Any good player will teach you how to counter their own character. Steel sharpens steel. I really hope we get some buffs in the next sneak patch, this one feels like a band-aid and it won't stop people saying "X is op".
That is absolutely correct! This is because a good player wants to know that they won from making good reads/decisions rather than because of a lack of character knowledge.
@@mrAPchem nah retard johhnys OP i appreciate that his skilles gameplay has made me much better since hes meta asf but fuck johnny mains and meta players
How dare you pressure character apply pressure with plus frames. That's not allowed here... this sucks. The down 1 been 7 frames I get but the 1 1 change sucks a lot. It's MK11 all over again when they removed his plus frames
Yes, this change is dumb - a pressure character with no actual pressure makes no sense. What's worse is that these changes are being cheered by lots of people, including viewers of Rip's Arena. It made me sad and upset.
When 1,1 was +3 the opponent could also armor out, and if you were playing a character like Tanya/Goro or Lao/Goro you could convert your armored reversal into a full combo punish. Then Cage was eating 300+ damage for trying to frame trap you. I was on the subreddit seeing people complain about Cage early on, they didn't even understand frame data, so they had no idea why they couldn't poke after 1,1. NRS catering to these people is dumb, I put it on them, they're the ones who made the decision to listen to the whiners. If I play cage now I'm just using Khameleon because the Jade glave is +3, so I still get that knee frame trap with her at least. But Khameleon probably gonna get nerfed next.
Thank you for saying this!!!!!!! Cage's +3 was never fully guaranteed to give him a damn thing. Never. His follow up could either be ducked, blocked or armored as you noted. If his plus frames were so oppressive, why did we not see more tourney results with him???? Why was virtually every Cage player switching to other characters when times got tough? This nerf was done purely to appease whiners, and not only was it a dumb move, but it won't even work. The moment all those people realize that Cage is still good, they'll be crying for even more nerfs.
Yeah but there are only 2 or 3 characters that can do that, both of which are not popular picks, and you have to pick a specific camel. AND you have to spend a bar for that. They didn’t nerf Johnny enough he is such an annoying fucking character and just making every character annoying isn’t gonna balance it, it just makes the game annoying.
@@colincheshire6366 Every character has an armor move to interrupt Cage's plus frames with. Also, every character can duck and interrupt any high-attack follow-up that Cage could want to do. Cage can counter this with his mid, but once he uses that mid on block, his turn is over and the opponent has a chance to get away from him. But I'm glad that you outright stated how you feel about why Cage should get nerfed. Let me respond with this: No character should EVER get nerfed simply because they are annoying - if being annoying was a legitimate reason to get nerfed, then literally every character in the game ought to be nerfed, even the lowest-tier ones. Characters should only be nerfed if what they are doing in a game is either legitimately broken or doesn't have consistent counterplay. Johnny Cage didn't fit either of those criteria, and for that matter, neither does any top-tier character in the game, including Raiden, Sindel, Kenshi, Liu Kang or Ashrah.
@@colincheshire6366 How is he annoying? I'd rather fight 1,000 Johnny's than 1 Nitara/Khameleon jumping and flying all over the place to where you can barely land a punch. Or a Sindel/Lao where she constantly puts you in Hard to Blockable scenarios. OR a Kenshi/Rax or Kenshi/Sub where he can pull out sento safely on block and get you in an infinite chip sequence on block or take 40%-50% lifebar on hit into safe sento refresh on knockdown. By your comment I realize we are playing 2 different games. You likely haven't made it past Demi God and aren't capable of fuzzy guarding. At high level Johnny was never all that, and he definitely ain't now. Every pro comp Johnny has been forced to switch off him at some point, he's never won a major. He didn't need to be nerfed, and he certainly doesn't need to be nerfed again.
Once you get to Elder God people OS his 212 and 214 string into upblock punish nearly 100% of the time. At lower levels his 212 and 214 never gets punished and he usually randoms people out with it because they don't know to "block low, react to the high"
The Cage mains are crying like this is a big deal. Cry me a fcking river . When my Sub got nerfed after the beta i didnt say shit and put work on my character.
That's the point - these nerfs do not change anything about the character, except make him more generic like everyone else. Now, Cage players will still be just as plus as they were before, but now it will come from single normals on block. The character is fundamentally unchanged, but his players are being punished for using him the way that he was created to be played. And what was supposed to be the reason for these nerfs? Tournaments? No; Cage players were well-represented, but otherwise devoid of tournament victories. Actual brokeness? No; the 11 string already had counter-play and did not lead to Cage dominating people that knew how to fight him. The only people that kept getting endlessly pressured were those that never labbed the character - which turns out to be a large chunk of the player-base. No, the only reason these nerfs happened was because mfs were out here whining and begging for nerfs, instead of doing what Sub-Zero mains like myself were doing - grinding the game, searching for solutions and tech and learning matchups. This whining for nerfs will not stop at Cage/Raiden/Kenshi - as a matter of fact, it will never stop because mfs are always looking for every excuse for losing matches except for their own damn gameplay.
Yeah, even though I do believe that Raiden is nothing less than a Top 3 character in the game, picking Raiden is NOT an automatic victory for anyone. He has to work in neutral to win. Storm Cell is degenerate though - that move needs to be adjusted. Frankly, I'd make it act like his Shocker on block and only hit the opponent once or twice while blocking. This gets rid of one of his most annoying aspects while not weakening his gameplan or strength as a character whatsoever.
Right, now that I've caught up on the patch notes and some discussion in PND Ketchup & Mustard's server, I still think that this patch overall is a bit of a shame. Many of the nerfs are justifiable, but I see no buffs here to balance out the obvious "feels bad" aspect that nerfs carry. The Stryker nerf to low riot grenades keeps Kano knives relevant. Both tend to perform the same functions, but Kano's knives are highs rather than mids so it can justify keeping the old cooldown that Stryker's low grenade toss loses. Johnny's standing double 1 string is still plus on block and gap-less, which is still very good when paired with a backdash into his 9 frame Forward+3. He also has a number of other moves that remain +3 on block. Raiden's "storm cell" was asking for this nerf. I do believe Mustard was specifically asking for this change previously, because of how difficult it is to flawless block each hit while also contending with ambushes that kept Raiden's turn flowing. It is not a move that is inherently broken on its own, but ambush kameos enable it to be broken. While it still furthers Raiden's turn, the chip damage has been toned down to be a bit less oppressive. The Kameo Lao low hat nerf is unusual. You can still toss them out mindlessly, but holding it in place is what got nerfed because it allowed for some easy set-ups. I still don't agree with this one, but I can understand it. Peacemaker's listed changes seem a bit overboard. The first fix to "Force Multiplier" because it was leading to unintended behavior is justifiable. The increased combo damage scaling immediately after? Not so much.... Eagley cooldown change is mostly consistent but still much; scale that down to 1.5 or 2 seconds, perhaps? Kenshi's ancestor attacks getting their chip damage reduced is a relief, but still not enough for me to stop fearing the old Sento Sandwich and the terrifying ten seconds of pressure that comes with.
Here's the thing - some of the nerfs are understandable, like Peacemaker damage scaling and Storm Cell/Sento chip reduction. Others, like the Cage and Stryker nerfs seem punitive and lazy. Stryker's grenades could have been made into highs so that players could counter them. Johnny's 11 string didn't need to be touched - people already disrespected that string online often anyway because being +3 online either means being +6 or neutral depending on the connection. Plus, Cage had (and still has) follow-ups from his plus frames that could all be either blocked or countered on good reads. Now Stryker has been given the Cyrax treatment - he will now be an old toy that will be tossed away because he isn't a compelling pick anymore. Killing the best Kameos is not the path forward, especially in an assist game; the better path is to buff the other Kameos so that they become as compelling as Stryker was. And if that cannot happen, at the very least buff Stryker's other moves so that he can still be used but instead for multiple moves, rather than just one.
@@mrAPchem I don't necessarily think Stryker has lost as much relevance as Cyrax had, but I do agree that his other moves need improvement. Again, the change makes Kano's knife toss assist more relevant and keeps Kano from becoming obsolete, but now Stryker is at risk of obsolescence. Very few characters can benefit from his night stick assists, and I don't know what the handcuff assist is supposed to accomplish anymore. Johnny's double 1 string nerf is kind of pointless. It's not just lazy or punitive to me, it just seems questionable. *Why*, NRS, did this change need to be made? I don't see the motive or the objective it was meant to accomplish beyond proving Johnny was the golden boy after evading the nerf bat for months.
This shit made no sense. If online makes you think you’re not plus 1 then your opponent isn’t at advantage either. Johnny is still plus on other moves anyways so now people can’t go 11 they have to go 1 or use two of his other strings to be plus 3 which he still has
That's what I'm saying!!!! The boy can still be +3, +4, +5, +7 or even +10 depending on what he can get the opponent to block, so changing this has no effect on his ability to be plus. If anything, this will make players frame trap even harder now, which is the opposite of what the whiners wanted.
@@mrAPchem to me now people might micro duck him slightly more often but micro ducks is seriously an advanced technique because you have to be really paying attention and he still might throw out that 9 frame mid anyways.
@@Nonlifting_breezy They certainly can do that. But, the Cages will backdash into mid or B3 and blow them up. Now a can of worms has opened up for the Cage whiners because Cage always had other options besides a raw frame trap - now they will deal with those other things.
Any good player will teach you how to counter their own character. Steel sharpens steel. I really hope we get some buffs in the next sneak patch, this one feels like a band-aid and it won't stop people saying "X is op".
That is absolutely correct! This is because a good player wants to know that they won from making good reads/decisions rather than because of a lack of character knowledge.
Could not agree more, people bitch about me playing raiden, but he has so many flaws that nobody knows about
@@mrAPchem nah retard johhnys OP i appreciate that his skilles gameplay has made me much better since hes meta asf but fuck johnny mains and meta players
How dare you pressure character apply pressure with plus frames. That's not allowed here... this sucks. The down 1 been 7 frames I get but the 1 1 change sucks a lot. It's MK11 all over again when they removed his plus frames
Yes, this change is dumb - a pressure character with no actual pressure makes no sense.
What's worse is that these changes are being cheered by lots of people, including viewers of Rip's Arena. It made me sad and upset.
@@mrAPchemkys
25:54 Seconded, Frost needs a bit of help. Shujinko could use some love, but he's at least in an okay place compared to Frost.
Frost does need some love. She pairs well with Quan Chi though, so that's a plus. But otherwise, she's outclassed by everyone else in the game.
When 1,1 was +3 the opponent could also armor out, and if you were playing a character like Tanya/Goro or Lao/Goro you could convert your armored reversal into a full combo punish. Then Cage was eating 300+ damage for trying to frame trap you. I was on the subreddit seeing people complain about Cage early on, they didn't even understand frame data, so they had no idea why they couldn't poke after 1,1. NRS catering to these people is dumb, I put it on them, they're the ones who made the decision to listen to the whiners. If I play cage now I'm just using Khameleon because the Jade glave is +3, so I still get that knee frame trap with her at least. But Khameleon probably gonna get nerfed next.
Thank you for saying this!!!!!!!
Cage's +3 was never fully guaranteed to give him a damn thing. Never. His follow up could either be ducked, blocked or armored as you noted.
If his plus frames were so oppressive, why did we not see more tourney results with him???? Why was virtually every Cage player switching to other characters when times got tough?
This nerf was done purely to appease whiners, and not only was it a dumb move, but it won't even work. The moment all those people realize that Cage is still good, they'll be crying for even more nerfs.
Yeah but there are only 2 or 3 characters that can do that, both of which are not popular picks, and you have to pick a specific camel. AND you have to spend a bar for that. They didn’t nerf Johnny enough he is such an annoying fucking character and just making every character annoying isn’t gonna balance it, it just makes the game annoying.
@@colincheshire6366 Every character has an armor move to interrupt Cage's plus frames with. Also, every character can duck and interrupt any high-attack follow-up that Cage could want to do. Cage can counter this with his mid, but once he uses that mid on block, his turn is over and the opponent has a chance to get away from him.
But I'm glad that you outright stated how you feel about why Cage should get nerfed. Let me respond with this:
No character should EVER get nerfed simply because they are annoying - if being annoying was a legitimate reason to get nerfed, then literally every character in the game ought to be nerfed, even the lowest-tier ones.
Characters should only be nerfed if what they are doing in a game is either legitimately broken or doesn't have consistent counterplay. Johnny Cage didn't fit either of those criteria, and for that matter, neither does any top-tier character in the game, including Raiden, Sindel, Kenshi, Liu Kang or Ashrah.
@@colincheshire6366 How is he annoying? I'd rather fight 1,000 Johnny's than 1 Nitara/Khameleon jumping and flying all over the place to where you can barely land a punch. Or a Sindel/Lao where she constantly puts you in Hard to Blockable scenarios. OR a Kenshi/Rax or Kenshi/Sub where he can pull out sento safely on block and get you in an infinite chip sequence on block or take 40%-50% lifebar on hit into safe sento refresh on knockdown.
By your comment I realize we are playing 2 different games. You likely haven't made it past Demi God and aren't capable of fuzzy guarding. At high level Johnny was never all that, and he definitely ain't now. Every pro comp Johnny has been forced to switch off him at some point, he's never won a major. He didn't need to be nerfed, and he certainly doesn't need to be nerfed again.
Once you get to Elder God people OS his 212 and 214 string into upblock punish nearly 100% of the time. At lower levels his 212 and 214 never gets punished and he usually randoms people out with it because they don't know to "block low, react to the high"
The Cage mains are crying like this is a big deal. Cry me a fcking river . When my Sub got nerfed after the beta i didnt say shit and put work on my character.
That's the point - these nerfs do not change anything about the character, except make him more generic like everyone else. Now, Cage players will still be just as plus as they were before, but now it will come from single normals on block. The character is fundamentally unchanged, but his players are being punished for using him the way that he was created to be played.
And what was supposed to be the reason for these nerfs?
Tournaments? No; Cage players were well-represented, but otherwise devoid of tournament victories.
Actual brokeness? No; the 11 string already had counter-play and did not lead to Cage dominating people that knew how to fight him. The only people that kept getting endlessly pressured were those that never labbed the character - which turns out to be a large chunk of the player-base.
No, the only reason these nerfs happened was because mfs were out here whining and begging for nerfs, instead of doing what Sub-Zero mains like myself were doing - grinding the game, searching for solutions and tech and learning matchups.
This whining for nerfs will not stop at Cage/Raiden/Kenshi - as a matter of fact, it will never stop because mfs are always looking for every excuse for losing matches except for their own damn gameplay.
This is incredibly unfortunate following the Peacemaker and cross-play update(s) solidness.
Yeah, even though I do believe that Raiden is nothing less than a Top 3 character in the game, picking Raiden is NOT an automatic victory for anyone. He has to work in neutral to win.
Storm Cell is degenerate though - that move needs to be adjusted. Frankly, I'd make it act like his Shocker on block and only hit the opponent once or twice while blocking. This gets rid of one of his most annoying aspects while not weakening his gameplan or strength as a character whatsoever.
Right, now that I've caught up on the patch notes and some discussion in PND Ketchup & Mustard's server, I still think that this patch overall is a bit of a shame. Many of the nerfs are justifiable, but I see no buffs here to balance out the obvious "feels bad" aspect that nerfs carry.
The Stryker nerf to low riot grenades keeps Kano knives relevant. Both tend to perform the same functions, but Kano's knives are highs rather than mids so it can justify keeping the old cooldown that Stryker's low grenade toss loses.
Johnny's standing double 1 string is still plus on block and gap-less, which is still very good when paired with a backdash into his 9 frame Forward+3. He also has a number of other moves that remain +3 on block.
Raiden's "storm cell" was asking for this nerf. I do believe Mustard was specifically asking for this change previously, because of how difficult it is to flawless block each hit while also contending with ambushes that kept Raiden's turn flowing. It is not a move that is inherently broken on its own, but ambush kameos enable it to be broken. While it still furthers Raiden's turn, the chip damage has been toned down to be a bit less oppressive.
The Kameo Lao low hat nerf is unusual. You can still toss them out mindlessly, but holding it in place is what got nerfed because it allowed for some easy set-ups. I still don't agree with this one, but I can understand it.
Peacemaker's listed changes seem a bit overboard. The first fix to "Force Multiplier" because it was leading to unintended behavior is justifiable. The increased combo damage scaling immediately after? Not so much.... Eagley cooldown change is mostly consistent but still much; scale that down to 1.5 or 2 seconds, perhaps?
Kenshi's ancestor attacks getting their chip damage reduced is a relief, but still not enough for me to stop fearing the old Sento Sandwich and the terrifying ten seconds of pressure that comes with.
Here's the thing - some of the nerfs are understandable, like Peacemaker damage scaling and Storm Cell/Sento chip reduction. Others, like the Cage and Stryker nerfs seem punitive and lazy. Stryker's grenades could have been made into highs so that players could counter them. Johnny's 11 string didn't need to be touched - people already disrespected that string online often anyway because being +3 online either means being +6 or neutral depending on the connection. Plus, Cage had (and still has) follow-ups from his plus frames that could all be either blocked or countered on good reads.
Now Stryker has been given the Cyrax treatment - he will now be an old toy that will be tossed away because he isn't a compelling pick anymore. Killing the best Kameos is not the path forward, especially in an assist game; the better path is to buff the other Kameos so that they become as compelling as Stryker was. And if that cannot happen, at the very least buff Stryker's other moves so that he can still be used but instead for multiple moves, rather than just one.
@@mrAPchem I don't necessarily think Stryker has lost as much relevance as Cyrax had, but I do agree that his other moves need improvement. Again, the change makes Kano's knife toss assist more relevant and keeps Kano from becoming obsolete, but now Stryker is at risk of obsolescence. Very few characters can benefit from his night stick assists, and I don't know what the handcuff assist is supposed to accomplish anymore.
Johnny's double 1 string nerf is kind of pointless. It's not just lazy or punitive to me, it just seems questionable. *Why*, NRS, did this change need to be made? I don't see the motive or the objective it was meant to accomplish beyond proving Johnny was the golden boy after evading the nerf bat for months.
This shit made no sense. If online makes you think you’re not plus 1 then your opponent isn’t at advantage either. Johnny is still plus on other moves anyways so now people can’t go 11 they have to go 1 or use two of his other strings to be plus 3 which he still has
That's what I'm saying!!!! The boy can still be +3, +4, +5, +7 or even +10 depending on what he can get the opponent to block, so changing this has no effect on his ability to be plus. If anything, this will make players frame trap even harder now, which is the opposite of what the whiners wanted.
@@mrAPchem to me now people might micro duck him slightly more often but micro ducks is seriously an advanced technique because you have to be really paying attention and he still might throw out that 9 frame mid anyways.
@@Nonlifting_breezy They certainly can do that. But, the Cages will backdash into mid or B3 and blow them up. Now a can of worms has opened up for the Cage whiners because Cage always had other options besides a raw frame trap - now they will deal with those other things.
@@mrAPchem this is true but I think a lot of cages won’t know this until some video breaks it down for them. Or they’ll get desperate and poke
@@Nonlifting_breezy Ah, I see where you're going with this!
That's not a bad idea for a vid. Thanks!