Moving the magnifier will change Point of Impact?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- In this video we answer a simple question - will moving your magnifier change the point of impact?
The thing is that you can change the point of impact by looking through your optic from a different angle - this happens because of parallax. And yes, reddots also have a noticeable parallax despite the manufacturers claims of being parallax-free.
It seems that moving a magnifier doesn't change the angle of view through the reddot enough to cause a parallax and shift of point of impact.
I would say that's good result.
Now you know that a shifting magnifier will not affect the accuracy of your zeroed rifle.
Official Store: polenartactica...
Patreon: / polenartactical
Instagram: / polenartactical
Sellier&Bellot is one of the oldest ammo manufacturers in Europe. They produce high quality ammunition and we are proud to have them as a main sponsor for this channel.
FB: / sellierbellotammunition
IG: / sellier_bellot_official
My understanding is that the magnifier moving would change POI if there was bad paralax on the red dot. Just like moving your head around would change the impact. You could likely test this with a pistol red dot or early gen MRO or something that has bad paralax. If you use an optic with little or no paralax there should be no change. Easier to see the POI change at distance.
Most modern reddots have parallax - it's minimal but it is there. Short and small body optics have a way worse parallax but even for those you have to move your head a couple of inches out of a normal aiming line to get a noticeable POI because of the parallax
even late gen MROs have the same issue, the MRO HD doesn't though
T-REX did a video a few days ago that slows parallax patterns for a bunch of red dots. Good stuff.
@@DTex.45ACPI've never watched T-REX's content, but I'm heading there right now to check this video out 🙂👍
Also, as a Site Engineer and Land Surveyor for 25yrs using Leica Theodolites/EDMs up to 32x magnification (which utilise a cross-hair reticle very similar in design, principle and use) to a very high standard of accuracy indeed (easily inside the top 0.5% of my Industry, but I was trained by Andy Wetheralt, the Engineer who made the two ends of the Channel Tunnel between England and France meet-up with an "error" of only 240mm over 29.5km... 😳 With no Line-Of-Sight until that French guy ceremonially busted-through the last 50mm/2" of rock with a hammer and chisel... 😯) over distances up to 1000m (which I achieved by taking a minimum of 5 "shots" per target and then averaging-out those 5 readings, ie using the shooting techniques taught to me by the British Army as a young man to achieve significantly greater accuracy in my work, unlike my peers...), as long as the Parallax Error is 100% eliminated at the cross-hairs then varying the magnification should *theoretically* have zero effect on the POA unless caused by heat-shimmer or atmospheric conditions over longer distances 😁👍
But as a 'Subject', rather than a Citizen 🙄, of the UK, I can only apply those shooting techniques to
This concern comes up all the time in conversations about magnifiers. I've never been able to reproduce the issue, using modern, quality red dots like the Aimpoint T2, MRO HD, or SIG Romeo 4/8. I wonder if it's an old problem from dots like the Aimpoint T1 that had really bad parallax.
If you're talking about the shift of POI while using a reddot with or without the magnifier, that can happen for a couple of reasons that i have seen.
First one that i suspect is very common is astigmatism. It distorts your image of the dot but a magnifier corrects it to some degree giving you a better, clearly defined aiming point.
So for example if you zero with a magnifier and then shoot for groupings without it, there can be a noticable POI shift.
That happened to me and the shift went away when i shot the same rifle/dot combo with correction lenses.
@@PolenarTacticalI just use the center of the blob lol. However my astigmatism is mitigated with proper hydration for the most part.
I've always thought any deviation between my magnifier and RDS is because I can aim more consistently/accurately with the magnifier than without. Thanks for confirming it.
If the grouping only spreads or tightens, then it's aiming more consistently. But if you have an actual POI change, then there can be a couple of reasons. One could be astigmatism as viewing the reddot directly will cause it to distort but a magnified optic will correct that distortion to some degree, that's why people also see the dots more clearly/less fuzzy through the magnifiers
@@PolenarTacticalI swear, I read "reddot" as Reddit lol
@@PolenarTactical Thank you - I have astigmatism so this makes a lot of sense.
@@DagaYuteyeah, me too, i'm speaking from experience 😆
Or get a prismatic sight. I have astigmatism and use the Primary Arms SLx 1x MicroPrism. It has an amazing reticle. MSRP is $270 but can be had for less. Really an excellent deal. The ACSS reticle takes some getting used to, but once you’ve practiced (as you should with everything) it’s phenomenal.
But what effect will A.I. have on point of impact?
It will make it in a shape of boobs
@@PolenarTacticalI bow before our new AI overlords. Mankind simply can't compete.
Very educational my man! I definitely learned something new today.
I’m tapping in from San Diego, California!
I subscribed! 👍🏾
Thanks and welcome to the channel!
I took a flat end mill bit and thin neodymium magnet with some JB weld to fix the wobble/moving on one of my cheap magnifiers. It held up until I could afford a better setup - LPVO
This is part of the reason why magnifiers are such a nice system. You can take it off and use it for a myriad of things where you don't want to point a rifle at something, and you have almost no problems with zero shift when it's reattached. Trying to look out your apartment window at a cat on the street, but don't want to point a rifle at your neighbors? No problem! Just grab your magnifier.
They really are versatile
Yeah! Or you know... pick up a binocular for that exact purpose lol. Or even a camera with good digital zoom.
I have a Mepro MOR and a Mepro 3x magnifier that I figured this out with. As long as your zero is good on the optic, the magnifier can be moved without fear of zero loss. Love these informational videos you guys make!
As one with near vision that is no where what it once was... I recommend you investigate low power reading glasses or visit your optometrist for a recommendation as to the very least amount of "correction" that will allow you to see the reticule and target with the best clarity possible.
Magnifier does add some parallax to the system. But magnifiers are only 3x, dots are relatively big and such small movements are not a big issue. However, those turrets on magnifiers are there for a reason. Magnifiers do need to be zeroed (or at least checked if they have the same point of impact as your red dot). Some combinations of magnifiers, red dots and mounts can have some POI shift.
In line with my observations as well. Tried a magnifier with both a red dot and prism without any impact shift noticed.
Nice Helikon Tex runners jacket, love mine!
What you demonstrated was something I noticed when trying to shoot with a magnifier and switching from a normal 1x dot to a magnified view. I always end up turning down the brightness of my dot whenever I have the magnifier in position because it was ever so slightly bloom and the brightness is overexaggerated now, turn the brightness down and then it's still bright but the dot now appears more precise/"small" without the blooming.
Thanks for explanation. One thought: if the magnifier has such loose by design...its not good magnifier.
Just a comment for the algorithm.
This guys voice is addicting to listen to lol.
never heard this one before but i'll take it 😀
What about having the eye out of eye relief range? I have my magnifier far back, but still if I don't stick the head close to it to see clearly on the sides i think I miss more than when I focus on the sides and push the head further.
@@Shimitzu if you put your head further from the magnifier but the image is still centered, that should be ok. There could be an issue/distortion if you move your head out of the normal viewing angle and aim at the corners of the optic
Good to know.
Remember kids, "fliers" are just part of the normal group dispersion. Youre just not shooting enough rounds
Depends on where you point it😆🐸🍺🔪🔥
The Falke B5X looks eerily similar to the Athlon Optics MG51 Midas, so much so that I bet they're manufactured from the same OEM. It has quite clear glass but I do have issues keeping it secured on the rifle. I think it has the same footprint as the EoTech magnifier but I'm not totally sure.
Probably
I was disappointed in the first gen flip mount because it had too much play but the optics are clear and actually quite good. But i have noticed that it's better to use it with wide lens reddot because the smaller ones will restrict the light and you will get a darker image
What's the issue with keeping it on the rifle?
@@PolenarTactical The Athlon has a thumbscrew QD, which tends to get loose under recoil. I see yours has a lever QD, which might work better but the Falke website shows a thumbscrew. If it's compatible with an EOTech mount, that might be a better way to go.
Can you try shooting with just night vision and optic risers instead of night vision and laser aiming devices like Peq-15? And tell us how much difference does it make.
The idea is that, if you can shoot at night with just your night vision and raised optics, then you won't have to pay 800-1000$ for a Peq-15 to be able to shoot accurately at night.
Yes, you can do that, it's called passive aiming. You need a quality optic that has good light and IR transmission and NV settings.
A high mount helps because you have to be able to look through the optic with your NV device to aim.
Laser designators are not just for aiming, they usually have IR illuminators on them which helps you see and aim at longer distances with NV devices
You still might need a peq if you go inside a building with no natural light sources, NV requires IR light so an IR illuminator is still necessary.
Hey Ziga and crew, love your style as always. I know you have astigmatism, would you consider a video (or even just a list) of the best dots you've tried for those of us who also struggle? I went to a gun show to try some but it was difficult to get access.
*side story* At that show as a new shooter I was also trying various magnified optics with a '1x' setting and ended up finding one I really liked, they never have prices so I remember searching google, thinking 'never heard of this kahles' and stumbling away a few minutes later trying not to think about the optic being 4.5x the price of my rifle. 🤣
Great content! Thx
Glad you liked it
I never understood the whole "you must zero your magnifier" when I never noticed I had to do that. When I first got a magnifier, I did zero research on them. I zeroed my AR with an Eotech XPS3-0 AND a holosun on two separate occasions because I sometimes switch back and forth always asking myself which I like better. Both times, I zeroed with the magnifier on to just get best group possible and then would remove my magnifier and shoot and my POI was the same. The groups would open up a small bit, but thats because of me...but no POI shift. I once tested this myself switch back to my eotech and I centered my circle/dot in the magnifier, zeroed it, then I completely threw off the center by alot and my POI was the same. I thought because Eotechs have "almost" no parallax, maybe it would change on a red dot? Nope. It didnt. So I think more people need to test with their set ups if POI shifts because people still say today that it does...when ive seen myself in no way does it at all
Magnifier POI comes into play only as far as parallax goes. For distances of 3x or 5x that one would be shooting with a magnifier …. Not really gonna notice. It’s the kinda thing that would mean 1/2 inch at 100 yards. Nothing you can see with that magnification. Let alone blame the rifle or optic on.
I'm sorry, but the first 3 seconds of the video I was like.... Zelensky?! I'm sorry. :(
Are these your administrative results?
So, now that you have more experience with the AR platform, how do you feel it compares with the AK?
Zelensky out here teaching us about magnifiers👏
5 shots aren't a group and everything one doesn't like is a flyer. Just toss out that mount or the whole magnifier. Gather more data, keep other variables constant. Why not talk to an optician that is also shares our interests?
It seems that it is kindof obvious it wont make a difference as long as the red dot stays on target, "holographically", even if you're not looking only through the center of the optic, then it will also do that with anything you do behind the optic - it's just how physics works. But, don't put a magnifier in front of the sight, though, that would be a recipe for disaster..
Most reddots have different amounts of parallax and moving the magnifier behind the optic will change the aiming/viewing angle but it seems that not enough to make a difference
@@PolenarTactical quality matters eh.
So, then it's good to have the conclusion that within the degree you'd actually offset the magnifier in practice it doesn't matter much 🙂
I'd love to see it demonstrated in a video. I imagine filming through the lens on a few different red dot sights, each one strapped down and zeroed on a target at some well thought-out range, and then moving the camera to see how much the dot is off with each fraction it moves towards the edge of the fov. Like 1/3, 2/3 and right on the edge, say.
"flyers" in sponsored munitions? impossible!
You don't upload so many videos anymore friend......😥. We hope you get the hang of it 🔋
Check out channel, we upload almost every week. RUclips probably doesnt show our new uploads - a lot of our subscribers have told us about this issue :/
S&B! 🙌🏻
With a cheap magnifier like that it’ll shift 😅
Everyone: nooo you have to buy the kaot expensive ooptics on your gun. If it doesnt cost the same as the gun, then it not worth it.
Actual expensive optics :
*Falls apart graciously*
I just had a pretty well known firearms instructor in the US tell the group that a magnifier could absolutely change your POI. I hadn't tested his claim but I couldn't figure out any reasonable reasons why a shift would occur. Appreciate your video.
Uso pura mira de hierro a 150, 300 y 600mts al igual que 5, 15, 25 y 50mts estos últimos en CQB para reacción ambos en tiro en cubierto siempre bajo cobertura 🇲🇽🧐🤌(cal. Usados 223, 556x39, 556x45 y 762x39
I'm sorry, what kind of 5x magnifier is he running? Bc I'm looking for a budget 5x but that still looks good
Falke 5x
polenartactical.com/shop/146-magnifers
Use prism optics. It's more solid and compact.
Someone who knew *physics* could have told the result without actually trying 😊
noice
I had a magnifier zero shift I couldn't figure out. I finally went from a PA micro dot to an eotech and the zero shift went away.
As long as you’re using the same POA relative to the red dot it -shouldn’t- change poi
The effect of parallax will magnifies and red dots at the engagement ranges you’d use them at is very minimal
You just have to remember that the red dot is your poa not the center of the magnifier. The only issue is that the magnifier if of poor quality and or a poor quality red dot may distort the dot
How it looks for people with astigmatism? - i had some issues with red dots- especially cheaper.:(
Magnifiers will help you out - most magnified optics correct for certain amount of astigmatism. You will see the dot clearer and more defined through the magnifier
Now put it in front of reddot
Some put it in front of red dot, and then you have plenty of shift
It is somewhat common to see magnifiers sent with screws that are too long. It has nothing to do with Loctite but rather your screws bottoming out in the helicoils because they need to be shorter
this guyyyyyy
M4FL?
Sorry, but to be complete, in your test , you have to make the same exersice with dot not centered to red dot lense (by exemple in end edge of the lense) ... in order to see if you have an increase of parallax effect. you also know that you can make this exercise without shooting , you place your rifle in bench, and you see if your red dot is moving by moving your head (camera) and by moving magnifier.
Bullshit. The question was "if your magnifier moves, does your POI shift" which he answered. He moved the magnifier about, POI didn't shift.
Halloween Ends sucked!
Result is pretty obvious if you think about it. The dot is in the red dot sight. The magnifier just magnifies. It does not move the dot.
True but every optic has some parallax so if you would move the magnifier to extreme edges of the reddot and thus change the angle of view, it could change the point of impact.
But that would only happen if you would somehow be able to move the magnifier a couple of inches in each direction outside of a normal aiming angle
Does it matter what kind of threadlocker i use?
I would recommend "blue loctite" - Loctite 243 or some kind of equivalent. It prevents the crews from moving but its still possible to get it apart without heating or other measures.
@@PolenarTactical Thank you!
With that wobble? Not a chance. By that I mean not a chance I would take that falke. If the dot is zeroed. Then impact remains unchanged. Pure logic.
If you didn't watch the video, i have loosened the screws.
Your pure logic seems to not take into account the possible change of viewing angle that can cause parallax. In this case the movement from side to side is not nearly enough to have an effect but could influence the POI if the magnifier would be shifted to one or another edge of the optic
the more you know...
What rifle this is?
Schmeisser S4F
RAD
I think your friend was more concermed with the thing moving about during his run. Even if it does not change the gun's zero, I can't imagine having the thing move while you are using it would improve run time and accuracy. You are also using a stable shooting platform and are not exhausted from running. I imagine recoil and shooter stability would be far more likely to cause the magnifier to move while you are shooting.
What if you used the magnifier in front of the red dot?
that would be bad
Great idea for a test!
Thank you
It’s a rifle with an optimal battlefield engagement range of 300 meters. If your “deviation” can be covered with a quarter (2.7 cm), you may be obsessing.
69gr ftw 👌
Thanks for posting this information Ziga! Excellent presentation and shooting as well. Thanks for all you do! ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇸🏁🇮🇱🇺🇦🔱🌻🌸🏵️💮🌼🏴☠️🌄
I run an Eotech w/ a G33 flip mount magnifier on one AR, and a Sig Romeo w/ a Juliet flip mount magnifier on another AR, and I’ve never had an issue with parallax or a change of zero with either of these set ups. Buy good gear, maintain it well - no problems.👍
- Jason/Freedom Fighter Until Death/Vermont, FRA (‘FRA’, meaning “The Failed Republic Of America”)
This is one of the reasons why I gave up red dots and gone full LPVO. If you need magnifier with added weight, you might as well jump on the LPVO that has good true 1X.
any good rifleman will tell you optics only hinder you and the best way to guide your bullets to your target are with willpower alone
and the will of allah
@@PolenarTactical inshallah brother
Hey Polenar, you mentioned your red dot covered the whole center? I know you guys are experts, but i was just checking to see of you lower the brightness till you can barely see the dot before you zero it? I was taught in the service that you should lower it to the lowest setting you can see before you zero because it creates the smallest surface area on the target. If you did already know this, this if for everyone who doesn't. Have a great day! I love everyone!
Nice tip, thanks.
I learned the same thing in basic as we were using old Aimpoints with 4MOA dots :D I always use this technique for precision shooting but for filming we have to turn the dot way up so the camera can pick up on it and focus properly
Regarding the video, the 2MOA dot was larger than my aiming dot at 30 meters distance but it also didnt help that the diopter wasn't set properly on the magnifier, made everything a bit harder to see and less in focus
Hey Polenar, you mentioned your red dot covered the whole center? I know you guys are experts, but i was just checking to see of you lower the brightness till you can barely see the dot before you zero it? I was taught in the service that you should lower it to the lowest setting you can see before you zero because it creates the smallest surface area on the target. If you did already know this, this if for everyone who doesn't. Have a great day! I love everyone!