If you fall on this, you will snap your back or worse. Personal anchor systems, even dynamic ones, are not designed to absorb fall shocks above factor 1. You can easily get above 3 with this setup. Im not even convinced the rope won't just snap (ropes can handle about 14kN at most). Arguably, continuing with this setup is just giving you a false sense of security and will make a fall more likely than not using anything at all. And it also involves you having to fiddle with the carabiner, making you take of your hands, distract you, take up more time. Etc. This advice, if taken by someone who doesn't understand the forces, will kill people. Your warnings are not sufficient, and you clearly imply that you can fall on it. Before even suggesting something as dangerous as this i would at the verybleast make a study and measure the actual forces involved in this. But from rock climbing, i can tell you that dynamic ropes are absolutely inadequate for this application and will absolutely not "do the job". A backup system isn't much more expensive than your suggestion and if peole cant afford it, instead of giving them advice that will seriously injure or kill them (ignoring that after a fall you're most likely already injured), you should advise them to not put themselves in that situation. Take a froend along. Make sure you only go where you have cell reception. Bring a gps beacon. The correct advice is: Just inform people you trust where you're going and make them call rescue if you don't return / call them within a specific time window, and suddenly "just sitting" is alway an option.
Yes but a large majority is oblivious. I see so many people on the mountain and maybe my first or second time on the mountain I was as well a bit oblivious. They just go without ever thinking at danger. They practically have trainers on their feet. It is true, our predecessors didn't had all this modern gear but we do. It is also true that a large majority of the activities are now so commercial and relatively safe to anyone but still, why not teach probabilities and statistics in school in place of mathematics? It only takes one error. Not two. One. Why risk it? On another note, it is true that what makes you oblivious also makes you stronger. The moment you learn about danger and the probability of it there is a big chance that you will no longer do that.
@@JetSetYourself You are right, I often see people on hard routes ahead of me going slowly and seeming to be having a lot of trouble, they probably should not attempt such routes (and it causes everyone else to have to wait a long time).
@@ViaFerrataCH I mean, when you go up a new route for the first time, you don't really know the difficulty. Yes, they have grades, and there are often guides with descriptions, but difficulty depends on a lot of factors, some of which vary from person to person (arm length, skill vs raw physical strength, psychological factors, ect). The point is that it's easy to end up on a route that turns out to be harder than you expected, and sometimes you don't find out until you hit that hard stretch 200 meters up. Most of us will never have to use our backup gear, but the psychological factor of knowing that if we ever get into a situation where multiple falls seem to be an unavoidable risk that we aren't completely screwed has a value all of its own.
Is there any way of just getting the part that deploys rather than the lanyards too and carrying just that part? Or can you only but it with the lanyards attached?
Kong KISA is the name of the plate and is sold as a single standalone item. The rope and carabiner you will have to buy separately. To answer your question, yes you can buy just the Kong KISA and only cary that with you.
@@JetSetYourself Sorry I didn't mean that exactly. I meant it would be nice if you could purchase just the part of the via ferreta set that is deployed rather than a whole new set and then just attach the landyards to this. I dont think this is avalaible but it would be nice!
I now understand. You can find shock absorbers to buy separately but they require personal liability in using them. A Via Ferrata Set follows a safety standard and the guarantee is that if all goes as planned the set will deploy and protect you. If you buy a shock absorber (you find them on the market for professional use) using that comes with the personal responsibility of knowing what you are doing and no guarantee that it will help you. But, I understand your question. Probably you want to just be able to improvise your own Via Ferrata Set in case something happens. As one pointed in the comments overall it might be cheaper to just buy as a reserve a second Via Ferrata Set (the cheapest possible) and carry that with you. In reality, even if I have five extra Via Ferrata Sets I only take one on extreme and unknown Via Ferrata. Otherwise I take something simpler (that I can use for other situations as well) just in case.
Are you aware that there were many of these rope friction based via ferrata sets on the market some 15 years ago? And are you also aware that all these sets were recalled by all manufacturer after a fatal accident? Why are you proposing this method which was found out to be unsafe already many years ago? In your case it's even more unsafe as you only use one arm.
You missed the point of the whole video including the title. This is not a safety device recommendation, is not a recommendation all together. It is a presentation of a system that is better than nothing. A system that is better than a static lanyard. This is NOT a recommendation and not a suggestion to use as a replacement to a Via Ferrata Set. The topic is about aiding devices for emergency cases. Please keep commenting but as a productive debate and I will happy participate. In this way we help anyone else better educate themselves.
@@JetSetYourself I did not miss your point. Sorry but that's not better than nothing. If I fell on a via Ferrata, I would for sure not continue with an unsafe method. You are giving your viewers the false impression of safety. If your via ferrata set deployed, either get another one or wait for help. If this is your method, go for it, that's up to you. But I don't think it's good to teach such methods that are known to be unsafe in a RUclips video. If you don't like to have such opinions on your video, just delete my comment.
To your point, you are the one misleading the readers. I on the entire length of the video mention how using this system is dangerous and not a safety item but only possible to use for aiding in extreme situations. Everything you are writing was already mentioned by me on the video. You are not saying anything more. You are not right. You cannot recommend someone to sit and wait (when help is not coming) or to only use a replacement Via Ferrata Set they don't have as the only escape from a dangerous situation. As well, you cannot teach people just one sided story. Not every one can afford a second Via Ferrata Set. Also, this can be an aiding device that actually provides the desired outcome. The comments I'm making is that in case of a fully deployed Via Ferrata Set this can be then used as a third arm that will be your shock absorber. Of course, there is the limitation of a new fall while moving this above the next bolt. In that case a new possible fall will be static (dangerous). But, again, if you have to weight your situation and advancing is better than sitting and waiting then this it is better than nothing. You cannot say this is worse than nothing. It doesn't make any logical sense. To your point, RUclips should not be censored through ommission (the same way we are recommend some products just because content creators are paid to do so). What if people see this device, they do buy it and then not properly understand the limitations? What if they go and rent equipment and someone gives them such a system? What if they find someone strained while using such device but don't properly understand how it works and the limitations? Plus, people should be helped to discern and choose for themselves. There will always be a difference of opinions. My opinion is that people should receive the full education. Not only a sided know-how but as comprehensive possible. Are you aware how many people are taught only the sided education and then they go out there totally unprepared? Many buy the Via Ferrata Set and they think they now no longer need to know anything. Any RUclips viewer should develop the ability to discern and understand the educational content. For my personal case I know how much this can help me in extreme cases. Most probably I will have it with me because it is better than nothing. I disagree with you. Education should be as comprehensive possible. Viewers should be given the opportunity to discern and properly understand as many possible situations they might end at any time. You should restrain yourself from saying that I give viewers the false impression of safety but in exchange write the full explanation of why such device is not safe. Start listing all the case scenarios, describe each situation and phenomen, help the user understand practically and theoretically why such an aiding device is not safe and this then becomes great content. If you have something with me, me as a content creator and throw at me labels will not help readers. How is a reader helped to learn? What if one day their life actually depends on using such device? How are they better off then if all you say is that it isn't safe. Don't ask me to delete your comment as the only argument you bring. I either agree with you or otherwise delete your comment. I will let the readers decide for themselves. I don't believe is healthy to not speak about certain things just because is not politically correct, socially acceptable, etc.
@@JetSetYourself _I don't believe is healthy to not speak about certain things just because is not politically correct, socially acceptable, etc._ Don't you think you are going a little bit to far now? Political correctness? Seriously? Make what ever videos you want. But you should probably also accept if people think that your method is not safe. Your whole setup cost probably around 40 Euros. You can get a Via Ferrata set already for 60 Euros. This 20 Euros extra should be worth your life. Or just go with a friend who will be able to organise your rescue if you fall, so you don't need a second device. A fall on a Via Ferrata usually leads to severe injurys which means that you can't continue on your own anyways. In a Via Ferrata, you can easily fall 5m till the next anchor +2m of your rope means you have a fall factor of 3.5. These are huge forces on your body and on the rope. I don't think this 30cm rope slipage will be enough. This is way you buy gear that is made for this use case and is tested by experts. _in case of a fully deployed Via Ferrata Set this can be then used as a third arm that will be your shock absorber_ A fully deployed Via Ferrata set will not absorb any shock anymore as, like you say yourself, it is static.
@@hahne9 Dude, just chill. Just because one person died doesn't mean that friction absorbers don't work. If they are tuned, absolutely no problem. You want to call mountain rescue just because your shock absorber deployed? Maybe that's technically the correct choice, but who would actually do that? Nonetheless, in a real world scenario, the shock absorber will not deploy full length, typically, so there is usually enough left for bailing the route.
I'm no entirely convinced with this system. When you are on a via ferrata you have to change, let presume 200 times of the ferrata kit carabiner. With one more you have to change 300 times. That's a lot of energy wasted just to make sure that the via ferrata kit is safe. In the vertical climbing maybe you have also safety rope and in this case too many carabiners to move.
This is for emergency case scenarios and only if there is no better alternative (a secondary Via Ferrata Set, a belayer). If a belayer should assist you (remember that your Via Ferrata Set is deployed and no longer safe to use as a protective piece of equipment) it is as hard and complicated. When in extreme case scenarios, I'm confident that one will no longer care about the number of clips but about how grateful him or her is because she or him can safely conclude the route. Better change three times each bolt than risking to drop back again but this time without a shock absorber to deploy. I will cover one by one the options one has to recover after a fall and this device is the cheapest and best alternative to a replacement Via Ferrata Set. If you think I'm wrong please correct me!
@Crosslock you are correct, one should not use this device to keep the Via Ferrata Set save but after the Via Ferrata Set deployed and is no longer safe to use. I think my message can easily be misinterpreted (maybe I wasn't clear enough in my demonstration). This device should not be used at the same time with a fully safe and properly working Via Ferrata Set. It should only be use as an aid after a fall that will trigger the deployment of the shock absorber of the Via Ferrata Set. Once the Via Ferrata Set deploys is no longer safe and will no longer provide protection. That one is the moment when you add to your system this emergency device. Not before, not while climbing with a fully working, fully safe Via Ferrata Set. This device should not be used as a third arm. Using it as a third arm can reduce the efficiency of the system in case of a fall.
If you fall on this, you will snap your back or worse. Personal anchor systems, even dynamic ones, are not designed to absorb fall shocks above factor 1. You can easily get above 3 with this setup. Im not even convinced the rope won't just snap (ropes can handle about 14kN at most).
Arguably, continuing with this setup is just giving you a false sense of security and will make a fall more likely than not using anything at all. And it also involves you having to fiddle with the carabiner, making you take of your hands, distract you, take up more time. Etc.
This advice, if taken by someone who doesn't understand the forces, will kill people. Your warnings are not sufficient, and you clearly imply that you can fall on it.
Before even suggesting something as dangerous as this i would at the verybleast make a study and measure the actual forces involved in this. But from rock climbing, i can tell you that dynamic ropes are absolutely inadequate for this application and will absolutely not "do the job". A backup system isn't much more expensive than your suggestion and if peole cant afford it, instead of giving them advice that will seriously injure or kill them (ignoring that after a fall you're most likely already injured), you should advise them to not put themselves in that situation. Take a froend along. Make sure you only go where you have cell reception. Bring a gps beacon.
The correct advice is: Just inform people you trust where you're going and make them call rescue if you don't return / call them within a specific time window, and suddenly "just sitting" is alway an option.
Yes, this is a specialised device that has to be used with care and only by people that are familiar and properly understand the intricacies of such
I think it would be safer and easier just to carry 2 sets
Yes but a large majority is oblivious. I see so many people on the mountain and maybe my first or second time on the mountain I was as well a bit oblivious. They just go without ever thinking at danger. They practically have trainers on their feet. It is true, our predecessors didn't had all this modern gear but we do. It is also true that a large majority of the activities are now so commercial and relatively safe to anyone but still, why not teach probabilities and statistics in school in place of mathematics? It only takes one error. Not two. One. Why risk it? On another note, it is true that what makes you oblivious also makes you stronger. The moment you learn about danger and the probability of it there is a big chance that you will no longer do that.
@@JetSetYourself You are right, I often see people on hard routes ahead of me going slowly and seeming to be having a lot of trouble, they probably should not attempt such routes (and it causes everyone else to have to wait a long time).
@@ViaFerrataCH I mean, when you go up a new route for the first time, you don't really know the difficulty. Yes, they have grades, and there are often guides with descriptions, but difficulty depends on a lot of factors, some of which vary from person to person (arm length, skill vs raw physical strength, psychological factors, ect). The point is that it's easy to end up on a route that turns out to be harder than you expected, and sometimes you don't find out until you hit that hard stretch 200 meters up.
Most of us will never have to use our backup gear, but the psychological factor of knowing that if we ever get into a situation where multiple falls seem to be an unavoidable risk that we aren't completely screwed has a value all of its own.
@@JetSetYourself WEll said. "The moment you understand the dangers, and pre-plan for these, you become a safer operator"
Is there any way of just getting the part that deploys rather than the lanyards too and carrying just that part? Or can you only but it with the lanyards attached?
Kong KISA is the name of the plate and is sold as a single standalone item. The rope and carabiner you will have to buy separately.
To answer your question, yes you can buy just the Kong KISA and only cary that with you.
@@JetSetYourself Sorry I didn't mean that exactly. I meant it would be nice if you could purchase just the part of the via ferreta set that is deployed rather than a whole new set and then just attach the landyards to this. I dont think this is avalaible but it would be nice!
I now understand.
You can find shock absorbers to buy separately but they require personal liability in using them. A Via Ferrata Set follows a safety standard and the guarantee is that if all goes as planned the set will deploy and protect you. If you buy a shock absorber (you find them on the market for professional use) using that comes with the personal responsibility of knowing what you are doing and no guarantee that it will help you.
But, I understand your question. Probably you want to just be able to improvise your own Via Ferrata Set in case something happens. As one pointed in the comments overall it might be cheaper to just buy as a reserve a second Via Ferrata Set (the cheapest possible) and carry that with you. In reality, even if I have five extra Via Ferrata Sets I only take one on extreme and unknown Via Ferrata. Otherwise I take something simpler (that I can use for other situations as well) just in case.
@@JetSetYourself Makes sense, yeah the most compact / cheapeast would be the best backup :)
Are you aware that there were many of these rope friction based via ferrata sets on the market some 15 years ago? And are you also aware that all these sets were recalled by all manufacturer after a fatal accident?
Why are you proposing this method which was found out to be unsafe already many years ago?
In your case it's even more unsafe as you only use one arm.
You missed the point of the whole video including the title. This is not a safety device recommendation, is not a recommendation all together. It is a presentation of a system that is better than nothing. A system that is better than a static lanyard. This is NOT a recommendation and not a suggestion to use as a replacement to a Via Ferrata Set. The topic is about aiding devices for emergency cases. Please keep commenting but as a productive debate and I will happy participate. In this way we help anyone else better educate themselves.
@@JetSetYourself I did not miss your point. Sorry but that's not better than nothing. If I fell on a via Ferrata, I would for sure not continue with an unsafe method. You are giving your viewers the false impression of safety. If your via ferrata set deployed, either get another one or wait for help.
If this is your method, go for it, that's up to you. But I don't think it's good to teach such methods that are known to be unsafe in a RUclips video.
If you don't like to have such opinions on your video, just delete my comment.
To your point, you are the one misleading the readers. I on the entire length of the video mention how using this system is dangerous and not a safety item but only possible to use for aiding in extreme situations.
Everything you are writing was already mentioned by me on the video. You are not saying anything more.
You are not right. You cannot recommend someone to sit and wait (when help is not coming) or to only use a replacement Via Ferrata Set they don't have as the only escape from a dangerous situation. As well, you cannot teach people just one sided story. Not every one can afford a second Via Ferrata Set. Also, this can be an aiding device that actually provides the desired outcome.
The comments I'm making is that in case of a fully deployed Via Ferrata Set this can be then used as a third arm that will be your shock absorber. Of course, there is the limitation of a new fall while moving this above the next bolt. In that case a new possible fall will be static (dangerous). But, again, if you have to weight your situation and advancing is better than sitting and waiting then this it is better than nothing. You cannot say this is worse than nothing. It doesn't make any logical sense.
To your point, RUclips should not be censored through ommission (the same way we are recommend some products just because content creators are paid to do so). What if people see this device, they do buy it and then not properly understand the limitations? What if they go and rent equipment and someone gives them such a system? What if they find someone strained while using such device but don't properly understand how it works and the limitations? Plus, people should be helped to discern and choose for themselves.
There will always be a difference of opinions. My opinion is that people should receive the full education. Not only a sided know-how but as comprehensive possible. Are you aware how many people are taught only the sided education and then they go out there totally unprepared? Many buy the Via Ferrata Set and they think they now no longer need to know anything. Any RUclips viewer should develop the ability to discern and understand the educational content. For my personal case I know how much this can help me in extreme cases. Most probably I will have it with me because it is better than nothing.
I disagree with you. Education should be as comprehensive possible. Viewers should be given the opportunity to discern and properly understand as many possible situations they might end at any time.
You should restrain yourself from saying that I give viewers the false impression of safety but in exchange write the full explanation of why such device is not safe. Start listing all the case scenarios, describe each situation and phenomen, help the user understand practically and theoretically why such an aiding device is not safe and this then becomes great content. If you have something with me, me as a content creator and throw at me labels will not help readers. How is a reader helped to learn? What if one day their life actually depends on using such device? How are they better off then if all you say is that it isn't safe. Don't ask me to delete your comment as the only argument you bring. I either agree with you or otherwise delete your comment. I will let the readers decide for themselves.
I don't believe is healthy to not speak about certain things just because is not politically correct, socially acceptable, etc.
@@JetSetYourself _I don't believe is healthy to not speak about certain things just because is not politically correct, socially acceptable, etc._ Don't you think you are going a little bit to far now? Political correctness? Seriously?
Make what ever videos you want. But you should probably also accept if people think that your method is not safe.
Your whole setup cost probably around 40 Euros. You can get a Via Ferrata set already for 60 Euros. This 20 Euros extra should be worth your life. Or just go with a friend who will be able to organise your rescue if you fall, so you don't need a second device. A fall on a Via Ferrata usually leads to severe injurys which means that you can't continue on your own anyways.
In a Via Ferrata, you can easily fall 5m till the next anchor +2m of your rope means you have a fall factor of 3.5. These are huge forces on your body and on the rope. I don't think this 30cm rope slipage will be enough. This is way you buy gear that is made for this use case and is tested by experts.
_in case of a fully deployed Via Ferrata Set this can be then used as a third arm that will be your shock absorber_ A fully deployed Via Ferrata set will not absorb any shock anymore as, like you say yourself, it is static.
@@hahne9 Dude, just chill. Just because one person died doesn't mean that friction absorbers don't work. If they are tuned, absolutely no problem. You want to call mountain rescue just because your shock absorber deployed? Maybe that's technically the correct choice, but who would actually do that?
Nonetheless, in a real world scenario, the shock absorber will not deploy full length, typically, so there is usually enough left for bailing the route.
I'm no entirely convinced with this system. When you are on a via ferrata you have to change, let presume 200 times of the ferrata kit carabiner. With one more you have to change 300 times. That's a lot of energy wasted just to make sure that the via ferrata kit is safe. In the vertical climbing maybe you have also safety rope and in this case too many carabiners to move.
This is for emergency case scenarios and only if there is no better alternative (a secondary Via Ferrata Set, a belayer). If a belayer should assist you (remember that your Via Ferrata Set is deployed and no longer safe to use as a protective piece of equipment) it is as hard and complicated. When in extreme case scenarios, I'm confident that one will no longer care about the number of clips but about how grateful him or her is because she or him can safely conclude the route. Better change three times each bolt than risking to drop back again but this time without a shock absorber to deploy. I will cover one by one the options one has to recover after a fall and this device is the cheapest and best alternative to a replacement Via Ferrata Set. If you think I'm wrong please correct me!
@@JetSetYourself For emergency only. You're righ, not for keeping safe the via ferrata set. That was my thought
@Crosslock you are correct, one should not use this device to keep the Via Ferrata Set save but after the Via Ferrata Set deployed and is no longer safe to use.
I think my message can easily be misinterpreted (maybe I wasn't clear enough in my demonstration). This device should not be used at the same time with a fully safe and properly working Via Ferrata Set. It should only be use as an aid after a fall that will trigger the deployment of the shock absorber of the Via Ferrata Set. Once the Via Ferrata Set deploys is no longer safe and will no longer provide protection. That one is the moment when you add to your system this emergency device. Not before, not while climbing with a fully working, fully safe Via Ferrata Set.
This device should not be used as a third arm. Using it as a third arm can reduce the efficiency of the system in case of a fall.