Book Edmure ruined robb's plans. He send army and won battle against Tywin but Robb wanted Tywin to enter in westerlands to trap him.Robb told Edmure to hold Riverrun, not going out for glory
It still blows my mind that a Red Wedding survivor was deemed to not have the best story of the council participants. Also, that said survivor had the most political experience and arguably had the best strength of character, but was still rejected. Benioff and Weiss are hacks. Great video Grease.
And the one who told him to shut up was Sansa, by the way. A person who intentionally let her own brother (Rickon) die in a battle against Ramsay while omitting the war plan to Jon so that Jon might die and she gets the Winterfell throne. By the end of the series, Sansa is completely under the influence of Ramsay and Littlefinger. She has no right to be condescending to Edmure.
@@ashleyofnaath I mean the Bran thing is silly but I don’t know why that then translates to being captured at the read wedding as being a particular notable characteristic. A lot of riverlord and northern lords were captured.
Sansa telling Edmure to sit down is so weird and annoying. I actually thought the choice was clever, as he’s a good compromise candidate for King who will care for the small folk and nobles alike. He will rely on the new council for power, cementing the new order and he’s related to the families of the North and the Vale.
Agreed out of everyone there he has a decent claim to the throne. Given the sexism towards women it eliminates a lot of the women there. Who else could be king maybe Gendry, but he has zero qualifications, or Robin the same issue, The Dornish Prince that is not named. Like idk he seems like a medium choice no one would really dislike for king.
Plus, Riverrun is his houses castle which would likely be given to a potential younger son. It's in his best interest more than most to avoid war in Westeros, since just about every war ends with the Riverlands decimated.
Nothing weird about it bog standard cheap laugh that modern script writers rely on because they’re bad at their jobs. And they wonder why no one cares if they’re on strike or not
How was Edmure a good compromise candidate? He spent most of the war captured, first by Jamie, then by the Freys, then by Jamie again. He had virtually no experience as a ruling lord, and was shown through out the show as petty and self absorbed. With that as his background what actually qualified him to be king of Westeros.
@PaulCDehlinger Rob broke his oath to Walder, which incited his betrayal. It's like the Westerosi Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Only Robb is the bad Germans in this scenario. Robb was also in rebellion against the throne so you could argue that what what Walder did was lawful evil at worst.
With Sansa, Bran, & Tyrion sniggering at him, if I were there I would’ve looked at em and said “And wtf do you three find so funny? Do you all wanna compare who’s mistakes were more catastrophic since this whole thing began? Cause if that’s the case Ed is in last place!” I didn’t like that cheap shot.
I hated how the show Starks were all about family for 5 seconds in the end, but when they have an actual surviving member of family left, they treat him like crap. Like WHY was there no scenes with him? First thing I would think of was the kids wondering ehy he didn't join them when they reclaimed Winterfell or asking about the Red Wedding, like anything? I hate how the show just warped itself amd characters to have Sansa and Arya be bigger amd better than they actually were. Instead of actually having them earn it.
@@Ashbrash1998 Look at what the Starks “all about family” did - Sansa provoked Jon to declare war against Ramsay, knowing Jon was tired of fighting at that point and he will be the one who has to put his life on the line in the battlefield, not her. - Sansa deliberately omitting her war plan from Jon, causing Jon to improvise against Ramsay that he almost died. She also chose to sacrifice Rickon, her own blood brother, just to win the war. - Sansa didn’t keep her promise about keeping Jon’s true lineage a secret which caused Dany to become more paranoid and hostile to Jon. - Bran made a creepy remark about the night Sansa got raped by Ramsay. - Bran intentionally sit the whole conflict and let Dany genocide the civilians so that Jon could kill her and then Bran will usurp the throne from Jon. - Arya, Sansa and Bran did nothing to prevent Jon from getting exiled. - Sansa insulted Edmure, a victim who’s at the front row seat of the red wedding. - Arya just left her family by the end of the story just to see what’s west of Westeros, instead of asking Bran (because you know, he has global CCTV visions). Tywin made a mistake by not killing all of the Starks post-red wedding.
I think that Edmure is a good tactical commander where if you give him an army, point him to the enemy, and tell him to kick their ass, he can do it relatively well. However, he's a poor strategic leader because Edmure doesn't have it in him to make hard decisions alone. I see him as the reverse Randyll Tarly where Randyll is often described as one of the best soldiers and generals of Westeros but his actual record is not nearly as impressive. Meanwhile, Edmure is usually shown to be a fool, but has done some impressive things.
@@jazhanay19 ya thats why I go by the books because the show seems a bit dumber in that regard since Edmure only lost 200 men. 200 in an army tens of thousands strong.
I completely agree, Edmure was actually a pretty capable Lord/battle commander and his treatment by D & D becomes especially painfully when you take into account how in a world full of machiavellian schemers, who play their games of thrones without any care for the lives of the smallfolk, he is one of those few who would really go as far to risk his lands and even political position for their well being. I also have this notion that the Westerlands posses probably the second largest army behind the Reach, they are better trained and better equipped than the River lords...so how is that during the Dance you have the River lords and "The Lads" just completely destroying the armys of the Lannisters, Hightowers (second or maybe even the strongest house in the Reach) and the Stormlanders?? I never understood how they managed to do that..
A theory on why Robb didn’t tell Edmure his plan. Maybe robbs plan to let Tywin cross into the west was only formed after Stannis got control of the storm lands army. This was after Robb left riverrun
Dude he was the perfect candidate for a king In GOT : Related to 3 noble houses Mature Experience lordship , war and prison Own Riverrun , Twins and probably even Harrenhall
True. Ed's perhaps not the brightest, but he's very kind hearted and he tries to do his best always. + we mostly see him through Cat's eyes & she underestimates him, which influences Rob and others. He's also fairly young (around 25 I reckon) & inexperienced. Apart from that, his dad was good to Cat but underestimated and even possibly ignored Ed and Lysa too.
Worth mentioning that Robb literally told Edmure to 'defend his rear' ie: don't let him get attacked by another army, which is exactly what he did at the red fork. This is Robbs blunder.
I mean on Robbs plan a fanfic says it best hes trusting the blackfish to know the westerlands better than the westermen and expecting his lords to just allow the enemy to follow his flank
Basically everything the Starks and Tullys did apart from Robb capturing Jaime and freeing the siege of Riverrun was wrong. Apart from the things you mentioned, the biggest blunder was Robb becoming King and Riverlands joining his kingdom. Firstly Robb becoming king made it almost impossible for him to form alliance with other kings, and it makes no sense for Riverlands to be in a kingdom with north when they are surrounded by other kingdoms and separated from the north by the neck. I think however the choice of sending the forces at the twins to capture Harrenhall was the right one. Harrenhall is very strategically located, having it and the surrounding region means you hold the crossing of the trident. Robb was so much at the mercy of the freys because Tywin held the crossing till then. Also if Lannisters had not been able to make the alliance with the Tyrells, Tywin's army would be basically stuck between the Red fork to the west, Harrenhal to the east and Tyrell army to the south. It wouldn't have been so easy for him to go the KL without an alliance with the Tyrells who were stationed just south of the blackwater river. On a sidenote, imo Harrenhall is so well placed that Aegon the conqueror should have taken it as the capital and kept the entire riverlands and crownlands under his domain. I thinks that ultimately that what's going to happen in the end if we ever get dream of spring.
Book Edmure ruined robb's plans. He send army and won battle against Tywin but Robb wanted Tywin to enter in westerlands to trap him.Robb told Edmure to hold Riverrun, not going out for glory
The creators are rightly called out for many issues in the show during its later seasons, but their early work had plenty to criticise, and the show's portrayal of Edmure was definitely one of them :(
If robb puts forth an edmure to asha marriage while still having theon warded thats a pretty strong position. 10k reavers wrecking the westerlands sounds a lot better then having them in the north. U would still have theon as a marriage chip and even cat if need be. Honestly edmure gets screwed based off geography. Theres no way to defend the territitory without help. Ned could have sent him a warning in case things dont go well. Cat stupidly takes tyrion igniting the conflict. And now the elephant in the room lysa. How could edmure predict that his sister would kill her husband and ally and then not assist in a war for their survival. Lastly robb really should have explained his plans to edmure. If he did that he wouldnt have fought at the mills. Edmure isnt a genius by any means but most lords would not have succeeded in his position. But also army sizes the westerlands is 50k and riverlands 45k. Tywin just moved quicker
I mean he was screwed regardless. The Lannisters have 2-3 times more men than him. I agree his approach was not great, but let's not kid ourselves he was never defending the riverlands by himself.
Well, between the two people that staked a claim to the crown in the end 'council', He definitely has the most experience and, above all, the better story. So since that is the most important factor, he should logically have been king. beside, he is the only one of the two to want it, since the other prospect doesn't 'want' anymore.... Could you imagine a king without a drive or the ability to relate to others. Seems like an awful choice to me.
Yea I think edmure is that person that just always gets dogged on for that one stupid mistake they made and people just can’t let him live it down. His situation was bad from the start. The riverlands doesn’t have proper defenses so it would be less challenging for any offensive army to break through. I think he did the best he could with what advantages he had. The tactic of scorched earth should’ve been used by the riverlands but because of his culture and values he couldn’t fight a war like that.
no actually we see hes just bad he should have held the fords at the tumbelstone and red fork like the dance and when he does do that he pushes Tywin back, the rivers are the riverlands best defenses but heavily underutilized as they had no king
Maturity is realizing that the red wedding was inevitable anyway no matter who Robb married. Plus, it’s supposed to show that Tywin, the Freys and Boltons are scummy. That’s why nobody violated guest rights before for thousands of years. The show somehow twisted it into some kind of supreme intelligence because it’s pro-Tywin.
To be fair Tywin did his best distance himself from it so that most people think this was done on the Boltons and Freys own initiative. Tywin even in private with Tyrion is like "really most of it was there idea. I just gave them an assignment they chose how to do it."
Take that alongside the fact that Tywin was apparently displeased that Catelyn was killed because he wanted for a hostage and I think it implies that Red Wedding ended up.much bigger and bloodier than even Tywin truly wanted.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 I find it very funny that Roose Bolton somehow got Jaime in trouble by saying “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” before killing Robb. Because he didn’t anticipate Cat to resurrect and now Cat has a misconception that Jaime was the guy who planned the whole thing (while in fact, he was just busy getting his hand chopped off at that time).
Edmures story is to be finished in the books. The show did him dirty. He did make one big mistake in the book by chasing off the mountains crew. That was his only mistake if I’m remembering the books write. Been a while since I read them through.
Agreed. The show did Edmure dirty. He was nowhere near as incompetent in the book.
Plus, he also scammed Jaime by letting the Blackfish escape. He’s lowkey resourceful.
Book Edmure did nothing wrong, neither.
Book Edmure ruined robb's plans. He send army and won battle against Tywin but Robb wanted Tywin to enter in westerlands to trap him.Robb told Edmure to hold Riverrun, not going out for glory
@@michaelstark8720 True, but he didn't know Robb's plans. Granted, he probably shouldn't have exceeded his authority though.
It still blows my mind that a Red Wedding survivor was deemed to not have the best story of the council participants. Also, that said survivor had the most political experience and arguably had the best strength of character, but was still rejected. Benioff and Weiss are hacks. Great video Grease.
And the one who told him to shut up was Sansa, by the way.
A person who intentionally let her own brother (Rickon) die in a battle against Ramsay while omitting the war plan to Jon so that Jon might die and she gets the Winterfell throne. By the end of the series, Sansa is completely under the influence of Ramsay and Littlefinger. She has no right to be condescending to Edmure.
Thanks Ash I agrre with u
@@ashleyofnaath I mean the Bran thing is silly but I don’t know why that then translates to being captured at the read wedding as being a particular notable characteristic. A lot of riverlord and northern lords were captured.
Sansa telling Edmure to sit down is so weird and annoying. I actually thought the choice was clever, as he’s a good compromise candidate for King who will care for the small folk and nobles alike. He will rely on the new council for power, cementing the new order and he’s related to the families of the North and the Vale.
Agreed out of everyone there he has a decent claim to the throne. Given the sexism towards women it eliminates a lot of the women there. Who else could be king maybe Gendry, but he has zero qualifications, or Robin the same issue, The Dornish Prince that is not named. Like idk he seems like a medium choice no one would really dislike for king.
It was rude of her. He was her elder and should've shushed HER.
Plus, Riverrun is his houses castle which would likely be given to a potential younger son. It's in his best interest more than most to avoid war in Westeros, since just about every war ends with the Riverlands decimated.
Nothing weird about it bog standard cheap laugh that modern script writers rely on because they’re bad at their jobs.
And they wonder why no one cares if they’re on strike or not
How was Edmure a good compromise candidate? He spent most of the war captured, first by Jamie, then by the Freys, then by Jamie again. He had virtually no experience as a ruling lord, and was shown through out the show as petty and self absorbed. With that as his background what actually qualified him to be king of Westeros.
People kinda forgot that the red wedding is “his” wedding.
He was a victim, not a perpetrator though.
@carastone3473 Walder and House Frey were victimized first. It's Robb's fault the Red Wedding happens
@@Papakhan9636 He was in open rebellion to his liege lord and king, in no way is house Frey a victim.
@PaulCDehlinger Rob broke his oath to Walder, which incited his betrayal. It's like the Westerosi Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Only Robb is the bad Germans in this scenario. Robb was also in rebellion against the throne so you could argue that what what Walder did was lawful evil at worst.
He and Mace the Ace Tyrell kinda got the Gimli, Merry and Pippin treatment in the Peter Jackson trilogy in the game of thrones.
With Sansa, Bran, & Tyrion sniggering at him, if I were there I would’ve looked at em and said
“And wtf do you three find so funny? Do you all wanna compare who’s mistakes were more catastrophic since this whole thing began? Cause if that’s the case Ed is in last place!”
I didn’t like that cheap shot.
I hated how the show Starks were all about family for 5 seconds in the end, but when they have an actual surviving member of family left, they treat him like crap. Like WHY was there no scenes with him? First thing I would think of was the kids wondering ehy he didn't join them when they reclaimed Winterfell or asking about the Red Wedding, like anything? I hate how the show just warped itself amd characters to have Sansa and Arya be bigger amd better than they actually were. Instead of actually having them earn it.
@@Ashbrash1998
Look at what the Starks “all about family” did
- Sansa provoked Jon to declare war against Ramsay, knowing Jon was tired of fighting at that point and he will be the one who has to put his life on the line in the battlefield, not her.
- Sansa deliberately omitting her war plan from Jon, causing Jon to improvise against Ramsay that he almost died. She also chose to sacrifice Rickon, her own blood brother, just to win the war.
- Sansa didn’t keep her promise about keeping Jon’s true lineage a secret which caused Dany to become more paranoid and hostile to Jon.
- Bran made a creepy remark about the night Sansa got raped by Ramsay.
- Bran intentionally sit the whole conflict and let Dany genocide the civilians so that Jon could kill her and then Bran will usurp the throne from Jon.
- Arya, Sansa and Bran did nothing to prevent Jon from getting exiled.
- Sansa insulted Edmure, a victim who’s at the front row seat of the red wedding.
- Arya just left her family by the end of the story just to see what’s west of Westeros, instead of asking Bran (because you know, he has global CCTV visions).
Tywin made a mistake by not killing all of the Starks post-red wedding.
Edmure got the daemon treatment from HotD
I think that Edmure is a good tactical commander where if you give him an army, point him to the enemy, and tell him to kick their ass, he can do it relatively well. However, he's a poor strategic leader because Edmure doesn't have it in him to make hard decisions alone.
I see him as the reverse Randyll Tarly where Randyll is often described as one of the best soldiers and generals of Westeros but his actual record is not nearly as impressive. Meanwhile, Edmure is usually shown to be a fool, but has done some impressive things.
Edmure can claim to have beaten Tywin lannister in battle, which is more impressive considering The riverrun army was weaken from the war.
@@jazhanay19 ya and he did it outnumbered 2:1
@@quadeong7453 in the show, it was told as it was a minor battle over a mill.
But in the books, he fought a proper battle with thousands of troops.
@@jazhanay19 ya thats why I go by the books because the show seems a bit dumber in that regard since Edmure only lost 200 men. 200 in an army tens of thousands strong.
I completely agree, Edmure was actually a pretty capable Lord/battle commander and his treatment by D & D becomes especially painfully when you take into account how in a world full of machiavellian schemers, who play their games of thrones without any care for the lives of the smallfolk, he is one of those few who would really go as far to risk his lands and even political position for their well being.
I also have this notion that the Westerlands posses probably the second largest army behind the Reach, they are better trained and better equipped than the River lords...so how is that during the Dance you have the River lords and "The Lads" just completely destroying the armys of the Lannisters, Hightowers (second or maybe even the strongest house in the Reach) and the Stormlanders?? I never understood how they managed to do that..
A theory on why Robb didn’t tell Edmure his plan. Maybe robbs plan to let Tywin cross into the west was only formed after Stannis got control of the storm lands army. This was after Robb left riverrun
Dude he was the perfect candidate for a king In GOT :
Related to 3 noble houses
Mature
Experience lordship , war and prison
Own Riverrun , Twins and probably even Harrenhall
True. Ed's perhaps not the brightest, but he's very kind hearted and he tries to do his best always. + we mostly see him through Cat's eyes & she underestimates him, which influences Rob and others. He's also fairly young (around 25 I reckon) & inexperienced. Apart from that, his dad was good to Cat but underestimated and even possibly ignored Ed and Lysa too.
He was a much better character in the books. The show made him look kinda dumb.
edmure should marry daenerys
they both care deeply for the smallfolk
Worth mentioning that Robb literally told Edmure to 'defend his rear' ie: don't let him get attacked by another army, which is exactly what he did at the red fork. This is Robbs blunder.
Edmure, Eddard, Edric
The world really hate EDs
I mean on Robbs plan a fanfic says it best hes trusting the blackfish to know the westerlands better than the westermen and expecting his lords to just allow the enemy to follow his flank
He was barely in the show for anyone to hate him. And was never portrayed as someone to hate anyway.
He was certainly portrayed as an oaf or pathetic but I agree he was barely in it.
Basically everything the Starks and Tullys did apart from Robb capturing Jaime and freeing the siege of Riverrun was wrong. Apart from the things you mentioned, the biggest blunder was Robb becoming King and Riverlands joining his kingdom. Firstly Robb becoming king made it almost impossible for him to form alliance with other kings, and it makes no sense for Riverlands to be in a kingdom with north when they are surrounded by other kingdoms and separated from the north by the neck.
I think however the choice of sending the forces at the twins to capture Harrenhall was the right one. Harrenhall is very strategically located, having it and the surrounding region means you hold the crossing of the trident. Robb was so much at the mercy of the freys because Tywin held the crossing till then. Also if Lannisters had not been able to make the alliance with the Tyrells, Tywin's army would be basically stuck between the Red fork to the west, Harrenhal to the east and Tyrell army to the south. It wouldn't have been so easy for him to go the KL without an alliance with the Tyrells who were stationed just south of the blackwater river.
On a sidenote, imo Harrenhall is so well placed that Aegon the conqueror should have taken it as the capital and kept the entire riverlands and crownlands under his domain. I thinks that ultimately that what's going to happen in the end if we ever get dream of spring.
Finally another video on this subject, glad to see any pro-Chadmure content
It is known
Book Edmure ruined robb's plans. He send army and won battle against Tywin but Robb wanted Tywin to enter in westerlands to trap him.Robb told Edmure to hold Riverrun, not going out for glory
Edmure is the victim of his own conventional expectations. He is trapped in his role.
The creators are rightly called out for many issues in the show during its later seasons, but their early work had plenty to criticise, and the show's portrayal of Edmure was definitely one of them :(
idiots never get respect, that's pretty realistic imho
If robb puts forth an edmure to asha marriage while still having theon warded thats a pretty strong position. 10k reavers wrecking the westerlands sounds a lot better then having them in the north. U would still have theon as a marriage chip and even cat if need be. Honestly edmure gets screwed based off geography. Theres no way to defend the territitory without help. Ned could have sent him a warning in case things dont go well. Cat stupidly takes tyrion igniting the conflict. And now the elephant in the room lysa. How could edmure predict that his sister would kill her husband and ally and then not assist in a war for their survival. Lastly robb really should have explained his plans to edmure. If he did that he wouldnt have fought at the mills. Edmure isnt a genius by any means but most lords would not have succeeded in his position. But also army sizes the westerlands is 50k and riverlands 45k. Tywin just moved quicker
Based and edmure-pilled
What about the initial defense of the riverlands though that wasn't particularly impressive....
I mean he was screwed regardless. The Lannisters have 2-3 times more men than him. I agree his approach was not great, but let's not kid ourselves he was never defending the riverlands by himself.
Well, between the two people that staked a claim to the crown in the end 'council', He definitely has the most experience and, above all, the better story. So since that is the most important factor, he should logically have been king.
beside, he is the only one of the two to want it, since the other prospect doesn't 'want' anymore.... Could you imagine a king without a drive or the ability to relate to others. Seems like an awful choice to me.
Yea I think edmure is that person that just always gets dogged on for that one stupid mistake they made and people just can’t let him live it down. His situation was bad from the start. The riverlands doesn’t have proper defenses so it would be less challenging for any offensive army to break through. I think he did the best he could with what advantages he had. The tactic of scorched earth should’ve been used by the riverlands but because of his culture and values he couldn’t fight a war like that.
Plus Robb didn’t give him a proper instruction either. He just told Edmure some half-assed plan and expected Edmure to read his minds.
no actually we see hes just bad he should have held the fords at the tumbelstone and red fork like the dance and when he does do that he pushes Tywin back, the rivers are the riverlands best defenses but heavily underutilized as they had no king
Just like in basketball
Edmure is the goat
Endure did nothing wrong
Maturity is realizing that the red wedding was inevitable anyway no matter who Robb married. Plus, it’s supposed to show that Tywin, the Freys and Boltons are scummy. That’s why nobody violated guest rights before for thousands of years. The show somehow twisted it into some kind of supreme intelligence because it’s pro-Tywin.
To be fair Tywin did his best distance himself from it so that most people think this was done on the Boltons and Freys own initiative. Tywin even in private with Tyrion is like "really most of it was there idea. I just gave them an assignment they chose how to do it."
Take that alongside the fact that Tywin was apparently displeased that Catelyn was killed because he wanted for a hostage and I think it implies that Red Wedding ended up.much bigger and bloodier than even Tywin truly wanted.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 I find it very funny that Roose Bolton somehow got Jaime in trouble by saying “Jaime Lannister sends his regards” before killing Robb. Because he didn’t anticipate Cat to resurrect and now Cat has a misconception that Jaime was the guy who planned the whole thing (while in fact, he was just busy getting his hand chopped off at that time).
@@nont18411 id love if jaime pulls a "You've been through this before, with Tyrion" just to say your making assumptions again
Edmures story is to be finished in the books. The show did him dirty. He did make one big mistake in the book by chasing off the mountains crew. That was his only mistake if I’m remembering the books write. Been a while since I read them through.
So he stopped Tywin from crossing the red fork to go to the west is deemed his big mistake, but to me that is on Robb not Edmure.
It's kinda a mistake but also partly on Robb for not informing him of the plan he had in mind.
So it’s all Catelyns fault, I like it
Her’s and Robb’s yes lol
@@TheGreaseGoblins I knew you really did support house Frey. You try to play the impartial judge but you are not. GHOST T and I welcome you brother