Comparing EV Charging Networks: A Road Trip
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Have you ever wondered what it's like to take a long range EV on a road trip without using the Tesla Supercharger network? Well, wonder no more--I've saved you the trouble of trying it for yourself!
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Disclosure: The creator of this video is a Tesla owner and is long $TSLA
Alex, I own a Bolt and I found your published experience Right On. I traveled from Alexandria, VA to Louisville and back; 1300 miles. I wrote about the lessons on the trip in an article in Green Car Reports, and the experience followed yours: careful planning needed as the chargers are few and far between; slow charging at the chargers; need to charge extra to account for the unreliability of the chargers. Your solutions are fine for the industry; my solution is tied up in my reservation for a Model 3.
I do wonder just how many people, like yourself, are going to solve this problem for themselves by purchasing from Tesla before the rest of the industry can get around to figuring out long distance charging infrastructure and trip planning...
Alex , I have a friend in Holland who bought a BMW I3. He finds his I3 a delight for local driving, just as I find my Bolt EV a wonderful local car. His solution, however, for the occasional long trips is simply to rent a larger gas car for that week, or weekend. My solution was to put a garage level two charger at my brother's house, in Philadelphia, and my wife's house, in Louisville, and do the best I can with public charging. The real solution, however, comes between January and March of next year when I trade in my Bolt for my Model 3.
One other thing I noticed, in the Toronto Area (or Greater Toronto Area) that even though brand new urban chargers were installed (level-2 mainly), I see yobos in regular cars & big pickup trucks parking in reserved EV spots. There should be a system in place to get these types Towed when they do that, since there are many people counting on those chargers since they offer up to 2hrs of free charging.
Ahhh so you regret getting that piece of poorly built shit and now are going to get a real electric car(Model 3). Hope you get your Model 3 soon, I wish I could get one too.
Alex, I think this was your best Tesla video so far! Great string of conclusions at the end, too. You could not have made Tesla's advantage more clear with their supercharger network. I'm convinced to buy more Tesla stock. Thank you for making this.
Why do these non Tesla charging stations have to look as ugly as a gas station, they should put some more style into it.
The new chargepoint stations are REALLY nice, but I agree. Ick. lol
I wish I could like the video twice for that pun at the end. Well played, Alex. xD
Very enlighting video, thanks! I live in Europe and we have exactly the same problems, with an extra frustrating aspect on top of all the issues you mentioned. Over here, there are lots of borders to cross. And each country has its own charge network providers, with their own billing policies, charging cards etc. So if you travel cross-continent, you have to order a gazillion charging cards in advance etc. And of course, you have to work your way towards ordering those cards through local websites that are only available in the country's language. And I am quadrilingual, but that still is not enough for our diverse continent.
Compared to that, the Tesla Supercharger network is pure heaven: fast, clean charging, no language or provider confusion, etc. I had to buy a car at the end of last year and I very seriously considered an EV, but since Model S is out of my financial reach I would have had to go for another EV. But as you demonstrated and as I already knew, that is just not feasible. So I bought an ICE-car instead and now I cry myself to sleep every night dreaming of owning a Tesla ;)
Again: thanks for the excellent video, and lets cross our fingers that the charging problems get solved!
Hey CW, tx for your reply. I reserved my Model 3 in February ('17), so that part is covered ;)
As for electricity prices: unfortunately, I live in Belgium, which is one the most expensive countries in the EU when it comes to e-pricing. And as for CPO: because of the fiscal system in my country (that is too complex to explain in detail here), it would probably cost me more to buy a second-hand Model S than a new one.
And yes, if I were to live in a Scandinavian country, I would have been driving an EV for ages by now...
I have Bolt and MX. You are exactly correct. Purchased the MX because we had same issues you state on our Bolt. Love the Bolt, but now we limit to 100 mile radius of home.
Thanks! I'm glad it worked out great. Really enjoying your videos!
And thank you for loaning me your CHAdeMO adapter!
my only issue is, Elons stated goal is to further adoption of ev' s then he makes his charging network completely proprietary... it's disingenuous...
Remember, at the time when Tesla started designing and building out the Supercharger network, there were no finalized standards that could meet their power requirements--the rest of the industry was stuck/focused on short range EVs. Tesla has offered to open up their charging network to other manufacturers, but nobody has taken them up on it as of yet. However, rumor has it that talks between Tesla and other manufacturers have begun again.
Alex Venz I hope they work-out a deal with GM because im a Volt owner and I plan on probably being a bolt owner. The model S is way-out of my price range and by the time I'm able to get a model 3 I'll have probably finished out the lease on my Volt and finished out 1 on a bolt as well.
As you illustrate and info this video they were able to make adapters for chademo I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for Tesla to make and sell adapters for the other standards to be able to hook up to a supercharger they have some of the best engineers on the planet working for them I don't think it Would-be that complicated to make them and even set up some kind of a billing system using a mobile phone app or something so you be able to hook up to the supercharging network.
Also to add some context I live in Florida and where I live in Florida there is not much in the way of chargers especially DC fast chargers but there's about 8 super chargers within 20 MI of where I live and no level 3 chargers .
While adapters certainly would be possible, I recall hearing a rumor that one of the details Tesla was pushing for as a prerequisite for use was producing cars that could actually charge at or near full speed on the Superchargers so as not to clog up the network with slow charging cars. The current Bolt for example, based on testing that others have done, doesn't seem to charge faster than around 55kW even when connected to a high output CCS station and it tapers heavily beyond ~50% state of charge (my guess is that this is either a conservative software choice on the part of GM to prevent degradation, a cooling system limitation, some sort of density/cost/performance trade that was made when selecting a battery chemistry, or a combination of those factors).
I understand your frustration and agree that the rest of the industry really needs to get their act together when it comes to EVs because, at this point, it's safe to say that EVs aren't going away.
Wesley, if Tesla was to sell adapters, there would not even be a need for a billing system like the other chargers use. Those adapters would simply have IDs just like any Tesla has and be billed to the owner the same way.
Which is, btw, how all chargers should be set up. Register the car's ID and a way of payment with the network and then just plug+charge.
Wesley Magyar wouldn’t the Bolt be out of your price range if the model 3 is “way” out of your price range? The base Bolt costs more than the base M3
I've owned a Model S for a number of years and live in Oregon. The first week we got our Model S, we went on a road trip to the Oregon coast, and there were no Superchargers. We relied on the Aerovironment AV network of Chademo stations set up as the "West Coast Electric Highway", an Oregon/Washington joint effort, and designed around the Nissan Leaf. This network offers pretty good coverage in Oregon and Washington, so that's really helpful, and in fact, on one particular trip I take often, I prefer to use the AV station instead of the Supercharger mainly because the AV station is in a downtown close to restaurants, where the Supercharger is a 30 mile detour with limited food options. While the Chademo adapter thing makes it possible, it is clunky and sometimes problematic in connecting. At the time, I was just happy it worked at all.
But yeah, the Supercharger network is just awesome in how well it works, how well its implemented and how easy it is to use. Tesla has set the bar so high for long distance EV travel that the other companies haven't even seen where it is, let alone be able to compete with it.
Great video. I am considering a Bolt EV but will have to watch closely how the network develops and matures over the next two years.
Very helpful video thanks! I've been considering purchasing an EV soon. Either a Smart ED for commuting and keeping my current car for longer trips, or trading in for a 2018 Leaf when it comes out. This video is making me think of leasing a commuter for now and keeping my old car until the model 3 comes out.
I know VOLSWAGEN is gonna invest a Billion dollars in Charging Infrastructure Along the major Hwys Due to the Diesel Scandal,that could help alot once the get stared
R yea but a billion dollars where, they could spend 750M in Europe and only 250M in the US, I mean either way it’s good for everyone I gues
Excellent analysis based on real world testing. Keep up the good work. Go Tesla
Renault Fluence was an EV in Europe about 5 years ago with Project Better Place, they had battery swap networks built out for example in Denmark, you could just drive into the battery swap station and swap for a fully charged battery in 1 minute. Tesla and competitors to Tesla definitely need this I think. While Tesla's supercharging network is an ok thing, it's still lame to have to sit around and wait half an hour or more to charge your car. I think battery swapping and super chargers is the only system that makes sense. And Elon Musk has shown 1-minute battery swap on the Model S, I really wonder why Tesla has given up on that idea. Tesla's competitors definitely need to get onto implementing industry standard 1-minute battery swapping.
I just commented on an InsideEvs.com article this morning. It was slightly off topic there but way more on topic here. Here's my thoughts on where non-Tesla charging networks are going. I'm not happy at all with the direction. I'll copy the post here with some things added, then add a few more comments on a Wisconsin example of fast charging in the winter. It's lengthy.
***
I wish some other companies had already figured out a successful business model to sell energy at fair rates.
1. No monthly charges whether you use their service or not.
2. No meaningless $5 base charge incurred whether you fill up or just top off.
3. No fill up time limit, forcing you into another base charge to start another refueling session.
4. No special cards, signup processes or membership tokens needed. Just a credit card.
5. No chance someone will park long term in the charging spot.
6. Other services available like air, vacuums, parts.
7. You only pay for the energy you receive, not how long the car is connected to the cord. Temp and flow rates do not affect your final bill.
8. Extremely little profit applied to energy charges. 1-9% markup at most. Profit comes from an attached convenience mart/restaurant. Electricity costs 10-12 cents a kwh most places but L3 chargers are charging 20-60 cents a kwh. 200-500% markup.
9. Chargers are maintained regularly. Attendants are available to help with issues and backup chargers are available to cover for disabled units.
Oh wait. Gas stations already figured that out.
I cringe at all this debate trying to figure out what already has been figured out by other industries. Utlities need to allow kwh charges nationwide. Time-based charges are usueless in the cold north where charge rates can go from 45 kwh down to 8 kwh easily. Gas station chains that already offer chargers but through existing EV charge providers using these hopefully soon to be obsolete business practices need to go it in their own with EV charging. They have a better business model. I've seen some Maryland gas stations around Ocean City start to offer L3 charging, except through an 3rd party EV charging network. Meaning it has all the usual membership fees and other bad ideas.
One example why current business model of Chademo/CCS chargers just does not work. Wisconsin Winter, an actual example from me and my 2015 Leaf about 12 weeks ago in January. Temperature was 0F. It can get a lot colder here too and the math is even worse then. I pulled up to one of the 3 Evgo chargers in Madison, WI. There are NO L3 outside of Madison, except in Milwaukee. We are L3 no mans land here. First card swipe. Nothing. It's 0F and windy mind you. I had to call. 15 minutes later charger was working. Amps were 19. Meaning it was charging at about 8000 watts. Low battery temps cause this. If I turned the heat on in the car charger amps went to 22 but the car effectively stopped charging because the Leaf heater consumes 8000-9000 watts. So I sat there in the cold for 30 minutes and charged barely faster than my 6000 watt L2 charger I have at home. To charger faster in this weather you need a bigger battery like the Tesla or Bolt has. Active thermal management would help too. Leaf battery is air-cooled. Not good. A 24kwh Leaf battery is too small. Note: In 70 degree weather 45,000 watt charge rates are attainable. In the end I paid $4.95 base plus 6 bucks or $11 for the 30 minutes of charging to get maybe 5-6 kwh that would have cost me 70 cents at home.
Anyway I see 2 successful business models. 1. Tesla's. Charge a big old fee buried in the car price, or the FAIR rates, no monthly membership, they are proposing for the Model 3 that account for flow rates changing by battery size and weather. They could extend this to a network of CCS/Chademo credit card activated chargers too. Great idea! 2. Energy companies develop their own EV charging system and place chargers at gas stations. Cut out the middlemen that would like to force use to have memberships, not maintain their chargers as much, and markup electricity by 300-500%.
do it!
Remember these are at best compliance cars they are FORCED to make them. The Leaf is a joke. GM shows what the capability was before it came out with the Bolt. Sure it has a little better cabin luxury but where it counts it sucks. So too, all the other dichotomy ICE manufacturers. I am a ride-share driver and love my Bolt every time I get in it on a 6,000 foot mountain charging all the way down ( almost 20 miles) at getting an extra 58 miles of range and commanding the freeways and getting around dangerous inconsiderate drivers. And watching movies while I am charging at 10 cents per minute.
I drive a Bolt now in California. I am well aware of the poor state of the DCFC charging infrastructure for the Bolt EV. If I could I'd get a Tesla but, my lease was up and I needed a car now. The Bolt EV is great around town and I don't have a strong need for long distance driving. The farthest I've driven in a single day was 100 miles. So, although fast charging is not great it's not a deal breaker. It's nice knowing I can drive 100 miles in a single day and still have some left over in case of emergencies.
VW's upcoming network is going to make a pretty good positive dent for CCS/CHaDeMo users for long-distance travel. It is a bootstrapping problem, of course, but don't forget that you already paid a lot extra for your positive experience with Tesla Supercharging.
thanks this is good stuff to know. are the chargepoint DCfast any better than EVGO?
As I recall, there are Chargepoint DC fast chargers and Chargepoint is generally less expensive than EVgo... but, at least around here, there don't seem to be many in locations conducive to long distance travel.
I really enjoy your videos. Great info. Situation here in FL is pretty bad for non-Tesla owners. Fortunately, I watched a video about the Jaguar I-Pace and similar problems with public charging before I bought it.
Also, very interesting to see News Columb’s post, not sure why both your experiences diverge. My very limited observations, public chargers mostly look like crap, usually only a couple at a given location, low charge rates, and often at least 1 doesn’t work. Much more often than not, there is no one at the Tesla Supercharger in Port Orange, FL even though it is right off I-95.
excellent education
12:25 yes, the majestic tessla supercharger in it's natural habitat.
Alex, interesting video. You mentioned that hopefully there will someday be more and better EV Charging station along major highways like I-5. Well I am a Program Manager for Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) here in Northern California. We have started a program to install 7,500 charging station over the next 2 years. The charging station are subsidized to property owners who have space for a minimum of 10 Stations. Clients would include multi family properties, hotels, motels, and business center. The problem we have is getting the word out that this program is available. You mentioned lots of roadside stand-a-lone stations where you travel. This program was created by the State of California in order to encourage EV use. PG&E is the largest Electric Utility in the state. Have you heard of other states with similar programs?
Living in the UK we have similar but lesser problems.
But:
Everywhere is closer, just because its a smaller country.
We have CCS/Chademo chargers at every Motorway Services, spaced about 20-30 miles apart - some are closer. This makes planning easier.
There is a bit of a monopoly so prices are high but known, 30 min charge is £6.($7.75)
Some free chargers or low cost chargers are available just off motorways, and us cheapskates will plan around them!
Very informative. Thank you very much. Yes to Tesla
In thinking of building rural, expensive infrastructure, the best way to do it is with a Crown Corporation. Saskatchewan built telephone, power, and natural gas infrastructure this way. EV charging could be built the same way, or possibly with a Co-operative like the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool was done with Canadian Pacific and Canadian National railway companies.
nice video! wife and I got through the first ten minutes of it while ...DC charging our Leaf! .10 cents a minute on evgo is becoming more practical now that we have the on the go plan.(will watch the rest later)
Thanks! One of the reasons I provided the charging time and session count for the trip at the end of the video was so that people could calculate the costs with EVgo's various different plans. I went with the no-recurring-cost plan since I really don't see myself using their service particularly often, aside from this trip.
Just finished it. Great report, your feeling about the entire situation align with reality perfectly. Seeing the speeds with my leaf and what people are reporting w their Tesla's, there is little to no comparison. The model 3 is going to cripple the supercharging network but it will end well I'm sure. Home is where the charge is. Man, let's make some stickers that say that huh? I gotta dust off the vinyl cutter... since I moved to the evgo on the go plan, I have opened an entirely different way of using my leaf and am loving it, now let's
just hope they don't a mess up the billing.The plugception thing at the end was great! Keep up the good work man!
That could be a really cool sticker... like a stylized house with a plug coming off it or something (too bad I'm not much of a graphics guy)?
Thanks for explaining the true difference between Teslas and other EVs. Good job!
I never suspected it would be that expensive. Preciate the review!
Right now, the only practical options in the US seem to be Tesla or a PHEV. I went with a PHEV because I needed a car now and the Model 3 wouldn't be available for a couple years. Hopefully, by the time I'm ready to replace my PHEV everything will be sorted out.
One key point you're missing though -- EV's themselves such as the Bolt cannot accept much higher than 50 kW at the moment. With smaller battery packs come slower charging rates. According to GM, the bolt is limited to a charging rate of "90 miles in 30 minutes", or "80% in 1 hour" (which nominally works out to about 50 kW) due to heat generation and charge acceptance of the battery pack
I consider that to be part of the chicken-or-egg situation I was describing. Regardless of what the charging limitations of short range EVs are or whether or not GM gimped the Bolt, charging at 50kW or less is wildly impractical for long distance driving. Capital investment to support today's limitations in a rapidly changing market is a bit shortsighted and it's not like EVs that'll accept higher charge rates are part of some nebulous future... the Model S can do it and it was introduced in 2012.
Thank you for your informative report. It has been very helpful. Good luck.
Yours truly, Saleh
I think it would be fun taking a trip with stops in parking lots and spend time sitting there eating a sandwich and drinking a coke , checking out the different cars in the parking lot , only way to travel
Thank you for posting this. You just convinced me not to get the Hyundai Kona and wait for my delayed Model 3.
I heard Tesla was going to allow others to utilize the supercharger network via the sale of smart plug adapters thast would communicate with the other cars and the network and allow them to buy charges at the same rate as native Teslas.
In an ICE car you can do the trip even faster :-) But 6:15 is not too bad. And you showed that peak demand at the supercharger can be an issue.
Really well done, Alex! Your trip up CA99 was unbearable to watch, even quickly. At least you were in your comfortable Model S, as opposed to the BOLT's seats, which I was not comfortable in after only about five minutes.
Mitchell Barnow really? I find the bolt seats to be pretty comfortable
Dude... so true... we got the same problem in Europe... At some places the price per kw is higher compared to gasoline (calculaed per mile). They already start to complaining about tesla "why they don't share the superchargers to public" But they are not able to build a solid network by them self. Nooo we just do a few overpriced chargeing stations, out in nowhere, and complaining why EVs are not ready now. How ever.. lets see what the future brings
Always great info!
This is exactly the reason why around here (I live in Germany) EV sales do not really pick up. Tesla is (still, until Model 3 arrives) too expensive for most people (plus the charging network is not yet as extensive so you'd really have to be careful when planning trips, and in many parts of Germany you'd simply be SOL because no superchargers are around) and other EV have this long range charging problem. It will also be interesting to see how Tesla will be able to cope with thousands of new (Model 3) owners clogging up the superchargers. For some time, many locations will probably have quite long queues, even with non-free charging. Also interesting will be how fast Porsche (VW) will be able to roll out their planned charging network for their next-gen EV, which they say will be twice as fast as the Tesla superchargers. If any manufacturer in Europe will be able to do something like that, it's the VW group due to sheeer size. electrek.co/2016/10/03/porsches-ultra-fast-charging-infrastructure-for-the-mission-e-will-also-work-with-tesla-says-ceo/
Tesla should allow non-Tesla EV owners to charge for a fee. This will allow Tesla to recoup building fees in addition to gaining a regular revenue stream. Other auto manufacturers are not looking to help Tesla as their ICE auto revenues will plummet. I have spoken with other EV owners who often say that they are amazed at the benefits of owning an EV. Thanks for video Alex.
Elon has said in the past he is not opposed to manufacturers licensing out the super charger tech so they can interface with them but so far none have approached him with an realistic offer.
Didn't Elon say he would give away his patents for free? He's full of shit.
I would guess, that going from 40 kW to 75 kW was because you became the primary connection on a dual A/B station.
Yeah, Tesla has changed the way pairing works a couple times and this way my first time experiencing it after changes were made (they appear to have moved to more of a FIFO approach, whereas it seemed more balanced before... the change makes sense, but was a little weird based on past experience).
ChaDeMo end is actually a socket :)
You keep your distance - good :)
I decided to take the plunge and buy a bolt. I live in atlantic canada where the superchargers dont exist so i know there will be growing pains but i assume the more there are electric cars on tje roads, the more charging stations are going to pop up.
Chevrolet came out with an update to their mychevrolet app where they add a trip planner. I think it is called energy assist. It is not the integrated system tesla has but since most of my driving is done well within the bolt's range, i am happy to have the option availaible for 100k less.
Leaf owner here, the 50 KwH ChaDeMo network charges most leafs 80% in under 30 minutes, grant it they only go about 80 miles. Also the rates you were paying cost a heck of a lot more than what most EV owners pay. Between programs like Nissan's no charge to charge and highly discounted rates ( about half that of normal EvGo rates ) it's quiet a bit cheaper.
Keep in mind also Leaf's are also quiet a bit cheaper and the network for both Tesla's and other EV's are constantly growing. There currently is nothing that rivals the speed of the Tesla Supercharge network and quiet frankly I hate that Tesla has them locked all to them selves. While I will likely get a Model 3 as my next car I think chargers on public property should be open for everyone to use. If Tesla can come out with a ChaDeMo to Tesla adapter I don't see why the opposite does not exist.
open Supercharger to other brand? It's come down to money. You see charging cost money while Tesla car owner already paid it when they brought the car. The other car did not.
If other want to use supercharger, they (Other car manufacturer) have to pay Tesla a usage fee.
from tech stand point it is possible with adapter but in business sense it's not gonna happen. To them, Tesla is competitor/rival. By give Tesla a money. Tesla will expand more control over the nationwide charging network and eventually, Supercharger will prevail over other charging network (at least in the eye of customer) and make Tesla brand even stronger = Tesla win big time.
Why not just charge a fee like they do for new Teslas? Sell an adapter for $100 or so, then charge a usage fee. Only people who would be unhappy are current Tesla owners who would have to wait when other cars are in the ports. Currently there are other adapters now that allow other EV's to use the Tesla UMC charger
Excellent video
This is a perfect example of why the non-Tesla networks need to significantly upgrade to make EVs mainstream. www.carswithcords.net/2017/04/ev-charging-experience-only-tesla-has.html
If a person bought one of the non-Tesla plug adapters, how much is the cost? Would have been interesting to see the difference in time and cost if there had been a 2nd person in a gas car. Based on what I recall, it was 650? miles? gas car at 30 MPG round off to 32 gallons at $3 ? per gallon would be $66 for the trip. How much less time would it have taken with a gas car and 2 stops for gas?
Alex my friend. The DC fast charging in California sucks as you learned. I live in Oregon where they have the west coast electric highway. The company's name is Aerovironment and I drive a Leaf so I can't tell you exactly how fast it's charging. Aerovirnment has two ways to pay $4.50 for stage 2 $7.50 for 3. or $20 a month unlimited charging which I use when I travel. I haven't done a lot of cross country, but when I do there is never a wait and the chargers are always working. For what it's worth Mike
Yeah, AV's pricing isn't bad but they're still running 50kW CHAdeMO only on the L3 end of things, right? Have they mentioned anything about plans for upgrading their network for longer range EVs? I'm not trying to put you on the spot here or anything, just curious since you live in AV's service area.
My leaf is a 2011 with a 3kw charger so it wouldn't help me much my car. would be the weak link in the chain
I haven't heard anything about an upgrade. What they have is seldom used so I doubt it. At least in the near future
I also own a Bolt EV, and my experiences are a bit different. I only spend about 1 hour and 45 minutes charging for a 500-mile trip along the same route. I'm not too far away from you. Maybe one of these days, we can do a Bolt EV versus Model S "challenge." It could be interesting.
I think that would make for a fun comparison! Though, it may be best to wait for more CCS infrastructure rollout along I-5 since it's the more practical and common route between SoCal and the SF Bay Area.
Well, either way. I'm always driving around. :-) I do go up to San Jose occasionally, but it's not a regular trip for me.
I think your video is great, but as an experienced Bolt EV owner who has driven that route a lot, it doesn't reflect my experiences (both range and charging). I think a Bolt EV up Highway 99 might be closer to a Tesla up I-5 than it appears on the surface. Of course, I won't argue with fast CCS on I-5. :D
I think Alex hasn't factored in the better efficiency of the Bolt (being lighter) versus Model S, so the bolt will go further on a given charge time than the Model S.
What's your opinion on the theory that GM and the oil & gas industry is deliberately trying to slow the adoption of EVs by giving you the experience you had? They dragging their heels and buying politicians to "not favor one type of transportation", aren't they?
You're probably right. But we need proof. I know the car industry here in Michigan lobbied the local government to create laws which prevented Tesla from selling their cars here. So if I wanted to get a Tesla, I'd need to drive to Ohio.
Mdude, no you don't. Just order one. It can be shipped to you.
If only Tesla could produce more cars more efficiently, as promised, so that more people could enjoy the supercharger network affordably. Also, I agree with other commenters who wonder why standardization is such a big deal with EV charging. 3 different connections for fast charging - really? And how many charging networks are doing basically the same thing in different ways? Standardization, convenience and some attention to the user experience for public charging might help EVs to cross the chasm into mainstream adoption. I would love to see that happen.
Great video
I just don't get it. How you could design a charging system like that. I agree with you. Or we can face it and admit it's going to be a Tesla world.
At 6:27 I spotted a 'very' rare Dodge Challenger in the 'Furious Fuschia' color combo....
Kimono Skunk and much cooler then a stupid ev, with the 5.7 hemi I get 25 mpg high way would cost me like 75 bucks so 25 bucks more expensive. Every ev owner is dumb no absolute way to justify it unless your dream is to have a car propelled by an electric motor and your fascinated by that more then a gasoline engin.
i have a Model S, and there is no doubt the Supercharger network is better than all the other networks combined. I've used other networks, but only as a way to give myself options. The other networks are expensive, compared to Tesla (though for me the superchargers are free), and somewhat unreliable. Its not uncommon to find Chargepoint locations, but many times they don't work, and look like they haven't in ages.
Well, if you PAY thirty thousand dollars more for a car that has about the same range, I would currently hope it would be a better trip.
The new 2019 Leaf is allegedly going to have 100kw charging speed. Are you saying that they'll never acheive that on the Chademo network?
The CHAdeMO standard was amended to allow for up to 150kW charging, so it's not that the standard can't do it. Most of my concerns here are with the way in which infrastructure is being expanded and the slow pace of expansion. Remember, the vast majority of existing CHAdeMO stations in the US top out at 50kW and will have to be replaced/upgraded to accommodate faster charging. The VW settlement should go a long way toward helping with infrastructure rollout, though, especially along highways.
as it stands there is a big difference if 1 tesla is charging or 10 teslas are charging. I've never seen more than 2 cars at a Chademo but the same thing probably applies. Will they improve the infrastructure to eliminate that anytime soon? Ya think?
Painful to watch ! Slow charge uuhhgg .... I'm in NY upstate I only use my Toyota RAV4 EV for around town! I still have a gas car for trips ! But NY is putting 4.8 million $ into new charger stations state wide this year !! Hope it helps improve chargers here.
I've wondered why EV manufacturers have not negotiated with tesla about adopting and incorporating supercharger compatibility into their cars. After all Elon Musk has open sourced tesla patents. So it seems to me that he would be more than willing to share the supercharger system with EV cars such as the Bolt. Is this corporate hubris or is tesla not willing to share their superchargers.
I cannot imagine Elon allowing other cars to use their network until the impact of the large numbers of Model 3s coming to market is fully known. Can you imagine the outcry from Tesla owners if supercharger stations become clogged with non-Teslas. They are building out more supercharging station all the time in anticipation of model 3 impact. They would be fools to open the door when many superchargers are full at peak times now. Tesla has to be loyal to its own customers first. So--non-Tesla owners like myself need to be realistic. That is why I’m trading in my i3 this week. Love the car. Hate the range.
video so good i just had to SUB! btw are tesla chargers free to use ?
nvm just found out towarfds the end of the video
Many Teslas were sold with free unlimited lifetime Supercharging. In fact, the referral code promotion for that ends today and changes over to a $100 Supercharging credit. That said, the cost to charge if you don't have free charging varies depending on the region you're charging in and all of the rates can be found on Tesla's site here: www.tesla.com/support/supercharging
unrelated question- what do you think about tesla ride share profitability with and without autopilot? I wonder if renting it out would be a doable thing, where say someone could go on the app and find close teslas with matching availability schedules, and either go to a designated pick up location like a supercharger/ or from wherever its parked. like a distributed Avis.
Then when AP gets good enough to start going point to point and then better and better, thats a mechanical turk taxi.
I don't think that I'm well versed enough in the potential economics of ride sharing business models to have a meaningful opinion. This is very much a wait and see sort of thing for me.
My car currently gets 21-27miles/gallon as I have a fairly efficient car and very efficient for 2007. If you go 360 miles that's on average 15Gallons of gas. Gas for me is cheap as I'm in NewJersey and we actually have people pump our gas so it can be taxed more so it's not too cheap. About $2.35 a gallon currently at my near by Wawa. That's roughly $35.25 for the trip in gas. The CCS cost nearly $50, that's more expensive per mile of range currently. I agree 100% with EV charging being better as it does have many more benefits to it. Tesla is cheaper per watt making the cost actually 1/3 that of my gas car and the other benifits. The thing that actually bothered me most was how ugly CCS looked.
This is just something I caught.
Iv'e read that the Chevrolet BOLT's battery can only take 30 minutes of CCS charging at a time. Is this true, or something like it? This trip would take even longer, presuming that Volkswagen's money has built a nationwide network of CCS chargers.
+Mitchell Barnow That's not a piece of information I've encountered... Most of the DC fast charge stations are limited to 30 minute sessions, if that's what you mean (and is something I had to deal with in this video). I have encountered reports from Bolt owners talking about initiating multiple charging sessions to get the energy they need, as I did here, but nothing about CCS charging duration limitations being built into the car itself. I'll have to look into it.
Thank you Alex, I think that I misinterpreted the information.
Alex: How dare you cheat!!!!!!!!!! If I was an analyst for a large Wall Street firm (left unnamed) instead of simply a managing principle at a regional firm, I would have to have called foul. We know that Tesla won't ever become more than a fad (although the market cap exceeded Nissan, Ford and more recently GM).Thank goodness I have free super charging. I'm still waiting for GM to install that gasoline pump at my house so that i don't have to go to a gas station for my ICE vehicles. Where are the charging stations from GM, Ford, Mercedez, Volkswagon, etc etc etc?
Let's face it, Mr Musk has the foresight, ambition, and enthusiasm to get the project not only started, but completed as well. I can barely wait until the solar roof tiles are available so that i can have them installed on my new house (which they should be available when my house is at that stage)
Great video, great comparison, great analysis.
Its been almost 3 yrs since this video and trip in it was performed, is it still the same with the CCS / CHAdeMO network? How about the usage of Tesla Network along the same route?
The settlement over VW group's diesel emissions cheating which created Electrify America has resulted in a fair amount of CCS/CHAdeMO infrastructure build-out that would improve the experience along the Highway 99 route and make the I-5 route possible (it wasn't when the video was recorded). That said, while the I-5 route is now possible, the low quantity of charging stations means that total capacity is limited but I'm sure this will improve given more time. There are presently 33 CCS stations and 20 CHAdeMO stations spread across 10 sites along the route, though many are only 50kW. The 16 Electrify America CCS plugs along the route are the exception on the charging speed front, offering stations that can provide up to 140-200kW for 400V cars.
On the Tesla side of things, they've continued expanding infrastructure and increasing charging speeds. There are now about 150 stations spread across 8 Supercharger sites along the I-5 return route I took, each capable of delivering up to 150kW (and the Supercharger v3 upgrade process has already begun at the large Kettleman City site, which should eventually deliver up to 250kW). The only time I've encountered a brief wait recently was during peak holiday travel and, even then, it only took about 5-10 minutes for a charging spot to open up (there were lines for gasoline nearby with similar wait times).
A while back, Musk tweeted that once to 100 kW charging became commonplace, Tesla would begin opening superchargers up to other vehicles. I assume that would be with additional installations, or adapters. In some EU countries, Tesla is now required to provide CCS charging at superchargers.
$49 ???? Is that actually more expensive than petrol/diesel?
Yeah, it is. That said, EVgo does have payment plans which reduce the cost of charging, but those plans have monthly subscription fees and an early termination fee... so it doesn't make sense for someone like me who pretty much never uses their network to sign up for said plans. If one were to use their network a lot, then their other plans would reduce the cost of charging significantly (but it would still cost more than home charging or using Tesla's Supercharger network, depending on how many charging sessions you could spread the monthly EVgo fee across).
Which trip planning app do you like the most, EVtrip planner, better route planner, EVtripping? Do you have a preference?
I don't really have a preference, but it has been fun to play with the cost estimation feature in A Better Route Planer.
I know its not right but have you tried charging it with a gas generator?
I have not personally tried that, but I know it's possible. To charge at any remotely reasonable speed, though, you'd need something like a 5kW 240VAC generator.
Alex Venz that's what I was thinking too, a high output generator.
How much would it have cost for GAS if ice
+Nigel Weir Probably about $41, assuming 30mpg in something comparable to the Model S (so, a BMW 540i or the like). Taking the trip in a base model Prius would be about $23, assuming 50mpg.
Why no CCS love for I-5?
+dlwatib Most of the current infrastructure is built out for short range EVs, so the charging stations tend to hug populated areas. As far as I'm aware, an I-5 build out is part of VW's CARB mandated EV charging plan but it may be a year or more before it's completed.
good job.........;-))
Wow!. Liked that. Tesla=Pampered Drive. So are you not hearing in the local or State news about Volkswagen Investment in new charging infrastructure for California ? I thought Electrek reported that they (VW) were starting this in February 2017.
You mean the infrastructure spending that's part of VW's agreement with CARB over their diesel scandal? Yeah, I'm aware but not much seems to have happened on that front yet. Aside from the forced VW spending in CA not really seeming like the larger answer to the problem, I decided to take a 'snapshot in time' approach with the video--too much will change within the next 10 years or so for me to feel all that comfortable with extrapolating my experience out, so I stuck with the simple 'it's bad now, but will get better once more money is thrown at it' conclusion. The next few years will certainly be interesting.
need more chargers outside of towns on highways..right now seems putting up chargers were thier not needed ..were i live i can drive to 5 charge points in town which are not needed i can charge at home i am close to city would make no sence to just stop thier and top off ?
Well, Here is my answer.
electrek.co/2017/04/14/vw-nationwide-150-kw-fast-charging-network-electric-vehicle/
Saw that earlier today and, yeah, it should go a long way toward fixing the current infrastructure problems but, as I mention in the video, it'll take time. Ultimately, the 'snapshot in time' approach I took here just means that I'll have to revisit the topic as these projects get rolling and infrastructure improves. :)
Good vid , no different to outside US , imagine free 22kw charging every where with >5% 50dc or 43ac , no tesla superchargers , only to be 8 max in country , no competition for free crap service , long range lottery, welcome to Ireland north and south , tesla 2018 sales model 3 earliest , model s,x available UK mainland only and other ev token sales, leaf exception though dated, and charging network for it crap, ps 16000 free , no sign of charging , so not all bad, tesla need model 5 European mini car , S and X not great on winding small roads, don't fit parking spaces
Actually it is "chow-chill-ah."
It's the prevalence of Spanish city names and the double 'L' that was getting me--thanks :-)
I grew up in California so I totally understand the assumption!
Now compare it with gas cars.
Well from a trip time standpoint, the best case (Tesla) took about 15% longer than is typical in a conventional gasoline powered vehicle and the worst case (charging via 50kW CCS) took about 70% longer than is typical in a conventional ICE car. Cost comparison is a little less clear cut because it depends on which car you're comparing to, what the price of gas is locally (it's higher in California than most of the rest of the USA), and which CCS charging plans you're comparing to. Charging via the Tesla Supercharger network on the other hand, even if you don't have a car that's covered by the old unlimited lifetime charging deal, still ends up being cheaper than gasoline in California.
just get Tesla in the UK
I loath EVGo
I would not buy a tesla mostly because 99% of all tesla owners badmouth all other EV i don't want to be like that.
While there are some Tesla owners who universally look down on anyone who owns something other than a Tesla (there’s a percentage of iPhone users who have this same mentality), it’s just a car to the majority of owners. Granted, it hasn’t helped that some of the other manufacturers have dumped a few deeply flawed EVs on the market over the past decade or so. That, however, is changing pretty rapidly.
@@AlexVenz I agree with your i phone comment. I don't own an iPhone ;) but you are right were all allowed a preference.
I like your videos, but you brutally mispronounce names of towns. De-lane-o; Chow- chill-a.
To be fair, I've never heard either of the names pronounced. My assumption was that Chowchilla was a spanish adaptation of the name of the native tribe the area is named after, but our inconsistent application of spanish language sounds in english meant that I didn't know whether to apply the spanish double consonant sound.
So we have waited a century for electric cars. How many more years do we have to wait until they become practical?
+cinema writer
Buy me a Tesla and I will be very happy to drive it.
I hate youtube music.
+nerdful1 Does stuff published through Monstercat really count as "RUclips music?"
RUclips stuff sounds like backwards music tracks and chipmunks.
Video was great though. S owner.
Do something about that noise you call music.
Bit of constructive criticism here but i think you should back your face away from the camera by about 6 inches. Kind of unsettling seeing every hair and detail on your face.
Most of us like reality better than the fakeness transmitted from Hollywood and Washington District of Columbia.
This is like the HD porn problem. "Oh, oh god. Too much detail! Bring back SD! No like! No like! Resolution bad!"
as i said ! battery ev are a joke !