As an apprentice I was taught that when you get a block that’s bored or surfaced you always cleaned out all stud holes and ran the high pressure hose through the water jacket, also if we had a head off you insured all stud holes were free of any liquid or the studs would most likely hydraulic.
Just a thought, maybe instead of relying on the small print on the invoice that a warning sticker is placed on the engine to bring to the customer's attention that the engine has not been cleaned, or that every engine is returned with post-machine guidelines. There is being right and there is taking steps to avoid a customer complaining, even when it is not your fault.
Agree. Relying upon the small-print, although correct, isn't great practice. Just an old-school printed cardboard tag tied on with string would suffice.
Having built my first engine in the early 1970 because I could not afford to pay for a builder. The engine builder is ALWAYS responsible for confirming all the parts are clean and correct. As you say the cost of big red warning note printed on the invoice is simple insurance.
i used to build ford crossflows, and after when one went bang, found the brand new oil pump full of crud, same Company lee uses for all of his Ford stuff, after that, even a brand new oil pump, always took it to bits and deburred everything, and flushed it clean you would be amazed how much crap comes out of a BRAND NEW oil pump!
Note in great big letters in with the item: "This xxx has been given a basic clean but the customer _must_ ensure it is thoroughly cleaned prior to assembly".
But it needs to go on the block, not the just the invoice, the guy assembling it in the workshop will never see the invoice which probably goes in a pile straight to the accounts girl.
Fair enough. Cleaning is part of building, not machining. A big sticker saying something like "Not clean- please clean before assembling" might avoid accidents? You could affix one to everything that needs a thorough clean. Edit to add, I see someone else suggested the same thing.
Any machine shop should blow out the block to remove loose swarf but as you say 100% cleaning ready for assembly is not practical unless you are building the engine yourself. I agree a large red sticker on the uncleaned block or head saying "final cleaning needed" is a good approach.
Maybe you could modify your procedure to fit plastic threaded plugs in your tapped long stud sockets after leaving them cleaned thoroughly. You could also provide a cleaning modus operandi specific to those for the fitter to refer to; "anti-destruction destructions"..... with no compulsion for them to be read but a further aid to any warranty issues.
Even just plastic bungs/caps might suffice to keep them clear from this sort of risk. The only trouble is that this might be used as the basis to claim that they relied on them being totally clean in the event of any dispute when swarf was subsequently a problem, detracting from the industry custom of the Fitter being responsible/liable for cleaning ... 🤔
Very good Lee (Barum) mind😎 you said it a few times lol, if there building themselves, they should be cleaning, end of as you have explained, (very reasonable)
I was building Chevy V-8 engines 40 years ago and when I picked up the block and heads, the machinist I used always told me face yo face to make sure I cleaned it all again inside and out before I put it together.
from America and I've built alot of engines over the years, it's the customers responsibility to make sure everything is clean before putting the engine back together. one, u doesn't know if the customer put the engine back together on the dirt floor or transported it in a trash truck. agree 100% with u on this.
Provided you are not fighting customers making claims caused by no cleaning, no problem. It came across as though you were wide open to claims by not cleaning.
What I don’t understand is Lee is now saying that it was clean and he did blow it out? And when the customer washed the block (if he did) swarf filled the stud hole. Yeah whatever. I like the story about the farmer throwing the cylinder head in some hay in the back of a van. Maybe the customer turned up in an old transit full of scrap metal, then threw his cossie block in the back. Come on guys take some responsibility.
Lee i totally disagree with you with regards to cleaning after your machining process , So are you telling me that when you buy a component for one of your engines you stripe it and clean it before you use it , l know that's not the case , With regards to people doing machining work after the work you have done then yes they should clean the component , However if the failed part is returned to you with no evidence of work being done post your work then you are liable for repairs due to swarf residue , Sorry but that's the way it goes Lee.
I think it's been explained very well. The assembler is responsible for cleaning. Would you, if you were assembling an engine, not inspect and clean all parts?
I think that you have stuck your head in the sand and missed the whole point here With everything there is balance and instead of a straight no a little bit more attention to holes and corners This is going to bite you in the arse again guaranteed
I agree with you. When I'm rebuilding an engine - If I get a head / block machined, I expect to have to do a full clean myself - it takes forever, its a ballache and I've invested in degreaser/ cleaning kit myself to help out. The one exception is the odd occasion where my old machinist would fully clean and reassemble the head / valves for me (Since he did the seats and guides). It would save a lot of time - I could get the car turned around quicker if I specified the head "ready to go" - and I'd pay for it.. But apart from this - I expect to spend freaking hours cleaning blocks/heads...
Perhaps you could give some adivce on the invoice or and put a Lable on the engine - what areas to check and clean in RED print; cost nothing and every one knows where they stand.
No point putting it on the just the invoice, the guy assembling it in the workshop will never see the invoice. You also need a tag on the part saying "needs final cleaning"... personally, I would blow it out upside down, plastic bag it, add a tie wrap and a "part needs final cleaning" tag and despatch it looking like a really pro job. Extra cost, about a quid. Result? Customer job goes right, customer happy, and happy customers are repeat customers.
Surely a good option on machining work is to have a fee/price to do the job, any other work required is an extra and that includes cleaning it, yes you can do your own quick clean and then give the customer the option to deep clean it himself or have you deep clean it as an extra, options options options its not rocket science
Any competent engine builder ought to clean and check the engine parts and assembly before finally building it. Personally, I don't trust what anyone else has done if I can verify it for myself.
Nope, nope nope. Yes, you put in the conditions that yes, it is the customers responsibility to clean the engine out ... BUT BUT BUT ... clean up your mess anyway. Blow it out as best you can, put a "needs cleaning" sticker ... and STILL CLEAN IT OUT anyway. That stud hole was full to half way up with swarf, just clean it out as best you can, blow it out ... leave the job as smart as you can, make it looks professional. So yes, we agree ... it is ultimately the customers responsibility ... BUT clean up your mess as best you can, turning it upside down and blowing out is fine. Put a sticker on the work ... "PRE-ASSEMBLY CLEANING REQUIRED"
@@who-gives-a-toss_Bear The whole point is to produce jobs that delight the customer and build repeat business. Regardless of the wording in the small print at the bottom of the invoice, you think that customer is either pleased or will come back? (ps: you think the mechaic in the workshop got to see the invoice and read the small print? Thats why you put a sticker). If you send work off and one company returns it dirty and unwrapped and the other returns it relatively clean, in a plastic bag with tie wrap and some advice reminder about "needs pre-assembly cleaning" even though you blew it out ... which one you going to use next time?
Think it's right should have been cleaned then stud could have been screwed in and checked properly but it's fair enough that the person should have cleaned it but that should have been cleaned and checked
I absolutely agree with you in the engine builders responsibility to clean all the parts not yours, but , I've had lots of engine parts, heads, blocks machined. I've never seen any visible swarf on them, even some of the pig iron perkins i've had done. While i enjoy your content, love the Cosworth side of it, I think you need to up your game a bit on the cleaning side of things. You only need to look at your machines, deep in swarf, hardly ever cleaned, not really a good look for a higher end engine builder. You need to be better than the guy down the road as it were. Like i say ,keep up all your Cosworth content and convince me to take my next lot of machining to you👍
iam with you on this one Boys. I've never put anything together straight away,after getting it back from the Machine shop. Sometimes it's taken a long time. People are in such a Rush these days, when it goes wrong,there looking for someone to Blame. Great video Boys. Keep up the good work.
Unfortunately assemblers and mechanics who take short cuts and just slap things together without cleaning them properly have ALWAYS tried to blame the machinist when things go south. We always put a big red tag on the parts saying "Please Clean Before Final Assembly".
I agree it's up to the builder who is doing the final assembly to clean it thoroughly but you keep telling us how good you are. When you know it's a known issue with the bottom of the long studs you should still clean these areas up otherwise you're no better than the back street builders you continually criticise.
My question remains “what sort of engine builder would not notice that one stud was about 6-10 mm above all the others? Was there even enough thread above the head? Surely the amount of thread above the nut would alert someone that something was wrong.” I agree with you.
a few of points - I agree with you - having spent time in the industry 1) it's the assembler's job to ensure that the parts are clean and ready for assembly. That includes ensuring the bores are free of honing residue, all oil galleries are clean, all threads are intact and all blind holes are free of debris, water or oil, 2) Even if you take responsibility for cleaning (ie charge for it) you cant guarantee dirt dust grit and mouse or rat shit wont get into the parts in transit or while its siting around waiting assembly (which might be months and months). 3) YOU DO need to ensure the client is aware that cleaning their responsibility - if the client is not aware what it takes to PROPERLY CLEAN AND INSPECT parts for assembly they SHOULD NOT be building engines (or anything else).
Comone mate just cop this one on the chin. And make it standard operating procedure to clean out and blow out blind tapped holes, period. The rest of your cleaning regime I don't know what's your industry standard is , but as a machinist of 40 years I always always and will always continue to clean out tapped holes.
Just sweet the crap under the machine.you won’t see it from your front room . 😮what. It’s someone else’s job you are not responsible for putting it in the bin.😅
Lee, you are absolutely right… if you’re not assembling all the bits to make the engine whole, the assembler must be responsible for thoroughly cleaning everything. If it wasn’t this way, any cockup by the assembler would be thrown right back in your lap. Good for you for putting a disclaimer on the paper work and drawing a line in the sand on this matter.
I have NEVER received parts from a machine shop without performing a lthurough cleaning afterwards, as they ALWAYS stipulate. Who knows? Someone could have been weilding a broom.
Do you Gentlemen Cerakote the Turbine Housing on the Turbos you install?!? Ceramic Coating was originally invented by Rolls-Royce Aero Engines to be applied to the Turbine Blades in their Jet Engines. Kept the Titanium Blades from melting. It makes sense to Cerakote both the inside and outside of the Housing and the Turbine Wheel itself. Cerakote on the Housing locks the heat inside and Cerakote on the Wheel reduces expansion and protects it. Cerakote also reduces Surface Friction for better Air Flow.
Builder is responsible for cleanliness. I used to work for engine manufacturer, how would a car buyer feel if the mfr said "not our warranty, perhaps the dirt was from the parts company, chase them"?! Likewise, is the WHOLE of the Cossie cleanliness on ADH (I think you said) who blasted the cover you're posting to the customer? Don't think so!
225/45r17 and 255/40r17 are exactly the same roll out . Even lookin at the side walls they look the same just 2 inches width between. That should be your tire side. I used to have that above tire on 17x8 wheels before I went to 17x9 and 17x10 wheels with a 255/40 on the front 275x40 rear on my rx7 . The car handled better with the narrow staggering vers wide
Sadly we live in a world where someone else is always to blame ! All you can do is make your disclaimer BIGGER and more colourful on your invoices ! 😁👍👍👍
Hi im always been into engineering and cars and engines ect... what courses do colleges offer for this as curious ? Any information is appreciated thanks. Your apprentice seems pretty clued up you need to keep hold of him. Great channel this...all the best ! I originally qualified as an Electrician but fancy a change but im 44 now lol 😂 But seriously fair play to.your jedi padawan !
I did not see the comments, but I assume you were talking about the cosworth with the long stud job, and all I can say is the fault lies with the assembler in that case... I bet they never checked the height of the tops of the studs. If they had they would have noticed a considerable discrepancy. I would also suggest to you that if you do a job like that, for your own peace of mind, (and I bet you will ALWAYS in the future) you should check yourself that the stud can screw in completely. Not having the new stud kit shouldn't matter to someone doing this and replacing them all the time, as I am sure you can find plenty aroung of the length you need to test. Regardless of that, the cleaning is a REQUIREMENT of anyone assembling the motor.
What’s your own moto when someone brings in an engine that’s ‘been done’ ? “Never assume anything… “ So nor should an engine builder after machining work.
You should always check parts are clean when rebuilding anything,more damage is done putting grotty parts on things,cheak things are clean,if you rebuild a injection pump,you would clean everything,twice,so why is a engine any different, get a engine from reman,you have paid him to clean the parts he has work on,the customer does have to ensure ALL parts are clean inside and out,good video,but it will create debate,usually about who’s paying.
I don't think anyone is disputing that your shop puts out good work but by the sounds of it your just looking for a way out if it was my block I would want a new one I think the customer being happy for it to be bodged was your best get out! After watching these vids I think you should do the right thing give him a block that isn't compromised do a sorry video get your pats on the head and move on. Someone told me to watch your videos but to be honest all I've seen is you playing the blame game there's problems in every video I've watched and it's never your fault. You do a lot of work mistakes happen that's called being human it just takes a man to admit when they are wrong. Good luck for the future I've got a feeling you need it.
This is making me angry I brought a cosworth with a newly built head the engine was in two the guy said it just needs bolting together I noticed grit so had my engine builder stip it it was a horror story the valve spring pedestals were missing even though it had new valve stem seals! (thanks to Harvey gibbs for the pedestals) turns out all oil ways were packed with grit. I washed it out today went over kill on it but to be fair it wasn't difficult and didn't take 3 hours. People without engine experience shouldn't be responsible for the crap left behind from someone who does half a job. I think you have made yourself look foolish here how many of your customers are sat there now after watching this thinking God is there metal files in my engine! I do get what your saying about it being a machining job but if that's your way of doing things then I question what your leaving in people's engines surely there is a process of cleaning properly weather you are building the engine or not building the engine the way this has gone on in my eyes you have set the guy up to fail!!! And he will be only one of many I'm sure.
Lee, it IS the builders responsibility, and you have it in print, but all the same, just put some red magic marker or bright color nail polish / dykem spray paint on those holes so they HAVE to clean it up better, it might cost a few pennies but will save you money in your reduced time lost to unnecessary calls.
You do like to get into an argument don't you. My advice is don't. Stop it. It is time consuming and makes you no money nor friends. Look after people/customers and the money will look after itself.
Well I partially agree with you Lee. I think you should make it plain and clear on the invoice that all engine parts supplied pre building, the builders responsibility is to ensure all swarf is removed as you cannot guarantee this after it has left you premises. Maybe put it in BOLD print
In my experience people only read the the bottom line on an invoice,and that's with one eye closed😂 l think to cover your self Have a sticker on the Part (in red ) stating what's on your invoice,to ensure who works on the part knows their responsible for Cleaning the Item prior to assembly.
Sounds like the person who cut corners with the servicing on the six cylinder Ingenium is going to try and cut corners again with the rebuild. I'm not sure that will turn out well.
Anyone who has machined cast iron on a lathe and hasn't cleaned it down for a few days will know Lee is 100% right on his theory how the cast iron cuttings became solid in the bottom of the tapped hole, cast iron cuttings and moisture will set like concrete.
Well, my ex wife was an old glue. How do you get that you ask? What do you do with an old worn out horse that is no good for anything any more? Have a good weekend lads. :-)
Glad you read the comments. Basically you were acting as a sub contractor on the engine and in my experience every job should go out deburred and cleaned.
Panelbond is amazing. One of the first cars to use it in "numbers" whas the 1st Lotus Elise. The alu extruded frame was bonded, not welded. According to Lotus (and I believe them) this was stornger than welding it. They went to Denmark to get the expertise to do this and since then, they have sold their experience in using it in automotive mass production to many car manufacturers.
Very true and many many manufacturers bond panels/stress bearing parts today as there's so much more surface area used than a normal weld or spot weld. A lot of body shops will use panel bond for part or patch panels as there's zero risk of warping from welding 👍
While it is the ultimate responsibility of the assembler to ensure that everything is clean, it is poor workmanship to send out something that you know is of full crap.
Lee, customer was just annoyed as he realised should of got you to build the whole thing. What if in transit a bit or debris of wood from the pallet fell in the stud hole. You pay for what you get. As a trades person you check every part your fitting, including what your fitting to is clean and not going to cause an issue. It's called being due diligent
...not sure if you were using that broom correctly, as I think it is a 'push' broom and not a 'push & pull' broom! your apprentice should be able to guide you? 🤔 😜 🤣
Pulling is the correct method of use, pushing results in dirt being flicked up into the room you are cleaning when you reach the end of the push stroke and the bristles return to their normal position.
You are not expected to make your blocks perfectly clean before shipping but a basic go over with the air hose to clear swarf would be entirely reasonable. Spend 5 minutes and save problems. Plus it gives you a chance to do a final check on the work. How do you know the hole packed with swarf is actually tapped to the bottom?
Cleaning the parts after machining is always the customers'/builders' responsibility, not the responsibility of the machinist. Unless the business doing the machining is doing the full build, then they're responsible for the cleaning as well.
that's the industry standard where i am as well the machinist can't guarantee the part wont sit on the shelf in some blokes garage for months and months with rats and mice running all over the job.
Funny isn’t it … on this explanation the majority seem to be behind you … in the previous video it was a sh*t storm of ‘you own it’ … the internet is indeed a fickle place …
Hi guys, 16:30 I agree that it is the builders responsability to clean and prep before assembly.. BUT... more important...THE SCAFFOLDING HAS GONE... Cordialement,
Pulling is the correct method of use, pushing results in dirt being flicked up into the room you are cleaning when you reach the end of the push stroke and the bristles return to their normal position.
@@Unimatrix69 Pulling results in exactly the same flick. Pulling just ensures you get dirt on yourself. It is all dependent on how much pressure you put on the broom. But it was a joke not a complaint.
I totally agree with Lee here. Either he has to do a very thorough cleaning, charge for it, and is liable, or he doesn't clean at all other than blow off some of the chips as he mentioned so they're not falling all over the place when shipping the part out. I think it's better for a customer to be able to look at a part and clearly see that it needs to be cleaned rather than a partial clean that may cause a customer to forget and forgo a thorough cleaning. I think it's a huge liability issue to clean and have to stand behind the cleaning on machined engine parts that go out and are assembled by someone else. I feel that Barum needs to only concern themselves with cleaning the engines that they are building themselves where they can control the contamination. My two cents.
You didn't state in that specific video that your terms of contract for machining exclude cleaning. If you had then this debate would have been completely avoided.
15:30 You are so RIGHT.
The engine builder is ALWAYS responsible for cleaning and checking everything before building.
As an apprentice I was taught that when you get a block that’s bored or surfaced you always cleaned out all stud holes and ran the high pressure hose through the water jacket, also if we had a head off you insured all stud holes were free of any liquid or the studs would most likely hydraulic.
Just a thought, maybe instead of relying on the small print on the invoice that a warning sticker is placed on the engine to bring to the customer's attention that the engine has not been cleaned, or that every engine is returned with post-machine guidelines.
There is being right and there is taking steps to avoid a customer complaining, even when it is not your fault.
This is a great suggestion 👍
Very good idea!!
Customers will complain about the glue from the stickers ... ! 😂
Agree. Relying upon the small-print, although correct, isn't great practice. Just an old-school printed cardboard tag tied on with string would suffice.
Having built my first engine in the early 1970 because I could not afford to pay for a builder.
The engine builder is ALWAYS responsible for confirming all the parts are clean and correct.
As you say the cost of big red warning note printed on the invoice is simple insurance.
That LR engine would make a great boat anchor. Then replace the engine with an M57 BMW unit.
i used to build ford crossflows, and after when one went bang, found the brand new oil pump full of crud, same Company lee uses for all of his Ford stuff, after that, even a brand new oil pump, always took it to bits and deburred everything, and flushed it clean
you would be amazed how much crap comes out of a BRAND NEW oil pump!
He who bilds it does the final clean ,
And that was a perfect explanation and I agree with you! The builder is responsible for cleaning it before putting it together
Note in great big letters in with the item: "This xxx has been given a basic clean but the customer _must_ ensure it is thoroughly cleaned prior to assembly".
But it needs to go on the block, not the just the invoice, the guy assembling it in the workshop will never see the invoice which probably goes in a pile straight to the accounts girl.
Fair enough. Cleaning is part of building, not machining. A big sticker saying something like "Not clean- please clean before assembling" might avoid accidents? You could affix one to everything that needs a thorough clean. Edit to add, I see someone else suggested the same thing.
Any machine shop should blow out the block to remove loose swarf but as you say 100% cleaning ready for assembly is not practical unless you are building the engine yourself. I agree a large red sticker on the uncleaned block or head saying "final cleaning needed" is a good approach.
That cossie should be put in a glass case …
Maybe you could modify your procedure to fit plastic threaded plugs in your tapped long stud sockets after leaving them cleaned thoroughly. You could also provide a cleaning modus operandi specific to those for the fitter to refer to; "anti-destruction destructions"..... with no compulsion for them to be read but a further aid to any warranty issues.
Even just plastic bungs/caps might suffice to keep them clear from this sort of risk. The only trouble is that this might be used as the basis to claim that they relied on them being totally clean in the event of any dispute when swarf was subsequently a problem, detracting from the industry custom of the Fitter being responsible/liable for cleaning ... 🤔
Very good Lee (Barum) mind😎 you said it a few times lol, if there building themselves, they should be cleaning, end of as you have explained, (very reasonable)
I was building Chevy V-8 engines 40 years ago and when I picked up the block and heads, the machinist I used always told me face yo face to make sure I cleaned it all again inside and out before I put it together.
from America and I've built alot of engines over the years, it's the customers responsibility to make sure everything is clean before putting the engine back together. one, u doesn't know if the customer put the engine back together on the dirt floor or transported it in a trash truck. agree 100% with u on this.
Provided you are not fighting customers making claims caused by no cleaning, no problem. It came across as though you were wide open to claims by not cleaning.
What I don’t understand is Lee is now saying that it was clean and he did blow it out? And when the customer washed the block (if he did) swarf filled the stud hole. Yeah whatever. I like the story about the farmer throwing the cylinder head in some hay in the back of a van. Maybe the customer turned up in an old transit full of scrap metal, then threw his cossie block in the back. Come on guys take some responsibility.
Mat armstrongs BMW strut tower was rivetted and structurally bonded iirc
So You do have a disclaimer in the invoice!
Even more BS, sorry but how do you check a thread is tapped correct if swarf is still in the hole. So you don`t check your work hmmm.
Do you ever watch the BoostedBoiz in the USA
They K swap just about everything . And Sonic203 they good with the Hondas as welll
Lee i totally disagree with you with regards to cleaning after your machining process , So are you telling me that when you buy a component for one of your engines you stripe it and clean it before you use it , l know that's not the case , With regards to people doing machining work after the work you have done then yes they should clean the component , However if the failed part is returned to you with no evidence of work being done post your work then you are liable for repairs due to swarf residue , Sorry but that's the way it goes Lee.
I think it's been explained very well.
The assembler is responsible for cleaning.
Would you, if you were assembling an engine, not inspect and clean all parts?
I guess David has never working in any kind of workshop.
@@robdefire4747 LOL , I am a time served Tool Maker and worked in a Motorsport machine shop for 30 years.
@@davidcook380 sure.
I think that you have stuck your head in the sand and missed the whole point here
With everything there is balance and instead of a straight no a little bit more attention to holes and corners
This is going to bite you in the arse again guaranteed
That brooms had 25 new heads and 17 handles. And it's still original. 😂
The boss sweeps the floor whilst the apprentice films him 😊
Only fools and Horses. Haha😂
How the hell is it the same broom, as trigger gets a photo out of his pocket, f ing classic, and still as funny today
I'm calling Lee " Trigger" from now on. Haha😂
Here's a photograph of it what more do you want 😂
I agree with you. When I'm rebuilding an engine - If I get a head / block machined, I expect to have to do a full clean myself - it takes forever, its a ballache and I've invested in degreaser/ cleaning kit myself to help out. The one exception is the odd occasion where my old machinist would fully clean and reassemble the head / valves for me (Since he did the seats and guides). It would save a lot of time - I could get the car turned around quicker if I specified the head "ready to go" - and I'd pay for it.. But apart from this - I expect to spend freaking hours cleaning blocks/heads...
Perhaps you could give some adivce on the invoice or and put a Lable on the engine - what areas to check and clean in RED print; cost nothing and every one knows where they stand.
No point putting it on the just the invoice, the guy assembling it in the workshop will never see the invoice. You also need a tag on the part saying "needs final cleaning"... personally, I would blow it out upside down, plastic bag it, add a tie wrap and a "part needs final cleaning" tag and despatch it looking like a really pro job. Extra cost, about a quid. Result? Customer job goes right, customer happy, and happy customers are repeat customers.
Surely a good option on machining work is to have a fee/price to do the job, any other work required is an extra and that includes cleaning it, yes you can do your own quick clean and then give the customer the option to deep clean it himself or have you deep clean it as an extra, options options options its not rocket science
Any competent engine builder ought to clean and check the engine parts and assembly before finally building it. Personally, I don't trust what anyone else has done if I can verify it for myself.
Nope, nope nope. Yes, you put in the conditions that yes, it is the customers responsibility to clean the engine out ... BUT BUT BUT ... clean up your mess anyway. Blow it out as best you can, put a "needs cleaning" sticker ... and STILL CLEAN IT OUT anyway. That stud hole was full to half way up with swarf, just clean it out as best you can, blow it out ... leave the job as smart as you can, make it looks professional. So yes, we agree ... it is ultimately the customers responsibility ... BUT clean up your mess as best you can, turning it upside down and blowing out is fine. Put a sticker on the work ... "PRE-ASSEMBLY CLEANING REQUIRED"
They are engine builders NOT preschoolers that need to have there hand held and talked down too.
@@who-gives-a-toss_Bear The whole point is to produce jobs that delight the customer and build repeat business. Regardless of the wording in the small print at the bottom of the invoice, you think that customer is either pleased or will come back? (ps: you think the mechaic in the workshop got to see the invoice and read the small print? Thats why you put a sticker). If you send work off and one company returns it dirty and unwrapped and the other returns it relatively clean, in a plastic bag with tie wrap and some advice reminder about "needs pre-assembly cleaning" even though you blew it out ... which one you going to use next time?
Think it's right should have been cleaned then stud could have been screwed in and checked properly but it's fair enough that the person should have cleaned it but that should have been cleaned and checked
I absolutely agree with you in the engine builders responsibility to clean all the parts not yours, but , I've had lots of engine parts, heads, blocks machined. I've never seen any visible swarf on them, even some of the pig iron perkins i've had done. While i enjoy your content, love the Cosworth side of it, I think you need to up your game a bit on the cleaning side of things. You only need to look at your machines, deep in swarf, hardly ever cleaned, not really a good look for a higher end engine builder. You need to be better than the guy down the road as it were.
Like i say ,keep up all your Cosworth content and convince me to take my next lot of machining to you👍
iam with you on this one Boys.
I've never put anything together straight away,after getting it back from the Machine shop.
Sometimes it's taken a long time.
People are in such a Rush these days, when it goes wrong,there looking for someone to Blame.
Great video Boys.
Keep up the good work.
For Sale, Mark 3 Broom. One careful owner. Only used on Fridays.
To make people more aware and helpful. Leave a label on each engine it's self to be cleaned thoroughly before build.
The amount of heads all types and blocks I have had I never had clean out again in 35 years sorry don't agree with what you said
Sorry mate me and the wife are very disappointed with your sweeping effort.
🤣
Unfortunately assemblers and mechanics who take short cuts and just slap things together without cleaning them properly have ALWAYS tried to blame the machinist when things go south.
We always put a big red tag on the parts saying "Please Clean Before Final Assembly".
Great video 👍 A large red tag saying, inspection and clean before build! 😊
they have been glueing airplanes together for a long time
Totally agree with you it’s the customer responsibility to clean the block if they are building it
I agree it's up to the builder who is doing the final assembly to clean it thoroughly but you keep telling us how good you are. When you know it's a known issue with the bottom of the long studs you should still clean these areas up otherwise you're no better than the back street builders you continually criticise.
My question remains “what sort of engine builder would not notice that one stud was about 6-10 mm above all the others? Was there even enough thread above the head? Surely the amount of thread above the nut would alert someone that something was wrong.” I agree with you.
a few of points - I agree with you - having spent time in the industry 1) it's the assembler's job to ensure that the parts are clean and ready for assembly. That includes ensuring the bores are free of honing residue, all oil galleries are clean, all threads are intact and all blind holes are free of debris, water or oil, 2) Even if you take responsibility for cleaning (ie charge for it) you cant guarantee dirt dust grit and mouse or rat shit wont get into the parts in transit or while its siting around waiting assembly (which might be months and months). 3) YOU DO need to ensure the client is aware that cleaning their responsibility - if the client is not aware what it takes to PROPERLY CLEAN AND INSPECT parts for assembly they SHOULD NOT be building engines (or anything else).
Comone mate just cop this one on the chin. And make it standard operating procedure to clean out and blow out blind tapped holes, period. The rest of your cleaning regime I don't know what's your industry standard is , but as a machinist of 40 years I always always and will always continue to clean out tapped holes.
Es Mt it's called taking pride in your work good to hear there are people still out there with standards
Just sweet the crap under the machine.you won’t see it from your front room . 😮what. It’s someone else’s job you are not responsible for putting it in the bin.😅
😂
Lee, you are absolutely right… if you’re not assembling all the bits to make the engine whole, the assembler must be responsible for thoroughly cleaning everything. If it wasn’t this way, any cockup by the assembler would be thrown right back in your lap. Good for you for putting a disclaimer on the paper work and drawing a line in the sand on this matter.
Ok so it might be in the small print. But why not put a tag on the job saying it needs cleaning out before assembly so anyone can see it.
or put it in large print in red at the bottom of the invoice
Speak to James at Autodynamix near you for wiring 😁
Not supposed to just sweep it under the machinery!
😂
Out of sight, out of mind...
At least when long studding, blow the threads out. Migrating swarf, interesting. Lol.
Agreed, a new hole shouldn't be impacted with swarf. I fully accept the customer is responsible for final clean but machined parts should be 'clean'
I have NEVER received parts from a machine shop without performing a lthurough cleaning afterwards, as they ALWAYS stipulate. Who knows? Someone could have been weilding a broom.
245 -40 - 18 on a 9.5 rear rim will look stretched , I have 235 - 40 - 19 on 8.5 rims , best Mich they look perfect , so I think you’ll need 255’s
Do you Gentlemen Cerakote the Turbine Housing on the Turbos you install?!? Ceramic Coating was originally invented by Rolls-Royce Aero Engines to be applied to the Turbine Blades in their Jet Engines. Kept the Titanium Blades from melting. It makes sense to Cerakote both the inside and outside of the Housing and the Turbine Wheel itself. Cerakote on the Housing locks the heat inside and Cerakote on the Wheel reduces expansion and protects it. Cerakote also reduces Surface Friction for better Air Flow.
Nothing wrong with the right glue. The aluminium Jag XJ (2002 onwards) was glued and riveted, and they reckon it's stronger than anything comparable.
Builder is responsible for cleanliness. I used to work for engine manufacturer, how would a car buyer feel if the mfr said "not our warranty, perhaps the dirt was from the parts company, chase them"?! Likewise, is the WHOLE of the Cossie cleanliness on ADH (I think you said) who blasted the cover you're posting to the customer? Don't think so!
A380 wings are glued together
225/45r17 and 255/40r17 are exactly the same roll out . Even lookin at the side walls they look the same just 2 inches width between. That should be your tire side. I used to have that above tire on 17x8 wheels before I went to 17x9 and 17x10 wheels with a 255/40 on the front 275x40 rear on my rx7 . The car handled better with the narrow staggering vers wide
Sadly we live in a world where someone else is always to blame !
All you can do is make your disclaimer BIGGER and more colourful on your invoices ! 😁👍👍👍
Hi im always been into engineering and cars and engines ect... what courses do colleges offer for this as curious ? Any information is appreciated thanks. Your apprentice seems pretty clued up you need to keep hold of him.
Great channel this...all the best !
I originally qualified as an Electrician but fancy a change but im 44 now lol 😂
But seriously fair play to.your jedi padawan !
I did not see the comments, but I assume you were talking about the cosworth with the long stud job, and all I can say is the fault lies with the assembler in that case... I bet they never checked the height of the tops of the studs. If they had they would have noticed a considerable discrepancy.
I would also suggest to you that if you do a job like that, for your own peace of mind, (and I bet you will ALWAYS in the future) you should check yourself that the stud can screw in completely. Not having the new stud kit shouldn't matter to someone doing this and replacing them all the time, as I am sure you can find plenty aroung of the length you need to test.
Regardless of that, the cleaning is a REQUIREMENT of anyone assembling the motor.
What’s your own moto when someone brings in an engine that’s ‘been done’ ?
“Never assume anything… “
So nor should an engine builder after machining work.
You should always check parts are clean when rebuilding anything,more damage is done putting grotty parts on things,cheak things are clean,if you rebuild a injection pump,you would clean everything,twice,so why is a engine any different, get a engine from reman,you have paid him to clean the parts he has work on,the customer does have to ensure ALL parts are clean inside and out,good video,but it will create debate,usually about who’s paying.
I don't think anyone is disputing that your shop puts out good work but by the sounds of it your just looking for a way out if it was my block I would want a new one I think the customer being happy for it to be bodged was your best get out! After watching these vids I think you should do the right thing give him a block that isn't compromised do a sorry video get your pats on the head and move on. Someone told me to watch your videos but to be honest all I've seen is you playing the blame game there's problems in every video I've watched and it's never your fault. You do a lot of work mistakes happen that's called being human it just takes a man to admit when they are wrong. Good luck for the future I've got a feeling you need it.
This is making me angry I brought a cosworth with a newly built head the engine was in two the guy said it just needs bolting together I noticed grit so had my engine builder stip it it was a horror story the valve spring pedestals were missing even though it had new valve stem seals! (thanks to Harvey gibbs for the pedestals) turns out all oil ways were packed with grit. I washed it out today went over kill on it but to be fair it wasn't difficult and didn't take 3 hours. People without engine experience shouldn't be responsible for the crap left behind from someone who does half a job. I think you have made yourself look foolish here how many of your customers are sat there now after watching this thinking God is there metal files in my engine! I do get what your saying about it being a machining job but if that's your way of doing things then I question what your leaving in people's engines surely there is a process of cleaning properly weather you are building the engine or not building the engine the way this has gone on in my eyes you have set the guy up to fail!!! And he will be only one of many I'm sure.
Its a brush, a broom is totally different, think witch!
Gee there are some “nanny stater’s here, careful you don’t drink some brake fluid, because it doesn’t have a warning on it.😂
Lee, it IS the builders responsibility, and you have it in print, but all the same, just put some red magic marker or bright color nail polish / dykem spray paint on those holes so they HAVE to clean it up better, it might cost a few pennies but will save you money in your reduced time lost to unnecessary calls.
You do like to get into an argument don't you.
My advice is don't. Stop it. It is time consuming and makes you no money nor friends.
Look after people/customers and the money will look after itself.
I think you should wrap your engines if they arnt fully built 👍👍
Well I partially agree with you Lee. I think you should make it plain and clear on the invoice that all engine parts supplied pre building, the builders responsibility is to ensure all swarf is removed as you cannot guarantee this after it has left you premises. Maybe put it in BOLD print
In my experience people only read the the bottom line on an invoice,and that's with one eye closed😂 l think to cover your self Have a sticker on the Part (in red ) stating what's on your invoice,to ensure who works on the part knows their responsible for Cleaning the Item prior to assembly.
Sounds like the person who cut corners with the servicing on the six cylinder Ingenium is going to try and cut corners again with the rebuild. I'm not sure that will turn out well.
Anyone who has machined cast iron on a lathe and hasn't cleaned it down for a few days will know Lee is 100% right on his theory how the cast iron cuttings became solid in the bottom of the tapped hole, cast iron cuttings and moisture will set like concrete.
Add an iIMPORTANT note to your invoice!
Well, my ex wife was an old glue. How do you get that you ask? What do you do with an old worn out horse that is no good for anything any more?
Have a good weekend lads. :-)
Glad you read the comments. Basically you were acting as a sub contractor on the engine and in my experience every job should go out deburred and cleaned.
I was wondering what you used to clear up all the swarf! I thought maybe.... no shut up john thats hurty speech but it tries to grow on the chin.
Ever considered shrink wrapping 😂
its a brush...
Happy hands under the hood(bonnet) . Whee.
... send that JLR engine out A.S.A.P.
Panelbond is amazing. One of the first cars to use it in "numbers" whas the 1st Lotus Elise. The alu extruded frame was bonded, not welded. According to Lotus (and I believe them) this was stornger than welding it. They went to Denmark to get the expertise to do this and since then, they have sold their experience in using it in automotive mass production to many car manufacturers.
Very true and many many manufacturers bond panels/stress bearing parts today as there's so much more surface area used than a normal weld or spot weld. A lot of body shops will use panel bond for part or patch panels as there's zero risk of warping from welding 👍
Hows your health now chap?
You seem much happier than you were.
Hmm. E30 wheels in front of the fire exit!
@@DrivermanO and no cotton wool around Issac either.
While it is the ultimate responsibility of the assembler to ensure that everything is clean, it is poor workmanship to send out something that you know is of full crap.
is that kit car still there? thought it was going
Lee, customer was just annoyed as he realised should of got you to build the whole thing. What if in transit a bit or debris of wood from the pallet fell in the stud hole.
You pay for what you get. As a trades person you check every part your fitting, including what your fitting to is clean and not going to cause an issue. It's called being due diligent
Not much "wrap" on the alternator pulley on that Cossie, is that the way they were made and do they drive ok.
...not sure if you were using that broom correctly, as I think it is a 'push' broom and not a 'push & pull' broom! your apprentice should be able to guide you? 🤔 😜 🤣
Pulling is the correct method of use, pushing results in dirt being flicked up into the room you are cleaning when you reach the end of the push stroke and the bristles return to their normal position.
You are not expected to make your blocks perfectly clean before shipping but a basic go over with the air hose to clear swarf would be entirely reasonable. Spend 5 minutes and save problems. Plus it gives you a chance to do a final check on the work. How do you know the hole packed with swarf is actually tapped to the bottom?
The scaffolding has gone ! Need a report on Barum BTS |
Cleaning the parts after machining is always the customers'/builders' responsibility, not the responsibility of the machinist. Unless the business doing the machining is doing the full build, then they're responsible for the cleaning as well.
that's the industry standard where i am as well the machinist can't guarantee the part wont sit on the shelf in some blokes garage for months and months with rats and mice running all over the job.
Nice black handprints on the door into the workshop @ 0:30 🙂
Funny isn’t it … on this explanation the majority seem to be behind you … in the previous video it was a sh*t storm of ‘you own it’ … the internet is indeed a fickle place …
Absolutely spot on
Nice haircut 💈
Hi guys, 16:30 I agree that it is the builders responsability to clean and prep before assembly..
BUT... more important...THE SCAFFOLDING HAS GONE...
Cordialement,
Specifically, in the US, those are called *push* brooms. And there you are pulling it. 😜
Pulling is the correct method of use, pushing results in dirt being flicked up into the room you are cleaning when you reach the end of the push stroke and the bristles return to their normal position.
@@Unimatrix69 Pulling results in exactly the same flick. Pulling just ensures you get dirt on yourself. It is all dependent on how much pressure you put on the broom. But it was a joke not a complaint.
I totally agree with Lee here. Either he has to do a very thorough cleaning, charge for it, and is liable, or he doesn't clean at all other than blow off some of the chips as he mentioned so they're not falling all over the place when shipping the part out.
I think it's better for a customer to be able to look at a part and clearly see that it needs to be cleaned rather than a partial clean that may cause a customer to forget and forgo a thorough cleaning.
I think it's a huge liability issue to clean and have to stand behind the cleaning on machined engine parts that go out and are assembled by someone else.
I feel that Barum needs to only concern themselves with cleaning the engines that they are building themselves where they can control the contamination.
My two cents.
👍👍
You didn't state in that specific video that your terms of contract for machining exclude cleaning. If you had then this debate would have been completely avoided.