Expensive MISTAKE? Limping Jeep RUBICON - Part 2 (P0390, P0394 Repairs)
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- Опубликовано: 16 ноя 2023
- Customer authorized all REPAIRS that I recommended for his 2017 Jeep Rubicon in Part 1.
Will a new OEM Bank 2 Intake Camshaft and VVT Phaser get rid of the pesky P0394 code??
I had a bad feeling about this...
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Enjoy!
Ivan 
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I had a 2014 Rubicon with exactly the same codes being thrown and go into limp mode. It was only able to be duplicated while going up a 1-2 percent grade and changing the throttle very slightly. If it was a steeper hill that required more throttle to get up, it would not throw the code. After all the parts changers tried this and that, I took it to a jeep dealership in Las Vegas that had a diagnostician of your caliber. I found this very hard to believe because it just didn't make sense to me. He told me that a oil galley plug had fallen out and was allowing the flow of oil to the cam shafts on that bank to be delayed. I absolutely did not believe him and was expecting to go pick up the jeep and be heading home and find the problem reoccurred once again, as it had done 5 times prior. After a week of no code, no problems, I drove the jeep back to the dealership, asked to see the mechanic that was responsible for the work done on my jeep. Once I confirmed that he was the one, I shook his hand, apologized to him for the thoughts I had regards the repairs and handed him a $100 tip for knowing what he was doing where most people just was to PUT IN A NEW ENGINE!!!
The oil galley plug was inside the front cover and the oil was going back into the pan. No leaks, completely hidden.
With all due respect, these 3.6's have such a range of issues it's hard to diagnose them sometimes. Especially if someone's been in there a few times
Congrats, you called it!
Your clue was in the 10miles before the issue starts and the rattle as it warms up , oil viscosity in the phaser or tensioner change with heat
I’m wondering if an oil change with factory spec weight would “fix” it.
That engine on startup is screaming "oil can!" just like the Tinman in The Wizard of Oz. I don't know the owner but with all the other mods done I wouldn't be shocked if some non OEM recommended, but JEEP forum recommended oil is in that engine.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it is refreshing to see you make a mistake every once and a while. GREAT VIDEO!
He really is actually human.. we have proof now
To hold the tensioner back you just put the other end of your bicycle spoke down in the other little hole in the top of the tensioner and it locks it back in place
So simple once you know
@@mikefoehr235 🔧✌️🔧
You know that the problem is complicated when Ivan is throwing the parts cannon.
a multi-part cannon at that!
Ivan, just a thought. There are 2 oil galley plugs behind the timing chain that have a tendency to work loose and leak. This causes a lose of oil pressure to the phaser.
We will explore this in the conclusion video 👍
Another excellent video, even though it is not fixed, you got me on the edge of my seat waiting for part three🔧😅🔧
Wow! Never seen you this unsure of a diagnosis. You didn't even tell us to "place your bets"!
I knew there was something fishy about it being a "circuit" code. We're not getting the whole story. He said they had to rewire those main plugs on the computer; I'd probably start there and do a quick check of every color wire with the schematic and just look for something to be out of place. These phasers are always a head scratcher. Plus that B1s1 "slow response" code that you just got last minute. Can't wait for the next episode ;)
I thought he'd start there, but that nugget of info seemed to get lost. He is probed into the wires at the computer, but stuff and such. I'm too ignorant for a solution.
A major rewire should ring alarm ⏰ bells straight away. Those connections need to be checked again to eliminate human error. Tricky problem that eats up time.
@@TreyCook21I had to give you a thumbs up for your last sentence, lol, I love it! 😅👍🏼
Hmmm, that B1S1 "slow response" code smells like crossed sensor wires. I had such a "slow response" with my 2011 Veracruz O2 sensors. Only when I actually interchanged them did the code went away. So, definitely a laid wiring vs schematic wiring would be VERY HIGH on my to do list!
I am a tech at a dealer and I have a little bit of experience with the 3.6, in fact that engine paid my house off. A couple of things I would like to suggest. 1st, those 2 13 mm bolts in the front of the head, the ones that plug the oil galleys, I didn't see you check those. If they loosen up, they leak oil pressure and those dtcs can set. They are almost always finger tight or they can even fall out.
The other thing, I know you checked the oil control valve by pressing it in and it looked ok. They can stick intermittently. Usually I replace that with the phaser.
Just had a charger come in with that bolt backed out and rubbing the phaser. I was shocked that all of them were loose.
What’s the purpose of these oil galley plugs? How and why do they loosen up and what’s the torque spec? I hear of them coming loose all the time- this is crazy!
@YOUZTUBE2000 their only purpose is to plug a hole. Tourqe spec is 12lbs and no threadlock is used. That's why they come loose. I tourqe them to 40lbs and put loctite on them.
@@josephdavis4201 red or blue? Still makes no kind of sense! Thank you for your response- This has to be the biggest reason for the infamous “3.6 roller rocker tick”
@@YOUZTUBE2000 red. And no. The rocker failure is a whole other nightmare on these engines. They are absolute crap.
Tough luck, Ivan! I was not really convinced that would solve the problem - that variable timing window seems to come from somewhere else (chain, tensioner, crankshaft sprocket?) and you may have to disassemble more, to get to the culprit. Stay strong! Part 3 will be a killer :-)
cam /crank relearn failure is what I would track down,, what can cause it to fail a relearn? is it a replacement computer that isnt calibrated to the crank sensor parameters?
@@randy1ization That's also a good point, but a varying width pulse might confuse the computer.
it looks like the phasers are doing thier thing, and everything is happy, until the phasers are tasked to go full phase, and one of them cannot do it, then the code.. it was logical to replace the phaser . now I would be leaning toward a restriction in the oil circuit to the phaser. it is losing pressure somewhere..@@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT
@@randy1ization That's also a possibility, but I think Ivan checked oil pressure.
BINGO I WAS RIGHT FOR ONCE.. LOL
This is the exact reason i went with flipping instead of customer vehicles...My worst nightmare. Good luck man. Ive learned so much from you so please keep at it. Win some lose some
This jeep owner likes getting ducked! Nice work Ivan, I love how you do your videos and show everything even when not repaired as hoped. Looking forward to the next video on this beast. 🇺🇸
the cam tensioner holding tools are $15 on amazon blew my mind how cheap they were
That is the worst possible feeling when that happens. I feel your pain!
I look forward to Ivan's videos so this Jeep is the gift that keeps on giving! 😂
Bummer! Oh, man... That's heartbreaking. That can really take a toll on you emotionally after a lengthy repair effort. Especially, if you're tired. It makes for a great cliffhanger, though.
I have been in a similar situation where I have effected a repair only to find out it still did not solve the problem the only thing to do is take a break (in my case a day) & try again with more information.Cheers.
That start up rattle, then the phase issue… you seemed uneasy about replacing the cam and all. I just got the feeling its something else. My gut tells me that start up issue and maybe some kind of oil pressure issue.. the start up and the time related to the issue coming back are some how tied together..
I feel your pain and thoughts why I get myself in these situations. I use to do what your doing for decades and had vehicles from other shops that couldn't be fixed and last one my very last was a Ford truck that had been to dealers, Ford specialist and had not been driven in 3 years would not move. Long story short the fix was simple to me melted wiring harness the other bigger issues were all the used transmissions, transfer cases, computers that I had to sort through after to then fix that problem created. I no longer do this kind of work it took to much money from my family and tons of my time I could not feel I could bill for. I try to now making my living on less tool demanding repairs that takes several jobs to break even on only deal with most common vehicles in my area and limited my time to vehicles that have not been blown up with aftermarket cannons. I really feel your pain and believe if we could get into software and just twick it on wear items or if they would build it in software as chain stretch and other wearable items till engine replacement it would solve a ton of cost and headaches with so many additional items added to the power train.
I missed a bunch of your videos.
I am do impressed with your search for knowledge.
Keep it going!!!
Wont know till part 3, but im suspecting a oil supply issue due to the fact of the rattling exhaust on start up when the cams are being phased and for the fact after the engine is heat soaked the problem arises. To me the rattling is key and suspect, That deff not normal on the 3.6's.
We’ve all struggled on jobs that defied our attempts at fixing. I think you still have a 99% right success record ‼️I guess we found out you’re human too. Even surgeons with CT and MRIs run into problems so don’t get discouraged. Del
I feel like my favorite show just left me on a cliffhanger ending 😂 awesome job man, cant wait for part 3
Every technician in the country has loaded up the parts canon at one point in there lives. It is all part of the learning process. Especially if you have worked on a Chrysler or a GMC. I still say to Flush that Toilet.
I would love to have one of these, but every time I get ready to buy something, you always have one in your shop that has issues. I just can't come to the Furnace every time I need service. GREAT VIDEO!
Just a thought. Since you are getting various cam related codes according to prodemand one thing some mechanics have replaced for some of these codes is the Oil Filter Adaptor. Apparently it is an assembly that contains the oil cooler and oil pressure control solenoid. Just something to keep in back of your head.
I respect your courage on that follow through. Your customers are lucky to have such a high level of devotion placed on resolving their dilemmas. Good luck with it man!
Well, you are human after all, but you're still the best.
Can't wait to see part three.
Hey Ivan, we ALL know you will get to the root of the trouble and fix this piece of c&*p. Many thanks for the entertainment we love from you. From UK.
Wow! I'm wondering about the engine oil as that start-up noise concerns me. Too thick oil would make that response time "slow", especially when cold!
After messing with Chrysler products, I find it easier to unscrew the radiator cap and drive a Toyota underneath it.
Easier said than done. Sometimes you just have to eat the turd sandwich and smile. I find Stalantis products fairly straightforward to work on. Only thing I hate with them is the programming you have to pay for/agree to. There are multi layers of payment/steps involved in order to program them. I refuse to spend the $ and time to learn that.
Except Chrysler radiator cap won't fit a Toyota 😂😂😂
Yeah, I still think it is a problem with the sensor mounting somehow, or the position of the cam being too far from the sensor. What about measuring the exact distance between sensor and magnet wheel with calipers and comparing to the other side? Since it is acting exactly like the sensor is too far from the wheel, seems good to be extra extra sure. Besides, the code on bank 1 means it is probably a good idea to examine that side as well.
Awesome video, Great troubleshooting skills, Ivan . You're a young Bernie Thompson . I'm looking forward to seeing the fix.
Simple solution. Replace the engine. Not with just any engine, put in a 1963 Rambler/Nash 6-cylinder engine, 3.2 liter/ 196 cubic inch, 138 hp -- Bulletproof, all it needs is a little oil and water. Great fuel economy. AMC/Jeep would later put this engine in many Jeeps for decades. AMC the engine maker would go on to make this engine more economical for them to produce - in the process of "improving" it they introduced loads of new problems their original design never had. The 1963 engine did have an engine noise problem - drivers, with all of the windows down, couldn't hear the engine running - At stoplights drivers ruined many starters - by trying to restart already running engines.
Well, let's see the last one, but this shows one of the problems with society. We're afraid to show our mistakes (if this ends up being a mis-diagnosis) but they are as useful if not more than the times when we get it right. The same happens with scientific papers, but we'll learn more if we shown the problems and set backs. Thank you.
Techs on the internet claim to go for a 100% diagnostic. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as 100%. You diagnose it, try a solution and confirm the solution. If it doesn't work, lick your wounds and figure it out. That is much different over a parts goober winging parts onto a vehicle based on identifix or similar methods.
@@mph5896 There is very often a 100% correct diagnosis but just not 100% of the time. If you tell someone their ECU is bad you CAN and SHOULD be 100% certain before you replace. Now... a 100% accurate diagnosis isn't very often likely if you don't the proper diagnostics tools and have the knowledge to properly use them.
@@watchdogu.s.a.8973 Yes and no. I diagnosed a Trailblazer for no fog lights to be a faulty body control module as it would not send signal out when commanded. Replaced and programmed it and still did not work. Went through diagnosis again and confirmed that was the issue. Called GM tech line and found when truck was imported to Canada and had daytime running light programming added to it the fog lamp part of the calibration data got missed and wasn't there. So in that case i was correct but the module itself wasn't faulty, calibrations were missing. In that case it was still under GM warranty so didnt cost anyone but GM money and me due to going through diag again thinking i missed something.
@@jeffco908 You diagnosing something that had never worked, though. You had every right and reason to think it SHOULD have worked. With no output from the BCM your diagnosis would have been correct.
It is unfortunate that way too many "techs" these days don't have a clue to even go to the source.
I've been repairing my things since around age 14... 50+ years ago. I have only been diagnosing automotive systems in-depth for a little over year. My procedure hasn't changed but I did learn early on last year the importance of a good oscilloscope and how to use it.
I LOVE the challenge!
I think the Phaser has a small friction plate inside that wears out, similar to a clutch plate. Oil pressure can also cause an issue with the timing.
Great point about the oil pressure, I was thinking it was maybe dropping too low once the oil was hot and thinned out from a sustained load. If the oil pressure drops too low, the ECU will lose control of the cam phasers. If I was in his shoes, I'd definitely verify that the oil pressure is within spec while this issue is occurring.
Great troubleshooting, outstanding and impressive work, after seeing those headache's remand me my years at Cummins engines company, but am I glad to have my 86 Toyota pick up, free of that highly sophisticated technology, easy to troubleshoot, for sure it will outlast me and I will pass it on to my kids, giving them a highly reliable way of transportation because right now it is on outstanding condition, trouble free guarantee, Toyota made those to outlast the units owners, TOYOTA MANUFACTURING COMPANY, my most expressive thanks for that 86 Toyota pick up single axle automatic transmission, power steering, air conditioner, power brakes, I don't think that I will ever have a better piece of equipment better than that, for the rest of my life, and I was born and raised in the gasoline and diesel field, blessings to you and everyone that one way or another made it possible to bring it to us, most kind for your video, from the endless summer paradise Puerto Rico Jesus Torres.
It's really tough to say what the correct angle should be at idle without knowing what it's supposed to be. I would assume that both cams should be at or very near 0 degrees at idle. But this example is showing a near 5-degree discrepancy still. And then that slow response from another cam is very worrying. It seems to me that we may have a handful of little issues all piling into one big headache. These setbacks happen to the best of us Ivan. Just keep your chin up and buckle down. I'm sure you will figure it out. I can't wait to see what's next in part 3. Great content my boy.
I suspect a problem with low oil pressure in the phaser circuit. Since the phasers are activated by oil pressure, low oil pressure in the circuit may allow only partial operation. When the oil is cold, the pressure is relatively high, but when the engine warms after a few miles the oil thins out and pressure drops to a point where it triggers the code. Given the cam is still 5 degrees out despite being brand new, If possible, check the oil galleries feeding the phaser for blockage. My two cents...
I would try going up a few grades in oil. I’d try a 5w-40 or even a 20w-50 and see if the problem goes away. I’m willing to bet it’s oil pressure related too. 5W-20 should be fine, but if there’s insufficient oil pressure/flow, a heavy grade should make up for it if the pump isn’t flowing properly.
I thought he had monitored the VVT oil pressure? (approx 50 lb) But maybe not when it was in failed mode?@@upload15613
Love a good cliffhanger 😎 cant wait for part 3!! Im wondering if it’s something to do with the oil thats in it. Would be a quick and cheap thing to rule out
That was a tough one for sure...I would maybe check to see if there are any updates in the software for the pcm and bcm and maybe try that....Good luck Ivan I really enjoy watching your videos!
This stuff would absolutely drive me nuts!!
Perhaps the Bank 1 VVT Phaser is also out of spec range too also on bank one has a slow response maybe it cause the whole issue in the first place have done another cam re-lean.
Have you tried uninstalling all those ducks?
Exactly! Remove the last duck installed before problem started.
Thanks Ivan! You may have gotten a fancy combo platter of issues. I'm sure the fix will be something crazy!
Ive learned so much from you so please keep at it.
You win some, and you lose some. You win far more than you lose. On a positive note, it's a learning process for you, as well as your many subscribers. My money is still on you getting to the bottom of what's wrong. 🙏
Excellent but you should reset memory . Scrub memory and then do cam crank relearn . I think you fixed it 👊🏻
No! I demand answers! ;) great video as always, thanks Ivan!
Cant wait to see if you sort this and what the problem is
Man, I hope you touched those two bolts behind the phaser with your 10mm wrench just to make sure they're tight. I'm just kind of OCD about it since I find so many loose.
Frustrating Mopar for sure.
Been dealing with almost the same issue have changed everything and the thing just can’t get right sometimes you just need a miracle.
Great job and effort as always.
It will be fixed.
My thoughts are, with the slow bank 1 sensor... Possibly the problem is the other bank, not the one that keeps throwing code. Which bank does the comp start with for reference? Or is it comparatively done by both, balance...
Oil control solenoid on the bank that has slow response we know oil pressure makes it go if its slow its oil related. The OSC is basically the phaser bolt I believe on these trucks. Do the waveforms line up when you unplug the VVT and do they let them mechanically lock out ? Cam correlation codes can get wild and throw erroneous codes the ECUS for these have many calibration updates to try and solve mis-diagnosis but I doubt they are ever very good at pinpointing these types of codes. I'm nail-biting over here waiting for the finale! This is a hard one but I've got total faith! Cheers Ivan!
Thanks Ivan!
Those mystery troubles are annoying. Lucky they do not happen often.
Good lessons sometimes come with a price, just the way it goes. I won’t offer My recommendation on this one as I don’t think You would like it, and I know for sure the owner wouldn’t. Great stuff as always. 👍👍🇺🇸
Thank you for walking down the analysis process. It's hard to discriminate each contributor of this cam timing signature.
As an electrical engineer I would expect the cam sensor signal has only one critical edge (rising or falling) but not both. It appears that the rising edges of both the Intake and exhaust sensors of bank 2 have a secondary oscillation in sync to the actual cam shaft position. If this is true, I'm thinking this oscillation is load dependent (cam lobe pressure) and would then relate to the driven path: phaser's oil pressure path or timing chain.
Dang…have to wait for part 3 !
I would suspect its a mechanical issue. I had a Ford F150 Ecoboost with identical codes a few months ago. They fired the parts cannon at it. I would almost suspect an issue with the timing chains. The problem with the F150 were the timing chains. Once I replaced the timing chains on the F150 with new Ford chains, the problem was corrected.
You should check the lobes with a micrometer, and the shaft for straightness and compare, before installing
Those 3.6 pentastar engines are a nightmare.
I have been dealing with these two codes for over a year and I bought it this way from dealership but they would not fix it. Thank you. I will never ever buy another Jeep again. It's never ending with the b******* electrical.
Penstar 3.6 , big problems !!
Give Em hell Ivan you'll figure this one out 👍
It will be a weird but exciting video with much knowledge and learning to come
Great work Ivan. I don't know the end result, but it would stink if it was the bank 1 CAM sensor causing the issue. Always informative and helpful.
I believe he tried the CAMs swap over trick in the first video(before this one)!
IDK, that seemed sus as soon as the cam-crank relearn gave a sensor 1 code.
Insane. I don’t like the rattle, but otherwise what gives? Awesome case study ❤
Fiat had it's fingers in it. What do you expect?
We seeing the scope duration before the connector repair at the computer so my guess is back at the source. Cam/reluctor/phaser should be ruled out so my money is on sensor position! This is a good one!
I’m still thinking stretched timing chain
That was my theory and/or weak tenssioner
Something tells me this is not a stretched timing chain because if that were the case then the issue would not have changed after replacing the VVT Phaser and Cam it should have stay the same.
@@SHSPVR I hope I never have this problem with my 5.7 V8. I think Toyota has few issues with chains and camshafts/phasers
I love the way you work, Ivan. You try your best and it shows. Recharge and go at it igen. Sorry I can't give any tips, I am out of your league on that engine type...
To me the chatter in the phasers at startup is a red flag... they shouldn't do that....
You learn your most valuable lessons when you make a mistake. What sets you apart is you turned it into a lesson that others can learn from.
Oh noooooo!!!!!! You’ll have that on them big jobs
You learn much more from Failure than success .
timing chains , guides and tensioners !!!! i would pull the cover at this point , pull valve covers and intake , and set up timing marks , and lock engine , with correct set up tools , and verify timing , and look for chain stretch , . or find another jeep similar and look at data with scanner and see what cam degrees are i betting that you will find a chain stretch / timing issue !!!
I would like to see you and Bernie T do a case study on this one.
Bernie would show up with his degausser and demagnetize all the cams! 🤓😄
Strange how the Service data said 8 rev's of the crank , with a difference between the 2 banks would set the code , but it will drive 7-10 miles till the code will set , your up to 10 degrees difference between the two , WOW , "it's a Jeep thing ?"
The code setting description and criteria is complete garbage haha
Hey Ivan , loss of oil pressure in the head can happen and cause timing codes, right behind the two phasers on the head, there are either 2 or 3 , 13mm bolts if the come loose, then timing issues will occur . Tightening the bolts is tricky.
why is tricky?the position of the bolt?
I think calling this a "Cliff Hanger" would be an appropriate phun....
You got this Ivan! Step back, take a break. Fresh attack for tomorrow.
Great job
"Auto Doktoren" from Cologne, Germany had a video where there were 2 different position sensors varieties with different part numbers depending on the build date of the car. Somebody had replaced the sensor with the wrong one, so the gap did not match. Putting the proper sensor in fixed the problem, but it was difficult to diagnose.
No 😢
i feel you ivan, it's the worst technical part of this profession
Excited for p3 though 😅
BTW replacing the phaser is what I'd have recommended as well, so I'm really curious what is causing this anomaly
Some diagnosis are much, much harder than others and I think people need to charge accordingly. It shouldn't be a flat rate across the board for all diagnosis. This problem couldn't be diagnosed by 99% of techs.
I couldn’t be happier I got rid of my pentastar powered wrangler. These thing seem to follow in typical Chrysler reliability
If that engine is anything like the GM 3.6 litre V6 engine they were known to flog out the "keyway" in the timing chain sprocket on the camshaft & give the same sort of codes in the Holden Commodores in Australia.
It not much of a Keyway in that engine,they have a dowel pin in the crankshaft which is supposed to stop the sprocket from spinning on the crankshaft.
The problem is that there's mot much "meat" in the sprocket meaning that the keyway wears out therefore causing the codes to show up,I know a bloke whose mechanic told him that he old 3.8 litre Buick L36 V6 engine was better than the 3.6 litre Engine like that because they didn't have any timing chain issues in the L36 engine like the 3.6 litre V,6 engine has !
Great vids , so much information here. Just a thought.....Would stretch in the timing chain be a possibility?
Experience diagnosis master mui bueno amigo
I have seen slow response codes set erroneously when using scan tool for various cam/crank functions. Just recently running the “phaser cleaning” routine on the OEM scan tool on a known good vehicle. Set a slow response code for one for the cams not sure which.
Awesome videos
I curse aloud once you said the engine light popped on
Did you check the oil pressure? Good pressure is needed to operate the phasers. As the oil warms the oil gets thinner and the pressure goes down.
Could it be an oil flow problem in the feed to the phasers, causing erratic operation and the slow response, such as a partial blockage in an oilway?
Or a phaser that's passing too much oil and reducing the flow available to the others?
Or an oil galley plug which came loose?
But won't that affect the exhaust ? Same oil feed on the same bank
Dirty oil or wrong viscosity oil were potential causes of these symptoms according to my research
I also think it is some debris in the passageway to the phasers.
or the wrong weight of oil
The cam phases bolts can leak oil and cause timing issues on the 3.6. I have seen it many times.
To Ivan. You are one heck of an amazing mechanic. You took on a can of worms and snakes to try to repair. Ill take your "mis diagnosis" any day. You have at the very least real scope data to back up your claim. IMO, all the mods on that Jeep and the level of past work done, the owner should dump that vehical fast, and be done with it.
I had a similar problem with a Hyundai. Pulled the vvt solenoid and it was full of sparkles. Wound up replacing the engine
Ivan did show sparkies on the cam tone ring.I bet that engine has sparkles all through it including the cam phasers.
@@davidfleishman2275ouch, time to do an oil change and oil filter inspection to see if more sparkles are presented 😢 hopefully in part 3
maybe the lady belived in the 12 k oil change interval
I'm not surprised. You didn't seem confident in the diagnosis. I'm still convinced it's a sensor air gap issue. With a short pulse I would swap sensors, which you did and then measure the air gap.