Put on a PIP? Plan your exit.
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- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
- Escaping the shadow of a PIP (performance improvement plan) is impossible. Best to start over somewhere else.
#leadership #management #PIP #performance
CHAPTERS:
0:00 Intro
0:26 What is a PIP?
1:39 PIP Results
3:01 PIP Next Steps
MORE INFORMATION:
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DISCLAIMER:
The opinions, information, and advice in this video are mine alone. It may not be applicable to you or your situation. It might not even be legal where you are. Please check your local HR, Legal, or other resources before implementing any of it.
I was put on a PIP ( I work as an CNA) only because my coworkers disliked me and bullied me. I even got written up on my days off and on lunch break. I refused to sign the PIP and ended up walking out of that hostile toxic work environment!
Exactly! Underperformance isn’t the only way PIPs are used.
I've worked on sales teams where everyone was PIPed. The amount of employee turnover was enormous. It was a total nightmare.
We ALLLLLL know a PIP is just to make an excuse to fire you.....
An excuse to fire you AND try to deny you unemployment.
One of mine tried the stop unemployment move. NOPPPEEEEE!! HAS TO BE MISCONDUCT....
I have been subjected to PIPs multiple times in the structural engineering profession. Usually this happens because the bosses are incompetent. In many of the instances, the bosses have done something unethical and/or illegal. PIPs are used by bad managers to scapegoat competent employees that make them look bad.
At Integrus Architecture, the boss Tom Corcoran allowed his engineer to retrofit a building by removing asbestos from the ceiling. I figured out the retrofit was not required. The boss decided to put me on a PIP instead. He got angry when I publicized the PIP for all to see. In one of the PIP items, Tom asked me to become dumber.
At the city of Redmond, WA, I was placed on a PIP by non-engineer Carol Lewis because I was not reviewing plans fast enough. She never mentioned it to me for 6 months. This is a problem because conditions of my engineering license require to place public safety. Carol got mad when I shamed her about doing it.
Horrocks Engineers placed me on a PIP so they could hire someone less qualified than I was. I had no problems with them for 6 months. When I rebutted the PIP using facts and emails, I got laid off anyway. Horrocks Engineers got busted for wage theft.
HGA placed me on a PIP after working a year. I had no problems for a year. When I asked for evidence behind the PIP I was refused it. My bosses Brent Forslin and Angela Mead made my life a living hell before I was laid off. They got very angry when I posted the recordings on RUclips. HGA is angry because they cannot hire anyone.
Few years back, my employer did a PIP training plan for the entire engineering team. Results as expected. NOBODY wants to track literally every minute every day via a chess-style time tracking utility. I don't think anyone that went through that is still there. You can only squeeze so much blood from a rock.
The PIP is essentially the company's version of a two weeks notice. If you are ever asked to sign one, tell your manager that you need 24 hours to go over everything before you sign.
Once you're released from his/her office, leave anything belonging to the company on your desk/workspace and walk off the job.
Bingo. Don't try prolonging a season that has ended.
Assuming someone isn`t being managed out the door for another reason, and it really is a performance problem, then there is another option. That is to come to an agreement where you get your shining reference but leave.
If the person is being managed out the door then do not sign that agreement otherwise you are laying a paper trail where the company can show you agreed your performance was poor. From that point on do literally nothing wrong, begin applying for other jobs, and wait for your termination to hit. As soon as it hits its employment tribunal time, go find a solicitor.
@@jmum189 The vast majority of firings are personal; they rarely have to do with performance.
@@jackcarraway4707 People should prepare their defence from day one. Always keep a diary, always keep evidence, you never know, and no employer is perfect so you`ll get material even if the day never comes that you`ll need it for anything.
I did exactly that. Cleaned up my desk, deleted files on the computer, left the company credit card on the computer and tore up the paperwork and called in the next morning after the meeting. Not sure I should have even given them that much notice. DO NOT SIGN A PIP.
Unfortunately this is happening all the time, the manager is not "in-tune" with the employee, or simply does not like them. Never, ever, trust that you will be climbing out of the pit of despair. HR does never, ever, have your best interest, they are working, just like you, for the company. I have been in many roles over the past 45+ years. Not every one is a rock star. I know I will never, ever, consider a management job again. I want to help people to be successful, some staff members don't care, they are there for 7 hours a day, browsing RUclips, disrupting other employees. I, too, was laid off because of someone stabbing me in the back, that same person that took over my position, the same day I left. Luckily, I have friends on the inside and the labor lawyers used it for my benefit. That person, who worked me out of the company, was let go under "not so friendly circumstances", police got involved, and it was not a good sight for people working there. I don't know what occurred, and I do not care, but I did feel bad for my former staff. PIP? You will never get out of it, and in the industry where I work, the HR departments have a "hit list" of whom not to hire. Ask me how I know 😀
I was put on a Pip. I fought it with hr and won. I’ve been promoted twice since then I’m sharing my story just to give people a little bit of help if they are put on a PIP.
Some people do work their way out of it. Congrats to you for your success.
You are the exception to the norm.
@@CLWillthey didn't work their way out they fought it and won.
How did you fight it with HR? Can you please give us some suggestions on how you went about it ?
@@tonyjk for me, the pip was ridiculous. It was for a task I did not do anymore so when I responded, I told them that this is going to be proof of documentation in case of termination then I literally documented what I did in a typical day, including witnesses and used their stats against them. I was not getting enough sales, so I just had to prove that I wasn’t in a sales queue.
Completely agree! It doesn't matter if the PIP is fair or not. Using your phrase is like walking around with a " POTENTIAL POOR PERFORMER" on your forehead in perpetuity.
Shame that there isn't a way out of a PIP. People have peaks and troughs, and this dehumanization is sad.
Exactly. Everyone has a rough patch. PIPs are demeaning, traumatizing, and a self-esteem killer.
If you are put on a PIP then start looking for another job.
I used to work in telecom sales. The telecom sales teams had huge turnover. Everyone was constantly being PIPed. The reason, sales quotas. No one could hit the quotas. I worked for one company that had 150% turnover per year in their sales dept. I left that industry. I am so much happier.
I worked telecom too, horrible experience and very unrealistic goals. One boss once side he expected 20% productivity increases year after year (every year). Clearly he didn’t do the math on that one and how blatantly unrealistic that was.
@@GhostSal In telecom their was high turnover with the sales managers too. Really bad ,poorly managed industry.
Remember PIP is just another way to fire you. Let them. Better to collect unemployment than leave without it. Always scare the HR team. Anytime someone gives you a demand, ask them to put it in writing and cc the HR. This gives you more time to find a job and fix up your resume.
You need to let them fire you without signing it so you have a wrongful termination case. You also need evidence of why they were really getting rid of you. Otherwise if it goes to a tribunal for just wrongful termination you are winning pennies.
@@jmum189in any circumstance no manager should recommend a PIP to employees it is a bullshit excuse and giving them a chance to fire you, A PIP is definitely an excuse for the company to fire an employee if once signed means that you are agreeing to let the company bully you with it , that is why if this ever happened to me I will go looking for a new job go for interview and walk out of the previous company
@2:38 - I don't know much about PIPs, but it doesn't just put a sign on your back, it puts a bull's eye on it, too. 🎯
Often too true.
@@CLWillif I was ever issued a PIP I will not sign it and give a straight face to my boss saying that I quit and I will find a new job first before quitting on current job
Thank you for this. I was always convinced that PIP is a death knell, just wanted to get your insight. Thank you, again
When an employee goes on pip, why is there no focus on the manager? Why does HR automatically take the side of the manager? It takes two. Listen to the employee and figure out what's really going on from that employee's perspective. I guarantee you that you're going to hear bad things about the manager. Then who do you believe? Better not just take the side of the manager, because that would be wrong. I've had friends who went through pips before. They said the same thing. It was all because of the manager doing the wrong things, not listening to them, not empowering employees to do what they need to do, or even gross negligence in caring for the safety of the employees. It's usually not the employee. The employee wants to do good work. They're often placed in a horrible position by management. As soon as a manager initiates the pip process against an employee, HR should go into overdrive and begin getting both sides of the story from a neutral perspective. Let them both explain themselves. They should not just accept that managers are always right. If they're not doing that, then I have to judge HR as being evil. And since they never do put the managers on trial, then I must conclude they are indeed evil. So question: How can an employee fight back against a manager and get the manager tossed out of the company instead of them?
Good HR people will try to assess if there's a pattern. To see if the manager is the issue.
@@CLWill Not from my experience. They also need to be looking at employee resignation and fire rates under each manager. Certain managers will have a lot higher rates of those. But HR’s job isn’t to track that. I’ve never heard of any company HR looking critically at its managers. The only times they do is when an employee goes to HR complaining about a manager’s improper conduct such as sexual relations with subordinates. Then it’s in the company’s interest to act in order to defend itself from legal liability. But as for employees on pip, never once have I heard HR intervened to prevent the pip and place the manager on pip. Never happened in the history of mankind. Haha. It should, though. The manager / employee relationship is like a marriage. It takes two. Usually it’s the one in power who has the most responsibility for when things aren’t going well. Blaming the victim is abusive. Which is the exact feeling people on pip often have, from what I gather. It’s an abusive relationship, and HR is taking the side of the abuser in these cases.
@@stevenweigand7153 My last manager had five programmers in one job position get fired including me in the space of two years. When he served me notice he was going to fire me in a month, I quit two days later as I noticed my co-workers treated me differently. Best to get these things over with, and I did find a job that now pays triple what I was making before so I guess being fired was the best thing to happen. I was very lucky, though.
A manager who fires 5 programmers in under 2 years can't look good...that's an 86% turnover rate over 2 years.
The only way you can stop this is to name and shame these bad people in front of everyone. Many times these PIPs are cover for the bad bosses’s unethical actions such as wanting the employee fired so they can hire someone cheaper, more kiss-ass to the boss, and to give the boss a big fat raise of five figures. Who is going to work for someone that is a jerk? No one I know.
My boss at Integrus Architecture got angry when I posted the PIP along with the 5 star review I got earlier. He got angry when employees started leaving.
The city of Redmond, WA, placed me on a bogus PIP because my boss Carol Lewis was an idiot that had no qualifications to do her job. She got angry when I outed her for being incompetent.
The HR Director got angry at me for showing off the PIP to her hubby’s boss. Her hubby ended up getting fired from his job of 25 years.
Also the PIP was used evidence in a wrongful death lawsuit. Carol Lewis ended up getting fired.
Horrocks Engineers placed me on a PIP for bogus reasons. I rebutted everything with evidence. It did me no good because HR sided with the liars. These liars were members of the LDS Church. I outed them publicly. The company also got busted for wage theft. The boss got angry when I posted his unflattering college transcript and his emails showing off his bad behavior. Many of the employees ended up quitting.
HGA was a recent PIPper. They did the unjustified PIP. After I was placed on the unjustified PIP, my boss Brent Forslin and HR moron Angela Mead acted really nasty to me. I recorded all of the conversations and posted them to RUclips for all to see. They are angry because everyone is seeing how bad they are as people.
One idea is to hold hearings into these unjustified PIPs. If the bosses do this, then they need to be penalized. The employers would be forced to display signage showing they are bad bosses.
People can also show off their bad behavior to the bad boss’s alma mater and the town it is located it. I know it works because colleges hate bad publicity.
@@CLWill There are NO good HR people.
I got put on a PIP for having coffee pot in my office. There were no rules against this - but it "engendered separation between myself and my team" - I kid you not. This from the newly hired a-hole who had a salt water aquarium installed in his office the first week of employment. He had me fired within 3 months of his hiring. I also refused to sign anything. He was fired 6 months later.
It was probably a vengeance of some kind against you. Good on you to hold your ground.
A PIP isn’t just used against people underperforming, people are sometimes put on one because a boss doesn’t like them. So what happens is the person is giving tasks and goals that the boss knows you can’t meet (and likely no one can). Then they put you on a PIP when you inevitably faíl. Sometimes it isn’t even a goal that’s missed but an excuse for some other reason.
This is true. A good HR team will stand in their way, but they are often outgunned and lose that battle.
@@CLWill Unfortunately HR will often backup even shady bosses, the best hope someone actually has is to be in a union with an effective union rep that’s on your side. Granted, that’s not all that common today.
@@CLWilla good HR team won’t recommend a PIP to employees at all
I knew a girl who went on a PIP, and then she became a senior programmer, a manager, and senior manager, and then later on, a "partner" at Microsoft... anyway, at another company, once the manager who was about 32 found out I started working in the early '90s, meaning I am over 50, he started to nitpick on me. And then one day, he told me everything he communicate to me will be verbal and followed by an email. I could have sued for age discrimination. But they offered 4 months pay as a separation package. HR admitted he did things wrong but refused to put it in writing. Could have sued, but the law firm said it is difficult to establish proof. The law firm said, if people can successfully sue for age discrimination, these cases will be EVERYWHERE, because they exist EVERYWHERE.
Sorry for your experience.
I was put on a PIP after 20 years of service , 6 months ago, i worked my butt off to get off of it, and “succeeded “ but,,, I always felt that I was still being watched, judged,, etc.. never supported by my boss, just yesterday they pulled me back in the office and gave me a choice of being demoted or termed,, I chose to be demoted,, only because I need a job,,but I really feel conflicted about it, I will never feel good about being there anymore. I know I will never feel “liked” anymore , will never feel confident .
Exactly. This is what many people feel like, even after successfully exiting a PIP. Sorry for you.
Thank you for the video. It’s great advice.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
I knew one was coming but fortunately I am already interviewing elsewhere when they slapped me with it.
Good for you. Move on to something new.
The problem with job requirements these days is the managers keep adding extra requirements or even changing them to skills the employee doesnt have upon starting while not even increasing the persons salary in line with asking for these extra requirements.. instead of keeping them the same as was agreed to upon employment..
Yeah exactly , this PIP thing is a lie to improve but actually it gives them opportunities to fire you
3:59 could I tell potential employers the following:
“I am looking to leave my current role because I was reassigned to a team that I believe is not a good fit for me”??
Just tell them you left because you were motivated to excel, grow and find a great opportunity like the one you are interviewing for. Then tell them what it is about the new company and role that you can bring to do the job. Nothing more about the old. Stay on the future.
Careers/Jobs are like relationships.
Both must be benefiting or getting something out of it.
When one is not performing as expected or failing to meet expectations, they are put on notice that corrective action will be taken if this behavior continues. Corrective action can include but is not limited to termination.
Once certain infractions have happened or lines have been crossed it is hard if not impossible to recover and return back to "business" as usual.
You both look at each other differently now and the trust is gone and most likely will never return.
It's over, you just don't know it yet and are going through denial.
The relationship is now dysfunctional and doomed for failure. It's just a matter of when.
In both scenarios, whether it be your career or your romantic relationship, it is best to just break off and the sooner the better. Go your separate ways, and start over fresh with a clean slate with a new place of employment or a new romantic partner.
It's hard but it's the right thing to do.
Life is hard, it's even harder when your stupid.
In this world you either lead, follow, or get out of the way.
Ten years ago I was called on the carpet for my job performance. Then I was put on a PIP. I didn't get to work on it much, because I was laid off one week later due to a sudden staff reduction! Three years later the company tried to recruit me back!
Ouch. I assume you didn't go back 🙃
@@CLWill Nope. Told 'em I was not interested!
I'm a manager who was asked by my boss to put a member of my team on a PIP because that team member had drastically under-performed for an entire quarter. I made it clear in my emails to HR that my goal was not to dispose of this person, but to help the team member perform to the level of the rest of the team. I have provided additional mentoring and feedback to this agent and have made a point to not just point out areas needing improvement, but to celebrate when successes are achieved. The agent is nearly to the end of the process and has markedly improved in most areas. I am hopeful this agent can complete the PIP and continue in the role.
What i don't want for this person is to have a foul cloud of "potential poor performer" looming over. Is there anything that can be done to increase the likelihood that this worker will flourish?
Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Yes, you can help this person. You need to be their staunch advocate. You need to document their recovery, clearly and in their performance reviews. In a place and a way that future managers will see it. And make sure HR sees it clearly too.
When asked about this person, you need to say "they hit a rough spot, but the amazing way they recovered is a testament to how strong and resilient they are". When you hear some feedback that's not great about them, push back.
For this person to escape the cloud, they not only need to perform they need you (and other) advocates to help erase the cloud for them.
@@CLWill Thank you for your reply. I will absolutely do so. I take care of my people. Thanks for the instruction on making a clear written record of the accomplishment. I wonder if it would be appropriate / HR-approvable to award this person something or buy a small gift to celebrate the achievement. I'll ask HR about it.
How I wish I could have a manager like you.. this is so rare.. you seemed to be not only a good and fair manager but also a nice human being! Your employee is so lucky to have you as a manager!
Its obvious you should immediately start looking for a new job when you get a Pip but the bigger issue is searching for a new job is hard too. So what to do
Hey Chris, quick question. I am in the United States. A couple months ago I ended up quitting my job while on a pip. If you could please answer whether my former employer would reveal to the new employer about the pip during background/reference check? I’m worried that a pip would hurt my chances of landing my next role.
Depends on a lot on the company, and on the request.
Most companies, when asked as part of a background check will simply confirm employment dates and the answer to the "don't rehire" checkbox. Most systems keep a flag that indicates "do not rehire".
They usually only check that for malfeasance (theft, harassment, etc) and not performance. So unless your PIP was really bad -- absolutely terrible performance, the checkbox was not likely set. So a request for dates would be clean.
That said, if they do a real reference check, and ask to speak to your last manager, then you could have an issue. Here again, many companies won't do that. They don't want the liability of having said bad things about people. But some could.
That's why, no matter what terms you left on, I recommend taking the high ground, and being adult about it.
If I were you, I'd be a little honest with a potential new employer. "I left my last job because it was a terrible fit for me. My departure wasn't great, and I'm looking to turn a new page" And then focus all your attention on the potential. "I'm excited for this role, and I can see ..." and so on.
Hope this helps.
@@CLWill Thank you so much for the advice. I don’t think I left necessarily on bad terms but I did leave without notice as I thought I had secured another role when I left. As per your advice I’ll probably wait it out with my next job offer since you mentioned that most wouldn’t bring it up on bg checks / references. I also didn’t know that there’d be liability on companies if they disclosed details about a pip during a reference check. So thank you for mentioning this. If I found out that they do bring the pip up, I will be completely honest with it if I have to look for another job again. If I had known about how pips worked from the start, I would have never signed it. Thank you for your advice sir. Have a great weekend.
Pack It in, Pal.
Any bad appraisal or PIP will show up when you receive an offer at a new job ? And they call the old job for references ?
Many (most?) larger companies will not give references beyond start/end dates and perhaps an indication of "would rehire".
That said, yes, leaving while on a performance plan could make it out, especially from smaller firms.
Its just a paper trail to cover the ash of company HR if the victim makes any legal claim when fired. Act accordingly.
A PIP is your company giving you 30-60 days notice of your termination!
Can i resign in between PIP? Will i get the relieving letter ?
Yes. No. Yes you can resign any time. No you will not get a note that says you resolved the PIP.
@@CLWill thank you for your reply. what I meant was suppose a PIP starts from 1st February and ends on 20th Feb , can i resign anywhere between that timeline while in PIP without any consequences. Please reply
Sounds like a PIP stands for 'get your ass ready for a kick out the job'.
Often that's exactly right.
When ur junior is more talented then this situation arises their is never a performance issues it’s just making employees silently resign job😂😂
Bad advice from an HR person. HR is only to support management. At 3:52 the answer is NOT that you were in a situation were you were unable to excel. That is BS. Most people on PIP were being fired due to other reasons. I have known many people that were excelling but the decision was made to cut the budget and hire younger workers. PIPs are the cowardly corporate way to not pay unemployment or other benefits. Fighting them is hard because it takes time to find a lawyer. I spent so much time documenting my work with a terrible micro manager who never promoted one person in our group. It was a terrible situation for all of us who cared about their work. CLWill, why don't you use your influence to tell HR to come clean from these practices. I doubt you will.
Advice to those presented a PIP is to NEVER SIGN IT, and if you can, get a lawyer and document the exaggerated BOGUS claims and negotiate a severance package.
Everything you say here is what I say in the video. At 3:52 I say "or maybe..." Shortly thereafter I say what you said "that it's often an excuse to move you out."
And the entire tone of the video is admonishing the organization for being terrible at PIPs. You clearly heard from this what you wanted to hear..
What about a PIP was issued because you stood up agaist an abusive and vindictive manager who has often given PIPs to individuals who dare confront him on his behavior?? Isnt the company supposed to provide a safe working environment to their employees or is all that company core values a bunch of bull💩💩💩
Have you addressed this with HR? At least to put it on the record. Then consider contacting an employment law attorney about retribution.
@@CLWill HR works to protect the company not the employee... Anytime you bring an issue to HR against a manager they will draft a plan with the manager to get you out.
@@CLWill BTW... This will be the 2nd and 3rd time an employee brings this issue to HR
@@nickluciano7914 Exactly. The only thing HR is good for from a non management perspective is to go over benefit coordination.
@CLWill, how did HR get so bad? Thoughts?
You guys really help people about PIP, really? rofl, what a shitshow when it comes to Pipazon..
Just leave, not that hard.
Yep.
Some people hold out hope that they'll win the lotto though too...
U cud had made a short video with equal value to viewer.
Go for it. You make it and let me know.
Well explained
Thank you
Hi just want to know if PIP will be mention on my Reliving letter
Bad news: It almost certain will be mentioned in the termination letter.
Good news: It is often not mentioned when future employers call to confirm your employment dates.