The State of Whiskey, Past/Present/Future, according to the Bourbon Junkies!
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2022
- Dan and I were just talking about how crazy whiskey has gotten in the last couple of years and he said, "we should record this". So here is us talking about where we've seen whiskey come from to where we think it's going. Along with that a couple other little topics thrown in there as well, hope you all enjoy a slightly longer format!
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I am a frequent customer at the same store. When they get a big drop you will always see 10 or more people sitting around in the store waiting for the bottles to become available. These are people that rarely shop there, but seem to get a tip of what the store is going to get and when it will arrive. Willing to bet they go store to store during the day, and will sell it all on secondary shortly after. I'm tired of the hunt and competing with these flippers.
All good stuff here, guys. I agree that consumer burnout is definitely a thing and I've felt it personally as well. I'm sitting on a lot of things I need to review yet, but the prices for most stuff has just gotten outrageous and there's so much that's still too hard to track down so I just don't. Like you mentioned with the OF and 4R LE releases...I think the only people that are (and can) continue to drop money and time to get those special bottles are people that already have the extra time and money. The rest of us are gonna have to stick to brands and expressions we already know, like and can afford. It'll be interesting to see what happens for sure though. Cheers!
2017 is when I really started getting into whisky. One of my whisky drinking friends opened my eyes to Elmer T Lee and I fell in love with the stuff and could occasionally find it at my local sellers and it was $39.99 I owned and enjoyed drinking 6 bottles with my wife and friends. Little did I know that I would RARELY ever see a bottle again and now it is now $400 to $700.
I've never been a fan of secondary, it just seems antithetical to the spirit of whiskey. I refuse to shop at stores that jack up their own prices to secondary levels. I just can't support that behavior, the last thing you want whiskey to do is leave a bad taste in your mouth. I've moved to rum at this point, you can find 18YO rums aged in ex-bourbon casks for well under 100 bucks.
I got my buddy into whiskey and he just Willy Nilly buys stuff at secondary like 😐 “I got Blantons”. Meanwhile I’m reeling that he just doesn’t care that it’s marked up 2-3-4 times.
@@35057 Yeah, I mean there wouldn't be secondary market if there wasn't a demand for it. Hopefully a decade down the line when all these major distilleries have doubled/tripled production these scalpers will be left holding the bag like all these a-holes with a closet full of PS5's. Here's to hoping!
Another thing is that liquor store owners are “forced” to order bottles that don’t sell well in order to guarantee that they will receive allocated bottles. So in theory they have to spent a lot more to get them.
True. I was informed of that by a pretty average liquor store that has a decent amount of whiskey, but nothing really exciting. He has to buy like 20 or 30 cases of some random vodka just to get the allocated bourbon. If I was a store owner I would be livid putting up with that.
Love hearing what you guys think about the industry! Make this a regular segment!
...like a quarterly update on the developement of the whisky realm. I'd very much appreciate that!
Great info video! Thanks for bringing these out every once in awhile. Would love to see one on the future of distilling/aging and where you think the next new 'type" of whiskey comes to the forefront. Excellent job Junkies thanks for the info.
This has been one of my favorite conversation topics that you guys have had! As really only being into bourbon the past 3 years, you guys doing review videos really helps with determining wether to buy a new release (ECBP, High West, Chattanooga, etc) or to maybe just wait until something else comes along. I think this gives bourbon drinkers a lot to think about especially for the future
That's the thing; you don't need for something else to come along. People.....there's great whisk(e)y sitting on the shelves right now!!
Beam , Wild Turkey , Heavenhill, distilleries under Brown-Forman , and VA. produced bourbons are what I'm sticking to. Awesome topic guys. 🥃
A great and important conversation. Great job as always guys!
Guys...great content.
I recently learned from a Sazerac/BT Rep, that Ohio is a test market for Weller and that OH gets more Weller than any other state...so good for you guys!
AND, "every whiskey out of Buffalo Trace Distillery is allocated by state. Beginning with our bottom shelf products (KY Gentlemen, KY Tavern, etc.) all the way to Pappy Van Winkle."
This conversation started with me asking when Benchmark Bonded would be available in my state (been looking for it since you guys reviewed it). The answer was, maybe later this year 😞
Great video guys! Very transparent and relatable!
Love the new whiskey castle! Love the homage (assume this was intended) to the original BJ videos with the concrete white block videos from years ago with the new backdrop. So happy to see how this community has grown over the last couple of years. Wishing you guys the best of success going forward! #BJSforlife
Give it three more years…I recall the cigar boom of the 1990’s…this feels exactly the same…things will calm down and we will have more choices than ever an need your guidance to navigate the multitude of bottles.
New generation whiskey drinker here, I also happen to work at a state controlled liquor store. I'm up to maybe 20 bottles of various bourbons and scotch whiskeys from 1792 single barrel to Stagg Jr. Adding to the whiskey collection has been like Pokemon for someone with a 401K. Its a cool experience and it introduces you to cool people.
Great video on the current situation with all the pours! You should do an updated video on how to read the label on a bottle, what's important to know, and the marketing tricks with the wording.
Awesome video fellas, as always. It's interesting to watch this from my perspective, being in NC - a controlled state. IF you ever find anything in store, you know you'll pay MSRP, but the rub is...you don't find anything in store. Most collectible bottles here go into lotteries, are held "in the back" or never even make it into the store and go straight from the truck into someone's back seat. There are a few great stores around here that will get some cool bottles, but buying off the shelf is a thing of the past for the most part. Lotteries, local bourbon clubs, and buying online are the way to go in a controlled state if you're looking for anything even somewhat rare or allocated. Cheers!
Great topics and well covered. As a long time bourbon drinker, I have been surprised by the "hoarding" that in my view has driven prices higher along with the VID. But maybe it's the internet of things that gave rise to the secondary prices and is equally contributing to the price bump that has definitely occurred. My best personal example is purchasing EH Taylor barrel strength for $55 6 years ago and an EH Taylor small batch for $65 within the past 3 years. I learned about MGP via the whiskey tube and how to shop listening to you guys. I love to find good stuff in the wild. My best summer purchase this year was an Old Forester single barrel store pick. I may not have enough time to drink what I own and have no intention to sell any bottle I have bought. And I still want more, but have put the brakes on as best I can. Transparency in labeling is a must for anything over $70. I have never seen an Elmer T Lee in a store and don't look for that brand. Thanks for your thoughts and humor. Be well
At what point (at least based on a # of bottles of a specific product) are you considering bottle hoarding contributing to it? I’ve had 1 opened, 1 backup Antique 107 at a time- is this hoarding?
I definitely fall into your “new whiskey drinker” generation you described. Mid twenties, I want transparency, something new and something good. Chattanooga whiskey is my favorite brand for that very reason.
Hey guys. Great topic. Sadly a painful one. I’m burnt out too. Pretty much sticking to my favorites. Maybe 1or2 of something expensive. I’m guilty of fomo buying and overpaying. Trying really hard to quit that.
It’s getting so bad at my local stores, that the owners, of whom I’ve spent allot of time, energy, and money at, don’t care if I want to drink it, or open it with them. They’ll give me a discount. But, the prices are still way up.
I think it’s only going to get worse.
Great video guys. I always learn alot when you guys cover topics like this.
One of your best videos. I have been drinking bourbon for over 30 years. Count me in as burnt out on trying to keep up with all the new product. I am retreating to just keeping my favorites in hand. I will save my bourbon adventures for bourbon bars that offer flights.
You guys nailed it. I'm so tired of everything I'm off loading everything extra and converting 10 to 20 meh bottles into 1 or 2 dusty bottles
Great Video Guys, interesting how talking about these issues lead to many more questions. I recently started watching some of Ralfie’s content and he said something several times that is intriguing and you would hope the producers of whiskey would take to heart. “ what’s on the bottle is a contract between the producer and the consumer”, as you pointed out and other channels pointed out is producers need to be honest and transparent with their product. If not don’t buy it.
I agree with most of what you guys have said. As long as people keep paying the price though, the price will continue to go up. I am in the premium wine industry, so I have experienced this phenomenon over a long period of time now - you know, the rising tide! The one point I disagree with you on is, owners are not losing money selling allocated Bourbons at retail. If they are doing it right, then allocated products are a thank you to a loyal clientele who don't just buy and look for Buffalo Trace products (as an example). Retailers couldn't keep the doors open selling Stagg at 10x retail because they don't get enough product and if they did, it wouldn't be allocated anymore! Love your content Junkies!
Cheers on some astute points! I got into bourbon through family a year or so before Covid, so I feel in the demographic you expressed. As my pallet was expanding everything I was finally willing to pt for was gone. After branching out to close to 100 different offerings (and a few grand later) I am now in a place where I am limiting my bar down to 20 bottles I know like. I am gun shy now about trying different things without transparency. I think you hit it on the head with your analysis!
Really insightful conversation, I totally agree that consumer burnout is real. Life is busy, everything costs way more since even before the pandemic started and I find myself more and more just going for reasonably priced stuff that has great availability and runs circles around way more expensive stuff.
good insight gentlemen. thanks for talking about this.
Drove down to Four Roses and got 2 bottles of the 16 year old release. It was only bad at the Cox Creek facility. Got to the main distillery at 7:30 am and was like # 300 in line, got my 2 bottles and left. Buffalo Trace had EH small batch in gift shop so stopped there at noon and they had like 100 bottles on shelf so picked that up too.
Gotta say I really enjoyed this video. I’ve been looking forward to something like this for a while. I got into whiskey long before Covid and this boom that we are in right now, and I’m at the point now where I’m kind of over the constant bombardment of limited releases, special editions, no name brands, expensive sourced stuff that’s non-transparent etc. I know what I like and it’s generally fairly available. If all I could drink is what was currently on my shelf or in my cabinet I would be just fine. I’m simply not willing to spend $80-$100 anymore on something I may or may not like when I can spend $60 and get something I know I like for sure. There’s WAYYY too much out there and available still. Not to say I can’t or don’t appreciate the stuff like BTAC, OFBB, 4R LE etc. hunting just isn’t that fun for me. Store picks of things I buy anyway keep me pretty happy at the moment. I’m sticking with known quantities for the time being.
I just spent the last 24:44 looking at the bourbon junkie sign behind you that's not centered. My OCD is going CRAZY!!
Btw great informative video
I'm waiting for Woodinville to start releasing some older bourbon. I believe at 8-10yr they will rival 4R and I am a huge 4r fan
One missing item are distilleries proposing now a membership, where you are guaranteed to obtain any releases that are coming, plus delivery to your frontdoor. That concept is quite interesting. The limitation is the number of memberships available.
Transparency. That is key for me. I look for bottles that are clear about the quality of their ingredients and process. I am suspicious of marketing fluff!
Great fire side chat and very valid points on things going on currently and some serious issues that need addressed because of secondary!
Born and raised in Louisville, Kentucky. Bartend for a living and these guys are spot on with that state of bourbon these days. I’m even blessed living where I do but it’s just like that here.
Side note - I love how every single bottle on the shelf it open
Is*
Bourbon drinker not a collector, I find myself avoiding the bourbons I use to drink due to prices or availability. I find myself falling back on the Elijah Craig or Woodford Reserve because it's available and still relatively affordable. My 40 dollar bottle of Eagle Rare is a thing of the past, If I see Buffalo Trace at less than 30 a bottle I snap it up. And It's only going to get worse as wheat and other grain prices are climbing.
I am fortunate enough to find Eagle Rare once in awhile still for $30.00 a bottle, but I know that will soon be a thing of the past.
My collection was 5 whiskeys pre-vid. I'm now 38 post-vid. Part of the new Virginia system, which has been a mixed bag. Got some bangers that I'd never had a chance of before. There is still the thought that people are getting inside info on drops.
My parents went to SC this summer and grabbed me a bottle of elijah craig private barrel for $100 and it was fantastic! Took it to a friends bourbon night and half the bottle was gone in one night! I wish we could get stuff like that in PA, didnt realize how much PA sucked with alcohol restrictions until i started traveling
Can’t wait to plan/have our AB/Virtue event!
I’d LOVE to pay secondary prices at stores. They’re all at 130-300% of secondary on any EHT, Weller, ER, Blantons, etc.
New back ground looks sick!
Great video with good perspective
I agree regarding the new generation of whiskey drinkers, I’m 25, a huge whiskey nerd and I feel the exact way you just talked about
Great informative show guys. Yea the Whiskey worlds best. Has to be the new digs BJ,s 👌
In Alabama all allocations are controlled by the state. We get a drop of different bottles once a month. They split those between 2 tables and are allowed a bottle from each table per trip through the line until its sold. The prices are msrp. So we can get a chance at them at msrp. They have a huge one at the end of the year that has all the btac and other special bottles.
Fantastic video! 👏👏👏👏
20 years ago, I'd buy Rock Hill Farms or Blanton's for the weekend at about 45 per bottle. I can still get most good bottles because of my long relationship with a couple of stores, but as a long-time bourbon drinker, this bourbon boom over the past five years has been a pain in the arse. It used to be so easy to go in and find a good bottle sitting on the shelf, but now it's a struggle to beat out some goofball that is just selling on secondary or "collecting" a bunch of stuff and not drinking it.
If you go into a liquor store nowadays and can't find a good bottle of whiskey, you're blinder than Stevie Wonder. We're living in the golden age of American whiskey, and the stores are chock full of great stuff; just not the LE hotness that's mostly overhyped anyways.
@@pickleeater3102 You're missing my point. 20 years ago you could walk into a liquor store and find a good bottle of whiskey as well, but you didn't have to worry about anything being "allocated." Most of the stuff these taters are 'hunting' for are things I used to buy off the shelf years ago. And I drank them. The taters are sitting them on the shelf or flipping them on secondary. If I feel like having some Rock Hill Farms for the weekend, I can't just walk in the store and pick it up off the shelf. That's my point. I totally agree with you that there is plenty of good whiskey on the shelf at any liquor store. Things I've been drinking since 1995, like WT101 or KC9, beat the crap out of most of this limited edition garbage.
@@harmoncollege no, I get your point. A movie theater ticket used to be a couple bucks. Cheers Chris.
@@pickleeater3102 not the same thing at all, as I wasn't talking about the price of booze. And there's no allocation or secondary market for movie tickets. Sure, things change in all areas as time goes on. We can definitely agree on that. But taters have ruined things for longtime bourbon drinkers.
@@harmoncollege yeah, I was just using that example as nothing remains the same. I've told many people that I can't wait for this bourbon bubble to burst.
Whiskey is following what craft beer did 20 years ago. Great show gents.
We have a new distillery that was built a few years ago. It’s 30 minutes from my home in southern Kentucky been waiting for them to open up for visits and tastings. They are doing events (that I keep missing 😩). Hoping they make a great product as you never know who’s gonna make the next home run whiskey.
AMAZING video! I'm one of those who really got into bourbon when The 'Vid hit and I'm already like "WTF has happened to this industry?" Like you guys said.. all these high-priced bottles with no information or transparency need to go. Hoping those meet their end sooner rather than later.
Good call on opening in the store
Well said, I know I’m fatigued chasing the super hype allocated stuff. Luckily I can still find lots of stuff I like to drink still so it’s all good.
That's my hope too Dan!!!! That works be the best
Great show guys!
My local store will let you get an allocated bottle at retail after purchasing 10 bottles over $40. I picked up Blue Spot for $90, Smoke Wagon Experimental Rye for $215, Stagg Jr for $55, and so. Another store does raffles once a month on the same principle, you get one lottery ticket for each purchase over $40.
What a great topic guys, thank you.
I think a long harsh Winter is coming to American whiskey. Demand has lots of room to grow, far exceeding all the distillers recent billion dollar expansions. Also younger drinkers will care less about purity and age, so 2 year old bourbons, additives, added coloring, added sugar etc. won’t bother them, much like what’s happened to craft beer. This will give rise to flavored whiskeys, bottled bourbon cocktails, and other concoctions displacing aged bourbon & ryes. Whiskey tubers annual Top 10 whiskeys will get worse over time. Just some morbid speculation.
Just noticed you have that fable and folly on that shelf with incredible bottles, you like it that much or just the label?
I stopped looking for unicorns over a year ago when prices got overly ridiculous. The only searching I do for something out of the ordinary is online for local stores.
I'm back to just having daily drinkers (a Bourbon, Rye, TN Whiskey, Rum, Single Malt Scotch) in my bar + a few next level tier bottles (i.e. Single Barrels, Small Batches, special Scotches).
Currently, there are no bottles over $100 in my bar.
Si, great content as always!
Here in So Cal we've seen a different game being played (along with what you've stated), its called bundling. I got a Stagg basically for 250.00 but had to buy all the other lessor products that Sazerac puts out for a total of 350.00. I choose wisely the best I could but still ended up with a couple of dogs. I don't really like this method, but I did get Stagg for a somewhat fair price. Even though it was the most expensive bottle I've ever purchased. Here's to change for the positive. Cheers.
Yeah there are a couple brands that are pretty famous for off loading their other lines on stores to get their better offerings. Hence why you see the "3 bottles of this vodka to purchase 1 of these" exists
Some stores are bundling bottles by different makers. Today saw Weller Cypb with 3 very bad bottles for $1K. So it's a $1K bottle of Weller.
Good stuff. I'm ok sticking with my regular MSRP goto Whiskey's. These secondary prices get out of hand.
I live right in the border of Oregon (control state) and Washington (no rules, crazy sin tax). There are a handful of stores in Washington that have very fair prices and I'm extremely loyal to those stores. The competition in Oregon is tougher, but at least the prices are fixed. They used to do waiting lists and lotteries, but the State put an end to that and now allocated bottles have to be put on the shelf when the stores receive them. What most stores are doing now is limiting customers to one allocation per month to stop people with time and money from showing up at opening time every single day.
The lottery system has a huge flaw. You have to pick it up from them at the distillery. They will not ship the bottle. So realistically it's still going to eliminate alot of people outside of the state from acquiring a bottle. I live in Louisiana and entered the lottery. By the time I pay the fuel and hotel stay to get there and back, it's not worth getting the bottle.
Yea we get that 100%, there are going to be pro's and con's to every system that they try and use. No matter what someone will think it unfair with any system.
2 store chains in IL that still sell allocated for MSRP, but unfortunately everyone in my area is aware of those stores as well, so it's all about timing and luck.
And the price of Bung Holes have gone WAY up. The secondary price for a Bung Hole? Don’t even get me STARTED!
Fair prices are still out there. Just got back from a trip to VA and all the ABC stores had John J Bowman marked down to $39!
At my go to liquor store most hard to get Bourbon/whiskeys are one bottle per customer per visit. But heck they just come back the next day or send in their buddy to get another bottle.
I live in Alaska. Born in Kentucky, and I would consider flying back home for a "guaranteed limited" depending on the producer.
Nice video
Literally hit the nail on the head I will not spend a crazy amount on a bottle that does not specify or tell me anything about it with how much everything cost these days that's just too much of a Gamble for me to do with liquor even though whiskey is a hobby literally seen a bottle of Kentucky owl confiscated for MSRP that I passed on because they tell me nothing about it
Great topic, Luv your new whiskey wall 👍, let me know if u need some Oreos on the wall 😂, ❤️ ya guys
Watching this video makes me so happy to be a veteran living in a military town where I can still purchase bourbon, on the military bases at very reasonable prices.
Have you guys had anything from ASW Distillery from Atlanta?
My problem with everything is that people think it’s ok price gouge the crap out of a bottle. I live on Long Island NY and even stores are going insane on prices. I had a store the other week say they have lagavulin 16 and asking $500 per bottle. I know 4 other stores in my area that are asking 90-110.
I live in KY and have been collecting/drinking for about 2yrs now and I have not seen Elmer T Lee at all, and Stagg JR have seen it twice for >300. Things are crazy and personally refuse to pay secondary prices and my bottle price limit is 200. The juice better makes me younger or healthier if I am going to pay more than that.
Please review the Ben Holladay BIB Bourbon if you can get it. Thanks!
I found a bottle of Elmer T Lee in a store here in WA state for $199. High but by far best I could find it here or online
As someone who definitely got in to bourbon specifically during COVID and realizing how much I enjoy it, it's been extremely frustrating to see this trend continue. There are bottles that I'm not willing to chase because of the price but i feel as though I'm missing out on so much because I'm on an average consumers budget where i don't like spending more than $60-$100 on a bottle. There are so many good bottles at that $60 price point but I'd be lying if i said i wouldn't love to get my hands on some of these bottles that are typically $60 but on secondary it's 5X that.
The current prices have killed my FOMO. Now it's EV BiB, 1783, OF 100, and those like bourbons.
I do appreciate it when you do your instead of this allocated bourbon this is as good or better videos because even knowing owners doesn't guarantee you getting anything just not enough to go around
The future’s a tough one to guess. Remember all those experts 5 years ago warning us all that the Blanton and Pappys would be impossible to get and 10 times retail IF you could even find them and we didn’t listen… No, neither do I.
The difference between MSRP and “market”/secondary price is called arbitrage. It’s very real thing and there are entire industries based on capitalizing on this number.
Great video. So tired of the jacked up pricing. Tired of chasing limited stuff that can’t be found. definitely have consumer burnout. Have been completely taken advantage of by marketing and hype over the years. Have paid $80 to $120 for bottles that weren’t any better than $40 bottles. I’m good with four roses small batch, Evan Williams single barrel, belle meade reserve, russels reserve, wild turkey rare breed, makers 101, Elijah Craig, etc. I just hope the overhyping of the market doesn’t increase the pricing on these as well.
The market for 4-6 year products will be absolutely cutthroat over the next 5 years. I think a lot of folks have accepted $60-80 or even $80-100 per bottle as a new normal, but it makes them more discerning as well, and as you both said "less likely to take a chance on something." There's so many new or growing distilleries who will be bringing massive amounts of 4-6 year barrels into the market because they can't afford to sit on them that there will be an inevitable squeeze. This isn't going to affect just producers, but NDPs, investment barrels, contract distillers, brokers, and more. Despite rising costs across the board, my presumption right now is that pretty much anyone above a certain size can still make a healthy profit in 2022 (again as you said, nobody is scaling back yet). Market pressure will drive some brands into the red from increased competition and rising costs. My guess is this will primarily affect craft distillers who haven't had the time/money to scale up production and the NDPs that cannot buy barrels cheaply enough to be competitive. To make it work in 2023-2026 those producers with young barrels will need to strike a careful balance of value, creativity, and successful branding.
Sell leftover lottery bottles at the distillery so the same handful of KY locals can scoop it up and put it on secondary like they do for every good release?
So true today: fair retailers get screwed by hack flippers so they end up jacking up prices and doing combo packs. I’ve become much more selective as to allocated and look for alternative new releases that often are better in profile that the hard to get, and mostly at a better price. We can get back to normal if we all don’t by in to the hype and FOMO. Cheers to a better bourbon future!
I like stores that do bundles for allocation. It adds cost to the allocated bottle deterring flippers, increases unit movement for the store giving them a better relationship w the distributor giving them a better chance on store picks and allocation, and for drinkers it gives us a daily to pair with something we may not go to as often because of rarity…
Got a blood oath 8 this AM. They were sold out before they got off the truck. Competition is real for Allocation by distributor AND the retail store. 10 regulars looking for the same 20 bottles, when a store only gets 2-3 bottles now.
Brutal.
Unfortunately, I'm burned out from hunting. Luckily there are less glamorous, but available heavy hitters. Makers does a good job with a variety of available enthusiast bottles.
Cookie is the star of this show! 😼
A question I have is will brands begin doing American whiskey and reusing their barrels?
I quit chasing allocated bottles a few years ago. I wont over pay for any allocated stuff. Instead I look for single barrels. It seems every store has a KC and Makers picks and usually they are not over priced.
I’ve honestly been turned off by the price gouging. I live in Kentucky and the lines at the distillery and prices are outrageous. Buffalo trace used to be a daily drinker. Now you can’t find it.
Consider this:
If you're a home distiller, you can easily make a whiskey that
- is cask strength
- is single barrel
- you know every last thing about
- will never be replicated
- is inexpensive to make (excluding some one-time equipment costs)
Food for thought 😶
If only it were extremely easy to make even decent whiskey! Investment would be in the thousands as well even for a cheaper setup.
Well you can get everything you need for gallon batches for under $1k but you'll find yourself squeezing grain through a seive for an hour after the mash is done lol. You can do it fairly inexpensively and make a good product that can stand up to mid-range commercial products, but you'll be moving a lot of buckets by hand and getting corn all over you shed haha.
Hope the vampire is feeling better !
lol love the cat just doing. what it wants
would be the same at my house
I no longer live in a van down by the river. Not enough room for all my whisky!
There is a solution. Turkey 101. Also, If the entire whiskey community simply said NO, the prices will go down.
Great video! I know it’s been a lot harder for me to get bottles to review on my channel this year. I only have so much time and it takes way more effort to get the new release good stuff now
That’s a great dream Dan.