"NO SCRUM CONSPIRACY" | JAKE WHITE on Law Changes
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- When World Cup winning coach Jake White speaks, we listen. He has given his verdict on the law changes coming into effect on July 1st and says there is no conspiracy. Do you agree?
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I don’t know what they are trying to do really. Let me quote from The Independent, “The 2023 Rugby World Cup held in France had a 19 per cent viewership growth from the 2019 edition, becoming the most viewed rugby event of all time, World Rugby have said.
The event, held in September and October, clocked in 1.33bn viewing hours across linear and non-linear broadcast, a 30 per cent growth from the last World Cup held in Europe in 2015 in England.
Italy had a 70 per cent growth in viewership compared to the 2015 edition, while the viewership in the US more than doubled.”
Rugby viewership is growing.
All true but the club level game is struggling in many countries
@@matthewbazeley2984it went through a bad dip post COVID but every major club competition has seen a jump in viewership and crowds this year. Some have even seen significant increases. Prem, Top 14, URC, Japan League and Super Rugby all have seen jumps this year. URC and Japan League will likely see highest ever numbers this season.
People are not realizing the existential threat that Rugby League and the NFL international plan represent to Rugby Union. The bad thing, is that World Rugby doesn't know how to actually fight them.
@@cheloxmv I’ll believe this existential threat when I see it. Bar 3 countries, league is practically unheard of and is only more popular than union in one of those 3 countries. Union needs to ignore league and focus on what makes it unique and promote those aspects.
@@notenoughstones3873 I agree on the second part. On the other hand, the threat isn't really big now but it will.
I often go to Cape Town stadium to watch the Stormers games. The most irritating issue for me is the stoppages due to TMO reviews, and players going down (without being injured) to slow the game down. Certainly not scrums, not even scrum resets. At schoolboy rugby there are no TMOs, and it's sometimes far more entertaining for exactly that reason.
Jake was just applying for a job at World Rugby.
Clowns lost my respect. You did a good job for us at SA before abandoning. Almost certain the same way he was paid to leave,he was paid to comment,
Shame Rassies made him Jelly
That crossed my mind too 🙂. I am a big fan of Jake though.
That statement, "Rugby is a sport for anyone, not a sport for everyone" so succinctly put, it set off a lightbulb for me. Really good points made as per usual Tim.
I agree. What a great comment by the Egg Chaser! Right on point and great examples of laws that apply only at school level.
Can’t agree more with anyone/everyone poetic description.
I started off as a skinny hooker in primary 6 in school, moved to prop for the first team and only lost once in 2 years. Then in secondary school I moved to the backs as everyone started growing faster than me and prop was pushing it for my boney stature. I ended up a much better back due to all the contact I was used to. Injuries were sparse because we were all normal sizes for our heights. With the onset of professionalism weight and short term power spurts are more essential, so freaky creatures emerge wreaking havoc on each other.
I think they need to reduce player weight by limiting substitutes so the monsters have to run about for 80 mins. You need to keep the scrums. It’s the most recognisable thing about rugby and is turning into the only thing that separates it from league, where anyone/everyone’s the same size.
@@RG-gq4nz well I think a full tight 5 replacement on the bench makes for a fascinating contest.
@@rorygilmoreNZ It’s a bit like watching 2 games though. It’s ok if you’re SA or something, as you’ve strength in depth, it just accentuates the gulf in teams who have limited player pools.
@@RG-gq4nz that’s true, don’t you think it’s just a cyclical thing? It seems that after every World Cup something is done to deal with whatever tactic is fashionable at the time. And things like depth must be a factor in all sports. Sometimes I think world rugby listens to commentators, reporters and pundits a bit too much.
Not sure what Jake is smoking. Kids can play touch rugby, 7’s rugby, all sorts of other variations of the game that minimize the impact of the scrum on the game. And as you say - World Rugby can specify rules for schools.
Why get rid of the ability to call a scrum on a mark or a free kick? Unless - as you say - World Rugby are trying to get rid of scrums. I think you hit the nail on the head. This is really really bad for rugby. Unnecessary and likely to cause many unintended consequences that will ruin the sport.
Agreed 🎉
Yip White a bit of two timer just depends on his results then changes his tune
I think Ur over reacting and perhaps it's high time the boks did play more expansive rugby.
Very well put: Rugby is a sport for anyone, but not a sport for everyone. And WR needs to realise that. Because if they keep trying to impress and pull in non-fans by becoming more "fan friendly", they risk pushing away existing fans who don't like the fundamentals of rugby changing. Like me: I watch so much less rugby already because it has become a refereeing show with some rugby in between, filled with farcical laws expecting players to defy the laws of physics.
I'm 15 and I play for my local club and the scrum is my favorite part whether I'm in the scrum pushing and trying to get the penalty or if I'm in the back line were there is so much more space of the back of the scrum either way its my favorite part of the game, and yes I do agree that time to set them should be quicker but there should not be less of them.
Thanks for your great comment Tobias. Are you listening WR?
We need the scrum more than we need the IRB.
Fook no to hell with scrums
💯
IRB?? Ok Rip Van Winkle
Jake is the perfect fit for Beaumonts a$$hole...
I think on the surface of it I agree with what JW is saying. He's holding back from the conspiracies. This isn't targeted at South Africa in particular. South Africa does however stand to lose the most because they have the best two scrums in the world. But it's not punitive against SA. Most people who say that are just trying to psych themselves up and perpetuate this "us against the world" narrative that we know the boks use (some would say need) in the change room. I don't know why exactly the law was put in but the idea that it's about the fans is where I think the rub is and what I totally disagree with. There has been a push from certain countries to make the game faster because that's what fans in THOSE countries want and the game is under threat in those countries because the pendulum has swung towards forward dominated game and they are losing to bigger teams with resultant reduced fan engagement. Their big mistake is thinking what THEIR fans want is universal in the whole world. It's not. As you say there are millions of fans who love the scrums and the tight stuff and it provides more jeopardy and drama and true contest than the running stuff often does. The true issue here is the arrogance of those countries thinking the global fan base is homogeneous and trying to terraform the game into something they like and would probably do well in. Do we need more fatigue? Yes I firmly believe so, should we abolish the scrum? HELL NO. This isn't rugby league. Teams that want to play (and win) with the fast style need to strategically impose that game on the opposition team and not legislate a style of play. The pendulum will swing back eventually when forwards get too big and slow. We heard this arrogance from Ian foster when he suggested that the slow forwards dominated game was inferior. I thought he was playing 4 dimensional chess but turns out he really believes that. And that's why he was never going to win a world cup and it's right that he lost it to the boks cos that was dead wrong for him to say. (I'm an all blacks fan btw) Doesn't matter whether it's 1 point or 50 the all blacks will never win if their attitude is "our style of play is superior, yours is inferior".
Tim, I agree with you; scrums are unique to rugby union. At school, I had friends on our rugby team that were 'big' kids; they loved rugby and could play the game in the front row; THAT attracted them
Me until I got taller and slimmed out 2 years after I started playing
Yep. And those big kids would have been left out of a soccer team.
@@CarnivorousMower I was big AND had two left feet
As a South African I know I am biased, but it certainly does seem these new laws disproportionately affect the Springboks. With that being said, I can't wait to see how Rassie uses them to his advantage :)
Heres the thing, i cant really remember the last time the Springboks got a free kick from a scrum. But i certainly remember the Springboks demolishing teams and earning a full arm penalty many times. I dont see that stopping. Yes teams might now train to give away a free kick at scrum when they are playing against teams like the Springboks, however they still need to srum against power scrumaging teams. And those teams will train to make sure they dont allow the opposing team to give away a free kick.
WR are clueless though, they think fans would rather watch NZ or Springboks give a low ranked team 70 points. We all know that the close scoring games are far more entertaining.
I am just a layman when it comes to rugby rules. However, what is the difference in principle, deliberately knocking a ball down when a ball is passed from one player to another in the opposing team, thereby giving away a penalty, as opposed to this new scrum rule enticing teams to deliberately give away a free kick? On the one hand, the rules punish a deliberate knockdown, whilst on the other, it encourages a penalty free kick. Doesn't make sense to me.
@@jskok3280interesting point 👆
Your memory is not that great
The All Blacks coach himself last year seemed to think people would prefer to watch a 70+ drubbing of a minion team that a side winning by a small margin on a low scoring game. Now I could never agree with that
The scrum is what attracted me to rugby.
You are right. We do not take Jake`s opinions very serious in South Africa, This changes around the scrum is to stop SA dominance in the scrums. Scrums is game defining inrugby
Scrums are great, what's not great is all the faffing around that happens before we can get a scrum.
I'm reminded of when I watched some women's rugby a few months ago and was blown away at how quick everything was. When a scrum was called both teams jogged over, the front rows got set on the mark, the locks and back rows bound on and the ref could start the call within maybe 15-20 seconds? Nobody "lost" a contact or untied and retied their boot laces for the 7th time, nobody took a knee and waited for a trainer to come on so they could windmill an arm for 2 seconds only to carry on anyway.
Compare that to a men's game I watched recently, Reds v Rebels, scrum awarded to the Reds, everybody is set up when the ref gets word from the TMO to give the feed to the Rebels. When the Rebels players hear they have the feed the whole pack stands up and starts walking away and has to be told to not walk away because we're having a scrum. These guys are professionals, what are they doing?
I think if teams spent more time actually scrumming and less time wandering around like Brown's cows and purposely slowing everything down, people wouldn't be wanting to see less scrums.
Your comments are always inciteful and well reasoned. The old men in rugby should retire to their stoops and let the younger generation decide the future. Old age does not guarantee wisdom and I am 70. England in Bill Beaumont need to stop trying to dictate the global game. They are desperate for a European win. Love your comments.
Jake White might be a legend (I don't rate him as much as a number of other world coaches), but I think you have nailed it. Your points on unintended consequences, constant changes, and all the other things you talk about - spot on! Your recent clear perspectives are the best right now in social media rugby discussion (along with 2cents).
I agree that I don't think the general rugby audience hate scrums. I think a big driver behind the idea that the audience don't like scrums comes from the commentators. Most games there is nobody on the commentary team that understands scrums (as they are not usually ex front-rowers). This means some of them don't know what to say when scrums are happening and instead choose to complain about them or how long they are taking to fill the dead air. A counter example for this is when Flats is commentating, there is a huge difference in the viewing experience in a scrum-heavy game with someone like Flats commentating and one without. If we really want to make the viewing experience better then it is up to the broadcasters to do it, not endless rule changes.
Same with kicking. one of the TNT commentators starts moaning as anyone puts boot to ball. ruins my enjoyment
That's also what I've noticed with TNT sports commemtators in general. They focus way too much on the laws that don't provide anything to what is going on. Compare this to the NBA for example, the commentators have always got stories to talk about, whether it's a player or a coach.
@@fredreesgriffiths7843 yeah, I get the impression that the main commentator and Dayglo just don't enjoy the match
Very good point
👊
Man I am your fan. I love how you tackled this.
I'm definitely not a hard-core fan, but I have been watching rugby for about 15 years. My issue with the scrum is that I often don't know what's happening and why certain penalties are awarded. Obviously, like you've mentioned, scrums really slow the game down, and this is often tactical to run the clock down, particularly if someone is in the sin bin.
100% agree with you 👍
Yeah same here, I know the basics of rugby rules but when the whistle blows at a scrum I'm looking at the ref's hand to find out which direction, no idea why it's called usually.
As a South African parent with 2 boys who play rugby, i can promise you that many, many parents do not want their kids to play rugby into high-school for fear of injury, and by far the majority of them site the scrum as being the thing that scares them. This fear might be due to ignorance, but it is certainly there. My feeling, and this might be specific to South Africa, is that school boy rugby has grown out of all sense of proportion. Club rugby has all but collapsed here. More people go to watch the top schools play than go to watch a Sharks game in Durban. Talented school boys are approached directly by the franchises and offered contracts. High school rugby is to all intents and purposes, professional, with players being poached between schools with offers of scholarships. There are many schools that have bought most of their 1st teams. The use of steroids at school is rife, and anyone who denies it is blind. As a dad and teacher who sees the potential beneficial educational aspects of rugby, i find this very disturbing. Personally, i think that the simple solution to this, is to mandate weight categories as opposed to age groups. Other contact sports are separated into weight categories for a reason. My 11 year old son has already played against a prop who weighed 110 kg. I dont think that this is beneficial to anyone, least of all the very large-for-his-age boy, who simply gets given the ball time and again to crash through. How is this developing anyone? Anyway, take these as comments as coming from a dad first, a physics teacher second, and a dude who enjoyed rugby a very distant number away from that.
@@garethbarry3825 Great points, and I'd tend to agree for a sport where size is so important. Not much good for people playing vs the 110kg prop for obvious reasons, but for the 110kg prop it's a rubbish learning experience too, until he gets to be 15 or so and everybody else is better than him, having not relied on pure brawl their whole life. Interesting to hear the perspective from schools, certainly small rugby clubs are nearly dead in the UK as far as I can tell
Don't worry, hard core fans don't know why many scrum penalties are given either
Jake mad he didn't get the same adoration as Rassie is getting
Thank you for your unbiased opinion Tim. True that, the fans were marvelling at the impact of the scrum at the last World Cup. The fans were in awe at Willemse scrum call. Don't know who WR has been listening to, maybe a certain Matt Williams. Matt Williams was pissed that the Boks could call a scrum of the mark and that the Boks were scrumming for penalties. As rugga fan I'm disappointed at the lengths WR has gone to in order to depower the Boks
Erasmus is a Maverick...Jake White comes accross as a yes man
He’s just saying it to suck up to World rugby. Especially after what happened because they sent a B team to the QFs of the Champions cup and got called out.
I think he is jealous. Erasmus is an innovative coach, White not as much.
@@nic0072I agree with you.
Yip Tim enjoyed Ur take-on things as usual as a South African Bok-fan I also find-it quite co-incidental (As U Say) how WRU also wanting to look @Repalcement-Numbers on the Bench I believe this is on the To-Do List/Agenda as well!!!
The sport is at risk of becoming over sanitised. I started playing schoolboy rugby in 1974. Played throughout my school years, sometimes 2 games on Saturday(1 in the morning for school, 2nd in the afternoon for junior colts at my local club). Then, representative rugby in the Royal Navy and other clubs. Most people love the physicality of the sport, scrums are a huge part of that. Why not just leave the game alone? Those that want to play, will play, those that don't, well. They can just go and cuddle their teddies!!
I agree with you on the scrum. The scrum is what makes rugby unique. I have watched NFL fans and players reacting to Rugby and the second they see a scrum they are all going like...What is that?. If Rugby is all about running with the ball they have Sevens Rugby to watch. I understand that they have to make the sport safe, but Rugby is a contact sport. It would be the same as Reducing the speed of F1 cars to 100km/h max...F1 is about Speed and danger, take that away and we could all watch Carting only...😒
I 100% agree with your take on all this. Love your videos,!
Kids play rugby for scrums. Period. You don't see kids excited to play Rugga for line outs. Nobody plays rugby to kick. Kids want to imagine scoring tries and test their strengths through scrum. 100% well said, RUGBY IS A SPORT FOR ANYONE. NOT EVERYONE. Great input boet! Cheers for this! Have a blast in Durbs and hopefully get a one on one with Jake!
I am South African and whenever anyone wins a lot of games it stays the same. Minor Tweeks. But when Boks win games in a row or cups. Law changes. This is not new. We will work it out again.
Ps look at kiwi commentators and ex players. When the win they’re the best. When we win. Laws must fall.
The problem with administrators is they feel they have to justify their position. In order to do that continual changes have to be applied. That goes with the rule changes as well.
I agree 100% with you!
As a school playing no. 4 and no. 8, I didn't enjoy the scrum so much, as us forwards worked so hard to get the ball, then the bloody backline goes and knocks it on in 5 seconds!
But at the top level the scrum is so important, technical and unique to Rugby Union.
Otherwise we are just going to end up with Rugby League...
Having played the game for 30 years and coached for 25 years. I’m also starting a Paralympic wheelchair rugby side. If you want to make the game safer give the referee less decisions to get right every time. Any penalty within five by the defence should be a penalty try and no card. Restart the game get more activity within the game. By doing so, you will stop the paternal pic and go. I’d also bring a stop clock for getting the scrimmage together a certain side is not getting their scrimmage together within a set amount of time free kick or penalty. The game has a problem where it looks self-deprecating. Love the show for your thoughts.?
I dont like that idea on the penalty try to be honest. The drama on a try line where players throw everything to stop a try would disappear.
@@dougclark9921 if we are trying to stop the amount of head injury’s that we should be doing and all we need to do is get the referee to enforce the laws. No yellow cards get on and play the game. Other benefits would be more game play, more attrition, more space, big players would have to be become smaller to cover the amount of ground to defend. Scrummages would also become safer ?
@@robertwright6875 I totally see what you are saying but I like the Rourke's Drift defence on the line part of the game. I could watch happily as much as people scoring tries.
@@dougclark9921 that’s ok but we need there to be to set a standard. There needs to be implications if you get it wrong. Offside is a penalty make it a penalty try stops the offence. And both sides are 15v15 drag a maul down within five creeping up the side of the maul etc all need to be seen as dealt with and know one is down to 14 or less. When it happens it makes the game look bad.
@@robertwright6875 My concern with the penalty try becoming a replacement for a penalty is how much cheating goes on to win penalties near the try line (and everywhere else). You'll get the same for penalty tries with scores like basketball games.
Love your channel. Rugby lovers and players will always enjoy the scrum!! Everything you say makes so much sense.
The first thing (low hanging fruit) to do if you want to improve viewership and grow the game is to get pundits who love and understand Union and commentators with passion in their voices. That should be enough to hook new fans.
well done tim👏👏👏
As always you are unbelievably fair and honest and your points are really important and pin-pointed .
time off when scrum is called , time on when ball is next in play.
100%.
As someone that played flyhalf (10) most of my playing careeer, i can't stress enough the importance of your forward pack. If your pack is dominant on the day your decision making is easy and if not your backline decision making and execution needs to be on point e.g. if you cant get to Carter or Wilkinson get to their scrum. The scrum is an important piece in the rugby chess game.
...i totally agree with this " Rugby is a sport for anyone... but not a sport for everyone"...
Well the Rugby top brass and the government and the feminists and the gays and the trans and the media and the pressure groups say it should be for EVERYONE ! so will make the game more suited to appeal to a 12 year old TRANS girl or let grown men not only play against women and crush them but perve with a stiffy in their locker rooms GOOD LUCK !
I don't know much about forward play but over the years I am seeing that the scrum and lineout can provide the forwards with more of a tactical impact than the past l, which is great. I have started watching again in the last few years and am loving it, not just because I am South African because I do try to keep up with what is happening in other countries as well. I once played in a schoolboy team that had big, strong and fast backs but a small but fearless pack. We were coached by a former provincial scrumhalf and the strategy was to get the ball from the hooker to the scrumhalf as quickly as possible and then to clear it away fast before the opposition had time to get their act together. There are so many strategies that the scrum can give rise to, so please world rugby, stop changing just when we are figuring it out!
Watching rugby with scrums after scrums stoppages is like going to shopping.
You got home and you realise you have been shortchanged.😂😂
Brilliant review! I agree with every argument you raised. I’m a prop forward and could never be anything else. The scrum opens up the world for the rest of the team. Physically and emotionally.
Jake knew better than to put his foot in it... he still made the point about the free kicks and the officiating of it..
great take on the issue, agree 100%.... I hope you get JW on your podcast
Agree with you 100%. Leave scrums alone! In fact, lets take scrums back to the traditional engage laws.
I have the utmost respect for Jake White, absolute legend of a coach and a great man, but I am 100% with you on this topic Tim. Also for the kids at school who are all still developing physically, let them play the same rules as the professionals, just with some restrictions like 1.5m scrum sure, but in the professional level take the training wheels off and let the pro's play.
Spot on as usual! I'm tired of people claiming that rugby is just not entertaining enough. The world cup was mesmerising. On any given weekend The premiership, Top14, European Champions cup etc are about the only TV I and most of my friends watch. Is watching 22 prima donnas prance around for 90+ minutes in the hops that something will happen better? Does rugby league attract the audience of union?
The scrum can be hugely entertaining however, multiple resets are not. Agree that the law changes should concentrate on stopping resets not stopping scrums.
Well put in perspective with the Ben o'keefe referance. Congrats on 80k followers Tim. I think these law changes will bring plenty on controversy.
Tim you are right on
I dont know if I agree with Jake or not but I agree with you regarding the "mythical potential players/audience." Interesting video, thanks.
Just a thought for Saturday Tim. You should do a live stream commenting on all the event as they happen. The Prem is going to be wild!
I know it’s boring to say that, but I find myself agreeing with everything you say today. I can maybe add that one of the attractions of Rugby is how it is a game for many shapes and sizes. More than that even, every team needs those shapes and sizes. A lot of that is mandated by their roles in set pieces, but it is those shapes and sizes mandated by set pieces, that makes the loose play as entertaining as it is. That is why we have ball carriers with very different strengths that present unique challenges to defending teams, in not in set pieces, but in phase play. It also makes constituting a bench a strategic thing for the selectors, of weighing up choices. Do we go for a more mobile player but sacrifice raw strength, or to with go with strength and risk being found wanting on endurance or speed. All of that is what makes for the many layers of strategy in Rugby. Without that, or with toning down scrums as an important battle ground, positions will become less specialised, and the 15 men will all be athletes of similar ability. 15 man Rugby Union has more fans world wide, far more, than sevens or Rugby league. But now they want to make it more like Rugby leaugue, for entertainment??
Very well said. Agree with you 100%
Great comments Tim.Have lots of respect for Jake but he was very unconvincing on this issue.
this is a great look for you Tim and you are hitting it out of the park with your content!
Scrums is what attracted me to Rugby, I don't like it, I love it
Sport for anyone, I totally agree, some of the games I have watched recently have had everything, big scrums and fast open play, it’s been brilliant. They need to stop meddling.
The scrum makes rugby different from similar sports, and , as you say , creates space for different types of players. I agree: ' stop tinkering !'
I'm Saffa and inclined to agree that there is not a conspiracy. The Bokke are not the only team with a very strong scrum and as such not the only team impacted by this change
Agree with you, Uncle Jake have it wrong here with his scrum statement and schools. Problem is lack of professional scrum coaches for school scrumming not more or les scrums. Its well known that schools think the forwards is just a natural skill and don't need professional coaching. They will rather spend more money and resources on the backline and other team metas. I played as a loos head prop from 8 years up to age 29 .You were expected to just play. Back in 2019 the Boks kicking game was also criticized especially Sir Richard from nu Zeeland. They cried to WR to change that. 4 Years later Boks now use scrums as there weapon and the same people cried to WR to change that also. My prediction is that Rassie will come up with something new and I can assure you the same people will moan to WR again to change rules. So no Uncle Jake its WR that hates Springbok rugby and want to put rains in SA rugby's play stile. Frik from Pretoria South Africa.
Totally agree. I will go so far as to say that if scrums are removed from rugby, I WILL stop watching it completely. I personally feel it will drive existing fans away in droves. No problem having different rules for school versus professional rugby, but don't ruin the professional game. If players don't get the variability of pace that comes from scrums they will be exhausted too quickly. So the game will have to be shortened. Also removing scrums mean you don't need forwards so the teams will be smaller. A shorter, faster, game with fewer players. That sounds familiar. Oh wait, that's Sevens rugby. There is already a format for that type of rugby. Why do we need another one?! And what size is the fan base for the full game versus the sevens version. I have no idea but I'm guessing far fewer for sevens?
I agree 100% with you on scrums.
The scrum is a fascinating part of rugby and the phycological impact on the team getting "man handled" and on the flow of game is really intriguing. It's part of the game that allows for different shapes and sizes of folks to join into our game
I think scrums are essential, and the line out law change might impact defensive lineouts. The problem is only having to play for 40-50 mins. Anyone can bulk up for a big impact over short spells. Normal folk can’t effectively carry that power round for 80. They should only have injury replacements. This should reduce size and injury. Probably move back to more varied body size too, opening it up to more folk.
Scrums at club level are never a problem. I've played front row for 30 years. The issue is not the scrum, it's the set up and re set up delays at elite level. Sort this and Scrums will be the spectacle we all want to see..... simples
Might sound crazy but my two Scottish Terriers have an opinion on scrums: best tv moment ever. Really gets them going. They started supporting the All Blacks at about a year old and that loyalty just can’t be trained out of them - so much for supporting the Boks
I would love to know what will stop a team with a weak scrum to conceed a free kick just to get out of the scrum. I'm still confused by this.
Just hope you get to meet Jake, enjoy your visit to South Africa 🇿🇦
Jake had a sense of humour , definitely sarcasm
Spot on, Tim. For me, it is too much of a coincidence. I think Jake's explanation is superficial. You have drilled down to the real issues. Great stuff!
In full agreement! How can we get you onto the World Rugby board??!
We didn't do scrums until we were in our teens. We weren't allowed before then and the first year we started, it was uncontested scrums.
Spot on. Spot on again
Well said. The scrum is a contest on its own.
Great video as per usual, love your insight & content. Just a suggestion, as a big fan of the channel. I counted you saying “hit subscribe 3 times in this video..” not necessary to always say this.. ppl will subscribe regardless.. just a thought
Very good analysis and opinion as usual 👏🏻👏🏻
Why don't they show the results / Proof of the fan driven changes?
Jake doesn't like the fact That Rassie is a better coach and achieved more than he did. He is so wrong. He's not genuine and has an agenda. He is a joke here in South Africa including amongst the Bulls fans
The uncertainty about how the rule changes will play out is not good for the game. Reality is that a strong scrum will always be an advantage. There might be a bit of gaming of the law and we'll all have a grumble about it and they will have to make more changes. As a Springbok fan I'm not worried. It's not as if the whole country has suddenly forgotten how to play rugby. Not worried we can't adapt.
Completely agree. Surely with the level of backlash against the rule change, we can say that it's directed towards bringing in new viewers at the detriment of long time loyal viewers.
Given that the panel that proposed/ agreed to this include Jacques N (in old role) it feels like there was a good South African voice on this decision. It’s not like their scrum is actually that dominant against anyone except England.
Hi Tim,
I love this debate and I have been playing devil’s advocate a lot around this and think I’ve come to a conclusion that I would love to be the case.
I played county level as junior in the forwards 20 years ago, stopped playing in my 20s then returned to playing in 30s along with coaching my son through minis/juniors and watching him play both codes in the north west so I think I have a pretty balanced perspective. I also love scrums…
My opinion on this could be slightly unexpected as I actually think removing penalties from scrums (as much as possible) and resets is the way forward. I think this as I come from the belief that rugby players, forwards in particular, are not cowards. The scrum has recently morphed into a penalty contest with both teams trying to deceive the ref into giving a penalty so that points can be kicked or territory gained for a preferred lineout strike. Removing this element brings it back to a contest of physical dominance and reducing the number of scrums increases the importance to packs to make the most of them when they come along, scarcity etc. to assume any front row is going to just take free kicks to avoid another scrum would also assume that forwards are cowards and this should be the message being sent out for the betterment of scrums.
I could expand on this all day! I agree fully that scrums are integral, but more often does not lead to better. Having played a little front row, and a lot second row, I can 100% get behind less scrums speeding up the game, but more so that forwards won’t be absolutely wasted after too many scrums, especially at community level when the ball is dropped a lot and I’ve done my fair share of jogging from scrum to lineout and feeling like I just finished a heavy Barbell WOD rather than a rugby match!
Keep up the good work on the content! Apologies for the essay..
Scrum penalties are the issue, the scrum is an essential and enjoyable way to restart play, but teams who attempt to 'trick' the referee by drawing errors is frustrating, how many times have scrum penalties being given when the ref just has to ping someone. Get the ball in and out quickly, limit the time and less penalties.
Make no mistake, scrums are not entertaining and are certainly not "box office entertainment". Where I am from people do want to see non-stop, free flowing and running rugby. Sure we can have some scrums but speed it way up like it used to be. The laws or interpretations seem to have evolved over the years to allow the scrums to become more dominant and take up more time which has moved the game away from it's original spirit. The proposed law changes which speed up the game will simply take us back to playing the game how it is supposed to be played.
Spot on, Tim! I'd say the caterpillar ruck grinds my gears more than anything else!
Great content as always.
wonderful comments thank you! the scrum has to stay! but I was wondering what your thoughts are about a system of handicap similar to golf, where less gifted and weaker teams may have a better chance of scoring? don't get me wrong, I love watching the top teams in action, but it may be better for the sport if a team rated 20th in the world ends up in the semifinals or even finals
Tim, you're spot on regarding scrums. if you don't like scrums then switch to League. Scrums define rugby!
I think its fair to say that the boks and in particular Rassie pushes the boundaries and is closer to the edge than any other team, the logic behind the 'mark' scrum was to tire out the French forwards, in my eyes that is petty and bad sportsman ship, the game winning scrum penalty against England really should have gone Englands way as Ox and PSTD where at 45 degrees, forcing Genge to put a knee down and get pinged, there are just too many factors for a ref to make consistent calls. If less penalties are awarded then teams will just get the ball out and play on.
I complain about the scrum! So saying no one complains about them isnt correct...
Scrums are pretty fun. But also pretty confusing for me... Im half SA. And South Africa don't have specific real estate on having a good scrum too, so fans shouldn't think this is a target on them, many nations have a good scrum, but even years before the world cup, scrums do feel like a coin toss. Even professional props that have played on the international stage say they are. On the rare occasion when a pure pushover happens its pretty fun. But hard disagree that scrums are the most entertaining things to non-die hard rugby fans. Is it defining? Yeah, but when a scrum goes backwards and then earns a penalty, it's confusing.
It is completely "fan" focused. In Australia the competition for eye-balls is the most fierce in the sporting world, with 3 major winter football codes. In this modern day, tik tok world, with everything kids have to entertain themselves with this competition is even more intense. In order for Rugby to retain viewership it needs to be kept (in the worlds of Billy Birmingham's; Richie Benaud) upvibe and interesting. Sitting around waiting for 16 men to get their crap together gets tiresome, especially for younger people. People want to see a free flowing game most of all.
But I agree with you in saying that, 'competitive' scrums are fundamental to the game of Rugby! But forwards have to understand that it gets tiresome watching multiple resets, for younger people.
As a Kid growing up in the 70's and 80's, Scrums from a Free-Kick were unheard of. The Game was hard, fast and exciting to watch - and yet in this New Era, everyone is freaking out about this. I think People are over-reacting about this Law.
GREAT post, thank you. Jake wants a seat at the World Rugby table. He's sortakinda endorsing them, but also saying they haven't thought this through in terms of what will happen on the ground. Teams will always find the loophole... (Italy's non-engagement at the ruck...? Brilliant. The heart and soul of clever rugby.)
You giving Jake White way too much respect here over your knowledge of the game itself. Majority of the rugby loving public still love scrums. Let's leave it there
a few points. 1. When rugby became a new game, someone said lets have half the team chasing round like loonies and the other half 8 big blokes of different sizes have a pushing contest to see who's strongest. that sounds like fun for all. 2. Half of all people who ever played rugby were forwards and forwards like scrums. 3.There are loads of kids from 5 upwards playing rugby, World rugby might try and address why this does not translate to adult rugby, because the grass roots game has fallen apart since we went professional. The game is withering away. 4.The premier league has set an abysmal example with their closed shop. Eventually someone will realise that if you want a professional game that makes loads of money, it must be a different game under different laws which satisfies the new mindless mob who don't mind paying for carnage. 5.And the players should be paid the big big bucks, not everyone else. Oh, and if I was South African I'd be really hacked off because the scrum is obviously on WR hit list.
Tim, I could not agree more with your point of ‘Anyone Vs Everyone’
I am quite certain that a great degree of the attraction of rugby (or at least in my anecdotal experience) comes from the transformative effect it has on the individual. ie choosing to do something thing difficult and potentially dangerous to be part of a whole and to better yourself.
The more generic and especially SAFE you make the game, the more you destroy its character.
Tim they talk about making the laws so that the fans are entertained but did nothing about Caterpillar rucks and box kicks.
Jake White clearly does not want to get on the wrong side of World Rugby.
I'm with you ... eliminating scrums will not see more children playing.
South African school children have access to Sevens and also Touch Rugby if they want to skip scrums and big contact. If you reduce the number of scrums, you eventually push the props out of the game. Pretty soon all you have is 6ft2 100kg clones on the field.
Jake has a good rugby brain, but he's also a bit of an egomaniac with a chip on his shoulder. Trying to debate with him will be a pointless exercise. Trust me.
On the mark!!