Weirdest Subaru in the WORLD? (Part 2 - BARELY Runs with Alternator Connected??)
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- This Subaru is getting REALLY FUN! :)
It seems to run fine at 12V, but as soon as system voltage gets to 14V, the ignition coils draw LESS CURRENT, and it starts losing spark?!
CRAZY STUFF!!
What is the root cause of this problem?
My MIND is BLOWN...
IVAN'S PICO WAVEFORMS:
drive.google.c...
TOPDON TORNADO 90000, 90A Smart Charger:
www.amazon.com...
OTC 3820-06 Low Amp Probe:
www.amazon.com...
Enjoy!
Ivan
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I wanna hear you call Keith and he says "Yeah, I've seen that before"! 😁
Not this time 😂
😂😂😂
never know on the staten island express
@@NewLevelAuto this was a true bizarre Staten Island car 😆
@@NewLevelAuto I wondered what your reply to that was going to be.....
I really wish that I had a local diagnostic technician in my area that is as competent as you are!
Darn it, Ivan. That is not something i expected, i was expecting some sort of ground issue or green crusties. Fantastic effort and scope for the win again. If it was possible i would give more thumbs up. Thank you.
Classic case of trying to save money now will cost you twice as much later
Cheap price pay twice! In the case it was probably more like 20 times.
There is a you tube channel called wrenching with kenny. He had a ford engine that he was talking about that kept running really rich. As I recall he determined leaky injectors. They replaced them from a donor engine that they had in the shop. Still ran the same. The engine had aftermarket coils on it. After they replaced them, it fixed the problem. As I recall, he did not quite understand why. I believe the aftermarket coils may have been inducing a voltage in the injectors causing them to open up out of time.
Probably had just really weak spark lol
Yes, Kenny hates cheap aftermarket parts, as does Ivan.
A Dealership would have said, "NEEDS A NEW ENGINE"! Good Job!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or needs rear wheel bearings too so just trade it in for nothing. They might have thrown parts at it and got lucky.
That's right, we don't have time to fix hard problems. We have lots of wallet flushes to do.
That is nuts!! I don't even have words!
I'm waiting on the Amazon Basics Short Block assemblies to become a thing... ;)
Awesome job Ivan! Duplicating the problem by bumping up the voltage and zeroing in on the coils was brilliant. You'd think that the guy who replaced all 4 coils would've noticed a slight change in the idle... :-)
Eager for the conclusion!
Maybe the coils were good for a couple of months or something, because otherwise that is unfathomable stupidity.
I never saw this before. I give you a lot of credit for proving it. I have learned as cars get more electronic loaded the less you can rely on "economy "parts.Thanks
I remember that RAM that would cut off at high rpm due to a bad coil! So, coils evidently can cause really weird problems.
Great diagnosis. I try and buy OEM parts for my Sequoia. The rear side door actuator failed. Replaced it. Replaced it again. The first was an eBay special. Next one, Amazon. Each one lasted less than a year. In the end, I bought an OEM actuator and two years later, still working. I guess the old saying, You get what you pay for has some truth.
Well done to Ivan and the PicoScope .
Topdon is doing some great things in the automotive industry
Well, this time I had no idea what you were telling us in your diagnosis, Ivan. Nevertheless, you seemed to jump to the right conclusion, which is one of your basic tenets: "Always use OEM parts in critical system controls." Great job Ivan, can't argue with the results. 🙂👍
I've found NGK and Denso to be OEM equivalents when it comes to coils for many Japanese vehicles such as Subaru, Toyota, Suzuki, etc. Usually around half the price of the actual car manufacturer branded OEM coils and actually, many times the car brand OEM coils are actually made by NGK and/or Denso anyhow lol.
still have to watch out where you buy them... i got burned on counterfeit NGK plugs on eBay before the internet boom. I bought same NGK plugs on a brick and mortar store Autozone and just returned the bad/fake ones
Yup ..
Got to check the aftermarket
Junk that's been parts cannoned...
Wow.. you nailed it again !
garage owners kid say, car isn't worth the price of 4 coils LOL
reminds me of a 2.5 4cyl gm engine back in the early 90s it had brand new ac delco plugs in it. on idle it would run great under load it ran like crap. I tried everything that could cause this. i removed the plugs and they looked fine. after all efforts I replaced the plugs and it was fixed!!
Anyone hear that swoosh sound about halfway through? It was just this case flying over my head. Amazing! Great stuff as always Ivan. 👍👍🇺🇸
Pretty sure I heard that near the start. 😂
The ECM is probably doing voltage compensated dwell to make sure the spark is consistent at various system voltages. So that might be OK. But I guess the coils are junk.
I can't believe whoever fitted the coils, didn't question why it was running like junk after they'd worked on it.
Nice fix Ivan.
I was waiting with baited breath for this insanity!!!
For real
@joevaagen6170 back away from the bait jar. The worms go on the hook, not in your mouth.😊
@@timkaldahl
He's clearly a master...
No "i" in that "bated". Unless you have been eating worms.
Ivan's amazing technician
It's amazing how you still retain your patience after all of the work you've done.
If AM parts are found to be defective, a notice should go out to every seller telling them to dump the junk. That's an ideal scernio unknow in the real world.
On a side note, AM junk doesn't exist only in the automotive world. I ran into some while fixing a leaky faucet. The parts I bought were advertised for that brand of faucet, but they weren't. I was finally able to find parts from that brand's company. Then repairs became a piece of cake.
I had a Delta faucet I bought a new aerator for recently. It was an aftermarket aerator that wouldn't let hardly any water come through despite being a 2.2 gpm replacement. I had to order a new one from Delta. The AM piece costs $5.00. The OEM one costs $15.00; but it puts out 2.2 gpm.
@lvsqcsl Knockoffs don't hold a candle to OEM parts. Even though OEM parts cost more, they work as they're designed to work.
you would think legit parts companies would post a list at least. guess we lose when lawyers win.
@@jamiepatterson1214 No, I remember the vid OEM sensor was wired backwards and don't work. Think it was crank sensor. reverse the pins in the connector, and they worked fine. scope trace showed a ramp up vs drop was the only difference to the signal.
Fully expecting a ground issue. Amazing watching how you made the leap to bad coils. Nice job!
Love it, was suspecting cheap or weak ignition coils from the 1st video! Always use quality parts people!
Never would have expected that. I kept telling myself is a bad ground. Nope! Mr. Ivan saves the day. Great find, master.
never in a million years would any mechanic near me, would have figured this out... amazing work!!!!!
You have inspired me. I have bought a bunch of the items you use. I also created an LLC. I've part time repaired cars for nearly 40 years, mostly just to stay current. Your channel is so educational as well inspiring. Thanks from western NC!
We’re pretty much in the same boat, except mine is at least 10 years older. I hated the new computer age when it arrived and avoided it for a long time, until I basically got raped a couple times at local stealerships firing the parts cannon and charging for not fixing the problem. That’s when I figured it’s time to get with the program. I actually came to enjoy the learning process, which of course is still on going. Going to retire from the full time work thing soon. Think I will check out that LLC route!
That was epic, I haven't seen that since the old GM injector days
Wow very nice diagnostic,amachinazon coils transistor low quality 50%Cooper only..good job.
Well, I was completely off base. However, I once again learned from a master. Thank you for sharing (as always), Ivan.
Yup I didn't believe it either... But scope doesn't lie! 😁👍
Unbelievably brilliant Ivan! Well done and so intriguing!
Seems like I remember this guy that runs a small shop in Upstate New York that said one time that there are mechanics that can look at a waveform and tell you what color underwear you have on even though he didn't have that ability. Ivan, I think you were one of those guys he was referring to. You, Keith DeFazio, Brandon Steckler, and many others have that ability. I wonder what it is going to be like when I need to change a COP on the 'ol Marquis? Oh! wait, it doesn't have COPS. I don't think your Mystique does either. GREAT VIDEO!
Grand Marquis ❤. Someone that appreciates a great vehicle 😊
@@NewLevelAutoWell, I don't know about all of that, however it tends to run when these others won't. I think this is that DeFazio guy right there.
Thanks Ivan. All that Subaru needs to be perfect (aside from the coils) is a STICK! Look forward to the next installment.
Nice! It seems the the dielectric of the secondary was falling internally with higher voltages and the electronic circuit was disturbed.
Those must be the 6 volt version coils, and they were going into over voltage shut down. I knew it the whole time! 😄
That sure was an odd one! Good straight forward diagnosis with no parts cannon fired. My hunch was the pcm did not like the 14.5 volts and was going into some type of over voltage shut down.
Most automotive componenta should take up to 16V no problem...
Throw those coils out the DORMAN!
I see👀 wat you did there 😂🤣🤣🤜🏾🤛🏾👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾
I think dorman coils would of ran better than those Chinese knock offs
at least you got to keep the doorman alternator. LOL
Somehow when I’m down and out you always save my day.
Excellent job Ivan ..This was a bizarre problem.
Amazing! I'd never have thought of that, it's a real weird one!
reminds me of a defective alternator I had that put out 0 amps when it got hot. Took installing aftermarket gauges to display volts and amps to find it.
At least they swapped out the unit even thought their tester showed it was fine.
This reminds me of that Dodge truck you worked on about 4 or 5 years ago down on Staten Island. Where you would rev it up until hitting the rev limiter and the engine would stall out because of one aftermarket coil.
thank you for your time, you are educating mechanics around the world I have been fixing cars for 64 years never too old to learn
Amazing! I would never think a coil would do that. You really know your stuff Ivan!!
Blew my mind...never seen any component just SHUT OFF when voltage is raised from 12V to 14V lol!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics might you do an autopsy on a defective coil? As you say, failure at HIGHER VOLTAGE is counterintuitive.
I'm hooking the scope to my car and getting a baseline reading of the coils today.
Your brain is like a heat seeking missile. Love it. Great work as usual.
Looks like an overvoltage protection circuit kicking in a bit early in these coils. Or maybe the control pulse is 12V only, as the computer runs off a regulated voltage, which causes some transistor not to fully open, as there is a residual voltage between the pulse and the battery voltage. Interesting case!
Your only 2655 miles away, so next time I have a drivability issue I'm heading your way. Great to see a tech that enjoys a challenge.
Great diagnosis and repair👍👍👍
If you let the gauges do their key on sweep after battery disconnect of code reset it will restart normally without excessive cranking
The sad state of the quality of aftermarket and sadly some so called OEM parts has brought many challenges to technicians when they are already challenged by the complexity of modern electronics in the industry.....My nephew has just got his first scope ...thank you for helping others understand the importance of through diagnosis before firing the parts cannon...Karl from eastern Canada
I had bad powers and grounds to ECU or bad drivers pretty soon in ep. 1. That turned out to be wrong, but then in ep. 2 I finally saw the schematic where the coils get both power and ground and thus turned out to have the driver circuit integrated in the coils. It would have helped if you explained that the drivers were integrated in the coils from the start for us home players to do our arm chair diagnosis. Not sure if you said that there were brand new aftermarket coils in ep. 1, but that would have also been a dead giveaway to concentrate on those, especially with the built in drivers.
Good job you have a Y.T. channel to justify your time on this one Ivan! Wonderful use of the 'scope - most auto guys over here wouldn't know how to use one.
Nice job Ivan! I would have still been pulling my hair out 🤯!
Hats of to you sir , every other shop would have put 5 alternators on it by now and still scratching there head 😂😂
if there's one thing I've learned from watching your vids for the last 16 months, it's that Chrysler products and Japanese products require OEM for anything required to use the computers, or it just derps out. and for Chrysler stuff, that also applies to things like the transmission, which requires the OEM fluid or it blows up :P
Amazing to think the previous owner gave up on the car and sold it to the shop for I guess not very much and all it needed was 4 coils (and a professional diagnosis). It feels like they got cheated out of the car because the shop could not find the problem and the owner did not want to keep paying for them to fire the parts cannon.
I'm guessing the fault was owner-induced to begin with xD
You're kinda right but don't forget, it took several techs at different shops and a four hour tow to PHAD to get it sorted.
Watching that change in voltage ramp up and what it did to the engine running, at first I was convinced that the charging system should never go over a certain amount to maintain a low stress level on the electronics. Having the "programmable" Top Don charger/maintainer proved that. Then came the swap with the used OEM coils which probably have that built in voltage level maintainer circuit built in. You proved where the problem is located in the junk coils.
But the question in my mind remains. The charging system output can cause multiple problems in other electronic parts such as the fuel injectors, the PCM/ECM, the fuel pump control module, the pump itself and other "actuators." Who knows what it does to the wiring harness/connectors over time?
My 06 Nissan Frontier has a normal charging voltage of 12.9 shortly after the engine is started up. Now I know why. The ECM controls and maintains that voltage but can increase the generator current output as needed depending on the load.
That was definitely an enlightening moment Ivan, another way to diagnose an engine running problem, and the "WHY" the charging system voltage should be kept at a certain level.
Sorry for the long comment, but it definitely was an eye opening, learning moment.
What a case study! Way to troubleshoot, Ivan!!
Awesome diagnosis Ivan! I can’t imagine figuring this one out!
Who replaces all 4 coils at once? I had replaced the blown coil pack and the ECU that fried, when second one fried a couple months later, I checked the OEM against the AM resistance, and discovered they were not the same, so new ecu and two more AM coils so they matched. Both were within specs but on opposite sides of it. OEM had less resistance.
I didn’t see that coming. I thought it was a short in the engine harness that included the alternator wires. I guess I would have been down a rabbit hole on this one. 🤣🤣
Great find! You had my brain working overtime. Just amazing the havok that can be had with knock off, cheap, Fleabay, and Scamazon parts. Unbelievable.
You forgot Ali Baba.
You view a challenge as fun and not somethig to whine about. Such a pleasure to watch your amazing skill and talent!!
If i've ever learned anything from watch PHAD its to not use crappy aftermarket parts
Pretty neat. Thanks Ivan!
Great reveal !
Amazing it was the coils. I wonder what the difference was between the crappy aftermarket junk and the originals. I have and inductance tester. I wonder if the inductance is the same between them. I bet the increase in voltage from having the alternator hooked up was just enough to cause a breakdown in the insulation of those Chinese junk coils to cause them to arc over. I would put them on a bench power supply and power them up in the dark at 12 volts then at 14.8 volts and see if there is any arcing externally or if you hear anything internally crackling. It would make a good video. None the less you are still and outstanding tech.
Top diagnosis and fix. Like you I've never seen that before!
Ivan. I LOVED your diag. I was with you all of the way. I was a "High resistance" guy from the get-go. Wrong
Thanks for the video Ivan.
You could have asked the owner where they got the coils & that to me would have made me suspicious of them which in turn would have made me get OEM coils & fire the parts cannon with reasonable confidence Cheers Ivan.(I do not have a scope so that is why I would have made my diagnosis as people see a cheep part & want to save money not realising quality counts & a bit more money spent would have saved your diagnosis charge.)
Is that Takata airbag, watch it, it could blow your mind. 🤣🍻
This Subaru reminded me of a full-size Ford van I once worked on. It ran really bad when first started, but smoothed out in a minute or two. Disconnected the alternator, no problem. I measured the ripple, off the chart. The customer did not believe me, told me that it was a new unit (Manny-Mo reman) and that I was trying to rip him off. I told him ok, but leave it disconnected on his way back to Manny-Mo because it was throwing sparks out of the case. Never heard from him again.
Hi Ivan ! I know that ECM takes a count on system voltage for the fuel injectors. Possibly, it does the same for the ignition coils if a triger time changes with the voltage. Nice job Good luck
Those coils remind me of an old 62 Jag I had 45 years ago... The thing ran like trash when I got it, which was the reason I got it pretty cheap.... I noticed it had a Ford coil on it, and of course the Jag is English with Lucas electrics with positive ground, whereas US domestic cars had negative ground. There was a discarded Lucas coil in the trunk so I tossed it on and viola! The thing ran like a top. (Ultimately the reason they changed the coil I suspect was due to a blob of something in the gas tank that would come up against the pickup every now and then, and the thing would quit. I'd go into the back, pull the hose off the electric pump and blow into the tank until I got bubbles. Put the line back on and trick the electric pump to fill the SUs and I was off to the races again! )
So I wonder if those coils were designed for a positive ground system or if the +/- were mismarked. It would have been interesting to reverse the wiring just to see if it made a difference.
One of the best case studies so far! Kudos!!!
Oh Chinesium... Gotta love this one. WOW! This is why I buy OEM or reputable brands (where OEM aren't available). It's worth the price!
Ivan, you rock in my book always what a case study with this vehicle alternator connected run bad and alt disconnected will run ok this will confuse even the master technician and will be throwing parts on it left and right ur approach and thought process always amaze me and with out a scope this will be really hard to fix for sure and by the way i start working for KIA dealer no body knows how to test not guise they just through part at the car and hope it fix it AWESOME fix and thanks for sharing. cheeeers
Well i never saw that coming, unreal. Ignition coils that dont like voltage is crazy LOL.
I'm still scratching my head over this one. They didn't do you any favors by informing you about unplugging the alternator. If you didn't know about the alternator you would have correctly diagnosed the problem much sooner. Good job! Love the content!
Interesting point! But made for a fantastic case study regardless! :)
11:37 According this event probably coils sparkling, jumping inside and do damage on PCM which made mistakes, it's good for experimenting to have mount some diodes on command wires to be proven. Just my opinion...
Look at the scope captures! PCM was never "spiked" 😅
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Then in that case maybe jumping inside coil and made mess.
Great case story and investigation on the problem. Good job two thumbs up.
Wow great job! Scope for the win!!😂
Masterful diagnosis and repair from a master mechanic!👏Bravo!
WOW! HOW THE HELL IS THIS THE CAUSE OF THE ROUGH RUNNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD FOR YOU TO TRACK THIS DOWN!
probably internal fake crap on the counterfeit coils
Throwing test coils away!! Keith would be slapping you and he would smile lol.
I did wonder if the coil earths were crappy. A keith reminder :-D
Another great job by the master ivan!!!
Ivan I wonder if the coils are wound wrong internally.
Would have been nice if you had Put a paddle probe on the coil to see which way it was firing.
Good job as usual,❤ Love the video,the importance of OEM parts.
Very interesting, no green crusties this time but aftermarket junk parts. Have had my share of subpar aftermarket parts too in the 90's and 2000's, cheapest junk isn't worth even that low price, they are just trash.
Awesome Diag Sir! 🍻🍻
Hypothesis proved!
Awesome diag..
scope to the win!
The parts bin has a cannon in it! But the cannon's aim was true!
great work have similar problem bought a kia sorento with amazon coil after a year one needs to replaced
Brilliant thought process in this diagnostic, Ivan!! I couldn't believe it was true! This is another cautionary tale about aftermarket parts - this weird problem wouldn't exist with good coils.
Now wondering what is causing the parasitic draw - probably nothing as spectacular as the coil problem but, who knows 🙂
maybe the parasitic draw will fix the ripple on the ground.
@@robertsmith2956Very good point! And that ripple annoyed me since the beginning.
Fantastic video, my favorite, hope it’s ready for morning coffee
Nice work, dang you did it again!!
Awesome diagnosis.
fantastic work, i respect your knowledge and skills. but we're just supposed to been over and take it backwards from the oems?
And that kids is why you buy OEM. Any savings you might have had was spent chasing the problem. Junk parts made the owner sell the car. That cheap parts price don't look so good now, does it?
The yinyang specials strike again