Death of Gwen: Shake things up, keep Spider-man single and thus more relateable Clone Saga: Shake things up, make Spider-man single and thus more relateable One More Day: Shale things up, make Spider-man single and thus more relateable 2/3 of the times writers tried shaking things up and keep Spider-man single turned out to be some of the worst Spider-man stories ever
"2/3 of the times writers tried shaking things up and keep Spider-man single turned out to be some of the worst Spider-man stories ever" Because they tried to erase years of character development, regress Peter Parker to an immature jerk, and get rid of the supporting cast. As for Gwen, she was written poorly for years ... before they decided to kill her.
Let me put it this way in Renew your Vows the moment MJ dawns that red and white spider suit and calls herself Spinneret for the first time, and seeing Annie May become Spiderling renders One More Day and the Clone Saga miscarriage unnecessary because in one panel with one line of dialogue "You're no longer a solo act" you fixed everything you said was wrong with the idea, and now all defenses of One More Day and the infamous miscarrage come across as mean spirited excuses for being lazy and uncreative so let me ask what's the point of keeping either one around other then excuses for laziness and uncreativity?
The whole thing stemmed from a gross misconception of the Spider-Man character that continues to this day. It's the idea that Peter should never grow up, when in fact he'd been aging and growing since the beginning. He started as a high school student. He graduated high school and went to college. He went from bullied nerd to actually being fairly popular, including befriending the guy who'd bullied him in high school. He fell in love and saw that love die. He graduated college and started his post-graduate studies. He moved on to a new love, which ended up being on and off for many years. He left grad school for a time when balancing his life became too difficult, but eventually returned. He got married. Spider-Man/Peter Parker was all about growing up and change. It was never about always being in the same point in life. It's also funny that he couldn't be married, but someone thought it was OK to turn him into Tony Stark when the one consistent thing about him is that he's terrible with money and keeping a schedule.
Guess you haven’t read All New All Different Spider Man. Otto had left the body for quite a while, what was left was Parker Industry, so Peter took advantage of that and used all the money and resources to upgrade Spider Man, like created the Mark 4 Spider Armor.
I like the original draft of the clone saga. Scarlet Spider becoming the new official Spider-Man and Peter Parker becoming a family man would of been the perfect ending for Peter.
Isn't that what MC2 is all about? granted, Ben didn't became the new Spider-Man he died in MC2 but peter did get that happy ending, with now his Daughter becoming the new Spider-Girl
seriously, read the "Real" Clone Saga sometime it's much shorter and it actually does the story and both Peter and Ben justice plus it actually does use Harry as the real mastermind, along with that Norman Osborn clone
The Mossy Cobble There’s a mini-series called Spider-Man: The Clone Saga, it was made to show the original story that was planned for the clone saga. It’s only 6 issues long, and was released back in 2013
Ben Riley, a clone of Peter, the new spiderman, taking the mantle and responsibility so that the real one could live his life and raise a child with Mary Jane. How was that a bad idea.
It wasn't, it just would have upset fanboys who would complain that one was the clone. (Honestly, it doesn't matter much who is or isn't the clone. Both were alive and had feelings and memories)
It also would have opened the door to a Spider-Family. I mean, MJ and Pete having a baby and Ben being her Uncle Ben would be so cute and Peter could grow up a bit while Ben lives a more carefree life not tied down, you get the best of two worlds.
Yeah but there was one problem people had...the Peter they been following since 1976 was a clone and the real Peter would've been Ben except every time you would introduce Ben you'll have to explain that he's really Peter Parker even though he has blonde hair. You'll also wouldn't be able to interact with the Bugle and other characters even if he did come back as Peter because everyone in the Bugle would be asking where's Mary Jane Watson with the kid? Unless he told them his identity it wouldn't work. Plus all those years with the "clone" Parker would mean Kraven's Last Hunt was meaningless and bunch of other stories like Harry Osborn's death wouldn't have the same punch as it once did. Overall its a big mess.
No Harrys death could have been played up. The Real Pete was not there for his best friends death. This could have been used to sober the Carefree Spiderman if people were getting annoyed that he was a bit to unconnected to the past issues. Kraven's Last Hunt does not lose its meaning it takes on a different view but hardly meaningless.
The problem was having suggested that Peter was the clone in first place. Instead of revealing that Ben was the original and Peter was the clone, they should've established that Peter was the original way before and not have prolonged it. But the miscarriage was a pretty bad move, especially now that we have so many Spider-Men. Too many editors and a plot line with great possibilities poorly managed
Wait, so the idea of having a new person take on the Spiderman role was more offensive to the guy than having Peter and his beloved wife tragically loose a baby? WTH? Personally I'd like to see more superheroes with kids. Great video Scott. Love the skit at the beginning. What are you're thoughts on the latest developments in Civil War II?
"Personally I'd like to see more superheroes with kids." Like Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Henry Pym, Wasp/Janet Van Dyne, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Quicksilver, Crystal, Medusa, Black Bolt, and Wolverine? Marvel has many heroes with kids. How the writers treat them is another matter. I also like supervillains with kids. The Mystique-Rogue relationship is one of the main reasons that I became interested in the X-Men. Having a daughter with major problems, that you can't help resolve no matter how much you care about her.
A nice simple story of Ben Riley taking on the mantle of Spider- Man would have been so much better. I think a combination of fear of fan reaction and to many conflicting creators are what killed it. On a related note it is sad that Peter Parker as a character is not allowed to live an adult life Part of Spider-Man's appeal is that he is a normal guy with these amazing powers. Why is Peter having a wife and kid seen as such a bad thing when a big part of Spider-Man's appeal is that he has to balance real life with his super hero adventures?
AvatAR42420 Exactly. Its even easier to implement now, as Peter can be the seasoned, more responsible adult Spiderman, while Miles Morales is the more whimsical, irresponsible teenage Spider-Man
Real Scott should die somehow and Floor Scott should be the new host of Nerd Sync. Right that up imaginary writers, and make is as complicated and convoluted as possible
What I find interesting about this whole mess is the motivation behind its conception, the idea that they were "alienating" the readership by giving Peter relatable adult issues. There seems to be this impression that the readership remained the same age, no matter how much time had passed since Spider-Man's earlier years, when in truth, the readership was probably growing up with the writers, and indeed the character himself, so issues such as marriage, mortgages and kids would have been welcome, relatable problems for Spider-Man to deal, as the character was designed to be identifiable, and as the readership got older and teenage readers grew into adults, the subject matter of his personal life should change to reflect that. Perhaps if one of the writers at the time caught wind of this, we wouldn't have gotten the mess of a saga that we have, but then again, all the editorial mishaps would have still occurred, so perhaps we would just be trading one bad event for another, making this all inevitable in one way or another.
Exactly!!! What they could've done instead was create the "Ultimate" version of him then and make him younger...but that bright idea unfortunately wouldn't come until after the damage had been done already.
I'm with you 💯 on the potential of aging Peter and giving him more adult problems and responsibilities. I was 9-10 when this was happening, and even then I liked that aspect. It wasn't alienating at all... It made me think, _"Oh wow, Spider-Man is all grown up... How terrifying!"_ It also made him an adult to "look up to."
The beautifully written swan song to Aunt May was eventually reconned out, and May was alive and once again clueless about Peter being Spider-Man, therefore killing one of the only good moments of the whole mess. It wasn't even the last time this would happen, either - JMS's run had May find out that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, come to terms with it, and become a more active member of the supporting cast -- annnnd then One More Day once again retconned it so she was clueless again. Ultimate Spider-Man had a similar story as part of its own version of the Clone Saga -- which somewhat ironically was once of the best arcs in that series. May finds out, RAGES at Peter for lying to her all this time, and almost kicks him out of the house before she comes to terms with it. As this was an alternate universe, it was never retconned out -- just erased from existence.
Remember "Maximum Carnage?" That started something new in Spider-man comics that the Clone Saga made even worse: Continuing the story across multiple books (for example, The Amazing Spider-Man would be continued in The Spectacular Spider-Man which would continue in The Web of Spider-Man which continued into Spider-Man, which continued back into The Amazing Spider-Man). This made collecting comics at the time an infuriating proposal, not just because you had to buy four separate books, but because it was difficult to organize the comics into a coherent storyline. Even the official Marvel 30 Years of Amazing Spider-Man CD-ROM collection they sold a few years back is impossible to read during the mid-1990s thanks to these storylines, because the damn creative team would sometimes switch, new characters were introduced every issue, and you were only getting one in every four bits of the story. It was a nightmare and a lot of people at the time just stopped collecting BECAUSE of these marketing tactics.
For me "Maximum Carnage" and "Clone Saga", are the worst of classic Spider-man stories. BUT "Sins of the Past" and "Reign" are WAY worst. ("Brand New Day" it's no that bad if your a DC fan)
I know right, tie-ins can be ok, but spreading a story that thin is maddening!!!!! I really hope this is practiced less now or almost completely dropped.
Actually, I liked how the story kept going each week. The different stories - without interruption - of each comicbook were difficult to integrate and when they decided to have the story continue through all of them, it made the reading integration a lot easier for me.
Sorry this video was late. As you can see, it's a lot longer than normal. I also got lost in Marvel history and Clone Saga shenanigans. There's far more that couldn't make it into the video, so check out the sources in the description! Also, I love you. Keep it up!
I found something that might increase your opinion of Deadpool. Hamilton was in a deadpool comic. I'm internally freaking out and want to scream in caps lock. But I won't
True, but beyond the fact that comic fans probably learned their lesson after the clone saga, red arrow had the benefit of being the only roy we knew so it didn't come across as being a massive retconn.
The Clone Saga is what got me out of comics. I loved Spiderman and had been collecting all the runs at the time, and had for a decade. FOUR DIFFERENT TITTLES at the time. If they had simply kept the continuity and reduced Peter's role and slowly worked Ben in more I would haved loved it. Aunt May's death was touching and heartfelt, and SHOULD HAVE BEEN PERMANENT. I actually cried a little bit. I didn't so much mind Ben being the real Peter, but did not want the story of Peter and MJ to go away. There would have been great story telling opportunities in the two warheads running around, and it isn't like they did not have enough titles to tell those stories. The Amazing Spider-Man, Peter Parker the Spectacular Spiderman, Web of Spiderman, Spiderman.
THE CLONE SAGA IS WHAT GOT ME OUT OF COMICS TOO, which is good because I got out before all the cosmic/galactic/heroes in space stuff. Yes, Tim Kinrade, earthling, can relate to cosmic beings with the power of gods that ride around in galactic helicopters. Don't even get me started on multiple universes... it's gross in fiction and even more disgusting that people give legitimacy to idea that reality works that way. "Ah yes, sure there's more evidence for the existence of God and for a flat Earth.... but multiple universes is totally possible"
Maximum Carnage made me quit but the first ember of clone saga made me divorce Spidey Ironically I bought and read tons of Superman and Batman comics soon after but I stopped being A REGULAR - I now just selectively read one shots and/or trade paperbacks
I think they don’t know what to do with Spider-Man. Even now they killed Ultimate Peter Parker with a black Miles Morales, they don’t know what to do with Miles. They want change but who really likes Aunt May? She’s been in the hospital at death door million times. At the end of the clone saga nothing happened Aunt May came back Peter Parker is Spider-Man and Mary Jane isn’t pregnant. Even One-More Day ended Peter &MJ marriage and brought back Aunt May the most exciting comic was Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows with Peter MJ and his kid which could’ve been the most exciting comic event of the 90s and what’s crazier that it’s set alternate 90s universe!
Thanks so much! I can't promise the longer format is here to stay, but the desk certainly is! I like not having to stand for long periods of time. Haha
Fool! Aunt May was obviously the mastermind all along! She wanted nothing more than for Peter to just be a guy who takes care of his Aunt, and his worldsaving and girlfriends and child kept getting in the way of that. So she created a bunch of clones who all did a bunch of stuff which somehow ended in her getting a lifetime supply of condoms and life in the Orgy Friendly Retirement Home of Blackjack and Blow!
Many thanks! Scott worked long and hard on the new setup, and I have to agree with you. And I am not just saying that because I am contractually obligated to... really! haha. Thanks for watching! Dave "DJ" Johnson (Community Manager)
wait which scott is the real scott? are any of them the real scott? will this be resolved shortly or will we have to wait 2 years for a resolution to this plot where it will become horribly complicated and drawn out
and then we will have to end all but two clones and make one Edgy and have the other die by a villian that should be dead. Oh and then reboot the chanel once or twice and then do the same thing over again .
Clone saga could have been saved with them having the original set up except have Spider-Man and scarlet spider fight, then team up, then have scarlet spider die in battle after saving Spider-Man. Then Spider-Man and Mary Jane have the baby, it's a boy and they name him Benjamin Reily Parker and then that could have set up a future story of Peter's son becoming the new scarlet spider after his parents are killed and he wants to avenge their death
What you describe is a bit like what happens in Savage Dragon. The book's star from the '90s is a supporting character of a story about his son Malcolm Dragon these days (maybe grand-kids too). Plus, the creator/writer/artist/part-owner-of-the-publisher are all the same dude so the story won't fall prey to some marketing department.
@@luistorre669 they retconned the baby, never happened. But they made an alternate reality comics. in where peters daughter happened and het daughter took the mantle of Spider-Girl.
So what you're saying is that the Clone Saga was actually gonna be a good comic, but a series of bad choices and people leaving/quitting made it bad. So the inicial story was gonna be okay, but the execution and the decision to prolong it was bad.
This is totally on the editors' shoulders. Some of the outcomes would have been really great and while I love Peter it would have been fantastic to just have him retire with MJ. Of course they'd bring him back, but imagine Ben teaming up with Peter and his kid. So many missed opportunities.
Honestly they could have had their own little Spider Family like the Bat Family of DC. Ben replaces Peter for a while so Peter can raise his child and take part in his family until his daughter (if they went with the Spider-Girl angle) grows old enough to become a child hero and Peter comes out of retirement to train her and help her on her way so we have a Spiderman that can be darker, a Spiderman that can be friendlier, both these can appeal to adults and you have a kid Spiderman that is also female to appeal to kids and girls.
Justin Stovall Yeah though at least they seem to have that Spider Family thing going on now with Peter Parker, Miles, Spider Woman and I think Spider Gwen is int he main universe.
I would have liked to have see that too. Peter and Ben being like brothers and Peter being a dad would have been a cool idea. You get the best of both worlds with adult-life Peter and Ben who isn't tied down. It's stupid that people let the idea get so convoluted and get fixated on who was the "real" Peter or not? Who cares? They both were alive and had feelings and memories. I'd rather that outcome than how things are now. Not saying we don't have some good things now but I quit reading Spider-man after Sins Past (which never would have happened if this story didn't end in shitty deus ex machina Norman Osborn coming back)
I love the way they introduced Spider-woman (girl?) into that story. The awkwardness between her and Peter was great. I wish they would have kept her story going
Well, that's mostly because it managed to keep itself to one brief story arc that takes place over the course of a single day - not three goddamn years over multiple titles. Kinda ironic that Bendis, the guy in comics most notorious for padding shit out like mattress tampons, took one of the most notoriously overlong arcs in comics and remade it to fit into one trade.
This exact series is what drop Spider-Man from my number one as a kid to still one of my favorites but he went down quite a few pegs after this. I was born in the late 70s so to be told in my twenties at the Spider-Man that I've always known might have been a clone and not the real Peter Parker was a slap in the face. I still hung in there and try to read the comics to see where they were going but it just dragged on and by the time I started to accept it and the stories actually started to get good they killed Ben Riley, brought back Norman Osborn, and kidnap Peter and Mary Jane's child and turn it into a house cat? My Spidey fandom has never fully recovered since then...
Well, my personal opinions on the clone saga: I didn't read the clone saga from the beginning, but when I started reading it, in few books I learned Peter Parker wasn't the amazing spiderman, instead Ben Reilly was the spiderman, MJ was pregnant, but she was given an abortive by a shady nurse, aunt May was dead and Norman Osborn, the man who killed Gwen Stacy, was back. Back then, it felt to me way worse than Captain America saying "Hail Hydra". It felt like a Marvel attempt at breaking the spiderman so it's character could grow gone horribly wrong. After today's Nerd Sync episode, I feel more enlightened. As far as I understood, it was more like an accident than some attempt at spidersadism. Good work. BTW, please do another one like this on "Spider-Man: One More Day" Spiderman Storyline. I heard it's the only other spider-story close enough to be a disaster like "Clone Saga", but I never really understood why.
The baby was not aborted. She was kidnapped and died somehow off scene. Also, I hate One More Day because it made me hate Peter. I no longer buy the books. I bought Superior only because Peter "died".
deathsdoor07 They retconned it. When I first saw the comic, there was a scene showing some shady woman putting something into her coffee at a cafe. MJ went into labour after drinking the coffee, and later there was a very sad panel showing Peter hugging MJ and the shady woman, who was a nurse at the hospital, saying something like "It's done" to a mysterious figure, later revealed to be Norman Osborne. That's what I remember from memory, so it might be different from the comic itself, but I'm pretty sure the scene was meant to be an abortion before Marvel changed it once again to look like something else.
Marco Túlio Todeschini Coelho I read that too but after that the "nurse" had the baby with her and Norman got her on a boat. A year later, she comes back and tells Peter the baby was alive and Norman has her killed. Peter instead finds Aunt May and the baby is not mentioned again which pissed me off. Marvel or the writers lets the readers know that the baby is alive because they went back to the "nurse" and baby occasionally. Then the "nurse" dies and Aunt May is revealed to be alive but no baby. You would think Peter would do some more investigating to find out if the woman was crazy or if she was telling the truth. Nope, he does none of that shit.
deathsdoor07 Yeah, it was a pretty confusing and sad comic book saga. Back then, I pretty much assumed Mary Jane was given some abortion drug by the shady nurse on Osborne's orders, but now, I have to admit I have no idea what was the endgame plan of the "Clone Saga". Besides, I can't say my memory is the most reliable one.
oh can you do a video why *All-Star Batman* is considered one of the *worst Batman stories* ever while *All-Star Superman* is considered *one of the best?*
The short of it is that Grant Morrisson really understood Superman as a character and managed to sum him up in a modern parallel of the 12 Trials of Hercules, while Frank Miller basically told a Sin City story with a Batman skin.
"why All-Star Batman is considered one of the worst Batman stories " Because that version of Batman literally gets sexually aroused when killing people, and had sex with Black Canary next to burning corpses?
I was like, 13 when I read the saga issue by issue as it came out back in 1995 and it broke me. I was a huge Spiderman fan till that story. I had an uncle who gave me like, 30 or 40 years worth of back issues once and I would pour over those comics in awe. I felt like the Clone saga started off well, with nice nods to older Spidy stories, but then it just dropped the ball by outing the clone as the "real" Spiderman and the hero we've been following all these years as the clone. It might have bene a great idea on paper, but the way it was told just felt like it was shitting on Spidy history. I did like Kane though and thought he made a good, tragic villain.
What I liked about the Clone Saga was Mary Jane's sticking with Peter through thick and thin throughout the whole clone saga. She loved and supported him even when she thought he was a clone. She even showed guts when trying to get through to him when he was programmed to kill her. She had faith in Peter. I also liked Ben Reilly. I just thought he was a cool and likeable person, and I thought killing him off was terrible. He ended up being a brother to Peter.
To be honest, they should never have done the whole stupid thing to begin with. This was the beginning of the end of all the Spider-Man titles for me back in the day. I still cringe and get a headache at the mention of the Spider-Man Clone Saga. :(
I didn't even know the history of the clone saga, but when it came to the Norman Osborn part of the video I put my face between my hands in disgust and sighed in disbelief.
You're telling me that the "pEtEr MuSt StAy ReLaTaBlE" thing started with Romita Sr. Refusing to kill Aunt May...? I seriously am questioning Marvel's quality at this point.
At the risk of getting a lot of hate... I actually liked the clone saga. You could argue that it's overarching story was a mess but this was really the first story that allowed Peter to grow above and beyond the boundaries of his alter ego. We saw Peter become a husband, a man and a potential father creating a life for him then MJ and it provided some of the most powerful moments in his history. Even his relationship with Ben was well developed during the arc and when he died that actually had some impact with me.
Even though the clone saga was bad we can all agree that ben riley had the best spider-man suit and still does in my opinion 2nd goes to Miguel o'hara spider-man 2099.
I'm hesitant to say it because as young as I am, and possibly due to living in the UK, I may not have been able to read the entire saga and definitely couldn't on release, but from what I Did read I always quite enjoyed the clone saga. I liked Ben Riley and it would have been interesting to see the original ideas for the saga come to fruition. Because of my already stated lack of confidence that I've read the entire thing, it would be cool to see a detailed video on the actual events.
"I enjoy when stories are like, "Don't worry, it'll all be resolved never." " Then you will enjoy "Facade". A new, mysterious super-villain introduced in a 1994 Spider-Man. storyline. The storyline was a murder mystery and was supposed to increase reader's interest of who was hiding behind Facade's mask. But the writers themselves lost interest in it and moved on to other stories. Leaving a mystery without a solution for over 20 years.
I'm probably the only one who actually like the Clone Saga. I recall actually buying a lot more Spidey comics on the edge of my seat, wondering what would happen next.
I still like it. I guess because I dropped out of comics in the middle of it and only picked it up after it was finished...so for me it wasn't a long drawn out thing.
It has good elements. I wish that Ben had taken the reigns as Spidey and Peter had settled down with MJ and baby Mayday and he could occasionally don the suit and team up with Ben and then when May's older she could have a daddy and uncle who could teach her how to use her spider-powers. It would be so much better than the crap we have currently.
+Jason Scarce You're not the only one. The Clone Saga from the nineties is my absolute favorite Spider-Man storyline. Like you said, it was an edge of your seat, heck of a story. Ben Reilly, Kaine, Spider-Cide, Judas Traveller. I mean, Ben even participated in the Marvel VS DC storyline, and was a part of the Amalgam Universe when he and SuperBoy merged into one being. Brilliant.
+Nightman221k Damn. Now that sounds like it would make a very nice series. Ben definitely should have been the only Spider-Man from then on. It would of been so nice to see how Mayday and Ben interacted.
Wow, this brought back memories, especially the Steve Skroce page shown at 18:02 If I remember correctly, the Allison character that Osborn was speaking to was not only fully visible but you could see that she was carrying Mary Jane's baby. I was told to redraw all the panels with the baby, so you couldn't tell what it was. I may even still have photocopies of the before and after pages somewhere!
I personally love the character of Ben Reilly/Scarlet Spider. I also really like Kaine (who I am surprised you never mentioned, since he was a major part of the saga). Maximum Clonage just should have never happened as well as everything after that. I would have liked it if they kept Ben Reilly/Scarlet Spider and just had him living and working somewhere else in the US, Canada, or wherever, with an occasional Spider-Men team up (like if Carnage got loose again). Just think of it like how Dick Grayson went off to defend another city as Nightwing, but would every once in a while return to help Batman and Robin In fact, I am all for the return of Ben Reilly. Also, in all honesty, I loved his outfit. I don't know why, but I have always loved his outfit.
Agreed, i read the beginning of Ben Reilly and i really like him and his journey of self discovery. Also his background is extremely tragic. Same for Kaine. Past infor about me, Robin/nightwing/red hood/ red robin was my favorite superhero until recently when i read spiderman comic. Now spider-man got move to number one spot. They are very extremely similar to each other. How they talk and fight. However one thing i like about the robins is their team ups. Their sense of brotherhood. They were all raised by Batman and despite being different can related to each because of it. For me Ben Reilly, Kaine, and Peter parker are different person but all have memories of being raised by Ben and May and sense of responsibility. So i would love it if they do more team up as brothers. They already referred to themselves as brothers and their dynamic would be awesome. Especially them be able related to all thier tragedies. Ben Reilly being killed and forcibly back alive 30 times, kaine trying to be a beter person, and Peter parker well him being Peter parker. They so much to write about with this trio. (As long they keep to these three and no other clones it should be great.)
There's probably a few different stories. I heard that he was all for it because he thought their relationship was too perfect. We'll never know the truth!
Funny how I was just praising how well written this episode was when you praised Amazing Spiderman 400's story. It's really amazing the way you present things now compared to when you started. It really shows that caring about something and practicing it makes you improve. Thank you as always for the entertainment :)
Thanks for doing this video and making it long form as well! I've looked into it and never read it through, but I kinda grew up with it. Starting buying comics when I was really young for a dollar at the flea market. most of them were 90's comics, and I loved Spider-Man. So I grew to love Ben Reilly and Kaine, even if most people don't. I know the clone saga is a sore subject for Spidey fans, but I love it cause it helped me get into comics. That's still probably more than Brand New Day ever did for anyone.
Hey Scott, I think you need a longer desk or less clutter. I know what you're going for but you look uncomfortable & that makes me uncomfortable. Unless that's one of your clones... in which case make the next one with smaller arms. :D
I've been catching up with your videos for the last couple of weeks (just discovered your channel), watching them in no particular order, old and new, and this is my favorite hairstyle of yours so far. 😂
Didn't mind the saga. I loved Ben Reilly. They actually messed it up more with Ben's death. After he died, he turned to dust but perfect clones don't disintegrate to dust because they're perfect. There is no cellular damage. So Ben should still be alive. After Kaine became a perfect clone & he died, he didn't turn to dust. Another loop hole
This makes perfect sense to me but you need to read to rest. The REAL ben reilly is still in a basement in norman Osborn's house getting the shit kicked out of him on a daily basis. THe one we saw die was just another 'clone' to mess with spidey on Norman's return. Imagine how fans would react to ben being tortured for five years and what type of man he's become in that time. it'd be fucking amazeballs.
The clone saga was a very big part of my childhood comic experience. This shed a lot of light on things. Thank you so much for doing this video... so much information I wouldn't have come across myself. Again, I have a deep appreciation for you.
***** Oh, it is such an eccletic channel. He covers stuff from the comics bubble to Asimov's Foundation series. His videos are pretty long though, i suggest trying out his history of the transformers, since they are pretty short. I have a feeling you will enjoy it.
Anything is good, but I would love for you to explain the scarab of Jamie Reyes and how it has flip flopped from alien to magic, but some ted kord is always good too
All the different versions, Blue Beetle in Young Justice/Teen Titans, Beetle mythology(like the different types of beetles and whatnot), Jaime's history as the Blue Beetle, Blue Beetle's relation to Booster Gold etc etc. I would be lying if I said that I didn't know much about the character outside YJ, Smallville and Justice League vs Teen Titans, and I'd personally love to learn more about him, in any of his incarnations.
3:43 I'm confused. You said in one video that no one liked Gwen Stacy, but in here, you saybfans got angry when they killed her off. I thought the reason they killed her is because no one liked her. It's like if people got mad that Jar jar died.
Wdym jar jar is amazing I wish he didn’t die because he was honestly the best character in all of Star Wars and had even more potential than all the skywalkers and obi combined. Do not disrespect my boi jar jar ever again.
I remember when something like this happened in Young Justice, only it was done far better and everyone was happy: Roy Harper’s Clone had a daughter with Cheshire, while the Real Roy Harper got to reinvent himself as the dark, angsty Arsenal. The biggest difference is that the Real Roy went into a coma for five years, while Clone-Roy started a family during said five years (and knew that he was a clone for nearly as long)
It is? I've never read the clone saga or one more day but I've heard negative about both. I'll probably read them and compare the two to see which is worst
Fullmetal335 One's a messed up comic which leaves you confused for the most bit and the other is a story which destroys a perfect relationship which everybody loved (except the writer) with an equally convoluted plot which makes no sense and makes you wonder how someone like Spidey could make the decision he did. Now it's up to you to decide which one's worse.
Really tho I suggest you just look up these shit stories on the net and not actually read them. There are so many good stuff you should read to get a good time. For starters, read stuff like Spider-Man: Blue and Kraven's Last Hunt if you haven't already.
10:20 "If we're making good books,I don't care if they sell poorly.I'm not gonna let marketing and sales tells us how to make comics" This is literally the opposite of what Marvel is doing nowadays.
I love the idea of having a few clones about the place... would sure make answering these comments a 100 times more efficient haha. But as far as the video goes I have said already on twitter that the cloning technique was done so well! These videos are getting better and better all the time, and they are a joy to watch!
You are Amazing brother thanks for your RUclips channel..as a long time comics fan...and nephew of a longtime former Marvel employee..I had no idea about what went on behind the scenes then.
Overall, this was Marvel's largest misstep. But hey, at least they fixed it later on! Even if it was only due to the massive backlash... Though I thought that the reason Marvel killed off Gwen Stacey was because her character was bland and readers were starting to become uninterested in her.
"Gwen Stacey was because her character was bland and readers were starting to become uninterested in her." They initially introduced her as a confident college student who had men wrapped around her finger, and was annoyed that the (self-absorbed) Peter Parker did not even notice her. Then they had her changed into a daddy's girl and typical good girl. Then they brutally killed her father, and depicted her as a traumatized nervous-wreck of a person. Way to go for characterization, by the House of Ideas.
I'm really glad they didn't let Norman stay dead; his appearances in Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, and Siege are some of his best, and most of those events wouldn't have happened without him.
This is my most despised moment in Spider-Man history, where Marvel gave the message that Peter Parker sucks, Ben Reilly rules, so support us in having Ben replace Peter.
+Benjamin Kemer When you put it that way, I'd go with that tactic. Ben Reilly became a much better character than Peter Parker during and after this storyline. Ben should have been declared once and for all: the true Peter Parker.
Hey Scott! After reading Ultimate Comics Spiderman and Superior Spiderman comics recently, I've learned of the existence of a lot of spider-men. If it isn't too much to ask, I would love to see you do some sort of compilation of every spider-man(or woman) ever!
Wow. This one video reveals the inside story of what drove me away from reading Spider-Man comic books and, became the beginning of a quick end for my entire comic book association. Amazing. I always knew it was Maximum Clonage, but now I know why and how.
![[SFM] Risky Recital](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RzNkY1_Nk3o/mqdefault.jpg)
"Maximum Clonage" is a phrase that only the 90's could have produced.
THE POWER IS MAXIMUMER
Or Game Grumps
It needed a neon cover variant...or at least a glow in the dark foil. Lol
the decade that was neon colored EXTREME!!!!!
CLONAGE USA
Death of Gwen: Shake things up, keep Spider-man single and thus more relateable
Clone Saga: Shake things up, make Spider-man single and thus more relateable
One More Day: Shale things up, make Spider-man single and thus more relateable
2/3 of the times writers tried shaking things up and keep Spider-man single turned out to be some of the worst Spider-man stories ever
"2/3 of the times writers tried shaking things up and keep Spider-man single turned out to be some of the worst Spider-man stories ever"
Because they tried to erase years of character development, regress Peter Parker to an immature jerk, and get rid of the supporting cast.
As for Gwen, she was written poorly for years ... before they decided to kill her.
What's next, resurrect Uncle Ben by making another deal with the devil since deaths always have no consequences.
OMD IS *FAR* WORSE
i liked death of gwen
Let me put it this way in Renew your Vows the moment MJ dawns that red and white spider suit and calls herself Spinneret for the first time, and seeing Annie May become Spiderling renders One More Day and the Clone Saga miscarriage unnecessary because in one panel with one line of dialogue "You're no longer a solo act" you fixed everything you said was wrong with the idea, and now all defenses of One More Day and the infamous miscarrage come across as mean spirited excuses for being lazy and uncreative so let me ask what's the point of keeping either one around other then excuses for laziness and uncreativity?
The whole thing stemmed from a gross misconception of the Spider-Man character that continues to this day. It's the idea that Peter should never grow up, when in fact he'd been aging and growing since the beginning.
He started as a high school student. He graduated high school and went to college. He went from bullied nerd to actually being fairly popular, including befriending the guy who'd bullied him in high school. He fell in love and saw that love die. He graduated college and started his post-graduate studies. He moved on to a new love, which ended up being on and off for many years. He left grad school for a time when balancing his life became too difficult, but eventually returned. He got married.
Spider-Man/Peter Parker was all about growing up and change. It was never about always being in the same point in life.
It's also funny that he couldn't be married, but someone thought it was OK to turn him into Tony Stark when the one consistent thing about him is that he's terrible with money and keeping a schedule.
Wow, you're a true believer for sure.
The rich “Stark” Parker was actually Dr Octopus in his body though not Peter
Guess you haven’t read All New All Different Spider Man. Otto had left the body for quite a while, what was left was Parker Industry, so Peter took advantage of that and used all the money and resources to upgrade Spider Man, like created the Mark 4 Spider Armor.
Yeah, it's rather bizzar to me. 😞😞
Exactly, the fun of peter parker is you get to watch him grow up
I like the original draft of the clone saga.
Scarlet Spider becoming the new official Spider-Man and Peter Parker becoming a family man would of been the perfect ending for Peter.
Isn't that what MC2 is all about? granted, Ben didn't became the new Spider-Man he died in MC2 but peter did get that happy ending, with now his Daughter becoming the new Spider-Girl
They should have had it be a *clone* of Norman Osbourne, made by Norman before he died.
seriously, read the "Real" Clone Saga sometime
it's much shorter and it actually does the story and both Peter and Ben justice
plus it actually does use Harry as the real mastermind, along with that Norman Osborn clone
@@michellelincoln9987 what's the issue numbers?
@@michellelincoln9987 So the real Clone Saga considered canon or not ?
The Mossy Cobble There’s a mini-series called Spider-Man: The Clone Saga, it was made to show the original story that was planned for the clone saga. It’s only 6 issues long, and was released back in 2013
@@HusseinItami some is canon, only good things was ben, Kaine
and jackal
Ben Riley, a clone of Peter, the new spiderman, taking the mantle and responsibility so that the real one could live his life and raise a child with Mary Jane. How was that a bad idea.
It wasn't, it just would have upset fanboys who would complain that one was the clone. (Honestly, it doesn't matter much who is or isn't the clone. Both were alive and had feelings and memories)
At least that story was continued with Spider Girl.
The idea is great, but the writers, editorial staff and everyone at marvel was so unorganized during this project that everything fell apart
x-factor did the same with with multiple man, but I didn't see that brought up. :-( maybe too much of a tangent.
What turned a potentially good idea into a bad one was trying to make Ben Riley the original and Peter the clone, instead of the other way around.
aw man i really liked ben reily that original arc they had planned with pete setting down and ben taking over sounds like it would have been awesome
It also would have opened the door to a Spider-Family. I mean, MJ and Pete having a baby and Ben being her Uncle Ben would be so cute and Peter could grow up a bit while Ben lives a more carefree life not tied down, you get the best of two worlds.
Yeah but there was one problem people had...the Peter they been following since 1976 was a clone and the real Peter would've been Ben except every time you would introduce Ben you'll have to explain that he's really Peter Parker even though he has blonde hair. You'll also wouldn't be able to interact with the Bugle and other characters even if he did come back as Peter because everyone in the Bugle would be asking where's Mary Jane Watson with the kid? Unless he told them his identity it wouldn't work. Plus all those years with the "clone" Parker would mean Kraven's Last Hunt was meaningless and bunch of other stories like Harry Osborn's death wouldn't have the same punch as it once did. Overall its a big mess.
No Harrys death could have been played up. The Real Pete was not there for his best friends death. This could have been used to sober the Carefree Spiderman if people were getting annoyed that he was a bit to unconnected to the past issues. Kraven's Last Hunt does not lose its meaning it takes on a different view but hardly meaningless.
Can Doodle yea I thought the same
The problem was having suggested that Peter was the clone in first place. Instead of revealing that Ben was the original and Peter was the clone, they should've established that Peter was the original way before and not have prolonged it. But the miscarriage was a pretty bad move, especially now that we have so many Spider-Men. Too many editors and a plot line with great possibilities poorly managed
The Clone Saga had potential, unlike One More Day which was dead on arrival. The dragging out is why I prefer the Real Clone Saga trade
Wait, so the idea of having a new person take on the Spiderman role was more offensive to the guy than having Peter and his beloved wife tragically loose a baby? WTH? Personally I'd like to see more superheroes with kids.
Great video Scott. Love the skit at the beginning. What are you're thoughts on the latest developments in Civil War II?
"Personally I'd like to see more superheroes with kids."
Like Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Henry Pym, Wasp/Janet Van Dyne, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Quicksilver, Crystal, Medusa, Black Bolt, and Wolverine? Marvel has many heroes with kids. How the writers treat them is another matter.
I also like supervillains with kids. The Mystique-Rogue relationship is one of the main reasons that I became interested in the X-Men. Having a daughter with major problems, that you can't help resolve no matter how much you care about her.
It was the 90s and the Dark Age of Comics was at it's peak...nuff said.
I want to a super family in the vain of the incredibles. Imagine the banter!
@@bobi200samatar6 powerback... Fantastic four..... Runaways...............
@@bobi200samatar6 To bad old (young) Franklin Richards won't let anyone in the universe age.
A nice simple story of Ben Riley taking on the mantle of Spider- Man would have been so much better. I think a combination of fear of fan reaction and to many conflicting creators are what killed it. On a related note it is sad that Peter Parker as a character is not allowed to live an adult life Part of Spider-Man's appeal is that he is a normal guy with these amazing powers. Why is Peter having a wife and kid seen as such a bad thing when a big part of Spider-Man's appeal is that he has to balance real life with his super hero adventures?
AvatAR42420
Exactly. Its even easier to implement now, as Peter can be the seasoned, more responsible adult Spiderman, while Miles Morales is the more whimsical, irresponsible teenage Spider-Man
Peters appeal was always rooted towards being the embodiment of youth and unfortunate problems with the youthful action.
Floor scott is best scott
The one without a bow tie
He's... he's just... ugh.
He is just perfect lol
I dont have a Tie, 30 seconds in the video and i burst a laughter :D
Real Scott should die somehow and Floor Scott should be the new host of Nerd Sync. Right that up imaginary writers, and make is as complicated and convoluted as possible
17 minutes in I finally realized the lantern is a green lantern
+Jacob Carroll haha!
+Jacob Carroll haha!
HHH MY GOD I think that is the original lantern from Scott the first Lantern
I wonder if anyone at Marvel considered the idea of Peter Parker with a Green Lantern ring?
@@zelm157 no Scotts lantern looked like the silver ages green lanterns lantern
What I find interesting about this whole mess is the motivation behind its conception, the idea that they were "alienating" the readership by giving Peter relatable adult issues. There seems to be this impression that the readership remained the same age, no matter how much time had passed since Spider-Man's earlier years, when in truth, the readership was probably growing up with the writers, and indeed the character himself, so issues such as marriage, mortgages and kids would have been welcome, relatable problems for Spider-Man to deal, as the character was designed to be identifiable, and as the readership got older and teenage readers grew into adults, the subject matter of his personal life should change to reflect that.
Perhaps if one of the writers at the time caught wind of this, we wouldn't have gotten the mess of a saga that we have, but then again, all the editorial mishaps would have still occurred, so perhaps we would just be trading one bad event for another, making this all inevitable in one way or another.
Exactly!!! What they could've done instead was create the "Ultimate" version of him then and make him younger...but that bright idea unfortunately wouldn't come until after the damage had been done already.
I'm with you 💯 on the potential of aging Peter and giving him more adult problems and responsibilities.
I was 9-10 when this was happening, and even then I liked that aspect. It wasn't alienating at all... It made me think, _"Oh wow, Spider-Man is all grown up... How terrifying!"_
It also made him an adult to "look up to."
The beautifully written swan song to Aunt May was eventually reconned out, and May was alive and once again clueless about Peter being Spider-Man, therefore killing one of the only good moments of the whole mess.
It wasn't even the last time this would happen, either - JMS's run had May find out that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, come to terms with it, and become a more active member of the supporting cast -- annnnd then One More Day once again retconned it so she was clueless again.
Ultimate Spider-Man had a similar story as part of its own version of the Clone Saga -- which somewhat ironically was once of the best arcs in that series. May finds out, RAGES at Peter for lying to her all this time, and almost kicks him out of the house before she comes to terms with it. As this was an alternate universe, it was never retconned out -- just erased from existence.
Remember "Maximum Carnage?" That started something new in Spider-man comics that the Clone Saga made even worse: Continuing the story across multiple books (for example, The Amazing Spider-Man would be continued in The Spectacular Spider-Man which would continue in The Web of Spider-Man which continued into Spider-Man, which continued back into The Amazing Spider-Man). This made collecting comics at the time an infuriating proposal, not just because you had to buy four separate books, but because it was difficult to organize the comics into a coherent storyline. Even the official Marvel 30 Years of Amazing Spider-Man CD-ROM collection they sold a few years back is impossible to read during the mid-1990s thanks to these storylines, because the damn creative team would sometimes switch, new characters were introduced every issue, and you were only getting one in every four bits of the story. It was a nightmare and a lot of people at the time just stopped collecting BECAUSE of these marketing tactics.
Pisses me off. I have the same CD rom.
For me "Maximum Carnage" and "Clone Saga", are the worst of classic Spider-man stories. BUT "Sins of the Past" and "Reign" are WAY worst. ("Brand New Day" it's no that bad if your a DC fan)
I know right, tie-ins can be ok, but spreading a story that thin is maddening!!!!! I really hope this is practiced less now or almost completely dropped.
Actually, I liked how the story kept going each week. The different stories - without interruption - of each comicbook were difficult to integrate and when they decided to have the story continue through all of them, it made the reading integration a lot easier for me.
I kinda liked Maximum Carnage tbh.Although,the art style was terrible,
Sorry this video was late. As you can see, it's a lot longer than normal. I also got lost in Marvel history and Clone Saga shenanigans. There's far more that couldn't make it into the video, so check out the sources in the description!
Also, I love you. Keep it up!
i would hav thought it would come earlier but whatevs
u put so much effort into the vid so no sweat. Keep it up
I found something that might increase your opinion of Deadpool. Hamilton was in a deadpool comic. I'm internally freaking out and want to scream in caps lock. But I won't
the age of the clones is more complex than X movies timeline
Chelsea H. whose Hamilton?
"Since when were clones a good idea?"
I think the Roy Harper clone saga in the Young Justice animated series was pretty damn cool! :P
True, but beyond the fact that comic fans probably learned their lesson after the clone saga, red arrow had the benefit of being the only roy we knew so it didn't come across as being a massive retconn.
The Clone Saga is what got me out of comics. I loved Spiderman and had been collecting all the runs at the time, and had for a decade. FOUR DIFFERENT TITTLES at the time. If they had simply kept the continuity and reduced Peter's role and slowly worked Ben in more I would haved loved it.
Aunt May's death was touching and heartfelt, and SHOULD HAVE BEEN PERMANENT. I actually cried a little bit. I didn't so much mind Ben being the real Peter, but did not want the story of Peter and MJ to go away.
There would have been great story telling opportunities in the two warheads running around, and it isn't like they did not have enough titles to tell those stories.
The Amazing Spider-Man, Peter Parker the Spectacular Spiderman, Web of Spiderman, Spiderman.
THE CLONE SAGA IS WHAT GOT ME OUT OF COMICS TOO, which is good because I got out before all the cosmic/galactic/heroes in space stuff. Yes, Tim Kinrade, earthling, can relate to cosmic beings with the power of gods that ride around in galactic helicopters.
Don't even get me started on multiple universes... it's gross in fiction and even more disgusting that people give legitimacy to idea that reality works that way. "Ah yes, sure there's more evidence for the existence of God and for a flat Earth.... but multiple universes is totally possible"
Maximum Carnage made me quit but the first ember of clone saga made me divorce Spidey
Ironically I bought and read tons of Superman and Batman comics soon after but I stopped
being A REGULAR - I now just selectively read one shots and/or trade paperbacks
I think they don’t know what to do with Spider-Man. Even now they killed Ultimate Peter Parker with a black Miles Morales, they don’t know what to do with Miles. They want change but who really likes Aunt May? She’s been in the hospital at death door million times. At the end of the clone saga nothing happened Aunt May came back Peter Parker is Spider-Man and Mary Jane isn’t pregnant. Even One-More Day ended Peter &MJ marriage and brought back Aunt May the most exciting comic was Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows with Peter MJ and his kid which could’ve been the most exciting comic event of the 90s and what’s crazier that it’s set alternate 90s universe!
Couldn't they have just made the Kingpin the villain? He's similar enough to Norman Osborne.
I really love this longer format, as well as this sitting Scott set up, it really feels like I'm in a classroom learning some stuff.
Thanks so much! I can't promise the longer format is here to stay, but the desk certainly is! I like not having to stand for long periods of time. Haha
Cool!
Imagine a Clone Saga movie..
FUCK! I'd preffer a Spiderverse movie with Toby Maguire and maybe Andrew Garfield.
I'd rather not. I'll definitely do a Spider-Verse, though!
How many parts would they have to split it up into? My guess is at least 10
As long as it's based on the Ultimate universe.
***** yeah loved the Spider-Verse. Maybe have Tobey and Andrew return as alternate Spidey's then add new ones such as Miles, Gwen, Silk etc
Sooner or later writers will say that Uncle Ben was the mastermind of the Clone Saga. That would get a lot of people, including myself, outraged.
Slott will probably co-write it with Bendis and Quesada
Who would draw it
Cammuncoli
Fool! Aunt May was obviously the mastermind all along! She wanted nothing more than for Peter to just be a guy who takes care of his Aunt, and his worldsaving and girlfriends and child kept getting in the way of that. So she created a bunch of clones who all did a bunch of stuff which somehow ended in her getting a lifetime supply of condoms and life in the Orgy Friendly Retirement Home of Blackjack and Blow!
"PETER! I'm back, _and I'm pissed!_"
Why not an episode on the history of Spider-Man's armpit webbing?
Not sure about the story but I freakin LOVE that Scarlet Spider outfit
James Reed I like the suit too.
Which one, Ben Version or Kanie version
Ben version
I'd totally recommend Vol 1 of the Clone Saga Omnibus. Vol 2 gets really Shakey, but Vol 1 is pretty phenomenal story in my opinion.
I really enjoy your videos lately. The quality of the content has gone way up. I like the new setup.
Agreed
I've always loved his videos, but I agree, the new set is great!
Many thanks! Scott worked long and hard on the new setup, and I have to agree with you. And I am not just saying that because I am contractually obligated to... really! haha. Thanks for watching!
Dave "DJ" Johnson
(Community Manager)
I geek out every time we sneak in a Hamilton reference.
So constantly ;)..
What/who is this Hamilton you all speak of!?
I'm here monkeysnot
Hey, Scott argued he is an AnnoyingNerd, it was a hoot
Hey, Scott argued he is an AnnoyingNerd, it was a hoot
wait which scott is the real scott? are any of them the real scott? will this be resolved shortly or will we have to wait 2 years for a resolution to this plot where it will become horribly complicated and drawn out
lol
and then we will have to end all but two clones and make one Edgy and have the other die by a villian that should be dead. Oh and then reboot the chanel once or twice and then do the same thing over again .
Clone saga could have been saved with them having the original set up except have Spider-Man and scarlet spider fight, then team up, then have scarlet spider die in battle after saving Spider-Man. Then Spider-Man and Mary Jane have the baby, it's a boy and they name him Benjamin Reily Parker and then that could have set up a future story of Peter's son becoming the new scarlet spider after his parents are killed and he wants to avenge their death
The problem is that would take to long and they wanted a solution as quick as possible.
What you describe is a bit like what happens in Savage Dragon. The book's star from the '90s is a supporting character of a story about his son Malcolm Dragon these days (maybe grand-kids too). Plus, the creator/writer/artist/part-owner-of-the-publisher are all the same dude so the story won't fall prey to some marketing department.
so does anybody know what happened to the baby?
@@luistorre669 they retconned the baby, never happened. But they made an alternate reality comics. in where peters daughter happened and het daughter took the mantle of Spider-Girl.
The sliding time scale in comics makes raising kids problematic.
So what you're saying is that the Clone Saga was actually gonna be a good comic, but a series of bad choices and people leaving/quitting made it bad. So the inicial story was gonna be okay, but the execution and the decision to prolong it was bad.
This is totally on the editors' shoulders. Some of the outcomes would have been really great and while I love Peter it would have been fantastic to just have him retire with MJ. Of course they'd bring him back, but imagine Ben teaming up with Peter and his kid. So many missed opportunities.
Honestly they could have had their own little Spider Family like the Bat Family of DC. Ben replaces Peter for a while so Peter can raise his child and take part in his family until his daughter (if they went with the Spider-Girl angle) grows old enough to become a child hero and Peter comes out of retirement to train her and help her on her way so we have a Spiderman that can be darker, a Spiderman that can be friendlier, both these can appeal to adults and you have a kid Spiderman that is also female to appeal to kids and girls.
Justin Stovall
Yeah though at least they seem to have that Spider Family thing going on now with Peter Parker, Miles, Spider Woman and I think Spider Gwen is int he main universe.
Justin Stovall
Yep, back then all these other Spidermen were alternate realities and dead clones.
Justin Stovall
Mmhm.
I would have liked to have see that too. Peter and Ben being like brothers and Peter being a dad would have been a cool idea. You get the best of both worlds with adult-life Peter and Ben who isn't tied down. It's stupid that people let the idea get so convoluted and get fixated on who was the "real" Peter or not? Who cares? They both were alive and had feelings and memories. I'd rather that outcome than how things are now. Not saying we don't have some good things now but I quit reading Spider-man after Sins Past (which never would have happened if this story didn't end in shitty deus ex machina Norman Osborn coming back)
the clone saga was awesome in ultimate spiderman comics (peter parker)
I love the way they introduced Spider-woman (girl?) into that story. The awkwardness between her and Peter was great. I wish they would have kept her story going
that's true
Yeah ultimate version is the only clone saga i read so i didn't get the hate for the clone saga in general
Well, that's mostly because it managed to keep itself to one brief story arc that takes place over the course of a single day - not three goddamn years over multiple titles.
Kinda ironic that Bendis, the guy in comics most notorious for padding shit out like mattress tampons, took one of the most notoriously overlong arcs in comics and remade it to fit into one trade.
lady parker and furrie spider peter were awesome!
6:52 somewhere in the world Linkara is cackling in hatred for One More Day.
In a way, the Clone Saga was a proto-OMD, considering one of the main objectives was to make Spidey single.
Linkara is an invalid
I actually loved the clone saga manly because of Ben Riley
Are you my clone?
General ke-
Hey! You're not general Kenobi!
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi You're a bold one...
I also really enjoyed it. Was it good? hell no it was super confusing. Was it enjoyable as long as I turned my brain off? Yes.
I actually loved it for Ben and Kaine, Peter's female clone was cool I guess
This exact series is what drop Spider-Man from my number one as a kid to still one of my favorites but he went down quite a few pegs after this. I was born in the late 70s so to be told in my twenties at the Spider-Man that I've always known might have been a clone and not the real Peter Parker was a slap in the face. I still hung in there and try to read the comics to see where they were going but it just dragged on and by the time I started to accept it and the stories actually started to get good they killed Ben Riley, brought back Norman Osborn, and kidnap Peter and Mary Jane's child and turn it into a house cat? My Spidey fandom has never fully recovered since then...
Well, my personal opinions on the clone saga: I didn't read the clone saga from the beginning, but when I started reading it, in few books I learned Peter Parker wasn't the amazing spiderman, instead Ben Reilly was the spiderman, MJ was pregnant, but she was given an abortive by a shady nurse, aunt May was dead and Norman Osborn, the man who killed Gwen Stacy, was back. Back then, it felt to me way worse than Captain America saying "Hail Hydra". It felt like a Marvel attempt at breaking the spiderman so it's character could grow gone horribly wrong. After today's Nerd Sync episode, I feel more enlightened. As far as I understood, it was more like an accident than some attempt at spidersadism. Good work.
BTW, please do another one like this on "Spider-Man: One More Day" Spiderman Storyline. I heard it's the only other spider-story close enough to be a disaster like "Clone Saga", but I never really understood why.
The baby was not aborted. She was kidnapped and died somehow off scene. Also, I hate One More Day because it made me hate Peter. I no longer buy the books. I bought Superior only because Peter "died".
deathsdoor07 They retconned it. When I first saw the comic, there was a scene showing some shady woman putting something into her coffee at a cafe. MJ went into labour after drinking the coffee, and later there was a very sad panel showing Peter hugging MJ and the shady woman, who was a nurse at the hospital, saying something like "It's done" to a mysterious figure, later revealed to be Norman Osborne. That's what I remember from memory, so it might be different from the comic itself, but I'm pretty sure the scene was meant to be an abortion before Marvel changed it once again to look like something else.
Marco Túlio Todeschini Coelho
I read that too but after that the "nurse" had the baby with her and Norman got her on a boat. A year later, she comes back and tells Peter the baby was alive and Norman has her killed. Peter instead finds Aunt May and the baby is not mentioned again which pissed me off.
Marvel or the writers lets the readers know that the baby is alive because they went back to the "nurse" and baby occasionally. Then the "nurse" dies and Aunt May is revealed to be alive but no baby. You would think Peter would do some more investigating to find out if the woman was crazy or if she was telling the truth. Nope, he does none of that shit.
deathsdoor07 Yeah, it was a pretty confusing and sad comic book saga. Back then, I pretty much assumed Mary Jane was given some abortion drug by the shady nurse on Osborne's orders, but now, I have to admit I have no idea what was the endgame plan of the "Clone Saga". Besides, I can't say my memory is the most reliable one.
Doesn't he have a daughter in 1 Marvel universe?
Anyone else recognized the Ramona Flowers drawing in the background?
oh shit yeah
I've seen that film like 12 times and I wouldn't have noticed it if you hadn't pointed it out. Good job.
VariTimo 😱😂👌🏻
His name is Scott and he has a doodle of Ramona.
I see what he did there.
oh can you do a video why *All-Star Batman* is considered one of the *worst Batman stories* ever while *All-Star Superman* is considered *one of the best?*
The short of it is that Grant Morrisson really understood Superman as a character and managed to sum him up in a modern parallel of the 12 Trials of Hercules, while Frank Miller basically told a Sin City story with a Batman skin.
Jay K. Weatherface Best type of irony right there.
+Oval Cirlce I think those images should be classified as unholy. I can feel Satan trying to worm his way into my soul.
You shouldn't the type "the comic which mustn't be named" some say it so bad that even a single utter of the name can ruin some new writer's comic.
"why All-Star Batman is considered one of the worst Batman stories "
Because that version of Batman literally gets sexually aroused when killing people, and had sex with Black Canary next to burning corpses?
I was like, 13 when I read the saga issue by issue as it came out back in 1995 and it broke me.
I was a huge Spiderman fan till that story. I had an uncle who gave me like, 30 or 40 years worth of back issues once and I would pour over those comics in awe. I felt like the Clone saga started off well, with nice nods to older Spidy stories, but then it just dropped the ball by outing the clone as the "real" Spiderman and the hero we've been following all these years as the clone.
It might have bene a great idea on paper, but the way it was told just felt like it was shitting on Spidy history. I did like Kane though and thought he made a good, tragic villain.
What I liked about the Clone Saga was Mary Jane's sticking with Peter through thick and thin throughout the whole clone saga. She loved and supported him even when she thought he was a clone. She even showed guts when trying to get through to him when he was programmed to kill her. She had faith in Peter. I also liked Ben Reilly. I just thought he was a cool and likeable person, and I thought killing him off was terrible. He ended up being a brother to Peter.
That opening sequence was fantastic! Good work, my man!
Thanks so much!
I always thought Kaine was actually cool. Why did they get rid of him again in Spider-verse.
Agreed, he was a cool character. A darker Spiderman that fought against underground stuff like drug dealers and human traffickers.
He was more relatable if you can say. I think spiderman needed that down to earth side of him.
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
To be honest, they should never have done the whole stupid thing to begin with. This was the beginning of the end of all the Spider-Man titles for me back in the day. I still cringe and get a headache at the mention of the Spider-Man Clone Saga. :(
I didn't even know the history of the clone saga, but when it came to the Norman Osborn part of the video I put my face between my hands in disgust and sighed in disbelief.
You're telling me that the "pEtEr MuSt StAy ReLaTaBlE" thing started with Romita Sr. Refusing to kill Aunt May...? I seriously am questioning Marvel's quality at this point.
At the risk of getting a lot of hate... I actually liked the clone saga. You could argue that it's overarching story was a mess but this was really the first story that allowed Peter to grow above and beyond the boundaries of his alter ego. We saw Peter become a husband, a man and a potential father creating a life for him then MJ and it provided some of the most powerful moments in his history. Even his relationship with Ben was well developed during the arc and when he died that actually had some impact with me.
Hey man if you liked it great
I just don't think it came about from good intentions
It came through greed and ego but if you dug it great
Even though the clone saga was bad we can all agree that ben riley had the best spider-man suit and still does in my opinion 2nd goes to Miguel o'hara spider-man 2099.
Oh and the other scarlet spider-man kaine had amazing suit.
Both their suits are just too 90s and didn't age well in my opinion.
superior Spidey said hi
His suit looked better on Spider-girl/woman, unless you mean the Scarlet Spider one. I think that one is too 90's with the baggy top over spandex look
I think you mean ultimate spiderman
I'm hesitant to say it because as young as I am, and possibly due to living in the UK, I may not have been able to read the entire saga and definitely couldn't on release, but from what I Did read I always quite enjoyed the clone saga.
I liked Ben Riley and it would have been interesting to see the original ideas for the saga come to fruition.
Because of my already stated lack of confidence that I've read the entire thing, it would be cool to see a detailed video on the actual events.
Hey- Steven Butler here- I was one of the artists on the Clone Saga back in the day- just watched your video and enjoyed it a lot!
for some reason I imagine one person pitched "the death of spiderman" and in an alternate universe that was one of spiderman's biggest arcs
#SaveTheScottWithNoTie
Yeah. The one in the green plaid shirt. He's too much of a fully developed character to discard this early!
First rule of the clone saga: We don’t talk about the clone saga.
I enjoy when stories are like, "Don't worry, it'll all be resolved never."
"I enjoy when stories are like, "Don't worry, it'll all be resolved never." "
Then you will enjoy "Facade". A new, mysterious super-villain introduced in a 1994 Spider-Man. storyline. The storyline was a murder mystery and was supposed to increase reader's interest of who was hiding behind Facade's mask. But the writers themselves lost interest in it and moved on to other stories. Leaving a mystery without a solution for over 20 years.
Robin said it best, *"Got to love an army of me."* So clones, eat your heart out. ♡
10:20 Ironically the exact opposite being Marvel's current approach.
This is was really good, I was always curious why it took so long for that to end
Every time I learn something about Stan Lee I love him more and more :,)
I'm probably the only one who actually like the Clone Saga. I recall actually buying a lot more Spidey comics on the edge of my seat, wondering what would happen next.
Im with you. Seems to be a lot of unfair hate against the clone saga. I remeber enjoying it from start to finish.
I still like it. I guess because I dropped out of comics in the middle of it and only picked it up after it was finished...so for me it wasn't a long drawn out thing.
It has good elements. I wish that Ben had taken the reigns as Spidey and Peter had settled down with MJ and baby Mayday and he could occasionally don the suit and team up with Ben and then when May's older she could have a daddy and uncle who could teach her how to use her spider-powers. It would be so much better than the crap we have currently.
+Jason Scarce You're not the only one. The Clone Saga from the nineties is my absolute favorite Spider-Man storyline. Like you said, it was an edge of your seat, heck of a story. Ben Reilly, Kaine, Spider-Cide, Judas Traveller. I mean, Ben even participated in the Marvel VS DC storyline, and was a part of the Amalgam Universe when he and SuperBoy merged into one being. Brilliant.
+Nightman221k Damn. Now that sounds like it would make a very nice series. Ben definitely should have been the only Spider-Man from then on. It would of been so nice to see how Mayday and Ben interacted.
This is one of my favorite Nerdsync episodes. So informative and unique! I’ve seen it so many times👍🏻
Wow, this brought back memories, especially the Steve Skroce page shown at 18:02 If I remember correctly, the Allison character that Osborn was speaking to was not only fully visible but you could see that she was carrying Mary Jane's baby. I was told to redraw all the panels with the baby, so you couldn't tell what it was. I may even still have photocopies of the before and after pages somewhere!
I personally love the character of Ben Reilly/Scarlet Spider. I also really like Kaine (who I am surprised you never mentioned, since he was a major part of the saga). Maximum Clonage just should have never happened as well as everything after that. I would have liked it if they kept Ben Reilly/Scarlet Spider and just had him living and working somewhere else in the US, Canada, or wherever, with an occasional Spider-Men team up (like if Carnage got loose again). Just think of it like how Dick Grayson went off to defend another city as Nightwing, but would every once in a while return to help Batman and Robin
In fact, I am all for the return of Ben Reilly. Also, in all honesty, I loved his outfit. I don't know why, but I have always loved his outfit.
Agreed, i read the beginning of Ben Reilly and i really like him and his journey of self discovery. Also his background is extremely tragic. Same for Kaine. Past infor about me, Robin/nightwing/red hood/ red robin was my favorite superhero until recently when i read spiderman comic. Now spider-man got move to number one spot. They are very extremely similar to each other. How they talk and fight. However one thing i like about the robins is their team ups. Their sense of brotherhood. They were all raised by Batman and despite being different can related to each because of it. For me Ben Reilly, Kaine, and Peter parker are different person but all have memories of being raised by Ben and May and sense of responsibility. So i would love it if they do more team up as brothers. They already referred to themselves as brothers and their dynamic would be awesome. Especially them be able related to all thier tragedies. Ben Reilly being killed and forcibly back alive 30 times, kaine trying to be a beter person, and Peter parker well him being Peter parker. They so much to write about with this trio. (As long they keep to these three and no other clones it should be great.)
Wow, it's just hilarious how Marvel imploded like this. I think all the higher-ups were to blame here.
I heard Stan only said yes to Gwen's Death because he was in a trip and didn't really think about it and got distracted.
There's probably a few different stories. I heard that he was all for it because he thought their relationship was too perfect. We'll never know the truth!
Only the Watcher knows!
Sadly nobody besides those involved will actually know the real story, as it's really all just he-said-she-said nonsense.
Uh I LOVE how you slipped in the little Hamilton Musical line at 15:40!!! Well done sir.
Funny how I was just praising how well written this episode was when you praised Amazing Spiderman 400's story.
It's really amazing the way you present things now compared to when you started.
It really shows that caring about something and practicing it makes you improve.
Thank you as always for the entertainment :)
Nicely edited and very creative intro
I loved that intro.
15:45 wait is that a Hamilton reference or am I crazy?
I immediately thought of that too!
Aidypie lol
WASHINGTON CANNOT BE LEFT ALONE TO HIS DEVICES,
INDECISIVE FROM CRISIS TO CRISIS
😱😱😱
Ahg! I had the Death of Aunt May and I lost it!
It was so sad!
I like the green Scott.
"Deadpool?"
"Lalalalalala....."
"Deadpool!"
Thanks for doing this video and making it long form as well! I've looked into it and never read it through, but I kinda grew up with it. Starting buying comics when I was really young for a dollar at the flea market. most of them were 90's comics, and I loved Spider-Man. So I grew to love Ben Reilly and Kaine, even if most people don't. I know the clone saga is a sore subject for Spidey fans, but I love it cause it helped me get into comics. That's still probably more than Brand New Day ever did for anyone.
That starting was amazing lol
:)
Senpai notice me!
DEADPOOL VIDEO!
Hey Scott, I think you need a longer desk or less clutter. I know what you're going for but you look uncomfortable & that makes me uncomfortable. Unless that's one of your clones... in which case make the next one with smaller arms. :D
I couldn't agree more
Yeah, I like all the props, but if they're cluttering your desk you could move some away.
uhhh...what is he going for?
Bad Scott is my favorite Scott.
I've been catching up with your videos for the last couple of weeks (just discovered your channel), watching them in no particular order, old and new, and this is my favorite hairstyle of yours so far. 😂
Who’s here needing a refresher before Ben becomes Spider-Man again after the spencer run
Didn't mind the saga. I loved Ben Reilly. They actually messed it up more with Ben's death. After he died, he turned to dust but perfect clones don't disintegrate to dust because they're perfect. There is no cellular damage. So Ben should still be alive. After Kaine became a perfect clone & he died, he didn't turn to dust. Another loop hole
This makes perfect sense to me but you need to read to rest. The REAL ben reilly is still in a basement in norman Osborn's house getting the shit kicked out of him on a daily basis. THe one we saw die was just another 'clone' to mess with spidey on Norman's return. Imagine how fans would react to ben being tortured for five years and what type of man he's become in that time. it'd be fucking amazeballs.
@@karaokekingskingdom you predicted the hole damn premise of clone conspiracy.Except its miles warren instead of osborn.But damn,congrats
Spider-Girl MC2 May Parker was the best thing. There was a good Mysterious Scarlet Spidey Xmas story too
So it's technically the fans fault.
This is my favorite video of your channel. I'm watching it again simply because you asked us at the end of the MJ Peter video
The clone saga was a very big part of my childhood comic experience. This shed a lot of light on things. Thank you so much for doing this video... so much information I wouldn't have come across myself. Again, I have a deep appreciation for you.
Hey Scott, do you watch sfdebris's channel?
Can't say that i do
***** Oh, it is such an eccletic channel. He covers stuff from the comics bubble to Asimov's Foundation series. His videos are pretty long though, i suggest trying out his history of the transformers, since they are pretty short. I have a feeling you will enjoy it.
I'll check it out!
***** Well, the series is the shortest, the videos themselves, not really. I stumbled on my words.
Bear in mind his name is S(cience) F(iction) debris, so his focus is on Star Trek and other Sci-fi shows, but he has done a little of everything.
Scott, can we please get a Blue Beetle video, PLEASE ???!!
About what specifically?
Anything is good, but I would love for you to explain the scarab of Jamie Reyes and how it has flip flopped from alien to magic, but some ted kord is always good too
All the different versions, Blue Beetle in Young Justice/Teen Titans, Beetle mythology(like the different types of beetles and whatnot), Jaime's history as the Blue Beetle, Blue Beetle's relation to Booster Gold etc etc. I would be lying if I said that I didn't know much about the character outside YJ, Smallville and Justice League vs Teen Titans, and I'd personally love to learn more about him, in any of his incarnations.
A Booster Gold video would be better
Annoying Nerd Why not both?
keep the one who wanted to do a deadpool video I'm attached to him already
Yikes. Haha
fair enough
3:43 I'm confused. You said in one video that no one liked Gwen Stacy, but in here, you saybfans got angry when they killed her off. I thought the reason they killed her is because no one liked her. It's like if people got mad that Jar jar died.
Wdym jar jar is amazing I wish he didn’t die because he was honestly the best character in all of Star Wars and had even more potential than all the skywalkers and obi combined. Do not disrespect my boi jar jar ever again.
I remember when something like this happened in Young Justice, only it was done far better and everyone was happy: Roy Harper’s Clone had a daughter with Cheshire, while the Real Roy Harper got to reinvent himself as the dark, angsty Arsenal.
The biggest difference is that the Real Roy went into a coma for five years, while Clone-Roy started a family during said five years (and knew that he was a clone for nearly as long)
Meh. It's still better than One More Day.
Everything is better than One more day.....well except for Toxin:The Devil you know
God that was terrible.
It is? I've never read the clone saga or one more day but I've heard negative about both. I'll probably read them and compare the two to see which is worst
Fullmetal335 One's a messed up comic which leaves you confused for the most bit and the other is a story which destroys a perfect relationship which everybody loved (except the writer) with an equally convoluted plot which makes no sense and makes you wonder how someone like Spidey could make the decision he did. Now it's up to you to decide which one's worse.
ok thanks for letting me know :)
Really tho I suggest you just look up these shit stories on the net and not actually read them. There are so many good stuff you should read to get a good time. For starters, read stuff like Spider-Man: Blue and Kraven's Last Hunt if you haven't already.
Linkara brought me here.
he is a MAY-AHN!
Of course. Don't you know SCIENCE
only a SCIENCE MAJOR
10:20 "If we're making good books,I don't care if they sell poorly.I'm not gonna let marketing and sales tells us how to make comics"
This is literally the opposite of what Marvel is doing nowadays.
I love the idea of having a few clones about the place... would sure make answering these comments a 100 times more efficient haha.
But as far as the video goes I have said already on twitter that the cloning technique was done so well! These videos are getting better and better all the time, and they are a joy to watch!
You are Amazing brother thanks for your RUclips channel..as a long time comics fan...and nephew of a longtime former Marvel employee..I had no idea about what went on behind the scenes then.
As always editors are the biggest villains in every story
Overall, this was Marvel's largest misstep.
But hey, at least they fixed it later on! Even if it was only due to the massive backlash...
Though I thought that the reason Marvel killed off Gwen Stacey was because her character was bland and readers were starting to become uninterested in her.
"Gwen Stacey was because her character was bland and readers were starting to become uninterested in her."
They initially introduced her as a confident college student who had men wrapped around her finger, and was annoyed that the (self-absorbed) Peter Parker did not even notice her. Then they had her changed into a daddy's girl and typical good girl. Then they brutally killed her father, and depicted her as a traumatized nervous-wreck of a person. Way to go for characterization, by the House of Ideas.
"Clone Saga"
"Umm, Star Wars?
Kaine is my favorite Parker clone, his story was sad and his Scarlet Spider costume is dope af
I'm really glad they didn't let Norman stay dead; his appearances in Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, and Siege are some of his best, and most of those events wouldn't have happened without him.
I generally *liked* the Clone Saga of the 90s (it did go on too long, though). But One More Day was and is unforgivable. RIP Spider-Man 1962-2007.
This is my most despised moment in Spider-Man history, where Marvel gave the message that Peter Parker sucks, Ben Reilly rules, so support us in having Ben replace Peter.
+Benjamin Kemer When you put it that way, I'd go with that tactic. Ben Reilly became a much better character than Peter Parker during and after this storyline. Ben should have been declared once and for all: the true Peter Parker.
Ben Reilly was a better character to my opinion but they should've just stuck with Ben being a clone for the whole story
@@scinnyc at least we now got a Series of Ben reilly scarlet spider playin after The clone conspiracy.
What about the time Peter sold his marriage to the devil? Or the time he killed Mary Jane because of his radioactive sperm?
Lmao was it really called "Marvel Edge"?!
Hey Scott! After reading Ultimate Comics Spiderman and Superior Spiderman comics recently, I've learned of the existence of a lot of spider-men. If it isn't too much to ask, I would love to see you do some sort of compilation of every spider-man(or woman) ever!
Wow. This one video reveals the inside story of what drove me away from reading Spider-Man comic books and, became the beginning of a quick end for my entire comic book association. Amazing. I always knew it was Maximum Clonage, but now I know why and how.