Should traditional Catholics be using the Pre-1955 missal?
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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Breaking with tradition is breaking with The Holy Spirit.
From what I understand,the pre-1951 Holy Week,especially Mass of the Presanctified Good Friday Liturgy,goes back to the Apostles or their students such St Timothy.
I got the 1962 missal before getting the pre 1955 missal. I can see for myself, the pre 1955 missal is far superior when it comes to everything around the mass.
Could you give some examples please? I'm new to this issue.
Yes let's all throw tomatoes at the SSPX to reassure the modernists the division among the traditional groups. Lord have mercy on us.
Yes! I totally agree! It should be!
God bless you and your family members and stay safe ,after what we heard about the school in Texas
Yes, I agree we should.
Fr. Lasance Missal (1937 & 1945 imprimatur) and St. Andrews Missal (1945 imprimatur) both available from Biretta Books ❤👍
They don’t have it listed on their web page🤷
@@THEJET52 They currently have "The New Roman Missal" by Fr. Lasance; which contains the Holy Week Liturgies as practiced before the 1955 Liturgies. The St. Andrews Missal, however, isn't listed. I just checked a few minutes ago.
Does the older Fr. Lasance have the musical notation in gregorian notation or in modern musical?
I got Father Lasance Missal. Just two weeks in my hands
Things happen to me that just don't seem right like receiving communion on good Friday then I find out we didn't always do that.
SSPX doesn't want to be accused of schism, so Lefebvre insisted they use the 62.
The 62 is categorically refused by sedes who reject its origin in the Roncalli pontificate. Imposing these books on the SSPX in 1982 led to an exodus of sedes from the SSPX.
His position was essentially that it was the last acceptable missal. It was a diplomatic decision due to the current talks he was having with Rome. Although since it's at the point now where it'll probably never go anywhere, they might as well use the pre-55 missal.
@@thebarbelllifestyle1478 The 1976 General Chapter of the SSPX settled that whichever liturigcal books were used locally (pre-55, 55, 62, 65, 67) would be used by the SSPX in that place. The pre-55 were used by trads in most of the Angliphone world, whereas the 65 and 67 prevailed in France. +Lefebvre himself used the 65 well into the 1970s. He even used the 1969 on occasion ilduring the earliest 1970s for which then-Fr. Louis Guérard des Lauriers rebuked him. The use of the 1962 was imposed on the priests and seminarians in 1982 fundamentally for two reasons and a few lesser reasons. The two main reasons: +Lefebvre was desperate to strike a deal with the Wojtyła papacy in order to receive some kind of official, Roman approval for his "experiment of Tradition". The sede element within the SSPX was opposed to this and would never agree to accomodation with the Roman authorities. Also, keep in mind, that not only the canonical standing of the SSPX was at the time officially "suppressed", the very natural of what the SSPX is was nebulous. +Lefebvre envisioned the SSPX to be a confregation of secular clerics living common life. The original 1970 decree of erection from +Charrier established the SSPX ad experimentem as something little different than, to use the apt and accurate language of an American sede priest lately deceased, the Sacred Heart Auto Club. By imposing the 62 books, +Lefebvre would effectively cut off the sede element who would categorically refuse the 62 since they were promulgated by someone whom the sedes regarded as an illegitimate antipope. Indeed, this is what happened, and +Lefebvre was able to proceed with his negotiations with the Wojtyła papacy, negotiations that were ultimately fruitless. Second, there existed (still exists?) within the SSPX a spirit that was strongly pro-French and, at the same time, condescending to anything Anglo-American. For this reason, the was things were done in France came to be given priority to the exclusion of other customs, especially American and English customs. The 62, 65, and 67 books were those used by French trad, and, so, those were the favoured books by the French leadership of the SSPX which fully supported the move by +Lefebvre in 1982 to impose unilaterally the 62 books contrary to what had been decided in 1976 by the body of SSPX membership.
They got accused anyway, so it would be good to go back to pre-55
That is true Archbishop Marcel was forced to use the 1962 he was going to use the pre 1960s originally they would not let him
Completely agree! Although, if it’s not in the missal, there should be a 1955 revised version to include Our Lady of Fatima and some of the 20th century Saints (who are actually credible) in the Calendar.
Which 20th century saints do you suggest? I would think Maximilian Kolbe and Padre Pio would be two men who are impressive to many Catholics.
@@PadraigTomas that’s about it in my opinion..
Right now, the most important thing is that sincere truth loving Catholics get the the Salvation Doctrine of the Church right. Everything and epecially prayer is built on the foundation of Orthodoxy. We are where we are now because the heresy of salvation outside the Church, that is, without the true faith in Christ, and the Sacrament of Baptism, was accepted already well before Vatican infiltrated 98% of the clergy and the papacy.
PRE 1955 it’s the only way to go;
The ‘62 was a bridge missal to the new mass, it is not sufficient. May be streamlined and less weighty but insufficient. I have always used the St. Andrew.
Agreed, I can see that.
There is nothing heretical in the ‘62 Missal so we shall continue to use until another council wants to go back to 1955.
The discussion isn’t about whether or not it is heretical because clearly it is not, however, it is lacking…
I use the 62, but loved my St. Andrew Missal unfortunately it's falling apart.
A 'falling apart' missal (& bible) is/are VERY PRECIOUS! 😇 You have a TREASURE in your hands. Be sure to pass it down ....
And why use the 1911 Pius X breviary? We need the original breviary composed and used for over 1500 years. The monastic Benedictine breviary is superior in this regard.
An easier to use.
Very expensive too purchase too-
In his promulgation of the reform of the Breviary, Pius X abrogated older forms and said they do not fulfill the Divine Office
@@immaculata_marian This is incorrect. The older form of the Roman Office alone was abrogated. All monastic orders were allowed to retain their traditional breviaries. The 1962 Benedictine Breviary is still allowed for daily use and is sung publicly in many monasteries around the world, including in the United States in Clear Creek Abbey. The monastic office is the last remaining office which retains the original Roman arrangement of psalms, so traditional that it uses the pre-Clementine translation of the hymns.
Pre 55 or bust. Even the novus ordo has more readings at Easter vigil than the 62.
It's not the people are never happy - it's that the hstory and words of the Liturgy has never been investigated properly. Now they are - for Truth and clarity.
What's your opinion on using the St. Pius X reformed breviary Dr. Marshall? I know it caused quite the uproar among the clergy when first instituted.
Many people at the SSPX Holy Mass I attend use the St. Andrew missal or the Fr. Lasance missal or the St. Joseph missals from the 1950's. Not true "they only do the 1962".
The people can bring whatever missal they want to Mass. SSPX priests use the 1962 missal, however sheepishly.
I use the the 1962 so I'm way ahead if you can even compare it to the NO. If later on it changes, It will be ok as long as it isn't the NO.
Amen
Nothing later than 1957. In 1958 General Motors introduced the Edsel which only lasted two years in production.
The Edsel was introduced by the FORD Motor Co., not GM.
@@markthomas6436 I drive corrected.
There are more issues going on than this...this is just a symptom....this is the end times that John wrote about in Revelation that Christ revealed to him.....better to focus on the basics of salvation & eternity....this stuff only applies to earth & our eyes should be on Christ & eternity. Time is getting short
Hello Dr Marshall what is your view about the knights of Columbia please
I have a 1739 Officium Hebdomadae Sanctae book and I will celebrate this 2024 Holy Week by using this edition.
I use my 1958 St. Joseph's Missal.
🙏
Surely the oldest rite was more spiritual than the new ordo, also the byzantine one is more than this one
With Byz. within Roman Communion. Litirgies centuries older, and no infighting like this.
I’m not sure why the Missal ever needed changing? Granted, it did not exist in Christ’s time, so there was some development to it, in order to make a finished product. Christ never handed anyone a missal. But, for a really long time a missal similar to the St Andrew’s Missal was in use. So why move from that? Why have a 1962 Missal? I don’t believe (I could be wrong here) there was a standard prior to Pope Pius V. There were various missals but no standard. He initiated a standard and that should’ve been retained for good. Stop messing with a good thing. Although I use the 1962 version (because that’s what my priest uses), I personally think that we should remain at a version promulgated by Pope Pius V.
Pre 1955 is the ideal . Mv
Absolutely!!!
Pre 55 for me
Do you have a source for the pre-1955 missal? and other traditional material ... like Catechism and teaching materials?
The Fr. Lasance missal is pre-1955.
Over a decade ago, there was an online effort to publish pre-55 altar missals. However, that seemed to have collapsed several years ago.
The Fr. Lasance Missal is lovely and you can purchase a cool leather cover with zipper to keep your Missal and ribbons protected and your holy cards from falling out and being lost.
I bought my Fr Lassance from Biretta Books.
@@yoli5779 Thank you, Yoli ❤ I went to their website & will be getting a Fr. Lasance Missal next month. I appreciate getting your info - many thanks for your help !!
where can I get this Missal l am a Benedict Nun and l really want to use this Missal
You can get them at Biretta Books - Fr. Lasance Missal (1937 & 1945 imprimatur) and St. Andrews Missal (1945 imprimatur). These are EXACT reprints of the originals. Just go to their website & easy to order them. Hope this was helpful to you ❤
Once Bergoglio and his successor (assuming he’s a clone of Bergoglio) are gone, we need a Vatican III - let’s get it right this time!!!
@Bartholomew P Malleck I don’t mean “cloned” literally, I just mean someone who shares in the same modernist philosophy as Bergoglio
Nah. No more Vatican councils for a while. let's have a Lateran VI.
Dr. Marshall, why did you mention the time frame for changes starting 1951?
What a great idea!!!
Help me Dr. Marshal, I am trying to be as traditional as I can but I don’t understand a lot and I need to know exactly what I need to get to follow correctly. I try hard but have some understanding problems!!!
Archbishop Lefebvre didn't always adopt the 1962 indult Mass of John XXIII until he made the mistake of dialoguing with Rome and a compromise was made to be recognized by Rome.
Actually for a while he used a mixed missal with vernacular readings. To my knowledge at no point did the Society ever use the 1955 missal.
As a proof : Easter Matins were composed because the Holy Saturday was celebrated in saturday afternoon and ended ad vespers time (see ANT Vespere autem sabbati). Easter Matins couldn't have been sung in case Easter vigil should have been celebrated during the night....
@Bartholomew P Malleck it is an antiphon sung during the Communion in the pre 1951 Easter vigil, so at the end of this vigil...at vespers time !
YES!!!!!!
Yes. Council of Trent Session 7 Canon 13. Also the few remaining pre-1968 Bishops must conditionally Ordain Consecrate all Novus Ordo clerics in the trad Rite.
I have one
Or how about the 1957 1958 missal . No later mv
My missal is 1959
There are bigger fish to fry at this time
Aren't there always?
@@pattiday431 Attendance down 50% since Covid. A pope that will not call out the baby killers nor the USCCB. A pipe that has sold outChina Catholics
No one ever talks about the Byzantine Catholics. None of this applies. Does it?
Go back to the 1570 for extra assurance
People say I Believe in prayer do you Believe in GOD who made you before your in the womb
There are bigger fish to fry.
The problem with Abp. Vigano elaborating on this argument is that the laity think they can make judgments for themselves, in similar manner to sedevacantists regarding the papacy. So I must disagree with Abp. Vigano on this point: Abp. Lefebvre knew precisely what he was doing when he chose the 1962 books with the reformed Holy Week of Pius XII. We cannot pick and choose which orders we obey based on theories or preferences. And all these suppositions about what Bugnini was doing at that time are theories, not proofs. We can only disobey--as Mons. Lefebvre always insisted--when the faith is at stake. The liturgy of Holy Week under Pius XII does not endanger the faith. The insertion of St. Joseph's name into the Canon does not endanger the faith (much less invalidate the Mass). We therefore must adhere to the last good rite, that of 1962, until a future pontiff will make a final decision regarding the 1962 reforms.
You do not have Wisdom. The church canonical law permits you receive on the hand, so God can not judge you. When you choose to not receive the Eucharist you are being deceived by the devil, because you are missing the most important, fill your soul with Jesus. The person next you will take the Eucharist and he will have an encounter with Jesus. You are leading people to the devil.
Most Latin Rite Catholics should probably be using the 1970 Missal.
I use pre-55 missals when I can and ALWAYS use the pre-50 breviary. We trads however really ought to use the missal, breviary, ritual, and pontifical as they existed in 1903. This altogether circumvents the problematic changes of the 20th century.
Yes, the 20th century should be blotted out. Worst and bloodiest century in history.
I agree. The novus ordo is so deep rooted that we need to avoid its very origins
Why 1903? What was the first revision made after 1903?
edit: seems like it was the installation of Pope Pius X, who messed with the Roman psalter
Where can you get them?
Yes. I like the old way
Use pre 1570 Missals!
1962 was the arch Bishops taking the knee and plea to keep tradition. Without that fssp would not exist or any other trad latin catholic mass. So I take my 1945 saint Andrews missal and have it blessed sspx priest does not say there is anything wrong with me having it. How ever we all understand 1962 was the last chance to save the latin rite. Without it fssp, ick would not exist or any priest that would like to say the Latin mass. And many of us at the sspx use the st Andrews and fr lasance.
Wow! Thank you for breaking this down for us. Over my head but understand it better…
Praised be Jesus Christ.
I still have my pre 1960 missal where mass is written in latin and English translation
‘62 does that as wll
Archbishop Lefebvre said:
“The basic principle of the Society’s thinking and action in the painful crisis the Church is going through is the principle taught by St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica (II, II, q. 33, a.4). That one may not oppose the authority of the Church except in the case of imminent danger to the Faith. Now, there is no danger for the Faith in the liturgy of Pope Pius XII and Pope John XXIII, whereas there is great danger for the Faith in the liturgy of Pope Paul VI, which is unacceptable.”
What's the difference between the St. Andrew missal and the Fr. Lasant missal? And which one should I purchase? And shall I not bother with 1962 missal, being someone who would like to start attending the TLM? Also, aside from the major cons of the 1962 missal, are there any pros/benefits that the pre 1955s don't have? I guess there are pros but they are very slight/minimal.
JESUS, MARY, I LOVE YOU SAVE SOULS!
Any of you know where to buy a copy of pre-1955 Latin Missal? I only have 1962 version. Please reply to let me know. Thank you.
Search online for either Fr Lasance missal or St Andrews missal
The are both pre 55
After a print is out usually sells out fast so grab one while you can find it or be on a wait list
What is the best option for someone who doesn’t have access to a TLM nearby? I don’t know of any within a 2 hour drive or even further than that. What is the best way for me to bring up my children as traditional Catholics when there isn’t access to a TLM?
Where does it end 🤦♂️…. Atheist, Christian, Catholic, trad Catholic, not trad enough … not Latin enough…..guys honestly £65 for a missal plus a cover for it … it’s just getting expensive…now I need a pre 1950 missal or whatever… how many missals? How many Bible translations?
Lot of people in the path. Not so many of us in the way.
Where is THE church?
Progressive or conservative it almost doesn’t matter. I’m so fed up with this garbage.
You can pretty much guarantee that if someone came out with a 1802 missal or whatever someone would say oh we need to go back to a time before missals existed…..
At some point we have to figure out what on earth we are trying to achieve here.
None of this is Christ. Surely.
You can pay for a new missal by not eating out four times. A pair of tennis shoes costs more than a missal. It's an investment!
When I Am reading One Bible GOD had written thee thou thy One I Am reading it to myself
Yes.
Yes.
Today is Ascension Thursday. END OF STORY.
You're backing yourself into a corner, dude, when you hardly have any room to maneuver at all.
Couldn’t agree more that the pre-55 Holy Week needs to be the standard. There was no good reason to truncate the blessing of palms on Palm Sunday. There’s nothing heretical about bringing the washing of the feet into Holy Thursday Mass, but, we’ve seen what that’s become in the Novus ordo. There was no good reason for the myriad changes to the Easter Vigil, changing how the fire was blessed and brought forth, reducing the prophecies from 12 to 4 (!), the splitting of the litanies (these last two were corrected, to a point, in the Novus ordo Holy Week, because everyone could see how much of a trainwreck they were), and a few other things. I am big on the worst revision having been to Good Friday. It seems crazy that on the day when we commemorate Our Lord’s offering of Himself on the Cross, that the Cross is removed from the church! And worse, that the solemn procession of the Eucharist, accompanied by the mighty Vexilla regis, was suppressed in favor of a simple procession, while the procession of the Cross is given the priority. Then there is the matter of cutting out the parts that are from the Mass, like the “orate fratres” and the chalice with wine, such that it is no longer officially called the “Mass of the pre-Sanctified.” And then there is the instruction that all are to speak (not chant) the Lord’s prayer together with the priest, and the distribution of Holy Communion after the sacred ministers oddly change into purple vestments. This was a big step toward the Novus ordo mentality, without any good reason. I am also brought back to the Easter Mass, filmed at Our Lady of Sorrows in Chicago, narrated by Fulton Sheen where Sheen said about the cope that it is the Church’s long standing tradition to never completely drop any element, chant, prayer, or article of clothing that once held a privileged place in her worship. The 1955 reform, as far as I know, completely suppressed the use of broadstoles and folded chasubles, which were used throughout the Lenten season in place of dalmatics and tunicles. The 1955 reform should be completely dropped.
How about using the first Missal printed after Quo Prium. True form
Bugnini was actually a lowly subaltern for the reforms of Holy Week.
Pius the XII was already in trouble and under the influence of you know who that I can’t tell but they kill God
Lefebvre told them they had to use the 62. They can never go backward or forward because Lefebvre insisted on the 62.
Well, the modern SSPX hasn't upheld Lefebvre's ideals recently (treating with Modernist Rome and accepting Conciliar priests as validly ordained, despite questions that Lefebvre had concerning the Conciliar rites). They could very easily switch back to the pre-1955 Liturgy. It would make finding a pre-1955 Breviary easier, for sure.
That was then and this is now, there is no reason to belligerently hold to the ‘62 in 2022 and beyond. The Archbishop chose the path of the most reason at the time.
And yet the SSPX priests refuse to disobey Lefebvre so it's not happening.
Perhaps in time. I notice quite a few if not most use earlier missal at mass. I believe +Fellay was not an asset during his term as superior general, and I’m being polite.
@@leontinemarie Well Said!
Your opinion noted. Next!
Bootenini......I love it !!!!
The only thing us Catholics should be worried about is our doctrine true to the bible !
And Sacred Tradition.
Yes.
Also, I joined SSPX fairly recently due in great part to Dr Marshall’s teaching (and the diocese’s prohibition of many TLM’s and Ecclesia Dei chapels) and bought a Fr Lasance missal (pre 1962). It was recommended and sold at the SSPX store too.
You people think you know every One I didn’t know who I was until I was Born Again
GOD and our Father made us before were in the womb you One people kill One in the flesh
Do you Believe in One God Jesus the Holy Ghost the Father or your god Jesus the Mother Satan