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Is Training To Failure A Good Idea?
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- Опубликовано: 26 окт 2020
- This video was recorded at our September, 2020 seminar in Virginia Beach, VA at Iron Asylum gym.
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Note to self: Find opportunities to use the word, gestalt
Geschtaltz. I think its Pseudo-German.
@@1111poul No. It's Yiddish. The German word is "Gestalt"
"My Gestalt to communicate how hard things should be..." Gestalt in this semantic configuration makes no sense to me as a German.
Hamstring curls to failure? No problem.
Deadlifts to failure? No bueno.
I think Austin makes a good point about using RPE 10 for fun. The majority of gym-goers do not compete, but will still gain satisfaction from setting PR's and challenging themselves to be stronger. For those less concerned about bodybuilding this may even be the primary motivation for going to the gym. Compliance with any program is going to be best when the user finds it enjoyable, and for some people going to failure semi-regularly is going to be most enjoyable. It might not be the most efficient training stress, but it's almost certainly better than the person quitting the program and going full-bro because they weren't having fun any more.
I have to disagree with Jordan regarding calibrating the RPE scale by going to failure. If someone has never truly pushed themselves to failure then they may well be gauging an rpe 8 as and rpe 10. If you program rpe 8 and they end up doing their work sets at an actual rpe 6 then I don't see how you can argue that that isn't a problem.
I agree, but I think it's a good point that precision is more important than accuracy though. Even if you are at RPE 6 instead of 8, if you are adding weight your RPE 6 is getting stronger, so your RPE 8 is as well. However, to get the intended training response of a set @8, you need to know what it feels like to do a set @8. The only way I learned what 8 felt like was that it was a little easier than 9, and that was a little easier than 10, and I had to miss a few times to really know where 10 was.
Step #1. Get off couch.
Step #2. Train.
Step #3. Feel happy coz 99.9% of people wont do step #1. (or 2.)
Legend has it that if you squat alone in the gym at midnight and put on a certain heavy metal song that Alan Thrall appears and if you don't hit RP10 on your set he eats your soul. That's what I heard anyway. I'm not sure what the song is either.
I always go to failure with isolation. Biceps and triceps kind of thing. The fatigue from going to failure in bigger exercises is just too much. Its always scary for me to fail on dead or squats. I just don't like it.
After watching Eddie Halp legpress 1000kg my new definition of failure is pooping pants and passing out.
So essentially all the people that don' t claim to know exerything and so much more than everyone else agree on this smart approach.
Jeff Nippard, Brad Schoenfeld, Mike Israetel. Some of those experts periodize failure on purpose before a deload while others skip deloads and stay within the RPE range mentioned. Not to mention all the coaches and athletes who consider recovery being limited therefore implying to think about what allows them to minimize fatigue while nearly maximizing stimulus.
Yes. It’s quite frustrating listening to someone like Greg douchette telling people to go harder than last time. He is inherently saying to reach a 10 RPE every training session.
@@Tinkerbell0320 The more frustrating thing is reading someone saying that "harder than last time" means "go hard or go home". It's totally not what he's saying. Since his advices are catered towards newbies, as intermediates and advanced lifters already know this kind of basic thing, he tells them to not go to the gym and go with the motions. They should put effort. And no, he's not telling them to go to failure. He tells them to train seriously and not with the same weight/intensity/repetitions every time, but progressively overload. "Harder than last time" means progressive overload + training seriously.
@@Tinkerbell0320 Greg tells pussies to go harder than last time. Every day people that workout with gloves kinda deal. Not intermediate or advanced lifters.
Thinking about going to the gym and having to do a set at rpe 10 would make me feel extremely anxious.
Let's see how many "but you're not training hard" responses arrive. Funny thing is RPE 10 on a regular basis with the same 'loads' is contradictory and an impossibility. How many people can consistently do deadlift, squat, press, or bench sets to failure without actually facing pain experiences or significant performance setback? How many people actually do this and still endorse the macho masochism?
RPE 10 is a religious experience. With just a bit of thinking, one would realize that the dunning Kruger sheep who pride themselves on feeling like they work harder than everyone else may not even practice what they preach.
All of the “I’m so tough I train to failure” clowns don’t actually train til failure even though they think they do. Also they don’t look so “tough” when their athleanx inspired training methods have them barely quarter squatting 135 pounds after a year of training
I think in bodybuilding 8-10 rpe "form" is likely different than powerlifting imo.
@@michaelzepernick4575 "Don't train to failure even though they think they do". If only we had some kind of rating to quantify how much exertion someone *perceived* in a given set
@@Huffman_Tree early beginners shouldn’t use RPE. They haven’t been training long enough to have a feel for what different RPEs feel like. There’s many people who think they went to failure just because it feels too strenuous to keep going.
@@michaelzepernick4575 Yawn
Oh man, what timing on this one! I just started your hypertrophy II program, which has AMRAP sets programmed into it here and there. So this feels like an adjacent topic.
If you look at the qna at the end they specifically recommend you go to rpe 9 on amrap sets
@@isaacbennett1 not exactly amrap then is it
@@WiseMistake as many reps as possible minus 1. Amrapm1
Doing Greg knuckols hypertrophy ATS program at the moment. Last set amrap to failure on all compounds...
@Rodrigo Neves Hermida ok cool
I ran the program and just terminated the amrap set when my form deteriorated. Just push to rpe 9.5, ie do as much as you can without failing a rep.
you can also just go to technical failure, eg stop if your form breaks down.
did rpe9 and just added a rep to the sheet
Main thing to take home here is to be somewhat conservative when programming rpe 8 sets ahead of time.I myself tend to overestimate what my rpe 8 would be before the session and not meeting that arbitrary weight can be challenging.Sometimes even the empty bar feels heavier compared to other days.If you're not a competitive athlete that has to perform that given day it does not matter.
Love these video snippets.
5x5, 3x5, 3x8, 5x3 on most compounds. If I can't hit the prescribed reps I'll lower the weight 10 percent and finish the sets.
Failure training works but there's a price to pay. I started to absolutely dread my workouts training in this fashion. To the point of my body just shut down. Needed to take some time off.
Now I'm doing more sets across. Like I said if I can't hit the 3, 5 or 8th rep I don't keep grinding. I'll just lower the weight and try again next time.
I'd like to see studies comparing say something like 5x5 @8 vs 1x5 @9 followed by 4x5 @7
IMO, RPE 10 on compound movements elicit too much form breakdown past 4 or 5 reps and can lead to avoidable injury.
>Avoiding injury
>Going under 5 reps
Choose one...
"If you don't go to failure, you are a failure." That's what my mom used to tell me. Just kidding.
Nice info here! Can you make a video on how you have been implementing the low fatigue protocolls from data driven strength which you talked about? I guess the RPEs here would be significantly unter @6, contrary to this video?
Any data that supports your hypothesis?
someone training at RPE 4-6 all the time thinking it was RPE 6-8 is fine? nope
Training to failure in compound exercises should never be done on a regular basis. Maybe to test things out here and there, but certainly not in every workout. The risk of injury is way too high, and the extra stimulus you might get from it is marginal.
i trained heavy and to failure every workout time after time for quite few years after 1991 when I started lifting weights. Been there. Done that. Bought all the T-Shirts. But what is the point of getting stronger? Eventually you find getting stronger doesn't matter past a certain point. Now I do strength training more with bands and bodyweight but find a lot more fun, meaning, and mobility in sports.
What weightlifters for size repeatedly fail to understand is that training your body to lift weights is totally detrimental to mobility and speed. Anyone who has had a hard sparring session with a boxer or kickboxer trying to punch them in face is not so deluded! Sure, size and strength help in some sports some of the time -- but the cost to speed, endurance, and mobility is rarely worth it for those who prioritize performance.
Les Grossman?
Simple, harder than last time
Depends on the exercise... Curls (bis and legs), extensions (tris and legs) don't cause much fatigue and are not dangerous when taking to failure, even beyond, but big compounds movements... No thanks, I don't want to be crushed by a barbell xD
Legend has it that in faraway lands over 7 oceans exists things like spotters and safety pins!
Well that explains a lot 😬
what about myoreps though?
That's not done on compound lifts,so it's okay
@@Msreesaranyan sure it is, just look at pretty much all of the exercises where myoreps are programmed and its a compound lift. they are mostly upper body bench or pressing movements, but there are some places where lower compound movements like leg press/belt squat/front squat/ssb squat are programmed for myoreps
@@craigjackson6450 myoreps are not programmed on sbd which they primarily talked about here
@@Msreesaranyan all competition lifts are compound lifts. not all compound lifts are competition lifts. using an SSB doesn't turn your squat into an isolation movement - the movements which are fine to go to failure on now and again.
Kinda lose credibility when you wear a white coat to authority farm from medical profession doctors or not.
Dr. Greg is triggered
@Rodrigo Neves Hermida all due respect, he's neither a Phd nor a Doctor. But would he really say to do RPE 10 (imagine the baraki exertion scale) on the daily? Is that even possible? Sometimes you just have to wonder how much nonsense he is willing to put out to target the average person who may or may not be so cognitively destitute as embracing 'harder' as the only necessary training recommendation. For example, no one needs to tell people to discard the entire nutrition research industry to tell obese people 'just eat less,' (and even that can be extrapolated to mean anything, so you have to wonder whether people who benefit from reductionism would've benefited regardless of the utter lack of information that 5-phrase mottos offer).
We have to understand that Jordan and Austin are almost always talking about Squat, Bench, Deadlift and sometimes Press and going to RPE 10 on every set is flat out dangerous. But for a body builder like Greg, doing something like a lat pull down machine, or cable row, or chest press machine, doing an RPE 10 isn't going to be a big deal.
@@KB-vv8gr I don't think so. From everything I've seen, Greg notices people aren't training hard enough, so he advocates for it endlessly. The way I see it, lots of people say something like RPE 8. Greg knows people will workout to RPE 8... but in reality it was an RPE 5 or 6. Greg's talking in general, about the average lifter he sees at the gym, and is pushing people to push harder. Everyone like the docs here are discussing a more... nuances response. I'll be here all night.
@@KB-vv8gr 100%. Exercise selection and frequency (usually a bit lower for most bodybuilders) play a role.
But if you go to the Mike Israetel Greg podcast on Omar Isuf's channel you can see Greg say that he coaches people for powerlifting by making them take deadlift sets to failure in higher reps and just decrease the reps and increase the weight as they approach meet week (which is super suboptimal and more likely to cause pain), but then again he's a special breed and I'd imagine people who gravitate to him for coaching at the elite level are as well.
Yesterday's deadlift tutorial video from Greg he also said that he wears straps so he can train to failure and he said you should go to failure and use his 10% rule (which to this day we have no basis for both in evidence/rationale, and to what populations this is a good idea). He said people who hold back a few reps are 'scared to train hard' (in refernce to deadlifts). He also said that mixed grip causes 'problems' and 'imbalances.'
That's what I dislike about Greg despite admiring him for a generally good information (imo) he puts out. He blurts out stuff that isn't based in evidence OR logic in an attempt to pander to the biggest noobs in the gym who happen to embrace reductionism and masochism (who comprise his viewership it seems).
@@dripshameless5605 But Greg also said Jeff Nippard trains like a 'p***y' by looking at a single video of his deadlift (which most sane people who are not abusing special sport pharmacology do to accumulate training in a high enough & range for strength; and Jeff was also injured). And he recommends going to failure even on deadlifts (he claims he does this himself and/or for his elite clients) and recommends his interestingly obscure 10% rule.
Idk if he's lying or all the people who come to him are freaks of nature who compete in untested federations to whom progressive overload is the progressive increase in tren used till meet day which may allow one to bypass the fatigue from RPE 10 deadlifts all the time, but even then, year round? Lots of exaggeration at play here from him to appeal to noobs who want to pat themselves on the back for thinking they work harder than everyone else for taking 275 x10 deadlifts to failure.