon fans when they’re given the bare minimum of effort:
The funny thing is, blastoise has never fired hydro pump out of its cannons, it’s just that you don’t notice in 2d because it’s inherently a much more abstract form
@@umezonorsit isn’t the bare minimum, you’re just wrong
One thing I've noticed with a lot of the sprites is that they're a lot more vibrant than the models. And I think that kind of helps carry the whimsical charm of some pokemon
Exactly. The first time I played X & Y, I was wondering why the older Pokemon looked so washed out. And Pokemon do have animations they do while idle in battle...but it takes so long for them to play and the camera spun around so much it was hard to notice.
Yeah, the majority of games after going 3D have had severely washed out colors. I have no idea why.
@@danielquinlan2457 They seem to match the official Sugimori art colorwise a bit more so that might have been why they did that.
@@mjangelvortexthe official sugimori art is also incorrect due to faulty scans. Not too long ago we got proper scans of the art and they were far more vibrant. And even then I feel like every pokemon that was initially concieved as a 2D sprite got washed out in 3D, which encompasses pokemon outside of the classic sugimori style
I miss the data is sprites, even if those games are grinds. That was when people didn't have the attention span or time of a gnat
“Stiff” remains the best way to describe so many 3D Pokemon. Even static sprites had this sense of dynamism that gets lost when they become head-bobbing default poses
Bro, it's an idle animation for a rpg.
I guess you want all the models ro be doing the stick bug instead?
@@DJPrimeAmvsThey could do SOMETHING, man.
@@captainmega6310 i reiterate the point of being idle is that they stand there waiting on a command. He'll technically they do have more animations when they're idle we just never see them because the videos never actually show them.
They need more battle animations as all, it makes sense than their default standing there pose wouldnr have them like... standing on one leg or some other wacky poses the sprites had
There is a thing being tooo static as well. At least in some of earlier 3d pokemon games they gave life to them even in their idles.@@DJPrimeAmvs
All 3 look like their centre of gravity is off
Thats the case with a lot of models
never thought about that wow
I'm not sure if I'm seeing that, it feels like at least for 1 and 2 the tail is balancing the forward lean out for the most part
some sprites were updated in scarlet and violet, blastoise included and it at least has more dynamic attacks, it actually shoots water out of its cannons now
2024 and we're grateful that Blastoise actually shoots water from its cannons. Pokemon really is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
@@Laterose15it really isn’t the bottom of the barrel, if they had to go through and make custom animations, even just for specific moves, on every Pokémon, the games would never come out, which is something they cannot do. That is why dexit happened, it takes so much work to make even this level of animation quality that it would be near impossible to do it with over double the pokemon
We really should’ve NOT needed to wait this long.
@@kachosuffer7 no, but at least we got it finally
@@Laterose15 scraping the bottom of the barrel is when SV are their 3rd best performing games ever
Granted yes I do agree the graphic quality of the games should be significantly better, my point is that if we're judging whether pokemon look better in 3d, we should use the SV models, like imo Charizard is so much better in SV than it was previously.
What I do want to say is that it's not game freaks fault btw, they're a surprisingly small studio with so many projects to do, really it's the pokemon company itself that doesn't give the devs enough time to do anything, as we saw with SV, it forced them to give production of the diamond and pearl remakes to a third party and those games were really mediocre. But yes the quality should be significantly better for the highest grossing media franchise of all time, they've given them a lot of time to work on legends ZA so hopefully we see results
Squirtle's shell always felt a bit too flat for me in 3D
Well all Pokémon can look great in 3D if the battle simulators count
Just shows that there isn't close to enough work being put into the 3d animations of pokemon. They really have to work on that big time for the next games
@@MrMettwurst96 I really don't get why they just couldn't keep on using those models if gen 6 had been for Wii U not only would the Wii U maybe have been a success but they could keep reusing the models from Battle Revolution just adding gen 5 and 6 Pokemon
He’s looking at the laziest 3D incarnations of Pokémon and proclaiming adding an extra dimension is largely detrimental. It’s kind of like me looking at R/B/G sprites and declaring that 2D Pokémon look bad. Furthermore if you’re going to determine what is quality mostly through how lively a Pokémon is, 3D has much more potential than 2D. There’s a lot more personality portrayed in the 3D games like Colosseum than there was in the Pokémon sprites in the GBA games, conveniently this is never mentioned by pro pixel art fans.
@@protocetid I mean, he's looking at the newest and thus most relevant 3d versions. But yea since the premise of the series is "can 3d pokemon look good" you're right to point that out
@@MrMettwurst96 Those are not the Scarlet and Violet models.
I really enjoy the fact that Gamefreak has updated the models a touch to add more style and character. Not all are created equal but the Scarlet and Violet Kanto starters got new models and in the case of Blastoise/Charizard, new animations since Charizard no longer floats forever, as well as new poses for many Pokémon in battle and out of battle.
Scarlet and Violet actually added a bit more to make Blastoise one of the better 3d models. Its arms are no longer stuck forward and it has some great animations when traversing and in battle. One of the few that became pretty good over time
I feel like this series is going to be less of 3d model fault and more like a fault of not having more than one idle animation.
Honestly I love Blastoise’s model in S/V
Worst offender of the 2D-3D stiffening imo was one of my favorite Pokémon- Hippowdon. The sprites show it aggressive, swimming through sand, snapping its jaws and ready for battle. The 3D models have it standing, mouth closed, slightly shifting weight
Blastoise got a terribly short end of the stick. We're not even gonna talk about his cannon situation for like a decade.
“Look how they massacared my boy” perfectly sums up the 3D transition
There’s a few very rare exceptions but for the most part they all lose their personality.
Its a real shame too, because 3D pokemon is in theory such a good idea
3D blastoise definitely cant do sick kick flips like its yellow sprite can😂
Do you use any of the S/V models? The 3 starters have an updated model in those games.
Unfortunately, I don't have access to those models :/
Also, afaik they're not actually substantively different?
@@TBSkyenShorts
Depends. A lot of Kanto pokemon got newer models, not exactly substantial. However the 3 starts I would argue look substantially better.
Venusaur has a different expression, and more frog like animations.
Charazard has a better face, and a standing battle animation alongside a flying one.
Blastoise no longer looks stiff and awkward, plus his cannons now actually shoot water.
Also all pokemon have better textures in S/V.
I decided to look them up and wow the difference is actually night and day,
@@TBSkyenShortsSome of them are. Persian got a complete design overhaul compared to its XY model.
@@thecrabman2074mewtwo looks different too having its body lengthened a bit and it's shaved down to have better figure
In fairness, a lot of the sprites got a huge glow-up in Scarlet and Violet, Blastoise being one of the more substantial.
Always liked Ludicolo 3D. The idle gets me.
A problem I’m noticing with this series is it’s only really looking at the worst of the 3D without holding the same standard to 2D. Whilst I agree with much of what he’s saying, he’s only looking at a Pokémon’s idle animation but showcasing the sprite work when a Pokémon enters battle alongside its static pose after. Like, this would’ve been where we address the misuse of Hydro Pump until very recently, which is a much better conversation point then “they look boring when they just stand there”. Instead, we’ve decided to discuss a universal topic that kind of gets established will be the same answer going forward in only episode 3 out of whatever triple digit number is appropriate nowadays. And if we already know the conversation is only going to go one direction, why have it at all?
It's also not touching on the two other models that so many of these pokemon have. The Stadium and gen 9 models are pretty important too imo.
Maybe if this was a video? It's a short so maybe there wasn't enough time?
Oh hey there's what I was talking about!
I feel like, if Blastoise splayed out his fingers, he'd immediately look better. The 3D stance feels like he doesn't know what to do with his hands, and having him extend them would give so much more purpose even if it's superficial.
As usual, the main flaw is that they look like they're waiting to cross the street instead of having a battle stance
Hot Take: i feel like the hate for the 3D models is a bit forced. Like, yeah, the 2d sprites have lively animations when sent out, but that's because for most of the battle, they don't move much. In 3D, they have attack animations anyway, so having idle models isn't that big a deal. The animations are only good with the start one. The ones that constantly move are INCREDIBLY hit or miss
I just don't like how mostly across the board, the Pokemon in battle look like they're just standing there in the middle of a battle. Just because say Blastoise has attack animations doesn't mean his idle stance has to look so plain. The 2D sprites simulated some type of dynamic feeling while most 3D Pokemon's idles in battle could be the same as the ones from Amie and I couldn't tell the difference.
It's really not. This is amateurish garbage through and through and is ridiculous considering how much money the Pokemon company earns
@@castform7 thr 2d sprites kinda have to be like that because they're flat images, this is why every pokemon has a dynamic pose because it wpuld get boring I'd they just stood there. 3d models are solid so while they can pose they're not always going to be. If you played a fighting game you'd see this
@@DJPrimeAmvs If I played a fighting game, I would see the characters ready to fight eachother or at least have some type of interesting idle pose. Almost no character is just standing there. I know this is a tired point but a lot of the Stadium style games had exactly what I want from idle poses in the series.
I think the only pokemon that looks better in 3D is magikarp. All the flopping around it does really conveys its idea of a “useless, weak fish that can’t do anything in battle.”
Not even mentioning how every 3d Blastoise sprite shoots water out of its forehead.
If I'm not mistaken, it uses its cannons in Scarlet and Violet.
Ok but the updates Blastoise model is AMAZING, the shape language and definition is beautiful and the small details in the texturing like scratches on its shell make the design for me. I love the way it looks in 3D, especially the move animations
So glad when Blastoise was brought in Scarlet and Violet, it fixed every issue that its 3D model had and added some extra cool details such as the canons working with Hydro Pump and its swimming animation reminds me of that part in New Snap where it uses water jets from the holes where its legs come out.
I agree on Wartortle when it comes to its DPP sprite.
The sideways pose gives it a lot of personality and shows off it's defining features (It's wind ears and fluffy cloud tail) perfectly in a way that the 3d sprite just doesn't
The new model they created for Scarlet and Violer is pretty sick tho
So I just got membership to get ahead because this is fascinating. The question of whether pokemon looks better 2D or 3D was a big one when it first happened and to this day there are still arguments about how Pokemon should of stayed in 2D.
With that in mind going through each of the pokemon one by one is fascinating, and while won't tell the full picture will give a interesting indicator. So far it looks like most pokemon have come up worse, with a few exceptions. I have being trying to find similarities to the pokemon who did well in the transition and right now? I have nothing, it seems weirdly random? At first I thought maybe it could be something to do with size, the larger pokemon seeming to do better (Charzard and Pigieot both come to mind) however venusaur and Blastoise seem to counter that.
I think that it should have stayed in 2d for quality reasons, but Nintendo would never have allowed that, and neither would the community tbh. They had to switch for the thing literally called the 3DS, which inevitably resulted in more complaints from the same people who would have complained had it stayed in 2d
Wanted to wait until i saw a recent vid from this series from you, but have you considered looking at the HAL Laboratory 3D models from Stadium? HAL does a good job of breathing life into each Pokémon and id love to hear your thoughts on it.
I think its easy to miss whats good about the 3D sprites from a single view-the dynamic camera and the movement varieties. A 3D pokemon isnt only its standby pose, its a larger variety than its combat entry
I'm pretty sure that at least the Blastoise model if not all of these aren't the most recent ones. Gen 9 updated quite a lot of them and Blastoise no longer keeps his arms up like that.
Gen 1 Blastoise doing a shoulder charge is just so menacing
They actually improve upon the models for all of the Kanto starters in Scarlet and Violet. Charizard and Venasaur get way better faces, while Blastoise got a better body shape. It’s really nice
They fixed him in scarlet and violet actually! He now looks genuinely imposing and scary
Squirtle is the perfect Pokemon so it's hard to do it wrong
I mean..its an idle animation....its waiting on a command. Thats kind of the point of the models looking "souless"
To be fair, Blastoise is very rarely shown to be able to do much with its arms
Zubat looks amazing in 3D, the frantic flapping of its wings is just great.
I love Wartortle’s psychotic gaze when they are on your team in Pokémon Blue. Makes me want to name my next one Aries - The Tortle of War.
I like how ROUND Pokemon get in 3D. Like I just want to pet Gulpin all the time.
I really appreciate your videos and I thoroughly enjoy your channel. Your media literacy is inspirational, as a fledgling 3D artist, I pick up on a lot of things from watching you and you help me figure out how to put the things that seeing a piece of media makes me feel into words. Keep it up, love your work. :)
A+ for having any animation at all, more than i can say about most 3d models
Love these shorts and the love they give to old sprites. Was wondering if you'd consider looking at some of the 3d glow ups that scarlet and violet gave some mons. The environments may be sub par but the pokemon models, when they load lol, are in my opinion the best 3d pokemon have looked. Adding texture and reshaping some pokemon's features really helped them look better. The final evo Kanto starters had a major glow up, I love what they did to the shape of venusaur's and charizard's faces
If anything is going to look natural in a static pose, it’ll be a turtle
The happy scientist guy getting only four years in jail for what he did is a travesty. He should be locked up for life
I think the weirdest part is that the 3D models all look really flat, when I was under the impression that Blastoise had a huge, round body thanks to its shell.
Blastoise be looking like a Minecraft zombie
I think what might actually help is a crevice where the limbs meet the shell. Atm it looks like the arms are completely stuck within the holes without any range of motion from the shoulders, rather than the holes being openings for the limbs.
Try and imagine 3D blastoise stretching its arms into a T-Pose
"Look how they massacred my boy"
Typlosion. . .
Poor blastoise haha. He started a t cycle and just never stopped
Something i think could be good to compare it to is the Pokken model of Blastoise, which had its arms lengthened to allow its arms to actually bend, and it makes it look so much better
I have a pretty soft spot for Squirtle. Mostly because the first ever Pokémon game I ever played was Pokémon Fire Red and my dad suggested I used Squirtle because it was one of his favorites.
I miss pokemon stadium 1 & 2 animations, it breathed so much life in the pokemon.
One Pokémon who looks amazing in 3D to me is Cradily. I adore that fossil and have for years, and they look amazing in 3D to me. Their idle animations and battle pose could be a bit more dynamic, but otherwise they look great to me
Wooper looks amazing in 3d
Using torchic in oras... When you use scratch it runs in a little circle and it melts my heart
Imagine of Blastoise took a three point stance with one hand on the ground to aim the water cannons as a default pose
Synchro mode Blastoise animations in scarlet and violet dlc are the bomb though especially swimming
They had to release Turtonator to make up for the Blastoise slaughter
You should have mentioned how pokken had to awkwardly stretch blastoises limbs out to actually have him walk and punch
You know, while most of the 3D models lose so much of their personality compared to the 2D sprites, the Metagross line is actually improved imo. You get a better sense of it's alien anatomy and it feels a more sleek and less blob-like than the 2D sprites.
The absolute refusal to have any of their 3D models emote in any way certainly drops them down by a lot.
U love Blastoise in 3D because he looks like he wants a hug and I want to give it to him 😄
the answer is wooper. he looks even derpier in 3D.
Surf Background Music.
Blastoise in 3D suffers in a similar way to Venusaur, its most distinctive feature is on its back-the giant water canons, and that’s very difficult to capture in 3D.
2D sprites let the animators and artists “cheat” the pose, by contorting Blastoise’s body in unnatural ways to frame those canons front and center. Much harder to do with a 3D model and a panning camera where it becomes clear that they’re doing that.
Lol I thought he said "did any pokemon look good at 30" 😂
I think Blastoise should revert to being a quadruped stance.
Sometimes it gets on all 4s to attack, but something about Blastoise being a big bulky tank of a tortoise is exactly how his 3D model should look.
But then there’s 2 quadrupeds in the Kanto trio and that might not make sense-cause the final Stage Starters/ *FIRST PARTNERS* embody pets, monsters, AND transportation.
Frogasaur-I mean “Venusaur”-is to travel by land, and is a frog dinosaur.
Chorizo-zard is to travel by flight, and its base forms are simple salamanders/lizards, common pets.
Blastoise is a tortoise, and Squirtle is a turtle-almost every kid’s first pet-most times by accident rather than an actual choice. But Blastoise is to travel by water-surfing, diving, or even simply swimming.
I love Blastoise, but I think it could use a slight design tweak, one that takes a page from actual turtles shells. Specifically, give it one opening in its shell for the head and arms and one for the tail and legs, as opposed to the current one hole for each of them. It worked pretty well for Gamera, and would largely fix that stiffness problem.
Tbf the stiffness makes sense. How dexterous is your average turtle? This isn't Dragon Ball!
"Look how they massacred my boy" belongs to Typhlosion honestly. My god that poor pokemon was actually robbed in 3d.
Blastoise should absolutely be quadrupedal and no one can tell me otherwise
Pokken made Blastoise's arms longer, I think it looks a lot better
I do think Wartortle’s arms are just a little odd in the Gen 3 sprite but maybe that’s just me
Ah yes, my first started allllll the way back in Pokemon Blue.
i find it kinda funny that so far, its been the stage three evolutions that have looked good in 3D, while here its the opposite
At the very least, mr.Mime and Muk look a lot better in 3D
I only want a Squirtle with glasses in 3D. Please Game Freak
all pokemon seem to struggle handling how heavy it is to be 3d
bro needs to look at the Gen 9 versions
Honestly it all boils down to just them not having enough time to improve the animation
Again I think gamefreak did a lot to help blastoise in scarlet and voilet, especially since he now actually shoots out of his cannons.
Justice for typhlosion
Generally, the model-work of the 3D games is really good. The animations have been sub-par. Every Pokémon should have more personality in their battle poses than they get.
Some personal insight from a AAA dev:
A lot of studios run into this where animators get told to just do something basic and simple because they're given a very small amount of time, because similarly to audio, animation is an afterthought. If the animators want to create cool poses and idle loops that is full of personality it's usually 10x more expensive than a simple breathe loop like here. Production and design don't like that cost and will often say "ehhhh doesn't need that much animation. Animation isn't that important anyway and the 3D aspect replaces the stylization the sprites needed." And then NEVER realize how much they lost with that way of thinking. Especially with a monster-collection game where their behavior can add SO MUCH to their identity.
I could be wrong but I'd also bet that the 3D rigs aren't dynamic enough to replicate some of the poses seen in the 2D sprites, and so if an animator attempted to push things they'd realize they need to talk to the rigger for probably every single Pokemon to achieve the poses and motions that they need. And if the rigger is swamped, they're far less likely to start that difficult conversation with them. "Hey uhh I know you're busy and probably working overtime, but can you make a bunch of edits to this rig cause it's kinda bad...?" Not to mention the battles the animator would then have to fight with production because now they're affecting another departments schedule.
Then the added poses will probably require more audio work too because it's not just a breathe loop. It's all a cascading effect and your desire to make your work amazing can often directly create more work for other teams.
I'm definitely not justifying it, it's just a sucky situation that some studios really struggle with while others have mastered. Great example is FromSoftware who feel like they have an amazing pipeline where every department can shine (and hopefully without anyone working overtime).
Sprite blastoise is such a badass
I wish Pokémon 3d models had far more cartoony posing and art style.
Blastoise at least got a bit of a glow up in scarlet violet.
Something i'd like to have acknowledged in these videos, is how Scarlet and Violet gave the fully evolved kanto starters, persian, mewtwo, suicune new models with tweaks to their animations (and a few more, but those are the most notable to me)
To me, those look better than their sprites, amd while most of them keep their simple animations, blastoise out of all of them got some respect, finally using it's cannons on some moves and using it's hidden shell jets when swimming.
I honestly like the pokemon yellow sprite for blastoise the best
We can all agree for the most part that scarlet and violet fixed a lot of bad 3D models (fixing blastois’s arms, Typhlodion’s neck flames, every flying pokemon)
THEY LOOK FINE
Thank god scarlet and violet fixed so many of the animations
I think the issue isn’t so much that they’re in 3D as much as they’re under-animated. They’re stuck in permanent idle stances instead of given little characterizing animations. The 3D models genuinely look fine to me, it’s just the fact that they desperately need to move more.
Forgive my bias but I think Arcanine's 3D models are really good. They give off a sense of "fluffy god boy" and in Gen 9 the texture updates on it make the model look fierce and threatening, while also maintaining the fluffy good boy.
Gen 5 Wartortle is sooooo good
I just wish they would switch up these animations more, like most pokemon game looked indentical animation wise since x and y over 10 years ago
Fun series! Loving it so far.
Recommendation to do one on Braviary. Big leap from the Kanto starters I know, and a lot fewer sprites to consider of course, but it's so drastic. It would be my favorite pokemon but going from this intimidating, head-down, brawling eagle to "I'm a tall birb and I go flap flap" really ruins it. They basically tripled the size of its body and neck and made it look so unthreatening imo.