What Are The Criticisms of Barbell Medicine?
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- In this video, Drs.Feigenbaum and Baraki answer questions submitted during the most recent LA Seminar.
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I’ll say that far and away the two most beneficial aspects of Barbell Medicine (for me and my wife) have been the following.
1. Don’t get so up tight about the little things. Get a decent volume of protein, get rest, stay consistent. So simple and easy to maintain.
2. Don’t get so uptight over accute injuries. Reduce the weight, modify the movement if necessary. Understand that it will probably resolve on it’s own in relatively short order.
Hit the nail on the head. Couldn’t agree more.
100%
I think the main criticism I've seen are as follows:
1.) Some people think that you guys are too verbose and overly complicate simple topics, to the point where it isn't as helpful to the average person, and just might confuse them, whereas more simplified recommendations might help better / be more actionable.
2.) On some topics, you don't take a strong stance one way or another, and people see this as being wishy washy and / or never committing to a stance (thus, you can't be wrong because you never committed to a side).
Granted, I don't necessarily agree with either of these criticisms.
I agree that Barbell Medicine has a difficult “entry point” for potential new followers as a result of your comments. It takes more commitment and study to stick with Barbell Medicine than other groups.
For me the second one is why I follow them, because a lot of various things in this space need more research and aren't conclusive, which they have no problem admitting.
@@jeffm5099 I wish more people thought like this. Unfortunately, everyone wants an easy answer, and most fitness influencer are perfectly happy peddling them half truths.
I think for PTs or anyone who has decent experience this is better because we don't need anything spoon fed we want information to make us better, the popular stuff is just to dumb, I do like starting strength as it gives a decent idea how to do the lifts for new people and still think it's good place to start just don't get sucked down the rabbit hole (as I did) if you want up to date info or something decent to listen to in the car barbell medicine is perfect for education that is aimed towards lifters/coaches/PTS with brains
Not enough Alan Thrall!
I do have criticism, but it's nuanced. And complex.
my only criticism: not popular enough
This
Breaks my damn heart 😥
Facts
I really don't understand
My favourite part about BB medicine. I want to keep the info all to myself 🎉
I enjoyed seeing their training and showing how they progressed
I was hoping you would address recurring criticisms but instead you used this as an opportunity to boast about your credentials ("we are big doctor guys who know le science - can't prove us wrong!") and ignore critics. Most of this has been said in the comments already, but I'll elaborate anyway.
In general, you advice is sound, but my biggest issues is that you obviously understand that meta-analyses and large, randomized controlled studies are a good source of evidence, and that tiny, preliminary studies with small effect sizes don't give confident conclusions, but you have no problem evidencing your claims (when it suits you) by piling up studies of the latter kind, as if more citations = more scientific. When people say that nutrition/exercise science is bs they are talking about the kind of "science" that people like you sometimes practice: low quality research with zero external validity, premised on p-value abuse. But instead of conceding the point, you handwave and imply epistemological faults in others while in reality committing the same methodological and statistical errors that first year students make.
It's even worse when the meta-analyses *contradict* the typical advice given by doctors (certain medications for psychiatric disorders) and you still ignore it. Sometimes there is a clear bias: it's almost as if the conclusions come first, then you do a quick search on pubmed to find a study (n=6) to prove your point. Other times it seems that you just haven't read enough about meta-science issues to see a problem. Maybe try being more charitable to your critics instead of assuming they're wrong because, again, you are big doctor guys. I also suspect that sometimes you have to give nonstandard advice to differentiate yourself in a saturated market, again pushing for fringe ideas.
Other points, briefly, since others have already said this:
1) Your templates are a money grab. For the price of a template one would expect a book with general principles to apply to the various stages of their training (like PPST) rather than yet another almost identical template that was actually an RTS rip-off.
2) Berating the working class, people with difficult lives etc. Austin has a video where he literally makes fun of people for saying "I don't have time to work out". How does a doctor lack the empathy to understand that someone with a hard job, children, no home gym, no knowlege of lifting, lack of money etc, can't just go to their garage and do a 10 min deadlift workout? You both sound like snobby rich guys.
3) Jordan sometimes displays the personality of an insufferable dork (it seems to be rubbing off on Austin too). I hope it's not reflective of his demeanor towards patients because I feel like flying to wherever he is and giving him a cosmic wedgie. Also he needs to shave his head.
4) *syringe emoji* Go figure.
Other than that, keep up the good work.
I’ve been a big fan of the content for a long time and my quality of life is much improved from what I’ve learned - for diet/food intake being related to socioeconomic status, emotional habits, I’m not quite sure I understand it - want to learn more though, not only about the evidence but how to apply that to improve eating habits in a sustainable fashion
Gotta pay for nutrition coaching
It’s a great way to say people aren’t responsible for their own actions and choices. More victim mentality, that’s exactly what we need.
@@rlfs2853 we actually address this specifically in our podcast on processed foods, lectures and content on weight management and obesity, etc. and present evidence supporting our claims. We do not say "people aren't responsible" or are otherwise helpless, but we're not going to pretend willpower and motivation are sustainable strategies to improve the dietary pattern at the public health level.
People in my life always oversimplify the approach. They are like “oh so you’re going to just train through it”
No. That is not what I said, at all.
One of the things I appreciate about BBM is that you guys don’t really need with anyone, and your content is so solid it’s hard to argue with.
I've hit every lifetime PR using BBM templates (nothing impressive, slightly better than Rip's definition of strong @200lbs, which is 5/4/3/200 in the DL/S/BP/P). I went to a seminar in Seattle in 2018 or 19 and it hugely impacted how I think about pain, as well as what I do about it. Just good stuff all around.
I think the only major crit I have is not something that's easy to remedy: it's somewhat of a cult of personality. The opinions that matter are the ones that Jordan and Austin come to. There are others on staff and affiliated in the org, and we see and hear them sometimes. But your primary thesis is that we need to go where the clinical evidence leads us, and that you need specific training to understand, interpret and apply said evidence. Jordan and Austin are the only ones that really have the ultimate qualifications in the org to fulfill that requirement. This isn't bad, and you guys have remained transparent, but any success or progress you have made with your work dies with you if you can't replicate yourselves (I don't mean the application... Anyone can do that. I mean the hard work to get there). I have no idea how you do that though.
Could you give a “in a nutshell” explanation of what you think about pain/what to do about it.
The vibe that I get from Starting Strength folks (I know these two have split off, but that’s where I got to know them) regarding pain is basically “everybody’s backs hurt. Deal with it.” But, it doesn’t make sense to me to do something that is causing a lot of people pain.
@@zzanetta88 BBM has better videos and articles than I can nutshell this, but I'll try: pain is real. Pain is important. Pain does not necessarily equal injury. Injury does not necessarily equal pain. Pain in and of itself, as well as it's relationship with injury, is nuanced and complicated.
If you're experiencing pain in training, then the general rec is to modulate load and exercise variation to the point where pain is mitigated or at least manageable. The last thing to drop/first thing to add back would be volume. Thereafter manage load and exercise selection until you're back to normal.
For the majority of cases, regardless of pain and injury situation, their rehab protocol works.
Which is why pain can be both incredibly complicated, but also what you do with it being largely similar across situations.
@@BM-si2ei That makes sense. Thank you!
Cult of personality is the industry, 100%. There is a reason it’s full of snake oil salesmen.
My biggest criticism is that there hasn't been an update on the nutrition book: what stage in the writing process, what year it's gonna be published, etc.,
really appreciate y'all, I've convinced several people I know to at least follow your IG and have had a social media acquaintance reach out to me to thank me for sharing y'all's stuff bc it's been so helpful to them. and I stay sending The Article. very glad I found y'all!!
No time stamps!
I use the word nuance too much now
Austin’s shirt is at RPE 10
John Ioannidis, in his discussion with Peter Attia, conceded that most nutritional data is observational and weak. Combine that with the replication crisis, and there is much that is arguable.
I really got a lot out of your pain management lectures. I can't seem to make RPE work though.
RPE is easier to implement in the 8-12 rep range incase you're doing high-weight/low-rep work
Agreed, I always undersell myself with RPE and surprise myself when pushing the high intensity stuff, so for me I always end up bailing too low if I just go via RPE and make little progress.
My only criticism is the lack of a million subs.
My main criticism of BBM is that they have defined themselves mainly in reaction to Starting Strength and have not laid out a simple, clear path of their own (yes, I’m aware of the beginner templates etc.)
I would have agreed with you in 2018, but I don't think this has been true for many years. Especially since both orgs have greatly diverged from their 2018 selves.
i was not even aware they were connected to SS and i am using their stuff from the pandemic
Austin looking jacked! Is he focusing on hypertrophy more?
If I was to give one bit of criticism, it would be that sometimes zebras really are zebras and it takes a bit to figure that out. I don't think that this criticism is really one that falls entirely on your shoulders, as much as it does the way we currently treat medicine (which has its pro's, but also tends to be very late on the ball for rare but serious diagnoses).
In my example, I started with balance issues and non-specific backpain. I worked with both a doctor and a physical therapist and we took a very conservative "it will probably work itself out" attitude. It turned out i had osteonecrosis in both of my hips as well as in small pockets in my spine. Waiting and treating it in this BPS way likely made a significant difference in my case as it was too late for the "early surgical interventions" and ultimately I ended up in a wheelchair before needing both hips replaced and a surgery on my lower spine.
BPS and "acute injuries will resolve themselves" is a great rule of thumb, but sometimes a zebra really is a zebra and not a horse.
Not enough whole milk
Jordan's been on gear for awhile, but it looks like Austin joined him since I saw him on video last. He's really blown up.
Not really any criticism. I wish there were more episodes.
This video quality is beautiful!!!
Gracias from Texas 👍
Truly enjoy your content!
They are too jacked and strong. And doctors.And good looking. They make me feel sorry for myself.
"Here's why you guys suck" Your content is probably too intelligent for the general population. Be more "bro". But... don't actually change, I love your stuff.
A critique that I have is that the information provided, although valuable(and free), is limited in scope and often times misses what people seem to be most interested in at the moment. I understand that its probably not worth getting into every new claim or fad, but sometimes it feels like the conversation is in a different place.
My biggest critique of BBM is actually the followers who try turning it into a religion or cult.
Dude this is so true. I noticed this like 2 years ago and I’ve been following these guys since the beginning
I think my biggest criticism is that JF and AB look better clean shaven and shouldn't try to compete with AT.
Since I found Barbell Medicine I’ve never looked back, just sayin
This video is high quality. You should do more content like this on RUclips.
I'm surprised RPE isn't a bigger point of contention. The Starting Strength people in particular seem to thoroughly dislike it. I sort of get where they're coming from though, a novice trainee may undershoot their training because of a lack of self-awareness as it pertains to potential, however, they're likely still going to be making progress and that self-awareness can be developed along the way.
That newb Gironda was against going to failure as well…,
You don't say vejins have a psychological disorder like Rip.
My biggest criticism is not enough weekly bicep videos, im serious.
What are ya gonna do? Not post a comment for the algorithm?
You guys are awesome 😎
5x5 checking in
They get people too jacked.
not enough content
Was gonna post this
If I can have approximately 2/3 of the nuance and swoleness displayed on the vid I can die in peace
I never had a disagreement with any of their methods, but I've had issues with some of the ethical prescriptions from some of the articles coming from a bioethics perspective. Obviously, you guys don't suck. An MD doesn't make you an expert on this.
I mean if you create an environment where no one will press you or even want to question you're not going to get a lot of pushback.
Not enough Rippetoeisms
Lol they can’t help but overcomplicate sometimes there smart AF
The extremely heavy emphasis on mind-body dualism is pretty disconcerting
Criticism: need more content/educational resources
Diversity? Ugh.
yeah. fucking so annoying when people whine about wanting diversity
The greatest criticism is how little evidence BBM programming can produce strength beyond its originators. Has anyone heard of someone competing or interviewed using Barbell Medicine programs? Even Starting Strength produced a person who can OHP over 400#. For evidence based lifters, their results are lacking.
A 740lb deadlift at relatively low bodyweight without the use of PED's isn't enough for you?
What data set are you looking at where there aren't impressive lifters who used BBM programming?
I'm not an impressive lifter but am making significant gainz on the Powerlifting template at the moment, and loving it.
I'll get back to you in a couple years when I might be classified as an impressive lifter. What is even impressive these days? There's freaks all over social media.. seen everything already
We have had multiple lifters place or win at both the national and international levels in PL. While a given program isn't going to work for every person, I think we have demonstrated that we're doing better than average in this space.
@@BarbellMedicine never heard or read anyone using BBM programming to win legit competitions.
Not enough fhaves
I have some:
1. Your templates generate a lot of fatigue. I get it if it is strength template in intensification block, but hypertrophy template? RPE 9, for whole 6 weeks in every main and supplemental lift? For what?
You partially address that in your low fatigue strength template. Partially, because...
2. You don't give knowledge and tools for people to write their own programs. You sell templates. But you don't educate people how to program for their own. Which is problematic, because your templates "don't work" with people who deals with a high stress outside of a gym.
And probably your answer will be: "Yeah, but they will not pr in the first place". Maybe. But why then overstress them with templates full of RPE 9s?
If somebody is dealing with new high stress working environment, or have relationship issues, or is chronically ill for a month then using your template will only lead to hating every coming session.
And no, autoregulation doesn't resolve this issue. Sometimes you need to cut down volume or lower RPE.
And don't tell me about podcasts about programming. It's couple of hours of very basic and general recommendations.
3. Sometimes volume selection is weird. Hypertrophy I ends with 28 sets for chest in last week. And this is your go to hypertrophy program for beginners?
4. You belittle problems that blue collars have to face. Work? Nah, it's not conditioning. Do I have to cut down volume or RPE because I do physical work? Nah, you are used to your job and it doesn't matter.
Derek Miles is more aware of this issue, but Jordan is just like: "Nah, doing another 18 sets RPE 7-9 every session four times per week after your 8h working shift as a construction worker is fine".
You realize cutting down reps, sets IS part of auto regulation? It’s not baked into the programs because they are designed to be a wide net, but If you listen to their podcasts they frequently talk about adjusting the programming, not just the intensity. Their podcasts are choked full of free programming information which has allowed me to adjust my programming to deal with major work life stresses and a depressive disorder and not fall into a fatigue pit of despair.
You act like anyone would judge you for doing less. This sounds like a you problem bud
There are many templates out there that are too fatiguing for me when I have other goals I want to achieve, I simply modify. These are templates, not personalized programs.
Some of these comments are really interesting. One of the first and most widely appreciated post-beginner programs they put out for free a few years ago, The Bridge, literally come in as a part of a programming e-book that talked about training variables, their meanings and effects etc. Not too long after that, the 3-part programming podcast/video was filled with crucial programming theory. It's simply nonsense to say they don't educate people on how to program.
Lukasz,
1) Yes, I agree that our templates generate fatigue, which we think is necessary to drive adaptations via the fitness-fatigue model. If this doesn't match the individual's current fitness level however, that would not be great. I think RPE 9/1RIR stuff can be useful in the right context - the hypertrophy template being one of them.
2) Hmm, we have at least 5 podcasts and 6 videos published on programming covering programming design principles. I would not agree that they are so basic or general as to be unhelpful for program design. We also include detailed instructions on how-to program in a number of the texts accompanying the templates, e.g. the bridge, bodybuilding template, powerbuilding III, and the most extensive, the low fatigue template. I also wouldn't say that people who have a "high stress job" won't PR. I do agree that training should be autoregulated to a person's current fitness level and training resource availability, yes.
3) We do not recommend the hypertrophy program for those new to training. We recommend the Beginner template. That said, 28 sets in a week isn't necessarily a lot for a muscle group.
4) Having worked many manual labor jobs prior to my medical training, I think the advice I offer is pretty spot-on. We also discuss why work-related activity is not conditioning from a health or performance improvement perspective, as that's what the evidence suggests. And yes, I would agree that the training load needs to be managed in a way to match someone's training resources and fitness levels. However, this doesn't mean someone should automatically reduce what they're doing either.
Oh my lord 100% of the criticism in the comments is people who are just disagreeing because of their own observations.. what do ya know..
Wow, watching them melt away within 48 hours felt so good, and yes, I used what I mentioned the other day. It actually took a bit more to make them totally disappear, I just go’ogled Melissa Thanderski and the pain was no more.
I can hear Rippetoe ranting about trans people somewhere.
7 minutes of upper back, or 7 minutes of arms. I don't know how 7 minutes translates to sets and reps. That's kind of annoying.
In the templates where this "time priority" setup is used, we lay out how-to structure this with respect to sets, reps, loading, and proximity to failure. We use this strategy to help manage training time and fatigue.
@@BarbellMedicine GET MORE BLACK KANGZ COACHES COACHING WHITE WOMEN HOW TO BREED CHOCOLATE BABIES .
you owe Rippletoe much. if not for him you would not be who you are.
My criticisms - I’ve bought 5 of your templates in the past 4 years here’s my results,
No pr’s in the deadlift, 1 pr in the squat , 1 pr in the bench. Yup …. That’s it , so I’m done with bbmed.
There’s also a weird pretentious vibe I got from the Facebook forum and Jordan as well. I’m a blue collar, worker, average Joe type so I like other content and other net spaces. I get more for my dollar as well.
Later
All valid points but announcing your departure is overly cringe
No or barely any PR's for 4 years? How?
@@nitroyetevn 100% either: not training hard enough. Not following rpe correctly, not following the plan properly. No way you ain't gonna make gains in 4 years, something key is missing
Have you tried the low fatigue templates? I've spent a lot of time not making progress, and I've been feeling successful on these.
I am very satisfied with the programs I’ve purchased so far. I am making solid games on the beginner template. I do agree sometimes they do tend to seem little condescending to us non-medical professional followers.
Needs more basic stuff
Not quite that complicated, honestly. Just consistently listen and you'll catch on.
@@djbray7 ☠️
Just do fives
Feigenbaum is very unlikeable guy, looks and sounds like a real pain in backside while Baraki is the opposite, nice, easy going guy, down to earth.
Yeah Feigenbaum reminds me of a guy a know. Excessively smart and competent, fun to get drunk with, but too arrogant to build any real connection.
Huh, never found Jordan to come off as arrogant. Confident, sure and I would say rightfully so.
@@chwillsie I said unlikeable not arrogant.
I find it funny that you worded this as if it's an absolute "is very unlikeable guy"
I attended the recent LA seminar and just have to throw in my 2 cents here having actually met these guys. Jordan was a pleasure to interact with, as was Austin (I had coaching from both of them as well) nothing but good vibes.
All of the BBM staff present were also extremely kind, it was a great weekend
Do u guys have any evidence that can support the claim that "Jordan is unlikable"?
ah, the question that gets asked when someone doesn´t know a good question but feels the need to ask a question.
RPE needs to go. Use percentages and alternate squats for weakness training and backing off the volume to give your CNS a break. This is more straightforward to understand.
I dunno bro, I love RPE.
Is it that hard to understand though?
sounds like you just aren't proficient in using RPE, there's no reason it "needs to go". There's nothing inherently wrong or harmful about it. I also don't think it gets any more straightforward than RPE, honestly... super easy to understand and utilize.
as the fellow above states,
I dunno bro, I love RPE.
When I don't have an option of using RPE I have callbacks from SSLP period...
Reps in Reserve is a real thing…; stopping a set 2 reps prior to failure is still a good set, and not as exhausting.
But who even cares about the diversity thing?
I'm sure y'all are hiring the best people for the job. Meeting some arbitrary "diversity" standard should have no bearing on assembling the most knowledgeable team.
I don’t think it’s a competency or knowledge thing, but rather having folks that represent additional perspectives and experiences that will allow them to increase their reach and get more people training. Having looked at the barbell medicine team overall, they have a variety of different perspectives represented and I’d argue that each member brings their own strengths. Alan helps to bridge the strongman gap, Jordan and Austin are excellent at presenting the evidence and providing general strength advice, the rehab team is excellent at what they do, Claire/Leah help show what women are capable of and also showcase that women don’t need to be scared to really push their training. Anyone and everyone can learn from everyone on the team, but reducing those barriers through a diverse team can certainly help bridge that gap
I know there are additional members I haven’t mentioned, but I think having a variety of individual perspectives, skill sets, and dare I say inclusion inherently suggests that they are hiring best people for the job. I’d argue BBM for the most part does diversity correctly and not in an arbitrary way, but I can see how you may draw that conclusion based on Jordan’s response here