Perhaps the next theorem video could be why move sets (like mix attacking, fast physical, bulky special, etc) are close to everything or the Dragonite theorem
Yeah… and 2 Knock Offs are stronger than 2 Crunches if it removes an item. So its just objectively superior at 65 BP. It was a prized move even at 20 BP, so the buff was highly unnecessary. Forcing Pokemon to use both Knock and an actual STAB move would nerf it quite a bit.
I don't mind the base power and effect. If I were to nerf it I decrease the item multiplier from 2x to 1.5x or 1.3x or 1.25x at worst. I don't want this thing to be
In pokemon design matters more than competitive when it comes to stats. Giant blocks of ice should have high defense no matter how bad they are in battle.
@@typemasters2871 honestly great idea since ice is so strong offensively, that said it might still do worse than how well it did for fighting types considering less of them get good defense boosting moves
I find it amusing that they couldn't resist giving Iron Bundle (one of the few fast AND hard-hitting Ice types) a rather high Defense stat for seemingly no reason, LMAO. To its credit, since it's so fast and is rarely outsped, I guess its good Defense may let it tank a priority move and strike back hard. FR tho, thank Arceus that it, Chien-Pao and Baxcalibur are decently or amazingly fast, cuz "slow bulky Ice type" is such a cruel joke.
@@typemasters2871it really wouldn’t, honestly. You’d be crutching on Trick Room just to use it, as most bulky Pokémon normally don’t have fantastic speed and you still risk being stomped by a lot of different priority moves like Bullet Punch. The typing just needs more going for it, resisting itself alone is not a good trade off for having four different weaknesses.
I did some tests in the Pokemon Damage Calculator regarding Walrein's 8x resistance to ice. To put that in perspective, Mewtwo, Level 100, Choice Specs, 252 EVs into Special Attack, Terra Ice, with +6 to Special Attack from Nasty Plot and a Special Attack boosting nature... takes 5 Ice Beams to kill Walrein from full health. If you went with a traditionally competitive Mewtwo (Boots instead of Specs, Terra Steel), it would take 8 Ice Beams to kill. Without Nasty Plot boosts, Mewtwo deals 11 damage. Not 11%. 11. Total.
This a common creator choice. They change thumbnails for a few days before leaving it be. It gets a video more views. It's intentional and I think it's manually done (or at least, manually set up before a timer changes it for them)
@@bfeldz1023 Not really. Snow just gives a physical defense boost to ice types. That's it. Right now snow is only used as a tool for Alolan Ninetales to set up Aurora Veil.
Ice as an element in games often tends to lean on the more defensive side because of how thick it can be, just think of something like an iceberg, for example. It's similarly reflected in the designs of many ice type Pokemon they create, too -- it's just easier to make something with the ice element slow and tough as opposed to fast and nimble, as the latter just isn't what people think of when they think of ice. The problem with Pokemon specifically, of course, is that due to the way the types in the game are coded, ice type Pokemon are left with almost nothing of value defensively, as we are all but too well aware of by this time
Celebi should have been changed to Grass-Fairy with the generation shift in Gen 6. Could have given it at least some edge against dragons and fighting types more.
@@Drifblim066poison stabs or coverage are way rarer than the random U-turns thrown out for momentum though and you already wouldn't want to be there to eat a poison type move
I’m sure someone has brought this up already but Lapras’s (and co)’s duel ice type was helpful defensively in gen 1 due to granting a freeze immunity. I know this video is more about modern pokemon but it’s worth considering.
Water/ice offensively is really good because they both compliment their type weaknesses very well (only fearing eletric and fighting). Glad iron bundle was able to put the typing into good use. Edit: sorry. I put in water instead of fighting. My bad.
It only barely fears electric in my experience. Loreli's lapras has always managed to tank at least one hit from whatever electric type I have. Thunderbolt from a raichu? A little under half health. A thunder from a jolteon? Around 1/4 of its health remains.
I think the problem with Toedscruel is Mycelium Might. It hinders the great support movepool GF’s blessed the mushroom with. Remove it and suddenly Toedscruel can be hecka annoying to deal with.
@ yes, it is. It might not dethrone Amoongus anytime soon but, a lot of Pokemon will have to start packing Safety Google because now there is fast Sporer in town too.
@@Gemini090693I guarantee you that if you had that ability to sleep opponent faster than they can act it would be completely and utterly broken. It would be played more than amoongus imo. Amoongus would still have things that are interesting that Toedscruel doesn't have access to, but the speed is a huge deal. Especially when in VGC you can only have one set of safety goggles + 1 pokemon you can terra. Like you can counter play with grass type but it puts a lot of pressure on teams at team building itself. Even if it wasn't played much due to people prepping their team for it specifically having that prep likely makes the team weaker to many other cores.
@ yes, even with Sleep Clause in single, the ability to able to throw a last layer of Spikes or Toxic at your foes before going down is so valuable. It’s not the typing, it’s the ability all along
Still amazed that GF still hasn't given Ice nor Rock any true defensive advantages. Ice have this many drawbacks but still won't let it resist Water? Come on!
@@3clisp315 Ice and water are the same element and while you need heat (aka fire) to melt ice into water, water can freeze into ice when the temperature lowers to or below what's considered freezing. Saying that aloud makes me think Ice should've been super-effective against Water all along...
On your point about pure water being a great defensive typing, I asked a friend about my draft league team and he remarked I didn't have a ground resist. I told him Vaporeon was my ground resist and ground types were never an issue for me
I kinda wish Torterra would have Thick Fat over Shell Armor. That way it only has a x2 instead of x4. Hisuian Avalugg should've been a fast hard hitter instead of being slow. Also no Rock/Steel placement? Aggron would've been better as a pure Steel type.
Torterra is still pretty bulky for main playthrough purposes despite it's weak type. In my last platinum nuzlocke my Torterra tanked an icebeam from Cynthia's Milotic and clutched like the whole thing. But i agree some
@rockowlgamer631 Torterra's Shell Armor gets sense design-wise, but how can we top that ability to increase the viability of our favorite Gen 4 Grass/Ground type?
I wouldn't say a Ghost/Dark is held back by it's typing. I'd say it's overall a better type combination than mono Ghost, and we know that's a very fine defensive type. I'd say Sableye and Spiritomb are just held back by their stats because honestly even Mega Sableye isn't very bulky. They're utility Pokemon with an excellent type that makes you think they're walls, when really they're not.
To be fair, Ice/Water is practically the best defensive typing you could ever get out of Ice as a whole, but yeah, it's still not gonna be amazing unless your defensive mon is the kind of tank that dishes back out as much as it takes it in and can therefore make good use of the extra STAB. Also, given that GameFreak absolutely knew how conceptually busted Ghost/Dark was -- y'know, since they gave Wonder Guard to Gen 5's Majin -- a Ghost/Dark with something similar like Magic Guard or even Levitate would absolutely have a secure place in OU, even now with all the power creep and a new type weakness.
Perhaps the next theorem video could be why move sets (like mix attacking, fast physical, bulky special, etc) are close to everything or the Infernape theorem
It should be the Infernape Theorem because it was the first Mon to really be able to a abuse Mixed attacking to amazing effect. Dragonite and Salamance mostly used the Physical sets or special sets while Infernape did truly use a mixed set :P
Honestly, they should just go whole hog and make it Cold Volcarona™️ Give it a signature move that's basically Ice-type Fiery Dance, and generally just give it a stat spread that's basically Volcarona's But Slightly Shuffled™️ It even kinda feels like that might've even been the idea to some extent, considering its base Atk and Def are swapped compared to Volc's and likewise HP and SpAtk are both -15 compared to Volc ...although in fairness, it could also just be coincidences, like any sequence of coincidences will look planned if you cherry-pick the right ones and manage to tie them together Or, in short: I might just be insane and simply really wanted Volcarona But Ice™️
I honestly think they should upgrade the ability to half all damage The typing is horrible enough to warrant that Its defensive stats arent even that good My competitive knowledge is lacking so i dont know if it would considered OP but reducing its quadruple weaknesses to just times two and making every other one hit nuetral via the hidden ability would be nice and make it somewhat more viable
@@QwixLFJokes on you. Lapras is a great tank. The mixed Ice and Water type serves to cover its weaknesses. Water weak to grass, use Ice Beam. Ice weak to Fire and Rock, use Surf or Hydro Pump to deal with it. It only fears Electric and Fighting Moves.
Ironically, even with the typing, Cloyster is good offensively. And realistically, Carracosta shouldn't have the Rock typing, and it would be defensively.
Neither does ice/ground, except that one comes w a super effective hit on steels which is valuable. Depends on the metagame, don’t think any dual typing is objectively best in a vacuum
I feel like Dawn Wings is a better example than Lunala. Even if you ignore Shadow Shield, Lunala is fast enough to strike first sometimes while Dawn Wings has to play the same as Dusk Mane.
@@MultiWilliam25 to be clear, by the time i made the comment, fsg had already made their pinned comment 15 minutes earlier, and I watched when it was 2 minutes old
There’s a lot of cool ice and rock types to use but any Pokémon in those types that wanna be tanks are a struggle to use the weather conditions can help but if your opponent have a good bit of coverage or something to remove the weather your up the creek with no paddle. In gen 9 I’ve tried to run some of my favourite rock/ice types it’s just defensively it’s hard to do even with a terra
Light Clay got banned in SV RU early on partially because of this actually. Shell Smash Cloyster with Aurora Veil AND the Snow defense buff was essentially impossible to revenge kill when White Herb is taken into effect, in spite of an inherently flawed typing. Cloyster itself got a ban in SV NU, but Snow/Aurora Veil had little to do with it, its just how overwhelming it is offensively with that tier's power level. Lapras and Dewgong came into the picture way too late to really make use of any of this, and neither really have the offensive capabilities of Cloyster anyway.
I would love to see a FSG video suggesting potential changes to the type chart itself for better balance. "Ice type sucks, but if we gave it these extra resistances..." etc.
Upgrading Hail into Snow was a great start, but I think part of what keeps Ice down despite that buff is how Fairy isn't just the new best offensive type, it's the best type period. Why hit Dragon super-effectively when Fairy offers that AND a Dragon immunity as well as great resistances to Fighting, Bug, and Dark which Ice lacks? And while Ice has four weaknesses, Fairy only has two and guess what: They're both defensive types that aren't really used for offense most of the time. If you wanted a better balance between the two types, increase the amount of types that Fairy gets resisted by (maybe add another type that hits Fairy super-effectively) while giving Ice more positive match-ups since at the end of the day, Ice is designed purely for offense.
Surprised flying types don't really get mentioned on here Cause besides some minor cases A lot of mons get really wounded by gaining the flying type Giving them weaknesses to rock, electric and ice typing. Which wasn't bad in the first 3 gen minus being weak to bolt beam coverage But Stealth Rock in Gen 4 essentially made being a flying type a death sentence cause you're losing a massive chunk of HP for switching in. Even more if you're quad weak to rock like Charizard or Articuno.
You guys have been knocking it out of the park with the poke-topics! Still hoping for the updated Arcanine video, I'm curious how he's done since 7th version
Spiritomb in its debut at least had the niche of being one of the best answers to Machamp and being a Ghost which was neutral to Dark attacks like Pursuit. It's highly specific and narrow in what it does, as it only matches up well against mons bearing its three immunities, but it does that job well.
@@justinnzamora5366 would be too much, I feel at least one more resistance would actually give all defensive ice types some sort of niche when Birdspam is a thing
I think Ice should resist Water (have you tried drowning an Ice Cube ? It's not easy I'll tell you that much) and imo, it should have been made resistant to Fairy when it was introduced. After all, one of the big thing with Fairy is their affinitty with light and Ice is really god at reflecting light, plus it would make Ice kind of the "anti magic" type in a sense, offensively strong against the Dragons and defensively strong against Fairies. With these changes Ice would be more in line with say Bug or Grass defensively : lots of really bad weaknesses, but it has a couple really good resists which make it pretty nice as a second type option that can make some very cool combo
I think ice should've been the superior upgrade from water. Ice beams have been freezing water a lot in the anime (should've been super effective to water, like freeze dry), and most (at least early) water/ice have ice attached to them as symbolism of "stronger water" (should've ressisted water). Ice also should've ressisted normal and poison, like rock types
What? The 'Despicable Me' Lapras meme is evolving? ... ... ... ... ... ... !!! Congratulations! Your 'Despicable Me' Lapras meme evolved into a Nemona meme thumbnail.
I am surprised Game Freak or the Pokémon Company haven't learnt ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from Rhyperior's Solid Rock Ability when trying to do defensive Pokémon wih weak type combinations. Given them an ability that compensates for their weaknesses
Idk spiritomb doesnt feel like a pokemon that should evolve. It may be outclassed but it feels complete and doesnt rlly make sense on having an evolution. Stat buff sure but eviolite spiritomb is a bit overtuned with recover
@@mantabjoka Eviolite Tomb wouldn't be overtuned even by a little bit. It's movepool is still bland, lacking the support moves most walls need in order to be good. Plus despite having only one weakness, it is lacking in useful resistances.
@@mantabjoka It wouldn't be overtuned at all, dark types wall both of it's stabs and eviolite Pokemon are cripplingly weak to knock off alongside basic things like entry hazards, not to mention the fact that Porygon2 is literally bulkier (even if Spiritomb could hold eviolite) with better stats and a way better selection of abilities but had only peaked at RU in gen 8 with toxic and teleport pre-recover nerf. I think with gen 10 power creep such a Spiritomb wouldn't see any insane success.
Celebi is literally a fairy, but gamefreak will never change it, sadly. Cloyster doesnt make sense to be ice, it would actually be a physical wall with pure water.
@@MaahirMomtaz12 Again, i'm not talking about it just from competitive, but also what makes sense, Cloyster being ice doesn't make sense. Also, it would make it much better in gen 2-4, when ice-type was a detriment.
It does make sense. Cloyster is an oyster that throws icy spikes. It's like saying that it makes no sense for arcanine to be a fire type because it's Just a tiger
I really think Rock should gain a Ghost resistance. Ghost is very strong offensively and Rock is quite weak defensively. This would kill two birds with one Stone. Plus anything that would help set Rock apart from Steel defensively would help give it a niche, and moving one of Steel’s lost resistances over to Rock would definitely do that. Garganacl really shows how valuable that Ghost resistance is too. I know that it has that unique resistance for thematic reasons-salt purifying spirits and whatnot, but I can think of a handful of other explanations for why Rock would resist Ghost (tombstones marking graves, sarcophaguses/coffins made of stone to seal the undead, tombs built from rocks, uhhh the Stone Tape theory? Idk)
Everytime quad weaknesses come up I always wonder how different the game would be if instead of x4 it was x3. It’d still convey the idea that this type combination is extra weak to a specific move type, but it wouldn’t get completely nuked. (Also still slightly irked that it goes from a weakness to a quad weakness.)
Its so sad psychic is so helpless with dark and ghost being two of the three most spammable offensive types with the least number of important resistances. Especially with psychic type damage being less effective than other types that handle the things they hit super effectively better
Lapras's other big flaw, besides how bad Ice opens up assaulting them, is that base 60 speed... a wide move pool and bulky stats means little if it never gets to do anything.
It's worth noting water/ice was pretty damn good in gen1. Being freeze immune is great, and double resisting ice makes for a good entry point. The only weaknesses gained by the ice type, rock and fighting, are pretty easily mitigated since fighters are nonexistent and the only good rock mons are quad weak to your water STAB so they can't switch in. And STAB Ice Beam is great.
I would argue that lack of reliable, spammable recovery screws over wannabe walls waaay more than their typing as long as they aren't riddled with 4x weaknesses. Avalugg's stats are effectively "what if Steelix had Recover" and it can actually wall physical mons quite well, but ironically its Hisuian form via getting multiple 4x weaknesses nullifies that sheer raw stats+healing dynamic.
Speaking of Omastar and Carracosta, I feel like Game Freak missed an opportunity with Gen 9s Paradox forms, specifically the past forms since it seemed ripe for bringing forth at least one or two fossil Pokémon before they were ever fossils, i.e. without their rock typing. Just imagine a paradox Kabutops with Water/Fighting or Aerodactyl finally being the half dragon it seemed to want to be since Lance had it on his team.
There should be a held item that swaps the weaknesses, and resistances of the pokemon. It'll probably make it impossible to predict/adapt to matchups, and will create as much chaos as terastalize, but in a defensive way instead of an offensive way. I personally would like to see pokemon battles last more than 1 or 2 hits, as 3 or 4 is a cool pace in my opinion.
Ice type should automatically set aurora veil (as a trait in ice type and not an ability) instead of having aurora veil as move depended on snow. That would buff ice bulk in addition to increasing defensive stats (having both at the same time).
Given this video's topic, I figured it'd be a good idea to suggest some type changes to make certain types more useful. ~ First off, the recent Teraleak actually revealed some interesting initial type effectiveness regarding the Fairy-type, which are as follows: * Ice was super-effective against Fairy and resisted it * Fire was super-effective against Fairy in addition to being resisted by it * Poison was neutral against Fairy as opposed to being being super effective and resisted by it * Bug was not only resisted by Fairy, it was weak to it as well Yeah it's good that they eventually dropped most of these, but come on! Ice gaining not only an offensive use against Fairy but defensive use as well?! This change alone would make Ice types a lot more popular and give them an actual defensive backbone. As for other ways to make Ice a better defensive type, I'd suggest making it resistant to Water, Grass, Ground, Electric, and Flying types. It'd make sense for Water and Ice to resist each other given that logically ice can freeze water but water can melt ice. Ground and Grass work because of permafrost while and Flying works due to the fact that living things can rarely fly at high altitudes due to the cold, and Electric works because ice is a poor conductor. That's a good amount of offensive types to resist, especually when combined with other types such as Water. ~ Water and Ground being super effective against each other. This one was mainly to make Groudon v. Kyogre more fair but it does make sense, as soil can actually absorb water pretty easy if it's been regularly wet. Now you have a way to better differentiate it with the Rock type. ~ I've heard a suggestion that Psychic should resist Grass and Water, as they represent relaxation, a counterpoint to the type's weaknesses which represent phobias. And speaking of which, I also think Poison should be super effective against Psychic as well, as not only is being poisoned a fear, but poisons can only debilitate the mind, which is where psychics get their power from. Poison gets more offensive use and Psychic gets better defensive use. ~ On a similar note, Bug is another type that needs more help in the offense and defense department. First off, Bug should do deal neutral damage to Fairies, since in most depictions, bugs and magical creatures coexist peacefully. In addition, most bugs have exoskeletons made of a very durable material called chitin, which is extremely non-conductive and naturally repels water, so technically a case could be made for Bug being resistant to Electric and Water. Not to mention for the latter that many bugs can survive underwater much longer than you would think. ~ Grass also definitely needs more defensive utility. Grass should honestly resist Rock and Fairy, since the former rarely stops plants from growing, and the latter can explained by fairies having a close connection with nature and not being able to harm it easily. ~ And finally, Rock should resist itself. Rocks don't typically do much damage to other rocks.
I would have figured water was one of the best types to pair an ice type with. Don't think of Lapras as a water type with extra weaknesses. Think of it as an ice type that isn't weak to fire or steel, and has stab moves against rock types.
@ when I first watched the video it had the Gru’s Plan thumbnail, then I watched it again later, and it had a “what if you wanted to go to heaven” thumbnail. now it’s the Gru’s Plan thumbnail again
You got cloyster wrong in the sense that it didn’t stay a defensive pokemon. Gens 1-4, it was absolutely a bulky support drastically by relative special frailty and ice’s plethora of weaknesses, but it learning shell smash and getting skill link as an ability changed its playstyle entirely. Nowadays, it’s something of a revenge sweeper: its physical defense is so high it’s pretty much guaranteed to survive a neutral physical hit, even with gen 9 levels of power creep, and can even tank supereffective hits from many attackers and survive. It can then shell smash, and will subsequently outspeed almost everything and delete them with icicle spear and/or rock blast. Water has become the type hindering it more by now, due to how hard icicle spear hits, and its lack of a comparably powerful STAB water move. Its electric weakness also doesn’t help, due to all the special electric moves/attackers.
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Perhaps the next theorem video could be why move sets (like mix attacking, fast physical, bulky special, etc) are close to everything or the Dragonite theorem
@@playersnake Or "Why Versatility is everything"
I've seen lots of RUclipsrs talk about the that wallet to
"Sablyeye, my son, I grant you no weaknesses!"
"Awesome! What's the catch?"
"You have the defenses of a wet piece of paper."
3 generations later: "...so, there's been a change."
weakness to everything
It should be
“You have no strengths”
Two Generations Later: We’ve dreamt something up for ya.
The Generation After: *So anyways, I start Bouncing…*
Same thing happened with Eelektross.
I love how "This psychic pokemon was great back in the day but it gets bullied by everyone nowadays" is such a common phenomenon
Knock off being given to every Pokémon on the face of the earth does that
Yeah… and 2 Knock Offs are stronger than 2 Crunches if it removes an item. So its just objectively superior at 65 BP.
It was a prized move even at 20 BP, so the buff was highly unnecessary. Forcing Pokemon to use both Knock and an actual STAB move would nerf it quite a bit.
Being weak to U-turn stinks, too.
STAB damage only being good against two types is not helping either
I don't mind the base power and effect. If I were to nerf it I decrease the item multiplier from 2x to 1.5x or 1.3x or 1.25x at worst. I don't want this thing to be
What I learnt from this: You can't call yourself a tank if you can't tank Earthquake, Close Combat, Flamethrower and Icebeam
Don't forget U-Turn
@@FrostFire425And Thunderbolt.
@@SolaricSage116And Psychic
because some of those are common high bp coverage moves that many mons not even the type can learn
So with that, skarmory and corviknight is true tanks in pokemon
Gamefreak trying not to put the ice type on something with high defense stats: (impossible)
Why not put that high defence towards something actual useful?
Like ice type body press
Shuckle: hooray?
In pokemon design matters more than competitive when it comes to stats. Giant blocks of ice should have high defense no matter how bad they are in battle.
@@typemasters2871 honestly great idea since ice is so strong offensively, that said it might still do worse than how well it did for fighting types considering less of them get good defense boosting moves
I find it amusing that they couldn't resist giving Iron Bundle (one of the few fast AND hard-hitting Ice types) a rather high Defense stat for seemingly no reason, LMAO. To its credit, since it's so fast and is rarely outsped, I guess its good Defense may let it tank a priority move and strike back hard. FR tho, thank Arceus that it, Chien-Pao and Baxcalibur are decently or amazingly fast, cuz "slow bulky Ice type" is such a cruel joke.
Game Freak: *makes a bulky Ice type
Fans: HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN?
lol, I read it with Calli's voice jajaja
Giving these bulky ice types body press or ice type body press would actually make use of their physical bulk
@@typemasters2871it really wouldn’t, honestly. You’d be crutching on Trick Room just to use it, as most bulky Pokémon normally don’t have fantastic speed and you still risk being stomped by a lot of different priority moves like Bullet Punch. The typing just needs more going for it, resisting itself alone is not a good trade off for having four different weaknesses.
Joke's on you, Lapras works great as a tank, regardless of what this guy says.
Ice type is a defensive liability. Think how much of a better tank it would be as a pure water type @@josephbulkin9222
I did some tests in the Pokemon Damage Calculator regarding Walrein's 8x resistance to ice.
To put that in perspective, Mewtwo, Level 100, Choice Specs, 252 EVs into Special Attack, Terra Ice, with +6 to Special Attack from Nasty Plot and a Special Attack boosting nature... takes 5 Ice Beams to kill Walrein from full health. If you went with a traditionally competitive Mewtwo (Boots instead of Specs, Terra Steel), it would take 8 Ice Beams to kill. Without Nasty Plot boosts, Mewtwo deals 11 damage. Not 11%. 11. Total.
Cheesehead Christ...
Did not expect Lapras to be used for that funny Gru meme.
EDIT 1: And they changed it.
EDIT 2: Hey, it's back.
And then my Defensive Type sits on the toilet... *sad realization*
Oh they changed the photo now
Did they change it or do they have multiple thumbnails that get randomly chosen
I liked the Gru one more
This a common creator choice. They change thumbnails for a few days before leaving it be. It gets a video more views. It's intentional and I think it's manually done (or at least, manually set up before a timer changes it for them)
I will never understand the attempt to make slow, bulky ice types without doing anything to buff its defenses.
At least Gamefreak seems to have finally learned their lesson on that with Gen 9.
@@bfeldz1023 Not really. Snow just gives a physical defense boost to ice types. That's it. Right now snow is only used as a tool for Alolan Ninetales to set up Aurora Veil.
@@trevorpacelli8056and 100% blizzard accuracy, which was useful on articuno recently
@@trevorpacelli8056 chien pao and iron bundle,
Ice as an element in games often tends to lean on the more defensive side because of how thick it can be, just think of something like an iceberg, for example. It's similarly reflected in the designs of many ice type Pokemon they create, too -- it's just easier to make something with the ice element slow and tough as opposed to fast and nimble, as the latter just isn't what people think of when they think of ice. The problem with Pokemon specifically, of course, is that due to the way the types in the game are coded, ice type Pokemon are left with almost nothing of value defensively, as we are all but too well aware of by this time
Celebi should have been changed to Grass-Fairy with the generation shift in Gen 6. Could have given it at least some edge against dragons and fighting types more.
Why do you mention fighting instead of dark
@@alejandro_rodriguez_99probably because of the defense relations
But it would replace its 4x bug weakness to a 4x poison weakness
@@Drifblim066poison stabs or coverage are way rarer than the random U-turns thrown out for momentum though and you already wouldn't want to be there to eat a poison type move
@@Drifblim066much better. At least U turn won't be that big of a deal.
Plus let's be honest. Fairy is just better psychic.
I’m sure someone has brought this up already but Lapras’s (and co)’s duel ice type was helpful defensively in gen 1 due to granting a freeze immunity. I know this video is more about modern pokemon but it’s worth considering.
Also blizzard was op in gen 1 lapras was used in ou sometimes in gen 1
Nemona becoming the channel's unofficial mascot is still so funny and charming.
Water/ice offensively is really good because they both compliment their type weaknesses very well (only fearing eletric and fighting). Glad iron bundle was able to put the typing into good use.
Edit: sorry. I put in water instead of fighting. My bad.
It only barely fears electric in my experience. Loreli's lapras has always managed to tank at least one hit from whatever electric type I have. Thunderbolt from a raichu? A little under half health. A thunder from a jolteon? Around 1/4 of its health remains.
I think the problem with Toedscruel is Mycelium Might. It hinders the great support movepool GF’s blessed the mushroom with. Remove it and suddenly Toedscruel can be hecka annoying to deal with.
I think it's due to spore. It would be the fastest spore user on the field
@ yes, it is. It might not dethrone Amoongus anytime soon but, a lot of Pokemon will have to start packing Safety Google because now there is fast Sporer in town too.
As Wolfglicke recently proved
@@Gemini090693I guarantee you that if you had that ability to sleep opponent faster than they can act it would be completely and utterly broken. It would be played more than amoongus imo. Amoongus would still have things that are interesting that Toedscruel doesn't have access to, but the speed is a huge deal. Especially when in VGC you can only have one set of safety goggles + 1 pokemon you can terra.
Like you can counter play with grass type but it puts a lot of pressure on teams at team building itself. Even if it wasn't played much due to people prepping their team for it specifically having that prep likely makes the team weaker to many other cores.
@ yes, even with Sleep Clause in single, the ability to able to throw a last layer of Spikes or Toxic at your foes before going down is so valuable. It’s not the typing, it’s the ability all along
Nobody:
Pokemon with a 4x weakness to bug facing down a U-Turn: It's so Wo-Chienover
It chien't take it anymore; it's wover.
Still amazed that GF still hasn't given Ice nor Rock any true defensive advantages. Ice have this many drawbacks but still won't let it resist Water? Come on!
Wish the Ice Type resisted Fairy Type moves
They at least did the hail->snow buff this gen.
(Obviously, opinions differ on if that was "to little, to late")
Rock does have defensive advantages. It’s ice that doesn’t
Why would Ice resist water?
@@3clisp315 Ice and water are the same element and while you need heat (aka fire) to melt ice into water, water can freeze into ice when the temperature lowers to or below what's considered freezing. Saying that aloud makes me think Ice should've been super-effective against Water all along...
These wacky thumbnails never fail to put a smile on my face :)
Yeah me to
On your point about pure water being a great defensive typing, I asked a friend about my draft league team and he remarked I didn't have a ground resist. I told him Vaporeon was my ground resist and ground types were never an issue for me
Just gonna say it; both thumbnails were fire 😎
I kinda wish Torterra would have Thick Fat over Shell Armor. That way it only has a x2 instead of x4.
Hisuian Avalugg should've been a fast hard hitter instead of being slow.
Also no Rock/Steel placement? Aggron would've been better as a pure Steel type.
Rock/Steel types were mentioned in a previous video with the same concept.
Torterra is still pretty bulky for main playthrough purposes despite it's weak type. In my last platinum nuzlocke my Torterra tanked an icebeam from Cynthia's Milotic and clutched like the whole thing. But i agree some
@@rockowlgamer631 I agree with Torterra should having Thick Fat instead of Shell Armor, and Game Freak wasted that chance on the S/V DLC.
Why would it have Thick Fat? Its not made of Fat. Do yall even understand the abilities these Pokemon gets?
@rockowlgamer631 Torterra's Shell Armor gets sense design-wise, but how can we top that ability to increase the viability of our favorite Gen 4 Grass/Ground type?
What if you: remember the original thumbnail
But FSG said: here's a different meme thumbnail
Nemona is such an icon of this channel now that a perfectly good thumbnail was replaced by one with Nemona on it, for the consistency
I wouldn't say a Ghost/Dark is held back by it's typing. I'd say it's overall a better type combination than mono Ghost, and we know that's a very fine defensive type. I'd say Sableye and Spiritomb are just held back by their stats because honestly even Mega Sableye isn't very bulky. They're utility Pokemon with an excellent type that makes you think they're walls, when really they're not.
To be fair, Ice/Water is practically the best defensive typing you could ever get out of Ice as a whole, but yeah, it's still not gonna be amazing unless your defensive mon is the kind of tank that dishes back out as much as it takes it in and can therefore make good use of the extra STAB.
Also, given that GameFreak absolutely knew how conceptually busted Ghost/Dark was -- y'know, since they gave Wonder Guard to Gen 5's Majin -- a Ghost/Dark with something similar like Magic Guard or even Levitate would absolutely have a secure place in OU, even now with all the power creep and a new type weakness.
Perhaps the next theorem video could be why move sets (like mix attacking, fast physical, bulky special, etc) are close to everything or the Infernape theorem
Salamance fits better
That sounds too much like the Flareon theorem
Nah, it should be called the Regieleki Theorem, Regieleki was banned from OU immediately as soon as it got coverage beyond electric and normal
@ I’m not talking about move type coverage, but Pokémon who would run sets that attack from both sides, like Gen 4 Infernape.
It should be the Infernape Theorem because it was the first Mon to really be able to a abuse Mixed attacking to amazing effect. Dragonite and Salamance mostly used the Physical sets or special sets while Infernape did truly use a mixed set :P
Game Freak has to boost Frosmoth speed to at least base 100 and give it more coverage.
Honestly, they should just go whole hog and make it Cold Volcarona™️
Give it a signature move that's basically Ice-type Fiery Dance, and generally just give it a stat spread that's basically Volcarona's But Slightly Shuffled™️
It even kinda feels like that might've even been the idea to some extent, considering its base Atk and Def are swapped compared to Volc's and likewise HP and SpAtk are both -15 compared to Volc
...although in fairness, it could also just be coincidences, like any sequence of coincidences will look planned if you cherry-pick the right ones and manage to tie them together
Or, in short: I might just be insane and simply really wanted Volcarona But Ice™️
I honestly think they should upgrade the ability to half all damage
The typing is horrible enough to warrant that
Its defensive stats arent even that good
My competitive knowledge is lacking so i dont know if it would considered OP but reducing its quadruple weaknesses to just times two and making every other one hit nuetral via the hidden ability would be nice and make it somewhat more viable
Lapras is so cute. My favorite gen 1 ice type.
It's my favorite to
There are literally 5 of those and two of those are Dewgong and Jynx so I feel like it's a lot of people's fave gen I ice type 🗿
I'm here to join the Ice Pokemon Fan Club (Don't worry Icey's, we still care about you!)
I would argue that Sableye and Spiritomb were more held back by their STATS than they were by their typing.
Awesome. "Made it before he changed the Thumbnail" Award 🥇
Honorable mention: all the Rock/Grounds 😞
That’s actually a typing that is way better suited for offense than defense.
You don't need to TAKE damage if you can inflict damage. Thats why ice types are great in single player
Tell that to all the slow Ice types who get chunked or OHKOed before attacking.
Honestly, in a playthrough you're better off just sticking Ice Beam on something with an actually good typing instead of using an actual Ice-type.
@@QwixLFI don't Weavile knows or care about that.
@@QwixLFJokes on you. Lapras is a great tank. The mixed Ice and Water type serves to cover its weaknesses. Water weak to grass, use Ice Beam. Ice weak to Fire and Rock, use Surf or Hydro Pump to deal with it. It only fears Electric and Fighting Moves.
@@QwixLFwouldn't know anything about that. I have never seen my Lapras get oneshot by anything.
Never forget the Lapras playing as Gru in the thumbnail.
Lapras would have gone extinct if it weren’t for that one kid in Gen 2 who bred a billion of ‘em.
The REAL channel mascot back in the thumbnail!!!
Ironically, even with the typing, Cloyster is good offensively. And realistically, Carracosta shouldn't have the Rock typing, and it would be defensively.
Lapras be like aaahhhhaaahhhhhahhhh I'm not defensively viable.
So true
Amazing how psychic type slowly when from a blessing to a curse over the years.
poor defensive water ices
They quite literally have the best offensive type combo in the game only to be held back because defensively its bad
Best offensive combo is rock ground imo. Which is also a garbage defensive combo
@@9tailjeza Ice/Ground tho
@@9tailjezanope, water/ice with freeze dry has zero resists
Neither does ice/ground, except that one comes w a super effective hit on steels which is valuable. Depends on the metagame, don’t think any dual typing is objectively best in a vacuum
The worst dual types defensively are usually the best offensively (Fire/Rock, Ice/Rock, Rock/Ground, Fire/Ice)
I feel like Dawn Wings is a better example than Lunala. Even if you ignore Shadow Shield, Lunala is fast enough to strike first sometimes while Dawn Wings has to play the same as Dusk Mane.
Damn fsg themselves really stopped the kids from saying first
You were going to say "first," weren't you?
How?
@@MultiWilliam25with a gun
@@atomichippy2 Boi you think I lack critical thinking?
@@MultiWilliam25 to be clear, by the time i made the comment, fsg had already made their pinned comment 15 minutes earlier, and I watched when it was 2 minutes old
There’s a lot of cool ice and rock types to use but any Pokémon in those types that wanna be tanks are a struggle to use the weather conditions can help but if your opponent have a good bit of coverage or something to remove the weather your up the creek with no paddle. In gen 9 I’ve tried to run some of my favourite rock/ice types it’s just defensively it’s hard to do even with a terra
The thumbnail is very cute.
Never mind, they changed the four panels Lapras-only thumbnail. FRAUDS!
I figured the Water/Ices would love the Snow buff in SV...
Light Clay got banned in SV RU early on partially because of this actually. Shell Smash Cloyster with Aurora Veil AND the Snow defense buff was essentially impossible to revenge kill when White Herb is taken into effect, in spite of an inherently flawed typing. Cloyster itself got a ban in SV NU, but Snow/Aurora Veil had little to do with it, its just how overwhelming it is offensively with that tier's power level.
Lapras and Dewgong came into the picture way too late to really make use of any of this, and neither really have the offensive capabilities of Cloyster anyway.
Gen 1 Water/Ice was great, which is where Lapras and Cloyster are from. Quad resist Blizzard and immune to freeze.
changed the thumbnail and then changed it back to the original, what a gamer
Who says Lapras can't be defensive? I had one on my team, and there was no greater tank there, I felt.
Definitely a Part 3: Uber Edition is Needed.
I would love to see a FSG video suggesting potential changes to the type chart itself for better balance. "Ice type sucks, but if we gave it these extra resistances..." etc.
Upgrading Hail into Snow was a great start, but I think part of what keeps Ice down despite that buff is how Fairy isn't just the new best offensive type, it's the best type period. Why hit Dragon super-effectively when Fairy offers that AND a Dragon immunity as well as great resistances to Fighting, Bug, and Dark which Ice lacks? And while Ice has four weaknesses, Fairy only has two and guess what: They're both defensive types that aren't really used for offense most of the time. If you wanted a better balance between the two types, increase the amount of types that Fairy gets resisted by (maybe add another type that hits Fairy super-effectively) while giving Ice more positive match-ups since at the end of the day, Ice is designed purely for offense.
I lowkey think that ice should resist water and flying so it can have other types than itself that it resists
0:23 that analogy is the craziest stretch I have ever heard
Surprised flying types don't really get mentioned on here
Cause besides some minor cases
A lot of mons get really wounded by gaining the flying type
Giving them weaknesses to rock, electric and ice typing. Which wasn't bad in the first 3 gen minus being weak to bolt beam coverage
But Stealth Rock in Gen 4 essentially made being a flying type a death sentence cause you're losing a massive chunk of HP for switching in. Even more if you're quad weak to rock like Charizard or Articuno.
Being immune to Ground is extremely valuable due to how prevalent offensive Ground types are, as well as all other Entry Hazards
While the Stealth Rock weakness is unfortunate, being immune to both forms of Spikes and Sticky Web is a good enough boon.
You guys have been knocking it out of the park with the poke-topics! Still hoping for the updated Arcanine video, I'm curious how he's done since 7th version
Spiritomb in its debut at least had the niche of being one of the best answers to Machamp and being a Ghost which was neutral to Dark attacks like Pursuit. It's highly specific and narrow in what it does, as it only matches up well against mons bearing its three immunities, but it does that job well.
The world if Ice Type resisted Flying: *futuristic city.png*
How about Ice resisting Water kind of like how Bug and Fighting resist each other?
I feel like Ice should resist Ground, Water, and Electric.
@@JacobMcElhaney-cj6bv nah
@@justinnzamora5366 would be too much, I feel at least one more resistance would actually give all defensive ice types some sort of niche when Birdspam is a thing
I think Ice should resist Water (have you tried drowning an Ice Cube ? It's not easy I'll tell you that much) and imo, it should have been made resistant to Fairy when it was introduced. After all, one of the big thing with Fairy is their affinitty with light and Ice is really god at reflecting light, plus it would make Ice kind of the "anti magic" type in a sense, offensively strong against the Dragons and defensively strong against Fairies.
With these changes Ice would be more in line with say Bug or Grass defensively : lots of really bad weaknesses, but it has a couple really good resists which make it pretty nice as a second type option that can make some very cool combo
I think ice should've been the superior upgrade from water. Ice beams have been freezing water a lot in the anime (should've been super effective to water, like freeze dry), and most (at least early) water/ice have ice attached to them as symbolism of "stronger water" (should've ressisted water). Ice also should've ressisted normal and poison, like rock types
TFW youve seen the original thumbnail, then a 2nd one, then seen it go back to the original thumbnail, lol
What? The 'Despicable Me' Lapras meme is evolving?
... ... ... ... ... ... !!!
Congratulations! Your 'Despicable Me' Lapras meme evolved into a Nemona meme thumbnail.
I am surprised Game Freak or the Pokémon Company haven't learnt ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from Rhyperior's Solid Rock Ability when trying to do defensive Pokémon wih weak type combinations.
Given them an ability that compensates for their weaknesses
Uh maybe because it's not that deep
For Rhyperior it's perfect because it effectively only has a weakness to Grass and Water. All the other weaknesses become neutral
@@MaahirMomtaz12 Same with Camerupt
Alright, whoever made that thumbnail deserves a raise
Wow this came out of the blue and I’m thankful for it-
They should really give Spiritomb a second evolution and give it recover
Idk spiritomb doesnt feel like a pokemon that should evolve. It may be outclassed but it feels complete and doesnt rlly make sense on having an evolution. Stat buff sure but eviolite spiritomb is a bit overtuned with recover
@@mantabjoka Eviolite Tomb wouldn't be overtuned even by a little bit. It's movepool is still bland, lacking the support moves most walls need in order to be good. Plus despite having only one weakness, it is lacking in useful resistances.
@@mantabjoka It wouldn't be overtuned at all, dark types wall both of it's stabs and eviolite Pokemon are cripplingly weak to knock off alongside basic things like entry hazards, not to mention the fact that Porygon2 is literally bulkier (even if Spiritomb could hold eviolite) with better stats and a way better selection of abilities but had only peaked at RU in gen 8 with toxic and teleport pre-recover nerf. I think with gen 10 power creep such a Spiritomb wouldn't see any insane success.
Celebi is literally a fairy, but gamefreak will never change it, sadly.
Cloyster doesnt make sense to be ice, it would actually be a physical wall with pure water.
I mean, Cloyster being part Ice is what makes it a powerful Offensive force, especially in gen 5 where it got banned to Ubers
@@CaptainJLinebeckyeah, but it still doesnt make sense, nothing about it says "Ice".
Losing STAB Icicle Spear would be awful
@@MaahirMomtaz12 Again, i'm not talking about it just from competitive, but also what makes sense, Cloyster being ice doesn't make sense.
Also, it would make it much better in gen 2-4, when ice-type was a detriment.
It does make sense. Cloyster is an oyster that throws icy spikes. It's like saying that it makes no sense for arcanine to be a fire type because it's Just a tiger
bro went from one thumbnail to another then back and thought nobody would notice lmao
I really think Rock should gain a Ghost resistance. Ghost is very strong offensively and Rock is quite weak defensively. This would kill two birds with one Stone. Plus anything that would help set Rock apart from Steel defensively would help give it a niche, and moving one of Steel’s lost resistances over to Rock would definitely do that.
Garganacl really shows how valuable that Ghost resistance is too. I know that it has that unique resistance for thematic reasons-salt purifying spirits and whatnot, but I can think of a handful of other explanations for why Rock would resist Ghost (tombstones marking graves, sarcophaguses/coffins made of stone to seal the undead, tombs built from rocks, uhhh the Stone Tape theory? Idk)
Everytime quad weaknesses come up I always wonder how different the game would be if instead of x4 it was x3. It’d still convey the idea that this type combination is extra weak to a specific move type, but it wouldn’t get completely nuked.
(Also still slightly irked that it goes from a weakness to a quad weakness.)
You just invented Legends Arceus type effectiveness (0.4x for double resistance and 2.5x for double weakness)
It honestly probably just make great mons better and not do much for medicore/bad mons
If it makes you feel better a weakness is a 2X so a 'quad' is only double a weakness. It should just be weakness and double weakness.
Woah dynamic thumbnail
Its so sad psychic is so helpless with dark and ghost being two of the three most spammable offensive types with the least number of important resistances. Especially with psychic type damage being less effective than other types that handle the things they hit super effectively better
Lapras's other big flaw, besides how bad Ice opens up assaulting them, is that base 60 speed... a wide move pool and bulky stats means little if it never gets to do anything.
In gen 1 ice type was good as bulk. The 0% chance to freeze was great.
This is the 2nd thumbnail used for this video.
And they changed it back. (At least for me)
Toedscruel got recently proved to maybe be something people need to consider during team building
The gru meme was wild lol
It's worth noting water/ice was pretty damn good in gen1. Being freeze immune is great, and double resisting ice makes for a good entry point. The only weaknesses gained by the ice type, rock and fighting, are pretty easily mitigated since fighters are nonexistent and the only good rock mons are quad weak to your water STAB so they can't switch in. And STAB Ice Beam is great.
I would argue that lack of reliable, spammable recovery screws over wannabe walls waaay more than their typing as long as they aren't riddled with 4x weaknesses. Avalugg's stats are effectively "what if Steelix had Recover" and it can actually wall physical mons quite well, but ironically its Hisuian form via getting multiple 4x weaknesses nullifies that sheer raw stats+healing dynamic.
Speaking of Omastar and Carracosta, I feel like Game Freak missed an opportunity with Gen 9s Paradox forms, specifically the past forms since it seemed ripe for bringing forth at least one or two fossil Pokémon before they were ever fossils, i.e. without their rock typing. Just imagine a paradox Kabutops with Water/Fighting or Aerodactyl finally being the half dragon it seemed to want to be since Lance had it on his team.
Seeing celebi and flygon fight is like seeing your parents argue
There should be a held item that swaps the weaknesses, and resistances of the pokemon.
It'll probably make it impossible to predict/adapt to matchups, and will create as much chaos as terastalize, but in a defensive way instead of an offensive way.
I personally would like to see pokemon battles last more than 1 or 2 hits, as 3 or 4 is a cool pace in my opinion.
If there was an Ice type Steelworker (Dhelmise’s ability that gives it the STAB for Steel), it’d be one of the best Ice types.
Grass/ground has something that is pretty rare though, resisting rock and ground, a combo that hits almost everything for at least neutral.
Thanks for not filling this list with ice dual types, Kellan. I know that must've taken a lot of restraint.
Remember when the Thumbnail was different from what this video had now?
I just saw a Lapras in the thumbnail, and I thought "uh-oh, That's my wife's favorite pokémon. Lol"
Actually in Defense on the Water/Ice types, the recent changes with Hail/Snow weather makes them on a good spot now.
Just being an ice type.
I know you changed the thumbnail from when I got my initial notification but I liked the before thumbnail tbh
Water/Ice is actualy super underrated, people don’t consider that it turns off the weakness to freeze dry
Ice type should automatically set aurora veil (as a trait in ice type and not an ability) instead of having aurora veil as move depended on snow. That would buff ice bulk in addition to increasing defensive stats (having both at the same time).
Given this video's topic, I figured it'd be a good idea to suggest some type changes to make certain types more useful.
~ First off, the recent Teraleak actually revealed some interesting initial type effectiveness regarding the Fairy-type, which are as follows:
* Ice was super-effective against Fairy and resisted it
* Fire was super-effective against Fairy in addition to being resisted by it
* Poison was neutral against Fairy as opposed to being being super effective and resisted by it
* Bug was not only resisted by Fairy, it was weak to it as well
Yeah it's good that they eventually dropped most of these, but come on! Ice gaining not only an offensive use against Fairy but defensive use as well?! This change alone would make Ice types a lot more popular and give them an actual defensive backbone.
As for other ways to make Ice a better defensive type, I'd suggest making it resistant to Water, Grass, Ground, Electric, and Flying types. It'd make sense for Water and Ice to resist each other given that logically ice can freeze water but water can melt ice. Ground and Grass work because of permafrost while and Flying works due to the fact that living things can rarely fly at high altitudes due to the cold, and Electric works because ice is a poor conductor. That's a good amount of offensive types to resist, especually when combined with other types such as Water.
~ Water and Ground being super effective against each other. This one was mainly to make Groudon v. Kyogre more fair but it does make sense, as soil can actually absorb water pretty easy if it's been regularly wet. Now you have a way to better differentiate it with the Rock type.
~ I've heard a suggestion that Psychic should resist Grass and Water, as they represent relaxation, a counterpoint to the type's weaknesses which represent phobias. And speaking of which, I also think Poison should be super effective against Psychic as well, as not only is being poisoned a fear, but poisons can only debilitate the mind, which is where psychics get their power from. Poison gets more offensive use and Psychic gets better defensive use.
~ On a similar note, Bug is another type that needs more help in the offense and defense department. First off, Bug should do deal neutral damage to Fairies, since in most depictions, bugs and magical creatures coexist peacefully. In addition, most bugs have exoskeletons made of a very durable material called chitin, which is extremely non-conductive and naturally repels water, so technically a case could be made for Bug being resistant to Electric and Water. Not to mention for the latter that many bugs can survive underwater much longer than you would think.
~ Grass also definitely needs more defensive utility. Grass should honestly resist Rock and Fairy, since the former rarely stops plants from growing, and the latter can explained by fairies having a close connection with nature and not being able to harm it easily.
~ And finally, Rock should resist itself. Rocks don't typically do much damage to other rocks.
I would have figured water was one of the best types to pair an ice type with. Don't think of Lapras as a water type with extra weaknesses. Think of it as an ice type that isn't weak to fire or steel, and has stab moves against rock types.
I liked the first thumbnail :(
Same. But Nemona will get more clicks.
Celebi isn't weak to bug. It's weak to U-turn.
The moment you said “hot takes edition” my very first thought was “oh celebii better be on this list”
What happened to the original thumbnail with Lapras doing Gru’s plan
I'm pretty sure it's an A/B thing, showing randomly, because it shows as Lapras Gru's plan for me
@ when I first watched the video it had the Gru’s Plan thumbnail, then I watched it again later, and it had a “what if you wanted to go to heaven” thumbnail. now it’s the Gru’s Plan thumbnail again
Walrein with tera would be so good
Poor Lapras. 😢
Game Freak Try Not to Put a Typing with Little to No Resistances on a Bulky Pokémon Challenge IMPOSSIBLE
Celebi needs to be changed to grass fairy
You got cloyster wrong in the sense that it didn’t stay a defensive pokemon. Gens 1-4, it was absolutely a bulky support drastically by relative special frailty and ice’s plethora of weaknesses, but it learning shell smash and getting skill link as an ability changed its playstyle entirely.
Nowadays, it’s something of a revenge sweeper: its physical defense is so high it’s pretty much guaranteed to survive a neutral physical hit, even with gen 9 levels of power creep, and can even tank supereffective hits from many attackers and survive. It can then shell smash, and will subsequently outspeed almost everything and delete them with icicle spear and/or rock blast. Water has become the type hindering it more by now, due to how hard icicle spear hits, and its lack of a comparably powerful STAB water move. Its electric weakness also doesn’t help, due to all the special electric moves/attackers.
Guys, make up your mind on the thumbnail XD
the difference in defensive prowess between a water/rock type vs a water/ground type is actually staggering.