Why Talonflame Is Used On Stall In Gen 9 OU
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2024
- #pokemon #pokemonshowdown #talonflame
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stall council member here (i voted for talonflames placement on the stall VR), just want to say i think this video is pretty accurate bar a few things
Talonflame is used due to its ability to remove on gholdengo, however with the way stall teams are build this generation, they aim to stack several hazard resistant/immune pokemon on the same team and allow them to take knock off to protect stuff like blissey, clodsire, or dondozo, which will fold to multiple spikes very quickly. The main knock off absorbers used since the onset of the generation are tera flying alomomola, corviknight, gliscor, magic guard clefable, and even sticky hold pokemon with sticky hold such as hydrapple, gastrodon, and even muk.
I do believe this generation it is unfair to call fire/flying a bad typing in OU this gen. There are very few users of rock moves this gen. All gen long, almost nothing, bar the rare head smash great tusk, or rock tomb breloom (both of which have fallen off HARD), nothing has opted to run rock coverage. It can't fit it. The only rock moves in OU most of this generation has been salt cure garganacl (which you hilariously can help pp stall), and the uncommon stone edge ting lu (believe it or not, standard EVs lives this).
Talonflame checks to straight up walls many common OU offensive pokemon, great tusk, non-lum/tera fire kingambit, meowscarada, rillaboom, cinderace, excadrill, and then many variants of pokemon such as dragapult, zamazenta, weavile, iron valiant, enamorus, and scizor. Two major matchups are to choice band tera grass rillaboom, which 2hkos almost everything with wood hammer, besides talonflame and skarmory/corviknight, then meowscarada, which threatens effectively everything and forces switches. These are two matchups cyclizar cannot replicate.
In many matchups, talonflame does not mind losing its HDB. If the opponent's rocker is a pokemon you beat and can switch in on and beat (great tusk, iron treads, skarmory, ting lu, etc), you just come in as they stealth rock, and always defog. Often getting a crucial burns or two, removing the majority of the opponents hazard capacity, then dying early can allow the staller to play a pokemon down at a major advantage.
There are matchups where talonflame struggles. Besides the random tera blast rock, it usually struggles to keep hazards off vs a teraed gholdengo. This is why it has been commonly paied with cyclizar, who can rapid spin on gholdengo if it teras. It also struggles vs several team structures that have a stealth rocker talonflame does not beat, and then a way to consistantly knock off talonflame (such as choice band rillaboom and heatran/gargnanacl). Pairing talonflame with another method of removal such as cyclizar, corviknight, or magic bounce hatterene allows for it to much more efficiently use its defensive profile and not fear switching into knock off nearly as much.
For those wanting to try talonflame stall, the standard set is 252 defense, 196 hp, and 60 speed with a bold nature. This is for outspeeding jolly excadrill, with the moves will-o-wisp, roost, defog, then flamethrower, although temper flare is also viable(run impish). Run heavy duty boots and then a grass or a steel tera type. Grass for walling ogerpon-wellspring and maintaining the vital grass resistance if required to switch into stealth rocks, steel for stonewalling meowscarada.
Cool video, make more stall videos! big stall forever.
Yeah, I think I went a bit too hard on the fire flying typing, its pretty solid, especially outside the stealth rocks weakness. Also was unaware of pairing Cyclizar WITH Talonflame, that pretty interesting!
Iron Boulder??
@@RRRR-jr1gp Iron Boulder is an absolute non-issue for almost every stall team, as Dondozo is on the vast majority of stall teams, and Dondozo walls every Boulder set I'm aware of.
He also forgot to say talonflame stall was amazing in gen 6 back in the day when mega sableye was around with taunt willowisp roost and acrobatics no item it put a looooooot of pressure especially when the opposing didn't have heatran plus checking mold breaker sd excadrill but rlly cool video tho
More proof that the OU council works for big stall
Came for the title, left crying cause of Moltres pitiful spotlight once again.
Don't get it twisted, Moltres is pretty good both in gen 9 OU and Nat Dex (in less defensive playstyles offcourse), thanks to mystycal fire and scorching sands
Moltres is pretty good in balance
Moltres is great and would be used 100% of time over Talon on stall if it got Defog.
I saw Talonflame go from being a Gen 6 OP Gale Wings offensive threat that every casual uses on their team to a stall Mon Gen 7 onwards and it still feels absolutely wild to me.
I know it CAN run support because a priority Tail Wind and fast Will O Wisp absolutely have value but with stats like those, I'd never have foreseen Gale Wings post-nerf getting dropped for a Flame Body fully defensive Burn spreading set!
Talonflame really said “I’m joining the war on stall, on the side of stall.”
It's amazing how pokemon can fill entire roles by having just good enough stats and traits in the right areas.
*flashback to porygon stalling snorlax in gen 1*
Inaccurate, Luxray is way too bad to be in NU
As a Luxray enjoyer, I can sadly confirm
At least Luxray lovers can play Inclement Emerald for how it should've been.
Luxray looks so cool why did gamefreak make it so ass
Talonflame joined the side of big stall :( How will we ever recover
I mean, avalugg too joined the side of big stall sooooo
It was on that side since the end of ORAS because it wasn't that great on offense and thanks to Mega sableye didn't need to worry about rocks. Not sure what happened after mega sableye ban though since i don't follow old gens tournaments
A pokemon defined by being a glass cannon on stall…this game has so much complexity it’s insane.
Back in gen 6 I actually built a tanky talonflame specifically to best mega mence, and I claim to this day it is one of about 3 cool Talonflame sets (I still have so much hatred for the smogon bird)
Is the Smogon Bird really that bad?
Fantastic video. Well researched and edited. Learned something about talonflame that I didn’t know before
Love your videos bro, really good to see the dedication and evolution of your vids!
I loved the video and learned a lot, Keep up the great work
just realized I'd watched a bunch of your videos! subscribed!
Ey, thanks!
I fuck with these video essay light type video on specific pokemon or things and things revolving around the current gen meta. I hope you keep this style of content up
You are a saint. Was gonna make my first ever stall team and had no idea where to start. Thank you, god
Your welcome! I'd also recommend joining the Stall Empire Discord server, as there are a LOT of REALLY good stall players there that can help!
ok so here's something vital. Use Alomamola. Wish plus flipturn and scald is busted.
Evil
We’ve lost another to the pink blobs
I hope your router blows up whenever you get a game after 50 turns /j
is fire/flying really that bad? heavy duty boots patches up the stealth rock issue
it has a valuable fairy fighting steel and ground switch-in
4x times weakness to rock, 2× weakness to water, and eletric, very common moves.
Think of scald
Edit: i forgot this is gen 9, scald isn't as available as before.
Its really not that bad, especially considering how defensively solid it is. Yeah it has THREE weaknesses, one of which is quad, it still has six resists and an immunity. The only thing is that there aren't that many Fire/Flying pokemon that can fully utilize the type combo's defensive traits since most of them are frail, besides Ho-oh and Moltres.
@@ldplays5663 just be careful of positioning with stone edge and knock off, a 2x electric and water weakness isn't that bad (outside of rain heavy metas like this)
+ resisting close combat and u-turn lets talonflame punish a LOT of physical attackers
for countering physical attackers, rock is the biggest hurdle, as physical eletric is ass and physical water is relegated to basically only water types
On paper, Fire just by itself is a good defensive typing. But in practice, Stealth Rocks has defined the metagame ever since it was introduced in Gen 4 and any typing with a 4x Rock weakness (like Fire/flying) is constantly fighting an uphill battle. Heavy-Duty Boots have been a great help for those Rock weak Pokemon but with thay 4x weakness, you basically can't run any other items.
With heavy duty boots Fire flying is actually a decent defensive type. It has resistances to fighting, fairy, fire, grass, bug, steel & an immunity to ground. While only being week to rock, water & electric. People think Fire flying is a bad defensive type because of stealth rocks and the fact that all the Pokémon with the typing are frail.
Outside of rocks the typing is pretty solid. Only major weakness is water, but almost all stall teams are running either mola or dozo if not both, so ignoring rocks, yes, you are very correct!
Nice vid!
Yeah, your talonflame vid was nice too!
Yeah, I’m using that ’mon as a defensive pivot in most of my RU team. It just works.
Good to see Talonflame finding success elsewhere!
I remember in gen 8 monotype fletchlling was my go to. Gale wings with tailwind and an eviolite was surprisingly helpful for a mono normal team, it could even fit roost and defog to be a constant annoyance.
I am commenting to increase engagement metrics
i should comment to do the same.
Based
it worked, never watched this channel before but I’m def subbing
@@kogu1729 Based x2
Bulky Talonflame was one of my favorite sets back in Gen 6
This makes me wonder if one could make a Stall team entirely out of mons usually more suited to Hyper Offense
That's a good question, something with low to average defense seems strange for stall
Very cool video ! The real question is... Why is that clodsire running poison sting?
1. Based Lemmy PFP,
2. Poison sting is generally worse than poison jab, but because it has a lot of PP, and doesn't make contact, its still a decent option.
@@blip_exists ah I see, I thought might as well run toxic spikes or even toxic (since toxic can't miss when it's done by a poison type) but maybe poison sting has a small niche !
Also thx for the compliment, love your content !
@@mehdi7455Glad you like it!
Another stall council member here! I personally would say Talonflame is one of, if not the best final slot on stall. Without good removal, most stall teams would just lose to knock off Weavile or Meowscarada, which Talonflame can beat with good play, especially with flame body and good predicts (and even if you predict wrong, you can still fish for some burns). A good stall player with a strong understanding of the hazard game can prevent hazards from outdamaging regenerators like Alomomola, even though stealth rock and spikes are more than double its pp (allow for the opponent to get a rock and a spike up, but defog when 2 are up; regenerator will outheal 25%). Good mon that probably is even higher on the tier list for stall, borderline A+ mon that does its job well. The tier list used is outdated because it was from DLC 1, but Talonflame only got better while most of the other mons took a hit due to strong knockers like Weavile and Meowscarada that become unbeatable paired with Gholdengo.
Lots of good info here, would give this a pin, but already gave one to knex :p. And glad to here that while the tier list is outdated, Talonflame is still good!
Two Fire Birds, Two Big Stall Agents
I see u held ur promise about that stall vid xd
Yep!
blip certainly does exist in my eyes
1:50 two problem with this statement
1) Incineroar is Indeed buffed every Gen BUT not only he is a starter but It Is also a good defensive tool in metagame that would be absolute Chaos (well Dynamax was trash anyway but shush)
2) Gale Wings giving Twind +1 priority everytime was a bit broken
Yeah, I certainly wasn't complaining about Inceneroar as a pokemon, while I don't play much VGC, Incineroar seems like a non-issue in VGC.
Also, that can be true, even if it is also unfortunate for Talonflame. But yeah, that probably would be broken. especially considering Murkrow got use from doing that same thing.
@@blip_exists It's Always important to contestualize
but yeah Murkrow dependency on sash + foul play make It way less threatning than talonflame ...
even tho there have been a lot of thing to Nerf It so gale wings was fine kinda
@@Mepphy99 Well thanks for providing more info about the VGC side of Talonflame!
2:16 is the high effort memes I come here for
Could you possibly link the Stall tier list you referenced? I think it'd be neat to look at.
Hopefully this link works: media.discordapp.net/attachments/984491613206241311/1170841451492548738/oNX3DOS5lAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC.png?ex=65d27a93&is=65c00593&hm=82791ad9cb22634d3d63c392c065bf8fe3f41b07142bc01289a50ed0758c5643&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=660&height=605
Otherwise, it should be on the stall empire discord server
@@blip_exists Thank you, the link works perfectly! Also it's really neat to see some Pokémon higher than I thought they'd be like Galarian Weezing and Cyclizar. Thanks for this and I hope you have an amazing day 👍.
@@weesticles650 Glad it worked! Hope you have an amazing day as well!
In Gen 8 I had a stall team of Toxapek, Umbreon, Chansey, Dubwool, Azumarill and Charizard. I annoyed so many people into quitting XD. Need to remake it for Gen 9, maybe bring in Dondozo and Skeledirge.
Charizard stall sounds like something else
For me if I could redistrubute it's states, I'd take 40 from spattk and put +10 in both defenses for 20, then put +20 in attack
The issue with redistributing Talonflame's stats is that it uses so many different sets that uses all of its stats. Talonflame has sets that utilize Hp, Attack, Spatk, Def, and Speed. Redistributing almost any of its stats then, will be a nerf to at least one way that Talonflame is played.
I appreciate that Radiohead edit
Thanks! Was listening to some radiohead songs around the time of this, and figured that that one fit!
Feel like gale wing should just not work at half hp
NU stall with talon back when sui existed and chansey existed was hype
Ok wait but why are so many massive walls pink is that a coincidence or is pink just a really bulky color
You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy Stall, not join them!
talonflame has always been used against offense soooo
Stealth rocks aside, fire/flying is not a bad type. In fact, I'd argue it's a good type.
I would agree as well, but its a bit difficult to put a stealth rocks weakness aside.
@@blip_exists That's fair.
Ugh. I think the Rock type would be in a much better spot if that move wasn't so OP. The issue is that Rock is similar to the ice type, being a decent offensive type and a lackluster defensive type. If stealth rocks wasn't a thing, maybe gamefreak would have made better (with better accuracy) rock moves instead.
I played XY OU on debut, and it's funny how a decade later hearing slander about its stats still immediately made my ears tingly. In an era full of Ls for the old guard I'm loving this
I'm in Eviolite enjoyer, I'll admit it, but I've used both a Talonflame and a Fletchinder for this role and I swear to God the mid stage does it better. I also say this about Incin and Torracat so take it with a grain of salt but PLEASE consider Eviolite in general when you're building teams, do it for the lil guys😅
Wait, didn't Gen 7 nerf Talonflame to the ground?
Gen 7 nerfed gale wings, which was what made Talonflame so good. Talonflame on stall notably doesn't use gale wings
Anyone who has seen tyranitartubes alpha sapphire extreme randomizer nuzlock know that God level charizard
For a final evi you think it have higher states
But does it have a niche in Gen 4 Ubers?
If it was around back then, it probably would
Btw talonflame is now never played in gen 6 because of stealth rock
Moltres in shambles glory to speed bird
Today's offense is often tomorrow's stall... You die UU or below or live long enough to become part of a stall core, no exceptions.
talonflame never really got serious usage in OU, in ealy gen 9 it was used on ladder because it was the only fogger ou could handle ghold but around the release of home stall became purely boots spam, people kinda realized that in gen 9 OU there is no such thing as consistant hazard removal. Flame body is fun but not something you wanna rely on, and with the roost PP nerf it really became apperent how frail talonflame is, things that talonflame should win against just do too much damage, adamant booster tusk (witch was common in early meta) 2 hit with a resisted CC. People just realized it wasnt reliable.
This is very untrue. Talonflame has been on many, and still is on, many stall teams since day 1 of gen 9. All stall this generation has been boots spam, but opponents will make progress by setting up many hazards, then using knock off on your team. This is why stall with removal been far more consistant than not.
Talonflame is bulky enough to come into a variety of threats, such as offensive great tusk or kingambit, and threaten burn or just outright wall them.
and by the way 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 196 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 126-148 (36.4 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I do agree it never got serious usage (peaking at 1.7%), but disagree with a lot of the other stuff. Even with full boots comps, Talonflame is still very useful, because of the incredibly high usage of knock off. While knock absorbers do exist, you often won't have more than 1-2 on a team, with it being possible that a knock off user threatens all of your knock absorbers (Meowscarada with knock off and triple axel threatening gliscor and hydrapple), so having some way to remove hazards can still be important. And I half disagree with what you say about Talonflame not being viable. Its is generally unviable outside of stall, being unranked. However, it is fairly good on stall, with the current ranking putting it at A rank, the 8th best stallmon (Though an updated version is coming soon, and Alomamola will almost certainly be ranked higher). Even something like adamant booster tusk wills till struggle against Flame outspeeding and spamming wisp, with Talonflame almost certain to neutralize at least one threat.
i find it funny how all physical tanks are literal birds xD
My faveourite bird is a scorpion
@@blip_exists Agreed Drapion is awesome.
@@fogwzu1939 Drapion is my favourite flightless bird
*was sry
I faced stall talonflame months ago and it was a nightmare
Buff Talonflame
If you can't beat them, stall them
Damn you exist?
Yep! I think...
*Laughs in RU
God im glad i wasnt around when choice band gale wing brave birds where more common that shitty youtube apology videos
What they did to Talonflame was straight up unfair. Ok, the mon was OP, but there are a lot of OP mons that have never been nerfed, not even a little. And suddenly they decide to neef this guy to the ground by making a simple change that destroys half of the things it can do
I would say they nerfed the ability in case they decided to give it to a Pokemon better than Talonflame in the future... but it's been 3 whole generations and that hasn't happened yet, so I don't know. GameFreak balancing is absolutely trash.
Stall is NOT cool blip who forced you to say it is 😭
Big Stall did, they are currently holding me capti-
What was I saying? Forget I said anything, and praise our defensive overlords
Man, that revelation about "stall is cool" makes me to dislike this video