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As a professional truck driver, I have actually helped many RVs scale out correctly. The number one biggest problem I see is that for some reason people like to put their tires directly on the yellow lines instead of in the Box. The second biggest issue I see is that they'll put two axles in the same box like both pickup axles or rear drive pickup and trailer. The third biggest issue I see is that they don't weigh the truck aka the tractor by itself without the trailer
@Captain-Awesome you would be surprised, most RV's actually do make this mistake. CAT scales comprise of 3 smaller scales and the lines seperate the actual platforms. You can actually get out, look down, and see the 2 inch gap or so between the platforms so you really don't want to be between them. It is designed for semi trucks so smaller RV's still might not be big enough to scale correctly. That can be fixed with a re weigh, re positioning on the re weigh, and alittle math.
I am in a Ram truck forum, you would not believe what people pull with a 1500 series truck, i do believe that at least 90% of the RV's on the road are over weight.
Agreed. This was a hard lesson for us to learn. Payload matters; pickup trucks run out of payload long before they run out of tow capacity. The lighter half-ton trucks typically come with P-Metric radial tires. These are wholly unsuitable for towing trailers over 20' length (ask me how I know! 😉). The solution is to swap out those city tires for LT (Light Truck) tires. We did that, and the towing dynamics and experience changed immediately! Much more stable, and we didn't get tossed all over the highway every time a semi passed us. Even in windy weather we were much more stable towing. We were right at the limit of our payload, and this one change made a significant difference. We now use a 3/4-ton for towing our 25-ft travel trailer. Much better still!
Completely believe it. There is a belief system on some forums that if you can start and stop and it “feels good” with “no problems for years”, you are good to go. Lots of see no evil, feel no evil, mindset among RV community.
Thank you for sharing your numbers, we have a Dually GMC and 41' 5th wheel. We understand the importance of weight rating. Many people don't. Retired truck driver here. 😎
Aaron I really appreciate how you explain things - the facts are always linear, at a good pace (not too fast or too slow,) and the information is clear and concise. Thank you 😊
But you did not identify any particular problem or solution. Let me explain. You are only 670lb over weight on your trucks rear axle, and you are 4,420lb under the GCWR weight of 30,000lb. So, since you did not let me see the sticker on the side of your 5th wheel trailer I can't tell you for sure what the solution is but I can tell you a possible solution would be to move stuff in your trailer from the hitch towards the rear bumper. If your water tanks are in the rear of the trailer, you can keep them full. Think of your trailer as a teeter totter. This solution only works if you are under GVWR on your trailer. Also in your video at 3:58 you refer to GVWR as "Everything!" Although I know what you meant some people might confuse GVWR with GCWR, GCWR is a better description of "Everything" as in includes the maximum truck and trailer combined weight. I hope you receive this information well as I am trying to help you. Just so you know a little bit of my background. I have driven on every mile of interstate in the United States and most of Canada well over a million mile club I have driven all kinds of crazy stuff. Once I drove a 45' Prevost coach towing a jeep towing a trailer, that was fun. Here is a suggestion for a video: talk about weight distribution hitches and why you should never use them. The reason why is that the manufacturers of weight distribution hitches don't do any research into how much extra tongue weight they put on a ball coupler. When you use a weight distribution hitch it puts a very high load pushing down on the ball coupler that is attached to the ball if you have a heavy tongue weight trailer and then add a weight distribution hitch you could be way exceeding the capacity of the ball coupler and not even know it. I had this conversation with one of the manufacturers and ask them for the engineering specifications to give me that weight, when they said they didn't have it I threw away the weight distribution hitch and have never used one since. I just make sure my trailers are loaded correctly. @@IreneIronTravels
Don't forget about the tires! On the sidewall of each tire is the max load at the highest pressure rating. On my rig I was 300lbs under the rear axel max BUT only 100 lbs under the tire maxx. Tire manufacturers vary even with the same " ply" rating. Thanks for your wonderful clear explanation.
Great point! I was going to chime in about the tires as well. Generally the Gross Axle Weight Rating is limited by the tires, not the axle itself. The axles are shared sometimes shared between dually and SRW 3500/350 and are again limited by the tires.
Yes, very true! I briefly mentioned tires, but I didn't go into detail on ours. Ironically, the Tremor comes with Goodyear duratracs that have 4,000 per tire. The standard F350 is 3750 per tire.
Also remember that many tires have speed ratings as well. Some of those are in the 63-67 mph range. If you are towing in western states with the 80mph speed limits, the real limit is what is on your tires. Often going slower ends up being faster, because you are not replacing tires. This becomes more vital the closer you get to the tire's limits.
@@tomcruse5731Yeah my 1 ton dually ram 3500 long bed is 65 front and 80 rear. Mines a 2021 with Hight output 6.7 Cummins and can tow 37,100 lbs with a gooseneck hitch. Stout trucks. It’s why you see way more Cummins doing hotshot then you do ford and Chevy/Gmc. The 2021 ram 3500 6.7 beat Ford 2021 6.7 f250/f350 in every rating.
We bought a new travel trailer last year when we paid off our 1/2 ton pup, everyone there and even the factory said our truck would tow it just fine. The trailer weight is only 5500 and our towing capacity was 10500 but the tongue weight is 840 ( Front kitchen and slide) After we had a couple scares towing it we took it to the scales and ended up we were way over on our payload and rear axle rating. Now I have a truck payment on a new 3/4 ton. Never trust the sales person that says your truck is enough for your new trailer !
I had a custom ordered 89 Grand Marquis with a 6,000 pound trailer rating. With load equalizing, tongue weight was limited at 750 lbs. The combined weight rating was 12,500 pounds.
Aaron I am sure you are enjoying the dually while towing but not so much when not. We switched over to a dually because my F-350 SRW was all but maxed out with our fifth wheel. After having taken the fifth wheel on several trips in the last year with the dually, I much prefer the towing dynamics of the dually over the SRW. Good luck and happy camping……
So I haul a truck camper. It’s all about the Payload. It took me a changing trucks once but I learned my lesson. I run a dually now and I will always have one. The positives outweigh the negatives.
at least you learnt, most dont and wonder why they have problems, i see this with boats especially at ramps where they have a sss box car pulling a fair sized boat.
We tow our 30' Airstream with a dually and I often wondered if we got too much truck. But after traveling with the setup, we're finding it works well and we feel safe with it's towing stability and most important, the ability to stop quickly and safely. BTW, great explanations on all points.
I haul horses for my daughter to show. I have always had a dually, even when I only had a 4 horse trailer. We have traveled more than 24 hours at a time to get to a show. I've always felt safe and never had a flat on the truck. Plenty on the trailer.
gordonmedley YOU can NEVER Have too much truck !!! For years I had a 97 F series Super Duty (F450) 7.3 Powerstroke diesel, It had an 11 ft flatbed for the 10 ft camper and we pulled a 2 horse Logan trailer, truck GCWR was 24500 Loaded it weighed in at 19,000 so had plenty of leway and never had a problem and we did a lot of mountain work, Had lots of crazy comments "Think you got enough truck ???" NOPE !!!! Just right !!!
Good informative video! We went through the exact same issue. The old truck was a F250 Gas Tremor with 2700lb payload and a Grand Design 2930RL with 2100lb dry pin weight. With just me in the truck, full fuel tank, 200lbs of tools, hitch and your usual stuff in the trailer, cloths, bathroom stuff, no water in tanks, no washer/dryer, some food, 300lb solar system, put us 1700lb over our payload rating!!! Total surprise from the "wise" guidance on the RV forums, "everything is fine" attitude. Even with the new SRW 2023+ Super Duty's and their 7000lb rear GWAR, 4000lb payload numbers will not support this 35ft RV. We were stuck buying a dually. General rule of thumb seems to be, if you are towing a fifth wheel with a DRY 2000lb+ pin weight, you're most likely in dually territory. FYI, F350 dually rear axle rating is 9900lbs.
I’ve seen several videos on the GVWR and tow capacity topic, and I was pretty sure I had a handle on it. But Aaron I want to thank you for this video. This was by far the clearest and most helpful breakdown I’ve seen. Nicely done. 👍
Excellent video, I think this is the first one I’ve seen covering this topic that was clear, didn’t go to far off topic and stated the information in a way inexperienced people could understand. We own a trucking company specializing in heavy haul so just by experience I’ve always watched for peoples setups and see a ton of them that are clearly overloaded. Another thing often overlooked is some states require special drivers license endorsements. Nevada for example requires either a class J endorsement or class A CDL (or non commercial) for anything being towed that weighs over 10k pounds.
Great job explaining how to get your axles weight right, being a retired truck driver, I've seen alot of over weight or not "balanced weight" accidents, trucks and rvs, most often people don't check anything out and just hook up and go, in most states, DOT will give you a big fine on top of clean up and repair damages you caused on the highway and hopefully you didn't kill anyone, so 10 to 12 dollars and 30 minutes, could help you travel safely...Thanks, can't to see you're next video, hopefully others are sharing this one and you're next.
A lot of good comments. When buying don't trust any of the Sales folks at the trailer lots. LOL I've been RV'er pulling, hauling etc since I was 16 and now 72. Was a Program Design Engineer for one of big 3, we have to know the DOT spec,s. they are there for a reason. Also, Test Engineer for Army on 10-ton and above heavy trucks. ( University of Michigan Engineering has a class, "Design for Trucking" ) It was a great class and you get to very loads in different types of Trailers, as well as the tractor, weight, Balance, center of Gravity, and placement. Just commenting look around there are probably other places that do it as well as any local or State Changes in towing. The axle to axle, tires, the center of Gravity, etc and balanced load are very important. So, I am used to weights and assuring one axle is not overloaded to the other axles. Good job, I also weigh my vehicles as you would be surprised what you accumulate LOL. I have years ago been through some of the same comments I see below. Been told I had enough truck well lucky for me some of my family were truckers and I listened and learned way back from them. Can't say enough more time should be spent doing what was done here and getting folks to everytime they hook up loads change, tires, etc. Everytime I get out at a rest area or fuel I walk around mine to see what I may not feel or notice.... Job and Information well done on this video
We’ve been down this road as well. There are a lot of terms and what they represent to learn when planning to tow a rig. Unfortunately there are a lot of keyboard experts that spread bad information. Your video was well done. Our first truck purchase was an F250 CCLB with the 6.7 L diesel engine. The “truck expert” at the dealership assured us it would handle the fifthwheel we were looking at. (Yes we gave home all the numbers). The. RV salesman agreed that the F250 would be just what we needed. So we bought the truck. Thankfully we learned more about what all the numbers meant before we bought the fifth wheel too. Our payload of only 1926# would not have been enough for the rig we were looking at. We ended up buying a tt instead, due to the low payload. A few years later we bought a new 2023 F350 CCLB with the 7.3 L gas motor and 4.30 gears. I spec’d the truck out for maximum payload and towing capability. GAWR Front axle 5990# GAWR Rear axle 7230# GVWR 11,900# Payload. 4631# Fifthwheel towing Max Pin Wt. 3195# Max Trailer rating 21,300# These numbers are specific to my truck vin, directly from ford. If only the original “truck expert” had suggested the right truck for what we wanted to do, it would have saved us time, money and lots of angst. Since I wasn’t going to make that mistake twice, I spent a lot of time researching each rating. So you aren’t alone in this… Safe travels
How has the experience been going from diesel to gas? Just guessing here, but I would think you went from higher torque and lower trailer weight, to a combo with less torque and more tailer weight. Do you tow at higher elevations or through mountains?
@@iwwqytv yes, you are correct. The F250 with the 6.7 L diesel had a lot of torque but minimal payload. Our 2023 F350 with the 7.3 L gas motor and 4.30 gears has a lot of torque too, just not as much as the diesel. Yes the diesel is better but the gas motor does the job nicely. We towed a 8100# tt over the Rockies a couple of months ago. It handled it just fine. We just picked up our new Rockwood R371RK fifthwheel yesterday. It’s currently at just over 11,000# empty. It towed just fine driving from Elkhart IN to Milwaukee WI. No big hills but I’m not worried. It was still zippy on the highway and off the line. We are headed out west next week. I will know more then but I really don’t see a need. The only thing I miss is getting fuel at truck stops with my tsd card. It let me use truck lanes with high volume pumps. It filled my 48 gal tank really quick and the lanes were easy to navigate with the truck and trailer. I do miss that but otherwise I am happy with my truck trailer combo. It’s all about what you are pulling and what your expectations are.
I wasn't aware that Ford still offered the V-10 gas motor in F350's. As far as missing the commercial vehicle pump use, there are *some* truck stops and highway service plazas that have gasoline available in the truck areas. Certainly much more comfortably accessible for people towing big trailers. 👍
My 2023 F-350 crew cab lariat srw with the 7.3 gas motor has a payload capacity of 4,390 lbs with a gvwr of 11,900. Keep in mind the diesel is wonderful, but does lower the truck's payload because it's heavier.
My 2022 350 diesel is rated at 12400 not 11900. They may have increased the weight rating on the diesels. I did look at the charts for all models and trims awhile back. The short box vs the long box and the 2wd vs the 4wd all have different GVRW. Mine is a 4wd long bed crew cab and that’s probably factored in also.
@@Californians_go_home Agree - all that additional metal and options get heavy. We have a Ram 3500 Laramie dually diesel crew cab long bed with lots of bells and whistles, but our payload capacity is still only around 5,100 lbs. A base model 3500 dually with the hemi engine has a payload of around 7,700 lb.
@@user-su6kq7cv2s I have learned you can have the weight rating on your truck de rated if you are trying to stay under a certain rating for commercial purposes. Found it interesting. Depending on how your truck was ordered from the factory, you can have options that increase the payload capacity and the door tag will reflect that. Most F350’s I believe ship at 11900, mine was special ordered by a guy that never took delivery and my tag says 12400. I believe it was ordered with a specified rating . Only a guess.
I've watched quite a few of these RV weight type videos, and I think you knocked it out of the park. You explained the numbers as simply as possible. Much appreciated.
Great video and information! Another thing to consider is if you are ever in an accident and you are overweight, you will have a lot more headaches with insurance and liability.
Glad to see this video. Way too many people thinking their loaded up Platinum or Limited trim level trucks can tow the maximum advertised weights they show on the commercials and advertisements. In reality you're looking at a XL regular cab with an 8 ft box 2WD to get those numbers, which nobody is buying. I'd be willing to bet that a large majority of people towing these massive 5th wheels with their high trim level crew cabs are way, way over their payload and GVWR.
Exactly, each manufacturer has a towing guide pdf with every cab/bed/powertrain/drivetrain/gearing configuration. People don't realize those numbers are for the ABSOLUTE most BASIC truck you can get with not a SINGLE option other than any listed as required. What's on there is still your trucks Gross Combined, regardless of trim, but payload will limit you(idc what any of these smarties say about "oh it doesn't matter, the axles are rated for it!" yeah, it doesn't matter, until it does matter).
The real discrepancy is that J2807 tow ratings are based on 15% pin weight for goosenecks, and only 400 pounds of people + gear in the cab. (In this scenario, J2807 requires the TV to be within GVWR at the stated tow rating. So it really has nothing to do with options.) RVers don't travel that way. Higher pin weight percentages and more gear in the truck is why payload capacity isn't easy to hit for many (but not all) trucks before hitting other metrics. Manufacturers swayed J2807 this way because it's a marketing tool, and bigger numbers make for better marketing.
Great Numbers, and information that RV people should know. I recently went to the Seattle and Tacoma RV shows and had quite a few salesman try to sell me fifth wheels that were way over what my truck can handle (2500) all they want is to be able to sell something. They don’t care if you can safely pull it or not.
100% true! When we were looking for a class c, I focused on the OCCC and was stunned When the salesman said he didn't know what the OCCCwas the salesman and claimed to be in the business for years. What a liar. I left Camping World and will never buy any RV from them. Oh, We did buy a Winnebago View had an independent dealership and happy with it ...Just have to watch the weight.
No matter what they are selling all salespeople make their living telling lies. Head into the service dept and see if they can talk to you about what you are looking at can do.
A local reputable RV dealer wouldn't sell a trailer to a buyer who came in with a 1/2 ton pickup to tow it. The buyer was not willing to accept the fact that his pickup wasn't adequate for the tongue weight. They told him that they would not send him out with their trailer attached to the pickup he had. They certainly earned my respect.
This is a very important topic! We were shocked when we went down this confusing learning curve. Keep up the good job you're sharing with all of us. The trailer people just want to sell trailers and the truck people do the same.
Awesome job providing the basics on understanding how your rig's weight works in relationship with the combined truck and 5th wheel weights. "Yes" this issue is discussed on every form of social media. Your explanations may cause several viewers to hop on the scales and see for themselves. F.Y.I. = I weigh our setup EVERY-TIME we roll out! Sadly, many are going to find out that their RV dealership who told them that their truck was rated to pull that trailer they are preparing to buy or just bought; are going to find they are over their max weights. Especially the so-called "Half Ton" 5th wheel trailers being pulled by a "1500 or 150" half ton truck. Like a vast majority that we see on the road on a regular basis. ... Great job on the video!
I am also a professional driver and drove for Old Dominion for 15 years. I think this is the very best video and you did an outstanding job of explaining it. I always knew I needed at least a 1 ton truck and at least this explains it and I’ll be showing this to my wife so that she understands what the limitations are. You should know I’m subscribe to you and I enjoy your channel.
I'm a stickler for towing numbers. I tow a 33 foot camper with my f150. I have slightly upgraded a few things like brakes and springs to make the towing experience easier. But I still tow within my factory tow specs. Its important to know that buying helper springs and drilled and slotted towing rotors doesn't change your factory tow ratings. Be safe out there. Not just for you and your family, but also for the family driving beside you.
If you get a slider 5th wheel hitch or set up to move it forward or back you can distribute the weight in your truck and make your weights as we say axle out properly. I build all my trucks with more than one hitch location. So I can make things legal.
Nope. The 3600 pounds of hitch weight is still 3600 pounds added to the truck, so it is still over GVWR, regardless of the hitch position. The rear axle load could be reduced by sliding the hitch forward, but GVWR will still be exceeded, and front GAWR might be exceeded as well.
Thanks for video I’m new to rv life just ordered a new bumper pull camper and bought a bigger truck to pull it with people thought I was crazy adding up the weights of my kids car seats and my wife and I to make sure I had enough truck for us plus gear this video to me proves I’m not so crazy
I’m a professional truck driver and full time RV’er. I have a one ton duality that’s been used for slide in camper, bumper pull and fifth wheel. I have a stack of scale tickets in my truck right now documenting past and present vehicle weights. I love doing it. Any change in configuration is celebrated with another trip to the scale. I can show you anal attention to detail AND flagrant stupidity (yeah, despite doing it for a living) The easiest rating to overlook and violate is tire rating. Fine, you made yourself aware of your units GVW ratings and stand ahead of the majority of people out there, but can the rubber beneath it stand the load? and are your tires properly inflated? The second easiest to overlook is hitch ratings. Oh how we collectively beat up our hitches. Glad this guy focused on weight distribution on tow vehicle. If too much of the weight is on the drive axle, or leveraged off the steer axle (bumper pull I’m looking at you)…surprise! Cannot steer, especially in wet or freezing conditions.
The best description of this process I’ve seen. Thank you for taking the time. I’ve used a cat scale to prove I was not overloaded when I had to have my 5th wheel axles bent back into alignment. I was okay, but just barely. But my RV is a 2004 model that just needed persuaded back into alignment. Tires wearing even now.
You learned the hard way that the Tremor trim was not intended to be a towing machine. This is why I ordered a CCLB Lariat, maximum GAWR/GVWR SRW option.
I'm amazed at the people I meet that have never did this. We have basically the same set you have but our 5th wheel is only 30 feet. We travel pretty light and when we got out new camper, we purged a lot of stuff we never used. I took ours to the scale when we first got it and made sure it was fully loaded. We are way under our GVW non all axles and hitch. This was very good information and I hope others watch it.
11:40 You've got your arrow pointed at the 2-wheel drive (4x2) column. The correct number for your short-bed 4x4 Tremor is one column to the right of that and shows 21,900 for Tremor (footnote 6). That said, I realize that the other numbers like GVWR and GAWR are where the problem is.
Great video! I was commercial truck for 17 years prior to this. I have approximately 1.5 million safe miles my under my belt and I like to think that I have enough valid insight and experience to chime in here. I did some hauling with my 07 F350 SRW with a (modified for improved towing) 6.0 Powerstroke that was quite heavy on two occasions around 7-8 years ago. I remember scaling about 200-ish lbs heavy on the rear axle of my ford with a 12,000lb (dry/empty) tri axle dually gooseneck trailer (that's a mouth full). My loaded weight was 34,700lbs and some change. I made two loaded 1500 mile trips and two 1500 mile trips with the trailer unloaded. My truck handled it just fine during that window but there was definitely noticeable wear on it. Being a single rear wheel truck, I ended up using most of the available tire life on relatively new E load rated tires. While I was impressed with the power my truck had, it was clear that I was pushing things. Today's diesel trucks are far more powerful and, for that reason, I feel that the newer diesels can give some people false confidence and get them into trouble. After its all said and done, your rig needs to do more than pull your trailer. That is what makes the info in this video so important. You NEED to be able to stop, control your load going downhill (the importance of this cannot be overstated) turn safely, fit in to places and there isn't always a level place to park. Even though I was only marginally over on my drive axle and well under the load capacity of my trailer, I was well over my max towing capacity. The heavier you make it, the more things that can wrong and you increase the likelihood that bad things can occur. I got away with it and no longer haul anything.
Exactly, most of my 1/2 ton friends brag how their truck is capable of towing. But they put their fingers in their ears when I ask how it's going to handle if they get hit, have to stop, or have a blowout.
@@tpaul340women never listen. I’m assuming they are women because they have 1/2 ton trucks. Wait I’m wrong, it’s 2024, the gals drive the one tons, the boys drive the console shifter eco boosts.
Good info. I watched payload very closely when I purchased our new trailer last fall. We are close, but o.k. Towing a trailer with a GVRW of 6,933 lbs. with a Silverado 1500 with tow package and payload of 1,755 lbs. We have 100+ lbs of cushion. Trailer and truck tow very nicely. The torsion bar suspension on the Rockwood Mini Lite is excellent. Braking is smooth and powerful on the truck and the trailer.
Have not had it on mountain passes as yet. I towed our previous trailer, which weighed about 500 lbs less, out to PA and back last summer, about 3.500 miles. The PA turnpike has a few grades, but nothing like the mountains in the west. Living in MN, most of our travel will not be in the mountains. Don't know the specific ratings, but my truck has Goodyear Wrangler All Terrain Kevlar tires. The trailer has Goodyear Endurance. Been towing travel trailers on Goodyear Wranglers of different flavors since 2011. Never had an issue with truck or trailer tires. @@mmmd3429
Definitely Under Trucked Lol 100lbs of cushion, 100 lbs of cushion is you fooling yourself into believing that you're not a danger to Yourselves, but you need to at a minimum a 3/4 ton with towing packages etc. Then, you will have an appropriate Cushion.
So true, so true! If he was at 75% of max tow or hitch weight and 100#’s over, that’s one thing, but to be within 100#’s of max ratings. No way! OMG! Unless I am reading that wrong? @@timsmothers8740
I'm glad to hear you decided to weigh everything, I feel more than 60% don't. Here's a quick way to tell if you're towing too much, like in your case as well as everyone else who may not know if it looks like your truck is doing a wheelie after you hook up, you are towing too much.
Just a note: He says that front axle loads don't really matter. If you install your fifth wheel hitch or gooseneck ball in front of the rear axle you will add weight to the front axle. In fact, it should be installed in front of the rear axle. If you have too much weight on the rear axle you may be able to move your hitch point forward to shift weight and correct that. (I've done this on my own truck, it actually drives a lot better with more weight on the front axle.)
One big thing to remember is that all liquids count -- gas, diesel, propane, fresh water, gray water, black water etc. Thanks - this video was full of great info.
The weight of extra items need taken into consideration. If you have 2, 40 lb propane bottles make sure they are full. Same with water. If you are boondocking and fill your water tank have it full when you weigh. I was told weigh full of fresh water and weigh, drop the water and weigh again so I know how 50 gallons of water affects all the axle weights. Basically load the thing up to the heaviest it will be. If you are over then figure out what you need to reduce. The RV dealers that say do not worry they don't stop RVs are bullshit artists. They can stop you any where and if you're overweight you are screwed. Need a video of what happens when you are overweight and idea of what the fines are. USA is broke and checking RV weight is low hanging fruit for highway funds!!!
Yep that’s why truckers get weighed before and after fueling. If dot limit is 80k pounds and the total weight before fuel is 79500 you can get 450-475 pounds of fuel.
I remember when I was a kid, back in the late 60s. My dad and other people would hook up the travel trailer to the family sedan or station wagon. I don't think that there were all these numbers to think about but what I do know is people weren't going 70,75, or 80 mph.
Thanks for broaching this topic! As you said it doesn't get enough attention. Perhaps your mini series should include individual tire weigh offered by Escapees. In my opinion it is a much better option as it ensures weight distribution from side to side is factored in.
Great suggestion, thanks Neil! I actually talked about Escapees Weigh Safe, but cut it out of the video as I was trying to not make it too long winded. We have friends that did that and it really is a great option. I knew I should have kept it in!
So this is something that we do every time we travel. We always make sure we’re not overweight on either the truck axles or the trailer axles. Since I have a single rear wheel 3500 I also had to make sure that the tires would add up to whatever weight rating had on the rear axles. if you’re looking for the highest rated tires, they are the Toyo AT3 LT 295, 6520. each tire has a weight rating of 4080 pounds this is the highest rated tire. I can find out of every brand tire.
I'll be interested in your next video explaining what you are going to do. I have the same truck you do and I'm pulling a Brinkley Z3100. We just changed over from a class A motorhome, so I don't think we have yet loaded our 5th wheel to the hilt! We used to have a camper on the truck, and for that, I added airbags. Don't know if that just helps level the ride, or increases capacity. Look forward to your comments. Thanks for all the work you do putting together these videos. You're a great couple!
Thanks Appreciate you watching! You should be ok if you stay south of 15k. But again so many variables, with how much weight you put in the truck with people, pets, gear and hitch.And you wont 100% know till you weigh. The airbags do help level your truck which improves drivability and safety, but will not increase your capacity at all. So you could still be overloading your truck with airbags on.
Airbags will carry some of the load that the suspension was carrying before. That will give your suspension more capacity. However, the total load from both is carried by the axles and tires which have no increased capacity. If you put on higher capacity wheels and tires you’ll eventually hit another limit like lug nuts or bearings. You can have a problem if you get too much truck as well. The 5th wheel was designed to be hauled by a certain truck and suspension. The suspension of an F750 is way too stiff for a 5th wheel frame. The 350 goes over a pothole and moves 3” while the 750 moves 1” (just an illustration).
My father was a mechanic for a large construction company and was up on the dot regulations for there trucks he has always talked about how no one ever looks at there tire load range so nice job mentioning that
Sir, you are spot on, when I had my 1 ton Chevy Duramax Long bed towing a 2023 North Point 310RLTS I was about 150lbs from maxing out my RAWR, I had a 7250lbs and was 150lbs left to go. My GVWR was 12,300lbs for my long bed, I was good on the other weight rating, but I didn't like the fact that I had only 150lbs left so I just move up to a 1 ton dually and I'm glad I did because we might be moving up a little in getting another 5th wheel later but for now I like that specs on our setup. This was a helpful video for me and I'm sure for other also, and yes you are so right I have seen a lot of 3/4 truck towing what seem like over weight 5th wheel towing cross-country a few times you see a lot as you know.
One of the best videos I have watched about that subject 👍 I have read too much nonsense on many forums about the maximum towing rating of trucks only that I decided to share your video rather than trying to re-explain the same thing over and over again. Cheers Phil
We have friends who have been traveling since 1990. At one point they had moved up to a 5th wheel 2 axle trailer smaller than yours which was pulled by a Chevy pickup. Shortly after putting this combination on the road they had a tire blowout on one tire on the trailer while cruising at speed on a four lane freeway doing 60 mph. There was a significant control issue immediately following the blowout which did not lead to driving off the road or forced lane crossing, either of which could have bee fatal. It was a very harrowing experience though. When they were able to get to the nearest RV repair facility to effect repairs on the damage to the trailer, one of the senior staff members had a serious conversation about puling a 5th wheel trailer with a pickup truck like theirs that did not have dual rear wheels. He pointed out that had the blowout occurred on either of the rear tires of their tow vehicle, they most likely would have lost control immediately with very serious injuries or fatalities as a result. Not to mention the destruction of one or both vehicles. After a long discussion and other consultations with other sources they made a very well informed decision to trade in their nearly new truck on a truck with duel tires for many more years of safe traveling. I am very surprised you did not even mention this at all.
Good job explaining the weights, lot's of people do not understand how they work. Eyeballing you can see the truck is definitely at the edge. Bags or heavier springs would help, although they won't increase axle rating, but it will help handling in more extreme circumstances. Although the truck would weigh a little more I suspect a long box may actually work better if the hitch was set up correctly as you can put a little more weight on the front axle.
All the 5th wheel hitches I have had were mounted 2” in front of the rear axle centerline so that a small part of the trailer king pin weight was transferred to the front axle. EMPTY WEIGHT of a truck includes a full tank of fuel also.
I agree, that couple of inches transfers a small amount of the 5th wheel to the trucks front axle. If you are lucky enough to have a sliding 5th wheel hitch you can finesse how much weight you put on the trucks front axle to obtain a "solid feel" when towing. Always double check though because adding any more weight to the front of the towed 5th wheel will add a little to the trucks front axle. Stay alert, stay safe and happy trails! (Retired CDL driver and accredited community college instructor)
Another top notch video from you guys! I can't wait to see how you address this issue in your next video. I have a 25' Airstream Globetrotter that I used to tow with an Infinity QX80 (until I visited a CAT scale). While we were officially under the advertised "Towing Capacity" of the SUV, we couldn't put anything inside without going over the GVWR. We upgraded to a RAM 2500 with 6.4 HEMI. The nearly 3,000 lb payload of the truck can easily handle anything we put in the bed, plus the 1,000 lb tongue wt. My loaded tongue wt is about 150 lbs higher than factory specs because I have a 900 Ah lithium bank and Victron Multiplus II (I learned how to do this install in part from your videos). I recently did an experiment to determine the effect of using a weight distribution hitch vs leveling the truck with air suspension. I'd be happy to send you my numbers which would be applicable to folks with 3/4 ton trucks and bumper pull setup. Keep up the great work!
@@johnirwin1837F550 is way higher. But getting into the class 5 comes with insurance costing more depending upon what state. Commercial insurance policies are not cheap.
30 years ago, I was a heavy duty mechanic. When I saw the clip of you pulling the RV, I noticed your front end was a little high. To me, that suggested you were heavier than desired. I called that, "front end dancing."
💯 I worked at ups. They got a batch of new single axle ch 612 macks tractors in the late 90s early 2000s. The all did the front end dancing. They went thru tires like crazy. The tires would get choppy and slap the highway wobble at highways speeds
I weighed my truck and travel trailer in 2019 and bought a new truck the next year before traveling again. Yes it was very much overweight on the drive axle even with the anti sway and leveling hitch. I also changed wheels and tires on the trailer and made some adjustments. My rig is so much easier to drive now.
Very good video! This is why I bought the 3500 DRW - the truck isn’t any issue for weights. But so easy to top out the 5th wheel. A free ton, if you have it in the rv, isn’t as much as you think
Excellent video Aaron, such important information that many need to pay attention to. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I know my truck and what it can do. It tows just fine, no problems." That generally means I don't need no stinkin Cat Scales.
@@josephrichter826 THE speed limit should be based on your towing a trailer Along with the speed rating on your trailer tires. The speed rating on your trailer tires should be the max speed you drive, For your safety and others on the road. 😊
Thanks for creating such a clear and informative video - this was great. One small suggestion: while your method for calculating gross trailer weight certainly works, it is much easier and more intuitive to simply take the gross weight of the Truck and RV combo and subtract the gross weight of the truck. Using your numbers, that would be 25,580 - 8,840 = 16,740. No need to do all the math with the axle weights!
I'm curious how many people will argue with me about this FMCSA Law. Class B*: Any single vehicle which has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight that does not exceed 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds). Your trailer is over 10,000 lbs. Does Chrissy have a Class B CDL? This is a Federal law, NOT a State law. Can't wait to see the comments about this.
I guess that I'll be the first to argue with you. I don't drive my motorhome for commercial purposes, so FMCSA regulations do not apply to me. I *am*, however, required to have the proper state-issued license for the vehicle that I drive. Different states have different requirements. My state of residence, Texas, has non-commercial class A and B licenses with requirements that are a subset of FMCSA requirements for class A and B CDLs, but these are very specifically "non-commercial" licenses. Many people don't understand the distinction between license classes (A, B, C, etc.) and commercial vs. non-commercial. Where is gets particularly confusing is when someone is making money on the road via RVing, such as making money off of RUclips videos about RVing. Does that mean that a commercial driver's license is required? Other states have exemptions for RVing and do not require anything other than a regular license, regardless of RV weight. The bottom line is to make certain that you have the correct license (class and commercial/non-commercial) for your state of residence and how you are using your RV.
Here in Canada, for the larger 5th wheels you need a special license class rating, you take a course and have a driver's exam for it as well. It the "non commercial " light version of the license requirements
You are correct, I talked about this with our county sheriff (pop 500k), he stated that they don’t bother with RVers with this issue. Many don’t have the correct license. If the trailer is over 10k it’s a class a license. If over 26k but less than 10k trailer-it’s class b. Then the endorsements like air brakes for a class a rv if they have them or double for towing a 5th wheel with a boat. These are non CDL for personal use. Just look at your drivers license to see what your able to drive legally. But once it’s for profit, it’s CDL. Depending on what you’re driving, you don’t need a class a CDL. For example, driving a truck and trailer under 26k and trailer under 10k but the trailer has a tank over 119gals with fuel. Now you’re required to have hazmat and tanker endorsements.
Yep! In AR a personal RV at 26,001 with air brakes requires a CDL. Most of my family has CDLs, but we do warn the younger generation about the rules since they help drive.
There are exceptions to that rule. I have my class A CDL with all the endorsements except hazmat, I don't need any CDL to drive any camper/travel/or toy hauler. I know cops that don't even know the law and are misinformed.
Probably should show the other sticker on the door jam (yellow with the tire on it) It actually shows your payload number. This is important as it compensates for the trim level of your truck. There's also one on your trailer.
I’ve always gone with payload weight in my calculations, because it is said that you’ll break your payload weight be for your tow weight. I do thank you for this information about cat scales because I will double check my calculations when I get my trailer back out this summer.
If you read the rating properly you will see that the vehicle ratings are shown for Goosneck couplings in the table - Note 4 states that 5th wheel couplings are limited to a max of 19000 lb (as opposed to your stated 20900 lb that you got from within the table
I weigh mine , truck only full tank , truck with 5th wheel toy hauler camper. Toy haulers are heavier on the pin weight due to the design of the extra ton of cargo that goes in the back garage. If not enough cargo weight in the back , the pin weight is heavyier. If close on the rear axle weight of the tow vehicle , add more weight to the very rear of camper cargo area reduces weight on the pin. Also to help truck tow better , add a good set of air bags to the rear axle of tow vehicle to make everything sit and tow level. I installed 10 ply tires on both the 5th wheel camper toy hauler AND 10 ply tires on the tow vehicle. I tow the camper with ALL tanks empty.
GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Every Rver should load up their Rv to the gills like you are going on a 2 week trip, fill ALL your tanks, waste too, then scale it. each wheel separately too. Record these numbers as you will forget and want to reference these numbers in years to come. ALSO, lay a long stick across the high point of your Rv THEN measure the underside to the pavement to know your Rv height. THE MORE YOU KNOW... !
I had a good understanding of all these weights prior to your video, but you did a great job of explaining. Hopefully a lot of people are learning from this.
If you moved your 5th wheel forward, you could shift more weight onto the front axle. Then you just need to move some of the trailer's weight to the rear of the trailer to take 900 lbs off the truck to stay under GVWR. On semi trailers you can slide the trailer axles forward to transfer weight from the tractor to the trailer to get everything to scale out.
I like to keep a little spread sheet on my phone with all of my truck's specific weight ratings. That way when I hit the scales at a truck stop I can plug those numbers in and it will highlight in red for me if I'm over any of them For me, I have a 2014 RAM 3500 dually, and the one rating I typically come closest to when towing is the tire weight capacities and RV GCWR. It is also a helpful view to know if your RV weight is distributed properly inside the rig. I tend to pack the back end too heavy, and that's unsafe as well even though it's technically within spec.
I only cook with cast iron. My first trailer had no slides, so the side my kitchen was on had too much weight. On travel days I had to redistribute my cookware to even out my side to side weight.
The best weight system for RV’s is Smart weigh at the Escapees RV parks. It’s also the tires and age of tires. It also gives you the weight on each tire. You will also get advice on how to correct any problems.
When we had our 8,000 lb. independent suspension & disk brakes installed at MorRyde this past summer, they opined that, while the IS and beams are a bit heavier than the axels they replace, the weight is carried below the RV frame, and as such should not be counted against the GVWR (except where tires and wheels are concerned I suppose).
The key point is also weight distribution, not only weight. More weight in the back of the trailer means less weitght on the hitch. Anything that you add behind the axle actually lifts up the hitch. Same with the location of the hitch on the truck bed. If it is behind the axle, you add more weight to the rear axle load than the actual weight on the hitch.
Great video. When my wife wanted us to move up from a 35' bumper unit to a 5th wheel 2021 Columbus 388FK. I knew we needed a new truck. I took a picture of all the stickers, sat at the computer to see what the trucks were actually licenced to tow. The factory says the pin weight is 2500lb with 2 7000lb axels GVWR was just under 17,000. 13'4" & 41' 13000lb Dry weight I opted for a 2021 Ram 3500 Limited Mega cab 4x4 Dually. By the time I had everything in the unit my pin weight was 4239lb The base weight on the front axel is 5014lb (with trailer 5620lb) max is 6000lb. The rear axel base is 3181lb (with trailer 7420lb) max 9750lb. With a total towing weight of 33260lb. Therefore we are within our limits but I say just within them. People may not want the dually's but if your going to do it right most high trailers will need them just for pin weight and side wind control. Bottom line trust no one... They don't pay the fine YOU DO FYI in Ontario Canada...you can pull a 20000lb trailer down the road with anything (stupid) We see it all the time here. half ton pulling a big unit up the highway...Headlights aimed at the moon, rear bumper dragging on the road. It's all good until they find out after they crash and kill someone, and the insurance say's NO you were over loaded. Many dealers said our 2500 was good. BE SAFE FOLLOW THE VIDEO
We were looking at a Montana 5th wheel, but bought a 36' Keystone Arcadia 5th wheel instead. The hitch weight on the Montana was 2400 pounds and the Arcadia is about 1850. My Ram 2500 (8K pounds net) has the diesel and because the engine weight is so much, I can only have 2K pounds in the bed. The Montana tongue weight overloaded my truck, while the Arcadia gives me a chance of being within limits with 15 to 20% tongue weight on roughly 11K+ pound trailer. Cheers, Scott
All very good points, i keep trying to tell everyone my truck is almost overloaded with my current setup. I had a salesman try and sell me a Ram 2500 after i came in to inquire about a 5500!
Also a trick to consider if you want to know hitch weight, when doing your second weigh, don’t drop the trailer in a parking spot, drop it on the rear scale, then you can see exactly how much weight the trailer is “losing” ie transferring to trucks hitch
if you pull a trailer with an equilizer, you'll want to do a 3rd weight-in. 1st do the whole rig like in the video. the 2nd, unhitch the equalizer but leave the trailer attached. 3rd, pull to a safe parking area and drop the trailer. calculate the weight the equalizer has on front axle. that will be your tongue weight
You have to build the uses case for your truck 1st. Ours was 1st overlander build for family of 3, 2nd tow rig for 2 show/race cars in a 15,000 GVWR trailer. Payload comes in handy when you're optioning your truck. It's a great way to separate must haves from nice to haves. The options we went with on the 7.3 gas F250 Tremor Lariat, put our Tare weight 7080, GVWR 10,000, payload 2920, 5th wheel 18,500, FT GAWR 4800, RR GAWR 6340. The diesel engine and glass roof weight, would have eaten away at the truck's rated capability more than the doubled torque numbers from the diesel added.
How you spec your trailer and how you pack it out makes all the difference. If you have a front kitchen, you are starting out with a huge disadvantage when you play this game. To move weight off of the rear axle of your truck, simply put the weight over or behind the trailer axles. Just don’t exceed the axle/tire rating of the trailer. Stow as much of your loose stuff there and it will help you out tremendously.
So in TX, your 1ton truck is limited registration wise to 10,000lb GVWR, or was the case several years ago. I had a friend who was ticketed for being overweight by Tx DPS. He was actually ticketed twice from what he was telling me. The trooper gave him one then the state sent him one. He was driving a 1 ton DRW towing a trailer with 2 Jeeps. Myself I weighed my combination 16,500 lbs Excursion 7.3, trailer & Jeep
Great break down. Yes it is that important and I'll be looking at your other videos. We learned a bunch buying a truck camper and needing to two an enclosed trailer with motorcycles or side by side with that same truck with the truck camper in the bed on a 2024 GMC Sierra 3500 diesel. 1. The RV dealers will lie through their teeth about what your truck can handle so they are not to be trusted. 2. Diesel trucks will eat up your payload capacity because the diesel and their emissions systems weigh a lot more than a gas setup. 3. The manufacturer information on their website is all but useless - You need your truck in hand to be able to see the door sticker before even thinking about your purchase of an RV. In the case of a truck camper and GMC there is another sticker in the glove box showing the truck camper recommended maximum. 4. As you found out you need to weigh your complete setup. 5. Most people with a single rear wheel truck are overloading them with truck campers by a far margin - We had to buy a significantly smaller/lighter truck camper than we had been told or even expected to buy ourselves after doing the research.
if you need less hitch weight just move all the gear to the back of the trailer to off set the weight. my 2020 GMC 3500 crew cab diesel with X31 off-road package has a GVWR 12,500 ive had it way over that with a plow and weight and salt in the bed and it handles it just fine.
Road conditions make a big difference on your rig as well. Most states out there suck with the roads. If your heavy on the bad roads,safety is very reduced. But don't worry. The d.o.t will make more roundabouts to make the roads better.
Good job! I had a 2017 Silverado 3500 LWB single rear wheel truck and towed a 2018 Solitude 310gk. In the truck I had a heavy ranch hand front bumper with a 18k winch, in the rear I had a 60 gallon fuel tank and a tool box plus a 20k Curt 5th wheel hitch. My GVWR for the truck was 11,600. When loaded my rear axle ranged from 7200 to 7500 depending on how much fresh water I had in the tank. Front axle was usually around 5600 which was right at max for the axle. So, I was 12,800 to 13,100 gross, almost 1500 lbs overloaded. Last year I traded my truck and bought a dually! Now I have a little cushion, but my Gross vehicle weight rating is still only 14,000, so not as much as one would think. My rear axle rating is now 10,500 and my front is 6,000 so I have plenty of capacity, but I will go over gross if I get carried away.
I had a 14400# gvw 5th wheel and towed it with a 2500Hd with a 9200# GVWR. I bought the truck without 4wd so I could get extra payload. It scaled at 300# under front axel. 200# under rear axel and 200# under trailer axels, This was fully loaded for 2 wk camping trip including passengers, I was also Under on gcwr. I was over on the trucks gvwr by 800 # I now have e small MH 1200# under fully loaded with full water
A lot of people forget to add the people weight to their payload. You have to do it just like you showed as your loaded when travelling with all your gear that you’re going to take with you As you where saying about the engine brake on the diesel, with a gas engine truck going downhill turn the overdrive off or shifting to a lower gear will give you a little engine braking (not as much as a diesel) but something to help in the mountains.
nice to see that you are sharing. Back in the early 2000s when I was looking for a rig and going to RV shows Sales people do not care if you knew that someone would sell you what you would buy. My choice was to buy the max truck in a 2003 Chevy Dually 3500 with 6.6l Diesal with Alison trans in a 5-speed. make a towing cap of 22K. added a 50 gal tank which added 300 lb to the truck. then add the RV at 13000 lb with 70 gals of water at 8lb per gal 560 lb when I weighed the rig I was at 22000. on the number. but I never drive with full tanks of water. but my knowledge from DOT driver training. I have been around lots of RV's that have know bits of knowledge of weighs and how they affect one ability to control their rig.
It's useful, when weighing your truck alone, to not only have all your gear but full fuel tanks. Similarly, when weighing the trailer, to have full propane bottles, and full fresh water tanks, plus camping gear that will be carried in the trailer. Yes, you may have to get on the scales three times: one for the combined vehicle (separate axle weights), one for the truck unhitched but loaded, and one for the trailer, unhitched but loaded. And for the fifth wheelers, the tongue weight should be weighed from the hitch point, not the jack stands which are so much farther back.
So, running the numbers on our 2024 GMC 3500 Sierra Pro dually diesel and Grand Design Solitude 390RK with the 8 K axles and independent suspension gives me this: GVWR 14,000 (actual 12,500), GCWR 40,000 (actual 29,020), Front Axle WR 6,000 (actual 4,920), Rear Axle WR 10,400 (actual 7,600) Payload (adjusted for loaded truck only weight of 8,800) 5,207 (actual 4,127) and the truck seems fine. Where we are over, however is on the trailer weight, rated for 18,485, with the actual coming in at 20,220 (1,715 over), but that has a true capacity of as much as 25,000 pounds per Grand Design. We have been working to lighten the trailer weight throughout our journey and plan on dropping several hundred more over the summer in Maine at our seasonal site. Great information here, thanks!
Another thing to point out is braking power. The truck and trailer GVWR is the maximum safe limit for brake stopping capability on a level surface. Overheating brakes, brake failures are common in hill and mountain areas.
Great video and lots of good information for all of us. You are correct on the 3/4 ton trucks....just not enough payload for lots of the shorter full profile rigs like yours. I had a Ram 2500 CTD and was delighted when Alliance came out with their Avenue line, which allowed us to get one with that truck. But after pulling it for a season, I wanted a 1 ton long bed for more payload and to tow w/o a slider. So we upgraded to a Chevy 3500 CCLB DRW!!! And it is wonderful. It's way more than I need right now, but when/if we decide to upgrade campers, we are set. One thing I noticed on your set up is your hitch looks to be HEAVY!!! You might want to research the Gen Y gooseball hitch, which could reduce your weights by a few hundred pounds. Also, when you converted over to the IS system, did it increase your GVWR on your trailer since you don't have axles anymore? The IS system w/ hydraulic brakes looks to be the way to go. Thanks again for sharing with us.
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As a professional truck driver, I have actually helped many RVs scale out correctly. The number one biggest problem I see is that for some reason people like to put their tires directly on the yellow lines instead of in the Box. The second biggest issue I see is that they'll put two axles in the same box like both pickup axles or rear drive pickup and trailer. The third biggest issue I see is that they don't weigh the truck aka the tractor by itself without the trailer
agreed.....
That’s good to know, I am new to RVing and did think that lines meant “put tires here” LOL 😅
@Captain-Awesome you would be surprised, most RV's actually do make this mistake. CAT scales comprise of 3 smaller scales and the lines seperate the actual platforms. You can actually get out, look down, and see the 2 inch gap or so between the platforms so you really don't want to be between them.
It is designed for semi trucks so smaller RV's still might not be big enough to scale correctly. That can be fixed with a re weigh, re positioning on the re weigh, and alittle math.
@@MrtrenchTrucker Thank you sir!!
They don't mean put the tires here, they mean put the tires in between.@@Captain-Awesome
I am in a Ram truck forum, you would not believe what people pull with a 1500 series truck, i do believe that at least 90% of the RV's on the road are over weight.
We sure do see a lot of big RV's and small trucks! 🫣
Totally agree
I think so too
Agreed. This was a hard lesson for us to learn. Payload matters; pickup trucks run out of payload long before they run out of tow capacity. The lighter half-ton trucks typically come with P-Metric radial tires. These are wholly unsuitable for towing trailers over 20' length (ask me how I know! 😉). The solution is to swap out those city tires for LT (Light Truck) tires. We did that, and the towing dynamics and experience changed immediately! Much more stable, and we didn't get tossed all over the highway every time a semi passed us. Even in windy weather we were much more stable towing. We were right at the limit of our payload, and this one change made a significant difference. We now use a 3/4-ton for towing our 25-ft travel trailer. Much better still!
Completely believe it. There is a belief system on some forums that if you can start and stop and it “feels good” with “no problems for years”, you are good to go. Lots of see no evil, feel no evil, mindset among RV community.
Thank you for sharing your numbers, we have a Dually GMC and 41' 5th wheel.
We understand the importance of weight rating. Many people don't.
Retired truck driver here. 😎
Right on! Yes, it amazing how quickly a SRW truck can get overloaded!
Aaron I really appreciate how you explain things - the facts are always linear, at a good pace (not too fast or too slow,) and the information is clear and concise. Thank you 😊
Thanks Carman! Appreciate that! 😊
But you did not identify any particular problem or solution. Let me explain. You are only 670lb over weight on your trucks rear axle, and you are 4,420lb under the GCWR weight of 30,000lb. So, since you did not let me see the sticker on the side of your 5th wheel trailer I can't tell you for sure what the solution is but I can tell you a possible solution would be to move stuff in your trailer from the hitch towards the rear bumper. If your water tanks are in the rear of the trailer, you can keep them full. Think of your trailer as a teeter totter. This solution only works if you are under GVWR on your trailer. Also in your video at 3:58 you refer to GVWR as "Everything!" Although I know what you meant some people might confuse GVWR with GCWR, GCWR is a better description of "Everything" as in includes the maximum truck and trailer combined weight. I hope you receive this information well as I am trying to help you. Just so you know a little bit of my background. I have driven on every mile of interstate in the United States and most of Canada well over a million mile club I have driven all kinds of crazy stuff. Once I drove a 45' Prevost coach towing a jeep towing a trailer, that was fun. Here is a suggestion for a video: talk about weight distribution hitches and why you should never use them. The reason why is that the manufacturers of weight distribution hitches don't do any research into how much extra tongue weight they put on a ball coupler. When you use a weight distribution hitch it puts a very high load pushing down on the ball coupler that is attached to the ball if you have a heavy tongue weight trailer and then add a weight distribution hitch you could be way exceeding the capacity of the ball coupler and not even know it. I had this conversation with one of the manufacturers and ask them for the engineering specifications to give me that weight, when they said they didn't have it I threw away the weight distribution hitch and have never used one since. I just make sure my trailers are loaded correctly. @@IreneIronTravels
Don't forget about the tires! On the sidewall of each tire is the max load at the highest pressure rating. On my rig I was 300lbs under the rear axel max BUT only 100 lbs under the tire maxx. Tire manufacturers vary even with the same " ply" rating. Thanks for your wonderful clear explanation.
Great point! I was going to chime in about the tires as well. Generally the Gross Axle Weight Rating is limited by the tires, not the axle itself. The axles are shared sometimes shared between dually and SRW 3500/350 and are again limited by the tires.
You load evenly, run tires at max. pressure. You never see a truck driver adding or taking out air from his tires.
Yes, very true! I briefly mentioned tires, but I didn't go into detail on ours. Ironically, the Tremor comes with Goodyear duratracs that have 4,000 per tire. The standard F350 is 3750 per tire.
Also remember that many tires have speed ratings as well. Some of those are in the 63-67 mph range. If you are towing in western states with the 80mph speed limits, the real limit is what is on your tires. Often going slower ends up being faster, because you are not replacing tires. This becomes more vital the closer you get to the tire's limits.
@@tomcruse5731Yeah my 1 ton dually ram 3500 long bed is 65 front and 80 rear. Mines a 2021 with Hight output 6.7 Cummins and can tow 37,100 lbs with a gooseneck hitch. Stout trucks. It’s why you see way more Cummins doing hotshot then you do ford and Chevy/Gmc. The 2021 ram 3500 6.7 beat Ford 2021 6.7 f250/f350 in every rating.
We bought a new travel trailer last year when we paid off our 1/2 ton pup, everyone there and even the factory said our truck would tow it just fine. The trailer weight is only 5500 and our towing capacity was 10500 but the tongue weight is 840 ( Front kitchen and slide) After we had a couple scares towing it we took it to the scales and ended up we were way over on our payload and rear axle rating. Now I have a truck payment on a new 3/4 ton. Never trust the sales person that says your truck is enough for your new trailer !
If it's something that the sales rep promises, always get it in writing. If there's a problem with something, there's a warranty you can use
Weight distribution hitch?
I had a custom ordered 89 Grand Marquis with a 6,000 pound trailer rating. With load equalizing, tongue weight was limited at 750 lbs. The combined weight rating was 12,500 pounds.
@@heavenleigh111 I bet not, in fact that hitch weight probably overloads the hitch withou WD
Did the same trailer salesman, sell you your new truck also?
Aaron I am sure you are enjoying the dually while towing but not so much when not. We switched over to a dually because my F-350 SRW was all but maxed out with our fifth wheel. After having taken the fifth wheel on several trips in the last year with the dually, I much prefer the towing dynamics of the dually over the SRW. Good luck and happy camping……
So I haul a truck camper. It’s all about the Payload. It took me a changing trucks once but I learned my lesson. I run a dually now and I will always have one. The positives outweigh the negatives.
at least you learnt, most dont and wonder why they have problems, i see this with boats especially at ramps where they have a sss box car pulling a fair sized boat.
Just FYI its not all about the payload. You can still be under payload but over on your axle rating.
Copy that. I’m still 2700 under that.
We tow our 30' Airstream with a dually and I often wondered if we got too much truck. But after traveling with the setup, we're finding it works well and we feel safe with it's towing stability and most important, the ability to stop quickly and safely. BTW, great explanations on all points.
I haul horses for my daughter to show. I have always had a dually, even when I only had a 4 horse trailer. We have traveled more than 24 hours at a time to get to a show. I've always felt safe and never had a flat on the truck. Plenty on the trailer.
To big of a truck isn't a issue people think it is because they think o I'd I drop to a small truck I'll save fuel witch when towing isn't true
gordonmedley YOU can NEVER Have too much truck !!! For years I had a 97 F series Super Duty (F450) 7.3 Powerstroke diesel, It had an 11 ft flatbed for the 10 ft camper and we pulled a 2 horse Logan trailer, truck GCWR was 24500 Loaded it weighed in at 19,000 so had plenty of leway and never had a problem and we did a lot of mountain work, Had lots of crazy comments "Think you got enough truck ???" NOPE !!!! Just right !!!
I once saw a Toyota Sienna pulling a 30 ft. Airstream on the interstate. Scary!
Good informative video! We went through the exact same issue. The old truck was a F250 Gas Tremor with 2700lb payload and a Grand Design 2930RL with 2100lb dry pin weight.
With just me in the truck, full fuel tank, 200lbs of tools, hitch and your usual stuff in the trailer, cloths, bathroom stuff, no water in tanks, no washer/dryer, some food, 300lb solar system, put us 1700lb over our payload rating!!! Total surprise from the "wise" guidance on the RV forums, "everything is fine" attitude.
Even with the new SRW 2023+ Super Duty's and their 7000lb rear GWAR, 4000lb payload numbers will not support this 35ft RV. We were stuck buying a dually. General rule of thumb seems to be, if you are towing a fifth wheel with a DRY 2000lb+ pin weight, you're most likely in dually territory. FYI, F350 dually rear axle rating is 9900lbs.
I’ve seen several videos on the GVWR and tow capacity topic, and I was pretty sure I had a handle on it. But Aaron I want to thank you for this video. This was by far the clearest and most helpful breakdown I’ve seen. Nicely done. 👍
Totally agree!
Hear, hear!
Well thank you! Appreciate you watching! 😊
Excellent video, I think this is the first one I’ve seen covering this topic that was clear, didn’t go to far off topic and stated the information in a way inexperienced people could understand. We own a trucking company specializing in heavy haul so just by experience I’ve always watched for peoples setups and see a ton of them that are clearly overloaded. Another thing often overlooked is some states require special drivers license endorsements. Nevada for example requires either a class J endorsement or class A CDL (or non commercial) for anything being towed that weighs over 10k pounds.
Anyone else think it’s funny Chris is promoting her fitness business after a video of the rig being overweight ? 🤪😂❤️
Should have been the commercial half-way through.
Thats actually really funny! 😆 We didn't put that together till now! 🤣
😂
Great job explaining how to get your axles weight right, being a retired truck driver, I've seen alot of over weight or not "balanced weight" accidents, trucks and rvs, most often people don't check anything out and just hook up and go, in most states, DOT will give you a big fine on top of clean up and repair damages you caused on the highway and hopefully you didn't kill anyone, so 10 to 12 dollars and 30 minutes, could help you travel safely...Thanks, can't to see you're next video, hopefully others are sharing this one and you're next.
A lot of good comments. When buying don't trust any of the Sales folks at the trailer lots. LOL I've been RV'er pulling, hauling etc since I was 16 and now 72. Was a Program Design Engineer for one of big 3, we have to know the DOT spec,s. they are there for a reason. Also, Test Engineer for Army on 10-ton and above heavy trucks. ( University of Michigan Engineering has a class, "Design for Trucking" ) It was a great class and you get to very loads in different types of Trailers, as well as the tractor, weight, Balance, center of Gravity, and placement. Just commenting look around there are probably other places that do it as well as any local or State Changes in towing. The axle to axle, tires, the center of Gravity, etc and balanced load are very important. So, I am used to weights and assuring one axle is not overloaded to the other axles. Good job, I also weigh my vehicles as you would be surprised what you accumulate LOL. I have years ago been through some of the same comments I see below. Been told I had enough truck well lucky for me some of my family were truckers and I listened and learned way back from them. Can't say enough more time should be spent doing what was done here and getting folks to everytime they hook up loads change, tires, etc. Everytime I get out at a rest area or fuel I walk around mine to see what I may not feel or notice.... Job and Information well done on this video
We’ve been down this road as well. There are a lot of terms and what they represent to learn when planning to tow a rig. Unfortunately there are a lot of keyboard experts that spread bad information. Your video was well done. Our first truck purchase was an F250 CCLB with the 6.7 L diesel engine. The “truck expert” at the dealership assured us it would handle the fifthwheel we were looking at. (Yes we gave home all the numbers). The. RV salesman agreed that the F250 would be just what we needed. So we bought the truck. Thankfully we learned more about what all the numbers meant before we bought the fifth wheel too. Our payload of only 1926# would not have been enough for the rig we were looking at. We ended up buying a tt instead, due to the low payload.
A few years later we bought a new 2023 F350 CCLB with the 7.3 L gas motor and 4.30 gears. I spec’d the truck out for maximum payload and towing capability.
GAWR Front axle 5990#
GAWR Rear axle 7230#
GVWR 11,900#
Payload. 4631#
Fifthwheel towing
Max Pin Wt. 3195#
Max Trailer rating 21,300#
These numbers are specific to my truck vin, directly from ford.
If only the original “truck expert” had suggested the right truck for what we wanted to do, it would have saved us time, money and lots of angst. Since I wasn’t going to make that mistake twice, I spent a lot of time researching each rating. So you aren’t alone in this…
Safe travels
How has the experience been going from diesel to gas? Just guessing here, but I would think you went from higher torque and lower trailer weight, to a combo with less torque and more tailer weight. Do you tow at higher elevations or through mountains?
@@iwwqytv yes, you are correct. The F250 with the 6.7 L diesel had a lot of torque but minimal payload. Our 2023 F350 with the 7.3 L gas motor and 4.30 gears has a lot of torque too, just not as much as the diesel. Yes the diesel is better but the gas motor does the job nicely. We towed a 8100# tt over the Rockies a couple of months ago. It handled it just fine. We just picked up our new Rockwood R371RK fifthwheel yesterday. It’s currently at just over 11,000# empty. It towed just fine driving from Elkhart IN to Milwaukee WI. No big hills but I’m not worried. It was still zippy on the highway and off the line. We are headed out west next week. I will know more then but I really don’t see a need. The only thing I miss is getting fuel at truck stops with my tsd card. It let me use truck lanes with high volume pumps. It filled my 48 gal tank really quick and the lanes were easy to navigate with the truck and trailer. I do miss that but otherwise I am happy with my truck trailer combo. It’s all about what you are pulling and what your expectations are.
I wasn't aware that Ford still offered the V-10 gas motor in F350's.
As far as missing the commercial vehicle pump use, there are *some* truck stops and highway service plazas that have gasoline available in the truck areas. Certainly much more comfortably accessible for people towing big trailers. 👍
@@125AXer the 7.3 L is a large V8 gas motor. It is available in F250’s and
F350’s
@@pathoppe Well, I'll be darned, I haven't been paying attention for a while, it seems. Thanks for the info.
My 2023 F-350 crew cab lariat srw with the 7.3 gas motor has a payload capacity of 4,390 lbs with a gvwr of 11,900. Keep in mind the diesel is wonderful, but does lower the truck's payload because it's heavier.
My 2022 350 diesel is rated at 12400 not 11900. They may have increased the weight rating on the diesels. I did look at the charts for all models and trims awhile back. The short box vs the long box and the 2wd vs the 4wd all have different GVRW. Mine is a 4wd long bed crew cab and that’s probably factored in also.
@@Californians_go_home Agree - all that additional metal and options get heavy. We have a Ram 3500 Laramie dually diesel crew cab long bed with lots of bells and whistles, but our payload capacity is still only around 5,100 lbs. A base model 3500 dually with the hemi engine has a payload of around 7,700 lb.
@@user-su6kq7cv2s I have learned you can have the weight rating on your truck de rated if you are trying to stay under a certain rating for commercial purposes. Found it interesting. Depending on how your truck was ordered from the factory, you can have options that increase the payload capacity and the door tag will reflect that. Most F350’s I believe ship at 11900, mine was special ordered by a guy that never took delivery and my tag says 12400. I believe it was ordered with a specified rating . Only a guess.
I've watched quite a few of these RV weight type videos, and I think you knocked it out of the park. You explained the numbers as simply as possible. Much appreciated.
Great video and information! Another thing to consider is if you are ever in an accident and you are overweight, you will have a lot more headaches with insurance and liability.
Glad to see this video. Way too many people thinking their loaded up Platinum or Limited trim level trucks can tow the maximum advertised weights they show on the commercials and advertisements. In reality you're looking at a XL regular cab with an 8 ft box 2WD to get those numbers, which nobody is buying. I'd be willing to bet that a large majority of people towing these massive 5th wheels with their high trim level crew cabs are way, way over their payload and GVWR.
Yep higher the trim level the lower the towing capacity and payload capacity.
Yup. I see people going by the sticker on their hitch and not the mfg tables based on their trim and wheelbase.
Exactly, each manufacturer has a towing guide pdf with every cab/bed/powertrain/drivetrain/gearing configuration. People don't realize those numbers are for the ABSOLUTE most BASIC truck you can get with not a SINGLE option other than any listed as required. What's on there is still your trucks Gross Combined, regardless of trim, but payload will limit you(idc what any of these smarties say about "oh it doesn't matter, the axles are rated for it!" yeah, it doesn't matter, until it does matter).
My 2020 LTZ 3500 is rated for 31500 per sticker on the door from GM so nice that they put that there 😊
The real discrepancy is that J2807 tow ratings are based on 15% pin weight for goosenecks, and only 400 pounds of people + gear in the cab. (In this scenario, J2807 requires the TV to be within GVWR at the stated tow rating. So it really has nothing to do with options.) RVers don't travel that way. Higher pin weight percentages and more gear in the truck is why payload capacity isn't easy to hit for many (but not all) trucks before hitting other metrics.
Manufacturers swayed J2807 this way because it's a marketing tool, and bigger numbers make for better marketing.
Great Numbers, and information that RV people should know. I recently went to the Seattle and Tacoma RV shows and had quite a few salesman try to sell me fifth wheels that were way over what my truck can handle (2500) all they want is to be able to sell something. They don’t care if you can safely pull it or not.
100% true! When we were looking for a class c, I focused on the OCCC and was stunned When the salesman said he didn't know what the OCCCwas the salesman and claimed to be in the business for years. What a liar. I left Camping World and will never buy any RV from them. Oh, We did buy a Winnebago View had an independent dealership and happy with it ...Just have to watch the weight.
@@earlhunt2815 do the research on your own and you will know more than the salesman.
No matter what they are selling all salespeople make their living telling lies. Head into the service dept and see if they can talk to you about what you are looking at can do.
A local reputable RV dealer wouldn't sell a trailer to a buyer who came in with a 1/2 ton pickup to tow it. The buyer was not willing to accept the fact that his pickup wasn't adequate for the tongue weight. They told him that they would not send him out with their trailer attached to the pickup he had. They certainly earned my respect.
Most of them don't have a clue also trailer manufacturers have been pushing "half ton towable"
This is a very important topic! We were shocked when we went down this confusing learning curve. Keep up the good job you're sharing with all of us. The trailer people just want to sell trailers and the truck people do the same.
Awesome job providing the basics on understanding how your rig's weight works in relationship with the combined truck and 5th wheel weights. "Yes" this issue is discussed on every form of social media. Your explanations may cause several viewers to hop on the scales and see for themselves. F.Y.I. = I weigh our setup EVERY-TIME we roll out! Sadly, many are going to find out that their RV dealership who told them that their truck was rated to pull that trailer they are preparing to buy or just bought; are going to find they are over their max weights. Especially the so-called "Half Ton" 5th wheel trailers being pulled by a "1500 or 150" half ton truck. Like a vast majority that we see on the road on a regular basis. ... Great job on the video!
I am also a professional driver and drove for Old Dominion for 15 years. I think this is the very best video and you did an outstanding job of explaining it. I always knew I needed at least a 1 ton truck and at least this explains it and I’ll be showing this to my wife so that she understands what the limitations are. You should know I’m subscribe to you and I enjoy your channel.
As an oilfield truck driver I was routinely overweight at least 5 k 😊
The more oil I moved the more $ I made!
Where are you hauling at?
I'm a stickler for towing numbers. I tow a 33 foot camper with my f150. I have slightly upgraded a few things like brakes and springs to make the towing experience easier. But I still tow within my factory tow specs. Its important to know that buying helper springs and drilled and slotted towing rotors doesn't change your factory tow ratings. Be safe out there. Not just for you and your family, but also for the family driving beside you.
If you get a slider 5th wheel hitch or set up to move it forward or back you can distribute the weight in your truck and make your weights as we say axle out properly. I build all my trucks with more than one hitch location. So I can make things legal.
Nope. The 3600 pounds of hitch weight is still 3600 pounds added to the truck, so it is still over GVWR, regardless of the hitch position. The rear axle load could be reduced by sliding the hitch forward, but GVWR will still be exceeded, and front GAWR might be exceeded as well.
@@brianb-p6586 DONT FORGET AXLE WEIGHT, YOU CAN BE WITHIN THE VEHICLE SPECS AND BE OVER ON AN AXLE DO TO WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION.
Thanks for video I’m new to rv life just ordered a new bumper pull camper and bought a bigger truck to pull it with people thought I was crazy adding up the weights of my kids car seats and my wife and I to make sure I had enough truck for us plus gear this video to me proves I’m not so crazy
I’m a professional truck driver and full time RV’er. I have a one ton duality that’s been used for slide in camper, bumper pull and fifth wheel. I have a stack of scale tickets in my truck right now documenting past and present vehicle weights. I love doing it. Any change in configuration is celebrated with another trip to the scale. I can show you anal attention to detail AND flagrant stupidity (yeah, despite doing it for a living) The easiest rating to overlook and violate is tire rating. Fine, you made yourself aware of your units GVW ratings and stand ahead of the majority of people out there, but can the rubber beneath it stand the load? and are your tires properly inflated? The second easiest to overlook is hitch ratings. Oh how we collectively beat up our hitches. Glad this guy focused on weight distribution on tow vehicle. If too much of the weight is on the drive axle, or leveraged off the steer axle (bumper pull I’m looking at you)…surprise! Cannot steer, especially in wet or freezing conditions.
The best description of this process I’ve seen. Thank you for taking the time. I’ve used a cat scale to prove I was not overloaded when I had to have my 5th wheel axles bent back into alignment. I was okay, but just barely. But my RV is a 2004 model that just needed persuaded back into alignment. Tires wearing even now.
I bet that it was a Thor & they didn't stand by their (no)warranty.
@@ronstrong9560 it’s a Keystone, but it’s a 2004. Warranty ran out 18 years ago.
You learned the hard way that the Tremor trim was not intended to be a towing machine. This is why I ordered a CCLB Lariat, maximum GAWR/GVWR SRW option.
I'm amazed at the people I meet that have never did this. We have basically the same set you have but our 5th wheel is only 30 feet. We travel pretty light and when we got out new camper, we purged a lot of stuff we never used. I took ours to the scale when we first got it and made sure it was fully loaded. We are way under our GVW non all axles and hitch. This was very good information and I hope others watch it.
11:40 You've got your arrow pointed at the 2-wheel drive (4x2) column. The correct number for your short-bed 4x4 Tremor is one column to the right of that and shows 21,900 for Tremor (footnote 6). That said, I realize that the other numbers like GVWR and GAWR are where the problem is.
Yes, thank you! I missed that on the small print! 🤣 21,900👍
Actually you're limited to 19K based on the 5th wheel hitch. Footnote #4 That 21,900 is for goose neck. @@IreneIronTravels
So, it appears you were over weight, did you trade in on a dually? We had srw too and traded it. I feel much safer with the dually and better ride
Great video! I was commercial truck for 17 years prior to this. I have approximately 1.5 million safe miles my under my belt and I like to think that I have enough valid insight and experience to chime in here.
I did some hauling with my 07 F350 SRW with a (modified for improved towing) 6.0 Powerstroke that was quite heavy on two occasions around 7-8 years ago. I remember scaling about 200-ish lbs heavy on the rear axle of my ford with a 12,000lb (dry/empty) tri axle dually gooseneck trailer (that's a mouth full). My loaded weight was 34,700lbs and some change. I made two loaded 1500 mile trips and two 1500 mile trips with the trailer unloaded. My truck handled it just fine during that window but there was definitely noticeable wear on it. Being a single rear wheel truck, I ended up using most of the available tire life on relatively new E load rated tires. While I was impressed with the power my truck had, it was clear that I was pushing things. Today's diesel trucks are far more powerful and, for that reason, I feel that the newer diesels can give some people false confidence and get them into trouble.
After its all said and done, your rig needs to do more than pull your trailer. That is what makes the info in this video so important. You NEED to be able to stop, control your load going downhill (the importance of this cannot be overstated) turn safely, fit in to places and there isn't always a level place to park. Even though I was only marginally over on my drive axle and well under the load capacity of my trailer, I was well over my max towing capacity. The heavier you make it, the more things that can wrong and you increase the likelihood that bad things can occur. I got away with it and no longer haul anything.
Exactly, most of my 1/2 ton friends brag how their truck is capable of towing. But they put their fingers in their ears when I ask how it's going to handle if they get hit, have to stop, or have a blowout.
@@tpaul340women never listen. I’m assuming they are women because they have 1/2 ton trucks. Wait I’m wrong, it’s 2024, the gals drive the one tons, the boys drive the console shifter eco boosts.
Good info. I watched payload very closely when I purchased our new trailer last fall. We are close, but o.k. Towing a trailer with a GVRW of 6,933 lbs. with a Silverado 1500 with tow package and payload of 1,755 lbs. We have 100+ lbs of cushion. Trailer and truck tow very nicely. The torsion bar suspension on the Rockwood Mini Lite is excellent. Braking is smooth and powerful on the truck and the trailer.
How does it handle going over and down mountain passes?
What are your tire ratings?
Have not had it on mountain passes as yet. I towed our previous trailer, which weighed about 500 lbs less, out to PA and back last summer, about 3.500 miles. The PA turnpike has a few grades, but nothing like the mountains in the west. Living in MN, most of our travel will not be in the mountains. Don't know the specific ratings, but my truck has Goodyear Wrangler All Terrain Kevlar tires. The trailer has Goodyear Endurance. Been towing travel trailers on Goodyear Wranglers of different flavors since 2011. Never had an issue with truck or trailer tires. @@mmmd3429
Definitely Under Trucked Lol 100lbs of cushion, 100 lbs of cushion is you fooling yourself into believing that you're not a danger to Yourselves, but you need to at a minimum a 3/4 ton with towing packages etc.
Then, you will have an appropriate Cushion.
So true, so true! If he was at 75% of max tow or hitch weight and 100#’s over, that’s one thing, but to be within 100#’s of max ratings. No way! OMG! Unless I am reading that wrong? @@timsmothers8740
I'm glad to hear you decided to weigh everything, I feel more than 60% don't. Here's a quick way to tell if you're towing too much, like in your case as well as everyone else who may not know if it looks like your truck is doing a wheelie after you hook up, you are towing too much.
Just a note: He says that front axle loads don't really matter. If you install your fifth wheel hitch or gooseneck ball in front of the rear axle you will add weight to the front axle. In fact, it should be installed in front of the rear axle. If you have too much weight on the rear axle you may be able to move your hitch point forward to shift weight and correct that. (I've done this on my own truck, it actually drives a lot better with more weight on the front axle.)
Thank you for being a responsible tower and taking the tome to help people who may not know to understand
One big thing to remember is that all liquids count -- gas, diesel, propane, fresh water, gray water, black water etc. Thanks - this video was full of great info.
Yes! 😊👍
DEF too!
Count as what?
The weight of extra items need taken into consideration. If you have 2, 40 lb propane bottles make sure they are full. Same with water. If you are boondocking and fill your water tank have it full when you weigh. I was told weigh full of fresh water and weigh, drop the water and weigh again so I know how 50 gallons of water affects all the axle weights. Basically load the thing up to the heaviest it will be. If you are over then figure out what you need to reduce. The RV dealers that say do not worry they don't stop RVs are bullshit artists. They can stop you any where and if you're overweight you are screwed. Need a video of what happens when you are overweight and idea of what the fines are. USA is broke and checking RV weight is low hanging fruit for highway funds!!!
Yep that’s why truckers get weighed before and after fueling. If dot limit is 80k pounds and the total weight before fuel is 79500 you can get 450-475 pounds of fuel.
I remember when I was a kid, back in the late 60s. My dad and other people would hook up the travel trailer to the family sedan or station wagon. I don't think that there were all these numbers to think about but what I do know is people weren't going 70,75, or 80 mph.
Thanks for broaching this topic! As you said it doesn't get enough attention. Perhaps your mini series should include individual tire weigh offered by Escapees. In my opinion it is a much better option as it ensures weight distribution from side to side is factored in.
Great suggestion, thanks Neil! I actually talked about Escapees Weigh Safe, but cut it out of the video as I was trying to not make it too long winded. We have friends that did that and it really is a great option. I knew I should have kept it in!
So this is something that we do every time we travel. We always make sure we’re not overweight on either the truck axles or the trailer axles. Since I have a single rear wheel 3500 I also had to make sure that the tires would add up to whatever weight rating had on the rear axles. if you’re looking for the highest rated tires, they are the Toyo AT3 LT 295, 6520. each tire has a weight rating of 4080 pounds this is the highest rated tire. I can find out of every brand tire.
I'll be interested in your next video explaining what you are going to do. I have the same truck you do and I'm pulling a Brinkley Z3100. We just changed over from a class A motorhome, so I don't think we have yet loaded our 5th wheel to the hilt! We used to have a camper on the truck, and for that, I added airbags. Don't know if that just helps level the ride, or increases capacity. Look forward to your comments. Thanks for all the work you do putting together these videos. You're a great couple!
Thanks Appreciate you watching! You should be ok if you stay south of 15k. But again so many variables, with how much weight you put in the truck with people, pets, gear and hitch.And you wont 100% know till you weigh. The airbags do help level your truck which improves drivability and safety, but will not increase your capacity at all. So you could still be overloading your truck with airbags on.
Air bags only help to level your truck. They don’t give you any more cargo capacity.
Many folks are over weight and have no idea they are.
Airbags will carry some of the load that the suspension was carrying before. That will give your suspension more capacity. However, the total load from both is carried by the axles and tires which have no increased capacity. If you put on higher capacity wheels and tires you’ll eventually hit another limit like lug nuts or bearings.
You can have a problem if you get too much truck as well. The 5th wheel was designed to be hauled by a certain truck and suspension. The suspension of an F750 is way too stiff for a 5th wheel frame. The 350 goes over a pothole and moves 3” while the 750 moves 1” (just an illustration).
@@rnordquest All arbags do is keep the truck level; they DO NOT increase any load capacity
My father was a mechanic for a large construction company and was up on the dot regulations for there trucks he has always talked about how no one ever looks at there tire load range so nice job mentioning that
Sir, you are spot on, when I had my 1 ton Chevy Duramax Long bed towing a 2023 North Point 310RLTS I was about 150lbs from maxing out my RAWR, I had a 7250lbs and was 150lbs left to go. My GVWR was 12,300lbs for my long bed, I was good on the other weight rating, but I didn't like the fact that I had only 150lbs left so I just move up to a 1 ton dually and I'm glad I did because we might be moving up a little in getting another 5th wheel later but for now I like that specs on our setup. This was a helpful video for me and I'm sure for other also, and yes you are so right I have seen a lot of 3/4 truck towing what seem like over weight 5th wheel towing cross-country a few times you see a lot as you know.
One of the best videos I have watched about that subject 👍
I have read too much nonsense on many forums about the maximum towing rating of trucks only that I decided to share your video rather than trying to re-explain the same thing over and over again.
Cheers
Phil
Well thank you! Appreciate that!
We have friends who have been traveling since 1990. At one point they had moved up to a 5th wheel 2 axle trailer smaller than yours which was pulled by a Chevy pickup. Shortly after putting this combination on the road they had a tire blowout on one tire on the trailer while cruising at speed on a four lane freeway doing 60 mph. There was a significant control issue immediately following the blowout which did not lead to driving off the road or forced lane crossing, either of which could have bee fatal. It was a very harrowing experience though. When they were able to get to the nearest RV repair facility to effect repairs on the damage to the trailer, one of the senior staff members had a serious conversation about puling a 5th wheel trailer with a pickup truck like theirs that did not have dual rear wheels. He pointed out that had the blowout occurred on either of the rear tires of their tow vehicle, they most likely would have lost control immediately with very serious injuries or fatalities as a result. Not to mention the destruction of one or both vehicles. After a long discussion and other consultations with other sources they made a very well informed decision to trade in their nearly new truck on a truck with duel tires for many more years of safe traveling. I am very surprised you did not even mention this at all.
Having the trailer brake level adjusted properly will make a huge difference under those circumstances!
Good job explaining the weights, lot's of people do not understand how they work.
Eyeballing you can see the truck is definitely at the edge. Bags or heavier springs would help, although they won't increase axle rating, but it will help handling in more extreme circumstances.
Although the truck would weigh a little more I suspect a long box may actually work better if the hitch was set up correctly as you can put a little more weight on the front axle.
All the 5th wheel hitches I have had were mounted 2” in front of the rear axle centerline so that a small part of the trailer king pin weight was transferred to the front axle. EMPTY WEIGHT of a truck includes a full tank of fuel also.
I agree, that couple of inches transfers a small amount of the 5th wheel to the trucks front axle. If you are lucky enough to have a sliding 5th wheel hitch you can finesse how much weight you put on the trucks front axle to obtain a "solid feel" when towing. Always double check though because adding any more weight to the front of the towed 5th wheel will add a little to the trucks front axle. Stay alert, stay safe and happy trails! (Retired CDL driver and accredited community college instructor)
Another top notch video from you guys! I can't wait to see how you address this issue in your next video.
I have a 25' Airstream Globetrotter that I used to tow with an Infinity QX80 (until I visited a CAT scale). While we were officially under the advertised "Towing Capacity" of the SUV, we couldn't put anything inside without going over the GVWR. We upgraded to a RAM 2500 with 6.4 HEMI. The nearly 3,000 lb payload of the truck can easily handle anything we put in the bed, plus the 1,000 lb tongue wt. My loaded tongue wt is about 150 lbs higher than factory specs because I have a 900 Ah lithium bank and Victron Multiplus II (I learned how to do this install in part from your videos). I recently did an experiment to determine the effect of using a weight distribution hitch vs leveling the truck with air suspension. I'd be happy to send you my numbers which would be applicable to folks with 3/4 ton trucks and bumper pull setup.
Keep up the great work!
Thanks for the video. This is one of the reasons I opted for a gas engine. I increased my payload rating.
This is great information, which many folks are unaware of or choose to ignore. waiting for the day when “Truck Inspection Ahead” includes RVs.
Exactly why we got an F350 Dually to pull our Paradigm 310RL. My payload is 5564# and GVWR is 14K#. Safe travels kids!
Smart move!
I am a former trucker. 😊
Those numbers are not for a 350 Ford. Maybe a 450 or 550.
@@johnirwin1837 I can assure you those are the real numbers on the stickers on our 2019 F350 dually.
@@johnirwin1837F550 is way higher. But getting into the class 5 comes with insurance costing more depending upon what state. Commercial insurance policies are not cheap.
That’s the genius of the weight distributing hitch on a travel trailer setup. Moves a few hundred pounds from the rear axle to the front axle.
30 years ago, I was a heavy duty mechanic. When I saw the clip of you pulling the RV, I noticed your front end was a little high. To me, that suggested you were heavier than desired. I called that, "front end dancing."
💯 I worked at ups. They got a batch of new single axle ch 612 macks tractors in the late 90s early 2000s. The all did the front end dancing. They went thru tires like crazy. The tires would get choppy and slap the highway wobble at highways speeds
I weighed my truck and travel trailer in 2019 and bought a new truck the next year before traveling again. Yes it was very much overweight on the drive axle even with the anti sway and leveling hitch. I also changed wheels and tires on the trailer and made some adjustments. My rig is so much easier to drive now.
A Long box would help move some of that hitch weight to the front tires.
No; the hitch still sits over the rear axle (the reason you do not need a slider hitch with a long bed truck)
Very good video! This is why I bought the 3500 DRW - the truck isn’t any issue for weights. But so easy to top out the 5th wheel. A free ton, if you have it in the rv, isn’t as much as you think
Excellent video Aaron, such important information that many need to pay attention to. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I know my truck and what it can do. It tows just fine, no problems." That generally means I don't need no stinkin Cat Scales.
I pulled 35,000 lbs with a 93 f250. Pulled it fine right up to 70mph no struggle.. Couldn't stop though
Lmao
😂😂😂😂
No reason to be near 70mph
@@duckwacker8720 it was the speed limit
@@josephrichter826 THE speed limit should be based on your towing a trailer Along with the speed rating on your trailer tires. The speed rating on your trailer tires should be the max speed you drive, For your safety and others on the road. 😊
Thanks for creating such a clear and informative video - this was great. One small suggestion: while your method for calculating gross trailer weight certainly works, it is much easier and more intuitive to simply take the gross weight of the Truck and RV combo and subtract the gross weight of the truck. Using your numbers, that would be 25,580 - 8,840 = 16,740. No need to do all the math with the axle weights!
I'm curious how many people will argue with me about this FMCSA Law. Class B*: Any single vehicle which has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight that does not exceed 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).
Your trailer is over 10,000 lbs. Does Chrissy have a Class B CDL? This is a Federal law, NOT a State law. Can't wait to see the comments about this.
I guess that I'll be the first to argue with you. I don't drive my motorhome for commercial purposes, so FMCSA regulations do not apply to me. I *am*, however, required to have the proper state-issued license for the vehicle that I drive. Different states have different requirements. My state of residence, Texas, has non-commercial class A and B licenses with requirements that are a subset of FMCSA requirements for class A and B CDLs, but these are very specifically "non-commercial" licenses. Many people don't understand the distinction between license classes (A, B, C, etc.) and commercial vs. non-commercial. Where is gets particularly confusing is when someone is making money on the road via RVing, such as making money off of RUclips videos about RVing. Does that mean that a commercial driver's license is required? Other states have exemptions for RVing and do not require anything other than a regular license, regardless of RV weight. The bottom line is to make certain that you have the correct license (class and commercial/non-commercial) for your state of residence and how you are using your RV.
Here in Canada, for the larger 5th wheels you need a special license class rating, you take a course and have a driver's exam for it as well. It the "non commercial " light version of the license requirements
You are correct, I talked about this with our county sheriff (pop 500k), he stated that they don’t bother with RVers with this issue.
Many don’t have the correct license. If the trailer is over 10k it’s a class a license. If over 26k but less than 10k trailer-it’s class b. Then the endorsements like air brakes for a class a rv if they have them or double for towing a 5th wheel with a boat. These are non CDL for personal use. Just look at your drivers license to see what your able to drive legally.
But once it’s for profit, it’s CDL. Depending on what you’re driving, you don’t need a class a CDL. For example, driving a truck and trailer under 26k and trailer under 10k but the trailer has a tank over 119gals with fuel. Now you’re required to have hazmat and tanker endorsements.
Yep! In AR a personal RV at 26,001 with air brakes requires a CDL. Most of my family has CDLs, but we do warn the younger generation about the rules since they help drive.
There are exceptions to that rule. I have my class A CDL with all the endorsements except hazmat, I don't need any CDL to drive any camper/travel/or toy hauler. I know cops that don't even know the law and are misinformed.
Probably should show the other sticker on the door jam (yellow with the tire on it) It actually shows your payload number. This is important as it compensates for the trim level of your truck. There's also one on your trailer.
I’ve always gone with payload weight in my calculations, because it is said that you’ll break your payload weight be for your tow weight. I do thank you for this information about cat scales because I will double check my calculations when I get my trailer back out this summer.
If you read the rating properly you will see that the vehicle ratings are shown for Goosneck couplings in the table
- Note 4 states that 5th wheel couplings are limited to a max of 19000 lb (as opposed to your stated 20900 lb that you got from within the table
I weigh mine , truck only full tank , truck with 5th wheel toy hauler camper.
Toy haulers are heavier on the pin weight due to the design of the extra ton of cargo that goes in the back garage.
If not enough cargo weight in the back , the pin weight is heavyier.
If close on the rear axle weight of the tow vehicle , add more weight to the very rear of camper cargo area reduces weight on the pin.
Also to help truck tow better , add a good set of air bags to the rear axle of tow vehicle to make everything sit and tow level.
I installed 10 ply tires on both the 5th wheel camper toy hauler AND 10 ply tires on the tow vehicle.
I tow the camper with ALL tanks empty.
GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Every Rver should load up their Rv to the gills like you are going on a 2 week trip, fill ALL your tanks, waste too, then scale it. each wheel separately too. Record these numbers as you will forget and want to reference these numbers in years to come.
ALSO, lay a long stick across the high point of your Rv THEN measure the underside to the pavement to know your Rv height.
THE MORE YOU KNOW...
!
Great video breakdown on the GVW & axle weights.
Truck Driver for 30+ years and alot of people do not understand these numbers
I had a good understanding of all these weights prior to your video, but you did a great job of explaining. Hopefully a lot of people are learning from this.
If you moved your 5th wheel forward, you could shift more weight onto the front axle. Then you just need to move some of the trailer's weight to the rear of the trailer to take 900 lbs off the truck to stay under GVWR. On semi trailers you can slide the trailer axles forward to transfer weight from the tractor to the trailer to get everything to scale out.
I like to keep a little spread sheet on my phone with all of my truck's specific weight ratings. That way when I hit the scales at a truck stop I can plug those numbers in and it will highlight in red for me if I'm over any of them
For me, I have a 2014 RAM 3500 dually, and the one rating I typically come closest to when towing is the tire weight capacities and RV GCWR.
It is also a helpful view to know if your RV weight is distributed properly inside the rig. I tend to pack the back end too heavy, and that's unsafe as well even though it's technically within spec.
I only cook with cast iron. My first trailer had no slides, so the side my kitchen was on had too much weight. On travel days I had to redistribute my cookware to even out my side to side weight.
The best weight system for RV’s is Smart weigh at the Escapees RV parks. It’s also the tires and age of tires. It also gives you the weight on each tire. You will also get advice on how to correct any problems.
When we had our 8,000 lb. independent suspension & disk brakes installed at MorRyde this past summer, they opined that, while the IS and beams are a bit heavier than the axels they replace, the weight is carried below the RV frame, and as such should not be counted against the GVWR (except where tires and wheels are concerned I suppose).
The key point is also weight distribution, not only weight. More weight in the back of the trailer means less weitght on the hitch. Anything that you add behind the axle actually lifts up the hitch. Same with the location of the hitch on the truck bed. If it is behind the axle, you add more weight to the rear axle load than the actual weight on the hitch.
Great video. When my wife wanted us to move up from a 35' bumper unit to a 5th wheel 2021 Columbus 388FK. I knew we needed a new truck. I took a picture of all the stickers, sat at the computer to see what the trucks were actually licenced to tow. The factory says the pin weight is 2500lb with 2 7000lb axels GVWR was just under 17,000. 13'4" & 41' 13000lb Dry weight
I opted for a 2021 Ram 3500 Limited Mega cab 4x4 Dually. By the time I had everything in the unit my pin weight was 4239lb
The base weight on the front axel is 5014lb (with trailer 5620lb) max is 6000lb. The rear axel base is 3181lb (with trailer 7420lb) max 9750lb. With a total towing weight of 33260lb. Therefore we are within our limits but I say just within them. People may not want the dually's but if your going to do it right most high trailers will need them just for pin weight and side wind control. Bottom line trust no one... They don't pay the fine YOU DO
FYI in Ontario Canada...you can pull a 20000lb trailer down the road with anything (stupid) We see it all the time here. half ton pulling a big unit up the highway...Headlights aimed at the moon, rear bumper dragging on the road. It's all good until they find out after they crash and kill someone, and the insurance say's NO you were over loaded. Many dealers said our 2500 was good.
BE SAFE FOLLOW THE VIDEO
We were looking at a Montana 5th wheel, but bought a 36' Keystone Arcadia 5th wheel instead. The hitch weight on the Montana was 2400 pounds and the Arcadia is about 1850. My Ram 2500 (8K pounds net) has the diesel and because the engine weight is so much, I can only have 2K pounds in the bed. The Montana tongue weight overloaded my truck, while the Arcadia gives me a chance of being within limits with 15 to 20% tongue weight on roughly 11K+ pound trailer. Cheers, Scott
I like the way you presented this- saying how it can seem like everything is ok but you don’t really know until you do the math.
All very good points, i keep trying to tell everyone my truck is almost overloaded with my current setup. I had a salesman try and sell me a Ram 2500 after i came in to inquire about a 5500!
Good info! Americans really do love those giant caravans / rvs.
Also a trick to consider if you want to know hitch weight, when doing your second weigh, don’t drop the trailer in a parking spot, drop it on the rear scale, then you can see exactly how much weight the trailer is “losing” ie transferring to trucks hitch
if you pull a trailer with an equilizer, you'll want to do a 3rd weight-in. 1st do the whole rig like in the video. the 2nd, unhitch the equalizer but leave the trailer attached. 3rd, pull to a safe parking area and drop the trailer. calculate the weight the equalizer has on front axle. that will be your tongue weight
You have to build the uses case for your truck 1st. Ours was 1st overlander build for family of 3, 2nd tow rig for 2 show/race cars in a 15,000 GVWR trailer. Payload comes in handy when you're optioning your truck. It's a great way to separate must haves from nice to haves. The options we went with on the 7.3 gas F250 Tremor Lariat, put our Tare weight 7080, GVWR 10,000, payload 2920, 5th wheel 18,500, FT GAWR 4800, RR GAWR 6340. The diesel engine and glass roof weight, would have eaten away at the truck's rated capability more than the doubled torque numbers from the diesel added.
How you spec your trailer and how you pack it out makes all the difference. If you have a front kitchen, you are starting out with a huge disadvantage when you play this game. To move weight off of the rear axle of your truck, simply put the weight over or behind the trailer axles. Just don’t exceed the axle/tire rating of the trailer. Stow as much of your loose stuff there and it will help you out tremendously.
So in TX, your 1ton truck is limited registration wise to 10,000lb GVWR, or was the case several years ago. I had a friend who was ticketed for being overweight by Tx DPS. He was actually ticketed twice from what he was telling me. The trooper gave him one then the state sent him one. He was driving a 1 ton DRW towing a trailer with 2 Jeeps. Myself I weighed my combination 16,500 lbs Excursion 7.3, trailer & Jeep
Great break down. Yes it is that important and I'll be looking at your other videos. We learned a bunch buying a truck camper and needing to two an enclosed trailer with motorcycles or side by side with that same truck with the truck camper in the bed on a 2024 GMC Sierra 3500 diesel.
1. The RV dealers will lie through their teeth about what your truck can handle so they are not to be trusted.
2. Diesel trucks will eat up your payload capacity because the diesel and their emissions systems weigh a lot more than a gas setup.
3. The manufacturer information on their website is all but useless - You need your truck in hand to be able to see the door sticker before even thinking about your purchase of an RV. In the case of a truck camper and GMC there is another sticker in the glove box showing the truck camper recommended maximum.
4. As you found out you need to weigh your complete setup.
5. Most people with a single rear wheel truck are overloading them with truck campers by a far margin - We had to buy a significantly smaller/lighter truck camper than we had been told or even expected to buy ourselves after doing the research.
if you need less hitch weight just move all the gear to the back of the trailer to off set the weight. my 2020 GMC 3500 crew cab diesel with X31 off-road package has a GVWR 12,500 ive had it way over that with a plow and weight and salt in the bed and it handles it just fine.
Road conditions make a big difference on your rig as well. Most states out there suck with the roads. If your heavy on the bad roads,safety is very reduced. But don't worry. The d.o.t will make more roundabouts to make the roads better.
Good job! I had a 2017 Silverado 3500 LWB single rear wheel truck and towed a 2018 Solitude 310gk. In the truck I had a heavy ranch hand front bumper with a 18k winch, in the rear I had a 60 gallon fuel tank and a tool box plus a 20k Curt 5th wheel hitch. My GVWR for the truck was 11,600. When loaded my rear axle ranged from 7200 to 7500 depending on how much fresh water I had in the tank. Front axle was usually around 5600 which was right at max for the axle. So, I was 12,800 to 13,100 gross, almost 1500 lbs overloaded. Last year I traded my truck and bought a dually! Now I have a little cushion, but my Gross vehicle weight rating is still only 14,000, so not as much as one would think. My rear axle rating is now 10,500 and my front is 6,000 so I have plenty of capacity, but I will go over gross if I get carried away.
I had a 14400# gvw 5th wheel and towed it with a 2500Hd with a 9200# GVWR. I bought the truck without 4wd so I could get extra payload. It scaled at 300# under front axel. 200# under rear axel and 200# under trailer axels, This was fully loaded for 2 wk camping trip including passengers, I was also Under on gcwr. I was over on the trucks gvwr by 800 # I now have e small MH 1200# under fully loaded with full water
Great explanation of what all those numbers mean. I see so many people overloading their rigs.
Should have gotten the duels on re-end of your truck
A lot of people forget to add the people weight to their payload. You have to do it just like you showed as your loaded when travelling with all your gear that you’re going to take with you
As you where saying about the engine brake on the diesel, with a gas engine truck going downhill turn the overdrive off or shifting to a lower gear will give you a little engine braking (not as much as a diesel) but something to help in the mountains.
nice to see that you are sharing. Back in the early 2000s when I was looking for a rig and going to RV shows Sales people do not care if you knew that someone would sell you what you would buy. My choice was to buy the max truck in a 2003 Chevy Dually 3500 with 6.6l Diesal with Alison trans in a 5-speed. make a towing cap of 22K. added a 50 gal tank which added 300 lb to the truck. then add the RV at 13000 lb with 70 gals of water at 8lb per gal 560 lb when I weighed the rig I was at 22000. on the number. but I never drive with full tanks of water. but my knowledge from DOT driver training. I have been around lots of RV's that have know bits of knowledge of weighs and how they affect one ability to control their rig.
Weight can be transferred to the front axle with a bumper pull by using a weight distribution hitch.
It's useful, when weighing your truck alone, to not only have all your gear but full fuel tanks. Similarly, when weighing the trailer, to have full propane bottles, and full fresh water tanks, plus camping gear that will be carried in the trailer. Yes, you may have to get on the scales three times: one for the combined vehicle (separate axle weights), one for the truck unhitched but loaded, and one for the trailer, unhitched but loaded. And for the fifth wheelers, the tongue weight should be weighed from the hitch point, not the jack stands which are so much farther back.
So, running the numbers on our 2024 GMC 3500 Sierra Pro dually diesel and Grand Design Solitude 390RK with the 8 K axles and independent suspension gives me this: GVWR 14,000 (actual 12,500), GCWR 40,000 (actual 29,020), Front Axle WR 6,000 (actual 4,920), Rear Axle WR 10,400 (actual 7,600) Payload (adjusted for loaded truck only weight of 8,800) 5,207 (actual 4,127) and the truck seems fine. Where we are over, however is on the trailer weight, rated for 18,485, with the actual coming in at 20,220 (1,715 over), but that has a true capacity of as much as 25,000 pounds per Grand Design. We have been working to lighten the trailer weight throughout our journey and plan on dropping several hundred more over the summer in Maine at our seasonal site. Great information here, thanks!
Don't forget if you get bigger tires for any reason, that changes your towing capacity weight as well.
I see so many lifted duallys with mud tires towing campers or trailers. I highly doubt they bothered to get tires rated for the load.
Another thing to point out is braking power. The truck and trailer GVWR is the maximum safe limit for brake stopping capability on a level surface. Overheating brakes, brake failures are common in hill and mountain areas.
Great video and lots of good information for all of us. You are correct on the 3/4 ton trucks....just not enough payload for lots of the shorter full profile rigs like yours. I had a Ram 2500 CTD and was delighted when Alliance came out with their Avenue line, which allowed us to get one with that truck. But after pulling it for a season, I wanted a 1 ton long bed for more payload and to tow w/o a slider. So we upgraded to a Chevy 3500 CCLB DRW!!! And it is wonderful. It's way more than I need right now, but when/if we decide to upgrade campers, we are set. One thing I noticed on your set up is your hitch looks to be HEAVY!!! You might want to research the Gen Y gooseball hitch, which could reduce your weights by a few hundred pounds. Also, when you converted over to the IS system, did it increase your GVWR on your trailer since you don't have axles anymore? The IS system w/ hydraulic brakes looks to be the way to go. Thanks again for sharing with us.
Given all the grand design issues with changing the box hitches and given that most RVs are on Lippert chassis; that may not be great advice.