If Red Hook wanted to be scumbags for money, adding microtransactions to DD1/DD2 would be a much easier way to do that than paying 100k to a fumbling board game production in the hopes that they would... get that back? Seems like a pretty shaky scam plan on their part. Red Hook could have easily just cut their losses and pulled out of the project without any responsibility, but they're sticking their neck out for us here. As for Mythic themselves, I honestly don't know what's going on with them. Someone at Mythic could be being an asshole, but it seems a little late for that? If people don't end up paying, then they've just wasted millions of dollars manufacturing these products in the first place, in addition to absolutely destroying any street cred they had. No company would do that on *purpose.* I think it's more likely just a *horrible* case of mismanagement.
if people dont pay, they're going to put on their online shop months later. for sure. they're NOT destroying this. no way. mythic its going to make even more money at the end if this happens. the sad part is, if i bought the game, i'll sadly pay whatever their asking, never back any of their projects ever again, and spend the rest of my life warning people no to back their stuff. unless there's some legal action people can make to get their game back with no additional payment
@@heronvitor6886 demanding people to pay more money otherwise they will sell the product THEY paid for to others. That’s straight up extortion, sorry once you guys get your products from them(mythic) never back them again.
This happens a surprising amount with 3rd party companies in different ways Terraria has had similar issues with 3rd party companies in the past, most notably with their mobile port of the game. Terraria of course took full responsibility of this and was able to get everything sorted out, then hire a different 3rd party with a more strict porting process. The difference between Red hook and Relogic however is that Relogic is a HUGE international success who has alot of money to throw around, which we can see with the lead terraria dev ending a partnership with Google due to a large slight. Red Hook doesn't have that kind of money, it's not like theyre a household name. They clearly love their fans and their game, but I imagine they also love to eat and keep their company alive What I'm assuming happened was that Mythic games mismanaged money and told Red Hook they needed more for shipment (and also probably to line their own pockets more), but RedHook cant summon a million dollars out of nowhere so they begrudgedly accepted Mythic Games proposal to have the fans pay for part of their shipment fees. Then to save face with Darkest Dungeons passionate fanbase they threw RedHook under the bus I'm not saying that RedHook is completely innocent, as they're the ones who partnered with Mythic Games and as such it's their problem, but what I am saying is that RedHook is probably as pissed off as the fans are, and I'm willing to bet they wont be getting into anything involving 3rd parties for a while. Still, sucks that our game is being held for ransom
@@Intestine_Ballin-ism covid, the whole canal situation that is still causing delays even now and so on. global shipping and shipping in general are great when they work and pretty reliable but one breakdown can cause massive problems for potentially years to come.
5:22 Wanna highlight this point right now. Red Hook does not seem like the type of company to do this sort of thing. They’re passionate and care greatly about their fan base. To them, the love of the fans matters more to them than money. Now with all things it is possible that the things people fear may be true and Red Hook really IS doing this in cooperation with Mythic, but like it was said in the video they don’t have a track record that would suggest this to be the case. In other words, Red Hook very likely is not the one doing this.
Never contribute to malice what you can contribute to incompetence. They should have not collected money for shipping until it was time to ship, and now it makes them look shady, even though I personally feel they aren't trying to screw anyone.
Hanlon's Razor, my favorite axiom. In this case, it's actually more like an unsustainable business model that was riding high on the good pre-pandemic times when we had guaranteed cheap production of products. Many companies were built entirely on crowdfunding to cover their overhead costs instead of getting investors like normal. Now, those companies are seeing the flaws in the business model. What would normally happen is that the company would either go under and the games would never exist, or they would sell to a larger investor. Instead, they ask their actual investors (backers) for more money with no additional guarantees. That is the risk of pledging in a crowdfunding campaign, you are basically investing in a product with no guarantee of return. board gaming
If you read the update the graph is specifically about the container prices they have paid for their games. This makes sense why it stops at March. "The graph below plots the evolution of CONTAINER PRICES THAT MYTHIC GAMES PAID ON EACH OF ITS GAMES. These prices include the rental of the containers, but also insurance, handling, transferring from the factory to the port of departure, and from the port of arrival in the hub. They do not include the cost of shipping from the hub to your mailbox, the so-called "last mile shipping", which has also increased considerably." (emphasis by me)
@@Cynbel_Terreus So you're saying they paid all these costs months ago and the items are have been sitting in a shipping hub near their destinations for months? Sounds pretty absurd at face value, but if we assume that's true, how does that mesh with them just now letting people know that they need to pay more for shipping costs if they were incurred months ago?
@@jackcristo1628 no if you read the update they haven't been shipped to the distribution hubs yet. This is made very clear by the update. "So you have the following choice: 1 - Pay your contribution by August 1st, and this contribution guarantees that your game will be on our first containers that leave the port in mid-August. .... 2 - You prefer to wait, in which case your games will be stored in our factory and will be added to containers as payments are made."
@@Cynbel_Terreus "our first containers that leave the port in mid-August" so they're still overseas. Why does it make sense that it stops in March then?
@@jackcristo1628 Because the chart was for their past projects that have already shipped. The last one having been SFB Round 2 which got shipped in March. It's not a global chart, it's a chart regarding their specific container costs they've incurred.
This is just a really shit situation. I haven't supported anything of Mythic's in the past, but I sure has hell will not be doing it in the future after this. It's weird to say, but I want to hope they are lying to Red Hook as well, because I don't think Red Hook would let this come out if they knew the whole story. Of course, things don't always work out the way we hope, I think it was a good idea to re-record this, rather than use the Twitch stream. Emotions were high from everyone at the stream, and understandably so, but I feel that the more matter-of-fact and structured way of presenting the situation is better for informing people and for opening up conversations.
I'd sorta assume that 'as payments are made' simply means that they'll ship the game you apparently own whenever you, personally, pay the extra cost. So basically 'pay now or pay later'.
Those who are calling this "extortion" are correct. That is the proper term. Even if everything they are saying is true, and the numbers are somehow accurate, these are not costs that should be forced on the investor or they don't get their product. They should have taken the same approach as they did with Red Rook: asked for the money. Tell the backers that they will get the product regardless, but asked if they would consider paying an additional amount to ease the burden. What they are doing is scummy, no question.
The problem is that backers aren't investors. That's the entire reason why companies like this use crowdfunding in the first place. They have next to no accountability and basically no regulation. People willingly give them money with nothing but a promise of a product in the end. Unfortunately, we have gotten used to using crowdfunding sites as pre-order stores and that they most certainly are not.
Holy smokes: I am so glad I didn't succumb to fomo and back this! I was very close to do so simply because I love Darkest Dungeon and I looked forward to see it adapted in a board game format! Guess I dodged a bullet here: in the end it was the fact it was a kickstarter exclusive what dissuaded me from backing it. Beside the fact that I think it's a bad practice to use kickstarter to essentially sell products instead of starting a business to sell them through retail, the fact that there was no guarantee it wouldn't be sold in any shop in the future was an early warning something was SERIOUSLY wrong!
@@adinmilo4342 I know: I just need to time it right and buy copies before they run out of leftovers (assuming the game ACTUALLY comes out and it doesn't suck) Edit: actually there is a small difference, the Musketeer was free for backers
All I know is that I was done at $650, with shipping, paying for a BOARD GAME. The new amount they requested would put me in over $700US. NO. I refuse. And it is cute that that the rabid fanboys mock and dismiss many who take umbrage at the request for more money. I requested a refund and they gave me some story about looking into the volume of refund requests and making a decision after they have talked it over. I don't think that is how this works. I had effing well better get my money back or I will put a lot of time on social media squawking about it. This entire situation makes Kickstarter and Mythic look like bad investments because Mythic says prices rose for them. Prices rose for EVERYONE. My property tax rose which makes the house insurance rise. Who do I cry to for more money to cover that? Nobody, it is my problem to fix.
Working in an industry that relies on shipping from overseas, the costs have sky rocketed. Has Mythic had a history of doing scummy things because this honestly seems like a shit situation that they really couldn’t control
I have no doubt shipping has skyrocketed. One of my besties works in logistics and was telling me about it. My issue with MG pertaining to this is they aren't being transparent enough, and the money they are asking for isn't matching the singular figure they told us. I've been asking around about it though to people with KS experience. If I get enough solid analysis I can make a followup.
21:31 I don't know about other people but I would much rather be told in advance that they needed more money instead of not knowing until they had an exact amount a week before they need it. This just feels irresponsible that they knew but didn't say anything until this late.
In a Q&A they said this was due to them being optimistic. They had projections, they had people planning for how high shipping costs would get, and they kept getting higher than anyone in this field projected. All signs pointed to those costs going down by the start of this year, but then the Ukrainian War happened and things got wild. This is about as early as they could have said.
@@MrDrewwills as someone who has worked in supply chain/with supply chain personnel for the last year and a half let me say that this is incorrect. Shipping costs have been bonkers for like 4 fiscal quarters now they could have and should have predicted this.
@@slushisimcambi2521 They said they were, and they have been. As a backer they've constantly posted about delays and issues due to COVID, it's just that the Ukrainian War pushed things too far. Your not wrong, things have been bad, but it looks like things haven't been bad enough to need to ask the backers for more money up until now.
@@jackcristo1628 Oh really? Where did you read that? I'm not calling you a liar, would just like to know. Also wouldn't there be other costs associated with shipping? Fuel prices? Overbearing costs of oil to make the product?
I'm a backer and this whole fiasco has definitely turned my off from Mythic Games, and maybe from Kickstarter as a whole depending on how they choose to respond to this.
As you read yourself shuffle. The people who don't pay by August first will have their games put into storage till they pay the shipping fee or prices lower. Mythic isn't going to sell your game on their eshop. Board game companies always print extra copies of any game. Some they will sell and others are used to deal with broken/replacement pieces as backers recieve their game. The update was rather poorly written. Hopfully we get another update soon to clarify alot of the issues.
The point of that statement is that they said they will hold your game until they can't if you don't pay the extra shipping. If you don't pay the shipping, what happens to the game then? Do they send it to you anyway? Do they throw it into the ocean? If they aren't giving it to you, their best option is to sell it.
I can only imagine that mythic tried to work out the situation as best they could and that it remained fluid all this time. Having to ask for more money from the customers is obviously terrible for their image and is most likely the last resort they could think of after negotiating every possible angle. And as it is a last resort, it comes in at the last minute. It's most likely a combination of poor PR and a complex crisis to manage rather than intentionally trying to alienate their customers. But yeah, still sucks
i mean if they are doing something like that they are either decently close to bankruptcy or will be with the extra shipping costs. most companies would just take the L and keep their customer base but this seems like a situation where they would incur losses that could kill the company if they dont get extra money. or they are just scummy but id really doubt that.
they have 7 other campaigns currently on the go, they have launched many of them since closing the funding for Darkest Dungeon, they have known about this for a long time and they have given backers a little over 1 week to pay extra shipping or wait for an undetermined amount of time. I've already paid nearly 200 USD in shipping to Australia, now I'm being hit up for another 70USD. That's nearly 3 times a single copy of the core game, I'm fine with delays, I understand that these are difficult times for production in China but the reality is they took a lot of their funds and produced extra copies of the core game to sell. Those extra copies are what we are fitting the bill for, which they will sell for profit. I look at it this way, if shipping costs went down would they consider refunding us shipping? Not fucking likely.
I have to say this is an extremely naive take given the lack of financial transparency. And it's "backers" not "customers," which is a notable difference because if these were customers then this would all be very illegal.
I requested a refund for my Ancestral Pledge (~$ 400). I was already wary due to the absurdly high price and the Day 1 expansions but this whole shipping fiasco just pushed me over the edge. I no longer want to support this project. I guess their response will decide if I ever do business with Mythic Games and Red Hook again.
@@ShuffleFM Sure man, I will let you know. Thanks for making the video although it's not directly related to the video games and kinda puts you at odds with Red Hook.
If you are smart you will get your refund and just avoid kickstarter projects like this. They clearly took money in for development costs and just spent it on their own shit as if it were profit and ran out of money for it. So they want YOU to fund that.
I don't think it puts me at odds with RH, or at least I hope it doesn't lol. I'm putting the blame squarely on mythic for this. RH isn't in control of this companies logistics.
@@ShuffleFM It puts them at odds with you, because you are the customer and it is not your job to ensure correct financial and logistical planning. If you pay for a product, the price claimed then you should receive it. WITHOUT having to pay more later, and there just is no excuse for it. If somebody didn't get the sack that means the whole operation is crooked. And if they do, they should offer something to all the people they've upset. People who supported them and were treated poorly, deserve more respect than a simple "it wasn't me" excuse and answer imho.
I looked it up, and Kickstarter, combined with their payment processor, take as much as 10%. At least 8%. That could explain a lot of this. Not that the company isn't at fault for lack of communication.
This is honestly standard at this point though. A lot of Kickstarter this big will eventually ask people more money for shipping. Look at Oathsworn. They also ask for money from shipping to. It is just a fact of life when you back big Kickstarter project sadly. We know the risk, the veterans atleast. And we still buy into it
Same shit happened for the chopbox kickstarter, its been 3 years and an extortion fee and still no product was sent out. Mythic and GoodSmile C.O. need to take some loses and just ship out the product.
They took in money for development and just spent it straight away as if it were profit. Like, instead of buying the raw materials and paying their staff, they just literally drank the money from beer bottles and bought stuff for themselves. Then sat down to make the thing for customers and realised they needed that money, so they ask for more. SCAM!
Tbh with how screwed up supply chain has been I'd believe a double in cost for shipping this out. On the other hand you should have a fair amount of contingency to work with in the event something like this happens. I don't think this is malicious intent, but simple incompetence from their project management. Shipping costs could always fall but for them to go ahead and push for this they must be getting some significant pressure from somewhere.
as someone who is backing games for 4 years I know mythic games and I dodged them always because they have bad rep for delaying products a lot and now it shows up they are making ks campaigns not games
Hey, at least it's a better situation then Super Dungeon Explore They had a kickstarter project that started about 4-6 years ago and since they have went bankrupt and never released anything. They also never refunded anything.
one of the worst games i own too, got me into painting minis. besides that, worst pointless game play ever, left me scratching my head wondering why it felt like shit too play, pointless turns, redundant choices, all characters and enemies felt same same, buying the base game might be ok for some people but far better games out there.
So basically those that have paid for the thing they gave money for have been to pay up more. The whole thing isn't looking good, kinda disappointing honestly.
Imagine ordering a product, paying for it as much as was being asked and then being told that they changed their mind and you now need to pay more or you will not get either the product or your money back. Imagine not being able to sue a company that pulls a stunt like that. They literally just stole from you and for some reason it's legal.
@@transsylvanian9100 No ones stolen anything. People threw their money into a pile on good faith, signing an agreement that they weren't guaranteed anything. No ones really ordered a product. They've donated money in the hopes that the company can fulfill what they've asked of them. And most of the time yeah it works, but pandemics and war change that. It does suck, it does hurt, itdoes feel really really bad. But this is the price of buying luxury over seas products in the midst of a war and a pandemic. This shits happening ALL across the world.
@@MrDrewwills Sorry is the war happening where the product is being manufactured or designed? No? Because if not then that is no excuse whatsoever and is just a pathetic pretext for being greedy and incompetent. All of what you mentioned are just excuses. There is always some shit or other going down somewhere, it doesn't matter. They promised to deliver a product, it literally says so on the tiers: "pay X amount and get Y". If they were too incompetent to make and deliver at the cost they promised then they simply have to incur financial losses, take a cut to their profit margin, dip into their rainy day fund, take out a loan, etc. If it's not their fault, though shit, also that's what insurance is for. I don't care what they have to do, it's up to them to hold up their part of the contract they effectively entered into when they received that money, otherwise they should be sued for money back AND compensation for emotional damages.
@@transsylvanian9100 Russia exports a lot of oil. Plastic is made from oil. The tarrifs on Russia are going to affect it. It also affects fuel for ships and trucks. I hear that you're angry, you have every right to be. But a global pandemic and a large scale war doesn't happen every day. This will affect things. Also you sign a waver when you back every kickstarter project saying that isn't the case. EVERY kickstarter is "pay x hope to get y but I can't persue legal issues if I don't." They have been, but they're dealing with money in the millions. When they have to shift that much plastic, all across the world, that's gonna build up expenses they can't just write off, They've been trying to as their graf showed, but they'll go bankrupt and have to fire every employee and still not have enough to ship it all. The funedmental problem is that kickstarter doesn't work that way. Every backer agrees that they aren't guaranteed anything. In every other situation you'd be right but kick starter doesn't work that way. Also when they made this project they had no idea they'd face a multi year global pandemic and a war involving one of the worlds main producers of oil. Theres no way they could account or budget for that. It's unfair to expect them to bankrupt their company because they didn't see that coming.
As a company, mythic really has shown themselves to be utter trash. The fact that if you don’t give them more money then they will sell YOUR game on their eShop that YOU paid for. I can’t look at it as anything else other than extortion which is a VERY BAD optics move on their part. I hope you guys get what you paid for, but I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
Coincidently, I told myself that this was the last Kickstarter I was going to back for a long time (for several reasons - Because of Covid, I haven't been able to play my board games as often as I'd like to as it is, I've been disappointed one too many times by games that I thought were going to be great and just weren't, just to name a couple). I have mixed feelings about this; There are some legitimate gripes. I think the frustration would be lower if they'd been a little more transparent about it and dropped a line about it sooner, like "Hey, guys and gals, just to let you know things aren't shaping up like we thought it would as far as shipping goes". That being said, it's a 'sucky' situation and some people just aren't going to be understanding no matter what you do. Ultimately, I'm just going to pay the money and call it quits on Kickstarter for a while. There's gonna have to be a project that I'm REALLY interested in for me to back another project.
I sunk a lot of money into this board game. I really hope I’m able to get it! I mean hell I’ve always wanted to play a game of darkest dungeons as a board game. Seemed like a perfect fit.
The cost isn't the worst part, it's just how terribly they handled the whole ordeal. They didn't offer any compensation or good will. They simply made a statement that we need to pay up more or less. I'm in at $700, $140 of which is fucking shipping.
@@imwivstuipid I don't go out anymore, I barely play video games, etc. This was my big purchase, and only selfish purchase, for over a year. The amount of joy and time I'm going to get out of painting the models will make it worth it to me.
@@eclecticspaghetti Thank you! It's the main reason I went for it. Hopefully you'll be able to buy the game at retail if you desire. It'll be my first big painting project.
"As payments are made" should be read with the "will be added to containers" bit. They aren't gonna ship a half-full container, so the date of the next wave of shipments will be dependent on filling a containers or a number of them required for the shipment to be economically feasible.
Wow. I was kind of bummed I missed the kickstarter, but if this is how they're doing it, I think I'll avoid checking it out until they figure themselves out. 😝
Thanks for the calm and clear overview of the situation. This has a very scummy feeling on Mythic's part, or whoever within Mythic is handling this. I agree that RH's position is still unclear and that needs to be taken into consideration. Furthermore, we know nothing of how their partnership works and how much autonomy they have in this. A lot of what makes this look so terrible is the lack of transparency, what with the buzzwords and ambiguous writing and the time pressure. And with the US economy recovering, you have to ask... Why don't they even mention the possibility of a delay? I assume many people would rather wait a semester or even an year than pull 70 bucks out of their ass at gunpoint like this. How much are they chipping into their profit margin? Why do the numbers not add up? What about the shipping costs for the e-shop, will THOSE games also be at an inflated price? At the moment, it's impossible not to think there isn't something rotten going on.
Man, you talk to anybody about this and they go "thats just how kickstarters go!" like, no. this is a colossal failure compared to other kickstarter campaigns
Thankyou for covering this. I hope it arrives because I'd love to see you make a review for the game. I'm there with you in this mess mate, it's a right bastard.
Thanks for the recap, got real confused when I mistakenly received emails for English Wave 1 shipping extra cost when my pledge is for the French version I have no idea who Mythic is, but I sure won't kickstart anything with them involved lmao
the beckers can sue them for this? because you already payed for the game, and if they refuse to deliver the game, there's no legal action you can take? the biggest issue for me is that the number they show dont add up. if they said: '' okay, the number is this, here it is, pay X amount more because of some problems bla bla bla'' everything super explained, okay, fine. but this seems some bullshit scam to me.
I've been a backer since the start and have been talking with Mythic members for a while on things. It really is enlightening to hear from an employee that is on customer satisfaction who was unable to review the update and make changes to it. Like the part involving red hooks name saying they agreed but making it seem like they agreed to the increased charge instead of they agreed to hand money over to try to help get games into backers hands. It saddens me to think of how video game developers will be smeared by a board game company's mistakes. Maybe I'm a fool but what I'm hearing direct from Mythic employees is hopeful and reassuring. It's just this update was everything less than that. I'm putting in my own time to comment on the Kickstarter page as much as possible to help people know all their options but even today mythic accidentally sent an erroneous email confusing other backers more.
If my company tried even half of this, we would be sued into oblivion. I am routinely shocked at the level of leeway games companies get to abuse and scam their fans.
That's the thing about crowdfunding, backers are not investors and have no rights as consumers. They literally give a company money on a hope and a dream that a product will arrive on their doorstep sometime in the future. Big companies have been taking advantage of this as a way to avoid fronting the overhead for projects. It's really no-risk for them and it's very vulnerable to bad actors.
Did you consider that you put ALL backers of the particular backing tiers while the game is divided into two waves? You cannot add everything and then compare it only to some part of the costs.
It may not have been a scam, but it's a scam now because they should swallow cost or refund the backers. End of story. I backed dozens of items the past year and everyone swallowed the cost of chinese shipping over time, every one, even with extras that should not have been added increasing ship price as well they said they'd cover it and they did. Most were first time kick starts too. They are holding your cash and product hostage and it should be 100% illegal. You do not change the rules at endgame, that's just A level top notch dbaggery.
That's the thing too, I had plenty of campaigns that ran into the same problems that were insanely small operations. One in particular was their first campaign for a really big box and instead of demanding money, they explained their challenges and then opened another campaign for donations while offering a small add on card pack as a thank-you. They received overwhelming support. I guarantee if Mythic did this instead of coming in heavy handed with the "pay us now or else" they would have gotten the money they needed voluntarily.
Not to play devils advocate, but I work in a port for the past 5 years and yes shipping cost are up and I mean UP. In 2020 a 40 feet shipping container from china/Europe to North America costed around 4-5K. In may 2021 the same container would ship for 18-22K. Now that same box ships for around 38-44K and theirs a waiting list even at those prices! That’s not normal and I really don’t see how they could have seen that coming when even the best shipping experts I know had no clue this would happen.
Yikes. I was really beat up about not dropping money on it before (love DD & boardgames but nobody to play it with), but now maybe not so much. Didn't know it'd be in backer limbo this later on. Think I'll just take the rulebooks and recreate the board game using the official art assets lmao. Should be cheaper than this.
Here is the problem, I have many games that have came to me, some with even more physical weight, and they didn't ask for more in shipping, and the one that did, oathsworn it was 15 usd. Not 65... so there is that, plus when you split anything into 2 waves it now cost 2 times as much to ship. So lots of incompetence, I have done many KS projects, this is by far the worst I have ever seen. I will never give mythic another cent after this, and pretty sure that's how the community feels.
Kickstarter FAQ, "when do i pay for shipping?" *Anything you pledge now DO NOT include shipping. It will be charged at later stage in the pledge manner" LAST UPDATED: OCTOBER 27 2020 why the fuck ppl have ability to pay in internet without ability to read what they sign for. Shipping cost later - ok i donated. Shipping costs skyrocket - guess I'm fucked, i took risk and now have to pay extra. This move felt like total scam and dick move but it was said 2 years ago that there is no shipping payment. Not their fault that costs went up, if they don't state that in faq 2 years ago they would look like total dickheads. But ppl who pay 500$ without reading faq and what they pay for is ridiculous. Now go pay your shipment or wait till shipping costs go down.
Got a link to this? Because the issue isn't that we had to pay shipping, it's that we are having to pay it twice. So if we paid it up front and that was against KS policy then that's an issue.
@@ShuffleFM posted link with reply but idk if it got deleted or yt verification, kickstarter project page > faq > 13rd question "When do I pay for shipping?" . "Please note that the money you pledge now DO NOT include shipping. Shipping will be charged at a later stage, in the pledge manager, after you choose exactly what you want to buy and give your address details. Last updated: Tue, October 27 2020 8:17 PM CET"
Aslo im one of backers and i remember reading this. My initial comment was maybe too harsh but it really makes me sick when ppl dont read faq/description before paying to ks projects.
@@frodo4503 YT probably sniped it since most links get hidden. I'll go see if it's there but thanks for the info. I might do a followup to this and I'll need that most likely.
I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to how expensive it is to make a board game, but they had a pretty substantial backing. Especially when you take into account they were asking for 300k lol.
They have spent the majority of it before paying their expenses ITS A BAD BUSINESS WITH BAD STAFF. Any business that allows itself to spend the money it earnt for development is SUICIDALLY STUPID and that means NEGLIGENT to it's customers. This things dead in the water now. Do not throw any more money at this, it is paying towards DEBT now rather than development. There will be no board game until you PAY again. U N A C C E P T A B L E ! 🤔 These people should be ashamed.
They will answer nothing because they are not willing to admit it's not shipping,it's debt due to bad calls or just greed. Forlorn and now Euthia, both ask me for less shipping than the original shipping on this one. I won't pay, I don't care fix it
Optimisitic to assume that the shipping prices will go down, but that's not the most likely scenario. Expect the next round of being sold your own stuff "while it's on sale".
@@scottlarmore5038 it's not that it's a god awful game, it's just not a good sequel to Darkest Dungeon (imo), the dungeon crawling, hamlet and barracks management are completely gone which to me was like the complete identity of Darkest Dungeon. The game as it stands now you do a run to try and beat the game and you either succeed or fail and then start over, it feels more like a Darkest Dungeon spin off that you'd play on your tablet or something. I will say however the new visuals are absolutely great and it seems like they made things less RNG dependent which is good, but other than that i thoroughly enjoy the orginal DD way way more. By all mean give it a try if it looks good to you, just don't go in expecting more Darkest Dungeon cuz this ain't it.
@@jackmeriustacktheritrix Darkest Dungeons identity was its 4 POS combat system honestly, you have a better meta progression now with Altar of Hope anyways
Speculation : They are already bankrupt and they go for one final money grab before declaring it..but even if not: How can one have faith to receive the product after this ransom policy?
Another lazy unprofessional load of bollocks from a game company, that is unacceptable. If I did this to my customers they'd sue me, and I am a single bloke making medical assistive equipment. You eat your own business costs and if you can't afford to then you charge more. You don't go back to previous customers to beg from them!!
Mythic Games has a story of problems with their kickstarters that date way before the pandemic. Mythic and other companies like CMON underprice their shipping values so more people back the game. If they charged 100+ shipping from the get-go a lot less people would be interested. You cannot possibly hope that this huge chunk of plastic and cardboard could be delivered in your home for just 60 bucks. This was a major red flag that you just opted to ignore. As long as there are people giving these predatory crowdfunding companies (Kickstarter included) money this kind of thing will keep happening again and again.
Honestly, I'm surprised it's not more money and I think this is one of the worst possible lights to put on this company and game. I'd bet they knew a lot of people would ask for refunds because of this and and that's why they said what they said. Also the thing about them having copies to sell after makes sense, they probably ordered extra copies to sell themselves knowing it was a popular game and to assume they would sell copies already bought is bogus at best. Was there communication problems, sure, but this take is the terrible.
You made an error. You said this game raised $5.6milll, shipping is $3.1mill so there is $2.5mill to work with. Except they already charged shipping separately in the PM, which isn't included here. On a very basic estimation (18.000 * $40 + 10.000 * $80) this would equate to another $1.5mill additional shipping before they asked for more money. So there's could be at least $4mill to work with. Subtracting $1.5mill estimated production cost gives you $2.5mill left. There's also about 10% less from the raised amount on kickstarter due to Kickstarter costs (I guess about 3% on everything in the PM, including shipping payments)
@@derraldlosey1118 I said " Subtracting $1.5mill estimated production cost gives you $2.5mill left." So not sure why you think I forgot production cost. Shipping, except last man shipping or whatever it is called (to your door) is always included into msrp, so it shouldn't really be charged separately in the first place. I don't pay for freight when I buy a game.
@@bassmeo3937 eh missed that at the bottom because of the weird order you ran that in. You do pay freight when you buy the game its just included in the msrp. In KS its not and is added into shipping cost. You pay it either way though. Start with the - for advertising, - charge for using the IP , + 5.6 mil - 10% off the top for ks charge, - development costs (part of that would be pre launch) , - manufacturing costs, + shipping charge, - transport, - freight, - distribution center, - shipping. Way too many factors that are not even vaguely covered here. They probably won't be ether. Between the negative you start with for advertising, IP, and the cost to develop the game you don't know the correct start point.
This is exactly the reason why I quit supporting KS. I understand an individual trying to produce something they wouldn’t have the means to create, not large companies that continue to use KS as a pre order system. These are two profitable companies that can easily cover the increase in shipping. But because of (I’m sorry to say this) people like you, the “I want my game so I’ll pay more for it.” Companies continue to do this. Want a helpful suggestion, File a class action lawsuit. You’ll get your game or a full refund (eventually)
all in backer here, one of the worst kickstarter moves ever seen, mythic might have won the money battle here but they shot themselves in both feet and the ass for future projects. nobody, including myself, will support them after this
Man, it’s…god it’s been disappointing, asking my family for this over two years ago for Christmas (to chip in, anyway) and this additional news has just made things worse. I 100% get it. But like, *god* has this sucked.
Huge miss information in your video! No they won't sell your game if you don't pay them now. They produced an overstock for the E-shop specifically, they confirmed this in their weekly live video multiple times before. If you backed, your copy will be held for you until your shipment cost are paid or until they no longer can store it. At which they will surely send an email with date limits and more. They won't turn around and just sell it to ''double dip'' like you said. That reaction is purely speculation and is putting words their mouths. The only time they will sell ''your'' copy is if you get a refund from your pledge, now they can do what the hell they want with that copy. Even if Mythic has an online store, in which they are more than allowed to do even if all their previous projects were Kickstarters. They are not really ''hiding'' behind KS. KS is only the platform for the project, everything was handled in the PM (Pledge manager) over at Gamefound once the KS closed. KS is literally the middle man here that only offers the platform, collects the money, takes a cut, sends the rest to the creator. They do nothing else once the project is funded and finished, it's only up to the creators to take it from there. Business wise it's only smart to create more copies and sell more online as the KS funded the development of it. As for the calculation of the pledge shipment costs, it's assuming that the 3.1$M is for both waves and not just wave 1. They never really said what that amount covers in that cost, we are only assuming it's for both waves. + A bunch of people probably added a bunch of add-ons (Sleeves, organizer, extra hero box, deluxe 3D tokens, play mate, etc) or extra copies as well. While we can estimate base off the preliminary numbers that are shown on KS, it still doesn't take into account extra and even possible refunds that were already issued in the almost 2 years since that update. That said, they should of given more time for backers to pay. Yes it's a bit late for people to fork over more money and only have 10ish days. They should of waited to ask backers to pay shipping cost once they are at the shipping phase and not charge ahead of time. Charging the same amount as what we have now, but only in 1 go instead of 2 (potentially 3) would of went over way smoother. They also should of given a little incentive for people to pay more like a % discount on another game or future project as a thank you.
The reason I said they will sell your game is because they will "hold it until they can't". What else could that possibly mean, especially when they say they won't do the overstock until their *first* backers receive it? After filming this I read into them a bit more and it says they've done 10 KS projects total. Any other company would be financially solvent and running independently as a business at that point. Instead they do everything through KS or gamefound. The name of the entity is irrelevant. The point is they can skirt certain business laws by not operating as a store. As for your 3rd point that's why I was saying they need to give us the numbers. If they're gonna ask for this they need to give us a breakdown of how they used the previous money. There's also no explanation for what they are asking and the fact that the money from backers wouldn't match. Unless they misspoke, but without seeing the hard numbers we can't be certain. Yes they should have given us more time, for reasons already stated.
I find it really frustrating how obnoxiously trusting people are of multi million dollar companies. Just because they SAY one thing doesn't mean that's the truth. People lie, and companies that are looking at financial problems are incentivized to lie more, not less. Look at what gets said at any 'on the rocks' companies' shareholders meetings, it's nothing but positive spin after positive spin, which is just another form of lying. In this particular case we don't need to take them blindly at their word, because Shuffle (and many others besides him) have correctly deduced the obvious implications beneath their words. Of particular note, and not brought up by Shuffle, is that Monolith Games CEO has recently come out and assured their Kickstarter backers that they won't be seeing a shipping increase, and they have revealed in detail the exact cost breakdown of shipping for them, both pre and post current year. He straight out says that the recent happenings have only marginally increased shipping for them and they're going to eat the modest cost increase on their end. Seeing the numbers he posted, and then looking at what Mythic is asking for their customers, greatly brings into question the amount of money they're asking for. Monolith ships board games of comparable size from the same region as Mythic, but they aren't seeing massive shipping cost increases? That makes Mythic look really REALLY bad, and a lot of people are speculating that they ran out of money and this isn't really to cost shipping, but is actually funding needed to make up their own margins. facebook.com/816448163/posts/pfbid02tLVEu1QKhU5XpZcCVRtYCBBY1HiApANbjzLZkSE8uJFz61iFJgnr9UAsPmn9pCXQl/?sfnsn=scwspmo
@@ShuffleFM I don't like how this is handled whatsoever, but you clearly are a video gamer and not a board gamer primarily who deals with Kickstarter but when people are telling you actual facts that you're getting wrong in your video, dude just listen to the few points you were getting wrong. You don't even know what a PM is as you admitted in this video. A pledge manager is where you pay for shipping, extra items you want, and where late backers buy a copy when they missed the campaign. People are not "defending the company actions" when they're clarifying some points like this comment was. They only "double dip" if they refund you and even then that's not an automatic assumption. If they did that they'd be the first company to do that ever and you'd have a whole bunch of videos on it without a doubt, so you're totally wrong about that assumption and said it about 4 times this video. They COULD do that but...it would be a pioneering fuck you to their backers. Any company that's had to do this has either, held onto your game until you paid, potentially having higher shipping costs when you do pay due to storage and shipping one game instead of a batch, offered a refund so they could sell it to someone else, or just sent it anyway later. This has happened quite a bit with these big box games with the costs recently. Board game companies are pretty small, even the big ones, and their profit margins are shit compared to other businesses. Most of the companies that have done this so far have been transparent well ahead of the time that they are in need of funds so they usually offer promo cards or incentives as a thank you like, some have given 10% off for life as an apology and thank you. Mythic games handled this exceptionally poorly. But most people who paid attention knew something was up because they had lay offs a bit ago. The short notice demand with 10 days to go when we're in the start of a recession with inflationary costs hitting people hard, and the poorly written unclear update is rather egregious. I didn't back this game, but I have one from them in later stages of production and I'm sitting here waiting pissed off for what they're doing when the time comes
@@nipzie Please don't assume I cannot critically think about something because I didn't know an acronym. I know what a pledge manager is, it just slipped my mind that it's shorthanded as PM. The people that are saying I'm wrong about them selling a backers game for not paying have not answered the most basic question: If you cannot pay, they hold it for "as long as possible". What will they do with it after? I have no problems making a revision or a followup if Mythic can give us the relevant information. I would like to believe they just screwed up to a huge level and it's all incompetence, but I will need to see evidence of that first.
@@ShuffleFM If they can't hold it any longer, then they will probably send emails and contact the affected people before just ''selling it''. Even then, it's assuming that they will do that. They will probably try to get the game in your hands as much as possible. But at this point everything we say about that situation is purely a speculation in either way and is not even worth answering. While it can go one way or another, assuming the worst or the best is a waste of time and only creates a pointless discussion. Only time will tell in what direction they take. They worded their update horribly and it's easy to get upset at the situation and go on a tangent. I myself wasn't really happy about how they handled it. But if they only had delays in the past but delivered good products that are well liked by the community, for myself, I can at least give them the time they need to make it right by their backers. For the amount of minis and stuff DD has, I am still surprised the shipping didn't cost more even after the latest shipping update. But I can only speak for myself.
Considering the events of the past 2 years, I wouldn't necessarily say mismanagement. With how enormously costs have risen there could be very good reason that they can't manage the current numbers, and it could be that they are trying to make up for those who do not spend the money so they raised it a bit higher to give themselves a cushion of people who don't pay. Not trying to make much excuses but it's worth considering there are reasonable things behind such and we shouldn't jump to the belief it is simply bad. It seems more to me a dying company trying to stay above water rather than an evil company.
It looks like illegal extortion… also the Mythic Business Model is like a Ponzi Scheme… Right now consider all my future MG Pledges as already lost und will not pay them more money. If i cloud, i would withdraw all pledges already made to them.
You missed a lot, it's shaping up to be a really good game with fantastic minis. They asked backers to contribute to rising costs of everything to be able to ship the game soon. That's all.
I don't what your on about. I found out from this video that a Kickstart item I backed in a old email isn't arriving. I found out on August 9th (again old email), so I'm long past when I could get it. So I basically lost 40+ bucks on what I originally spent. I mean I probably could send angry emails that I'll get ignored. I'm just saying it seems like a fucken scam to me.
@@Therealpiemaster123 The guy that made this video doesn't know what he is talking about. Board Game Co is a channel that covers ks board games and understands the industry what is going on with them. Hes made a few videos on what is going on with them.
@@derraldlosey1118 I looked into the channel. Watch the 3 hour video and to summarize it. The pandemic and other this came up and they said it would cost x but x became X plus Y, and here are examples of companies that have done worse things also I get free products from the company but you should ignore that because I don't consider this bias sense "believe" I'd be more beneficial to be negative. Basically Poor corporation. See the way I see it is, American Airline sells more tickets then seats on a plane. It's not the customer fault that United airlines is greedy so when 2 security beat and pull a man off the flight. I blame the airline and he doesn't. When you buy a 1 year subscription and the company selling the subscription stops providing the service that same month its not the customer fault. I belive CNN should refund those who did not get what they paid for, he'd argue they only paid for entry and what's behind the door isn't on CNN. And finally when Mythic says this will cost 20 bucks when they think it would cost 10-25 buck it's not the customer fault that they bought the product at 20 bucks when it could have been priced at 25. He said well they would of lost business. I say fuckem. My word means something. All he told me is that mythic and his words aren't work the oxygen to say them.
Your calculations are absolutelly uninformed dude. Its clear that you dont know nearly nothing regarding the production cost for graphic design, game design and several other really hardcore expenses. Other thing is, you forget to notice kickckstarter cut fees. Speaking about your complains for raising additional funds.. the cost for a single container from china is 10x higher than it was year ago du to Covid. Its only the one reason why companies asking backers for additional money. So sorry, no. Adapt to a post covid era, or sit and wait for better days.
@@ShuffleFM Btw before you accuse someone from SCAM do your homework and research more info about the company past track records. Mythic games sent errata packs full of cards to customers on their own expenses and that is only one of many customer friendly moves. When you want numbers.. here you go i hope it will open your eyes.. The price of 1 container from China was at the time of kickstarter 3 000 usd now the price is approx. 30 000 Usd. Not speaking about resources inflation. If a triple A company with a good reputation is asking you for more money due to shipment its not a Scam but it is Panic button trigger from them.
i hope they get a class action lawsuit. and yes, Mythic Games does sound like a bunch of scammers to me, they are lying about the values and keeping the products hostage and extorting people.
EA pledge is an anti-consumer practice with myriad of disastrous outcome and this is possibly going to be just one more such case. I get your frustration but acting surprised doesn't seem quite fitting. The 'artist' you were investing in turned out to be quite the money monger, but that's just a known inevitable course of EA pledge by design which is no different from gambling. I hope you either 'win' or let this serve as a lesson on what you might not want to get into in the first place. Your money, your rules.
The game is not the scam. Having paid for it is a scam because they didn't actually spend that money on the pre-promised production run. No instead they just spent it all as if it were profit, when it was development funds. REPEAT : They took money for development, and chose to just spend it on themselves instead. So now they need paying AGAIN and this time, maybe they will NOT just spend it all on their own stuff and fail to invest in their own game being made. Terrible scam, no excuse.
Just do a few Antiquarian runs to make up the difference, literally not an issue.
If Red Hook wanted to be scumbags for money, adding microtransactions to DD1/DD2 would be a much easier way to do that than paying 100k to a fumbling board game production in the hopes that they would... get that back? Seems like a pretty shaky scam plan on their part. Red Hook could have easily just cut their losses and pulled out of the project without any responsibility, but they're sticking their neck out for us here.
As for Mythic themselves, I honestly don't know what's going on with them. Someone at Mythic could be being an asshole, but it seems a little late for that? If people don't end up paying, then they've just wasted millions of dollars manufacturing these products in the first place, in addition to absolutely destroying any street cred they had. No company would do that on *purpose.* I think it's more likely just a *horrible* case of mismanagement.
Imagine Darkest Dungeon NFTs
if people dont pay, they're going to put on their online shop months later. for sure. they're NOT destroying this. no way. mythic its going to make even more money at the end if this happens. the sad part is, if i bought the game, i'll sadly pay whatever their asking, never back any of their projects ever again, and spend the rest of my life warning people no to back their stuff.
unless there's some legal action people can make to get their game back with no additional payment
@@heronvitor6886 demanding people to pay more money otherwise they will sell the product THEY paid for to others. That’s straight up extortion, sorry once you guys get your products from them(mythic) never back them again.
Yep but "scam" is a more clickable title
@@heronvitor6886 What are you on about? If you bought a game then you have a game. They're selling overstock, not other people's games
This happens a surprising amount with 3rd party companies in different ways
Terraria has had similar issues with 3rd party companies in the past, most notably with their mobile port of the game. Terraria of course took full responsibility of this and was able to get everything sorted out, then hire a different 3rd party with a more strict porting process. The difference between Red hook and Relogic however is that Relogic is a HUGE international success who has alot of money to throw around, which we can see with the lead terraria dev ending a partnership with Google due to a large slight. Red Hook doesn't have that kind of money, it's not like theyre a household name. They clearly love their fans and their game, but I imagine they also love to eat and keep their company alive
What I'm assuming happened was that Mythic games mismanaged money and told Red Hook they needed more for shipment (and also probably to line their own pockets more), but RedHook cant summon a million dollars out of nowhere so they begrudgedly accepted Mythic Games proposal to have the fans pay for part of their shipment fees. Then to save face with Darkest Dungeons passionate fanbase they threw RedHook under the bus
I'm not saying that RedHook is completely innocent, as they're the ones who partnered with Mythic Games and as such it's their problem, but what I am saying is that RedHook is probably as pissed off as the fans are, and I'm willing to bet they wont be getting into anything involving 3rd parties for a while. Still, sucks that our game is being held for ransom
I know there's a war but... From 1.5 to 3? And saying that they will hold some products? 🤦🏻♂️.they should fire their PR
Mind you, the shipping prices have been skyrocketing since 2020, it's not just because of the war
@@Intestine_Ballin-ism covid, the whole canal situation that is still causing delays even now and so on. global shipping and shipping in general are great when they work and pretty reliable but one breakdown can cause massive problems for potentially years to come.
@@StabbyTheSkaven after the suez cannal, we have to assume that everything will be delay
5:22 Wanna highlight this point right now. Red Hook does not seem like the type of company to do this sort of thing. They’re passionate and care greatly about their fan base. To them, the love of the fans matters more to them than money. Now with all things it is possible that the things people fear may be true and Red Hook really IS doing this in cooperation with Mythic, but like it was said in the video they don’t have a track record that would suggest this to be the case.
In other words, Red Hook very likely is not the one doing this.
Well they aren't saying anything or trying to help the situation they are just as complacent
Never contribute to malice what you can contribute to incompetence. They should have not collected money for shipping until it was time to ship, and now it makes them look shady, even though I personally feel they aren't trying to screw anyone.
Hanlon's Razor, my favorite axiom. In this case, it's actually more like an unsustainable business model that was riding high on the good pre-pandemic times when we had guaranteed cheap production of products. Many companies were built entirely on crowdfunding to cover their overhead costs instead of getting investors like normal. Now, those companies are seeing the flaws in the business model. What would normally happen is that the company would either go under and the games would never exist, or they would sell to a larger investor. Instead, they ask their actual investors (backers) for more money with no additional guarantees. That is the risk of pledging in a crowdfunding campaign, you are basically investing in a product with no guarantee of return.
board gaming
It's convenient that their "China to Distribution hubs" graph stops at March, because freight costs have dropped by 35% since then.
If you read the update the graph is specifically about the container prices they have paid for their games. This makes sense why it stops at March.
"The graph below plots the evolution of CONTAINER PRICES THAT MYTHIC GAMES PAID ON EACH OF ITS GAMES. These prices include the rental of the containers, but also insurance, handling, transferring from the factory to the port of departure, and from the port of arrival in the hub. They do not include the cost of shipping from the hub to your mailbox, the so-called "last mile shipping", which has also increased considerably." (emphasis by me)
@@Cynbel_Terreus So you're saying they paid all these costs months ago and the items are have been sitting in a shipping hub near their destinations for months? Sounds pretty absurd at face value, but if we assume that's true, how does that mesh with them just now letting people know that they need to pay more for shipping costs if they were incurred months ago?
@@jackcristo1628 no if you read the update they haven't been shipped to the distribution hubs yet. This is made very clear by the update.
"So you have the following choice:
1 - Pay your contribution by August 1st, and this contribution guarantees that your game will be on our first containers that leave the port in mid-August. ....
2 - You prefer to wait, in which case your games will be stored in our factory and will be added to containers as payments are made."
@@Cynbel_Terreus "our first containers that leave the port in mid-August" so they're still overseas. Why does it make sense that it stops in March then?
@@jackcristo1628 Because the chart was for their past projects that have already shipped. The last one having been SFB Round 2 which got shipped in March. It's not a global chart, it's a chart regarding their specific container costs they've incurred.
This is just a really shit situation. I haven't supported anything of Mythic's in the past, but I sure has hell will not be doing it in the future after this.
It's weird to say, but I want to hope they are lying to Red Hook as well, because I don't think Red Hook would let this come out if they knew the whole story. Of course, things don't always work out the way we hope,
I think it was a good idea to re-record this, rather than use the Twitch stream. Emotions were high from everyone at the stream, and understandably so, but I feel that the more matter-of-fact and structured way of presenting the situation is better for informing people and for opening up conversations.
I'd sorta assume that 'as payments are made' simply means that they'll ship the game you apparently own whenever you, personally, pay the extra cost. So basically 'pay now or pay later'.
That’s the impression I got, too.
Those who are calling this "extortion" are correct. That is the proper term.
Even if everything they are saying is true, and the numbers are somehow accurate, these are not costs that should be forced on the investor or they don't get their product. They should have taken the same approach as they did with Red Rook: asked for the money. Tell the backers that they will get the product regardless, but asked if they would consider paying an additional amount to ease the burden.
What they are doing is scummy, no question.
We fall so that we may learn to pick ourselves up once again.
The problem is that backers aren't investors. That's the entire reason why companies like this use crowdfunding in the first place. They have next to no accountability and basically no regulation. People willingly give them money with nothing but a promise of a product in the end. Unfortunately, we have gotten used to using crowdfunding sites as pre-order stores and that they most certainly are not.
Holy smokes: I am so glad I didn't succumb to fomo and back this! I was very close to do so simply because I love Darkest Dungeon and I looked forward to see it adapted in a board game format!
Guess I dodged a bullet here: in the end it was the fact it was a kickstarter exclusive what dissuaded me from backing it. Beside the fact that I think it's a bad practice to use kickstarter to essentially sell products instead of starting a business to sell them through retail, the fact that there was no guarantee it wouldn't be sold in any shop in the future was an early warning something was SERIOUSLY wrong!
Lucky for you, there isn'ty really any difference in privileges for backers and non backers alike.
@@adinmilo4342 I know: I just need to time it right and buy copies before they run out of leftovers (assuming the game ACTUALLY comes out and it doesn't suck)
Edit: actually there is a small difference, the Musketeer was free for backers
All I know is that I was done at $650, with shipping, paying for a BOARD GAME. The new amount they requested would put me in over $700US. NO. I refuse. And it is cute that that the rabid fanboys mock and dismiss many who take umbrage at the request for more money. I requested a refund and they gave me some story about looking into the volume of refund requests and making a decision after they have talked it over. I don't think that is how this works. I had effing well better get my money back or I will put a lot of time on social media squawking about it. This entire situation makes Kickstarter and Mythic look like bad investments because Mythic says prices rose for them. Prices rose for EVERYONE. My property tax rose which makes the house insurance rise. Who do I cry to for more money to cover that? Nobody, it is my problem to fix.
Working in an industry that relies on shipping from overseas, the costs have sky rocketed. Has Mythic had a history of doing scummy things because this honestly seems like a shit situation that they really couldn’t control
I have no doubt shipping has skyrocketed. One of my besties works in logistics and was telling me about it. My issue with MG pertaining to this is they aren't being transparent enough, and the money they are asking for isn't matching the singular figure they told us. I've been asking around about it though to people with KS experience. If I get enough solid analysis I can make a followup.
I was a late backer. Not a pleasant situation for anyone in the project, backer and creator.
$5.6 million bones beg to differ. Great time to be a creator.
@@InsanitysApex Guess that is true. I was mostly thinking about the poor community manager.
@@ptlacour yeah, its almost like extorting your backers has negative consequences. Crazy!
21:31 I don't know about other people but I would much rather be told in advance that they needed more money instead of not knowing until they had an exact amount a week before they need it. This just feels irresponsible that they knew but didn't say anything until this late.
In a Q&A they said this was due to them being optimistic. They had projections, they had people planning for how high shipping costs would get, and they kept getting higher than anyone in this field projected. All signs pointed to those costs going down by the start of this year, but then the Ukrainian War happened and things got wild.
This is about as early as they could have said.
@@MrDrewwills as someone who has worked in supply chain/with supply chain personnel for the last year and a half let me say that this is incorrect. Shipping costs have been bonkers for like 4 fiscal quarters now they could have and should have predicted this.
@@slushisimcambi2521 They said they were, and they have been. As a backer they've constantly posted about delays and issues due to COVID, it's just that the Ukrainian War pushed things too far.
Your not wrong, things have been bad, but it looks like things haven't been bad enough to need to ask the backers for more money up until now.
@@MrDrewwills freight costs are currently down to pre-invasion levels, so this doesn't make any sense.
@@jackcristo1628 Oh really? Where did you read that? I'm not calling you a liar, would just like to know.
Also wouldn't there be other costs associated with shipping? Fuel prices? Overbearing costs of oil to make the product?
I'm a backer and this whole fiasco has definitely turned my off from Mythic Games, and maybe from Kickstarter as a whole depending on how they choose to respond to this.
As you read yourself shuffle. The people who don't pay by August first will have their games put into storage till they pay the shipping fee or prices lower. Mythic isn't going to sell your game on their eshop. Board game companies always print extra copies of any game. Some they will sell and others are used to deal with broken/replacement pieces as backers recieve their game. The update was rather poorly written. Hopfully we get another update soon to clarify alot of the issues.
The point of that statement is that they said they will hold your game until they can't if you don't pay the extra shipping. If you don't pay the shipping, what happens to the game then? Do they send it to you anyway? Do they throw it into the ocean? If they aren't giving it to you, their best option is to sell it.
I can only imagine that mythic tried to work out the situation as best they could and that it remained fluid all this time.
Having to ask for more money from the customers is obviously terrible for their image and is most likely the last resort they could think of after negotiating every possible angle. And as it is a last resort, it comes in at the last minute.
It's most likely a combination of poor PR and a complex crisis to manage rather than intentionally trying to alienate their customers.
But yeah, still sucks
i mean if they are doing something like that they are either decently close to bankruptcy or will be with the extra shipping costs. most companies would just take the L and keep their customer base but this seems like a situation where they would incur losses that could kill the company if they dont get extra money. or they are just scummy but id really doubt that.
they have 7 other campaigns currently on the go, they have launched many of them since closing the funding for Darkest Dungeon, they have known about this for a long time and they have given backers a little over 1 week to pay extra shipping or wait for an undetermined amount of time.
I've already paid nearly 200 USD in shipping to Australia, now I'm being hit up for another 70USD. That's nearly 3 times a single copy of the core game, I'm fine with delays, I understand that these are difficult times for production in China but the reality is they took a lot of their funds and produced extra copies of the core game to sell. Those extra copies are what we are fitting the bill for, which they will sell for profit.
I look at it this way, if shipping costs went down would they consider refunding us shipping? Not fucking likely.
I have to say this is an extremely naive take given the lack of financial transparency. And it's "backers" not "customers," which is a notable difference because if these were customers then this would all be very illegal.
I requested a refund for my Ancestral Pledge (~$ 400). I was already wary due to the absurdly high price and the Day 1 expansions but this whole shipping fiasco just pushed me over the edge. I no longer want to support this project.
I guess their response will decide if I ever do business with Mythic Games and Red Hook again.
That's rough dude. Let me know how the process goes if you like. It would be interesting to hear how it's handled.
@@ShuffleFM Sure man, I will let you know.
Thanks for making the video although it's not directly related to the video games and kinda puts you at odds with Red Hook.
If you are smart you will get your refund and just avoid kickstarter projects like this. They clearly took money in for development costs and just spent it on their own shit as if it were profit and ran out of money for it. So they want YOU to fund that.
I don't think it puts me at odds with RH, or at least I hope it doesn't lol. I'm putting the blame squarely on mythic for this. RH isn't in control of this companies logistics.
@@ShuffleFM It puts them at odds with you, because you are the customer and it is not your job to ensure correct financial and logistical planning.
If you pay for a product, the price claimed then you should receive it. WITHOUT having to pay more later, and there just is no excuse for it. If somebody didn't get the sack that means the whole operation is crooked. And if they do, they should offer something to all the people they've upset.
People who supported them and were treated poorly, deserve more respect than a simple "it wasn't me" excuse and answer imho.
I looked it up, and Kickstarter, combined with their payment processor, take as much as 10%. At least 8%. That could explain a lot of this.
Not that the company isn't at fault for lack of communication.
This is honestly standard at this point though. A lot of Kickstarter this big will eventually ask people more money for shipping. Look at Oathsworn. They also ask for money from shipping to. It is just a fact of life when you back big Kickstarter project sadly. We know the risk, the veterans atleast. And we still buy into it
Same shit happened for the chopbox kickstarter, its been 3 years and an extortion fee and still no product was sent out. Mythic and GoodSmile C.O. need to take some loses and just ship out the product.
They took in money for development and just spent it straight away as if it were profit. Like, instead of buying the raw materials and paying their staff, they just literally drank the money from beer bottles and bought stuff for themselves.
Then sat down to make the thing for customers and realised they needed that money, so they ask for more. SCAM!
Tbh with how screwed up supply chain has been I'd believe a double in cost for shipping this out. On the other hand you should have a fair amount of contingency to work with in the event something like this happens. I don't think this is malicious intent, but simple incompetence from their project management. Shipping costs could always fall but for them to go ahead and push for this they must be getting some significant pressure from somewhere.
as someone who is backing games for 4 years I know mythic games and I dodged them always because they have bad rep for delaying products a lot and now it shows up they are making ks campaigns not games
Hey, at least it's a better situation then Super Dungeon Explore
They had a kickstarter project that started about 4-6 years ago and since they have went bankrupt and never released anything. They also never refunded anything.
one of the worst games i own too, got me into painting minis. besides that, worst pointless game play ever, left me scratching my head wondering why it felt like shit too play, pointless turns, redundant choices, all characters and enemies felt same same, buying the base game might be ok for some people but far better games out there.
So basically those that have paid for the thing they gave money for have been to pay up more. The whole thing isn't looking good, kinda disappointing honestly.
Imagine ordering a product, paying for it as much as was being asked and then being told that they changed their mind and you now need to pay more or you will not get either the product or your money back. Imagine not being able to sue a company that pulls a stunt like that. They literally just stole from you and for some reason it's legal.
@@transsylvanian9100 No ones stolen anything. People threw their money into a pile on good faith, signing an agreement that they weren't guaranteed anything.
No ones really ordered a product. They've donated money in the hopes that the company can fulfill what they've asked of them. And most of the time yeah it works, but pandemics and war change that.
It does suck, it does hurt, itdoes feel really really bad. But this is the price of buying luxury over seas products in the midst of a war and a pandemic. This shits happening ALL across the world.
@@MrDrewwills Sorry is the war happening where the product is being manufactured or designed? No? Because if not then that is no excuse whatsoever and is just a pathetic pretext for being greedy and incompetent.
All of what you mentioned are just excuses. There is always some shit or other going down somewhere, it doesn't matter. They promised to deliver a product, it literally says so on the tiers: "pay X amount and get Y".
If they were too incompetent to make and deliver at the cost they promised then they simply have to incur financial losses, take a cut to their profit margin, dip into their rainy day fund, take out a loan, etc. If it's not their fault, though shit, also that's what insurance is for.
I don't care what they have to do, it's up to them to hold up their part of the contract they effectively entered into when they received that money, otherwise they should be sued for money back AND compensation for emotional damages.
@@MrDrewwills This is literal daylight robbery. Shameless. It's disgraceful that they are not going to jail over this.
@@transsylvanian9100 Russia exports a lot of oil. Plastic is made from oil. The tarrifs on Russia are going to affect it. It also affects fuel for ships and trucks.
I hear that you're angry, you have every right to be. But a global pandemic and a large scale war doesn't happen every day. This will affect things. Also you sign a waver when you back every kickstarter project saying that isn't the case. EVERY kickstarter is "pay x hope to get y but I can't persue legal issues if I don't."
They have been, but they're dealing with money in the millions. When they have to shift that much plastic, all across the world, that's gonna build up expenses they can't just write off, They've been trying to as their graf showed, but they'll go bankrupt and have to fire every employee and still not have enough to ship it all.
The funedmental problem is that kickstarter doesn't work that way. Every backer agrees that they aren't guaranteed anything. In every other situation you'd be right but kick starter doesn't work that way.
Also when they made this project they had no idea they'd face a multi year global pandemic and a war involving one of the worlds main producers of oil. Theres no way they could account or budget for that. It's unfair to expect them to bankrupt their company because they didn't see that coming.
As a company, mythic really has shown themselves to be utter trash. The fact that if you don’t give them more money then they will sell YOUR game on their eShop that YOU paid for. I can’t look at it as anything else other than extortion which is a VERY BAD optics move on their part. I hope you guys get what you paid for, but I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
That's nonsense, read the update again.
Coincidently, I told myself that this was the last Kickstarter I was going to back for a long time (for several reasons - Because of Covid, I haven't been able to play my board games as often as I'd like to as it is, I've been disappointed one too many times by games that I thought were going to be great and just weren't, just to name a couple).
I have mixed feelings about this; There are some legitimate gripes. I think the frustration would be lower if they'd been a little more transparent about it and dropped a line about it sooner, like "Hey, guys and gals, just to let you know things aren't shaping up like we thought it would as far as shipping goes". That being said, it's a 'sucky' situation and some people just aren't going to be understanding no matter what you do.
Ultimately, I'm just going to pay the money and call it quits on Kickstarter for a while. There's gonna have to be a project that I'm REALLY interested in for me to back another project.
I sunk a lot of money into this board game. I really hope I’m able to get it! I mean hell I’ve always wanted to play a game of darkest dungeons as a board game. Seemed like a perfect fit.
The cost isn't the worst part, it's just how terribly they handled the whole ordeal. They didn't offer any compensation or good will. They simply made a statement that we need to pay up more or less.
I'm in at $700, $140 of which is fucking shipping.
You spent 700 on a kickstarter? Holy shit dude wtf are you doing
@@imwivstuipid I don't go out anymore, I barely play video games, etc. This was my big purchase, and only selfish purchase, for over a year. The amount of joy and time I'm going to get out of painting the models will make it worth it to me.
@@MySqueezingArm Honestly I was tempted to buy it for the minis alone, I don’t blame you at all, dude. Those look *so* sick.
@@eclecticspaghetti Thank you! It's the main reason I went for it. Hopefully you'll be able to buy the game at retail if you desire. It'll be my first big painting project.
We'll you're lucky >.> I'll end up paying $150 just for the Core Game Box... living in Costa Rica sucks
"As payments are made" should be read with the "will be added to containers" bit. They aren't gonna ship a half-full container, so the date of the next wave of shipments will be dependent on filling a containers or a number of them required for the shipment to be economically feasible.
Wow. I was kind of bummed I missed the kickstarter, but if this is how they're doing it, I think I'll avoid checking it out until they figure themselves out. 😝
Thanks for the calm and clear overview of the situation. This has a very scummy feeling on Mythic's part, or whoever within Mythic is handling this. I agree that RH's position is still unclear and that needs to be taken into consideration. Furthermore, we know nothing of how their partnership works and how much autonomy they have in this.
A lot of what makes this look so terrible is the lack of transparency, what with the buzzwords and ambiguous writing and the time pressure. And with the US economy recovering, you have to ask... Why don't they even mention the possibility of a delay? I assume many people would rather wait a semester or even an year than pull 70 bucks out of their ass at gunpoint like this. How much are they chipping into their profit margin? Why do the numbers not add up? What about the shipping costs for the e-shop, will THOSE games also be at an inflated price? At the moment, it's impossible not to think there isn't something rotten going on.
I happily pay seventy bucks to get the game now rather than in half a year or years time.
@@rogerhuerlimann8875 ok bro
Man, you talk to anybody about this and they go "thats just how kickstarters go!" like, no. this is a colossal failure compared to other kickstarter campaigns
Thankyou for covering this. I hope it arrives because I'd love to see you make a review for the game. I'm there with you in this mess mate, it's a right bastard.
Thanks for the recap, got real confused when I mistakenly received emails for English Wave 1 shipping extra cost when my pledge is for the French version
I have no idea who Mythic is, but I sure won't kickstart anything with them involved lmao
You will endure this loss, and learn from it.
the beckers can sue them for this? because you already payed for the game, and if they refuse to deliver the game, there's no legal action you can take? the biggest issue for me is that the number they show dont add up. if they said: '' okay, the number is this, here it is, pay X amount more because of some problems bla bla bla'' everything super explained, okay, fine. but this seems some bullshit scam to me.
I've been a backer since the start and have been talking with Mythic members for a while on things. It really is enlightening to hear from an employee that is on customer satisfaction who was unable to review the update and make changes to it.
Like the part involving red hooks name saying they agreed but making it seem like they agreed to the increased charge instead of they agreed to hand money over to try to help get games into backers hands. It saddens me to think of how video game developers will be smeared by a board game company's mistakes.
Maybe I'm a fool but what I'm hearing direct from Mythic employees is hopeful and reassuring. It's just this update was everything less than that.
I'm putting in my own time to comment on the Kickstarter page as much as possible to help people know all their options but even today mythic accidentally sent an erroneous email confusing other backers more.
If my company tried even half of this, we would be sued into oblivion. I am routinely shocked at the level of leeway games companies get to abuse and scam their fans.
I bought this game 3 days ago and really enjoying it, but now I think well I won't be investing any further if this is how they are behaving.
That's the thing about crowdfunding, backers are not investors and have no rights as consumers. They literally give a company money on a hope and a dream that a product will arrive on their doorstep sometime in the future. Big companies have been taking advantage of this as a way to avoid fronting the overhead for projects. It's really no-risk for them and it's very vulnerable to bad actors.
Did you consider that you put ALL backers of the particular backing tiers while the game is divided into two waves?
You cannot add everything and then compare it only to some part of the costs.
If an additional 1.75 million is only part of the cost then we have bigger issues.
It may not have been a scam, but it's a scam now because they should swallow cost or refund the backers. End of story. I backed dozens of items the past year and everyone swallowed the cost of chinese shipping over time, every one, even with extras that should not have been added increasing ship price as well they said they'd cover it and they did. Most were first time kick starts too. They are holding your cash and product hostage and it should be 100% illegal. You do not change the rules at endgame, that's just A level top notch dbaggery.
That's the thing too, I had plenty of campaigns that ran into the same problems that were insanely small operations. One in particular was their first campaign for a really big box and instead of demanding money, they explained their challenges and then opened another campaign for donations while offering a small add on card pack as a thank-you. They received overwhelming support. I guarantee if Mythic did this instead of coming in heavy handed with the "pay us now or else" they would have gotten the money they needed voluntarily.
But when they put it on the eshop, how do they pay the shipment and storage costs for that until someone finally buys it?
They do like every other normal company does and foots the overhead to get it to a warehouse where they store it until it sells.
Not to play devils advocate, but I work in a port for the past 5 years and yes shipping cost are up and I mean UP. In 2020 a 40 feet shipping container from china/Europe to North America costed around 4-5K. In may 2021 the same container would ship for 18-22K. Now that same box ships for around 38-44K and theirs a waiting list even at those prices! That’s not normal and I really don’t see how they could have seen that coming when even the best shipping experts I know had no clue this would happen.
Yikes. I was really beat up about not dropping money on it before (love DD & boardgames but nobody to play it with), but now maybe not so much. Didn't know it'd be in backer limbo this later on.
Think I'll just take the rulebooks and recreate the board game using the official art assets lmao. Should be cheaper than this.
It's on tabletop simulator too as a mod atm. Not sure how much it has though
@@ShuffleFM Holy shit thank you! This mod has official scans? Really good stuff! I wanted to use those tile token textures for other projects. Cool!
That's a shame.
Then again, the board game looked like a more tedious version of the video game so...
So I paid the extra shipping. My kickstarter arrived this weekend. The quality is amazing!! Some of the best mini's I have seen.
Here is the problem, I have many games that have came to me, some with even more physical weight, and they didn't ask for more in shipping, and the one that did, oathsworn it was 15 usd. Not 65... so there is that, plus when you split anything into 2 waves it now cost 2 times as much to ship. So lots of incompetence, I have done many KS projects, this is by far the worst I have ever seen. I will never give mythic another cent after this, and pretty sure that's how the community feels.
Kickstarter FAQ, "when do i pay for shipping?"
*Anything you pledge now DO NOT include shipping. It will be charged at later stage in the pledge manner"
LAST UPDATED: OCTOBER 27 2020
why the fuck ppl have ability to pay in internet without ability to read what they sign for. Shipping cost later - ok i donated. Shipping costs skyrocket - guess I'm fucked, i took risk and now have to pay extra. This move felt like total scam and dick move but it was said 2 years ago that there is no shipping payment. Not their fault that costs went up, if they don't state that in faq 2 years ago they would look like total dickheads. But ppl who pay 500$ without reading faq and what they pay for is ridiculous. Now go pay your shipment or wait till shipping costs go down.
Got a link to this? Because the issue isn't that we had to pay shipping, it's that we are having to pay it twice. So if we paid it up front and that was against KS policy then that's an issue.
@@ShuffleFM posted link with reply but idk if it got deleted or yt verification, kickstarter project page > faq > 13rd question "When do I pay for shipping?"
.
"Please note that the money you pledge now DO NOT include shipping. Shipping will be charged at a later stage, in the pledge manager, after you choose exactly what you want to buy and give your address details.
Last updated: Tue, October 27 2020 8:17 PM CET"
Aslo im one of backers and i remember reading this. My initial comment was maybe too harsh but it really makes me sick when ppl dont read faq/description before paying to ks projects.
@@frodo4503 YT probably sniped it since most links get hidden. I'll go see if it's there but thanks for the info. I might do a followup to this and I'll need that most likely.
Man this is super disappointing. I was thinking about pledging too this recently as well, but these anti-consumer practices makes me unwilling.
I don't know shit about fuck when it comes to how expensive it is to make a board game, but they had a pretty substantial backing. Especially when you take into account they were asking for 300k lol.
They have spent the majority of it before paying their expenses ITS A BAD BUSINESS WITH BAD STAFF. Any business that allows itself to spend the money it earnt for development is SUICIDALLY STUPID and that means NEGLIGENT to it's customers. This things dead in the water now.
Do not throw any more money at this, it is paying towards DEBT now rather than development. There will be no board game until you PAY again.
U N A C C E P T A B L E !
🤔 These people should be ashamed.
Video starts at 2:00
They will answer nothing because they are not willing to admit it's not shipping,it's debt due to bad calls or just greed. Forlorn and now Euthia, both ask me for less shipping than the original shipping on this one. I won't pay, I don't care fix it
Optimisitic to assume that the shipping prices will go down, but that's not the most likely scenario.
Expect the next round of being sold your own stuff "while it's on sale".
This comment aged so well. Board game currently 40% off in their store :V
Darkest Dungeon 2 already killed my faith in Red Hook fortunately
I haven’t even looked at DD2…. Is it really bad?
@@scottlarmore5038 it's not that it's a god awful game, it's just not a good sequel to Darkest Dungeon (imo), the dungeon crawling, hamlet and barracks management are completely gone which to me was like the complete identity of Darkest Dungeon. The game as it stands now you do a run to try and beat the game and you either succeed or fail and then start over, it feels more like a Darkest Dungeon spin off that you'd play on your tablet or something. I will say however the new visuals are absolutely great and it seems like they made things less RNG dependent which is good, but other than that i thoroughly enjoy the orginal DD way way more. By all mean give it a try if it looks good to you, just don't go in expecting more Darkest Dungeon cuz this ain't it.
@@jackmeriustacktheritrix Darkest Dungeons identity was its 4 POS combat system honestly, you have a better meta progression now with Altar of Hope anyways
Speculation : They are already bankrupt and they go for one final money grab before declaring it..but even if not:
How can one have faith to receive the product after this ransom policy?
Another lazy unprofessional load of bollocks from a game company, that is unacceptable. If I did this to my customers they'd sue me, and I am a single bloke making medical assistive equipment. You eat your own business costs and if you can't afford to then you charge more. You don't go back to previous customers to beg from them!!
Mythic Games has a story of problems with their kickstarters that date way before the pandemic. Mythic and other companies like CMON underprice their shipping values so more people back the game. If they charged 100+ shipping from the get-go a lot less people would be interested. You cannot possibly hope that this huge chunk of plastic and cardboard could be delivered in your home for just 60 bucks. This was a major red flag that you just opted to ignore. As long as there are people giving these predatory crowdfunding companies (Kickstarter included) money this kind of thing will keep happening again and again.
You can blame us all you want for their lies, but this is the only project they've done this for so far. It's a new occurrence.
Honestly, I'm surprised it's not more money and I think this is one of the worst possible lights to put on this company and game. I'd bet they knew a lot of people would ask for refunds because of this and and that's why they said what they said. Also the thing about them having copies to sell after makes sense, they probably ordered extra copies to sell themselves knowing it was a popular game and to assume they would sell copies already bought is bogus at best. Was there communication problems, sure, but this take is the terrible.
This is why I don’t back Kickstarter anymore
And I’m glad I didn’t take part of this project
You made an error. You said this game raised $5.6milll, shipping is $3.1mill so there is $2.5mill to work with. Except they already charged shipping separately in the PM, which isn't included here. On a very basic estimation (18.000 * $40 + 10.000 * $80) this would equate to another $1.5mill additional shipping before they asked for more money. So there's could be at least $4mill to work with. Subtracting $1.5mill estimated production cost gives you $2.5mill left. There's also about 10% less from the raised amount on kickstarter due to Kickstarter costs (I guess about 3% on everything in the PM, including shipping payments)
You forgot production cost. Thats why shipping is a different charge.
@@derraldlosey1118 I said " Subtracting $1.5mill estimated production cost gives you $2.5mill left." So not sure why you think I forgot production cost.
Shipping, except last man shipping or whatever it is called (to your door) is always included into msrp, so it shouldn't really be charged separately in the first place. I don't pay for freight when I buy a game.
@@bassmeo3937 eh missed that at the bottom because of the weird order you ran that in. You do pay freight when you buy the game its just included in the msrp. In KS its not and is added into shipping cost. You pay it either way though.
Start with the - for advertising, - charge for using the IP , + 5.6 mil - 10% off the top for ks charge, - development costs (part of that would be pre launch) , - manufacturing costs, + shipping charge, - transport, - freight, - distribution center, - shipping. Way too many factors that are not even vaguely covered here. They probably won't be ether. Between the negative you start with for advertising, IP, and the cost to develop the game you don't know the correct start point.
You should do an update with the recent B.S. Mythic has dropped on backers.
I'll look into it. Anything specific you can send my way?
This is exactly the reason why I quit supporting KS. I understand an individual trying to produce something they wouldn’t have the means to create, not large companies that continue to use KS as a pre order system. These are two profitable companies that can easily cover the increase in shipping. But because of (I’m sorry to say this) people like you, the “I want my game so I’ll pay more for it.” Companies continue to do this.
Want a helpful suggestion, File a class action lawsuit. You’ll get your game or a full refund (eventually)
No worries, I'm definitely an enabler in this situation since this is my favorite game franchise. First and last time lol
A setback, but not the end of things!
A setback? Man this is commercial suicide!
@@DailyCorvid not for Red Hook, they'll live
Its not a scam plenty of people who are informed on the board game space have covered this. Look up board game co and their coverage.
all in backer here, one of the worst kickstarter moves ever seen, mythic might have won the money battle here but they shot themselves in both feet and the ass for future projects. nobody, including myself, will support them after this
Mythic Games are known for their incompetence.
Man, it’s…god it’s been disappointing, asking my family for this over two years ago for Christmas (to chip in, anyway) and this additional news has just made things worse.
I 100% get it. But like, *god* has this sucked.
Huge miss information in your video! No they won't sell your game if you don't pay them now. They produced an overstock for the E-shop specifically, they confirmed this in their weekly live video multiple times before. If you backed, your copy will be held for you until your shipment cost are paid or until they no longer can store it. At which they will surely send an email with date limits and more. They won't turn around and just sell it to ''double dip'' like you said. That reaction is purely speculation and is putting words their mouths. The only time they will sell ''your'' copy is if you get a refund from your pledge, now they can do what the hell they want with that copy.
Even if Mythic has an online store, in which they are more than allowed to do even if all their previous projects were Kickstarters. They are not really ''hiding'' behind KS. KS is only the platform for the project, everything was handled in the PM (Pledge manager) over at Gamefound once the KS closed. KS is literally the middle man here that only offers the platform, collects the money, takes a cut, sends the rest to the creator. They do nothing else once the project is funded and finished, it's only up to the creators to take it from there. Business wise it's only smart to create more copies and sell more online as the KS funded the development of it.
As for the calculation of the pledge shipment costs, it's assuming that the 3.1$M is for both waves and not just wave 1. They never really said what that amount covers in that cost, we are only assuming it's for both waves. + A bunch of people probably added a bunch of add-ons (Sleeves, organizer, extra hero box, deluxe 3D tokens, play mate, etc) or extra copies as well. While we can estimate base off the preliminary numbers that are shown on KS, it still doesn't take into account extra and even possible refunds that were already issued in the almost 2 years since that update.
That said, they should of given more time for backers to pay. Yes it's a bit late for people to fork over more money and only have 10ish days. They should of waited to ask backers to pay shipping cost once they are at the shipping phase and not charge ahead of time. Charging the same amount as what we have now, but only in 1 go instead of 2 (potentially 3) would of went over way smoother. They also should of given a little incentive for people to pay more like a % discount on another game or future project as a thank you.
The reason I said they will sell your game is because they will "hold it until they can't". What else could that possibly mean, especially when they say they won't do the overstock until their *first* backers receive it?
After filming this I read into them a bit more and it says they've done 10 KS projects total. Any other company would be financially solvent and running independently as a business at that point. Instead they do everything through KS or gamefound. The name of the entity is irrelevant. The point is they can skirt certain business laws by not operating as a store.
As for your 3rd point that's why I was saying they need to give us the numbers. If they're gonna ask for this they need to give us a breakdown of how they used the previous money. There's also no explanation for what they are asking and the fact that the money from backers wouldn't match. Unless they misspoke, but without seeing the hard numbers we can't be certain.
Yes they should have given us more time, for reasons already stated.
I find it really frustrating how obnoxiously trusting people are of multi million dollar companies. Just because they SAY one thing doesn't mean that's the truth. People lie, and companies that are looking at financial problems are incentivized to lie more, not less. Look at what gets said at any 'on the rocks' companies' shareholders meetings, it's nothing but positive spin after positive spin, which is just another form of lying.
In this particular case we don't need to take them blindly at their word, because Shuffle (and many others besides him) have correctly deduced the obvious implications beneath their words.
Of particular note, and not brought up by Shuffle, is that Monolith Games CEO has recently come out and assured their Kickstarter backers that they won't be seeing a shipping increase, and they have revealed in detail the exact cost breakdown of shipping for them, both pre and post current year. He straight out says that the recent happenings have only marginally increased shipping for them and they're going to eat the modest cost increase on their end. Seeing the numbers he posted, and then looking at what Mythic is asking for their customers, greatly brings into question the amount of money they're asking for. Monolith ships board games of comparable size from the same region as Mythic, but they aren't seeing massive shipping cost increases? That makes Mythic look really REALLY bad, and a lot of people are speculating that they ran out of money and this isn't really to cost shipping, but is actually funding needed to make up their own margins.
facebook.com/816448163/posts/pfbid02tLVEu1QKhU5XpZcCVRtYCBBY1HiApANbjzLZkSE8uJFz61iFJgnr9UAsPmn9pCXQl/?sfnsn=scwspmo
@@ShuffleFM I don't like how this is handled whatsoever, but you clearly are a video gamer and not a board gamer primarily who deals with Kickstarter but when people are telling you actual facts that you're getting wrong in your video, dude just listen to the few points you were getting wrong. You don't even know what a PM is as you admitted in this video. A pledge manager is where you pay for shipping, extra items you want, and where late backers buy a copy when they missed the campaign.
People are not "defending the company actions" when they're clarifying some points like this comment was. They only "double dip" if they refund you and even then that's not an automatic assumption. If they did that they'd be the first company to do that ever and you'd have a whole bunch of videos on it without a doubt, so you're totally wrong about that assumption and said it about 4 times this video. They COULD do that but...it would be a pioneering fuck you to their backers. Any company that's had to do this has either, held onto your game until you paid, potentially having higher shipping costs when you do pay due to storage and shipping one game instead of a batch, offered a refund so they could sell it to someone else, or just sent it anyway later.
This has happened quite a bit with these big box games with the costs recently. Board game companies are pretty small, even the big ones, and their profit margins are shit compared to other businesses. Most of the companies that have done this so far have been transparent well ahead of the time that they are in need of funds so they usually offer promo cards or incentives as a thank you like, some have given 10% off for life as an apology and thank you. Mythic games handled this exceptionally poorly. But most people who paid attention knew something was up because they had lay offs a bit ago. The short notice demand with 10 days to go when we're in the start of a recession with inflationary costs hitting people hard, and the poorly written unclear update is rather egregious. I didn't back this game, but I have one from them in later stages of production and I'm sitting here waiting pissed off for what they're doing when the time comes
@@nipzie Please don't assume I cannot critically think about something because I didn't know an acronym. I know what a pledge manager is, it just slipped my mind that it's shorthanded as PM. The people that are saying I'm wrong about them selling a backers game for not paying have not answered the most basic question: If you cannot pay, they hold it for "as long as possible". What will they do with it after?
I have no problems making a revision or a followup if Mythic can give us the relevant information. I would like to believe they just screwed up to a huge level and it's all incompetence, but I will need to see evidence of that first.
@@ShuffleFM If they can't hold it any longer, then they will probably send emails and contact the affected people before just ''selling it''. Even then, it's assuming that they will do that. They will probably try to get the game in your hands as much as possible. But at this point everything we say about that situation is purely a speculation in either way and is not even worth answering. While it can go one way or another, assuming the worst or the best is a waste of time and only creates a pointless discussion. Only time will tell in what direction they take.
They worded their update horribly and it's easy to get upset at the situation and go on a tangent. I myself wasn't really happy about how they handled it. But if they only had delays in the past but delivered good products that are well liked by the community, for myself, I can at least give them the time they need to make it right by their backers. For the amount of minis and stuff DD has, I am still surprised the shipping didn't cost more even after the latest shipping update. But I can only speak for myself.
Reminds me of the air umbrella. Great kickstart story. Watch penguin RUclips video about it
Considering the events of the past 2 years, I wouldn't necessarily say mismanagement. With how enormously costs have risen there could be very good reason that they can't manage the current numbers, and it could be that they are trying to make up for those who do not spend the money so they raised it a bit higher to give themselves a cushion of people who don't pay. Not trying to make much excuses but it's worth considering there are reasonable things behind such and we shouldn't jump to the belief it is simply bad. It seems more to me a dying company trying to stay above water rather than an evil company.
Yes it’s a Scam. The Last Update Kicked me Hard …
Gonna make a vid soon because it's bs lol
My son’s came in the mail today, big box. 👍
It looks like illegal extortion… also the Mythic Business Model is like a Ponzi Scheme… Right now consider all my future MG Pledges as already lost und will not pay them more money. If i cloud, i would withdraw all pledges already made to them.
Asked for a refund right after getting these news mailed to me. Not paying a cent more.
Why would you play a worst version of a game you already own??
Great breakdown.
Thank you for the information.
This is the first time I ever heard about a DD boardgame. And im a big DD fan!
I geuss i didint miss much.
You missed a lot, it's shaping up to be a really good game with fantastic minis. They asked backers to contribute to rising costs of everything to be able to ship the game soon. That's all.
Got my copy today - 21.10.2022
Uh oh. Things aren't looking good.
Not a scam, just shit company
Go find a channel that actually covers board games and knows the industry. This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
I don't what your on about. I found out from this video that a Kickstart item I backed in a old email isn't arriving. I found out on August 9th (again old email), so I'm long past when I could get it. So I basically lost 40+ bucks on what I originally spent. I mean I probably could send angry emails that I'll get ignored. I'm just saying it seems like a fucken scam to me.
@@Therealpiemaster123 The guy that made this video doesn't know what he is talking about. Board Game Co is a channel that covers ks board games and understands the industry what is going on with them. Hes made a few videos on what is going on with them.
@@derraldlosey1118 I looked into the channel. Watch the 3 hour video and to summarize it. The pandemic and other this came up and they said it would cost x but x became X plus Y, and here are examples of companies that have done worse things also I get free products from the company but you should ignore that because I don't consider this bias sense "believe" I'd be more beneficial to be negative. Basically Poor corporation. See the way I see it is, American Airline sells more tickets then seats on a plane. It's not the customer fault that United airlines is greedy so when 2 security beat and pull a man off the flight. I blame the airline and he doesn't. When you buy a 1 year subscription and the company selling the subscription stops providing the service that same month its not the customer fault. I belive CNN should refund those who did not get what they paid for, he'd argue they only paid for entry and what's behind the door isn't on CNN. And finally when Mythic says this will cost 20 bucks when they think it would cost 10-25 buck it's not the customer fault that they bought the product at 20 bucks when it could have been priced at 25. He said well they would of lost business. I say fuckem. My word means something. All he told me is that mythic and his words aren't work the oxygen to say them.
Your calculations are absolutelly uninformed dude. Its clear that you dont know nearly nothing regarding the production cost for graphic design, game design and several other really hardcore expenses. Other thing is, you forget to notice kickckstarter cut fees. Speaking about your complains for raising additional funds.. the cost for a single container from china is 10x higher than it was year ago du to Covid. Its only the one reason why companies asking backers for additional money. So sorry, no. Adapt to a post covid era, or sit and wait for better days.
What calculations lol. I used the numbers they gave us and it doesn't match what they're asking. Not that deep dude.
@@ShuffleFM Your where they spent 1 000 000 dollar complain?
@@ShuffleFM Btw before you accuse someone from SCAM do your homework and research more info about the company past track records. Mythic games sent errata packs full of cards to customers on their own expenses and that is only one of many customer friendly moves. When you want numbers.. here you go i hope it will open your eyes.. The price of 1 container from China was at the time of kickstarter 3 000 usd now the price is approx. 30 000 Usd. Not speaking about resources inflation. If a triple A company with a good reputation is asking you for more money due to shipment its not a Scam but it is Panic button trigger from them.
Aged like milk
i hope they get a class action lawsuit. and yes, Mythic Games does sound like a bunch of scammers to me, they are lying about the values and keeping the products hostage and extorting people.
MFW somehow shuffle has less karma than I do: 🤔
FR tho why do you only have 8k karma? I thought someone like you would have a shit ton xd
I rarely use reddit :P
@@ShuffleFM The man, The myth, the legend, replying to the common man xd
EA pledge is an anti-consumer practice with myriad of disastrous outcome and this is possibly going to be just one more such case. I get your frustration but acting surprised doesn't seem quite fitting. The 'artist' you were investing in turned out to be quite the money monger, but that's just a known inevitable course of EA pledge by design which is no different from gambling. I hope you either 'win' or let this serve as a lesson on what you might not want to get into in the first place. Your money, your rules.
i would like it if you put the mic closer thank you
Ponzi Scheme
You're all on drugs if you think the game is a scam ....
The game is not the scam. Having paid for it is a scam because they didn't actually spend that money on the pre-promised production run. No instead they just spent it all as if it were profit, when it was development funds.
REPEAT : They took money for development, and chose to just spend it on themselves instead. So now they need paying AGAIN and this time, maybe they will NOT just spend it all on their own stuff and fail to invest in their own game being made. Terrible scam, no excuse.
I’ll just steal pieces at the board games store to make my own dnd campaign
Time for the pitch forks
This sound a bit illegal...
Lol glad I didn't trust Redhook enough to dump money into promo shit, they only screwed me over selling me a game I don't like.