I run into this line of thinking a lot. “Good” and “nice” are a relative sliding scale and the “higher power” isn’t concerned with justice, maybe only for some people who were “really bad”. The truth is that we have all gone against our own conscience and have done (and thought of doing and saying) destructive and harmful things to others and to ourselves that we knew were wrong but we did them anyway. We need a Savior and we were built for relationship with our Creator. He has provided the Way, let us choose it by turning away from those things we know are wrong and trust in Jesus for our salvation, not in our “good deeds”. Once we are in Christ, He changes our desires and we want to do good things for others as we experience how good God has been to us.
As a deist I personally believe we we’re wired by our divine creator to reason adjacent to the livid experiences of people who have prompted Net-Negatives, Positives, and Neutrals in society. Men are wired to provide, hunt, be warriors, to father, and protect their resources which includes their loved ones adjacent to who brought value to their livid experience as a man. Woman are wired to caregive, lead with empathy, bring life into the world, and protect their most vulnerable creations which are children. “Good” to me is relative to net-positives adjacent to what fulfills the biological incentives given to us by our divine creator. I perceive Christianity (or any religion really) as an extension to the livid experience of being man and fulfilling your biological purpose adjacent to the time and place of which it was written. Hence why things like homosexuality was seen as normal in the resource rich environments of south america pre colonization while the harsh Mediterranean perpetuated strict gender roles onto Man and Woman in order to further society in a wretched environment. I believe our divine creator has provided the way as well but it’s a human beings obligation to figure it out within the world created for us. The answers are there, but in my opinion it requires a level of self-awareness and discernment that can only be achieved by following your instincts to which most religions interpret as an inclination to sin so theres that.
Hey Rey, thanks for that post. I don't see how becoming a born again Christian necessarily changes anything. As, by Christianity's own standards, you still sin and evil still exists. And you only get into heaven because you told God what he wants to hear. That said...I think there are a lot of positive lessons to be found under the banner of Christianity. ie, bearing your own cross, self-sacrifice, etc.
@@mattr.1887 Thanks for your reply, Matt. I can see your point of view. After trusting in Christ, there are times where we may go against the Holy Spirit and choose to sin. However, when we do sin, we feel conviction, confess what we have done to Christ who is our Advocate with God the Father, and we turn away from that sin (see 1 John 2). Before being freed by Christ, continuing in sin often isn't really a big deal and the more I do it the more I become a slave to it (see Romans 6). As far as evil existing, God has an ultimate plan to do away with evil forever as He has said from Genesis to Revelation. However, if He got rid of all evil right now, He would need to destroy all of us this instant. Instead, in His mercy He has held off the final judgement of evil a little while longer, as He doesn't wish that any should perish but that all would come to repentance (see 2 Peter 3). Blessings to you Matt in your journey!
@@mattr.1887 Some of the Scripture I referenced. 1 John 2 1My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. 2He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins-and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. 3And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did. 2 Peter 3 3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.” 5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. 7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. 8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.[a] 11 Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, 12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness. 14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. 15 And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him- Romans 6 5Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus. 12Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace. 15Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living. 19Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
I was guilty of this style of believing. When suffering came into my life it really wrecked me and I didn’t understand why God was allowing it to happen. Now I know that God ordains suffering for many, possibly ALL of His people to mature us into Christlikeness and rid us of our proud arrogance and self sufficiency. The church needs to preach and teach on godly suffering and stop leaving it out because when the suffering comes; and it will; people are almost ship wrecked by it if they’re understanding is not Biblical.
@@Cuffsmaster how could you reply like that??? Have you never had evil acted against you that you did nothing to deserve??? It happens and to a severe extent to many people, the Bible is full of it!
@@hangryturtle9006 "how could you reply like that = you never had evild acted against you. you did nothing to deserve" No one deserves cancer or being hit by a car or fall and break an arm and on and on and on. That is not evil . There is no devil causing you to trip and fall. No if you choose to be fooled - OK - so be it. "the bible is full of it " Tales from the past that can't be proven true are meaningless as truth. It is ok for you to lower your common sense down to accept fairytales as truth but does not believe anyone else has to do so . Now to the video and the use of the words "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism " Note that the Christians were the ones naming it. That is not Deism. It is just like a good moral Christian to frame a faith in their own image and so how it is not true based on their view. As if they had the true big picture. It is like using the term Christians use of "back slider" to refer to those that cast the faith aside for better answers. Now I can help that something bad happened and I am sure in your mind a believe in an unproven supernatural thingee helped you. It seems every modern and older faith claims the same thing. Life for the most part, it what it is. God does not all or disallow crap to happen to you. This woman is just selling a product. Just like a preacher on TV. I would bet her believe is molded around her income. Maybe not but it is highly likely .
I disagree, I’ve felt more in tune with my understanding of being Male when going through suffering because as a Male wired by our divine creator that suffering was incumbant of not living up to my biological purpose adjacent to providing a net positive for my own livid experience as a person. I respect your worldview however you shouldn’t generalize like that
Just the very reason there are thousands of videos, thousands of books and thousands of debates whether what religion is correct should prove that there is no certain faith. Otherwise, we could clearly “prove” which faith is correct. But that is what it is, “faith” and the “hope” that you are right when you die. If I am anything I would be more in line with our founding fathers and Thomas Paine and be a deist because I don’t see god being interested in human affairs. Millions die every year from accidents, catastrophic events, cancer, murder, and wars. To me, if he does exist, he is the watch maker and sits back and watches it tick.
What Jen says about deism is so ridiculous it's hilarious. It is the opinion of a person influenced by theological bias and who does not understand anything about deism. Young people do not distance themselves from God, but from religion. They have access to much more information than their ancestors, so they are able to identify the problems of religion, but they still believe in God.
Nothing wrong with that Vincent. I find all the divinity I need in nature. As far as supernatural revelation, I am happy to accept any and all of it the moment I see proof.
Calling others 1.) Moral 2.) Therapeudic 3.) Deists is only outing yourself as a 1.) Creedal 2.) Escapist 3.) Fideist. You end up telling the world that, as opposed to the youth, you 1.) Believe in an amoral game of pick-the-right-beliefs to 2.) abandon the unressurected body and slated-to-be-destroyed world, the creation of 3.) a god who set up a world with a wound-up clock-spring of infinite misery that is triggered into existence by one person's failure to be immaculate, whose consequences are thrust upon us, including all of the hurricanes, earthquakes, wildfires, cancers, plagues, and parasites God sends to harm us, yet because you say so, this is good.
If there is no macro-meaning, there is no micro-meaning. Macro necessitates micro. That desire to "live for something bigger than yourself" is the image of God within, calling you to worship your Creator.
If you study human beings, you will find that religion is a natural part of their society. Science is a religion too, but the only true religion is getting punched in face hurts.
I think it attacks the very thing that no one says out loud. We are told in our mega churches "The blessing follows your obedience" which sounds amazing because we naturally want to work hard...but defeats the Gospel. If jesus is annihilated on a cross for my salvation, then by depending upon my good works I am essentially saying "The cross wasn't good enough I think I should bring something to the table that God can't"
I run into this line of thinking a lot. “Good” and “nice” are a relative sliding scale and the “higher power” isn’t concerned with justice, maybe only for some people who were “really bad”. The truth is that we have all gone against our own conscience and have done (and thought of doing and saying) destructive and harmful things to others and to ourselves that we knew were wrong but we did them anyway. We need a Savior and we were built for relationship with our Creator. He has provided the Way, let us choose it by turning away from those things we know are wrong and trust in Jesus for our salvation, not in our “good deeds”. Once we are in Christ, He changes our desires and we want to do good things for others as we experience how good God has been to us.
As a deist I personally believe we we’re wired by our divine creator to reason adjacent to the livid experiences of people who have prompted Net-Negatives, Positives, and Neutrals in society.
Men are wired to provide, hunt, be warriors, to father, and protect their resources which includes their loved ones adjacent to who brought value to their livid experience as a man.
Woman are wired to caregive, lead with empathy, bring life into the world, and protect their most vulnerable creations which are children.
“Good” to me is relative to net-positives adjacent to what fulfills the biological incentives given to us by our divine creator.
I perceive Christianity (or any religion really) as an extension to the livid experience of being man and fulfilling your biological purpose adjacent to the time and place of which it was written.
Hence why things like homosexuality was seen as normal in the resource rich environments of south america pre colonization while the harsh Mediterranean perpetuated strict gender roles onto Man and Woman in order to further society in a wretched environment.
I believe our divine creator has provided the way as well but it’s a human beings obligation to figure it out within the world created for us.
The answers are there, but in my opinion it requires a level of self-awareness and discernment that can only be achieved by following your instincts to which most religions interpret as an inclination to sin so theres that.
Hey Rey, thanks for that post.
I don't see how becoming a born again Christian necessarily changes anything. As, by Christianity's own standards, you still sin and evil still exists. And you only get into heaven because you told God what he wants to hear.
That said...I think there are a lot of positive lessons to be found under the banner of Christianity. ie, bearing your own cross, self-sacrifice, etc.
@@mattr.1887 Thanks for your reply, Matt. I can see your point of view. After trusting in Christ, there are times where we may go against the Holy Spirit and choose to sin. However, when we do sin, we feel conviction, confess what we have done to Christ who is our Advocate with God the Father, and we turn away from that sin (see 1 John 2). Before being freed by Christ, continuing in sin often isn't really a big deal and the more I do it the more I become a slave to it (see Romans 6). As far as evil existing, God has an ultimate plan to do away with evil forever as He has said from Genesis to Revelation. However, if He got rid of all evil right now, He would need to destroy all of us this instant. Instead, in His mercy He has held off the final judgement of evil a little while longer, as He doesn't wish that any should perish but that all would come to repentance (see 2 Peter 3). Blessings to you Matt in your journey!
@@mattr.1887 Some of the Scripture I referenced. 1 John 2
1My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. 2He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins-and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
3And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.
2 Peter 3
3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”
5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. 7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.[a]
11 Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, 12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.
14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight.
15 And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him-
Romans 6
5Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
12Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. 13Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.
15Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.
19Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.
20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
I was guilty of this style of believing. When suffering came into my life it really wrecked me and I didn’t understand why God was allowing it to happen. Now I know that God ordains suffering for many, possibly ALL of His people to mature us into Christlikeness and rid us of our proud arrogance and self sufficiency.
The church needs to preach and teach on godly suffering and stop leaving it out because when the suffering comes; and it will; people are almost ship wrecked by it if they’re understanding is not Biblical.
God didn't wreak you. You wreaked yourself
@@Cuffsmaster how could you reply like that??? Have you never had evil acted against you that you did nothing to deserve??? It happens and to a severe extent to many people, the Bible is full of it!
@@hangryturtle9006 "how could you reply like that = you never had evild acted against you. you did nothing to deserve"
No one deserves cancer or being hit by a car or fall and break an arm and on and on and on.
That is not evil . There is no devil causing you to trip and fall.
No if you choose to be fooled - OK - so be it.
"the bible is full of it " Tales from the past that can't be proven true are meaningless as truth. It is ok for you to lower your common sense down to accept fairytales as truth but does not believe anyone else has to do so .
Now to the video and the use of the words "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism " Note that the Christians were the ones naming it. That is not Deism. It is just like a good moral Christian to frame a faith in their own image and so how it is not true based on their view. As if they had the true big picture.
It is like using the term Christians use of "back slider" to refer to those that cast the faith aside for better answers.
Now I can help that something bad happened and I am sure in your mind a believe in an unproven supernatural thingee helped you. It seems every modern and older faith claims the same thing. Life for the most part, it what it is.
God does not all or disallow crap to happen to you.
This woman is just selling a product. Just like a preacher on TV. I would bet her believe is molded around her income. Maybe not but it is highly likely .
Hey hangry, I respect where you come from. But honestly, I started understanding and respecting suffering when I walked away from Christianity.
I disagree, I’ve felt more in tune with my understanding of being Male when going through suffering because as a Male wired by our divine creator that suffering was incumbant of not living up to my biological purpose adjacent to providing a net positive for my own livid experience as a person.
I respect your worldview however you shouldn’t generalize like that
Just the very reason there are thousands of videos, thousands of books and thousands of debates whether what religion is correct should prove that there is no certain faith. Otherwise, we could clearly “prove” which faith is correct. But that is what it is, “faith” and the “hope” that you are right when you die. If I am anything I would be more in line with our founding fathers and Thomas Paine and be a deist because I don’t see god being interested in human affairs. Millions die every year from accidents, catastrophic events, cancer, murder, and wars. To me, if he does exist, he is the watch maker and sits back and watches it tick.
Thank you for explaining this clearly. May we ever depend upon our Lord without whom there can be no salvation.
What Jen says about deism is so ridiculous it's hilarious. It is the opinion of a person influenced by theological bias and who does not understand anything about deism.
Young people do not distance themselves from God, but from religion. They have access to much more information than their ancestors, so they are able to identify the problems of religion, but they still believe in God.
Agreed. Churches should stop clinging to unproven claims like biblical inerrancy and instead focus more on values and culture.
So sad that so many people live their entire lives, believing that their reason for being, is to worship their creator.
Nothing wrong with that Vincent. I find all the divinity I need in nature. As far as supernatural revelation, I am happy to accept any and all of it the moment I see proof.
@@vincentasks The God of the bible, is a very insecure deity that demands worship.
The demons believe in God 🤷🏼♂️
Calling others 1.) Moral 2.) Therapeudic 3.) Deists is only outing yourself as a 1.) Creedal 2.) Escapist 3.) Fideist.
You end up telling the world that, as opposed to the youth, you
1.) Believe in an amoral game of pick-the-right-beliefs to
2.) abandon the unressurected body and slated-to-be-destroyed world, the creation of
3.) a god who set up a world with a wound-up clock-spring of infinite misery that is triggered into existence by one person's failure to be immaculate, whose consequences are thrust upon us, including all of the hurricanes, earthquakes, wildfires, cancers, plagues, and parasites God sends to harm us, yet because you say so, this is good.
Hold on, I need to get Christopher Hitchens on the line.
There is no purpose to life, only purpose IN LIFE. Let reason and science be your guide.
If there is no macro-meaning, there is no micro-meaning. Macro necessitates micro. That desire to "live for something bigger than yourself" is the image of God within, calling you to worship your Creator.
Reason and science both point to a creator. Much apologetic work has been done to show this is the God of the Bible
If you study human beings, you will find that religion is a natural part of their society.
Science is a religion too, but the only true religion is getting punched in face hurts.
Science be your guide? Science used to say smoking cigarettes was healthy. And man putting on a dress wasn't a women. Your statement is unreasonable.
I’m a practicing Catholic, and I’m wondering why you’re concerned about this in women’s ministries specifically?
It's interesting how the term "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism" is argued as being a BAD thing.
Ignore and go your own way.
I think it attacks the very thing that no one says out loud. We are told in our mega churches "The blessing follows your obedience" which sounds amazing because we naturally want to work hard...but defeats the Gospel. If jesus is annihilated on a cross for my salvation, then by depending upon my good works I am essentially saying "The cross wasn't good enough I think I should bring something to the table that God can't"
It is being argued as a false thing
Well said, thank you!
God is in the heavens, but by scripture, I only know of the kingdom of God, and know of no one, GOING to heaven.
Even worse today in 2023
What in the Christian word salad is she even trying to say.
She said it all. ✔️