The; whole time you were kiting I was thinking... FEET FORWARD... and you explained just that. Well done bud! I learned to kite in high winds and it only took one face full of sand to teach me that lesson. :)
A couple of things I thought of watching this: 1) You put it in the GH challenge but maybe it's no good for the seed? You can kill it with As in high wind. For those that don't know: A sharp tug on the As causes a frontal collapse. You can then run toward the wing with a couple wraps on the brakes, or toward a wingtip to get it sideways to the wind, either will prevent reinflation. 2) In strong wind there's the "Torrey Pines Inflation". You can inflate the wing in big ears, and then allow the tips to inflate when you're ready. Great for using a full size or tandem wing in strong conditions. Saw it first here: ruclips.net/video/Zbvh45_K26M/видео.html
1) I don't think it pulling on the As would be a good idea as the wind was just so strong and any frontal collapses just reopened with massive amount of power. Bear in mind that with this much wind you almost can't keep it down no matter how much brake you pull so if it works it would be extremely hard and very violent for you and the wing. 2) Absolutely, I also saw that video recently and looks like a great technique and want to try it. Thanks so much for taking the time to write a comment and share your experience!
In high wind beach soaring I find it useful to connect the glider in "reversed" position with leading edge down, like when overshooting in downwind landing... You will notice that the glider will be nicely "pinned" and this a safe situation. Now you can bring the glider up with a controlled brake input on one side. To bring it down again you can bring it in cobra an with a short brake input on the low side it will land with the leading edge down. Go off the brakes and you are safe again.
Thanks very much for the tutorial! I had been thinking about this very subject just yesterday and wishing I could find a video like this. I have a 28m Dudek ReportAir and last year about this time I got launched in the air, slammed on the ground and then dragged about 50 yards all the while pulling more and more brakes thinking that would help.
I can "master" my full size wing using C's in stronger wind, and hardly use my brakes at all. It still wants to refill and launch/drag with massive amounts of C, so have to get one wingtip down and kill that sucker fast when ready to keep in on the ground. With the wing low in the power zone it really wants to pull. Like you said, make sure you've got plenty of room downwind to work with.
Thanks for this series. Lots of good skills. The reason that we may "plank" ether forward or backward, is to weight the wing with as much body weight as possible while still being in contact with the ground to prevent us from swinging out of control. Weighting the wing make it fly forwards, less weight wing drops back into "power zone"= more pulling less lifting
Some guy told me to use a more performant wing for groundhandling than what I fly. So i bought an overused small En-D 3 liner wing even though I fly an En-B. First time I tried the En-D felt like I started over from scratch. But then, after a few hours I got the wing under control and my flying wing is way more predictable.
This is my main reason for following your channels, paragliders, for more than 10 YEARS. living at an altitude of 678 meters above sea level, looking at my place of origin at a height... while wishing I could fly above the earth's surface... because a paragliding parachute WILL NOT BE REACHABLE FOR ME......
@@AndreBandarra1 thank you for the prompt response! It seems like at some moments, your weight was lifted up by the wing…With 12 m2 wing and that wind speed, your weight (you + your clothe+ wing + harness) must have been around 205 pounds…does that sound approximately ok?
Yes that was fun, high wind ground handling with the Seed, I saw somewhere that when you get the down run as fast as poss 90 degrees so you are safe and then quickly gather up the lines before she Flys again? Thanks again.
Yeah I've used that technique with my full size wing and medium to high wind Peter but in this case, with very strong wind I found that i just doesn't quite work, it basically outruns you getting blown by the wind. it might work though to run to it and jump on one of the wingtips
some tips to push up in strong wind is 1. Instead of walking directly parallel with the wind walk at 45 degree angles to try to push forward. 2. I do not recommend doing this if you are a beginner, it might get you to launch in situations you should not launch in. But you can use it if you wish. If it is so strong that you can't even push forward by using the crabbing technique then gently push on the A risers when walking forward. This method will help you cut through the wind like butter. Be very cautious when using this method.
Great vid, and nicely controlled. I learned a lot when I started gh a miniwing in stronger conditions. most miniwings are much more agile than normal pg, so you naturally have to work harder. but is good fun and good learning. also, consider a good airbag harness, for max back protection. Keep up the vids, they're really good! Cheers.
Cheers James, I do have one that I use to fly in but I don't like it for groundhandling, it's too bulky. But yeah for sure the smaller the wing the faster you have to react and that proves to be good training because when you go to the big ones everything seems to be in slow motion :)
Yes! There are maneuvers that are very successful in high wind: maneuvering your butt back to your car and finding something else to do. The problem with people who push the limits to the extreme is that they encourage the laws of aerodynamics to join with the law of gravity, to work against you. Nature will kick your butt if you don’t respect its power.
With you guys ground handling on the beach so much I assume you get sand into the cells. How do you go about cleaning the sand out? Back fly or do you physically hang the wing up and shake the sand out?
I'm not good enough to keep it flying upside down and then flip it right side up without filling it with sand again, so for me personally I just do it the hard way :) also sharknose on modern wings makes it a pain in the ass to get out even if you fly it upside down.
My tips for Cobra. Open/semi open wing at 90 deg to wind direction. I usually do this before putting harness on then runs lines between fingers harness to wing and back to make sure they are clear. Then put harness on , hold brakes as normal, stand at 45 degrees to wing and 45 degrees to wind. Tease outer A to downwind tip pulling across the body keeping tension in line. As the wing comes up keep your foot position and lean away from wing as it comes up don't let it pull you around if necessary use more A to keep it biting into wind. When the other tip has rolled off the ground then you need to pull opposite brake to level wing out and turn to face into wind. A bit like this although here I sat in harness a bit early and went back with a bit too much brake. ruclips.net/video/LhvBeR8tfxw/видео.html
Hey man, I been following your channel for a while. I can kill the wing in high wind but it's the surge which gets me off balance that I can keep it kiting, any tips for that?
Hey dude, thanks for following! Great to see FPV peeps interested in paragliding, I was there at the very beginning and want to go back to FPV soon :) About killing it in high wind, you mean it goes down and then pops back up? how are you killing it and what do you do after? Also what wing and location?
@@AndreBandarra1 I have a Gin Atlas X-alps. I can kite the wing fine but in high 3 Beaufort scale, I can't keep the canopy overhead even when I try to slow it's climb because it pulls me too fast and too violently (usually when it's 45° from the ground) so, I kill the wing with B and C risers. I prefer using B first and and then C as that disrupts the airflow almost in the middle of the chord and the glider's pull is greatly reduced.
@@BariFPV I'm not sure about Beaufort but up to 25-30 km/h shouldn't be too difficult, just a matter of technique and practise. Above 30 km/h it is quite tricky for anyone with a full-size wing. One way is to cobra launch instead of having the wing all laid out, or to rose it up and pull it up bunched up, so the middle comes up first. To all of these techniques you can add running towards the wing instead of standing your ground, that will take even more power out of it. You'll probably have to catch it with a big+fast brake input but remember that as soon as the wing is above you, you have to release the brakes pretty much completely, otherwise the wing will pull you, drop into the powerzone again, and the cycle will repeat. Coming up too fast, too much brake to catch it, back into power zone, comes up again, etc etc. Hope it helps
@@AndreBandarra1 I do everything RC, planes and helis have been doing for well over 28 years :) I fly F3A in planes and 3D helis. FPV is just new and I like the speed buzz it gives.
Great video!!, but you don't forghet say for training with a wind over 25/30 km/h is better to use a very little wing, like you've used on this video (what is?? 12 mq?). If you try to do this tips with a Normal paragliding wing surface (25 / 30 mq) I don't thing you will have a funy times!
I was going on 65 when I started to teach myself to ground handle a wing on Bodmin Moor, before going on to a school in the Summer to learn the flying bit. The wind gusts on the Moor can be a bit extreme (dead calm to being lofted and back), also turbulent and change direction rapidly, all this made it very hard for me to get a grip on launching and keeping the wing over my head which, was extremely frustrating. After a lot of time and effort, plus bouncing around on the ground, I gave up on the brakes and left them clipped to the risers. Instead I started using the A’s to launch and guide the wing up then, switch to the rears as I moved forward to take the energy out of the wing, and when wait shift started to come into play things became a lot easier. I figured that if I could ground handle a wing on the Moor in all that dirty air, then it would be a piece of cake when I went to the school near the coast, with all that clean stuff; and that proved to be the case. The reason I mentioned all that stuff above is that almost everyone I see at the club’s flying sights, and on videos, appears to be dead scared of doing anything with their wing without holding the brakes, but for me it’s the other way around; I see the brakes as being a danger in strong winds. Never letting go of the brakes is like ground handling with handcuffs on; letting go of the brakes opens the door to more options for controlling the wing on the ground and when bouncing along it, and also when being lofted. You see Gemma flip the wing the right way up the other day on the beach, something you didn’t know she could do but, instead of flipping the wing she could have launched it from that position. All you do is take the brake for the left side of the wing in your right hand; not left hand, then take the A’s at the maillons for that same left side in your left hand then, tug the brake to start the wing’s ascent for flipping it over and then start working the A’s to inflate that part of the wing when, you should move appropriately and weight shift to fly it back overhead; rather like a cobra; saves all that flipping over and building a wall stuff. I can’t be the only person on the planet that does this, suppose I should do a video but it’s too blinkin’ cold out there right now, and wet too. Give it a go Andre; if you haven’t already that is, but if you haven’t and do give it a go, and make a video of it, give us a credit please (Frank Hodges). Cheers, Frank H.
"""Never letting go of the brakes is like ground handling with handcuffs on""" - perfect illustration... rear risers = "safety" during high wind pgghe. tnx my friend(s).
Thanks a lot Frank for your thoughts and experience. I ended up going on similar path to you when I was learning. Usually groundhandled on my own, on a very rotory field with a really out of trim wing and that made me adjust more often. Agree with what you say about brakes and strong wind and yes once you get comfortable with your wing you can bring it up from almost any position. I've done what you described quite often and even Gemma too, just not on video yet :)
Thanks for the Highlighted Comment, a real honour; and I mean it! How about the big ears launch with a normal or tandem wing though? I have found it useful for launching in strong winds, once the wing is above your head the ears can be allowed to pop out then up and away you go. I have also had some fun just ground handling by maintaining to hold the outer A's from each side of the wing plus the right inner A's with my right hand, and operating the brakes above the pulleys with my left hand; one really must stay under the wing though, as if it tilts over too much the ear on the high side will pop out and then it's pretty much game over which, makes me wonder; could happen whilst flying with bigears? All the best - Frank H.@@AndreBandarra1
Hi guys... enjoying your adventure in Portugal and your videos - thx Would be interesting (to me anyway) to see you try out a couple of different launch styles... * one unusual~ example here - ruclips.net/video/Zbvh45_K26M/видео.html * cool video from Greg ruclips.net/video/EwlUDKl7E5w/видео.html * and adding to you `old wing` test... just launching using impulse from your hips, no A`s didn't see you try killing the wing with B`s?? Just a thought Steve
Cheers Steve! yeah really want to try the torrey pines one when i get a chance. The others may appear in a video very soon :) Killing it with the B's here ruclips.net/video/5xvuNm1va0o/видео.html
I too don't get why would I buy a Seed if can't fly it eventually. I mean if I want a small wing for ground handling why don't just buy a proper mini-wing which I can also eventually be able to fly one day?? 🤔
while the seed may not be a certified wing, I highly doubt that BGD would produce anything that wasnt actually air worthy. I know quite a few people who are flying the seed, myself included. The rumor mill is saying that its flyable, but BGD didnt want to get into that market or to go through a certification process. Some of the best money ive spent, was getting the seed. An incredibly valuable tool.
I will say this, the paraglider community is so awesome.
4:27 No evil brakes on high wind - rear risers is the key to "safety" - proven. Tnx for the demo my friend.
The; whole time you were kiting I was thinking... FEET FORWARD... and you explained just that. Well done bud! I learned to kite in high winds and it only took one face full of sand to teach me that lesson. :)
A couple of things I thought of watching this:
1) You put it in the GH challenge but maybe it's no good for the seed? You can kill it with As in high wind. For those that don't know: A sharp tug on the As causes a frontal collapse. You can then run toward the wing with a couple wraps on the brakes, or toward a wingtip to get it sideways to the wind, either will prevent reinflation.
2) In strong wind there's the "Torrey Pines Inflation". You can inflate the wing in big ears, and then allow the tips to inflate when you're ready. Great for using a full size or tandem wing in strong conditions. Saw it first here: ruclips.net/video/Zbvh45_K26M/видео.html
That's really sweet tutorial!! THX!
1) I don't think it pulling on the As would be a good idea as the wind was just so strong and any frontal collapses just reopened with massive amount of power. Bear in mind that with this much wind you almost can't keep it down no matter how much brake you pull so if it works it would be extremely hard and very violent for you and the wing.
2) Absolutely, I also saw that video recently and looks like a great technique and want to try it.
Thanks so much for taking the time to write a comment and share your experience!
@@AndreBandarra1 what about 1 A and the opposite C ?
Cs is the way to go.
Great tips and thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
Big help for me and my beginner training, thanks! Keep em coming!
In high wind beach soaring I find it useful to connect the glider in "reversed" position with leading edge down, like when overshooting in downwind landing... You will notice that the glider will be nicely "pinned" and this a safe situation. Now you can bring the glider up with a controlled brake input on one side. To bring it down again you can bring it in cobra an with a short brake input on the low side it will land with the leading edge down. Go off the brakes and you are safe again.
I am a beginner and just had a few flights now, still couldn’t handle GH very well, a lot to practice. Thank you for the tip and times.
Have fun and keep practising!
What a workout ! Thanks for all the information!!
Thanks very much for the tutorial! I had been thinking about this very subject just yesterday and wishing I could find a video like this. I have a 28m Dudek ReportAir and last year about this time I got launched in the air, slammed on the ground and then dragged about 50 yards all the while pulling more and more brakes thinking that would help.
I can "master" my full size wing using C's in stronger wind, and hardly use my brakes at all. It still wants to refill and launch/drag with massive amounts of C, so have to get one wingtip down and kill that sucker fast when ready to keep in on the ground. With the wing low in the power zone it really wants to pull. Like you said, make sure you've got plenty of room downwind to work with.
Both Andre and Gemma have great accents!!!
The furniture disclaimer...:)
Thanks for this series. Lots of good skills. The reason that we may "plank" ether forward or backward, is to weight the wing with as much body weight as possible while still being in contact with the ground to prevent us from swinging out of control. Weighting the wing make it fly forwards, less weight wing drops back into "power zone"= more pulling less lifting
I was taught, best case to kill a wing, once on the ground, is to pull one riser and the end of the wing all the way to you
Some guy told me to use a more performant wing for groundhandling than what I fly. So i bought an overused small En-D 3 liner wing even though I fly an En-B. First time I tried the En-D felt like I started over from scratch. But then, after a few hours I got the wing under control and my flying wing is way more predictable.
Thanks for this Andre....Like it was just made for me and my new seed..Exellent fun.
This is my main reason for following your channels, paragliders, for more than 10 YEARS. living at an altitude of 678 meters above sea level, looking at my place of origin at a height... while wishing I could fly above the earth's surface... because a paragliding parachute WILL NOT BE REACHABLE FOR ME......
More and more good info!..........Thank you for this channel!!
What’s your personal wind limit on your full-size wing for ground handling
Nice one Andre! Got some high wind training in myself the other day. Your beach audio quality was wizard level.
Cheers dude! I thought it would come out quite bad so I tried to talk really loud to compensate!
what miniwing are you using?
So what's your final thought on the B stall to kill the wing? The wing might wiggle around on the ground but it looked like you were in control.
I would like to see the cobra launch
How big is this wing?
Hi,
Excellent video!
What was the wind speed when doing this video?
About 40km/h
@@AndreBandarra1 thank you for the prompt response!
It seems like at some moments, your weight was lifted up by the wing…With 12 m2 wing and that wind speed, your weight (you + your clothe+ wing + harness) must have been around 205 pounds…does that sound approximately ok?
@@riconjos yeah I think that's about right
What wing and harness is this? Complete beginner here...
Yes that was fun, high wind ground handling with the Seed, I saw somewhere that when you get the down run as fast as poss 90 degrees so you are safe and then quickly gather up the lines before she Flys again? Thanks again.
Yeah I've used that technique with my full size wing and medium to high wind Peter but in this case, with very strong wind I found that i just doesn't quite work, it basically outruns you getting blown by the wind. it might work though to run to it and jump on one of the wingtips
It's good to jump from the paragliding mountain or not, we also need it from where we will get it.
some tips to push up in strong wind is
1. Instead of walking directly parallel with the wind walk at 45 degree angles to try to push forward.
2. I do not recommend doing this if you are a beginner, it might get you to launch in situations you should not launch in. But you can use it if you wish. If it is so strong that you can't even push forward by using the crabbing technique then gently push on the A risers when walking forward. This method will help you cut through the wind like butter. Be very cautious when using this method.
yep, very true! good advice with their own caviats!
Where are you from the country and how much money is this paraglading?
Great vid, and nicely controlled.
I learned a lot when I started gh a miniwing in stronger conditions. most miniwings are much more agile than normal pg, so you naturally have to work harder. but is good fun and good learning. also, consider a good airbag harness, for max back protection.
Keep up the vids, they're really good! Cheers.
Cheers James, I do have one that I use to fly in but I don't like it for groundhandling, it's too bulky. But yeah for sure the smaller the wing the faster you have to react and that proves to be good training because when you go to the big ones everything seems to be in slow motion :)
Please, tell me what size of wing were you using. Thanks.
12m2 projected
Yes! There are maneuvers that are very successful in high wind: maneuvering your butt back to your car and finding something else to do. The problem with people who push the limits to the extreme is that they encourage the laws of aerodynamics to join with the law of gravity, to work against you. Nature will kick your butt if you don’t respect its power.
With you guys ground handling on the beach so much I assume you get sand into the cells. How do you go about cleaning the sand out? Back fly or do you physically hang the wing up and shake the sand out?
I'm not good enough to keep it flying upside down and then flip it right side up without filling it with sand again, so for me personally I just do it the hard way :) also sharknose on modern wings makes it a pain in the ass to get out even if you fly it upside down.
My tips for Cobra. Open/semi open wing at 90 deg to wind direction. I usually do this before putting harness on then runs lines between fingers harness to wing and back to make sure they are clear. Then put harness on , hold brakes as normal, stand at 45 degrees to wing and 45 degrees to wind. Tease outer A to downwind tip pulling across the body keeping tension in line. As the wing comes up keep your foot position and lean away from wing as it comes up don't let it pull you around if necessary use more A to keep it biting into wind. When the other tip has rolled off the ground then you need to pull opposite brake to level wing out and turn to face into wind. A bit like this although here I sat in harness a bit early and went back with a bit too much brake. ruclips.net/video/LhvBeR8tfxw/видео.html
Great tutorial thank you :-)
thank you
what size wing was that?
14m2. www.flybgd.com/en/paragliders/paraglider-seed-kite-214-0-0.html
You might have already answered this, do you know what your wind speed was?😊
Hey man, I been following your channel for a while. I can kill the wing in high wind but it's the surge which gets me off balance that I can keep it kiting, any tips for that?
Check the German DHV channel. They've tons of tutorials as well.
Hey dude, thanks for following! Great to see FPV peeps interested in paragliding, I was there at the very beginning and want to go back to FPV soon :)
About killing it in high wind, you mean it goes down and then pops back up? how are you killing it and what do you do after? Also what wing and location?
@@AndreBandarra1 I have a Gin Atlas X-alps. I can kite the wing fine but in high 3 Beaufort scale, I can't keep the canopy overhead even when I try to slow it's climb because it pulls me too fast and too violently (usually when it's 45° from the ground) so, I kill the wing with B and C risers. I prefer using B first and and then C as that disrupts the airflow almost in the middle of the chord and the glider's pull is greatly reduced.
@@BariFPV I'm not sure about Beaufort but up to 25-30 km/h shouldn't be too difficult, just a matter of technique and practise. Above 30 km/h it is quite tricky for anyone with a full-size wing. One way is to cobra launch instead of having the wing all laid out, or to rose it up and pull it up bunched up, so the middle comes up first. To all of these techniques you can add running towards the wing instead of standing your ground, that will take even more power out of it. You'll probably have to catch it with a big+fast brake input but remember that as soon as the wing is above you, you have to release the brakes pretty much completely, otherwise the wing will pull you, drop into the powerzone again, and the cycle will repeat. Coming up too fast, too much brake to catch it, back into power zone, comes up again, etc etc. Hope it helps
@@AndreBandarra1 I do everything RC, planes and helis have been doing for well over 28 years :) I fly F3A in planes and 3D helis. FPV is just new and I like the speed buzz it gives.
great one ... :)))
Great video!!, but you don't forghet say for training with a wind over 25/30 km/h is better to use a very little wing, like you've used on this video (what is?? 12 mq?). If you try to do this tips with a Normal paragliding wing surface (25 / 30 mq) I don't thing you will have a funy times!
Hey, I really like you. I would like to learn if you add Arabic to the translation
I was going on 65 when I started to teach myself to ground handle a wing on Bodmin Moor, before going on to a school in the Summer to learn the flying bit.
The wind gusts on the Moor can be a bit extreme (dead calm to being lofted and back), also turbulent and change direction rapidly, all this made it very hard for me to get a grip on launching and keeping the wing over my head which, was extremely frustrating.
After a lot of time and effort, plus bouncing around on the ground, I gave up on the brakes and left them clipped to the risers. Instead I started using the A’s to launch and guide the wing up then, switch to the rears as I moved forward to take the energy out of the wing, and when wait shift started to come into play things became a lot easier. I figured that if I could ground handle a wing on the Moor in all that dirty air, then it would be a piece of cake when I went to the school near the coast, with all that clean stuff; and that proved to be the case.
The reason I mentioned all that stuff above is that almost everyone I see at the club’s flying sights, and on videos, appears to be dead scared of doing anything with their wing without holding the brakes, but for me it’s the other way around; I see the brakes as being a danger in strong winds. Never letting go of the brakes is like ground handling with handcuffs on; letting go of the brakes opens the door to more options for controlling the wing on the ground and when bouncing along it, and also when being lofted.
You see Gemma flip the wing the right way up the other day on the beach, something you didn’t know she could do but, instead of flipping the wing she could have launched it from that position. All you do is take the brake for the left side of the wing in your right hand; not left hand, then take the A’s at the maillons for that same left side in your left hand then, tug the brake to start the wing’s ascent for flipping it over and then start working the A’s to inflate that part of the wing when, you should move appropriately and weight shift to fly it back overhead; rather like a cobra; saves all that flipping over and building a wall stuff. I can’t be the only person on the planet that does this, suppose I should do a video but it’s too blinkin’ cold out there right now, and wet too. Give it a go Andre; if you haven’t already that is, but if you haven’t and do give it a go, and make a video of it, give us a credit please (Frank Hodges).
Cheers, Frank H.
"""Never letting go of the brakes is like ground handling with handcuffs on""" - perfect illustration... rear risers = "safety" during high wind pgghe. tnx my friend(s).
Thanks a lot Frank for your thoughts and experience. I ended up going on similar path to you when I was learning. Usually groundhandled on my own, on a very rotory field with a really out of trim wing and that made me adjust more often. Agree with what you say about brakes and strong wind and yes once you get comfortable with your wing you can bring it up from almost any position. I've done what you described quite often and even Gemma too, just not on video yet :)
Thanks for the Highlighted Comment, a real honour; and I mean it!
How about the big ears launch with a normal or tandem wing though? I have found it useful for launching in strong winds, once the wing is above your head the ears can be allowed to pop out then up and away you go. I have also had some fun just ground handling by maintaining to hold the outer A's from each side of the wing plus the right inner A's with my right hand, and operating the brakes above the pulleys with my left hand; one really must stay under the wing though, as if it tilts over too much the ear on the high side will pop out and then it's pretty much game over which, makes me wonder; could happen whilst flying with bigears?
All the best - Frank H.@@AndreBandarra1
Nice guy and beatify women
Hi guys... enjoying your adventure in Portugal and your videos - thx
Would be interesting (to me anyway) to see you try out a couple of different launch styles...
* one unusual~ example here - ruclips.net/video/Zbvh45_K26M/видео.html
* cool video from Greg ruclips.net/video/EwlUDKl7E5w/видео.html
* and adding to you `old wing` test... just launching using impulse from your hips, no A`s
didn't see you try killing the wing with B`s?? Just a thought
Steve
Cheers Steve! yeah really want to try the torrey pines one when i get a chance. The others may appear in a video very soon :) Killing it with the B's here ruclips.net/video/5xvuNm1va0o/видео.html
I'm FIRST!)
Dude, just grow up.
I too don't get why would I buy a Seed if can't fly it eventually. I mean if I want a small wing for ground handling why don't just buy a proper mini-wing which I can also eventually be able to fly one day?? 🤔
Because they are about double the price. But yeah good point
while the seed may not be a certified wing, I highly doubt that BGD would produce anything that wasnt actually air worthy. I know quite a few people who are flying the seed, myself included. The rumor mill is saying that its flyable, but BGD didnt want to get into that market or to go through a certification process. Some of the best money ive spent, was getting the seed. An incredibly valuable tool.
I had to stop sharing already. Para people get mad when you tell them that high winds can be mastered.