Wow... I know JD tries very hard not to be seen on camera, but he truly must be a ghost👻. When walking up to the front entrance of the Lippert mirror finish glass building, @ 1:00, you only see engineer Tim and the camera, but no JD ? I can't wait to see the spring suspension offered as an option and after market mod. Image what adding airbags to the springs coils could do for dynamic and static leveling as well, Very exciting new and innovative "game changer" product !
RVs get a bad rep sometimes because of the lightweight construction and abuse they take, but the reality is they have some pretty amazing engineering. It's cool to see the R&D like this, whether they ever make it to market or not, because it shows they don't just slap these things together in somebody's backyard. The tech behind slides and fiberglass & aluminum walls is pretty cool too.
As a retired truck fleet over 40 of doing a lot suspension repairs. Lose the springs and go to air bags. They will probably outlast the RV unit. I’ve seen so many structural problems resolved with air bags. And also get rid off electric drum brakes and go to disc brakes. Sure they will cost a little more during manufacturing but are much safer. And a good air bag suspension would probably pay for itself in warranty repairs by help keeping the camper from getting shook to pieces on the rough roads. I've installed wet bolt kits on 2 of our campers after seeing the nylon bushings wear out in 2 years.
I will be looking for the new independent suspension for my next 5er, I have a steep entry to my drive way and if I can add air bag in place of coils to help lift when exiting or enteing this could make a longer trailer possible in my situation. (My current leaf sprung 35ft required an axle flip).
It will be interesting to hear feedback from customers as this style of suspension goes into production. The lack of shocks alone on a lot of the leaf spring suspension systems has in my mind been one of the lackings with a lack of suspension reaction control and tire wear associated with that issue. The combination of that coil spring pin box and this suspension I hope pans out well for less trailer structure stress.
Thank you for all of these videos, awesome information and very well shared. It is clear to me that you seek the truth and want to inform us your viewers of the information. Thank you
Yes, this is definitely not new but apparently new to Lippert for some reason. I guess the timing of this frame is in response to a previously and poorly designed frame that many of us are stuck with.
Yes he does, but you also have to consider that he’s not just recording for his regular viewers. He’s also viewing for the the beginner, elderly buying their first retirement home or non mechanically inclined so he tends to walk through the response almost overkill for those reasons I’ve noticed.
Autoflex suspension has same suspension system with both coul and air ride, as well as independent suspension that keeps same ride height. I got the air ride suspension system from them few years ago for my 5th wheel
Thabks for showing this JD. It'll be nice to see things like this, and maybe in particular Shocks, probably working their way into more camping trailers. But only 3" of travel for leaf spring suspensions seems a little suspect. I could see 3" from either side of the static/neutral position, but not only 3" of travel total. Also what others have mentioned about further evolution with airbags will allow lots of versatility. Trailer load leveling, parking on non-ideal ground, and also allowing the trailer (probably more so for 5th wheel trailers) to accommodate for different truck bed and receiver heights.
i don't know what "rubber beads" would be in a suspension; rubber-sprung trailer suspensions use rubber rods (Dexter Torflex, etc), solid moulded rubber bushings (UCF Flexiride), or rubber plates in shear (MORryde). While most in North America don't have a separate damper, as mentioned at 4:03, Airstream does have hydraulic dampers (shock absorbers), and both brands common in Europe (Al-Ko and BPW) have optionally available dampers... we're just too cheap to buy them here.
No, the extra steel due to the longitudinal twisting action is the crossmember at the arm pivots, not the beam carrying the shocks as indicated at 9:48. Instead of telling the Lippert VP how his suspension is designed, try asking him "where is that extra steel?" He showed you this at 10:21, but didn't want to say that you were wrong... and you didn't notice because you were too busy talking.
This looks great. Does Lippert use the same hubs that are overfilled with grease they use now? You know, the ones that blow the seals out and coat the brakes with grease?
Great content that would be better if you would stop talking long enough for the person being interviewed to elaborate and provide detail on the product. Thanks for your efforts
That's not what anyone familiar with suspension design would call "multi-link". This is a basic twist-beam design, meaning that due to the lack of separately pivoted upper and lower arms, in order to articulate in roll the axle beam must twist. That's okay in one sense, because it adds substantial roll stiffness, which is needed. The Lippert VP says at 11:05 that they have done something to allow the trailing arms to move relative to the cross-tube (axle beam) - that would presumably reduce beam twist. He doesn't want to explain it, but it would probably be apparent in a close-up shot... which sadly we never get. This type of suspension (but with air springs) is common in heavy commercial trailers; some of these have the arms clamped to the axle tube, while some are welded to it.
If this ever appears on a public Lippert website, it will be presumably be on Lippert's corporate product page for axles (which does show beam leaf spring, independent rubber, and independent coil products). If it is ever offered to the aftermarket, it would presumably appear on the Curt site. It's on neither at this time.
This is not a new set up by any means Chevrolet had this in the 60s on there. Pick up very summer set up for the life of me. I don’t understand why they just didn’t go with airbags and good shocks it would also take all the shock out of the frame because now the airbag and the shock are doing all of the work instead of transferring it all to the frame. Even my old boat trailer from the late 60s had that set up on I thought Lippert was about innovation and improvements, but I digress
Lol I know! Seriously, people must get up in the morning and tell themselves "I have to find anything negative to say on RUclips before my morning coffee"
@@BigTruckBigRV i’m truly not trying to be negative. I’m just being realistic. Maybe I’m just more up-to-date on suspension systems than most in the camper owners, but I won’t comment further. Have a nice day.
@@Itsa_Mea I did my own years ago each axle had two links suspension and a track bar to keep it straight and brackets, welded for the shocks. Everything was air ride
@@vinniegillotti9347 don't get offended here. The reason people consider it innovative is because it has not been applied in mass production market on a 5th wheel trailer.
I think the hitch part can greatly reduce vibration threw out the trailer and reduce frame breakage. No one has recorded vibrations or dynamics of box under tow. Am sure a hitch damper would improve your trailer frame. Something that wears out over time but replaceable and ready for inspection during that oricess
I think a black box would help manufactures or builders of these boxes Like approximate mileage excessive pin point weights and even maybe non exceed speeds which can make these walls weaker during hauls Make black boxes and app’s for scheduled inspections on phone or trailer updates get them in service so these people can accept or deny maintenance programs
I've never seen anything like that Lippert independent trailer suspension from Europe - they have short cast or forged trailing arms on rubber bushings or steel torsion springs, not these relatively long coil (or air) sprung fabricated tubular arms. Is there a brand that I should look for? These suspensions are heavy, but not really because they are independent - they are just structurally crude.
First, is this the frame Brinkley is using and was it based on their specs? I'm sure all the welds on this demo frame are just absolutely perfect but can RV customers expect this same quality on their own new RVs? I guess my next question here since I haven't read through the other comments is this. Why does this seem to be ground breaking? Why was this type of RV never engineered years sooner. After market companies like Road Master offer these types of upgrades for people with the older frames/suspension.
All "big trucks" (18-wheelers) tractors went to air ride on the load axles long ago as did many (especially furniture movers) vans (trailers). Why do all the RV trailer makers have anchors tied to their tails?
So we’ve gone from figuring out the frame flex to pimping Lippert products. Too funny. Invite Josh up and then bait and switch to all his subs. Free advertising.
Pretty sure Lippert frames and Lippert components will be on RVs for the foreseeable future. These videos are extremely relevant because they not only address the issue at hand, they also showcase products and solutions that can help limit damage moving forward. 100% RV related, and because these are Curt products, it tends to be more relevant towards the towing aspect.
No, as long as all of the tires are on the ground (meaning that no suspension has reached its droop limit) load will not transfer between axles if the suspension is truly equalized. The effect which is seen with "equalized" tandem trailer suspensions is just poor design, not a basic physical limitation.
Yes sir. The first lacked some editing that I felt needed to be there. Like my intro lol. I had both and accidentally posted the wrong one. Lol. Same content just better editing.
It's what nearly turn entire industry uses, even the proclame, absolutely amazing Covented Horse Trailer industry. Many luxury brands give you a disk brake option And this is one of those things that you can replaced relatively easily after market.
If there's a bearing failure or component failure like stuck caliper, I can go to multiple auto parts stores and get a new brake drum right off the shelf and be on my way. Trailer brake rotors, not as common so you'd be stuck ordering one and waiting. That's pretty inconvenient when on the road.
Using coils does not give a beam axle suspension the ride quality of an independent suspension. And why say "true independent suspension" at 3:28 and again at 10:48? This isn't independent *at all* . Control arms, coils, and hydraulic dampers are good - just don't pretend that this has any connection to an independant suspension.
They will build it, it will break, then they will say it wasn’t meant to be used full time, it was overloaded, it’s cause you used different tires…blah blah blah
They need to TRIANGULATE the 2nd level. A Simple angle beam from top of the front to the frame would ELIMINATE any potential problems and cost $100. I have never seen such a stress point go unreinforced. Stupid engineering just to make a little storage space
Wow... I know JD tries very hard not to be seen on camera, but he truly must be a ghost👻. When walking up to the front entrance of the Lippert mirror finish glass building, @ 1:00, you only see engineer Tim and the camera, but no JD ? I can't wait to see the spring suspension offered as an option and after market mod. Image what adding airbags to the springs coils could do for dynamic and static leveling as well, Very exciting new and innovative "game changer" product !
RVs get a bad rep sometimes because of the lightweight construction and abuse they take, but the reality is they have some pretty amazing engineering. It's cool to see the R&D like this, whether they ever make it to market or not, because it shows they don't just slap these things together in somebody's backyard. The tech behind slides and fiberglass & aluminum walls is pretty cool too.
As a retired truck fleet over 40 of doing a lot suspension repairs.
Lose the springs and go to air bags. They will probably outlast the RV unit. I’ve seen so many structural problems resolved with air bags. And also get rid off electric drum brakes and go to disc brakes. Sure they will cost a little more during manufacturing but are much safer. And a good air bag suspension would probably pay for itself in warranty repairs by help keeping the camper from getting shook to pieces on the rough roads. I've installed wet bolt kits on 2 of our campers after seeing the nylon bushings wear out in 2 years.
I will be looking for the new independent suspension for my next 5er, I have a steep entry to my drive way and if I can add air bag in place of coils to help lift when exiting or enteing this could make a longer trailer possible in my situation. (My current leaf sprung 35ft required an axle flip).
a smaller version of this on the small trailers swap the springs for airbags with independent controls and boom you got a semi auto leveling system
Really looking forward to seeing how this product get implemented both from the OEM and aftermarket side.
I like it. Add air bags and integrate it into the 6 point leveling system. Camp can be 6" lower and more stable.
It will be interesting to hear feedback from customers as this style of suspension goes into production. The lack of shocks alone on a lot of the leaf spring suspension systems has in my mind been one of the lackings with a lack of suspension reaction control and tire wear associated with that issue. The combination of that coil spring pin box and this suspension I hope pans out well for less trailer structure stress.
Thank you for all of these videos, awesome information and very well shared. It is clear to me that you seek the truth and want to inform us your viewers of the information. Thank you
Thanks JD! Good stuff you're showing
That is so cool! Thanks for showing all of the stuff coming out.
Australian and New Zealand RV manufacturers have been using this type of suspension for years.
Yes, this is definitely not new but apparently new to Lippert for some reason. I guess the timing of this frame is in response to a previously and poorly designed frame that many of us are stuck with.
It's generally new to North American trailers,@@WestsontheMove. It is very old in general automotive terms.
AGAIN jd asked and question the proceeds to answer it. For god sake let the guy answer questions
And please, please video the actual parts of the suspension which is the purpose of the video.
Yes he does, but you also have to consider that he’s not just recording for his regular viewers. He’s also viewing for the the beginner, elderly buying their first retirement home or non mechanically inclined so he tends to walk through the response almost overkill for those reasons I’ve noticed.
The fact that both radius rods come from one side is enough to drive me crazy
It’s a pretty long run. Not a lot of lateral translation on articulation. I’m fine with it.
Autoflex suspension has same suspension system with both coul and air ride, as well as independent suspension that keeps same ride height. I got the air ride suspension system from them few years ago for my 5th wheel
Thabks for showing this JD. It'll be nice to see things like this, and maybe in particular Shocks, probably working their way into more camping trailers.
But only 3" of travel for leaf spring suspensions seems a little suspect. I could see 3" from either side of the static/neutral position, but not only 3" of travel total.
Also what others have mentioned about further evolution with airbags will allow lots of versatility. Trailer load leveling, parking on non-ideal ground, and also allowing the trailer (probably more so for 5th wheel trailers) to accommodate for different truck bed and receiver heights.
i don't know what "rubber beads" would be in a suspension; rubber-sprung trailer suspensions use rubber rods (Dexter Torflex, etc), solid moulded rubber bushings (UCF Flexiride), or rubber plates in shear (MORryde). While most in North America don't have a separate damper, as mentioned at 4:03, Airstream does have hydraulic dampers (shock absorbers), and both brands common in Europe (Al-Ko and BPW) have optionally available dampers... we're just too cheap to buy them here.
Yea! With this new suspension system Lippert can now further cheap up their already flimsy frames !
It would be nice if LCI released that system as a bolt on
LCI has very little interest in the aftermarket.
Wow, I think that I will wait to change my rv for at least one year. I hope that Alliance or Brinkley will offer this option
No, the extra steel due to the longitudinal twisting action is the crossmember at the arm pivots, not the beam carrying the shocks as indicated at 9:48. Instead of telling the Lippert VP how his suspension is designed, try asking him "where is that extra steel?" He showed you this at 10:21, but didn't want to say that you were wrong... and you didn't notice because you were too busy talking.
This looks great. Does Lippert use the same hubs that are overfilled with grease they use now? You know, the ones that blow the seals out and coat the brakes with grease?
Great content that would be better if you would stop talking long enough for the person being interviewed to elaborate and provide detail on the product. Thanks for your efforts
That's not what anyone familiar with suspension design would call "multi-link". This is a basic twist-beam design, meaning that due to the lack of separately pivoted upper and lower arms, in order to articulate in roll the axle beam must twist. That's okay in one sense, because it adds substantial roll stiffness, which is needed.
The Lippert VP says at 11:05 that they have done something to allow the trailing arms to move relative to the cross-tube (axle beam) - that would presumably reduce beam twist. He doesn't want to explain it, but it would probably be apparent in a close-up shot... which sadly we never get. This type of suspension (but with air springs) is common in heavy commercial trailers; some of these have the arms clamped to the axle tube, while some are welded to it.
how about air ride and disc brakes for innovation
Too innovative for a dinosaur company like Lippert who likes to play like they are innovative.
The fifth wheel market is also screaming for frames that don’t fail. What a novel idea
I feel like they modeled this after the Toyota tundra rear suspension. Very similar
If this ever appears on a public Lippert website, it will be presumably be on Lippert's corporate product page for axles (which does show beam leaf spring, independent rubber, and independent coil products). If it is ever offered to the aftermarket, it would presumably appear on the Curt site. It's on neither at this time.
This is not a new set up by any means Chevrolet had this in the 60s on there. Pick up very summer set up for the life of me. I don’t understand why they just didn’t go with airbags and good shocks it would also take all the shock out of the frame because now the airbag and the shock are doing all of the work instead of transferring it all to the frame. Even my old boat trailer from the late 60s had that set up on I thought Lippert was about innovation and improvements, but I digress
The innovation is applying it to a fifth wheel trailer.
What 5th wheel camper have you seen this applied to?
Lol I know! Seriously, people must get up in the morning and tell themselves "I have to find anything negative to say on RUclips before my morning coffee"
@@BigTruckBigRV i’m truly not trying to be negative. I’m just being realistic. Maybe I’m just more up-to-date on suspension systems than most in the camper owners, but I won’t comment further. Have a nice day.
@@Itsa_Mea I did my own years ago each axle had two links suspension and a track bar to keep it straight and brackets, welded for the shocks. Everything was air ride
@@vinniegillotti9347 don't get offended here. The reason people consider it innovative is because it has not been applied in mass production market on a 5th wheel trailer.
👍🏻 good video
Do you think they could make a little buffer under or inside the hitch part to further reduce vibration and a little give of cushion?
I think the hitch part can greatly reduce vibration threw out the trailer and reduce frame breakage. No one has recorded vibrations or dynamics of box under tow.
Am sure a hitch damper would improve your trailer frame.
Something that wears out over time but replaceable and ready for inspection during that oricess
I think a black box would help manufactures or builders of these boxes
Like approximate mileage excessive pin point weights and even maybe non exceed speeds which can make these walls weaker during hauls
Make black boxes and app’s for scheduled inspections on phone or trailer updates get them in service so these people can accept or deny maintenance programs
Did they say when the suspension and pin box are going to be available to purchase?
He said they had released the 5200lb axles and I can’t find them anywhere on the Curt site or social. Do you have a link?
I believe they are working with some manufacturers on prototype units. Not available for aftermarket sale yet.
@@BigTruckBigRV thank you
I've never seen anything like that Lippert independent trailer suspension from Europe - they have short cast or forged trailing arms on rubber bushings or steel torsion springs, not these relatively long coil (or air) sprung fabricated tubular arms. Is there a brand that I should look for?
These suspensions are heavy, but not really because they are independent - they are just structurally crude.
First, is this the frame Brinkley is using and was it based on their specs? I'm sure all the welds on this demo frame are just absolutely perfect but can RV customers expect this same quality on their own new RVs? I guess my next question here since I haven't read through the other comments is this. Why does this seem to be ground breaking? Why was this type of RV never engineered years sooner. After market companies like Road Master offer these types of upgrades for people with the older frames/suspension.
I spy with my little eye the Lippert Edison chassis.
Why interview someone if you think you're smarter, let them speak and learn.
Perhaps I am more comfortable on camera.... How are you when being filmed?
@BigTruckBigRV filming has nothing to do with the opportunity to learn and listen. Arrogance is talking and not listening otherwise give a speech.
I don’t think you understand what he’s saying bud
@BigTruckBigRV What are the steps used on the frame? 10:27
All the R&D in the new suspension but yet still using drum brakes🤔
Is this a re-upload?
All "big trucks" (18-wheelers) tractors went to air ride on the load axles long ago as did many (especially furniture movers) vans (trailers). Why do all the RV trailer makers have anchors tied to their tails?
So we’ve gone from figuring out the frame flex to pimping Lippert products. Too funny. Invite Josh up and then bait and switch to all his subs. Free advertising.
Pretty sure Lippert frames and Lippert components will be on RVs for the foreseeable future. These videos are extremely relevant because they not only address the issue at hand, they also showcase products and solutions that can help limit damage moving forward. 100% RV related, and because these are Curt products, it tends to be more relevant towards the towing aspect.
No, as long as all of the tires are on the ground (meaning that no suspension has reached its droop limit) load will not transfer between axles if the suspension is truly equalized. The effect which is seen with "equalized" tandem trailer suspensions is just poor design, not a basic physical limitation.
A repost?
Yes sir. The first lacked some editing that I felt needed to be there. Like my intro lol. I had both and accidentally posted the wrong one. Lol. Same content just better editing.
@@BigTruckBigRV I’m so glad. I thought I was experiencing a glitch in the matrix
Do NOT use 1950's technology Drum Brakes.
It's what nearly turn entire industry uses, even the proclame, absolutely amazing Covented Horse Trailer industry. Many luxury brands give you a disk brake option And this is one of those things that you can replaced relatively easily after market.
If there's a bearing failure or component failure like stuck caliper, I can go to multiple auto parts stores and get a new brake drum right off the shelf and be on my way. Trailer brake rotors, not as common so you'd be stuck ordering one and waiting. That's pretty inconvenient when on the road.
Kinda d9ne hearing about Lippert. Other content please!
Using coils does not give a beam axle suspension the ride quality of an independent suspension. And why say "true independent suspension" at 3:28 and again at 10:48? This isn't independent *at all* .
Control arms, coils, and hydraulic dampers are good - just don't pretend that this has any connection to an independant suspension.
Gosh - let the engineer talk already.
They will build it, it will break, then they will say it wasn’t meant to be used full time, it was overloaded, it’s cause you used different tires…blah blah blah
They need to TRIANGULATE the 2nd level. A Simple angle beam from top of the front to the frame would ELIMINATE any potential problems and cost $100. I have never seen such a stress point go unreinforced. Stupid engineering just to make a little storage space
Let the guy speak for goodness sake. What’s the point of interviewing him when you do all the talking?