DUAL GENERATOR FAULT | Lufthansa Emergency into Amsterdam
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
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![[REAL ATC] American B757 has COMPLETE RADIO FAILURE out of Kennedy!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wcq6KipBOro/mqdefault.jpg)
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Oopsie, losing both generators is not good. You still have APU+Rat in the A320? Only RAT? How do you operate? Airbus pilots, leave your comment here.
APU+RAT indeed, RAT will auto-deployed or be deployed manually in the first step of the EMER ELEC checklist
Once APU is started the RAT would only power the blue hydraulics (IIRC the RAT overrides the blue hydraulic pump)
RAT MAN ON in the overhead panel for manual deployment if it doesn't deploy automatically.
You get initially batteries only until the RAT autodeploys, but when you have the APU you have pretty much everything, although if both generators failed implies that the APU might not connect - the left and right electrical systems tend to be pretty separate so a fault kicking both of them off is unusual. Maybe something involving the tie between the systems?
Ok, more specifically: I expect what they tried is turning each generator on and off, then disconnecting the bus tie and doing that again. It's likely that one of those troubleshooting steps solved it, although what kicked them off in the first place is an interesting question.
@@benedictramage-mangles2622Almost everything. You would have a Main Galley Shed, but would have everything else.
Always proud of our Dutch ATC who are very professional and efficient as always.
Definitely
Professional and very proficient in English
My mother is from the Netherlands and I still have family there. A Dutch accent always sounds good to me.
At least tower didn't vector them to Oakland...
After putting them into an extended holding pattern 1st😂
🤣👍
😂😂😂
Yeah really… those SFO controllers are big time assholes.
:D had to laugh unbelievable what happens in San Francisco.
Amazing contrast to the conversations we often hear on this channel between pilots and controllers in the US. The conversations here are brief, professional, to the point. The Mayday is immediately copied and vectors given quickly. No back and forth or "say again?" The controller quickly offers a dedicated frequency to the emergency aircraft. Also, the other aircraft provide their maximum hold times without prompting when directed to hold. And for nearly everyone, English is not their native language! I hope we see more international ATC videos like this.
KLM54E 2.37 I like how this crew listens out and anticipate on the situation informing the controller about their (fuel) limit.
It's called situation awareness, an important qualification of a good flight crew
Love listening to Europe‘s ATCs. Shame it isn’t allowed to record in more countries.
I can't imagine a justification for that law that passes the smell test.
It used to be legal. Now it isn't any longer. "Security reasons". Yeah right... I guess it was some ATC Union that didn't like people nosing in on their work.@@roflchopter11
@@Quotenwagnerianer yeah, I had a feeling it was something like that. Smells like poop.
Yeah, Europe severely lacks transparency in aviation. Here, as a citizen, you cannot get access to incident reports, AIXM data, flight plans, hell, some countries have even their AIPs and NOTAMs hidden behind (free) registration. I believe in Austria, it's outright criminal offense to even possess a receiver that's able to tune into airband, while in the UK, it's illegal to listen.
It's considered a private conversation, similar to a phone call, from what I understand
Always amazed at European controllers and pilots handling of emergencies. Perfect. No extraneous comms, very efficient. The USA has a lot to learn.
😆 take your US gating crap else where. 🤡
I like that as soon as controller issues hold patterns that pilots automatically refer to available hold time
Is it surprising that they only have 5 to 15 minutes of hold time available? I know no one wants to take too much extra fuel, but seems a bit extreme that you would need to divert for a 15-minute delay. Maybe they had already hit weather or other delays previously.
@@brianholland5453KLM runs a tight ship, and they are burning contingency fuel; they'd still have plenty of alternate fuel in the tanks. There's usually very little need for contingency fuel, as extended holding is very rare at EHAM, and there are at least 7 alternates within 100nm. Even if this aircraft had to hold for 30 mins, it would likely only become an issue if they had to divert to an alternate and fly after several missed approaches there.
@@brianholland5453the flights within central Europe are already very short (e.g. Hamburg to Amsterdam exactly 1h), with many alternates in the vicinity.
@@brianholland5453 You need to be able to get to your alternate + 30 minutes of fuel. So, when they say "15 minutes hold" they're actually saying "I have an hour of fuel left. So in 15 minutes I need to fly for 10m to my alternate airport, and then hold there for 4 mins before I can land with 31 minutes of fuel remaining"
So, you're not dropping out of the sky after these 15 minutes. You still have plenty of time left to go to your alternate.
The controller, of course, knows and understands this, but neither party wants to deal with somebody saying "Mayday fuel", because that means you have a really annoying conversation with your chief pilot / supervisor.
I like this kind of video. Usually, we all focus on the emergency aircraft as that is where the story is. But seeing how the fallout of such incidents is handled is also very interesting.
That ATC guy... that guy plays or played chess in his life... Gave me the strong impression that each direction he gave, he had in his head everything perfectly calculated, where each plane was, and was going to be, time remaining as each crew stated minutes they could take... and also kept it ultra cool, despite having to handle a rather large... an European, let's just call it, amount of traffic... amazing, lots to learn from this one, thanks Victor!
Indeed, exactly!
This level of spatial awareness is far from Chess. Imo these ATC have a live map of their screens in their head.
Love the charts being overlayed. Great work Victor.
Thank you!
Damn this guy is about as professional as you can get.
Yepp he is.... most of them are.... though i once had a controller that made a complete mess causing crews to take over controll themselve.
Maybe US controllers should do english classes in the Netherlands
My daughter flies for Air Canada and she also likes the Dutch controllers.
They and Scandinavians speak better English than Americans sometimes. All mandate ESL in schools.
It's a problem with native speakers, they often use more localized dialects and don't really notice how that can deviate for people that had to learn English as a second language. For people for whom it is a second language, they all were taught a mostly similar language and they think more about their pronunciation.
Different training. More assumption of English only. More traffic. More hectic flight patterns. Less CPDLC to take off the load.
Yes true
I find it interesting that ATC didnt even ask pilot intentions, just immediately vectored in for landing and provided clearance.
Given the altitude and the type of failure, vectoring them straight in would have seen the logical thing to do. They still had some track miles and time to troubleshoot the issue, but even if they got the generators going again, there's no harm in giving them priority landing at that point in time. Especially since the aircraft was already planning on landing on that same runway.
It’s also worth noting that the pilot initially said “both engines- both generators failed” which would clearly give absolute priority to them in this case and save time, the pilots could request different instructions if that direct vectors for landing didn’t work for them.
He knew exactly what was needed. Get the plane on the ground immediately. So asking questions would delay the decent and every second counts.
Amsterdam runs so smoothly every time I fly there however I fly only around europe. Based on the recording I see, the American ATC seems to think they are the one flying the aircraft. In reality we fly it and we try accommodate them. My opinion tho and like I said I’ve not yet flown commercially into an American airport.
@@UniQue1812 American authorities are often incredibly unpleasant and difficult to deal with. The US does work rather differently, but there is a reason why more and more people just don't want to deal with it.
Came into heathrow a few years ago, 'Hospital' callsign, 200 NM out we had aircraft being thrown out of the way into various holds. Straight in, 4 ambulances, 5 fire engines, 10 or 12 police cars to meet us. Sick little girl, she made it ok. We were number 49 for our departure back to our military base!! :)
A dual generator failure is highly unusual, both are on separate circuits. Sounds like a bus tie or transformer card issue. If that's the case the APU might not be able to connect to the bus. But they should have enough battery power to get on the ground before that becomes an issue.
They'd also have the RAT connect direct to the AC ESS BUS
Even if the batteries become discharged, there is always the Ram Air Turbine (RAT) which on an A320 will automatically deploy and be operational within roughly 10 seconds from a double electrical bus fault (which is what this sounds more likely to be, as you mentioned).
Additionally, even if the flight left the ground with only one operational generator, the APU would have been running the entire flight to bring the aircraft back to the required redundancy.
And to top all that off, if they DID have both generators stop working or disconnect from the bus, but they were working when they took off, the APU can be started from the batteries within 90 seconds (45s normal startup, and the aircraft automatically delays APU start another 45s if there is a bus fault, likely to enable something like automated diagnostics and troubleshooting to log the needed data and arrive at a likely cause of failure).
SFO ATC would have put them in a hold and ask them if they wanted to go to their alternate. 😂
This is a MAYDAY
@@VASAviation it’s a joke!
@@VASAviationsarcasm detector has lost power
@@VASAviationyes it was a JOKE
@@yooein Yes, the detector was connected to the wrong bus.
Absolute pleasure to listen to such a competent professional controller at work in a high stress environment. Great management of the emergency aircraft, clearing all the the other heavy traffic whilst being flexible with hold pattern clearances to accommodate bad weather and also being mindful of maximum holding times possible for multiple aircraft. On top of that he's operating in perfect English which is probably his third language. If I'm ever in an emergency aircraft i can only hope this is the controller getting me on the ground.
Okay, wherever in the world your emergency occurs, fly directly to Amsterdam for your controller of choice.
I could listen to that voice all day.
Yeah, NL controllers do have a sexy accent in a professional kind of way.
Pretty easy to tell where this happened when over half the aircraft on the screen are KLM.
And Dutch accent on a lot of the people on frequency.
That must be LAX! No doubt about that.
Great communication by all.
What a briliant controller! He is re routing his entire traffic load like a champ! popping out vectors and instructions like a machine!
exceptionally professional ATC - as always - in these European emergencies - Netherlands especially
having a dedicated emergency freq seems like a mandatory good idea i guess
Such a good idea, I don't know why they don't do this in the US, some of these emergency videos on here in the US have so many frequency changes and other noise that the pilots shouldn't have to contend with in an emergency. Everything here was so clear and concise and straight to the point too, very well handled
This was a good video, very interesting to see how ATC deals with the delays and holding due to the emergency situation. The Dutch controller seemed 100% confident and in control.
ARTIP is pretty much directly overhead my house, during coov it was so weird to not hear any flight movements at all
ARTIP sounded familiar to me. It's very close to where I live as well. Also ARTIP is commonly used as a starting waypoint of many approaches to Schiphol. The waypoint is located at a new roundabout a little to the east of Lelystad (Swifterringweg/Dronterweg).
Racking and stacking over ARTIP - well done!
So refreshing to see this as opposed to the mess that can happen when ATC is unprofessional and thinks they’re better than everyone else
I’ve asked many pilots who their favourite ATC are, every single one say EHAM. 😂
I instantly get goosebumps when I hear MAYDAY callout.
Well done everyone! 👏🏻
A really tough situation handled very well by all participants, especially the ATC!👍 Thank you very much for picking the Incident up.
Terrible ATC, they didnt keep switching the emergency aircraft between frequencys, each seperate controller asking for souls on board and fuel in pounds...
What video did you watch?
@@VASAviationthink this was meant to be a joke
@@neelpi Yeah he's being Sarcastic.
😂😂
@@jasonwillis4819 yeah its sarcasm lol 😅
I am a dork for suggesting, that said, would it be possible (1) highlight the distressed aircraft in red, (2) breifly highlight the varied other aircraft in yellow as they are called and reply to atc, and (3) overlay this map on actual terrain, or at least the destination airport terrain? Oh, and if its not too much to ask, can I have a pony for christmas, lol? okay call me dork... but i would love to have a third observational dimension to what at is coping with... just sayin'. Been through Schipol safely dozens of times. That guy was as sharp as a razor..!
Copied all
A pink one with 3 legs?
Terrain? It’s completely flat in this area.
nice civilised chat about the max delay the pilots can handle with those (many) KLM flights.
Maybe somebody could take notes...
Shows just how little fuel everyone carries these days!
A dual generator failure is definetly bringing up your heartrate. But you have a Ram Air Turbine and also you can start the APU on batteries. After one minute the heartrate will be back to normal. The big question is: Why did both generators fail ? I am not sure wether an A320 can be dispatched with one failed generator but I believe so. Maybe one was already set inoperative and the second one quit duty during this flight. In that case the APU must have been running the entire flight anyways.
Thats totally possible. I dont think the rat was ever deployed, so to have 2 generators out and still be airborne, the apu had to be running. If it wasnt though, how much time do you have to start it before the batteries go?
@@MichaelOfRohanIf I read my docs right, the APU starter is inop without the emergency gen running. So about 30min.
If it wasn't running, rat would (be) deploy(ed).
@@MichaelOfRohan The batteries will not be used as long as the Ram Air Turbine is functioning. So technically there is no time limit. The plane will only be on batteries for a short time in final approach.
When they lost generators they were at flight level 282 so the recovery might actually have been that the APU started once they descended below 250.
@@MichaelOfRohan To all what we Know the RAT was deployed.
Considering the density of traffic at airports like AMS it makes a lot of sense to move an emergency to another controller and frequency, means the main controller for the moment can simply continue managing the already dense traffic which now needs to be put in various holds until the problem is resolved.
Literally just was reading this moments ago on the news.
Just like a very complicated puzzle.
The jobs all ATC-people do is so f*cking brilliant!
I think its awwsome that one of the diversion airports is Rotterdam. That airport is only about a 45 minute drive( about 50km) from Schiphol. Not like when I was flying to New York, and we had to divert to Philadelphia! It took me most of the next day on a train to get to NYC. Yikes.
jesus tap dancing christ that was awesome
what do pilots mean when they say: "we can accept X minutes" in the hold, as in otherwise they will have to divert due to min fuel? I thought the added fuel margin for holds and alternates was way bigger then, like at least 30 min of extra trip time
That 30 minutes of extra time is after the PIC discretion, contingency and alternate fuel is used up, basically its fuel you should not end up using only if something really goes wrong. And this 10-15 minutes delay in the holding before going to the alternate is PIC discretion fuel and it depends on how much more fuel the plane can take considering the route lenght and loading and also commanders decision based on experience.
Mentour Pilot's last video explains a lot about fuel issues.
ruclips.net/video/ERXG4qoI4TA/видео.htmlsi=JAr2lLdSyQFeGD3d
There is the alternate fuel - fuel needed for the diversion, and the holding margin - which for short flights is typically very small, and even for longer is often around 15min of holding at Fl150 (or whatever the company specifies). Any additional would be the captain's discretion.
As soon as they only had diversion/alternate fuel + final reserve, they would need to divert.
So if they had planned for ~10min of holding fuel (and had that at the point) with no pic extra fuel, that would be after 10min in the hold (possibly also calculating whether they had more fuel than planned and how much they'd use in the holding regarding speed and altitude)
and I think if the weather is good enough and atc can give a precise estimate for the approach (some other rules apply, like at least two independent runways at the airport and stuff), the pilots can decide to burn into the diversion fuel and lock in on the airport instead of diverting, but with an indefinite delay they are not allowed to do so as far as I know
@@lyaneris
Love the Dutch.
Fun fact, JetBlue also had a A320 dual generator failure a few weeks ago, down in Florida. I wonder if related???
Why should it be related? 2 different airlines and areas of the world
@@jbmonkesame aircraft design, therefore good chance of same design or maintenance flaw
2 planes with only 15 min max hold time? Is that normal? I thought they were required to carry enough fuel for a potential extended delay before it becomes neccassary to divert
They're still required to carry that extra fuel even *after* deciding to divert. The point of that fuel is not to avoid diverting, it's to avoid running out of fuel. So when the remaining fuel is equal to what they need to get to the alternate airport, plus the final reserve (I think 45 minutes of fuel), then they need to divert.
@@yarati4584 I think you missed my point.
Obviously they need fuel to divert + a safety margin for that too.
I Thiught they required a surplus for _before_ it gets to that point.
I guess you could call it 2 separate reserves.
I thought planes could hold for an hour or more before diverting. But maybe they only do that when they anyway had excess because they bought it cheaper and carried it around
@@LeeSmith-cf1vo they have contingency fuel but for short European flights this is often only about 15-20 mins if they haven't already used it.
going to Rotterdam, Lelystad, Eindhoven or Groningen would be 10-15 minutes extra from Artip. Artip is almost on top of Lelystad.
@@Terrorrai1And if you want a longer runway (or two/ ILS CAT IIIb), Düsseldorf is also right there :)
ATC could have considered giving heading vectors to reduce the flight crew workload.
That's more workload
@@VASAviationNot if they have to ask to spell the waypoint while they probably have QRH underway.
Better than having vector instructions every 2 minutes
@@VASAviation No. Other traffic is cleared as per common practice and "when ready report intentions". Waypoints require MCDU input which is more workload compared to heading input to FCU.
changing the FCU every 2 minutes for headinh is definitely more workload. Loading a holding into the MCDU takes 10 seconds and no more workload until you exit. Come on, are you a pilot at all?
I hear an ECAM chime when they called mayday
Seeing how quick the generator problem was solved maybe PAN-PAN would have been sufficiant?
Dual Gen failure is a MAYDAY and LAND ASAP situation. Getting the APU GEN to work after a dual gen failure is not very likely in the first place and it doesn't start above 25000ft.
So if it doesn't work you got severely reduced instrumentation and alternate into direct law - and 3.5+ minutes off the batteries, which you need for the landing.
Could be wrong, but that German sounding KLM pilot is that the wet leased (plane and crew) airbus for a German airliner?
Yes indeed, German Airways
Good thing it wasn’t useless SFO controllers.
Schipol is also a much easier airport to work with. It's built on a plain with no real natural obstacles and it's further away from the main population centre of Amsterdam. Most importantly, it's designed to cope with the traffic that it handles. SFO is built in the middle of urban sprawl with mountains and the San Francisco Bay surrounding it. The Netherlands and Germany use the same EASA procedures.
The hum that's heard on most of the audio from the various planes is dues to what? The 400hz AC power supply? The gyros?
By definition, 400Hz would be AC not DC!
@@Ben-kt5rc You are correct! Fixed. Tks.
I read "both generations failed" in the thumbnail and was like what?? 😂
but they did....
now it's time for generation Z to fail😅
If 2 engine generator failure, can we switch to apu gen in flight ?
Yes, and the APU will usually auto-start when a loss of both AC buses is detected.
@@EdOeunayou sure in the A320? Only ever seen this in the A350
@@tomstravels520 - tbh I don’t know about Airbus, but it does in my Boeing, but I’d assume that an APU would auto start when there’s a total loss of AC power.
@@EdOeuna the A350 (and possibly A380) do but cannot see anything where the A320/A330 family does unless it’s a very new feature. But on the A320 after dual generator loss usually one of the first ECAM calls is to reset the generators and if that fails switch off the BUSS TIE and try again
@@EdOeuna APU doesn't autostart and shouldn't be started above FL250 in emergency elec config.
There is only one common system between those two independent generators. Makes you wonder.
very well handled the situation. weird to say, but i hope we can get more EU videos in the future.
Ai rilley laik se tjermans spiekink inklish. You now where we come from, we can't disguise it.
😅
Am I the only one who heard "both engines" and thought of Sulley?
Wow first SFO now this
They can only stay 10 Minutes in the holding ,then KLM has to go to Rotterdam 🤔
So? And Schiphol has 6 runways so chance of mayhem isnt big
Rotterdam is 10 minutes away by plane. that ATC screen was the whole with of the country
they have so many runway, why they can only hold for 10 min and not aim another runway
With MAYDAYs it's not about the number of runways - it's about CFR capability. If they only had enough for one plane available, no one else is going to move (a bit more complicated, but that's the gist).
I once witnessed a ground emergency. The whole airport stopped. Nothing moved and all planes went around.
Was this worth a MAYDAY? Loosing two generators definitely gets your attention as a pilot, but is it life threatening (definition of a MAYDAY)? PAN PAN absolutely. Well, when in doubt: MAYDAY, of course, do not hesitate.
Double generator failure?
Yes
@@VASAviation this Is bad
If both generators in both engines failed, couldn't they just deploy the APU for power?
the ram air turbine did deploy
Yes but I takes a minute to power on
The key question is why did they both fail and is it going to get worse.
@@benoithudson7235 only way it would get worse is if the AC’s Bus’s themselves failed because then you cannot restore power by using the APU gen
@@tomstravels520 : that's hardly the only possible thing that could fail next. If whatever caused them both to fail is a short circuit somewhere, you could be looking at a fire; the pilots don't know that's what happened, but they also don't know it isn't. So, sure, they can operate without generators for a while (pretty much indefinitely) -- still best to get on the ground ASAP.
Question from an idiot who has no idea how airplanes work.
Why is the maximum holding time for most other planes so short (5-10 minutes)
What is the limting factor preventing them from staying in the air longer? It's not fuel I guess, or at least I always thought they had much more fuel than just a couple of extra minutes.
aaaAAAAA JIMMYYYYYY
… uhm … Amsterdam is EHAM…
The airport is, Amsterdam Radar is EHAA.
Hardly worth a mayday given that they have the APU still, as an equivalent source of power for at least one AC bus, or both buses with load shedding.
ok boss if you say so
And yet planes in the US have engine fire or failure and don’t declare an emergency. No pleasing some people. APU takes a minute to power on assuming that is the first thing they did so for that minute I would rather call a mayday due to the limited information I’d have in the cockpit and limited systems working
@@kottelettchen389 - it doesn’t meet the definition of a mayday. Other than getting tighter vectors for an approach nothing else changed. They still maintained control of the aircraft. There was sufficient backup systems to provide power to the flight controls and at least the Captains instruments. Doesn’t really fall under the “imminent loss of life” criteria for a mayday.
God help me he is actually serious
Does it matter? Panpan or mayday or declaring an emergency basically says they get priority and access to alternate airports that might not have been available otherwise. Unless some other plane comes in with another emergency at the same time.... But I'm sure they'd do their damndest to help both out so, essentially interchangeable, no?
I have a feeling this ATC guy would never say something like "this conversation is over" 🥸