AoE2 does seem to do this weird thing where it partially overshadows unique units by buffing similar units for that civ to the point it's hard to tell if it's worth using the unique one. Like how Magyars get the Huszar, but their Hussars are cheaper so you might prefer those anyway. Unless the unique unit offers something truly spectacular it might just be worth sticking with basic units. Just an interesting thing to have to think about.
Agreed, they could instead just make Unique units replace their corresponding units as an upgrade, so in this case upgrading Light Cavalry to Magyar Huszars in the same way as Winged Hussars work for Poles and Lithuanians.
This might be an interesting topic for spirit of the law to cover actually. Which unique unit is least worth it to build over its vanilla counterpart or something
@@Boethion yeah they are sleeping on that one, and give the magyar a cooler castle unique unit. There are mentions of hungarian warriors carrying both a lance and a bow. We could have another melee/ranged hybrid unit, this time on foot, it would be so cool. They also mention really good front armor on the horses, which could be another idea for a unique unit (or maybe even the Huszar could have a special defense against projectiles when facing the enemy)
I don't know that the Huszar is a good example -other than being light cavalry, it fits a different role than the regular Hussars, being less conversion-resistant but far better against siege. Huszars feel more niche-y, but they certainly have a role in, for instance, defending the castle they're produced out of from precisely the type of siege that's used against said castles.
@@Boethion This would be a good case for AoE3's "tiered" approach to unique units. The European civs for example have both unique units which replace a generic unit line entirely, and then they have "royal guard" units which _also_ replace a generic unit line, but are mostly identical except for slightly better stats.
As far as I understand most of Cabral's fleet were carracks. While Caravels were used extensively in expiration, Cabral's primary mission was to trade in India so the larger Carracks were the bulk of the fleet.
One very niche thing about caravels is that they can be decent naval support for land battles. If you’re fighting near the coast, your caravels essentially become weaker scorpions that are mostly safe from melee units. It’s really not much, but it is probably one of the better ships for shore bombardment (against units).
Yeah, I actually remember putting a group of 30 Caravels near a choke point (a bit of land, surrounded by water on either side), and they were very nicely killing enemy Cavaliers :D
@@Progeusz- Except both Galleon and Caravel deal 12 damage when fully upgraded XD The only reason Galleon has higher damage against ships is because it has higher BONUS damage against ships. Against land units, their damage is the exact same - 8+4. Meaning Caravel will be better.
Thank you! I jumped into the comments hoping to see more about this. I was hoping for that section... Maybe in the update video somewhere down the road :) 11. Love you Spirit, thanks for all the killer videos
@@BelialTnTn Makes sense. As the wood descends it's potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, so when it hits the water it expends that kinetic energy to displace it. However, the water is denser, and so after the energy of the wreckage is expended it's "bounced" back to the surface by the pressure of the water.
It's not like we are aware of any American Siege weapons, or have detailed records of what might have been used in south east Asia. so yeah, a lack of uniqueness makes sense. still want Chinese to get a gunpowder rocket unit for their University, pump out some Onager type piercing damage with a bonus against buildings, I know they don't need them, but they would be fun, particularly when the Koreans get the same unit
To offset this buff: make the increased range to be their max damage range rather than the max targetable range, and make the passthrough damage more consistent with the targeted distance
honestly this really showcases how badly water needs a rework. there's 3 generic ship types and 4 unique units, and almost every matchup is a decisive win or loss based on invisible bonus damage and armor. also the Caravel feels particularly pointless since it competes for the exact same role as the Galleon, unlike the Longboat or Turtle ship which have unique roles (raiding/tanking)
@@paulodelima5705no? Caravels cost more, have the same range (and arguably lower damage), less HP _and_ armor You would be much better with Fire Ships, since they are cheaper as well as being generally more useful in combination with Galleons
I think water in general is fine. It is a fairly heavy rock paper scissors, but you are never fleshing it out as much as land so that way makes sense. Now, unique units may be less clear. But the same exists for a large portion of unique units on land. It seems to me that the Caravel has a niche on more choked water maps but is generally a not as good Caravel. Maybe the Caravel could do with a bit of balancing, but it is also on a civ with an amazing unique unit and some great bonuses so I don't see an issue with it being pretty niche.
The caravel in my opinion is a good flanker if your in combat and tricks your opponent in engagement you can swoop around and do a lot of damage in to the line of enemy ships
I've always wished boats were done just like.. totally differently in AoE. Seeing like 50 ships sink in 30 seconds always rubbed me wrong. Would be so much more cinematic if they were like 4x more expensive and had waaaaay more HP
same with castles honestly. twice as expensive, but far stronger and rather than break they become razed, meaning that anyone can rebuild it and take it over. positioning would be way more important then.
Seems like bringing their trajectory starting point down could buff them without changing any of their other stats? It will make they shot normally when their enemies are up close.
In some of those examples if you could sail around the side and get a few units on either flank and start firing That way you could use their pass through quite effectively
I would say having a galleon caravel naval squadron would do wonders; galleons be the bait while the caravels attack from the sides where they stack up the most.
Something I wish could have been explored more would be it's hit-and-fun value. M thinking is, if you engage a group of units and used hit an run tactis, it prevents those units from falling into a line formation and they will bunch up as they chase you, making better use of the the pass-through damage and theoretically longer range from pass-through. Maybe I'm wrong but would love to see it.
It seems that a good tactic for a large enough water map is to use Galleys as a front line, and Caravels to flank the enemy and attack while they are lined up to attack the galleys.
It stands to reason then portugese should use galleons in a line and a small group of caravels as a flanking unit (which is possibly the first time I hear about actual tactics and positioning (not counting the "sg goes forward" basic idea) in naval warfare especially in this game - which is awesome!).
Hi @SpiritOfTheLaw and everyone else: Have you noticed that since the last update it's not possible to use a group of onagers with shift+click, e.g. to cut down a tree line? Only one onager in the group will execute the second and subsequent queued commands. I've noticed the same thing with shift+clicking on enemy buildings, if I have a group of 10 onagers that are supposed to go through multiple buildings, all but one of them will also drop the queue, the rest will just stop or start attacking something else.
Guess it goes against common water battle wisdom, but would be curious to see how mixed fleets do here, i.e. throwing in a few caravels and trying to micro them to line up good shots while your and your foe's galleons fight it out.
Maybe making the caravels a bit faster that galley could help ? If you rush with your caravels next to the galleys, they might stack instead of spreading when firing at them
I Choose Portuqueese in the Western European Diplomacy Map, and create a fleet from Caravels, when the numbers are high they are extremely strong, and in the map, most of the land have access from the sea, and main trade routes are also located in the sea so having control over it creates alot of impact, also Feitorias and Cheaper Gold Costs are usefull in the map when the resources expires
caravels are useless on that map because any good player knows the only 2 ships you can use are demos and canon galleons. the map is essentially a demo micro war on water, its a waste of res to make any other unit albeit canon galleons ofc.
thank you. the most under reported worst unique unit. samurai: counters all unique units (if danger close). caravels: counter 1 unique unit (only if massed).
well, from what i can see in the video i can tell that caravels probably were intended to use with some strategy to them, for example if you move the wing part of the caravel "say in a line formation battle" you could slowly with hit and run move to the side of the enemy line and hit through their whole line from that side. in other words if it's a 40 vs 40 battle i'd say attempting to move 5-10 caravels on the far ends of the line to hit through the enemy galleons line from the side would probably change the results.
I've seen some comments on Reddit that say you didn't mention how Caravels are great against land-based units. On maps like Golden Swamp, they're like a super-tanky Scorpion with the speed of a Knight, even if they don't deal as much damage.
I like to deathball my Caravels with Galleons and a few Fire Ships, then when the enemy ships line up to shoot back, I just double click a Caravel and flank the now perfectly lined up enemy ships. The fire ship and Galleon durability protects the fleet while the Caravels become the heavy hitters.
Didn't know Teutonic Knights can float on water. They must be pretty light xD So Caravels are basically that cliche thing teachers love to show. One stick is easily breakable, but bunch of them? They're much stronger
Ships also get significantly more easily stacked in rivers, making the caravels superior in maps without large water spaces and in chokepoints, especially against ground units.
I really wish the AoE2 devs do a small buff of the naval part of portuguese, since portuguese is THE naval civ historically, specially at the time AoE2 takes place. I'm mostly talking about the Caravels and a little about the cannon galleon. Caravels should be significantly faster, and I think their cannons should be a little stronger. I would not change their galleons tho, they are already top tier. If I could, I would also make another unique ship unit created and widely used by the portuguese, named Nau (I believe the name in english is Carrack? or was it ship of the line? sorry fellas, I really could not find a definite answere about it). While most used for transport of cargo and people, the portuguese also made ones for war, with 3 masts and something between 80 and 120 guns, depending of it's classification (1st line usually had 100-120). they where slower than caravels but carried more weight.
Wouldn't caravels do better against fire ships when microing them compared to microing galleons due to their pass-through bolts? I think that case should have been analysed.
I think the idea here is that the caravel is a suppliment to your galley line, not a replacement. You would engage the enemy gallies with your own and once they are all lined up flank them with a group of caravels. It would be interesting to see how effective is it in such situations, like if the elite upgrade is skipped in imperial.
@@The-jy3yq Sure but still, the video is kind of missing the point by comparing massed gallies vs caravels as they don't fill the same role. Seeing how effective they are in different situations when supporting other ships would be more interesting.
i assume they would be better if you micro them since you can get them in a better position or it would force opponent to micro which apearantly is better than oponent A-moving. the question i wanted to know i guess was would i be better to mix galley and caravel (or just stick with one) or does the ai do something stupid and puts the caravel infront if you mix them?
Portugese are part of the ring of shame, next to Berbers and Malay, they do not have very useful civ bonuses either team bonuses, in going above and beyond their organ gun do become long range shotguns... but that's it.
Portuguese, Berbers and Malay are all great civs with many different bonuses benefitting them. Port gold discount is very useful, benefits all kinds of units, gives them versatility - and berry bonus makes their early eco good too. Malay faster uptime is gamechanging for both military and economy reasons and that bonus alone is enough to pick them in many maps over any other civ. Berbers have the best cavalry spam which is incredibly useful.
I think you've done this video before, bulk vs hybrid navy, but I could see fire ships upfront, galleys in a line, caravels flanking. Is this best case scenario even possible pvp? probably not.
Frankly, I would prefer Caravels to have a weaker shorter-range cannon attack and 1.3 speed of war gally but 20% less hp rather than any of the current unique applications.
Caravels are better against a big number of units while Galleons are better agianst a small one. Shouldn t a mix of both of them be the better composition?
so the caravels are good for bunch up units? what is the strategy here? make caravels and pray i find those? or is that strategy of bunching up ships so normal you can guarantee the use of caravels?
I dont like this unit. Especially the aspect of how the bolts have different performance depending on the unit targeted. That shouldnt be that niche and hard to use. This unit should be reworked, give it extra vision and let it be a "gunpowder unit" so it can benefit from other bonuses Imho.
You talk about micro a lot in this vid but never tried to micro the Caravels themselves: If the enemy isn't stacking their ships against you, they follow you instead, that's when they _will_ stack up due to how aggressive stance works.
AoE2 does seem to do this weird thing where it partially overshadows unique units by buffing similar units for that civ to the point it's hard to tell if it's worth using the unique one. Like how Magyars get the Huszar, but their Hussars are cheaper so you might prefer those anyway. Unless the unique unit offers something truly spectacular it might just be worth sticking with basic units. Just an interesting thing to have to think about.
Agreed, they could instead just make Unique units replace their corresponding units as an upgrade, so in this case upgrading Light Cavalry to Magyar Huszars in the same way as Winged Hussars work for Poles and Lithuanians.
This might be an interesting topic for spirit of the law to cover actually. Which unique unit is least worth it to build over its vanilla counterpart or something
@@Boethion yeah they are sleeping on that one, and give the magyar a cooler castle unique unit. There are mentions of hungarian warriors carrying both a lance and a bow. We could have another melee/ranged hybrid unit, this time on foot, it would be so cool. They also mention really good front armor on the horses, which could be another idea for a unique unit (or maybe even the Huszar could have a special defense against projectiles when facing the enemy)
I don't know that the Huszar is a good example -other than being light cavalry, it fits a different role than the regular Hussars, being less conversion-resistant but far better against siege. Huszars feel more niche-y, but they certainly have a role in, for instance, defending the castle they're produced out of from precisely the type of siege that's used against said castles.
@@Boethion This would be a good case for AoE3's "tiered" approach to unique units. The European civs for example have both unique units which replace a generic unit line entirely, and then they have "royal guard" units which _also_ replace a generic unit line, but are mostly identical except for slightly better stats.
The original Come to Brazil machine
I guess more like "Go to India" gone wrong 😅
As far as I understand most of Cabral's fleet were carracks.
While Caravels were used extensively in expiration, Cabral's primary mission was to trade in India so the larger Carracks were the bulk of the fleet.
One very niche thing about caravels is that they can be decent naval support for land battles. If you’re fighting near the coast, your caravels essentially become weaker scorpions that are mostly safe from melee units. It’s really not much, but it is probably one of the better ships for shore bombardment (against units).
Yeah, I actually remember putting a group of 30 Caravels near a choke point (a bit of land, surrounded by water on either side), and they were very nicely killing enemy Cavaliers :D
Galleons are better at that job thanks to higher attack. Especially against armored enemies like cavalry.
@@Progeusz- Except both Galleon and Caravel deal 12 damage when fully upgraded XD
The only reason Galleon has higher damage against ships is because it has higher BONUS damage against ships.
Against land units, their damage is the exact same - 8+4. Meaning Caravel will be better.
Thank you! I jumped into the comments hoping to see more about this. I was hoping for that section... Maybe in the update video somewhere down the road :) 11. Love you Spirit, thanks for all the killer videos
They are clearly useful, at least visually, they have the coolest death/destruction animation in aoe2
I just noticed it for the first time following your comment but, don't they seem to bounce a few times before they sink?
Yeh i noticed that too but it's looks cool 😅 @@BelialTnTn
@@BelialTnTn Makes sense. As the wood descends it's potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, so when it hits the water it expends that kinetic energy to displace it. However, the water is denser, and so after the energy of the wreckage is expended it's "bounced" back to the surface by the pressure of the water.
Thank you T90 for teaching me this is true, and you for reminding me! 11
Why do all the other ships have destruction animations except the galley line it’s so weird
So basically, AOE2 gets rid of most or all of the real-world advantages of Caravels in exchange for a novelty mechanism with niche applications.
More like, for balancing reasons.
Or China would have a lot of things they invented and they dont have ingame
@@Mexican00b And a LOT of civs wouldn't have trebuchets and knights
It's not like we are aware of any American Siege weapons, or have detailed records of what might have been used in south east Asia. so yeah, a lack of uniqueness makes sense. still want Chinese to get a gunpowder rocket unit for their University, pump out some Onager type piercing damage with a bonus against buildings, I know they don't need them, but they would be fun, particularly when the Koreans get the same unit
lMao Zedong
@@Mexican00b Covid pandemic tech would be OP in the middle ages.
I've always voiced the opinion that the angle matters. Thank you foe highlighting this, Mr Lawful Spirit
Angle, speed, depth and stamina. All important for a successful Caravel deployment.
The Caravels are such an odd design choice. They should be fast long range gunpowder snipers and not what ever the fuck this is.
Exactly what i expected back in the day. Then it turned out to be a buggy scorpion -.-
Right? I actually wanted them to be the hand cannoneer of the sea.
@@Ayy_Doll_Fiddler that turned out to be spanish cannon galley
You'll have to resort to AoE3 for that!
Exactly they should be the Conq or the janissaries of the water
Now I want to know how useful are teutonic knights if they walk on water.
If only Barbarossa could have walked on water...
@@T-West👋👋😔
@2:40 I knew it. Jesus was a Teutonic Knight
my thought for a follow up would be as a flanking force, lines of gallies, but carvels as a flanker, you would get the pass though more.
I think they could distinguish Caravels more from the galley line: allow attack-ground and increase range by +1
To offset this buff: make the increased range to be their max damage range rather than the max targetable range, and make the passthrough damage more consistent with the targeted distance
Increase their speed
I find funny that the Galleon's death animation is the classic one while the caravel has a more detailed one
honestly this really showcases how badly water needs a rework. there's 3 generic ship types and 4 unique units, and almost every matchup is a decisive win or loss based on invisible bonus damage and armor. also the Caravel feels particularly pointless since it competes for the exact same role as the Galleon, unlike the Longboat or Turtle ship which have unique roles (raiding/tanking)
Caravels is a suport for galleons, not a replacement.
@@paulodelima5705no?
Caravels cost more, have the same range (and arguably lower damage), less HP _and_ armor
You would be much better with Fire Ships, since they are cheaper as well as being generally more useful in combination with Galleons
I think water in general is fine. It is a fairly heavy rock paper scissors, but you are never fleshing it out as much as land so that way makes sense.
Now, unique units may be less clear. But the same exists for a large portion of unique units on land. It seems to me that the Caravel has a niche on more choked water maps but is generally a not as good Caravel.
Maybe the Caravel could do with a bit of balancing, but it is also on a civ with an amazing unique unit and some great bonuses so I don't see an issue with it being pretty niche.
@@88porpoise both the Rome at War mod and the Chronicles DLC have proven that you can make water significantly more interesting
The caravel in my opinion is a good flanker if your in combat and tricks your opponent in engagement you can swoop around and do a lot of damage in to the line of enemy ships
enfilade!
Now the Japanese civ overview is going to be a real surprise!!
You forgot to discuss their most exceptional area of performance - mulching hapless land units that venture into range of the shore
I've always wished boats were done just like.. totally differently in AoE. Seeing like 50 ships sink in 30 seconds always rubbed me wrong. Would be so much more cinematic if they were like 4x more expensive and had waaaaay more HP
Basicaly aoe3 water. Its interesting but boils down to retreat micro and later on artilery, as those deal massive damage vs anything boat
same with castles honestly. twice as expensive, but far stronger and rather than break they become razed, meaning that anyone can rebuild it and take it over. positioning would be way more important then.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 that's a cool idea, a building you can destroy and then rebuild for cheaper, even if it has worse stats or something
Seems like bringing their trajectory starting point down could buff them without changing any of their other stats? It will make they shot normally when their enemies are up close.
No. Because that also lowers the distance traveled when aiming at far targets.
@@henke37 Is that because of parabolic trajectory? Then how they could make it work for Land Scorpions?
@@henke37 It does not.
How cool would a naval organ gun unit be?
In some of those examples if you could sail around the side and get a few units on either flank and start firing
That way you could use their pass through quite effectively
They're basically useless with the way they're currently designed. Water power creep made them a waste of resources
I’d love to see galleon’s projectile change after researching chemistry to Hussite wagon’s projectile. 🙌🏻
I would say having a galleon caravel naval squadron would do wonders; galleons be the bait while the caravels attack from the sides where they stack up the most.
Something I wish could have been explored more would be it's hit-and-fun value. M thinking is, if you engage a group of units and used hit an run tactis, it prevents those units from falling into a line formation and they will bunch up as they chase you, making better use of the the pass-through damage and theoretically longer range from pass-through. Maybe I'm wrong but would love to see it.
I don't care if it's not as strong on paper, I have nothing but love for my little baby caravels~
Hey guys, Caravel of the law here!
X Doubt
Hey
Pirates of the Caravel
It seems that a good tactic for a large enough water map is to use Galleys as a front line, and Caravels to flank the enemy and attack while they are lined up to attack the galleys.
It stands to reason then portugese should use galleons in a line and a small group of caravels as a flanking unit (which is possibly the first time I hear about actual tactics and positioning (not counting the "sg goes forward" basic idea) in naval warfare especially in this game - which is awesome!).
Hi @SpiritOfTheLaw and everyone else: Have you noticed that since the last update it's not possible to use a group of onagers with shift+click, e.g. to cut down a tree line? Only one onager in the group will execute the second and subsequent queued commands. I've noticed the same thing with shift+clicking on enemy buildings, if I have a group of 10 onagers that are supposed to go through multiple buildings, all but one of them will also drop the queue, the rest will just stop or start attacking something else.
solution: either make the caravel cheaper or have more range
And a little faster.
I say make them cheaper and faster but less durable..
Teutonic Jesus 2:45
Would be a nice touch if caravels had better line of sight, just for the history trivia
I think the bigger use for caravels is as a second group to flank a line formed up for a more standard battle.
kind of question isabella I and ferdinand II would say
The Caravel bolt in the demonstration at 3:00 appears to be consistently traveling 50% further than the unit targeted.
Berbers overview definitely incoming next!
Guess it goes against common water battle wisdom, but would be curious to see how mixed fleets do here, i.e. throwing in a few caravels and trying to micro them to line up good shots while your and your foe's galleons fight it out.
Maybe making the caravels a bit faster that galley could help ? If you rush with your caravels next to the galleys, they might stack instead of spreading when firing at them
We got the Portuguese overview (updated) before Teutons overview (updated)
This is your mandatory comment of :"We are getting the 🇵🇹 Portuguese Overview Next." 🤣🫰🏻
And there will be someone who will demand Teutons again.. 🤣🤣🤣
@@jotfohm4644 Deus vult
We realy need a UU ship tierlist.
The title sounds like: "what if they had RUclips in XV century?"
I Choose Portuqueese in the Western European Diplomacy Map, and create a fleet from Caravels, when the numbers are high they are extremely strong, and in the map, most of the land have access from the sea, and main trade routes are also located in the sea so having control over it creates alot of impact, also Feitorias and Cheaper Gold Costs are usefull in the map when the resources expires
caravels are useless on that map because any good player knows the only 2 ships you can use are demos and canon galleons.
the map is essentially a demo micro war on water, its a waste of res to make any other unit albeit canon galleons ofc.
@@apan990 I use spanish Galleons and their trading bonus as well
thank you. the most under reported worst unique unit.
samurai: counters all unique units (if danger close).
caravels: counter 1 unique unit (only if massed).
I would like to see a team up between caravels and galeons to see if anything unexpected happens
well, from what i can see in the video i can tell that caravels probably were intended to use with some strategy to them, for example if you move the wing part of the caravel "say in a line formation battle" you could slowly with hit and run move to the side of the enemy line and hit through their whole line from that side. in other words if it's a 40 vs 40 battle i'd say attempting to move 5-10 caravels on the far ends of the line to hit through the enemy galleons line from the side would probably change the results.
That's probably the idea, yeah. However the opponent can see that movement and counter it.
I've seen some comments on Reddit that say you didn't mention how Caravels are great against land-based units. On maps like Golden Swamp, they're like a super-tanky Scorpion with the speed of a Knight, even if they don't deal as much damage.
I like to deathball my Caravels with Galleons and a few Fire Ships, then when the enemy ships line up to shoot back, I just double click a Caravel and flank the now perfectly lined up enemy ships. The fire ship and Galleon durability protects the fleet while the Caravels become the heavy hitters.
Caravels could receive a little speed buff.
Didn't know Teutonic Knights can float on water. They must be pretty light xD
So Caravels are basically that cliche thing teachers love to show. One stick is easily breakable, but bunch of them? They're much stronger
Barbarossa wishes he could float on water.
1:39 Did noone notice the distraction manoeuvre by the two Galleys?
First Organ Guns, now Caravels... I wonder what the next video will be.
I think because of their limited use, naval ships should be able to carry troops and gain advantages when they carry them.
I choose Caravel because it makes me think of ice cream cakes.
Ships also get significantly more easily stacked in rivers, making the caravels superior in maps without large water spaces and in chokepoints, especially against ground units.
I really wish the AoE2 devs do a small buff of the naval part of portuguese, since portuguese is THE naval civ historically, specially at the time AoE2 takes place. I'm mostly talking about the Caravels and a little about the cannon galleon. Caravels should be significantly faster, and I think their cannons should be a little stronger. I would not change their galleons tho, they are already top tier.
If I could, I would also make another unique ship unit created and widely used by the portuguese, named Nau (I believe the name in english is Carrack? or was it ship of the line? sorry fellas, I really could not find a definite answere about it). While most used for transport of cargo and people, the portuguese also made ones for war, with 3 masts and something between 80 and 120 guns, depending of it's classification (1st line usually had 100-120). they where slower than caravels but carried more weight.
Ah yes, just in time for me to be starting the Portuguese campaign!
Imho they should boost their speed and maybe delay of attack, so you could maybe use them for micro.
Hey, Spirit of the Caravel here
Hi SoTL! Can you pls do an analysis of the fully upgraded Athenian navy?
You should do a video on the ethics of laming
Wouldn't caravels do better against fire ships when microing them compared to microing galleons due to their pass-through bolts? I think that case should have been analysed.
I think the idea here is that the caravel is a suppliment to your galley line, not a replacement. You would engage the enemy gallies with your own and once they are all lined up flank them with a group of caravels. It would be interesting to see how effective is it in such situations, like if the elite upgrade is skipped in imperial.
Just add Fire Ships or Demos, don't bother with this shipwreck
@@The-jy3yq Sure but still, the video is kind of missing the point by comparing massed gallies vs caravels as they don't fill the same role. Seeing how effective they are in different situations when supporting other ships would be more interesting.
i assume they would be better if you micro them since you can get them in a better position or it would force opponent to micro which apearantly is better than oponent A-moving. the question i wanted to know i guess was would i be better to mix galley and caravel (or just stick with one) or does the ai do something stupid and puts the caravel infront if you mix them?
They should give caravels a speed boost so they can fill a hit and run role
Caravels take the word "situational" to a whole new level.
Portugese are part of the ring of shame, next to Berbers and Malay, they do not have very useful civ bonuses either team bonuses, in going above and beyond their organ gun do become long range shotguns... but that's it.
Portuguese, Berbers and Malay are all great civs with many different bonuses benefitting them. Port gold discount is very useful, benefits all kinds of units, gives them versatility - and berry bonus makes their early eco good too. Malay faster uptime is gamechanging for both military and economy reasons and that bonus alone is enough to pick them in many maps over any other civ. Berbers have the best cavalry spam which is incredibly useful.
Ugh.. Caravels vs Thirisadai was a bad time for me finding that out in the Portuguese campaign 😔
So like, place them in a channel or river? Sounds a bit too situational to me.
I always mixed them in a 3:1 ratio with 3 being their galleons
Why? Idk, i liked it
I think you've done this video before, bulk vs hybrid navy, but I could see fire ships upfront, galleys in a line, caravels flanking. Is this best case scenario even possible pvp? probably not.
The Caravel is not at all bad.
But it is underpowered
Frankly, I would prefer Caravels to have a weaker shorter-range cannon attack and 1.3 speed of war gally but 20% less hp rather than any of the current unique applications.
They are very good at longboat counter.
Caravels should be a regional unit for Portuguese and Spanish
Very niche use case, but would the caravel be better at hitting land units?
You cant justfy the caravel not being a gunpowder unit thats wild
Caravels are better against a big number of units while Galleons are better agianst a small one. Shouldn t a mix of both of them be the better composition?
The need a native +1 to range to sit behind galleys
Damn. They really need a bit of a redesign. The way the pass through damage works is quite odd
so the caravels are good for bunch up units? what is the strategy here? make caravels and pray i find those? or is that strategy of bunching up ships so normal you can guarantee the use of caravels?
I honestly don't really like them. I know it's a "scorpion on water" in a way, but I prefer the Galleon way more
Well, historically caravel isn't designed for combat but rather for transportation.
Make Caravels Great Again!
Historically, Caravels were THE jack-of-all-traits ship during the early colonialization and imperialism age.
... yes, naval does need a rework ;)
What about galleys vs galleys/caravels 50/50?
I dont like this unit.
Especially the aspect of how the bolts have different performance depending on the unit targeted.
That shouldnt be that niche and hard to use.
This unit should be reworked, give it extra vision and let it be a "gunpowder unit" so it can benefit from other bonuses Imho.
So acording to AOW2 the caravel is a river ship?
Are we getting new Vietnamese soon? 😊
I meannnn
If you want to discover new continents, there's no better ship for it
Now, if you want to use them ingame for that, yeah you're lacking
Short answer:No.
Long answer:Absolutely No.
I prefer Trigangle sails to square :)
they simply need some adjustments to be more viable
Caravel what are you doing here!? Oh, you're so Portuguese.
What if they made the caravel 10% faster?
The curious case of the Caravel 😂
You talk about micro a lot in this vid but never tried to micro the Caravels themselves:
If the enemy isn't stacking their ships against you, they follow you instead, that's when they _will_ stack up due to how aggressive stance works.
I wish I could play water but its just too hard to me. I'm a 14xx player but I just can't macro water and land
Choke points. Got it.