The best part is that he doesn't just have shark repellent, he has repellent for several different types of sea creatures. You know, in case Aqua Man goes rogue.
If batman isn't a superhero, that would mean that Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Captain America, Falcon, Antman, Black Panther, Nick Fury, War Machine and many more aren't really superheroes... because they all use tech or external means of gaining powers but don't have real, natural powers.
I agree on Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Falcon. I agree on Nick Fury as well, but more because he fits neither "Super" nor "Hero". However, Black Panther has enhanced senses and agility at least, and is thus "super", And Cap has enhanced Strength, Speed, and a bunch of other things, so he's also "super". Not calling Iron Man and War Machine "Superheroes", even though their armors mimic superpowers .... well, ok, if accepting that would decrease the amount of people claiming Batman is a "superhero" ..... i''d gladly do that trade-off, and the same with Antman then, of course.
But calling iron man a superhero just because of his technology is like calling the driver of the first tank in history a superhero or a guy with machine gun in wild west would be considered a super if that's the case
The more interesting point about this is what the original poster made about external means vs natural powers. Why is a super soldier serum considered to make someone actually super and a suit of armor isn't? They are both external sources. Is it because the serum became a part of Captain America? What about the many Iron Man suits that were actually a part of his physiology? If the power has to be a part of you, that almost leads towards a philosophical debate about what makes you you? Interesting thought.
***** The difference superman, captain america, and spiderman have with superheroes such as iron man, batman, green arrow is that the first have superpowers while have the seconds super gadgets that mimic superpowers. Is like having a machine gun in colonial times. Those gadgets aren't part of themselves per se but rather part of the costume. For example Cyborg I would consider it a superhero with superpowers because he can't be separated from what makes him super.
I think he more meant that if someone classes batman as "not a superhero" because he has no powers then you have to class all those other heroes as well Also I think some of the people who don't consider batman a superhero would think that way because he is surrounded by all these godlike beings with extraordinary powers in the DC universe whereas in the Marvel universe like half the superheroes there don't have powers and that would pretty much make a superhero without powers the norm there but not in DC where the majority have superhuman abilities
in my opinion, the argument that Batman doesn't have powers doesn't hold up that much. Batman knows how to defeat every other hero in the DC universe. He knows 127 different martial arts. Once when a villain told him that he didn't have any powers, Batman's reply was "I have one: I never give up." He is at peak human condition. He has a lot of gadgets and skills. Superman has called him "The most dangerous man in the world" he may not have heat vision, laser eyes, or spidey-sense, but he doesn't need those abilities to measure up to the other heroes.Super or not, there is nothing mere about that mortal. Do not ever underestimate Batman.
Kirito Swords Yeah he knows 127 martial arts and know how to defeat every other super hero But Couldn’t a normal human know the same if he-her-it put the same time that batman put on them?
PrinceOJr like when recently in the comics Superman punched him in the face and he was hospitalized but if it was a normal human being that punch would have shattered a persons skull
I think the best definition for a Super-hero is: "Someone who possesses superpowers, or physical/mental abilities that are far beyond normal humans' abilities. He must have a super-hero identity which is a theme he goes by ,even if his real identity isn't secret, and must use his powers to try and protect people on a regular basis."
Here's the first video in our month of Batman aptly titled Bat-Tober: The Long Halloween! You can tell it's a Halloween video because the lighting is darker and spookier. Right? Right?!
That's so interesting, according to this video. Zorro, is a super hero. There are cowboy heroes in DC, so the Lone Ranger is a super hero. Like you stated, the context of where we see these figures is what helps our perception of whether we see them as super heroes or not. Now that heroes aren't limited to just comics, and are more prevalent in TV and movies, our definition of who is and isn't a super hero should be vastly different. Is Jesus a super hero in the same vain as Hercules or Thor? I think Harry Potter is indeed one. What about Sherlock Holmes, or even Detective Stabler from SVU? Frankenstein a misunderstood antihero? So many to consider.
I think you have to put the term "vigilante" on him first and foremost. Then you must add "costumed" because he wears a decorative motif. You can make a distinction between "costumed" and "uniformed", but that's a cultural thing. Next you need to determine "hero", "villain" and an "anti-hero". All do what they do for free, or would do it for free. A fireman or police officer could do a heroic act, but they aren't actual heroes, they are doing their job (hate me for that, but that how I see it). Now, the term "super" is the only part that is in question. Batman is most definitely a "heroic costumed vigilante" (I'm basing this on his no killing policy and not his "beat 'em up" days). As for super, I might agree with the idea that, even if he is human and only doing what is humanly possible, Superman is only doing what is Kryptonianly possible, so why call him a super hero when what he does is natural to his people under a yellow sun. the same with Martian Manhunter and Aquaman (Martianly and Atlantianly, respectively)? We probably should judge the superness based on the human norm, which Batman exceeds easily from his over-training on everything.
Spider-man is a superhero. He's still a vigilante as he doesn't operate within the confines of the law. The terms are not mutually exclusive. Most superheroes tend to be vigilantes and as such that's probably why we love them so. They break the mould, do what we would love to but cannot.
ninjapirate47 I never said a superhero can't be a vigilante. I merely stated that this is what you would categorize Batman, at least when he wasn't working for the Justice League when it was an arm of the US government or the United Nations (yeah, Maxwell Lord did some wiggling to get backing before Batman officially quit), or on an official assignment for GCPD or Scotland Yard or some such. And Spider-Man did at one time work as a non-vigilante when he was working with Tony Stark's SHIELD during the Civil War storyline. Like I said, these terms can be added or removed as needed. it's the term "super" that is really in question.
I don't agree with the firemen or cop aspects. Yes they're being paid, but it's still their choice to put the lives on the line to save people. Deadpool is a mercenary for money but he's still considered a hero. Luke Cage is a her for hire too.
It's Over 9000 Productions Like I said, it is my opinion that one can do heroic things and not be a hero. If it is your job to do it, then it takes the aspect of choice off the task. Just like you could do a heroic filing of a tax return, it might make you a hero to a small set of people. Again, it doesn't negate the act, it just negate the totality of the motivation. There are, in fact, volunteer firemen and public watch patrols who don't do this as a job. Maybe Scott can chime in or do a video on what makes a hero a hero?
Benjamin Abruzzo I think any person who goes out of their way to help people is hero, with or without pay. It's not like police officers don't help people when they're bills haven't been sent in yet or they're pay is being reduced or cut. You're still a police officer and can do just as much as any other officer with more pay. What I'm getting at is that, police officers and firemen whiles they do get paid to help people, they take these jobs from the goodness or righteousness is their hearts. Not every police officier comes home to his family at night.
I don't consider deadpool a superhero even when he's in the avengers. I think the 'HERO' part is more important than the 'SUPER'. deadpool may refer to himself as a superhero but he isn't strictly a hero. another aspect I want to bring out regarding superheroes that I think you guys missed is individuality: all superheroes have a lot of individuality, batman is THE batman, not A batman, doctor strange is THE sorcerer supreme but harry potter is A wizard and luke skywalker is treated as A jedi and not THE ONLY jedi. even green lantern and his marvel counterpart, nova have some of this: hal jordan was, for some time THE ONLY HUMAN lantern and nova was THE LAST of the nova core.
Some good points, and Peter Coogan does talk about how heroes do have individuality, but I see some flaws. Bruce Wayne is not the only Batman. He really is A Batman. Others have stepped in that role from Dick Grayson, Azrael, and even Commissioner Gordon. Doctor Strange is not THE Sorcerer Supreme, but indeed A Sorcerer Supreme, as each planet has their own. Like how Green Lantern is simply one of many Green Lanterns in a whole corps. So, individuality only goes so far depending on how far you stretch the term.
***** surely many have stepped onto the shoes of the batman but the identity of the batman trancends those people, you could say that the batman is a separate entity from bruce Wayne or dick grayson. doctor strange is still the one sorcerer supreme on earth so to us he FEELS like the only one arround and green lantern fights more on his own, or along other distinct superheroes who are otherwise unrelated, such as superman than the other lanterns, in other words he FEELS like his own person and no just a number more on the corps. again, it's about how we percive them, surely the X-men are all on the same group and share a costume but they have difering backgrounds and powers, would you think of them as superheroes if they all shared the exact same power? or would we see them more as some kind of super squad? I would say the latter. in short what I mean with the individuality is that their own human facet must be seen as a significant portion of the character's identity by the audience. we (or at least I) see hal as primarily himself and secondarily a lantern; Scott summers primarily as cyclops and later as an X-man, he could leave and he would still feel like cyclops to us on a superhero team the individuals define the group, on an army or taskforce the group defines the individuals, wich is why we treat the different iterations of a same group in different manners (like how the first class x-men feel so different from the later ones). PD: sorry for the long responce
I have to disagree on the individuality part. Aquaman and Wonder Woman belong to their own societies of people with very similar skillsets, abilities and cultural differences. They are essentially representatives of an entire civilization. What does that make the X-Men?
We know that Batman is a Hero, that's not in question, but is he Super? My opinion is yes. He's the only one in the core Justice League that doesn't use powers, and is regarded as the most dangerous member on the team. His intelligence and unlimited resources are more than a force to be reckoned with, and the shear fact that he doesn't have any powers makes it all the more impressive.
Oh? Then explain Justice League Doom, or to use the comic origin of the movie, JLA Tower of Babel. J'onn is himself one of the most dangerous people on Earth, what makes Bruce another is his tactical mind. Alone, he came up with ways to defeat all of the members of the Justice League
Also in the context of Dr. Strange I've never felt that he was a superhero and could never pinpoint why until this video. That's because I've always seen him as a wizard and felt that he was out of place in the marvel universe
In that sense, since 99% of superheroes aren't underneath the watch of the government, every one of them is a vigilante. The definition of a vigilante is very simple, in that it is just someone who undertakes the law themselves, rather than trusting average police to do the job. Spider-Man, The Flash, Captain Marvel, all of the X-Men, all have one thing in common (other than being superheroes) and that is that they take the law into their own hands to save people. It's why recently we've been getting a lot of comic/movies where superheroes are no longer being trusted. The closest person I can think of off the top of my head who really is a superhero, is Captain America. And even then we had the whole Civil War storyline in which he goes against the Superhero Registration Act and goes rogue.
Given his early origin in the late 1930s, I think it's worth pointing out that it seems like the Batman was initially intended to be more like a pulp hero, like The Shadow, The Spider, or The Crimson Avenger. But simply being in a comic book instead of a pulp magazine tilted him towards the Superman/superhero mold, and being among other superheroes (Justice Society/Justice League) tilted him even more towards the superhero mold. It was no mere coincidence that Superman and Batman both appeared in World's Finest Comics (initially in separate stories, but eventually as a long-running team-up).
No, Batman is not a superhero. He is a hero. Superheroes need powers. Supervillains are villains with powers. Villains are bad people with no powers. There are four: Superhero, Supervillian, Hero and Villain.
Nope. Having powers is not the only factor. You only need to tick enough boxes on the list, to get to a point where you qualify. Batman does. The Joker is a super villain too.
Kingpin. Theory deflated. Lex Luthor. Theory exploded. Then of course, we have Dr Doom (his sorcery was self-taught and not inherent, much like the "superhero" Dr Strange (albeit he had teachers). Theory tossed into a black hole. Batman has fought the likes of Darkseid and beaten the man of steel more than once. When did the term superhero come to be defined as "super-powered hero?" A cop is a hero, a fireman is a hero... is batman merely on this level? The man has performed superhuman feats and defeated super-powered beings while being a mortal man, using only his intellect & considerable resources. That's pretty damn superhero. Batman's a superhero. Tony Stark is a superhero. More importantly... the characters of his world consider him as such, both public & his teammates. If Superman considers Batman beyond that of a mortal man, who are you to argue?
ninjapirate47 _Kingpin. Theory deflated_ - Yup, he’s a super villain. His name isn’t “ Kingpin “… it’s Wilson Fisk. I’m calling that a different identity. _Lex Luthor. Theory exploded_ - Luthor is an interesting one. You could argue that his criminal persona is secret, but he is still simply known as Lex Luthor. I’d argue that while he’s just a rich guy in a suit… he’s a villain… one he puts on a purple and green suit of armour and starts fighting Superman… well. _Then of course, we have Dr Doom (his sorcery was self-taught and not inherent, much like the "superhero" Dr Strange (albeit he had teachers). Theory tossed into a black hole_ - Different outfit, different name, dedicate to evil. Super. _Batman has fought the likes of Darkseid and beaten the man of steel more than once_ - Which is a stretch to be fair. _When did the term superhero come to be defined as "super-powered hero?" A cop is a hero, a fireman is a hero... is batman merely on this level?_ - No he’s not on that level. We are specifically talking about “ superhero “ in the comic book genre. _The man has performed superhuman feats and defeated super-powered beings while being a mortal man, using only his intellect & considerable resources_ - Yup _That's pretty damn superhero_ - It is, but the “ super powered “ part isn’t the deciding factor anyway _Batman's a superhero. Tony Stark is a superhero. More importantly... the characters of his world consider him as such, both public & his teammates. If Superman considers Batman beyond that of a mortal man, who are you to argue_ - Yes, yes and … yes. I know you were agreeing I was just pointing out that there’s reasons all those characters are “ super “ heroes and villains… and it’s not just that others call them that. But yeah… that too.
SUPER wish you’d take audio from your episodes and put on a podcast so I can listen while driving and such! I am loving your stuff! Thanks for making these. Makes my day so much brighter. 😘😘😘
As Darkwing Duck once said, " Superpowers do not a Superhero make." My definition of a Superhero is one who can confront a situation that is not of the norm and can find away to neutralise it by any means necessary. Conventional or otherwise.
Hmm, that's interesting. What about street-level heroes like Jessica Jones? Not really world saving in the literal sense, but still a hero and still super.
NerdSync but Jessica jones is a superhero tho she is street level. Unlike someone like daredevil, he's JJ level, but isn't really super... well, unless you count enhanced senses. But I mean, those aren't as dramatic as super powers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
***** I think heroes limit there foes they don't really have and arch nemesis they just fight for what's right, but a superhero is the one with the secret identity and so forth, they have the arch nemesis that pops up from time to time. Also a Batman is a master strategist would has fought with the JLA and has encountered bigger threats like Darkseid
But for real I feel like most superheroes can be given a secondary title that applies to them. Batman - Vigilante Superman - Alien Dr.Strange - Wizard Green Arrow - Archer/Vigilante Black Widow - Spy etc. etc.
Real Life Superheroes such as Phoenix Jones and Master Legend are costumed crimefighters. Batman, Daredevil, Black Widow and Moon Knight are fictional ones who also qualify.
I believe a superhero is someone that puts themselves through selfless acts of heroism and believes his positive actions can bring in a positive effect.
It's less that what he knows isn't 'beyond human can learn' it's that he's a master class at nearly every thing a human can learn. It takes people a lifetime to learn one subject to the extent that Batman knows nearly all of them.
I am sorry Scott, but you are dead wrong on this one. Batman is not a superhero. Batman actually comes from a much older tradition of genre literature that is called "The Masked Avenger". This archetype has many versions in radio serials, novels, serial movies and in comic books dating much much earlier than first superhero ever emerged; like Phantom, The Shadow, Green Hornet, Lone Ranger, The Spirit, El Zorro etc. They wear masks and/or costumes, they have secret identities, they have special equipments, some have totems/symbols, they are almost highly trained individuals with extraordinary yet not supernatural talents like Zorro's swordsmanship skills, just like Batman. Batman is Just the first post-superhero version of the masked avenger archetype.
rasnac 1) I thought the Shadow was telepathic and possibly telekinetic. 2) I really think the reason the other masked avengers don't count as superheroes is that they don't live in super heroic settings. Consider DC's character Vigilante. He's the Lone Ranger in the DCU, and is a (third string at best) superhero. If Zorro's enemies were costumed villains and had greater scope, the line to superheroism would be crossed.
I take the word Superhero very literally. A Superhero is a Super Hero, someone that goes way beyond just a regular hero. Police, Soldiers and Firemen are generally what one calls a hero; also people who do what they do under extreme circumstances. So a Super Hero goes beyond that.
I agree with Stan Lee and Joe Quesada. A superhero is a being that can do things differently, in an extreme feat in an extreme manner, or method, Wether it be a "super power" or an incredible ability or skill, to accomplish a noble goal, usually the betterment and welfare of others. Batman, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Nightwing, etc. all count as super heroes in my book. In fact, these examples may be more super hero than those with powers, as they have a lot less of a chance to survive, yet they beat foes twice as mighty as themselves without giving up.
I've had this argument many times. Batman is a superhero. In my opinion, a superhero is an individual who fights for justice, the common good, and in defense of the people and those they love. Aside from a definition I have for myself it's also a bit of a meritocracy. In my personal opinion the Tmnt aren't SUPER heroes, but they're heroes. Batman despite being unpowered has beaten Superman in combat, evaded Darkseid's Omega beam, and has been able to do things with the human body and mind that is beyond that of even many of his powered colleagues. I think it's also worth noting that most people with powers consider Batman their equal, if not note him as being very dangerous (namely Superman who out right considers Batman the most threatening human mortal on Earth). But is I ask, is Green Lantern a superhero? Or Iron Man? Or even Thor? They are powered because of equipment. Take away Hal Jordan's (or John Stewart or Guy Gardner) ring, take away Tony's suit, take away Mojlnier they lose their unique powers. Granted Thor is still far and away stronger than humans, but without the hammer he's just a normal Asgardian. It's the feats and motivations that make a hero super.
Wednesday's Serial Thanks! I may do like an essay/editorial one of these days. But they're heroes because they defend NYC and fight for good. I don't qualify them as super because they are your run of the mill ninja. Above average yes, but not at the level of super. Granted I'm not super learned in the TMNT, but that's my opinion based on my knowledge.
Can't they be? Some are much stronger than others. Perform impressive feats and defend justice and good. I say that because I don't wanna undercut our first responders, but my definition and argument is based in the context of comic book characters.
Something I find interesting is that the internal DC universe (and I imagine the marvel universe) actually self references the term "super villain" as anyone who participates in meta crime. Could a super hero be anyone that participates in meta vigilantism?
When you can deadest other people WITH superpowers that are villains then you are a superhero ..and batman has been shown to deadest ALOT of them ..so heck yes batman IS a superhero and probably the most super of them all seeing as he doesn't have enhanced powers but he still kicks butt
I've been thinking about Batman's portrayal for a while, and DC would have us believe that Bruce Wayne is: 1- A black belt-level martial artist, in probably several forms of armed & unarmed combat 2- A genius-level criminologist 3- A genius crime scene investigator 4- A genius (this is getting old) designer of weapons, gadgets, vehicles, planes, espionage gear, etc. 5- A combat tactician of unparalleled skill & endurance 6- A highly skilled ninja As far as we know, a Navy SEALs team has an entire support team helping them on their missions; in DC, Batman's entire operation is being conducted by Bruce Wayne & supported Alfred Pennyworth, and Bruce always seems to have the right gadget on hand to save him from a sticky situation … let that sink in for a moment. If that doesn't make Bruce have the power of super-luck & endurance, I don't know what does.
is batman a superhero? in my oppinion... yes. why? take a look at his abilities: - master of 127!!! different kinds of martial arts - specialist in espionage, camouflage, stealth, disguise and multilingual - a scientist in forensic, chemistry and other areas (but has no doctor's degree xD) - a mechanic and software engineer - pretty high marksmanship with any kind of weapon - physical peak of an athlete and the list goes on. i guess in the comics he is mid 40, so the big question for me is... when did he learn all this stuff and how can he had time for learning it? i mean by day he's bruce wayne, leading a world wide concern, by night he's the cape crusader... and it takes years to learn/master/train just one of his skills... look at his vehicles for example. he has build them all by himself and it's pretty complex just to build a batmobile with the gadgets... and there's the batplane, bat-submarine and so on. so you need a really huge knowledge about mechanics just in this case. so for a normal person it's impossible to gain all this abilities... that's why batman is a superhero... more or less... and for me, one of the most unrealistic characters in a comic.... i know, it's really strange talking about "realism" in comics, but i think you know what i mean :D
By your and DC Comics' standards, Batman is a superhero, because he has impossible intelligence, coordination and endurance, to learn all those skills and build all those gadgets himself. His exaggerated abilities came from a misguided attempt at "realism," to make him an anti-Superman.
Well, to be fair, some of the things he knows can be learned in high school and college, the rest can be explained by the world traveling he does between when he leaves school and comes back to Gotham, which if I recall correctly, lasted about ten years. On the Bat family arsenal, remember, most, if not all of it was developed and built by Lucius Fox, not Bruce.
I don't doubt that lol, but curiosity trumps all, right… or does laziness trump all? Eh, one of the two. (Also please don't take my name as an insult, it was just a bad joke I made :)
I think maybe there are some other factors we are not considering like helping people under your own conditions, luke skywalker for example is a jedi, part of a group that follows the same rules, and harry potter who also follows the rules of the magic council. Every other hero at least breaks a rule made by our constitution.
I feel as if Batman and Iron Man's gadgets are their superpowers. It can be argued that armour and weapons can be given to anyone, but so can Captain America's super serum, the spider that bit Spiderman, Doctor Strange's magical training, whatever mess happened to the Flash, the chemicals that got in DareDevil's eyes (and the TMNT). Even Mutants who are born with powers are just regular humans with some added genes.Also Thor, Wonder Woman, Superman & Groot are just different species. It is only because of their situations/locations that they are 'super'.
Superhero are those individual that can do "super" thing, things that we the "normal" people can't, the everyday person. just putting this out there, those people like Police and firefighters are heros but not super. the "super" in superhero means that they are something extra or extraordinary like for superman of thor they have "super"powers and for like Daredevil and Batman also Hawkeye and Ant-Man they have something extra. For Batman and hawkeye they trained almost all there life to be beyond human almost to the point of Caption America, for daredevil he trained with a weakness or disadvantaged for many and he made it his greatest weapon, and then for antman, iron man and the atom they got there "beyond humans capability" (BHC) with suit which give them an edge over other and there "superpowers." Even tho any person can really wear a suit they might not be like iron man, maybe not at first. What make this non power hero's SUPER is that they have the ability to go (BHC) and beyond the normal standards. the normal hero would save life's by going in to burning buildings a superhero would all the things a hero would do but go above and beyond like try and to save people from 5 burning buildings or a plane going down or even stop villain that are to much for the cops to handle like the joker. I also think the hero is define as a "super" on what he does as a hero or who his villain is or even if we the people think they're (BHC) or above us not lawful but by abilitys.
I totally agree with you man. It is just like the Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D moto " Not all heroes are super". That's why the show is a spy action show and not a superhero show. And maybe tha's why people like Batman so much. He is an example that a mere human with enough training can be considered equal (if not better) to Gods and become a SUPERhero.
I think I know y we won't call Luke Skywalker or Harry potter superheros, its maybe because there are other peoples in there uni that have the same abilities like others can be jedis or there's a lot of wizard that can do the same like Harry. Lets talk about the legion of Korra, in the show many people can bend elements but 1 stands out above all else Korra the avatar, she do heroic things and is above and beyond anyone else in here uni witch could make her a superhero.
Well yes, but in this case the same applies to the comic-book universes: many people can be like Iron Man or Captain America or even Superman, and in fact many people are
for me there's two different heroes: a vigilante: a normal human who fights crime (eg: green arrow, batman, black widow, hawkeye) a superhero: someone who has extraordinary non-human power eg aliens, mutants, meta-humans and people with advanced technology (eg: superman, wolverine, the flash, iron man)
All of your vigilante examples all have advanced technology, which also qualifies them to be on your superhero example list. How advanced does the technology have to be for them to be a superhero? Where is the line?
Batman has said of himself in the animated series that his super power is that he never gives up. Also, I would argue that Batman has another super power (which the other JL members show appreciation for. That is his marvelous mind. Batman's ability to create and execute strategies that continually defeat much more powerful opponents by using their weaknesses against them should be considered his super power.
Simon Williamson I considered an anti-hero some that does villainous things but for a good cause. I don't think batman fits into this as he doesn't kill
Taha Hagar Superpowers, lightheartedness, hope, etc. Instead we get a superbly accomplished human with grim and dark characteristics by spreading fear. I do consider him a superhero, but he's a fairly often cited example for antiheroes.
+Carlos Rodriguez batman does have hope and lighthertdness. Anti-heroes kill which batman doesn't. And yes he uses fear but only on bad guys even superman and flash has done that before
A Superhero is someone larger than life that you would look up to in my opinion. We call Firefighters "Heroes" but (except for the powers and secret identity part) they have a lot of similarities to super heroes, save people, are looked up to, inspire us, larger than life, tackle any threat, etc.
I think when you mentioned the Dark Knight universe, you REALLY hit the nail on the head. If I were to try and quantify and define "Super Hero", especially after watching this awesome informative video
So one aspect of a hero that was talked about in a more recent video( supermans costume design) was how in universe communities view him. Superman has been designed to feel open and familiar and like an ally. You know he is a super hero because of how the people know he is. Batman is viewed dramatically differently in world to police he is often a criminal and to many he could even be considered a terrorist because of his actions, but one of the most impressive things about batman is that you can't tell he doesn't have powers sometimes. In universe the entrance of batman is treated as equal or greater to any other hero. Even fellow heroes have been surprised to find out he is a normal dude. He has a mythos around him, in Gotham or out it doesn't matter if he has powers, it doesn't matter if you do, when he enters the fray you have already lost. And I feel that kind of identity is so powerful that it makes his actual abilities moot.
I believe Batman is a superhero because of his determination and the ability to get out of tight situations with his prep time and tech that help him defeat the bad guys and his multiple fighting styles to save the city
+Auram's Comics! A beautiful read! I love it and I desperately want the Court to appear in Ben Afleck's The Batman sequel (so the one AFTER the next one...)
Only to legalistic or statist people, as anarchists and libertarians call them. These speakers cynically define government as a violence monopoly. Real Life Superheroes such as Phoenix Jones and Capt. Jackson have been jailed for disorderly conduct (breaking up a street fight with pepper spray and MMA) and DWI, respectively, but others, such as Master Legend operate with reluctant police permission. The 1966 TV Batman of "Batman 66" is an honorary police detective. The Avengers and Justice League have been government sanctioned, so it's debatable but very unlikely that superheroes are criminals.
Good video. I thought you were going to discuss how Batman's technology grants him certain "abilities," and how that sorta extends to characters like Iron Man or Green Lantern who also don't have innate powers and instead use more advanced technology.
I dunno Jedi don't count. They are space-knights. ROM is a space-knight in the Marvel U and it doesn't feel like a superhero either. TBH a lot of characters DON"T feel like superheroes except when they join a superhero team. Ya know what DOES feel super-heroic. Doctor Who. I literally always think of The Doctor as a superhero. Always always saving the day with incredible brains, tech and even passive powers.
The Jedi are in some way similar to the Xmen. Both have powers since birth, use it to save people, are organized, have special technologies only at their disposition, and even have costumes but still the Jedi don't feel like superheroes.
***** I some sense, some boxes are more important than others. The Jedi fail to check on the "traditional superhero costume" that is probably one of the main requirements to be called superhero. For example Renee Montoya has done feats similar to many other superheroes like the bat family but she isn't considered one.
I like how you described words in a language as things that can change depending on it;s context and the culture of the people who use it. It reminds me of how the definition of the word trolling has changed from, sort of "jestering" to harassing over the past 10 years online.
I think that someone can be defined a superhero only if the context he lives in define im as one. For example, in America there's the Real Life Superhero Society (kind of, i don't remember exactly) which is members are just normal guys that does simply good actions wearing costumes, and i don't mean saving a school bus from falling in to a canyon, but just simplest things like carrying high people at home before they hurt themselves. And i think no one thinks that they are really superheroes, just volunteers. But if we take Kick-Ass as example, it is defined as a superhero in his world. Same in Watchmen: Rorschach, Hooded Justice, the Comedian (well, not exactly...), Silk Spectre; they all don't have superpowers, they wear costumes, they does good actions and they have secret identity, but, unlike the real world, they are defined as superheroes. It changes by the context. If we could go back in the past and talked about someone who could become a green superstrong giant and jump over the mountains, the people of that time would have called Hulk a god. Thor is the reverse case. If we could live in the Harry Potter's world and put a costume to a magician (even to a first year student) and make him do spells here and there, we could have two defintions for the same person: a superhero for the muggles and a rebel magician for the others. It's all about the point of view. (sorry for the bad english, i'm italian)
DancoR I'm a huge comic book fan and it irritates me that every time he is thrown in a VS situation his fans think he wins for one of two reasons. 1. Because he's Batman Or 2. If he has prep he can beat any character in existence
I think Quesada's explanation, combined with the suggestion that context matters, nails it. Batman is a superhero much the same way Lex Luthor is a supervillain. His intellect and his actions demonstrate that he's not a normal human. Not every superhero trait is magic, science experiments or genetics. Sometimes it's sheer will. Most superheroes are defined by an amalgam of traits. A guy with little willpower welding a Green Lantern ring isn't a superhero. A mutant who's only "ability" is that he looks different isn't a superhero. A woman with impenetrable skin and super strength who never, ever uses this ability for the betterment of humankind until her dying day isn't a superhero. But, a normal human with implausible will and intellect, and a superhuman bank account, is a superhero, because of those extraordinary things he is, the extraordinary things he does and the type of extraordinary world he lives in. It's a combination of triumphing over extraordinary, implausible circumstances, and the fact that your character lives in (or originated from) a universe populated with characters that also fit that definition that makes them a superhero. He or she can even qualify as a superhero if they're the only one in their universe, but their origins area clearly inspired by that kind of world. (e.g. The Cape, The Greatest American Hero, or any post-Cinematic Universe Marvel/DC movies and TV shows.)
Most people don't consider that the setting of a world may be a major factor in deciding what makes a superhero. You're only "super" in comparison to the people around you. Most superhero fiction is set in contemporary worlds with normal people walking around. Gandalf has lots of cool powers, but he's not *that* unique or any more heroic than other characters in Middle-Earth. He'd definitely be a superhero if he ran around New York.
I really like the Lantern Talk format you've developed. Oddly, I'm reminded of Andy Rooney from 60 Minutes. Having binged watched almost all of your videos its neat to see how your show has matured to this point. Good work.
I liked the divided explanation of super-hero - On the "hero" side, I think of it as someone who fights "evil", or assists "good" however they may manifest. But that opens up a huge mess, can we define what is good or bad with certainty? If I do something that someone considers bad, is it bad? I'd say that if you do something and you wholeheartedly believe it's a "good" deed, then you are some form of "hero". BUT, if you do something you believe to be good, but you KNOW that most people who would be affected consider it bad, and do it anyways, then, would it become an evil act?... I can't tell, I think that INTENTION is the biggest way to know, it works with lying too, if I tell you something that isn't true but I thought it to be true, did I lie? I think not, I was just... wrong (if there is something such as a certain truth) - Regarding the "super" part, Batman is a bit broken most of the times in comics, it is said that he learned and MASTER (key word) all existing martial arts, but many, if not all of them would require several years of training and practice to master, and unless he has some dbz hiperbolic time chamber and full access to the lazarus pit, bruce wayne simply wouldn't be able to achieve this in the time he is suposed to have done it, let alone learn all the science stuff he uses later on. So you could consider his extreme physical training that defies all logic a superpower. And even if we consider a more conceivable concept of batman, as a hero who is highly trained in martial arts but not to that over powered extent, it could still be considered "super". After all, no "ordinary" human could do what he does... technically I honestly don't know if I answered the question or not, buy it was fun just reflecting
You could also explain superhero by contrasting it with other concepts in the category "superhero" belongs to. Aristotle's view of definitions is that we need a genus and a differentia, and that all we need is enough differentia from other items in the genus to tell it apart. Wittgenstein's not needed for this. We all mentally go "Well, Batman's a superhero but he doesn't have superpowers" and forego family resemblance as a criterion. It's not as if we're squinting at some fuzzy attribute of superhero-ness and it imparts itself on us, or that we socially construct it. It's more like "superhero" is a category we put things in and it's fine if borderline cases exist, and that our minds abstract out some details and prioritize others at varying distances from the definition. It's not as if we have to explain every borderline case.
Batman is a superhero. His powers are: virtually unlimited wealth (that he didn't earn), genius-level IQ including deductive reasoning, creative design (the tools, gadgets, vehicles, etc.), superhuman perception/observation, a near or perfect photographic memory, superhuman willpower, determination, and dedication, the apparent lack of need of sleep (since he Bruce Waynes all day and Batmans all night) and his most important superpower - a huge mental break that won't let him get over the death of his parents. Seriously - it was like 20 / 30 / 40 / 80 years ago (depending on the timeline of the current comic). People lose their parents everyday. Some of them, sadly, in violent crimes. This has been going on since the beginning of humanity. And - to this day - exactly NONE of them have turned into Batman. There is some serious mental/emotional issues going on there. As the Joker said "He had a bad day". Seriously, Batman is mentally ill. But it is, obviously, a pretty high functioning form of mental illness - but the man is not well. And that -- his mental illness - is his superpower. Just like Deadpool's cancer.
a hero that fights and extrodanary fight with (optional) costume and secret identity and is described as super like powers or just super smart or strong done
I find it fun to discuss if Japanese Henshin heroes (like Sailor Moon, Ultraman, Kamen Rider and yes... Spider-man) are superheroes. They would seem to check all the boxes, costumes, pro-social missions, powers, but on some level they feel different, possibly because in Sailor Moon or even many incarnations of Super Sentai the emotional journey is largely uncoupled from the villain plot (At least till the very end of both an individual episode, and a larger arc). Anyway I'd say they are super heroes, but sometimes it's fun to debate.
i think the key ideas of being a super hero are that: 1. the hero transcends his/her current predicament as a normal mortal being and achieves something higher .the motiff of transcendence is something that every human aspires to.we all want to become something greater than what we already are and superheroes are a cultural manifestation of this inherent human desire. in this regard batman and even Robocop are the ideal exemplary superheroes because they both transcend their predicament of being a devastated orphan and slaughtered cop respectively ,and become higher beings through their suffering. 2.empathy . a superhero must have the ability to elicit empathy from the reader/film audience to the extent that they can relate to his everyday struggles and find humanity in his character despite him being physically superior.spider-man is a very good example in this context.any teenager growing up at one point or another could relate to his struggles and financial problems. bringing back robocop(maybe because i am an extreme fan of that guy),the audience definitely can't perceive what it's like to be a cyborg but they sure could empathise when they saw murphy struggle to deal with the loss of his treasured family life. it's a tragedy that resonates in everyone's mind. And finally.. 3.the superhero as a source of inspiration. this is the bare minimum criterion for designating a character as a superhero. He/she must be someone who is an ideal shining example to follow and also regarded as a benign righteous being who we can place our trust on.we know that superman,for all his immense strength and power will never once use it to gain undue advantage but rather use it to help all those who need it umbiased.likewise ,batman teaches us to never give up in our struggles but rather learn from our miatakes. robocop (yet again) is testament to the ideal image of a police officer who is bound to his duty of protecting the innocent despite having personally suffered so much. in conclusion ,i must state that harry potter and luke skywalker do not qualify as superheroea(although they certainly are commendable protagonists) based on my 3 criteria. And dr.strange isn't a superhero either.
a superhero is someone who can defeat a super villain (also with inherit powers or not). The bigger the crime to triump over, the more 'super' of a hero they are and vice versa. Like of how we see one who saves lives (firefighters and alike) the more we think how substantial of a life they save, the more we feel to call them as super-heroes of our times!
Great video Scott! I personally have a four part litmus test to define what makes a superhero; 1) A Superhero has a dual identity 2) A Superhero has powers (or tools, skills or abilities) that couldn't actually exist in our world 3) A Superhero uses those abilities altruistically 4) A Superhero wears an outlandish uniform or costume Which is very similar to the video. You can run any character through it and get good results; Superman passes all four where as The Shadow fails point 4 (His "costume" isn't outlandish, it's just a coat and scarf). Hercules passes points two and three but fails one and four. Batman passes all four of them but The Phantom fails point 1 (He has no dual identity, he's "Just" the Phantom).
...... I consider #1 to be unnecessary. ..... I really like how you define #2, though, even though it admittedly includes Batman .... but perhaps just barely depending on the writer.
Have you never seen the Dark Knight trilogy? That makes everything that Batman has EXTREMELY realistic. Oh, the fear gas might not, but everything else is. Batman COULD exist in the real world. Not exactly as he is in the comics or animated appearances, but it is possible.
@TheFantasticPaul the punisher is more like a vigilante rather then a superhero and heros for hires are just doing the right thing for the wrong reasons
When I first met my wife, I asked her if she liked superhero movies. She stated she liked Pirates [of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl], which had recently been in theaters. I responded stating, "That's not really a superhero movie." To which she replied with uncertainty, "Johnny Depp is a superhero." I thought her statement was hilarious. It does fit with this topic though as she would be the type of individual that would classify Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker as super heroes. Me, I classify those within comic book universes and comic book styled universes as superheroes provided they are extraordinary in power and ability, and that their actions weigh heavier in good than evil. Even if their goals do not invole helping others, but they somehow, even accidentally, help more (innocent) people than they harm (not including those that cause harm themselves) then they still are meeting requirements in my mind.
For me, what strongly adds to a character to be called Superhero, is the costume. Basically, the costume is a factor in calling a character Superhero. Just like when anyone who is not a professional visual artist draws a character. When he draws a figure with a Cape and/or trunks, people who see the drawing automatically call the picture a 'superhero' . Same thing when people people who are not into comics boos, when they are choosing a Halloween costume. They Identify suits with capes and/or trunks outside the pants as Superhero costumes. But when they see a costume of Luke (for example) they'll say its something else. Also with wizards costumes. Some people don't even consider Power Ranger costumes / Super Sentai costumes as Superhero costumes. (But Power Rangers / Super Sentai should be classified as super Heroes) Even in Toy store, Superhero action figures are the one in Capes and/or trunks. All I just wanna say is the costume plays a big part when most people look at superheroes. :)
Here's someone I'd like to hear your opinion on whether they are a superhero or not: Tarzan He seems to have all the necessary criteria; Tragic origin story (Parents die, leaving him abandoned in a hostile jungle) Alter-Ego (Tarzan/Lord John Greystoke) Superhuman abilities (Incredible strength, talks to animals, later books show him getting actual supernatural abilities.) Recurring Love Interest (Jane Porter) Iconic Look (Handsome white guy with long brown hair wearing a loincloth) Sidekick (Cheetha/Nkima) Peak popularity in the 1930s First published in periodical media Love the videos and hope to hear some feedback, looking forward to Batober. :-)
What makes one a superhero are the things that accomplish, what they overcome, the pain they endure (mental anguish too), and finally what they sacrifice to protect people. It's all of this that makes them superheroes not powers. Imagine what it takes to put that suit on night after night. A good example is the Lanterns- the ring only chooses superheroes and then gives them powers.
Surprised u didn't mention the term "genre theory" Scott. The overlapping ideas model u mention at the end is basically the same way we have to determine what movies and books fall within specific genres
I always felt that Batman was more of a vigilante. That isnt neccesarily a bad thing but Batman isnt "super" and closer to a vigilante or anti-hero than a hero. He is darker and more brutal than Supes and his methods focus on fear and beating thugs till they cant fight back. In fact without his no-kill rule he would be closer to The Punisher than to any classic superhero.
What if a superhero is judged on actions instead of characteristics? It's the way they do things that make them super rather than what they are. The word super means of the highest degree, power, etc. of an extreme or excessive degree. So when batman saves people dressed as a bat, that is an excessive degree, since saving someone is jeans and a tee shirt is just as heroic. This can apply to the other side of the law too. The joker kills people on an extreme scale and using extreme means, therefore he is a super villian, despite also having no powers.
The best definition I ever read came out of the back of a golden age comic. 'Superheroes are heroic characters with abilities or personas beyond those of normal men.' Basically: If you've got powers and you use them for good... all set even without a larger than life persona. If you have a larger than life persona and you use it for good... all set even without any superpowers. If you got both and you use it and you use either/ both of them for good, then you're good across the board.
It is easy to qualify this as simply a subjective argument and not give another thought to it. But I would say that Batman is a superhero objectively because, while he may not have "super powers", he has pushed himself to the peak of human potential, both physically and mentally. A very small handful can say this in the human world of either DC or Marvel and they either resort to villainy or to heroism. Batman is a superhero because no one else really can do what he does. Also, the fear that criminals have when they see him or hear that he may be near is a dead giveaway. His reputation precedes him anywhere he goes even though he may be "just a man". Those things qualify him as an objective superhero instead of blurring the lines between hero and super hero. Great video as usual Scott!
the criteria of a superhero, and demonstration of the rules, including, superheros that are superheros, non superheros with powers, and a few oddities that seem like they should be superheros but aren't, and when you think about it, it kind of works. Also covers super-villains. It's still 3 rules, but they're a bit more specific. -Crime fighting vigilante (Regardless of scale or frequency, beyond not being a one-off event) -must exist in a world in which some form of supernatural forces exist (this is why kickass isn't a superhero, and is just some guy) -they must have the willpower to go above and beyond what the average person can. Not ability, Willpower. The ability to persist against all odds rather than giving up. often this is demonstrated by ending some sort of conspiracy or plot, but not always, but often it is to the detriment of their day to day life, due to being so focused. Batman? Totally a superhero, he fights crime as a vigilante, superman exists in that world at a minimum, and he doesn't give up Superman? duh Luke Cage? vigilante? check, superpowers exist somewhere? check. Has the willpower to keep going?.... he struggles with it at times, but still persists when needed. check. Daredevil? Vigilante? Check, Superpowers exist somewhere? check, Has the willpower to keep going? Yep. The Punisher. Vigilante? yes. Superpowers exist somewhere in universe? yep. Has the willpower to keep going? definitely. A complicated one, Spiderman. Does he become become a superhero when he gets bit? No. Does he become a superhero when he first put on the mask? Nope. He doesn't become a superhero until his uncle ben dies. prior to that he is missing both the vigilante aspect, and the willpower aspect, but then, with great power comes great responsibility, and that takes care of both. That's when he becomes a superhero. It had nothing to do with his powers, or his mask. Lets test this with some not-superhero examples Harry Potter. Vigilante? not exactly. in school yes, as an adult, no. Superpowers exist somewhere? yes. Has the willpower to keep going? No. there are many times that they just give up for long periods of time. Each book takes place over the course of a YEAR, but a superhero would have had that stuff sorted out in a few weeks due to sheer persistence, even if it meant failing out of a class. The Power Rangers. Vigilante? That depends on if you accept fighting super-villains an not normal crime, or if working for zordon or whatever, counts as working as police. If they're a police force, they aren't a vigilante, and if they're not a vigilante if they don't fight normal crime, that still doesn't count. They clearly meet the other criteria though. So it depends on your definition of vigilante Kickass. Vigilante? Check. Superpowers exist in universe? NOPE, not a superhero. just a guy in a costume. all of them are. Mystery Men. Vigilante? Check. Superpowers exist in universe? yeah, they're just not that good. strong willpower? yep they've got that. Mystery Men are still superheros, Even if it is a parody. Jedi in the prequels. Vigilante? No, they have the authority of the senate. Jedi in the original trilogy. Vigilante? Not really. They're not fighting crime, They're fighting against the state. They are rebels. Jedi in episode 7. Vigilante? Yes, they fight against violent rebels but are not sanctioned by a government (technically it's anarchy in the reboot). Superpowers exist? Duh. Force of will? Yep. So the Jedi are superheros in episode 7, but not the others, and when you watch the movies, it sort of kind of fits. ---- Lets test some things that seems like it's a super hero but isn't In the MCU: The Agents of shield, From nick fury, to coulson, to black widow and hawkeye, to daisy-- Do superpowers exist? Yep, definitely. Do they have above average willpower? Hell yes. Are they Vigilantes? That is a RESOUNDING NO. S.H.I.E.L.D. Was created as a GOVERNMENT TASK FORCE. They are a state sanctioned police force. After it turns out it was infiltrated by hydra and everything goes sideways, They are still a government agency, but they are an agency gone rogue. They operate within the rules and guidelines of a government and bureaucracy, and therefor are NOT vigilantes. This is why Thor, Hulk, Ironman, Captain america, They're superheros, but Hawkeye and Black Widow, Not so much, and honestly, Hawkeye could kick ironman's ass given the right equipment, that's not a statement about how good they are. In the DCU Suicide Squad Do superpowers exist? Yes. do they have crazy willpower? hell yes. Are they Vigilantes? No, and not because they're villains doing good, but because they're a state sanctioned black-ops project. Technically they're like seal team 6, they're not vigilantes. this is why they feel weird. In DC, How about The JLA? Where does the funding come from? does bruce provide it, or is there federal money involved? if there's even a penny of money from a government, they're not vigilantes, I'm not 100% on this detail. In Marvel, How about Captain America? He was created by and for the army, so in that time, he wasn't a vigilante, but then later when he's frozen, thaws out, and is just... On his own, He's not tied to bureaucracy or the state, nor is he following any written laws, often violating them himself, and instead fights for HIS view of the american ideal, Which is quite frankly, not the american ideal anymore to everyone else in the world. He's holding them to a higher standard, after shield went under due to hydra, He stopped being a part of shield and is just his own thing now with the avengers, which are not answerable to anyone. So captain america being a superhero depends on the point in time. This is why the "first" captain america movie (The MCU one, not the old ones), didn't feel like a superhero movie, Because he was a super-soldier, and not a superhero, and it did just feel like a war movie. This is why. It was missing the "vigilante" part. in the MCU, Cap2 was his path to becoming a vigilante, and therefor a superhero, and from there on he's a superhero. Okay, so how about Villains? do villains ever count as superheros? Sometimes. that's how you get super-villains. A Super-villain is someone who technically meets the superhero criteria, but they're only a hero, a vigilante, In their own head, and/or the head of their followers. Magneto - Is a vigilante? technically. He'll stop criminals when he finds them, and he does attack corrupt and dangerous institutions. In his own head he is a vigilante. superpowers? Duh, persistence? yep. Magneto CAN be a hero. It depends on if he's being a dick at the time. He thinks he's a vigilante, but we see him as the criminal, That's what makes him a super-villain. Juggernaut - Is a vigilante? Hell no, he's just a criminal. Not even a super-villain The Joker - Is a vigilante? Only when he went up against redskull that one time. He's not really a super villain. He's an interesting character, but not a super villain. Mr Freeze - In his own head, he thinks himself a hero. He wants to save his love. He meets the other criteria hands down. He's a super-villain Wilson Fisk - Is he a vigilante? In the netflix series for daredevil at a minimum, In his own head he certainly thinks he is. Do superpowers exist? yeah. willpower? yeah. In his own head, Fisk is a hero. THAT is what makes him a super-villain This has more to do with the psychology of the character. but lets throw in one we'd expect to be a supervillain that fails. X-Men, Days of Future past (THE MOVIE, Not in the comics) - Bolivar Trask. He thinks himself a Hero. Saving the world from the danger that is mutants. He's the head of a private business, and not a government agency. Superpowers definitely exist. Does he personally have above-average willpower? No. Once he sees the mutants as people, once he sees the way his work can be abused, He stops. he abandons it. That's why the dystopian future is stopped, because he abandons the sentinels, He lacks the willpower to commit to being a super-villain. someone says "you're wrong about mutants" and he just folds up and says "yeah, alright, i'll stop"
I think the other trait missing from the video is how their heroic deeds are treated in the narrative. The superhero gets into lots of episodic adventures, and they don't need to mean _squat_ to the overarching narrative. They can be as short as a scene - or a single panel - or a line in exposition - and even if it's something that, in another genre, would be a story in and of itself, it doesn't have to have any lead-in or fallout, and can happen as many times as needed _just_ to establish that this is what the superhero does. Even if you want to tell a story about one adventure of a superhero, it's necessary to add another crime in the beginning whose plot purpose is entirely to establish the hero as a superhero - because a hero overcomes impossible odds and the story makes a big deal about it, but for a superhero it's "all in a day's work", and what happens in the story is just the one that's special.
I think it's easier to define a superhero in a comicbook because the medium informs the label. But what about film? It's something I've been thinking about lately, especially with the more unusual superhero movies. What makes Deadpool or Winter Soldier superhero movies, any more than say, Robocop? Aside from the Marvel label, what places it strictly in the superhero genre rather than action or fantasy? I'm especially curious to see how the Doctor Strange movie conforms or departs from tropes we would define as part of the superhero genre.
Also we can judge the heroes of other people, since their needs or loves are different in each individual; some may love Spiderman and other The Punisher, a superhero gets the title with our own believes of what a super is. “We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.” -Grant Morrison
I've always tell people who ask me that Batman's a Superhero because DC and Marvel themselves. In the 1960s DC and Marvel bought the trademark of superhero. So I always say that even if Batman doesn't have powers, he is still a superhero because DC said he is a superhero. And I back it up with stating how a superhero is someone in comics who fights crime in ways the police, the military, firefighters, etc. can't do.
I believe the fundamental way of which we learn words is through associations in context, most people have a sense of what words mean when using them, even without having a specific definition. In fact I think that's how people learn about words always, in every sense of the description. Definitions are a post hawk attempt to decribe what we're doing when we are using words both in conversation, and literature. A reason why the "dictionary fallacy" exists
I believe the answer to the question of who is a superhero lies in the concept of spectacle. The "super" in superhero doesn't refer to extraordinary abilities per se, but refers to doing your heroing in a super spectacular way. Sometimes these methods come by way of super powers, but not always. It feels a lot like pro wrestling. Larger than life personas, amazing feats to stun the mind! That is the "super" in superhero.
As a huge Batman fan I think that he is a superhero. He has no powers yet his fighting and deduction skills are above those of any normal human also his determination, will and his own drive, motivation, dedication and moral code are more complex than the average persons as well and that's what makes him a superhero to me. I feel that Batman can only fit into the realm of comic books because it seems out of reach for any real person in our world to reach the level he's at. For example it would take almost a lifetime for a single person to develop and master all of the combat, detective and other skills he has. Also for example take a professional fighter they start out top of their weight class, get to the top and are the best MMA fighter but after so many years even being in great physical shape they eventually have to quit and don't win as many fights because they can't take a punch like they used to or they fatigue a bit quicker etc. these types of things don't happen to Batman because first of all he's a fictional character and second he's got no powers but in his world he's above the average human
We all know Batman's TRUE superpower....
Bat shark repellent
HAHA! True!
No its money how else do you think he buys the repellant or maybe its..... Because he's Batman!!!!!!
The best part is that he doesn't just have shark repellent, he has repellent for several different types of sea creatures. You know, in case Aqua Man goes rogue.
yes.
@@Saieras He's always prepared, that Batman.
The cape?
Gotta be the cape.
Mr Sunday Movies And then they punch for a bit...
In the "spider man and superman are classic heroes" part I would have guessed the "secret identity with glasses"
Edna Mode has something to say about all that :3
No capes!
If batman isn't a superhero, that would mean that Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Captain America, Falcon, Antman, Black Panther, Nick Fury, War Machine and many more aren't really superheroes... because they all use tech or external means of gaining powers but don't have real, natural powers.
I agree on Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Falcon. I agree on Nick Fury as well, but more because he fits neither "Super" nor "Hero". However, Black Panther has enhanced senses and agility at least, and is thus "super", And Cap has enhanced Strength, Speed, and a bunch of other things, so he's also "super". Not calling Iron Man and War Machine "Superheroes", even though their armors mimic superpowers .... well, ok, if accepting that would decrease the amount of people claiming Batman is a "superhero" ..... i''d gladly do that trade-off, and the same with Antman then, of course.
But calling iron man a superhero just because of his technology is like calling the driver of the first tank in history a superhero or a guy with machine gun in wild west would be considered a super if that's the case
The more interesting point about this is what the original poster made about external means vs natural powers. Why is a super soldier serum considered to make someone actually super and a suit of armor isn't? They are both external sources. Is it because the serum became a part of Captain America? What about the many Iron Man suits that were actually a part of his physiology? If the power has to be a part of you, that almost leads towards a philosophical debate about what makes you you? Interesting thought.
*****
The difference superman, captain america, and spiderman have with superheroes such as iron man, batman, green arrow is that the first have superpowers while have the seconds super gadgets that mimic superpowers. Is like having a machine gun in colonial times. Those gadgets aren't part of themselves per se but rather part of the costume. For example Cyborg I would consider it a superhero with superpowers because he can't be separated from what makes him super.
I think he more meant that if someone classes batman as "not a superhero" because he has no powers then you have to class all those other heroes as well
Also I think some of the people who don't consider batman a superhero would think that way because he is surrounded by all these godlike beings with extraordinary powers in the DC universe whereas in the Marvel universe like half the superheroes there don't have powers and that would pretty much make a superhero without powers the norm there but not in DC where the majority have superhuman abilities
Anyone who can overcome impossible odds to accomplish good is definitely a superhero.
Very inspiring!
That is a pretty good qoute for qualifications
Batman is supposed to be a threat not a hero
No, let's be realistic lol. Then Martin Luther King Jr. Is a superhero.
Can Harry Potter, the Boy Who Lived, be a superhero based on that definition?
in my opinion, the argument that Batman doesn't have powers doesn't hold up that much. Batman knows how to defeat every other hero in the DC universe. He knows 127 different martial arts. Once when a villain told him that he didn't have any powers, Batman's reply was "I have one: I never give up." He is at peak human condition. He has a lot of gadgets and skills. Superman has called him "The most dangerous man in the world" he may not have heat vision, laser eyes, or spidey-sense, but he doesn't need those abilities to measure up to the other heroes.Super or not, there is nothing mere about that mortal. Do not ever underestimate Batman.
With paper, a sixth grader could solve that.
Flash and Superman could solve that much faster than Batman.
Kirito Swords
Yeah he knows 127 martial arts and know how to defeat every other super hero
But
Couldn’t a normal human know the same if he-her-it put the same time that batman put on them?
Gabe_N Actually the things that Batman has been through in his many years would probably kill an average human being.
PrinceOJr like when recently in the comics Superman punched him in the face and he was hospitalized but if it was a normal human being that punch would have shattered a persons skull
I think the best definition for a Super-hero is:
"Someone who possesses superpowers, or physical/mental abilities that are far beyond normal humans' abilities. He must have a super-hero identity which is a theme he goes by ,even if his real identity isn't secret, and must use his powers to try and protect people on a regular basis."
Here's the first video in our month of Batman aptly titled Bat-Tober: The Long Halloween! You can tell it's a Halloween video because the lighting is darker and spookier. Right?
Right?!
NerdSync should have uploaded this video on batman day
#batober is real
yes Batman does count he can do things no normal hooman can
id think so
That's so interesting, according to this video. Zorro, is a super hero. There are cowboy heroes in DC, so the Lone Ranger is a super hero. Like you stated, the context of where we see these figures is what helps our perception of whether we see them as super heroes or not. Now that heroes aren't limited to just comics, and are more prevalent in TV and movies, our definition of who is and isn't a super hero should be vastly different. Is Jesus a super hero in the same vain as Hercules or Thor? I think Harry Potter is indeed one. What about Sherlock Holmes, or even Detective Stabler from SVU? Frankenstein a misunderstood antihero? So many to consider.
Good mythical morning! Today we will answer the age old question, will it superhero?
Lets talk about that PARAPAMPAPAAPARAPARAAAPAPA PARAPAPAPAPAPAAAAAAAAAA
Nerdy Speech yusssssss. Freakin' Rhett and Link
Link immediately starts to gag
THESE CAPTAIN AMERICAS DONT TASTE GUD
Love this thread! Keep it going!
I think you have to put the term "vigilante" on him first and foremost. Then you must add "costumed" because he wears a decorative motif. You can make a distinction between "costumed" and "uniformed", but that's a cultural thing. Next you need to determine "hero", "villain" and an "anti-hero". All do what they do for free, or would do it for free. A fireman or police officer could do a heroic act, but they aren't actual heroes, they are doing their job (hate me for that, but that how I see it). Now, the term "super" is the only part that is in question. Batman is most definitely a "heroic costumed vigilante" (I'm basing this on his no killing policy and not his "beat 'em up" days).
As for super, I might agree with the idea that, even if he is human and only doing what is humanly possible, Superman is only doing what is Kryptonianly possible, so why call him a super hero when what he does is natural to his people under a yellow sun. the same with Martian Manhunter and Aquaman (Martianly and Atlantianly, respectively)? We probably should judge the superness based on the human norm, which Batman exceeds easily from his over-training on everything.
Spider-man is a superhero. He's still a vigilante as he doesn't operate within the confines of the law. The terms are not mutually exclusive. Most superheroes tend to be vigilantes and as such that's probably why we love them so. They break the mould, do what we would love to but cannot.
ninjapirate47 I never said a superhero can't be a vigilante. I merely stated that this is what you would categorize Batman, at least when he wasn't working for the Justice League when it was an arm of the US government or the United Nations (yeah, Maxwell Lord did some wiggling to get backing before Batman officially quit), or on an official assignment for GCPD or Scotland Yard or some such.
And Spider-Man did at one time work as a non-vigilante when he was working with Tony Stark's SHIELD during the Civil War storyline.
Like I said, these terms can be added or removed as needed. it's the term "super" that is really in question.
I don't agree with the firemen or cop aspects. Yes they're being paid, but it's still their choice to put the lives on the line to save people. Deadpool is a mercenary for money but he's still considered a hero. Luke Cage is a her for hire too.
It's Over 9000 Productions Like I said, it is my opinion that one can do heroic things and not be a hero. If it is your job to do it, then it takes the aspect of choice off the task. Just like you could do a heroic filing of a tax return, it might make you a hero to a small set of people.
Again, it doesn't negate the act, it just negate the totality of the motivation. There are, in fact, volunteer firemen and public watch patrols who don't do this as a job.
Maybe Scott can chime in or do a video on what makes a hero a hero?
Benjamin Abruzzo I think any person who goes out of their way to help people is hero, with or without pay. It's not like police officers don't help people when they're bills haven't been sent in yet or they're pay is being reduced or cut. You're still a police officer and can do just as much as any other officer with more pay.
What I'm getting at is that, police officers and firemen whiles they do get paid to help people, they take these jobs from the goodness or righteousness is their hearts. Not every police officier comes home to his family at night.
I don't consider deadpool a superhero even when he's in the avengers. I think the 'HERO' part is more important than the 'SUPER'. deadpool may refer to himself as a superhero but he isn't strictly a hero.
another aspect I want to bring out regarding superheroes that I think you guys missed is individuality: all superheroes have a lot of individuality, batman is THE batman, not A batman, doctor strange is THE sorcerer supreme but harry potter is A wizard and luke skywalker is treated as A jedi and not THE ONLY jedi.
even green lantern and his marvel counterpart, nova have some of this: hal jordan was, for some time THE ONLY HUMAN lantern and nova was THE LAST of the nova core.
Some good points, and Peter Coogan does talk about how heroes do have individuality, but I see some flaws. Bruce Wayne is not the only Batman. He really is A Batman. Others have stepped in that role from Dick Grayson, Azrael, and even Commissioner Gordon. Doctor Strange is not THE Sorcerer Supreme, but indeed A Sorcerer Supreme, as each planet has their own. Like how Green Lantern is simply one of many Green Lanterns in a whole corps. So, individuality only goes so far depending on how far you stretch the term.
He's what they call an anti-hero
***** surely many have stepped onto the shoes of the batman but the identity of the batman trancends those people, you could say that the batman is a separate entity from bruce Wayne or dick grayson. doctor strange is still the one sorcerer supreme on earth so to us he FEELS like the only one arround and green lantern fights more on his own, or along other distinct superheroes who are otherwise unrelated, such as superman than the other lanterns, in other words he FEELS like his own person and no just a number more on the corps.
again, it's about how we percive them, surely the X-men are all on the same group and share a costume but they have difering backgrounds and powers, would you think of them as superheroes if they all shared the exact same power? or would we see them more as some kind of super squad? I would say the latter.
in short what I mean with the individuality is that their own human facet must be seen as a significant portion of the character's identity by the audience. we (or at least I) see hal as primarily himself and secondarily a lantern; Scott summers primarily as cyclops and later as an X-man, he could leave and he would still feel like cyclops to us
on a superhero team the individuals define the group, on an army or taskforce the group defines the individuals, wich is why we treat the different iterations of a same group in different manners (like how the first class x-men feel so different from the later ones).
PD: sorry for the long responce
Tactic Prozone then he'd be a super anti-hero and not a superhero.
I have to disagree on the individuality part. Aquaman and Wonder Woman belong to their own societies of people with very similar skillsets, abilities and cultural differences. They are essentially representatives of an entire civilization. What does that make the X-Men?
Batman has a super power, it's called money
Then oprah winfrey is super powered
Popularity and being beloved.
@@lewisaino Indomitable Will(he never gives up) just like Spider-Man
😆😆 But lots of people have that.
Or are you saying that anyone can be a hero if they use their money for good?
We know that Batman is a Hero, that's not in question, but is he Super? My opinion is yes. He's the only one in the core Justice League that doesn't use powers, and is regarded as the most dangerous member on the team. His intelligence and unlimited resources are more than a force to be reckoned with, and the shear fact that he doesn't have any powers makes it all the more impressive.
He's not actually considered to be the most dangerous of the Justice League....
Superman would beg to differ.
PrankCaster Oh you mean the same superman that called Jonn Jonzz the most dangerous person on the planet?
PrankCaster The only people that consider Bruce to be the most dangerous of the Justice League members are the fans, even the writers don't.
Oh? Then explain Justice League Doom, or to use the comic origin of the movie, JLA Tower of Babel. J'onn is himself one of the most dangerous people on Earth, what makes Bruce another is his tactical mind. Alone, he came up with ways to defeat all of the members of the Justice League
Also in the context of Dr. Strange I've never felt that he was a superhero and could never pinpoint why until this video. That's because I've always seen him as a wizard and felt that he was out of place in the marvel universe
I always see him as a Vigilantie, not a superhero
are you on the GCPD?
Yes, I am, and I wish that that Bruce Wayne boy would be more philanthropic toward our justice system! ;)
He has both Super-Wealth and Super-Skills (Investigation & Combat), so he is super-human.
In that sense, since 99% of superheroes aren't underneath the watch of the government, every one of them is a vigilante. The definition of a vigilante is very simple, in that it is just someone who undertakes the law themselves, rather than trusting average police to do the job. Spider-Man, The Flash, Captain Marvel, all of the X-Men, all have one thing in common (other than being superheroes) and that is that they take the law into their own hands to save people. It's why recently we've been getting a lot of comic/movies where superheroes are no longer being trusted. The closest person I can think of off the top of my head who really is a superhero, is Captain America. And even then we had the whole Civil War storyline in which he goes against the Superhero Registration Act and goes rogue.
Yeah, I don't think vigilante and superhero are mutually exclusive terms. There's definitely an overlap.
Given his early origin in the late 1930s, I think it's worth pointing out that it seems like the Batman was initially intended to be more like a pulp hero, like The Shadow, The Spider, or The Crimson Avenger. But simply being in a comic book instead of a pulp magazine tilted him towards the Superman/superhero mold, and being among other superheroes (Justice Society/Justice League) tilted him even more towards the superhero mold. It was no mere coincidence that Superman and Batman both appeared in World's Finest Comics (initially in separate stories, but eventually as a long-running team-up).
i feel batman is a little overrated he is a cool character but some fans and writers will make u hate the guy
I feel the same way. I think batman is awesome, but his fanboys piss me off sometimes.
Agreed they make him way too over powered.
I agreed some fans and writers that writes Batman like a crazy asshole like Frank Miller makes him really unlikeable.
Why do you even like anything if the shitty fans can ruin it for you? Like, there's nothing in this world that doesn't have shitty fans.
def fans. I love batman tho, the character is amazing
No, Batman is not a superhero. He is a hero. Superheroes need powers.
Supervillains are villains with powers. Villains are bad people with no powers.
There are four:
Superhero, Supervillian, Hero and Villain.
Nope.
Having powers is not the only factor.
You only need to tick enough boxes on the list, to get to a point where you qualify.
Batman does.
The Joker is a super villain too.
Kingpin. Theory deflated. Lex Luthor. Theory exploded. Then of course, we have Dr Doom (his sorcery was self-taught and not inherent, much like the "superhero" Dr Strange (albeit he had teachers). Theory tossed into a black hole.
Batman has fought the likes of Darkseid and beaten the man of steel more than once.
When did the term superhero come to be defined as "super-powered hero?" A cop is a hero, a fireman is a hero... is batman merely on this level?
The man has performed superhuman feats and defeated super-powered beings while being a mortal man, using only his intellect & considerable resources.
That's pretty damn superhero.
Batman's a superhero. Tony Stark is a superhero. More importantly... the characters of his world consider him as such, both public & his teammates. If Superman considers Batman beyond that of a mortal man, who are you to argue?
ninjapirate47
_Kingpin. Theory deflated_
- Yup, he’s a super villain. His name isn’t “ Kingpin “… it’s Wilson Fisk. I’m calling that a different identity.
_Lex Luthor. Theory exploded_
- Luthor is an interesting one. You could argue that his criminal persona is secret, but he is still simply known as Lex Luthor. I’d argue that while he’s just a rich guy in a suit… he’s a villain… one he puts on a purple and green suit of armour and starts fighting Superman… well.
_Then of course, we have Dr Doom (his sorcery was self-taught and not inherent, much like the "superhero" Dr Strange (albeit he had teachers). Theory tossed into a black hole_
- Different outfit, different name, dedicate to evil. Super.
_Batman has fought the likes of Darkseid and beaten the man of steel more than once_
- Which is a stretch to be fair.
_When did the term superhero come to be defined as "super-powered hero?" A cop is a hero, a fireman is a hero... is batman merely on this level?_
- No he’s not on that level. We are specifically talking about “ superhero “ in the comic book genre.
_The man has performed superhuman feats and defeated super-powered beings while being a mortal man, using only his intellect & considerable resources_
- Yup
_That's pretty damn superhero_
- It is, but the “ super powered “ part isn’t the deciding factor anyway
_Batman's a superhero. Tony Stark is a superhero. More importantly... the characters of his world consider him as such, both public & his teammates. If Superman considers Batman beyond that of a mortal man, who are you to argue_
- Yes, yes and … yes.
I know you were agreeing I was just pointing out that there’s reasons all those characters are “ super “ heroes and villains… and it’s not just that others call them that.
But yeah… that too.
batman has faught with super villans also
he's not a superhero. he's a hero we deserve
no
Batman sucks.
@@bakedbeans5494 you clearly haven't watched The Dark Knight
@@JUSTICE971 Who cares?
SUPER wish you’d take audio from your episodes and put on a podcast so I can listen while driving and such! I am loving your stuff! Thanks for making these. Makes my day so much brighter. 😘😘😘
As Darkwing Duck once said, " Superpowers do not a Superhero make." My definition of a Superhero is one who can confront a situation that is not of the norm and can find away to neutralise it by any means necessary. Conventional or otherwise.
According to an old teacher of mine a Superhero is any hero who is involved with the saving of the world
Hmm, that's interesting. What about street-level heroes like Jessica Jones? Not really world saving in the literal sense, but still a hero and still super.
NerdSync but Jessica jones is a superhero tho she is street level. Unlike someone like daredevil, he's JJ level, but isn't really super... well, unless you count enhanced senses. But I mean, those aren't as dramatic as super powers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
***** I think heroes limit there foes they don't really have and arch nemesis they just fight for what's right, but a superhero is the one with the secret identity and so forth, they have the arch nemesis that pops up from time to time. Also a Batman is a master strategist would has fought with the JLA and has encountered bigger threats like Darkseid
I wouldn't call jessica jones a hero.
So like.. Doctor Doom?
If Batman isn't a superhero then neither is Superman. He's an alienm
But for real I feel like most superheroes can be given a secondary title that applies to them.
Batman - Vigilante
Superman - Alien
Dr.Strange - Wizard
Green Arrow - Archer/Vigilante
Black Widow - Spy
etc. etc.
You do have a point, Kar El does not have any superpower that any other kryptonian on earth cannot get
costumed crimefighter?
Now that's just silly.
Real Life Superheroes such as Phoenix Jones and Master Legend are costumed crimefighters. Batman, Daredevil, Black Widow and Moon Knight are fictional ones who also qualify.
I believe a superhero is someone that puts themselves through selfless acts of heroism and believes his positive actions can bring in a positive effect.
Batman is a hero. Not a superhero he can't do anything that a human can't learn to do. Flash and super man, are super heros
That's just my opinion tho
well he knows a few stuff that a human cant
Like how to make a long-lasting, aggrivating cliffhanger just by talking to a stupid chair.
+Blackguycomedygaming can't or doesn't? two completely different things
It's less that what he knows isn't 'beyond human can learn' it's that he's a master class at nearly every thing a human can learn. It takes people a lifetime to learn one subject to the extent that Batman knows nearly all of them.
I am sorry Scott, but you are dead wrong on this one. Batman is not a superhero. Batman actually comes from a much older tradition of genre literature that is called "The Masked Avenger". This archetype has many versions in radio serials, novels, serial movies and in comic books dating much much earlier than first superhero ever emerged; like Phantom, The Shadow, Green Hornet, Lone Ranger, The Spirit, El Zorro etc. They wear masks and/or costumes, they have secret identities, they have special equipments, some have totems/symbols, they are almost highly trained individuals with extraordinary yet not supernatural talents like Zorro's swordsmanship skills, just like Batman. Batman is Just the first post-superhero version of the masked avenger archetype.
rasnac 1) I thought the Shadow was telepathic and possibly telekinetic.
2) I really think the reason the other masked avengers don't count as superheroes is that they don't live in super heroic settings. Consider DC's character Vigilante. He's the Lone Ranger in the DCU, and is a (third string at best) superhero. If Zorro's enemies were costumed villains and had greater scope, the line to superheroism would be crossed.
He's not a hero, He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.
I take the word Superhero very literally. A Superhero is a Super Hero, someone that goes way beyond just a regular hero.
Police, Soldiers and Firemen are generally what one calls a hero; also people who do what they do under extreme circumstances. So a Super Hero goes beyond that.
I agree with Stan Lee and Joe Quesada. A superhero is a being that can do things differently, in an extreme feat in an extreme manner, or method, Wether it be a "super power" or an incredible ability or skill, to accomplish a noble goal, usually the betterment and welfare of others. Batman, Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Nightwing, etc. all count as super heroes in my book. In fact, these examples may be more super hero than those with powers, as they have a lot less of a chance to survive, yet they beat foes twice as mighty as themselves without giving up.
I've had this argument many times. Batman is a superhero. In my opinion, a superhero is an individual who fights for justice, the common good, and in defense of the people and those they love. Aside from a definition I have for myself it's also a bit of a meritocracy. In my personal opinion the Tmnt aren't SUPER heroes, but they're heroes. Batman despite being unpowered has beaten Superman in combat, evaded Darkseid's Omega beam, and has been able to do things with the human body and mind that is beyond that of even many of his powered colleagues. I think it's also worth noting that most people with powers consider Batman their equal, if not note him as being very dangerous (namely Superman who out right considers Batman the most threatening human mortal on Earth). But is I ask, is Green Lantern a superhero? Or Iron Man? Or even Thor? They are powered because of equipment. Take away Hal Jordan's (or John Stewart or Guy Gardner) ring, take away Tony's suit, take away Mojlnier they lose their unique powers. Granted Thor is still far and away stronger than humans, but without the hammer he's just a normal Asgardian. It's the feats and motivations that make a hero super.
I posted something similar.
I'm curious why you think the TMNT are heroes at all really, though. Great stuff.
Wednesday's Serial Thanks! I may do like an essay/editorial one of these days. But they're heroes because they defend NYC and fight for good. I don't qualify them as super because they are your run of the mill ninja. Above average yes, but not at the level of super. Granted I'm not super learned in the TMNT, but that's my opinion based on my knowledge.
By that definition police and firefighters are superheroes too.
Can't they be? Some are much stronger than others. Perform impressive feats and defend justice and good. I say that because I don't wanna undercut our first responders, but my definition and argument is based in the context of comic book characters.
I wish I could find a Hamilton reference but alas. I couldn't
8:50
You may be on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of master.
A month of Batman, Fuck Yeah!
Something I find interesting is that the internal DC universe (and I imagine the marvel universe) actually self references the term "super villain" as anyone who participates in meta crime. Could a super hero be anyone that participates in meta vigilantism?
When you can deadest other people WITH superpowers that are villains then you are a superhero ..and batman has been shown to deadest ALOT of them ..so heck yes batman IS a superhero and probably the most super of them all seeing as he doesn't have enhanced powers but he still kicks butt
Not deadest defeat darnit
+randal senior I was confused, but got the idea
That doesn't make you a superhero. I could beat a human that can breathe underwater.
I've been thinking about Batman's portrayal for a while, and DC would have us believe that Bruce Wayne is:
1- A black belt-level martial artist, in probably several forms of armed & unarmed combat
2- A genius-level criminologist
3- A genius crime scene investigator
4- A genius (this is getting old) designer of weapons, gadgets, vehicles, planes, espionage gear, etc.
5- A combat tactician of unparalleled skill & endurance
6- A highly skilled ninja
As far as we know, a Navy SEALs team has an entire support team helping them on their missions; in DC, Batman's entire operation is being conducted by Bruce Wayne & supported Alfred Pennyworth, and Bruce always seems to have the right gadget on hand to save him from a sticky situation … let that sink in for a moment.
If that doesn't make Bruce have the power of super-luck & endurance, I don't know what does.
*highly skilled samurai. Ninjas kill, Samurais fight with honor
Though he's got the sneakiness of a ninja. Samurais aren't really sneaky.
meh, bushido is quite lenient and historically wasn't followed all that much.
John Doe I get what your trying to say, but I just wanna point out that being a black belt just means you know all the basics
SemiOmni314 yea he's a master which means higher than 1st degree black belt
One thing for sure hes got the most coolest outfit and no other hero can beat it 🔥
Woooh! Batober!! My absolute favorite superhero with my birth month. Very happy :)
is batman a superhero? in my oppinion... yes.
why?
take a look at his abilities:
- master of 127!!! different kinds of martial arts
- specialist in espionage, camouflage, stealth, disguise and multilingual
- a scientist in forensic, chemistry and other areas (but has no doctor's degree xD)
- a mechanic and software engineer
- pretty high marksmanship with any kind of weapon
- physical peak of an athlete
and the list goes on.
i guess in the comics he is mid 40, so the big question for me is... when did he learn all this stuff and how can he had time for learning it? i mean by day he's bruce wayne, leading a world wide concern, by night he's the cape crusader...
and it takes years to learn/master/train just one of his skills...
look at his vehicles for example. he has build them all by himself and it's pretty complex just to build a batmobile with the gadgets... and there's the batplane, bat-submarine and so on. so you need a really huge knowledge about mechanics just in this case.
so for a normal person it's impossible to gain all this abilities... that's why batman is a superhero... more or less... and for me, one of the most unrealistic characters in a comic.... i know, it's really strange talking about "realism" in comics, but i think you know what i mean :D
Absolutely right!
By your and DC Comics' standards, Batman is a superhero, because he has impossible intelligence, coordination and endurance, to learn all those skills and build all those gadgets himself. His exaggerated abilities came from a misguided attempt at "realism," to make him an anti-Superman.
+Darla Lathan he sucks tbh. too generic, no powers but can kill godly characters with a rock. nothing clever about it at all.
Well, to be fair, some of the things he knows can be learned in high school and college, the rest can be explained by the world traveling he does between when he leaves school and comes back to Gotham, which if I recall correctly, lasted about ten years.
On the Bat family arsenal, remember, most, if not all of it was developed and built by Lucius Fox, not Bruce.
Phuong Nguyen Not that I dont believe you but where does the # 127 come from?
Scott, can you PLEASE do a podcast-isode? about why you chose "The Ace Convict" for your fake name? I'm sooooooooo curious.
Yeah, doesn't it involve a death threat
Yeah... not one of my finer high school moments...
I don't doubt that lol, but curiosity trumps all, right… or does laziness trump all? Eh, one of the two. (Also please don't take my name as an insult, it was just a bad joke I made :)
Hey Syncrenised Nerd, I think I remember you
I think maybe there are some other factors we are not considering like helping people under your own conditions, luke skywalker for example is a jedi, part of a group that follows the same rules, and harry potter who also follows the rules of the magic council. Every other hero at least breaks a rule made by our constitution.
I feel as if Batman and Iron Man's gadgets are their superpowers. It can be argued that armour and weapons can be given to anyone, but so can Captain America's super serum, the spider that bit Spiderman, Doctor Strange's magical training, whatever mess happened to the Flash, the chemicals that got in DareDevil's eyes (and the TMNT). Even Mutants who are born with powers are just regular humans with some added genes.Also Thor, Wonder Woman, Superman & Groot are just different species. It is only because of their situations/locations that they are 'super'.
Superhero are those individual that can do "super" thing, things that we the "normal" people can't, the everyday person. just putting this out there, those people like Police and firefighters are heros but not super. the "super" in superhero means that they are something extra or extraordinary like for superman of thor they have "super"powers and for like Daredevil and Batman also Hawkeye and Ant-Man they have something extra. For Batman and hawkeye they trained almost all there life to be beyond human almost to the point of Caption America, for daredevil he trained with a weakness or disadvantaged for many and he made it his greatest weapon, and then for antman, iron man and the atom they got there "beyond humans capability" (BHC) with suit which give them an edge over other and there "superpowers." Even tho any person can really wear a suit they might not be like iron man, maybe not at first. What make this non power hero's SUPER is that they have the ability to go (BHC) and beyond the normal standards. the normal hero would save life's by going in to burning buildings a superhero would all the things a hero would do but go above and beyond like try and to save people from 5 burning buildings or a plane going down or even stop villain that are to much for the cops to handle like the joker. I also think the hero is define as a "super" on what he does as a hero or who his villain is or even if we the people think they're (BHC) or above us not lawful but by abilitys.
if someone can edit this that be great
I totally agree with you man. It is just like the Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D moto " Not all heroes are super". That's why the show is a spy action show and not a superhero show. And maybe tha's why people like Batman so much. He is an example that a mere human with enough training can be considered equal (if not better) to Gods and become a SUPERhero.
I think I know y we won't call Luke Skywalker or Harry potter superheros, its maybe because there are other peoples in there uni that have the same abilities like others can be jedis or there's a lot of wizard that can do the same like Harry. Lets talk about the legion of Korra, in the show many people can bend elements but 1 stands out above all else Korra the avatar, she do heroic things and is above and beyond anyone else in here uni witch could make her a superhero.
Well yes, but in this case the same applies to the comic-book universes: many people can be like Iron Man or Captain America or even Superman, and in fact many people are
Yeah, we all know how normal I am. Ha. Ha
for me there's two different heroes:
a vigilante: a normal human who fights crime (eg: green arrow, batman, black widow, hawkeye)
a superhero: someone who has extraordinary non-human power eg aliens, mutants, meta-humans and people with advanced technology (eg: superman, wolverine, the flash, iron man)
what about civil leaders? OR those who better their community simply by interacting with it?
iron man has no powers though
All of your vigilante examples all have advanced technology, which also qualifies them to be on your superhero example list. How advanced does the technology have to be for them to be a superhero? Where is the line?
Batman has said of himself in the animated series that his super power is that he never gives up. Also, I would argue that Batman has another super power (which the other JL members show appreciation for. That is his marvelous mind. Batman's ability to create and execute strategies that continually defeat much more powerful opponents by using their weaknesses against them should be considered his super power.
Batman has super will and super determination. He's also super cool.
Without being "super" Batman to me is more hero than Superman.
Batman has always been an Anti-Hero to me.
Simon Williamson I considered an anti-hero some that does villainous things but for a good cause. I don't think batman fits into this as he doesn't kill
Simon Williamson how can he be an anti-hero when he hasn't done anything evil or bad
"antihero: a central character in a story, movie, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes."
I think this fits Batman fairly well.
Taha Hagar Superpowers, lightheartedness, hope, etc. Instead we get a superbly accomplished human with grim and dark characteristics by spreading fear. I do consider him a superhero, but he's a fairly often cited example for antiheroes.
+Carlos Rodriguez batman does have hope and lighthertdness. Anti-heroes kill which batman doesn't. And yes he uses fear but only on bad guys even superman and flash has done that before
A Superhero is someone larger than life that you would look up to in my opinion. We call Firefighters "Heroes" but (except for the powers and secret identity part) they have a lot of similarities to super heroes, save people, are looked up to, inspire us, larger than life, tackle any threat, etc.
I think when you mentioned the Dark Knight universe, you REALLY hit the nail on the head. If I were to try and quantify and define "Super Hero", especially after watching this awesome informative video
well Scott I'm glad you asked I think a superhero is moon knight the end
Agreed.
What makes a great Superhero? Dead parents usually do the trick
Just like Hush!
Wednesday's Serial doesn't count when they're the ones that kill them
Just like Doctor Doom!
So one aspect of a hero that was talked about in a more recent video( supermans costume design) was how in universe communities view him. Superman has been designed to feel open and familiar and like an ally. You know he is a super hero because of how the people know he is. Batman is viewed dramatically differently in world to police he is often a criminal and to many he could even be considered a terrorist because of his actions, but one of the most impressive things about batman is that you can't tell he doesn't have powers sometimes. In universe the entrance of batman is treated as equal or greater to any other hero. Even fellow heroes have been surprised to find out he is a normal dude. He has a mythos around him, in Gotham or out it doesn't matter if he has powers, it doesn't matter if you do, when he enters the fray you have already lost. And I feel that kind of identity is so powerful that it makes his actual abilities moot.
I believe Batman is a superhero because of his determination and the ability to get out of tight situations with his prep time and tech that help him defeat the bad guys and his multiple fighting styles to save the city
Scott, or anybody from NerdSync, what's your favorite Batman comic?
+Auram's Comics! A beautiful read! I love it and I desperately want the Court to appear in Ben Afleck's The Batman sequel (so the one AFTER the next one...)
No Man's Land or Endgame.
The Killing Joke.
Carlos Rodriguez under the hood, also the cult
Dark knight returns
hmmm but are all super heroes criminals? ....yes
Only to legalistic or statist people, as anarchists and libertarians call them. These speakers cynically define government as a violence monopoly. Real Life Superheroes such as Phoenix Jones and Capt. Jackson have been jailed for disorderly conduct (breaking up a street fight with pepper spray and MMA) and DWI, respectively, but others, such as Master Legend operate with reluctant police permission. The 1966 TV Batman of "Batman 66" is an honorary police detective. The Avengers and Justice League have been government sanctioned, so it's debatable but very unlikely that superheroes are criminals.
Good video. I thought you were going to discuss how Batman's technology grants him certain "abilities," and how that sorta extends to characters like Iron Man or Green Lantern who also don't have innate powers and instead use more advanced technology.
A superhero for me is anyone who's ready to risk his life to safe others and challenges himself to get better with his powers (super or not ).
batman has murdered, left for dead, and brutally beat people in the name of justice... that's not hero work that's vigilantism lol
I dunno Jedi don't count. They are space-knights. ROM is a space-knight in the Marvel U and it doesn't feel like a superhero either. TBH a lot of characters DON"T feel like superheroes except when they join a superhero team.
Ya know what DOES feel super-heroic. Doctor Who. I literally always think of The Doctor as a superhero. Always always saving the day with incredible brains, tech and even passive powers.
The doctor really feels like a superhero to me too. Interesting.
The Jedi are in some way similar to the Xmen. Both have powers since birth, use it to save people, are organized, have special technologies only at their disposition, and even have costumes but still the Jedi don't feel like superheroes.
It's interesting that the "feel" of a character has so much to do with whether we consider them one rather than if they check off boxes.
*****
I some sense, some boxes are more important than others. The Jedi fail to check on the "traditional superhero costume" that is probably one of the main requirements to be called superhero. For example Renee Montoya has done feats similar to many other superheroes like the bat family but she isn't considered one.
I like how you described words in a language as things that can change depending on it;s context and the culture of the people who use it. It reminds me of how the definition of the word trolling has changed from, sort of "jestering" to harassing over the past 10 years online.
I think that someone can be defined a superhero only if the context he lives in define im as one.
For example, in America there's the Real Life Superhero Society (kind of, i don't remember exactly) which is members are just normal guys that does simply good actions wearing costumes, and i don't mean saving a school bus from falling in to a canyon, but just simplest things like carrying high people at home before they hurt themselves. And i think no one thinks that they are really superheroes, just volunteers.
But if we take Kick-Ass as example, it is defined as a superhero in his world. Same in Watchmen: Rorschach, Hooded Justice, the Comedian (well, not exactly...), Silk Spectre; they all don't have superpowers, they wear costumes, they does good actions and they have secret identity, but, unlike the real world, they are defined as superheroes.
It changes by the context.
If we could go back in the past and talked about someone who could become a green superstrong giant and jump over the mountains, the people of that time would have called Hulk a god. Thor is the reverse case.
If we could live in the Harry Potter's world and put a costume to a magician (even to a first year student) and make him do spells here and there, we could have two defintions for the same person: a superhero for the muggles and a rebel magician for the others.
It's all about the point of view.
(sorry for the bad english, i'm italian)
Batman is overrated, i would like him more if his fans didn't hype him up so much
Paul Tafoya you're forgetting one major factor, he's batman!
Batman is the best thing that happened to comic books, so shut the fuck up
That's a pretty lame reason tbh. You shouldn't let others eagerness sway your opinion on something.
DancoR I'm a huge comic book fan and it irritates me that every time he is thrown in a VS situation his fans think he wins for one of two reasons.
1. Because he's Batman
Or
2. If he has prep he can beat any character in existence
I can see a fandom ruining batman for some. me Nightwing's my favorite hero.
“Are the scream protagonists
Horror villains or just villains?” Is the best way I can answer
I think Quesada's explanation, combined with the suggestion that context matters, nails it. Batman is a superhero much the same way Lex Luthor is a supervillain. His intellect and his actions demonstrate that he's not a normal human. Not every superhero trait is magic, science experiments or genetics. Sometimes it's sheer will. Most superheroes are defined by an amalgam of traits. A guy with little willpower welding a Green Lantern ring isn't a superhero. A mutant who's only "ability" is that he looks different isn't a superhero. A woman with impenetrable skin and super strength who never, ever uses this ability for the betterment of humankind until her dying day isn't a superhero. But, a normal human with implausible will and intellect, and a superhuman bank account, is a superhero, because of those extraordinary things he is, the extraordinary things he does and the type of extraordinary world he lives in. It's a combination of triumphing over extraordinary, implausible circumstances, and the fact that your character lives in (or originated from) a universe populated with characters that also fit that definition that makes them a superhero. He or she can even qualify as a superhero if they're the only one in their universe, but their origins area clearly inspired by that kind of world. (e.g. The Cape, The Greatest American Hero, or any post-Cinematic Universe Marvel/DC movies and TV shows.)
Most people don't consider that the setting of a world may be a major factor in deciding what makes a superhero.
You're only "super" in comparison to the people around you. Most superhero fiction is set in contemporary worlds with normal people walking around.
Gandalf has lots of cool powers, but he's not *that* unique or any more heroic than other characters in Middle-Earth. He'd definitely be a superhero if he ran around New York.
I really like the Lantern Talk format you've developed. Oddly, I'm reminded of Andy Rooney from 60 Minutes. Having binged watched almost all of your videos its neat to see how your show has matured to this point. Good work.
I liked the divided explanation of super-hero
- On the "hero" side, I think of it as someone who fights "evil", or assists "good" however they may manifest. But that opens up a huge mess, can we define what is good or bad with certainty? If I do something that someone considers bad, is it bad? I'd say that if you do something and you wholeheartedly believe it's a "good" deed, then you are some form of "hero". BUT, if you do something you believe to be good, but you KNOW that most people who would be affected consider it bad, and do it anyways, then, would it become an evil act?... I can't tell, I think that INTENTION is the biggest way to know, it works with lying too, if I tell you something that isn't true but I thought it to be true, did I lie? I think not, I was just... wrong (if there is something such as a certain truth)
- Regarding the "super" part, Batman is a bit broken most of the times in comics, it is said that he learned and MASTER (key word) all existing martial arts, but many, if not all of them would require several years of training and practice to master, and unless he has some dbz hiperbolic time chamber and full access to the lazarus pit, bruce wayne simply wouldn't be able to achieve this in the time he is suposed to have done it, let alone learn all the science stuff he uses later on. So you could consider his extreme physical training that defies all logic a superpower. And even if we consider a more conceivable concept of batman, as a hero who is highly trained in martial arts but not to that over powered extent, it could still be considered "super". After all, no "ordinary" human could do what he does... technically
I honestly don't know if I answered the question or not, buy it was fun just reflecting
You could also explain superhero by contrasting it with other concepts in the category "superhero" belongs to. Aristotle's view of definitions is that we need a genus and a differentia, and that all we need is enough differentia from other items in the genus to tell it apart. Wittgenstein's not needed for this. We all mentally go "Well, Batman's a superhero but he doesn't have superpowers" and forego family resemblance as a criterion. It's not as if we're squinting at some fuzzy attribute of superhero-ness and it imparts itself on us, or that we socially construct it. It's more like "superhero" is a category we put things in and it's fine if borderline cases exist, and that our minds abstract out some details and prioritize others at varying distances from the definition. It's not as if we have to explain every borderline case.
HOW DO YOU NOT HAVE 1,000,000 SUBSCRIBERS ALREADY YOUR GREAT,AMAZING,AND FUNNY
Batman is a superhero. His powers are: virtually unlimited wealth (that he didn't earn), genius-level IQ including deductive reasoning, creative design (the tools, gadgets, vehicles, etc.), superhuman perception/observation, a near or perfect photographic memory, superhuman willpower, determination, and dedication, the apparent lack of need of sleep (since he Bruce Waynes all day and Batmans all night) and his most important superpower - a huge mental break that won't let him get over the death of his parents.
Seriously - it was like 20 / 30 / 40 / 80 years ago (depending on the timeline of the current comic). People lose their parents everyday. Some of them, sadly, in violent crimes. This has been going on since the beginning of humanity. And - to this day - exactly NONE of them have turned into Batman. There is some serious mental/emotional issues going on there. As the Joker said "He had a bad day". Seriously, Batman is mentally ill. But it is, obviously, a pretty high functioning form of mental illness - but the man is not well. And that -- his mental illness - is his superpower. Just like Deadpool's cancer.
a hero that fights and extrodanary fight with (optional) costume and secret identity and is described as super like powers or just super smart or strong done
I find it fun to discuss if Japanese Henshin heroes (like Sailor Moon, Ultraman, Kamen Rider and yes... Spider-man) are superheroes. They would seem to check all the boxes, costumes, pro-social missions, powers, but on some level they feel different, possibly because in Sailor Moon or even many incarnations of Super Sentai the emotional journey is largely uncoupled from the villain plot (At least till the very end of both an individual episode, and a larger arc). Anyway I'd say they are super heroes, but sometimes it's fun to debate.
i think the key ideas of being a super hero are that:
1. the hero transcends his/her current predicament as a normal mortal being and achieves something higher .the motiff of transcendence is something that every human aspires to.we all want to become something greater than what we already are and superheroes are a cultural manifestation of this inherent human desire. in this regard batman and even Robocop are the ideal exemplary superheroes because they both transcend their predicament of being a devastated orphan and slaughtered cop respectively ,and become higher beings through their suffering.
2.empathy . a superhero must have the ability to elicit empathy from the reader/film audience to the extent that they can relate to his everyday struggles and find humanity in his character despite him being physically superior.spider-man is a very good example in this context.any teenager growing up at one point or another could relate to his struggles and financial problems. bringing back robocop(maybe because i am an extreme fan of that guy),the audience definitely can't perceive what it's like to be a cyborg but they sure could empathise when they saw murphy struggle to deal with the loss of his treasured family life. it's a tragedy that resonates in everyone's mind. And finally..
3.the superhero as a source of inspiration. this is the bare minimum criterion for designating a character as a superhero. He/she must be someone who is an ideal shining example to follow and also regarded as a benign righteous being who we can place our trust on.we know that superman,for all his immense strength and power will never once use it to gain undue advantage but rather use it to help all those who need it umbiased.likewise ,batman teaches us to never give up in our struggles but rather learn from our miatakes. robocop (yet again) is testament to the ideal image of a police officer who is bound to his duty of protecting the innocent despite having personally suffered so much.
in conclusion ,i must state that harry potter and luke skywalker do not qualify as superheroea(although they certainly are commendable protagonists) based on my 3 criteria. And dr.strange isn't a superhero either.
a superhero is someone who can defeat a super villain (also with inherit powers or not). The bigger the crime to triump over, the more 'super' of a hero they are and vice versa. Like of how we see one who saves lives (firefighters and alike) the more we think how substantial of a life they save, the more we feel to call them as super-heroes of our times!
Great video Scott!
I personally have a four part litmus test to define what makes a superhero;
1) A Superhero has a dual identity
2) A Superhero has powers (or tools, skills or abilities) that couldn't actually exist in our world
3) A Superhero uses those abilities altruistically
4) A Superhero wears an outlandish uniform or costume
Which is very similar to the video.
You can run any character through it and get good results; Superman passes all four where as The Shadow fails point 4 (His "costume" isn't outlandish, it's just a coat and scarf). Hercules passes points two and three but fails one and four. Batman passes all four of them but The Phantom fails point 1 (He has no dual identity, he's "Just" the Phantom).
...... I consider #1 to be unnecessary. ..... I really like how you define #2, though, even though it admittedly includes Batman .... but perhaps just barely depending on the writer.
R Cuthbert 2 is weird...what if someone with superhuman abilities did exist on earth and fit the other criteria? Would he NOT be a super hero.
Have you never seen the Dark Knight trilogy? That makes everything that Batman has EXTREMELY realistic. Oh, the fear gas might not, but everything else is. Batman COULD exist in the real world. Not exactly as he is in the comics or animated appearances, but it is possible.
I always thought a superhero was a person who dedicated his or her life to help people in need it. doesn't matter wether you have powers or not
So then what about Heroes-for-Hire or characters like The Punisher?
@TheFantasticPaul the punisher is more like a vigilante rather then a superhero and heros for hires are just doing the right thing for the wrong reasons
When I first met my wife, I asked her if she liked superhero movies. She stated she liked Pirates [of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl], which had recently been in theaters. I responded stating, "That's not really a superhero movie." To which she replied with uncertainty, "Johnny Depp is a superhero."
I thought her statement was hilarious. It does fit with this topic though as she would be the type of individual that would classify Harry Potter and Luke Skywalker as super heroes.
Me, I classify those within comic book universes and comic book styled universes as superheroes provided they are extraordinary in power and ability, and that their actions weigh heavier in good than evil. Even if their goals do not invole helping others, but they somehow, even accidentally, help more (innocent) people than they harm (not including those that cause harm themselves) then they still are meeting requirements in my mind.
For me, what strongly adds to a character to be called Superhero, is the costume. Basically, the costume is a factor in calling a character Superhero.
Just like when anyone who is not a professional visual artist draws a character. When he draws a figure with a Cape and/or trunks, people who see the drawing automatically call the picture a 'superhero' .
Same thing when people people who are not into comics boos, when they are choosing a Halloween costume. They Identify suits with capes and/or trunks outside the pants as Superhero costumes. But when they see a costume of Luke (for example) they'll say its something else. Also with wizards costumes.
Some people don't even consider Power Ranger costumes / Super Sentai costumes as Superhero costumes. (But Power Rangers / Super Sentai should be classified as super Heroes) Even in Toy store, Superhero action figures are the one in Capes and/or trunks.
All I just wanna say is the costume plays a big part when most people look at superheroes.
:)
Here's someone I'd like to hear your opinion on whether they are a superhero or not: Tarzan
He seems to have all the necessary criteria;
Tragic origin story (Parents die, leaving him abandoned in a hostile jungle)
Alter-Ego (Tarzan/Lord John Greystoke)
Superhuman abilities (Incredible strength, talks to animals, later books show him getting actual supernatural abilities.)
Recurring Love Interest (Jane Porter)
Iconic Look (Handsome white guy with long brown hair wearing a loincloth)
Sidekick (Cheetha/Nkima)
Peak popularity in the 1930s
First published in periodical media
Love the videos and hope to hear some feedback, looking forward to Batober. :-)
a person with special skills who will always help others in need
What makes one a superhero are the things that accomplish, what they overcome, the pain they endure (mental anguish too), and finally what they sacrifice to protect people. It's all of this that makes them superheroes not powers. Imagine what it takes to put that suit on night after night. A good example is the Lanterns- the ring only chooses superheroes and then gives them powers.
Nice touch turning down the lights for the episode. 👌
Surprised u didn't mention the term "genre theory" Scott. The overlapping ideas model u mention at the end is basically the same way we have to determine what movies and books fall within specific genres
i was constantly thinking about Wittgenstein or prototype theory through the video. fun thing you included that :D
I always felt that Batman was more of a vigilante. That isnt neccesarily a bad thing but Batman isnt "super" and closer to a vigilante or anti-hero than a hero. He is darker and more brutal than Supes and his methods focus on fear and beating thugs till they cant fight back. In fact without his no-kill rule he would be closer to The Punisher than to any classic superhero.
Perfect episode! I love when I learn something new.
What if a superhero is judged on actions instead of characteristics? It's the way they do things that make them super rather than what they are. The word super means of the highest degree, power, etc. of an extreme or excessive degree. So when batman saves people dressed as a bat, that is an excessive degree, since saving someone is jeans and a tee shirt is just as heroic. This can apply to the other side of the law too. The joker kills people on an extreme scale and using extreme means, therefore he is a super villian, despite also having no powers.
The best definition I ever read came out of the back of a golden age comic.
'Superheroes are heroic characters with abilities or personas beyond those of normal men.'
Basically:
If you've got powers and you use them for good... all set even without a larger than life persona.
If you have a larger than life persona and you use it for good... all set even without any superpowers.
If you got both and you use it and you use either/ both of them for good, then you're good across the board.
It is easy to qualify this as simply a subjective argument and not give another thought to it. But I would say that Batman is a superhero objectively because, while he may not have "super powers", he has pushed himself to the peak of human potential, both physically and mentally. A very small handful can say this in the human world of either DC or Marvel and they either resort to villainy or to heroism. Batman is a superhero because no one else really can do what he does. Also, the fear that criminals have when they see him or hear that he may be near is a dead giveaway. His reputation precedes him anywhere he goes even though he may be "just a man". Those things qualify him as an objective superhero instead of blurring the lines between hero and super hero. Great video as usual Scott!
the criteria of a superhero, and demonstration of the rules, including, superheros that are superheros, non superheros with powers, and a few oddities that seem like they should be superheros but aren't, and when you think about it, it kind of works. Also covers super-villains.
It's still 3 rules, but they're a bit more specific.
-Crime fighting vigilante (Regardless of scale or frequency, beyond not being a one-off event)
-must exist in a world in which some form of supernatural forces exist (this is why kickass isn't a superhero, and is just some guy)
-they must have the willpower to go above and beyond what the average person can. Not ability, Willpower. The ability to persist against all odds rather than giving up. often this is demonstrated by ending some sort of conspiracy or plot, but not always, but often it is to the detriment of their day to day life, due to being so focused.
Batman? Totally a superhero, he fights crime as a vigilante, superman exists in that world at a minimum, and he doesn't give up
Superman? duh
Luke Cage? vigilante? check, superpowers exist somewhere? check. Has the willpower to keep going?.... he struggles with it at times, but still persists when needed. check.
Daredevil? Vigilante? Check, Superpowers exist somewhere? check, Has the willpower to keep going? Yep.
The Punisher. Vigilante? yes. Superpowers exist somewhere in universe? yep. Has the willpower to keep going? definitely.
A complicated one,
Spiderman.
Does he become become a superhero when he gets bit? No. Does he become a superhero when he first put on the mask? Nope. He doesn't become a superhero until his uncle ben dies. prior to that he is missing both the vigilante aspect, and the willpower aspect, but then, with great power comes great responsibility, and that takes care of both. That's when he becomes a superhero. It had nothing to do with his powers, or his mask.
Lets test this with some not-superhero examples
Harry Potter. Vigilante? not exactly. in school yes, as an adult, no. Superpowers exist somewhere? yes. Has the willpower to keep going? No. there are many times that they just give up for long periods of time. Each book takes place over the course of a YEAR, but a superhero would have had that stuff sorted out in a few weeks due to sheer persistence, even if it meant failing out of a class.
The Power Rangers. Vigilante? That depends on if you accept fighting super-villains an not normal crime, or if working for zordon or whatever, counts as working as police. If they're a police force, they aren't a vigilante, and if they're not a vigilante if they don't fight normal crime, that still doesn't count. They clearly meet the other criteria though. So it depends on your definition of vigilante
Kickass. Vigilante? Check. Superpowers exist in universe? NOPE, not a superhero. just a guy in a costume. all of them are.
Mystery Men. Vigilante? Check. Superpowers exist in universe? yeah, they're just not that good. strong willpower? yep they've got that. Mystery Men are still superheros, Even if it is a parody.
Jedi in the prequels. Vigilante? No, they have the authority of the senate.
Jedi in the original trilogy. Vigilante? Not really. They're not fighting crime, They're fighting against the state. They are rebels.
Jedi in episode 7. Vigilante? Yes, they fight against violent rebels but are not sanctioned by a government (technically it's anarchy in the reboot). Superpowers exist? Duh. Force of will? Yep.
So the Jedi are superheros in episode 7, but not the others, and when you watch the movies, it sort of kind of fits.
----
Lets test some things that seems like it's a super hero but isn't
In the MCU:
The Agents of shield, From nick fury, to coulson, to black widow and hawkeye, to daisy--
Do superpowers exist? Yep, definitely.
Do they have above average willpower? Hell yes.
Are they Vigilantes? That is a RESOUNDING NO. S.H.I.E.L.D. Was created as a GOVERNMENT TASK FORCE. They are a state sanctioned police force. After it turns out it was infiltrated by hydra and everything goes sideways, They are still a government agency, but they are an agency gone rogue. They operate within the rules and guidelines of a government and bureaucracy, and therefor are NOT vigilantes. This is why Thor, Hulk, Ironman, Captain america, They're superheros, but Hawkeye and Black Widow, Not so much, and honestly, Hawkeye could kick ironman's ass given the right equipment, that's not a statement about how good they are.
In the DCU
Suicide Squad
Do superpowers exist? Yes.
do they have crazy willpower? hell yes.
Are they Vigilantes? No, and not because they're villains doing good, but because they're a state sanctioned black-ops project. Technically they're like seal team 6, they're not vigilantes. this is why they feel weird.
In DC, How about The JLA? Where does the funding come from? does bruce provide it, or is there federal money involved? if there's even a penny of money from a government, they're not vigilantes, I'm not 100% on this detail.
In Marvel, How about Captain America? He was created by and for the army, so in that time, he wasn't a vigilante, but then later when he's frozen, thaws out, and is just... On his own, He's not tied to bureaucracy or the state, nor is he following any written laws, often violating them himself, and instead fights for HIS view of the american ideal, Which is quite frankly, not the american ideal anymore to everyone else in the world. He's holding them to a higher standard, after shield went under due to hydra, He stopped being a part of shield and is just his own thing now with the avengers, which are not answerable to anyone. So captain america being a superhero depends on the point in time. This is why the "first" captain america movie (The MCU one, not the old ones), didn't feel like a superhero movie, Because he was a super-soldier, and not a superhero, and it did just feel like a war movie. This is why. It was missing the "vigilante" part. in the MCU, Cap2 was his path to becoming a vigilante, and therefor a superhero, and from there on he's a superhero.
Okay, so how about Villains? do villains ever count as superheros? Sometimes. that's how you get super-villains. A Super-villain is someone who technically meets the superhero criteria, but they're only a hero, a vigilante, In their own head, and/or the head of their followers.
Magneto - Is a vigilante? technically. He'll stop criminals when he finds them, and he does attack corrupt and dangerous institutions. In his own head he is a vigilante. superpowers? Duh, persistence? yep. Magneto CAN be a hero. It depends on if he's being a dick at the time. He thinks he's a vigilante, but we see him as the criminal, That's what makes him a super-villain.
Juggernaut - Is a vigilante? Hell no, he's just a criminal. Not even a super-villain
The Joker - Is a vigilante? Only when he went up against redskull that one time. He's not really a super villain. He's an interesting character, but not a super villain.
Mr Freeze - In his own head, he thinks himself a hero. He wants to save his love. He meets the other criteria hands down. He's a super-villain
Wilson Fisk - Is he a vigilante? In the netflix series for daredevil at a minimum, In his own head he certainly thinks he is. Do superpowers exist? yeah. willpower? yeah. In his own head, Fisk is a hero. THAT is what makes him a super-villain
This has more to do with the psychology of the character. but lets throw in one we'd expect to be a supervillain that fails.
X-Men, Days of Future past (THE MOVIE, Not in the comics) - Bolivar Trask. He thinks himself a Hero. Saving the world from the danger that is mutants. He's the head of a private business, and not a government agency. Superpowers definitely exist. Does he personally have above-average willpower? No. Once he sees the mutants as people, once he sees the way his work can be abused, He stops. he abandons it. That's why the dystopian future is stopped, because he abandons the sentinels, He lacks the willpower to commit to being a super-villain. someone says "you're wrong about mutants" and he just folds up and says "yeah, alright, i'll stop"
I think the other trait missing from the video is how their heroic deeds are treated in the narrative. The superhero gets into lots of episodic adventures, and they don't need to mean _squat_ to the overarching narrative. They can be as short as a scene - or a single panel - or a line in exposition - and even if it's something that, in another genre, would be a story in and of itself, it doesn't have to have any lead-in or fallout, and can happen as many times as needed _just_ to establish that this is what the superhero does. Even if you want to tell a story about one adventure of a superhero, it's necessary to add another crime in the beginning whose plot purpose is entirely to establish the hero as a superhero - because a hero overcomes impossible odds and the story makes a big deal about it, but for a superhero it's "all in a day's work", and what happens in the story is just the one that's special.
I think it's easier to define a superhero in a comicbook because the medium informs the label. But what about film? It's something I've been thinking about lately, especially with the more unusual superhero movies. What makes Deadpool or Winter Soldier superhero movies, any more than say, Robocop? Aside from the Marvel label, what places it strictly in the superhero genre rather than action or fantasy? I'm especially curious to see how the Doctor Strange movie conforms or departs from tropes we would define as part of the superhero genre.
I love these nerdsync videos it's something I have to look forward to every week
I also really enjoy the phone interviews as well.
Also we can judge the heroes of other people, since their needs or loves are different in each individual; some may love Spiderman and other The Punisher, a superhero gets the title with our own believes of what a super is.
“We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.” -Grant Morrison
OMG, I LOVE your "Green Lantern!"
>Talking about Wittgenstein in a video about Batman
This is why I like this channel.
I've always tell people who ask me that Batman's a Superhero because DC and Marvel themselves. In the 1960s DC and Marvel bought the trademark of superhero. So I always say that even if Batman doesn't have powers, he is still a superhero because DC said he is a superhero. And I back it up with stating how a superhero is someone in comics who fights crime in ways the police, the military, firefighters, etc. can't do.
I believe the fundamental way of which we learn words is through associations in context, most people have a sense of what words mean when using them, even without having a specific definition. In fact I think that's how people learn about words always, in every sense of the description. Definitions are a post hawk attempt to decribe what we're doing when we are using words both in conversation, and literature.
A reason why the "dictionary fallacy" exists
I believe the answer to the question of who is a superhero lies in the concept of spectacle. The "super" in superhero doesn't refer to extraordinary abilities per se, but refers to doing your heroing in a super spectacular way. Sometimes these methods come by way of super powers, but not always. It feels a lot like pro wrestling. Larger than life personas, amazing feats to stun the mind! That is the "super" in superhero.
As a huge Batman fan I think that he is a superhero. He has no powers yet his fighting and deduction skills are above those of any normal human also his determination, will and his own drive, motivation, dedication and moral code are more complex than the average persons as well and that's what makes him a superhero to me. I feel that Batman can only fit into the realm of comic books because it seems out of reach for any real person in our world to reach the level he's at. For example it would take almost a lifetime for a single person to develop and master all of the combat, detective and other skills he has. Also for example take a professional fighter they start out top of their weight class, get to the top and are the best MMA fighter but after so many years even being in great physical shape they eventually have to quit and don't win as many fights because they can't take a punch like they used to or they fatigue a bit quicker etc. these types of things don't happen to Batman because first of all he's a fictional character and second he's got no powers but in his world he's above the average human