Why Batman SHOULDN'T Fight Superman! || Comic Misconceptions || NerdSync
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
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In Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, the Dark Knight clashes with the Man of Steel for fear that Superman could destroy the planet and humanity as a whole if he ever turned evil. And while that sounds good on paper, it's more complicated than it might at first seem. In fact, maybe Batman SHOULDN'T fight Superman! We're diving into the philosophy of DC Comics' latest movie in their cinematic universe to see if the two titans really needed to fight at all.
Every Wednesday, Comic Misconceptions explores the incredible stories, fascinating ideas, and mind-blowing theories regarding comic books and the rich history and culture that surrounds them!
Hosted by Scott Niswander (@ScottNiswander)
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batman tolerates superman sounds like superman is just trying to annoy bats
Hahaha!
+cory leonard You have not lived until you've had the Man of Steel poop down your chimney...
From orbit.
+Cannon Productions why??? why would that happen? he's almost a fucking plant why would he even defacate?
cory leonard He because he still eats because it is pleasureful. Guy is still human, even if he wasn't born here.
+Cannon Productions Now I'm just reminded of that time Guy Gardener mooned Batman...while on the moon.
Just a reminder that I wrote and filmed this *BEFORE* I saw the movie. All I had to go off of were the trailers. All in all, we weren't too far off!
Have you seen the Film theorists episode on batman vs superman
ahhh that makes sense now
Batman is smart he always find a way hahaha Hi
#FourthWall
*SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!*
I actually REALLY love the twist that Luthor knew who they both were and manipulated them like puppets. It's like they heard everyone complain how easy it would be to deduce who Supes and bats were and said "yeah... you're right. let's do something with that."
Batman must of played too much injustice in this movie. XD
“Batman Tolerates Superman”
You just described Batman and Superman’s friendship in one sentence.
And deep down, "Batman Admires Superman"
superman lets him think so.
Batman will kill Superman but not Joker. Kinda off hypocritical.
+zeeamja1 We haven't seen Batman and Joker in the same movie yet, ya punk.
+Joshua Wayne You should have said we haven't seen them in the same movie yet in the DC Extended Universe
yeah it's weird that they're making Batman a utilitarian because if he was he wouldn't have a problem killing villains like joker (it would cause the most happiness for the most amount of people). Batman is known for having one rule, which is that he can't kill. This makes Batman traditionally more of a moral absolutist than anything else.
+AKG NERF Productions True. My bad.
Maybe he was testing him just saying.... Haven't watched the movie yet.
Did anyone else hear whitest selection of audiobooks at the beginning?
yes, yes we did
+Ezio Auditore Killed him
Yup
yup, glad I'm not the only one.
Yup
Batman and Superman both have mom's named Martha...how did I not know this before this movie lol
+TheKad33 I know! I didn't either:)
So much knowledge of comics and batman and superman over how many years... And of the obviousness of this fact... Yet only finally just fucking realising it😂😂😂 feeling so stupid... Like cmon... How did we not figure that out ages ago😂😂
+TheKad33 ... because so effing what? Do you kill Adolf Jones or lionize Bill Ghandi? No, names don't mean jack spit. It's the silliest thing ever for what happened in that scene to happen.
I've been aware of it for long years but never thought there would be such a great story inside such a simple idea
+TheKad33 I totally missed it also, even though it was so obvious when it happened.
Batman has no reason to assume Superman will become more powerful, so if he has the power to stop Superman at all then he has the power to stop him pretty much at any time. So he should only take down Superman if/when Superman actually demonstrates the intention to harm innocent people.
Otherwise it'd be like the police roaming around, breaking into gun owners' houses and killing them because there's a 1% chance those gun owners might someday harm innocent people with their guns.
*60%
+Stray Dog Batman recognizes Superman's restraint and uses that against him to fight him when he's not as likely to destroy him at first glace rather than later.
+Stray Dog your analogy is off somewhat in your scenario we can fight guns with guns but in supermans case who can fight a god? really bat man is the only person he knows of that could stand a chance and even then it was meticulously planed and relied on so much luck that there was a 1% chance it would work.
+Stray Dog
I agree. Kinda like since Superman is 99% chance of being a hero, bats should beat him up and brand him.
+Stray Dog The problem with that is that superman could destroy the Earth REALLY quickly. So quickly that humanity might not have a chance to react. Its more like going into a persons house and killing them for a nuclear bomb that they "weren't planning to use", instead of waiting for them to decide to use it
"And it looks like this Batman will pull that lever" yeah, unless someone's named Martha
*WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?*
@@phoemix7043 Everyone always edits it to be the screaming first. Batman silently goes first "Wh- Why did you say that name?". Caught by surprise and shocked, then it builds up to Bruce yelling and about to anger kill Superman
@@thenoirknight5729 Yep
@@thenoirknight5729 I mean.... its kinda stupid regardless, lol.
@@jasonGamesMaster Not really. I always find the people who laugh at that scene to be some psychopaths. No empathy!
I was so happy when you finally said “Pull the lever Kronk!”
Batman was in the wrong.. he's kind of the real villain of the movie
I think youre misunderstanding the thesis of this video.
Scott isnt debating whether or not the actions batman took in the movie is right or wrong, hes debating whether its right or wrong to even think about it. Its a hypothetical situation.
Batman needing to be snapped back to his senses was kind of the whole point of the middle act of the movie.
@@wk3820 thank you so much. So many people misunderstood "Dawn of Justice".
Hey, someone gets it 👍! Batman is intentionally meant as a borderline villain in the movie
He's soooooo worried about Superman but never cripples the Joker. Batman is just jealous of Supes. Superman reminds batman that no matter how much he trains, he's just a man. Everyday batman gets a little older, a little slower, his money means nothing, etc. while Superman continues to thrive. Batman is a failure at heart, he can't change Joker & ultimately, he'll never be Superman.
Batman doesn't get jealous.
+Jordan Lawe batman is a human and its clear.
+Moshuun That's an interesting way of viewing it. Superman is meant to be a larger-than-life character showing us just how far our morals can take us. Batman is essentially doing the same, but he finally met someone where his money, resources, and training mean nothing against. Basically, if mother nature was reincarnated and practically just as powerful as Superman if not more, Batman would view her as a threat and would require a contingency to handle her just in case. I wouldn't say he's jealous per say, but the thought of someone having the ability to wipe him off the planet in a moment's notice is terrifying when you're in their universe.
+It's Smash Time well, maybe not jealous but his ego is definitely fueling his feelings toward superman. If Batman had Supermans powers who knows what he would self-justify, in that position. His mortality almost keeps him rational, in a sense with Supermans case, the worlds mortality keeps him rational. Point being, Superman doesn't feel threatened by Batman at all, which is why he never kills him, Kryptonite or not. But Batman feels almost compelled to check Supes.
+Moshuun well he knows he can beat joker that's why he doesn't cripple him. Superman can do whatever he wants so batman is scared he is human like everyone else so he decides to fight him.
well yeah batman was fuckin wrong, he didn't thought for a second on superman's perspective
I just bought 10 comics for 6 dollars
Wow!
Tps or issues ?
+Adam Broad where?
+Bat Fan colloseum of comics florida, you can buy 10 random comics for $6
want to switch lives real quick?Adam Broad
wooww "he did that in a snap"
I think you missed the key points of the argument. What happens if batman kills superman and another villain or army of villains turn up who are as powerful as superman? It happened once so why not again? He knows there are more super powered beings out there yet is willing to risk leaving earth defenceless by killing superman on the off chance he may turn evil!? The thought process makes zero sense to me. Does he really think he could protect earth from all threats on his own?
Its a case by case issue with Batman. Its why Batman tries to be prepared for any and every case. Including the possible destruction of humanity at the hands of Superman. Thus, right here, right now, the threat is Superman, and therefore he requires an immediate response. The problem is, Batfleck Batman is just impatient.
Oh, and, if a stronger big bad shows up, whose to say Superman won't join their team? The thing is, Batman doesnt know Superman well enough to trust him.
@@bswtsp21 I'm going to repeat what he ask: Does he think he could protect Earth from all threats on his own?
Unless Batman has precognitive abilities, he's not gonna be able to do squat
@@kaihedgie1747 you seem to be thinking about it from a you standpoint, not a Batstandpoint.
@@kaihedgie1747 and yes, and even if he didnt think he could, its more of a testament to how suspicious and paranoid he is of everyone except himself.
"In a snap"? We're going to snapping neck puns now?
Also, what is up with that Spiderman behind his right shoulder?
I think it was in reference to Infinity War.
"Draw me like one of your french spiders"
Cas The Demon But this video was made before IW
Isn't this precisely why Batman keeps "contingencies"? He does not want to waste heroic potential, like those of Superman, nor does he want to be the judge of people before they turn to crime - because presuming someone is guilty before they are proven innocent is an unjust mindset to begin with.
But because there IS a 1% chance things could go south, he keeps his contingencies just in case so he has a chance to bring the situation in control. Isn't that the plot of Tower of Babel?
His testing sups simple as that his contingency will go into action depending on the actions sups takes when he fights him.
Everything you said is right. But, I think it's because you have a deeper more vast understanding of the Batman character than Zach Snyder. It comes across like he read FM's DKR (Only) and said.... Ok, I got this character down. Even his take on Superman is flawed. My god is the movie dark!!! Like beyond reason dark. They should take cues from CW, only in terms of presentation. Arrow is dark and brooding, getting more light now, but still. Flash is light, but not campy. That's the approach they shoulda had with Batman(dark) and Superman(light) it has already shown to be able to mesh well. But now we have killers as superheroes!!! Yaaaaay!!! Hahaha
What a well written episode. I love how you tied up the trolley problem into Batman Begins. Good stuff.
Great video! I think it would be good to note another fundamental flaw that the "Trolley Problem" and that is even with the "poetic justice" of pushing the villainous figure into the tracks or turning the lever that controls the tracks, you still have the option to jump on the tracks yourself. I realize it is a thought experiment and has set standards but Batman has shown himself to be the kind of man to jump in front of "The Trolley" numerous times when it comes to saving innocent lives. The Batman Endgame storyline shows this at the end where he sacrificed himself to save others. There have been countless times in comics, animated movies, cartoons, and live action movies that show Batman willing to sacrifice himself to save the lives of others. Batman generally wants to keep everyone safe, no matter good or bad, and would rather spare the lives of others rather than his own. I realize that Batman does kill every once in a while, but I'm talking more of a general idea of who Batman is. Even in the Justice League and JLU cartoons, you never see Batman back down from a fight and he throws himself at villains that he would never be a match for. Why? Because he is always looking out for the well-being of others rather than himself. Even at the end of Arkham City, the incredible video game, Batman tells Joker as Joker is dying, "You want to know something funny? Even after everything you've done... I would have saved you." In context, both Batman and the Joker were dying of an infection in their blood that only has one cure, Batman has the cure and gives half of it to himself and has the other half waiting for the Joker who stabs Batman in the arm causing him to drop the cure and the Joker dies. I think the fact that Batman shows he would have saved the Joker puts a large emphasis on Batman's value of life, no matter how corrupted that life may be. Which sums up Batman pretty nicely if you ask me.
Batmans motive in the Batman 'V' Superman movie was terrible... it wasn't something Batman would do in that situation
The World's Greatest Detective would discover in a background check what a hero Superman has been his whole life. Therefore, he would see Superman as a potential ally, not a threat.
Your argument is flawed. Movie batman is not the same person as comics batman, just like movie Superman is not the same as Comic Superman.
I never clicked on a notification faster
Dedication!
same
why?
Robin Gilliver no superman is but he can break his limits slowly.
If Batman has the power to kill Superman, doesn't that mean he has more power than Sups and is therefore a greater threat than Superman? If he understands that, shouldn't he kill himself using the same logic?
Its a paradox. Men with power are to proud of themselves. Why would Batman kill himself if he believes that he is the only hope for humanity. Same goes for Superman.
Its like people with guns. A gun can kill, and anyone can use a gun TO kill, but hey, if I have a gun, then I can stop a threat; OBVIOUSLY I'm not a threat cuz I'm me.
Isn't batman tolerates superman just a justice league movie?
Why Batman shouldn't fight Superman? Easy, so this movie never existed.
For the pushing a person in front of the tram to slow down and save five people why not jump in front of it. As Spock said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of a the few.
like.
+Everette Bradfute
Because then no one would be there to save the next batch of people. It obviously isn't going to be the guy over there doing nothing. :P
I found the utilitarian...
Everette Bradfute
The fact that we are acting at all implies that you are utilitarian. My statement was logic mixed with sarcasm.
+Everette Bradfute There are all kinds of ways around the trolley scenario; however, once you start allowing exceptions and reasoning around the problem, you start to defeat what's so fascinating about the way it makes us think. Most people when given that third option will usually take it (or say they would) because now there's an obvious, noble (and socially acceptable) out from having to choose between two evils.
When it's yourself versus five lives, people will almost universally choose to sacrifice themselves in the thought experiment. The agonizing comes into play when you're choosing between the lives of others. It makes us uncomfortable, and it makes us think.
Thought experiments are almost always nonsensical, but I love them regardless.
Batman shouldn't use emotions to make these decisions. Logic is key. Though superman may seem like the villain speaking to his villains is one of the main things batman does. If he were to talk to superman. He wouldn't fight him. Batman is smarter than that.
This "different" batman and superman are very alien to me
At 5:50(I have paused here), instead of Batman pushing anyone in front of the "tram", he could throw himself on to the tracks himself since all of this is of his own making.
Coming back to this video years later it's funny how the movie doesn't actually tackle any of these dilemmas. They fight for almost no concrete reason and Batman stops because Superman calls his mom by her first name.
Batman seems to opt for a more favorable third option by just developing countless contingency plans that act to neutralize and negate Superman and company from going rogue. Acting as a means to either prevent or minimize damage in this scenario without killing them.
Not a crazy idea but hopefully he doesn't let those plans fall into the wrong hands...
Oh, wait
Ben Riley Tower of Babel/ "Justice League Doom", anyone?
lol I thought he said the whitest selection of audiobooks XD
"Batman Tolerates Superman" is the not the unlikely companions sitcom we need, but it is the unlikely companions sitcom we deserve.
I just had to say this, the trolley allegory you mentioned could also fit or explain Superman's decision to kill Zod in Man of Steel. Zod was about to kill a family and Superman is trying to stop Zod from doing so. This family is, let's say, the group of people tied up in a railroad, and Zod is the one who tied them up(can't say that Zod is tied up in another railroad, but what the heck), and all Superman has to do is to push Zod into the railroad before a trolley/tram kills the people tied up in the railroad. And of course, Superman chooses to push Zod which means snapping his neck, because he believes that one death is always better than more, even though he regrets killing Zod a few seconds after doing it.
+adoboisnotwhite i guess but in this case batman is kinda going on a hunch whereas zod specifically said he was going to KILL everyone but yeah i totally get what you're saying
I would throw myself in thw way if the trian
That wouldn't stop the train.
IS EVERY VIDEO SPONSERED BY AUDIBLE?!
no
nicko bagaskara the question I don't mean it seriously
it feels like every youtuber is sponsored by audible
+Jerry
Kinda how I feel about Loot Crate.
Metaphorically, Superman is both the Tram/trolley and the person on the alternate track....
Batman shouldn't fight Superman because they are Super Best Friends.
agreed.
+Jonathan Luoto Batman and Robin are Friends
Supes and Bats are just colleagues
+EASY7356
I would say robin is less friends and more like family whereas supes is his friend...as much a Bruce Wayne can be friends with anyone IMO. His relationship with Jim Gordon is very similar!
no batman is wrong.
that's my problem with BVS, big fan of Batfleck by the way but his philosophy is pathetic, I get the idea of Plan B that if one day Supes goes rogue he has a plan to eliminate him by any means necessary to save humanity, but in BVS Supes is just saving people and whatnot, Batman clearly is way out of line, he is a hater of big powerful beings, he is basically Lex, BVS is very flawed movie, and Superman sucks at his job, he doesn't even know who Bruce Wayne is. lmao
In the comics there's always been that third track. Stay close to Superman, perhaps form a team of some sort with him and other "heroes" in order to learn their weaknesses, so that if he or any of them ever do turn on humanity, you're in position to act and stop them. And in the comics, before the New 52 at least, Superman was okay with that, going as far as giving Batman Lex Luther's kryptonite ring to use just in case he ever becomes a threat.
+NerdSync The real issue is that Batman in BvS is already off his trolley, making moral choices when he's already a become an unrepentant killer is different to the rational utilitarian that is described in your scenarios. Batman is already pushing groups or people into the paths of trolleys/trams/carts to prevent singular deaths... Batman just happens to justify this by using the mindset "a criminal is a suspicious & unredeemable lot".
who watched batman v superman i liked it did you
It was ok
it was great
yh
+Adam Adjerid It was worse than The Dark Knight, better than Man of Steel.
why does everyone hate the movie
Can someone answer this question for me how do Superman shave his beard
Shawn Henry uses is laser eyes through an mirror? Lol
That's correct. Superman shaves by reflecting his heat vision with a mirror.
"..and he did that with a snap. (keeps talking)" HAHAHA WAIT, I'M STILL LAUGHING FROM THAT PUN
"Batman Tolerates Superman" probably would have been a better movie.
I enjoyed the movie. It was somethings that I didn't like about it. But over all it was an enjoyable experience.
yeah I actually liked the movie
By the time Supes does go evil, what can Bats do to to stop him then? Millions of lives would be lost every moment. By the time he suits up, half the population could be gone. If Batflek does anything, he needs to do so as soon as possible. The ultimatum actually requires he act NOW and take the shot, or never do so.
"And he did that, in a snap", that was actually pretty funny. XD
Batman blocks his emotions, and there were very few heroic things that superman did, he just destroyed metropolis while dealing with personal problems that only concerns him. To batman, he's just taking down another villain, a crime boss killing his associates.
just call goku or saitama
+hater You must like anime too since you know about goku and saitama
>:D
First.
Cheater
Huzzah!
+NerdSync SHAZAM!
+DKlarations I litterally scrolled through ALL of the comments to see if this was really the first comment, it was! nice job bruh
What bugs me is that there was a much better direction they could have gone.They could easily have placed *Superman* as the aggressor, by imply playing up Bruce's collection of the Kryptonite as a preventative measure, and Superman construing it as a threat. I mean, yeah, it would have still been out of character for Clark, but the whole series has been, thus far.
Another reason for me to wait to see Batman v. Superman in the dollar theater.
Batman is my favorite marvel character!!!
I'm joking, so please don't hurt me...
Imagine batman in the marvel multiverse.
+BadilyCadily Videos "RUclips trolls are a superstitious and cowardly lot. So my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts. I must be a creature of the night, black, terrible..."
*thunder. lightning.*
+DoyouknowwhatIthink? well there sort of is. Wayne Williams. Stan Lee's batman. look it up, its terrible.
Batman vs. murdering psychopath with absolutely no regard for human life who constantly targets people and emotionally destroys Batman's own friends: "No, I Must Not Kill Him. It would take me down a Dark Path. I would Never Be the Same."
Batman vs. amicable alien who talks down actual suicidal people and just so happens to have world-destroying powers that he uses for good: "THIS MOTHERFUCKER'S GONNA DIE."
Seems legit.
Sidenote: if Batman's refusal to kill villains and insistence on throwing them into Arkham, which they just escape from, is a manifestation of a self-centered hero complex, thennnn a complete lack of reluctance to kill Superman might be because Superman is, y'know. Competition.
Thank god he said tram. I have no idea what a trolley was before this video (except shopping trolleys).
Someone once said to me, "No matter how you justify it murder is still murder".
Okay, "he did that in a snap" was your best pun as long as this show exists.
That video was almost 13 minutes long and I watched each-and-every-second of it. That good.
A more accurate train analogy would be this. The electric train (powered by a lead sealed krytonite battery) is barrelling down the tracks towards a fork in the tracks. There's no switch, because the whole thing is controlled remotely from the train by the conductor,(Superman, who's powerless as a mortal man due to a slight leak in the lead containment system.)
One path in the fork has the entire human race tied to the tracks and they will die if Superman chooses that path. The other fork is foggy and the path is unclear to anybody. The foggy path may be perfectly fine and get Superman to a STAR Labs facility where they'll use the kryptonite battery to create a new power source to lead to a golden age for all humanity. Or maybe there are five people tied to the track that will still die because Superman chose that path, or maybe Superman will blow the train up himself to save those five at the cost of his own life. Or maybe the tracks go over a cliff, leaving Superman to pointlessly die at the bottom in a huge kryptonite battery explosion. Or maybe the tracks lead to a big belly burger where Superman gets off the train, regains his powers and goes on to break the world record for most hamburgers eaten in a single minute. Path two is complete uncertainty.
Batman doesn't have a switch to the tracks, but instead has a switch to a bomb he planted on the tracks before the fork. If he presses the button as the train goes over the bomb, Superman dies and the word goes on as it was. If Batman lets the train pass, then maybe Superman chooses the first path and all humanity dies, or maybe he chooses the second and... who knows what happens
1:11 Scott you said supes wil will never turn on us... that is....until he's
1. mentally manipulated (say by poison ivy's toxin and kryptonite, or Darkseid)
2. turns evil due to artificial Kryptonite (in Superman 3 movie)
3. go insane because some Joker killed Lois Lane and his child
4. affected by some magical spell
Bruce may have subconsciously understood all these possibilities because, well, he's Batman.
Plus Bruce was getting old. He may not be around anymore when Supes go berserk. I don't think Bruce can pass away in peace when a potential menace, to whom the earth is a world made of cardboard, still lives. I can really really understand where Bruce was coming from.
+Idazmi7 bad writing or not it happened and he caused damage
Batman Tolerates Superman sounds like the cheesiest sitcom I’ve ever heard and I love it.
When you brought up the issue of proximity (pulling the lever vs. pushing the person onto the tracks), I couldn't help thinking of Milgram's obedience to authority experiments and how the subjects were more likely to push through to the end of the experiment if they were in the other room, while almost none of them did if they actually had to touch the person (I think by placing the person's hand into something that would shock them - it's been a while since I read the book, Obedience to Authority, but I do recall that increased proximity reduced the amount of pain the subject was willing to inflict, even though of course none of it was real).
And I don't wanna hear about how Milgram's experiment was unethical, because you're wrong.
I like how the original story of batman fighting supes wasnt about him completely beating superman, but showing he could be hurt and/or stopped, if in the case superman ever went rouge and needed to be stopped by the people.
I think that batfleck has paranoia because he envisioned that huge dream sequence from one man. The whole movie pointed towards him having some form of paranoia
I like your version of the trolley experiment with the fog better than the first, Is that weird?
(Still haven't seen the movie yet)
I think your conclusion missed one crucial detail, the risk versus the reward. Superman has the power to destroy everyone and everything. If he does, no good deed, including saving everyone and everything, is worth that risk. If Superman saved the planet a million times, but had a bad day and decided to destroy it, the million times he saved the planet would not make up for the one time he chose to destroy it.
Ultimately, I do not think Batman's logic is correct because technically anyone has the potential for great evil, it's only when they've displayed that potential should you begin to act though there is nothing wrong with take safety precautions. Still, I think it's worth noting that rescuing life does excuse the causing of death.
This video was especially good Scott. I lost it at the lever joke, had to take like 5 minutes, because I was laughing so hard.
An interesting topic and it got me thinking. There are so many levels and points of views in this topic. Maybe you should exlore a few in future videos :)
It's not as clear cut as "he's our enemy/ he's our savior". The real danger is if he ever thinks he knows whats best for humans, that he should rule them.
Batman tolerates Superman sounds like the name of a soap opera of something
batman's mental condition was unstable due to the death of jason todd. in the movie he chose to hesitate less killing people. and even use guns. buat in the end his mind was cleared once more. while people are hatin the movie, im okay with it, and waits calmly for the next justice league movie..
Why don't I just fling myself?
In the Batman Begins scene you reference in this vid couldn't Bats grab Ras al gul then derail the train?
Maybe - Probably. Batman likely could have grappled Roz out of the train with himself, but Batman chose to epically glide out by himself
even if the other track was empty I wouldn't pull the lever
Wait, why?
@@thenoirknight5729 why not ?
@@Leo-iZ177 Because it wouldn't be right. You have a choice, and you're letting people die just because. It is not right, not kind, not decent
@@thenoirknight5729 not just because, i am letting them die because i chose it
I think I've either heard or read somewhere before Batman vs Superman ever came out that Bats always kept a hidden stash of kryptonite on him just in case Supes ever went rogue, but for the time being he hasn't had the need to use it. Not the first time Bats and Supes have ever duked it out, either, as I recall.
It's a classic pub argument, Batman vs Superman, who would win? Me, I think Supes'd wipe the floor with Bats, but Bats is such a brilliant tactician and bad-ass fighter he'd make the task difficult, and thus interesting to watch (hell, I think Lex Luthor and The Joker would likely be munchin' on popcorn and making bets on who would win the whole time, though I doubt they'd want front row seats to this particular bout, you really don't want to be in the same zip code when Supes starting slinging heat rays from his eyes and tossing chunks of skyscraper).
Batman: do you bleed? Superman: Nothing on your planet is capable of making me do so, but yes. (flies away)
That train problem is similar to another dilemma where a loved one is tied on a side track while a felled bridge awaits it on the main line. You have the ability to switch the train away from plummeting into a valley floor. Do you do nothing and save your loved one? Or: flick that switch and save the packed passenger train? Logic dictates: one should do nothing to avoid the charge of murder being leveled at you - even if that switch had already been pulled to divert it from danger (putting your loved one in harms way). In action is not a crime. No one can force you to be a hero. That's why the general rule is not to negotiate with hostage takers; or, commit a crime because your life or another is on the line (you'll have to rely on the mercy of the court should you do so).
Scott - "You and I both know that Superman is the Big Blue Boyscout. he would never turn on us like that"
Me - *cough* red kryptonite *cough*
Hey Scott,
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode as I have ones in the past. This one particularly, though, stood out as not only interesting, but troubling. I am fascinated with the idea of the trolley dilemma and I agree with the modifications made, but I would add yet one more.
let's recap, so we have batman beside a weakened superman as a trolley speeds into the fog which may or may not include the world's population. shoving superman will definitely stop the danger. if I am wrong here correct me, but I believe this is the point where it is left.
while I like this, I feel like there is a last factor, the good sized chance that batman might not be able to push superman onto the tracks. this will be a close fight (If not favoring supes anyways) and so I feel it would be an easier choice to make the sacrifice if you know there is a chance it won't work anyways. this would be like pushing the one man onto the tracks, but being uncertain as to whether or not it will stop the trolley! if you would just think about it, that would be nice. I find this fascinating.
before I go, counterpoint: the act of pushing superman and it maybe not killing him may increase the odds of him destroying the world. it may piss him off. who knows.
thanks,
your friendly neighborhood fan
I know you haven't seen it at the time of recording but Bruce and Alfred reflected on this in the movie. A
Fred tried to talk Bruce out of fighting superman because its almost suicide and even if he kills superman how does he know that he would've turned against humanity. Bruce interates by saying something like "even if the percentage is low we have to treat it like its 100% because it involves the entire human race"
@NerdSync I would love to see you do one on whether superman would survive the avada kedavra curse. Think about it; how does the curse kill? In the book the only way to survive the curse, besides being Harry Potter, is to move a physical object between yourself and the curse. Would superman physically be able to take the hit? We know that magic can hurt superman, but can it kill him? You would have to research on how the killing curse works first, I think.
since you brought it up in the video the answer to the trolley question on the video and the podcast is: context is everything
When Batman was part of the justice league, he had used his skills to develop contingency plans in case any member of the league went rogue. This is the reason why Batman was kicked out of the league. He had every one of these super heroes' weakness I.e. A shard of kryptonite for superman, etc. the league thought that one person should not have so much power over them, even though that person was just a meager human in a suit. Before he left, superman asked him why he did this? Batman said that such superior beings should not have complete control. That if they ever decided to turn against Earth, then he(Batman)would be there to prevent it. Superman asked why he didn't have a contingency plan in case Batman himself went rogue. Batman simply stated that he did, it was the Justice League. Even Batman himself doesn't trust the power he has, even though he fights for the side of good. He trusts that the League will watch to make sure he stays in his place while he will do the same for them
Batfleck is an obsessive person. A brilliant but emotionally complicated man.
That is true. This pretty much describes any Batman really
funny, I actually have a physical copy of Batman and Philosophy, and have had it for a couple years lol so kinda neat to hear you mention it so fondly in these recent videos.
I don't think Batman should do either. There is a middle ground here, and it's the most Batman thing to do, preparation. Just like in the Tower of Babel storyline he could simply use his vast intellect to make plans in case Superman ever does go rogue. Now admittedly, he should have told the League what he was doing, not gave them the details but explained the necessity of these plans, in that story. I think it would be even easier with Superman because if anyone is afraid of his power, it's Clark. I'm sure he would be ok with those plans and ok that it's Batman executing them because he knows he'd go through with it. But that's just my two cents
I think a better version of the trolley car experiment is to put fog on one track with the earth possible in that fog and one with superman on it. Behind Superman is also fog where the earth could also be, if you were to pull the lever to kill Superman you could also be killing the world.But instead of only the 2 options of either pulling the lever or not their should a third. The third option is untying Superman and letting him help you save the others. I think that fits this scenario much better. If you kill Superman you could be dooming the world that is behind him on the track. But if you untie him either he could help you save the world or you just doomed it by not pulling the lever.
Here's a more complex version of the trolly problem:
If the trolly continues toward the 5 people, they have a 50% chance of dying, however the 1 person will always die.
The Roger Fischer suggestion reminded me of Ned Stark when he executes crimminals
The problem is that the trolley problem assumes that no matter what the outcome is, the person pushing the person or pulling the lever is unaffected by any outcome either way. Batman as a human being is also tied to the trolley tracks since if everyone dies, Bruce is no exception therefore killing superman is sorta self defense.
another thing to point out in Fisher's "Nuke Code" idea is that the president, having spent so much time with the volunteer, would most likely become good friends with him/her to the point where they would have an incredibly difficult decision to make, launch nukes and save the country or don't launch the nukes and save your friend.
In my AP Psychology class in high school, our professor asked us the pushing someone version of the Trolley problem. No one knew how to answer so of course I was called on, because that's what happens when you're an A student. I had no idea how to answer until I noticed a loophole. "I jump in front of the train and slow it myself."
I know this isn't the point of the question, but my teacher just took the answer and gave me extra credit. xD
When I heard "Holly here we go again, Batman" I was expecting the NerdSync Podcast theme tune to start playing.
I got thinking about the analogy. What if you're the one that's on the second rail, will you pull the level? What about when you have to push yourself in front of the train? Will the resulst be the same? Will you jump in front of the train to save five people? In both cases you have the options of suicide and survival, but in one you're either saving yourself or the others and in the second options you either sacrifice or let the others die. Your choice.
To me, batman is more of a symbol of hope to humans than superman. He shows what a human can do in the world, that's something superman could never do since he isn't human.
Batman is both a symbol of hope and a symbol of fear. He is a beacon of hope for Gotham, but a supernatural being of terror to the criminal element.
Superman is actually a human anyway, emotionally and mentally. He had what was essentially a normal childhood too
Batman should be prepared to kill Superman, not kill him before he turns evil
This goes into a subject I didn't have time to touch on called pre-punishment, and whether that's ever justified.
Another take on this problem discussed is found in Fate/Zero where Emiya (the "protagonist") is faced with similar scenario.
Lets say there only 500 people left in the world. The fate of all humanity lies within the hands of these 500 people. But they are on two different ships. One ship has 300 people and other the remaining 200. Both the ships run into severe malfunction and Emiya is the only one who can fix it, but he has time to fix only one. So obviously, Emiya chooses to fix 300 one. But the ship with 200 have taken him hostage and they are forcing him to fix their ship (due to their selfish tendencies). Now Emiya kills the 200 people, escapes the ship and fixes the 300.
A few days later, 300 ship people had decided to split into 200 and 100. Same scenario occurs as above. So the question is, how far can this cycle go? And in the end did he even have a choice in the first place.
"I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." - Bats
Why doesn't he apply this tactic to The Joker? He's saved The Jokers' life numerous times. The next time The Joker falls off a building, why doesn't Bats just let him fall? Why does Batman feel a need to save The Jokers' life?
MsClenny1036 emotional attachment😕
You also have to take into account what this version of Batman has seen. I haven't seen the movie yet but from the trailers it seems this Batman has definitely been on the job for a while. He's probably experienced some of the most famous Batman moments already. He's seen two-face go bad, he's probably faced Ra's al ghoul who's a well intentioned extremist, and he's probably already had the "one bad day" talk with Joker.
I'm willing to bet that this Batman knows that even if Superman has the purest of hearts that it would only take a moment of weakness to either go evil or pull an Injustice and go all dictator on humanity.
Really hope you do a Review of the film. Or at least talk about the changes the film made in "cannon".
As for the video. I think the problem falls back to Batman's "Code". Batman /could/ make the decision easily if he doesn't have his no kill code because the Dark Knight is very logical in the way he goes about things (like your example about Bats not saving while "not killing"). But "cannon" Batman would end up treating this like the Joker and trying to lock Superman up in a special containment cell.
However because BvS clearly shows that the Code is absent for Batfleck, it's now much easier for him to take that step against Supes. The Dark Knight is Judge, Jury, Executioner - Random moment of day-dreaming about X-Cutioner's Song - and can make that decision.
you could POSSIBLY save both parties with the lever by quickly alternating the lever and, therefore, track. this COULD MAYBE unbalance the trolley and crash it POSSIBLY saving both the one and five people on the track. although crashing trams/trolleys have their own consequences, because... passengers.