@@plushdragonteddy Well, part of his defence was that stupid. The other part of his defence was "your, honour, as you can see this knife was clearly not the murder weapon since when it is sheathed you cannot see blood on it."
Even if the network code was perfect, gameplay mods that don't match would still cause desyncs. Every player simulates the whole game, so if one player has a mod that makes all their tiles give +1 production or something, the other players' games would disagree, and that would cause a desync.
i play a lot of paradox games and if there is a mismatch in mods you usually can't even join a game and if you somehow can the games will constantly desync.
@@jainabraina Well that's only a problem if the mod actually affects the game, if the mod is fully clientside and only does something like give you extra information then it should work, but probably wouldn't with Civ anyways.
Civilization isn't meant to be primarily a competitive multiplayer game, I don't understand why people want to treat it like one. Expecting anticheat features on par with games that have few real redeemable qualities outside their multiplayer lobbies is like expecting halloween candy to taste as savory as bacon. I really hope they don't try to make civ 7 to be better for competitive multiplayer because that makes the game less fun to explore with different civilizations and I like to be able to modify my game for single player. If you disagree I would like to invite you to go play call of duty and leave good single player games to those who appreciate them.
Ok what's really convincing is moving the settler before moving the scout. Not even an intermediate player would make this mistake, as everyone has had the unfortunate mistake of moving a settler into fog of war only to be captured by a barbarian immediately.
Ive only played single player ive had cities on Diety that could produce a 2 turn settler. I spam them out with Magnus if i run out of areas for Districts or Wonders as soon as possible . I use them like warriors which replace my scouts i never build in the first place
The hiatus while cheats don't work due to patch conflicts is one of the biggest red flags in almost any game. I remember even as far back as playing Unreal Tournament 2k4 there were these high profile players in my region community who would be disappear when new patches roll out that made aimbots unsafe to use.
The edited screenshots in the appeal completely seal the deal. This removes even the tiniest bit of doubt that he was somehow just lucky in every single game.
well technically, if he actually was innocent (he wasn’t) he could doctor the evidence cause he thinks that’s his best chance of proving his innocence. Its like trying to convince someone of a conclusion you agree with with a bad argument because that person will like the bad argument better than the good argument
@@rogerli5329Yeah I mean he probably would have just been better off by saying "I didn't do it" then pulling a dream and coming up with a literal defense. Not saying that it SHOULD be this way, but for real most innocent people don't feel like they should have to defend themselves by coming up with evidence, and even in trials just refuting the prosecution's evidence is usually better than trying to put forward a sketchy defense because you run the risk of people not believing you
@@rogerli5329 I see what you mean but, I somewhat disagree. Putting out a defense that relies on deciet runs the risk of blowing up in your face. In which case, you're either doing it because you are indeed guilty or you don't have anything to lose from lying (Ex. jailtime or the death penalty, any means to try to defend yourself will likely be exhausted). Most innocent people will likely put out was seems to be a truthful reasonable response (at least if presented correctly), before using deceit. Moving straight to deceit doesn't inspire a sense of credibility from others, and innocent people often rely and maintain this if they can help it. Guilty people understand that you have to manufacture credibility.
I remember one of Hersons recently uploaded videos was Andrew and some other player just yapping. Super annoying and unfunny, but I assumed Andrew was just an irritating individual. Even people like myself who aren't that great at civ6 can clearly see how bad Andrew's moves should be.
I've seen the dude in a few different civ steams always came off really egotistical and unlikeable. Its always crazy to me that people who cheat can inflate themselves to such a degree when they are competing against those who aren't.
It is also possible that he doesn’t want to damage his rating point advantage as ranking even 2nd in any casual lobby could seriously reduce his lead. This also explains why he doesn’t use the information moderately. It’s because even this cheating can only advance his game start by a small amount. Converting a bad start to a decent start or a decent start to a good start.
@@blaubeer8039actually, if he played without cheating for that month it would have covered up his cheating better. He would have looked like a normal player with ups and downs in their playing history. Instead, he never took a dip - the behavior that actually got him caught.
I love Karl but I had to go to the source like you to support the smaller original RUclipsr as when others cover the topic it kinda steals from the OP although a lot of people wouldn't have seen this video without others covering it
@@VotdTrades uuuhh... he is bigger youtuber, with over million subs, and because of him you learned about this right? How is he stealing from original? Im hear as well after seeing Karls video.
I don't play the game, but getting rid of a cheater to make a community of passionate players a better place deserves praises. Good on you man. Cheers.
I was sold on him cheating just by you guys painting the path of his scouts and warriors going straight towards goodie huts and city states. His edited appeal photos sealed the deal, lol.
How did he not think he'd get caught lmao. Even a semi intelligent cheater could have used the same methods, I'd be surprised if someone else doesn't do the same but actually tries to hide it
@@DingLiren-nw2vj he'd been getting away with it for years at the top of the leaderboard. It makes sense that someone becomes complacent at that point.
@edgeman1135 not to mention his trueskill rating was so high that he had to win every game to maintain it, necessitating even harder and more obvious cheating
Cheaters never realise that you can't fool a player with thousands of hours of experience in a game. Watching you break down his bizarre plays like this really highlights how blatant he's being from a game-sense perspective. Great stuff!
I kinda like how you poked fun at the new #1 joking about being investigated for being lucky, gawked at it, and then literally investigated his game. lol.
What sealed the deal for me was when he made bad moves that were actually perfect moves by using forbidden knowledge. Everything else after that was gravy.
I believe no one actually noticed. He was doing that because you have to actually play the game against him and then use this program to open the map. Unlike a lot of other games that are played competitively, where we can independently verify the results
He's not trying to prove it to the mods though, he's "proving" it to the people who give him money and refuse to believe that someone that they support is cheating. Billy Mitchell and other obvious liars do the same thing
But also now that the civ community knows the mods method of detection they can just easily throw in some random error... in removing one cheater they have just made one hundred others stronger
@@GyandhiWorkshop Not really? One "error" does not erase suspicious about how "lucky" someone seems to be getting, over and over and over. Now that people know how to detect this kind of cheating, in Civ 6 MP there is 0 "reliable" ways to cheat. They'd have to purposefully lose games in order to properly throw people off the scent. And people who cheat on leaderboards do it to look better or because they feel they deserve the win, so someone's highly unlikely to think that far ahead.
@PointsofData Who said 'one error', you did, and then made an argument against it. If you read what I commented you can clearly see that I wrote ''*some* random error', *some* doesn't mean one, idiot. This particular cheater literally did the most optimum openers for years in a row and was number one for years and he only just got caught, I think its clear that CIV6 doesn't have good cheat detection if any at all since the mods couldn't identify the biggest and most obvious of any potential cheaters. When you say a cheater would have to purposefully loose games... yes now you are beginning to understand, cheaters do it to have an upper hand but they are balancing the art of being undetected, they previously may have chosen to not do 100% perfectly optimal lines and chose to do 80% for example, but now with this video released they may drop it down lower on average and fluctuate around this average. Cheaters are c**** but they are not brainless, they will purposefully loose 1 in x games to remain undetected, why do you find that to be impossible? what's impossible about that
@@GyandhiWorkshop Someone who's trying to stay at the top of the leaderboard while cheating would risk losing that spot any time they intentionally made "mistakes" or threw a game, though. The video mentioned that in this guy's case, even coming in second lost him points. It would be a really tricky balancing act to lose just enough to avoid suspicion, but not enough to drop ranks. No need for the insults, by the way.
Man I love bombshell documentaries that are well-communicated in such a manner that a *complete outsider* can process the information. Take my algorithmbucks.
33:09 - "Oh no, the person who used an aimbot to reliably achieve 100% headshot accuracy onto 5 enemies within a fraction of a second while spin jumping out of a vent every single turn in competitive Counterstrike has been banned. Now I'm really worried I'll get banned when I get a headshot, which is basically the same thing."
I mean things of that essence isn't unheard of. A few months ago there was a player who won a warhammer 40k tournament who got banned for "modeling for advantage". Then when under review it was shown the player was acting in accordance to an earlier ruling that contradicted the new one, the judge basically declared that the player should've known the earlier ruling was wrong, and upheld banning him from the tournament because apparently it is up to the players to know the correct rules of the game, and not the judges. (This also ignores several other issues in the ruling) There are always some moderators who view the point of their position is to abuse it.
Well, once I was playing cs 1.6 and accidentally made a double headshot with one bullet. One guy was in front of the door and the other happened to be behind it. I felt like the luckiest man alive for a solid 30 seconds until the admin saw this in the kill log and banned me 😂
Lol I can tell you from personal experience people who spinbot and have 100% headshot accuracy do not get banned in counter strike so you wont need to worry about that
@@bewawolf19 ...in what world is defending ignorance of the rules as a way to circumvent the rules a good take on cheating? You're framing taking a tournament loss as ridiculous when you cheat to gain and advantage if you didn't know you were cheating...so why not just claim ignorance every single time you're caught cheating? Why give high level tournament players leeway to ignore rules changes? They should be pretty damn on top of what is and isn't allowed, for a competitive advantage (in understand what their opponents and themselves are permitted) if nothing else.
@@ALittleMessi Apparently both ❂_❂ (then again i can only imagine what monstrosity it would look like if you maximized scouting range despite knowing where everything already was..)
the only time any of those moves could be natural is if it was me playing, because 5 hours in I'm going to be braindead and do inefficient things- the difference is that I will not be getting lucky 100% of the time xD I am just actually bad
12:15 "There is clear best move that any strong player would spot immediately" Well well well. I'd say that I never did consider myself as a strong player but here I am.
Your warrior is already west of the river, it's your first scout and you're going to produce more. My first scout would always go away from the direction I've already revealed in the "absurd" east. He then gets locked into 5 turns of hill moves to move eastwards(this unflat land is not something revealed before the move, herson's worst arguements). The settler move immediately after that to the northwest is the safe move, not into fog northeast before the scout escort is available. The actual settle at 14:30 following that after recrossing river and without moving scout first is the damning thing rather than logical.
AoE4 has a player like this too. Except the AoE4 guy imo is FAR worse as he uses his cheating to get civs nerfed by showing how 'op' they are. Both cheaters have the same energy of 'i don't like the game I just want to prove a point'
The way you break down every single thing about the game was actually really awesome. Im not a civ player so that definitely helps me understand everything. Thank you, Great video!
i would love to know off the top of your head some more examples worth looking up. In return, one i adore is the aaron1912 titanic v-break debunk, an episode of which features the greatest passive aggressive description of sinking I've ever heard
@@OutbackCatgirl MsScribe is hilarious. Vintage 2002 era sockpuppetry and fake threats over fanfiction of all things all carried out by middle aged lawyers. Roblox oof and plagiarism and youtube are also incredible, both by hbomberguy. Probably the best examples of this I can think of. Some stuff by Dan Olsen aka foldingideas are really funny too. It's not QUITE hobby drama, but it's stuff like extremely thorough roasts of Nostalgia Critic's review of Pink Floyd, or absurdly in depth takedowns of NFTs as a concept, or just making fun of silly techbro trends. Guy's got a super dry sense of humor and makes it all very entertaining.
lmao i love how this video was recommended to me, none of the topics are relevant to me yet I enjoyed it. I have no idea who Andrew is, but "Boooooo!!!! you stink!". Thanks for the educational and entertaining video about a game used to play.
I used to be a part of Civ IV quasi multiplayer SGOTM (Succession Game of the Month) where teams would plan and play a single player game against other teams, playing the same start. Those games were as optimal as they could get but the maps were always cooked by the mapmaker to be more fun and different. Our top player, who definitely had skill, would always have an assumption about the mapmaker's intentions to use a map type feature, e.g. in a great lake map there was a body of water which normally could or could not have an island. He convinced us to prioritize a galley and some units to scout the island of untold riches. Indeed he was right. And when you see end results, it also made sense. However, if that was a dud, we would have crippled our normal game quite a bit and since we were all strong players, we normally would win any standard game so risk for us was actually higher if we stray from more standard path. At that time, I thought that he was really outside of the box thinker, however, later on he had had many leap of faith assumptions which ALL paid off and me and one more teammate started getting suspiscious. Especially as he was very aggressively pushing the idea against the consensual best move based on the info we had without strong arguments (remember we were all very strong players with many individual successes). I ended up leaving the team and have suspicions about the validty of my gold medals with that team. I will never have a proof.
Honestly, just leaving due to suspicion (which in this case seems warranted) is proof enough that you have integrity for the game and community. An actual cheater would have happily went along and kept getting the benefit. Good for you to stick to your priciples.
And you were probably right. After enough decades of gaming I've developed a rule that if I think they're cheating, I may as well assume they are. Plenty of times it's friends in Counter-Strike, I point out fishy things to mutual friends, *_always_* hear the same "c'mon man, you KNOW him, you KNOW he's good, you KNOW he's not cheating". And then because VAC always takes so long to update itself to new hacks... it's inevitable that like 3 years later the guy will finally get banned for cheating. "Yup, called it." There's the additional consideration of what I call the Lance Armstrong Effect (and I highly recommend people check out the early Joe Rogan episode with Lance, along with.... there was another guy around the time, I think his name started with a V, and he had ran an Olympics doping / cheating regime, and discussed how that worked and how people got away with cheating... really helps to understand the psychology of it.) Anyway, Lance Armstrong: let's assume he's simply the best cyclist out there, but when he's faced with an opponent who starts to cheat (steroids), in order to stay at the top, he'd have to start cheating as well in order to retain his position. And that goes for everyone around him. When Lance was stripped of his titles for cheating, it had turned out that... I think it was 27 of the 32 people he competed with at the top all tested positive for the steroids, and one can assume the other 5 were probably just using a different sort that weren't covered by the tests. Ofc, the biggest, more prestigious the game & titles, the more likely you'll get people trying to cheat... maybe Civ6 multiplayer is small enough that there's only one cheater, but I doubt it. One hates to think like that, but there's good odds a lot of the people around the top are cheating. The difference is that while they might have perfect knowledge of the map, they're choosing to not be so blatant about their scout moves... and you likely won't be able to tell. Or, hopefully, maybe it was just this one guy. (The mentality of the cheater is always a weird thought... the trolling cheater we can understand, the guy who likes to piss people off; the cheater in high-stakes poker makes all the sense in the world; the cheater in a high-status, popular game, looking for that #1 rank makes _some_ sense; but the cheater who knows he's the only one cheating in a game without high stakes, who's doing it just to win a bit more than the others around him, for no other reason than to just win... I don't think I can understand those people, since it's gotta make those wins feel SO empty.)
@@TransRoofKorean Lance armstrong effect, didn't know about it, but it make sense, pure logic, i totally agree with ya. but as a solo PVE cheater i can say : wins don't feel empty, or maybe put it another way, all the rest game is enjoyable and so the "win" i don't cheat on PVP because 1 i don't like pvp now (but i used to play a lot of pvp games) 2 i respect my opponents and the rules of a Multiplayer game but i can say if i was cheating on PVP games it won't harm my joy. it's more of a "tolerance" gauge : in a card game cheating by looking the first card of the deck is not the same as giving you a hand full of ace. i will enjoy the game if i cheat moderately (for me) but not if i abuse it. i think most ranked cheater have a really high gauge, they don't care if they take all the Ace&face of the deck or cripple your hand by giving you only 2&3, they will enjoy it. ---------------------- Each time i see a case of ranked cheater, they insult ppl intelligence, and make really dumb decision, like why are you cheating ALL THE DAMN TIME, you will be easier to spot, just do it moderatly, you will learn experience and get better at the game by turning off your cheat and compare when you are cheating. why you use the cheat at 100% it make the thing incredibly obivious, for a aimbot at 20% you did have already a huge advantage and it make way less remarkable. so may questions...
@@straycat5045 An interesting part of that "Lance Armstrong Effect" is the effect that it has on competitive gaming in which cheating is relatively easy (like installing a hack... perhaps on the firmware of a mouse that you plug in to a venue's computers). The rumor gets out that this or that guy, this or that guy is cheating, but you can't simply accuse publicly since you can't prove it; as a result it's "where do I get these hacks?" / "I can show you where: this guy here will sell you a hack customized for you so that in case anyone else gets caught they won't then detect yours, his starting fee is $3000 depending on what you want." Most of your top teams end up cheating (ie., Counter-Strike), or at least having SOMEONE there who is; but then those running the tournaments, those who are organizing advertisers and events so they can pay out prizes and get people to compete... When they're also part of that company that runs the anti-cheat (VAC), they now have an incredibly powerful disincentive that keeps them from nailing the cheats their pros are using. After all, while if anything it shows how enviable being good at your game is if random nobodies are cheating, if it turns out those who are considered pros are cheating... those you've given prizes to... [RIP Tour de France & Lance Armstrong's legacy]... nothing looks worse than the determination that many of your top players are cheating. And so, they avoid it at all costs. But I'm told I'm crazy. Civ6 is just a niche game, so that's why Andrew gets to the top by cheating. Tour de France... eh, they're bicyclists, who cares? In CS, those players are CLEARLY good. They're certainly not cheating!!! (lol.)
But in this case, it’s even worse. Not even a hypothetical Civ 6 engine could make the moves that Andrew did because Andrew was moving based on information that an engine wouldn’t have.
Andrew was playing civ like he was playing chess. With perfect information. While all other players and even the hypothetical perfect civ engine would be playing with imperfect information. Literally making better moves than any hypothetical perfect Civ engine moves could ever be.
But it is even clearer than that. In chess you could always have some doubt that somehow the player was smart enough to find the engine move (at least with players who do not cheat >500 Elo points above their true level). You need to find a clear pattern. But here, the pattern of movement makes no sense with the information he should have had. "I know best how scouting works" doesn't apply here, since no level of skill (beyond computing the seed number to a map in your brain and then memorizing it perfectly, which is ridiculous) could achieve what he did.
@@nilsp9426 Playing a move or game like over 500 elo above is not that impossible to happen. There are players that are good with puzzles but suck in game. Like me for example. For reference i have 1200 elo rapid and 2400 elo in puzzles lol
It's uncommon that when I'm jumping into an essay about something that I know nothing about, I get answers to the questions you'd actually ask. So thanks.
Cheaters tend to be notorious liars. they're dangerous individuals with which you want nothing to do with in life. If they already cheat and lie to you in a game, why shouldn't they do it in reality?
@@jyutzlerThere's been a few in other games who started their response with "welp, you got me." or similar. good example: Jadiwi in pokemon speedrunning
lowkey struggled with scouting and stuff being new to civ and yet here i find myself watching essentually a tutorial disguised as a cheater exposed Respect +
You can either do the 2 tile move across flat plains or the 1 tile vertical move onto the hill. Here in Sid Meier’s Civilization, no one chooses to move onto the hill. It’s better to be safe and do the two tile move to reveal more of the map rather than risk your entire turn for just half a goodie hut more.
I would choose to move onto the hill, so it's not nobody! I'm sure the fact I haven't touched Civ in a decade and have always been trash at strategy games might have something to do with that, though.
In Sid Meier’s Civilization, I learned that you can accomplish anything with a 360 Fog Of War Skip. You can even bribe the Civilization Pros with your screenshots.
I'm not defending Andrew, but I have a question. I thought moving on a hill tile would be okay cause Hills let the unit see further. Is it actually a bad move? Edited: btw I've only played a few singleplayer games
I remember first watching UnderCiv playing CPL way back, and Andrew was always such a meme in the chat or as a joke in the games due to his weird play style. Just absolutely griefing, its gonna be weird watching now after this revelation, if he takes the shame and leaves the game for good. Either way, good work by the CPL admins and to Herson for explaining in such detail and with evidence for us non-CPL players, who just send their scout in what looks like the best direction in the moment
reminds me of how dream was caught. him refusing to name the "statistician" he "hired" was the admission of guilt for me. if you have haters, they will always find a way to get to you
I can say this about scouting preferences: I do like to scout my mountain ranges and coasts first; they don't provide scouting benefits, but a mountain range is a good natural barrier to anchor against. And I can say for certain that this does decrease the performance of scouting, but since I don't play competitively, I don't really care about that.
Sadly almost all games attract a cheater at some point, especially if there are rankings involved. Some of them would even have been very succesful without cheating. One good comparison is Riolu cheating in several Trackmania titles. He was only able to cheat without streaming. He regularly broke records while streaming. But somehow it seems like he thought he deserved the ones he didn't get. He then frequently got them offline using a software that slowed down the game, granting him superhuman precision. Maybe Andrew's case is similar: maybe he was frustrated with bad luck at the beginning of the game, thinking he deserved better. He does seem like a decent player, since no one suspected him cheating before and he was able to convert his early advantages so often.
@@nilsp9426 It doesn't make any sense to me. I've cheated in online games before, only really to see what stuff like wallhacks were like, never played any sort of ranked while cheating. Maybe it's because I played sports through high school, but there is no joy in winning if it's not due to me being better than the other person. In baseball, there was nothing better than striking a batter out, knowing you beat him both physically and mentally. It's kinda the same thing with competitive games, although Rocket League is the only game where I made it to the top 5%. Even when my family has game nights, I sometimes catch some of my family members cheating and I just don't understand the fun in winning if you didn't accomplish it with the same constraints everyone else had. Does it give people a sense of satisfaction to beat someone else when you have a handicap? Or is it about being recognized? Though I don't think I'd find joy in being recognized for something I didn't do.
People will cheat at literally anything even if there is no money and no clout to be gained in it. There are 0 games that dont have someone (trying to) cheat. Like when you were a little kid playing card games or board games with your brothers and you cheated when they werent looking. Some people just never grow out of that phase.
For future purposes, I would recommend, that all CPL match replay files need to be saved and provided after the match has ended. This actually was the case for counterstrike back in the day as well (1.3 - 1.5 era) to investigate shenanigans and find cheaters. That there is no such system, actually baffles me a bit, but on the other hand, MP in Civ is a bit niche, so it might be understandable.
@@n.m.6027 A small file server is something one dude can afford, literally. Or just run an FTP server on someone's machine. Or just upload the saves to a free file hosting service so people can download it and keep on their machine, a communal database between people. So many options that are either free or cost like 5$/month.
That's an incredible amount of work to do for a volunteer-run unofficial tournament org to take in order to preserve community trust. Massive respect. I have no plans to play Civ IV at all but I guess now I know how to optimally scout! lol
Oh man, someone call an ambulance. What a slam dunk. I watched the entire thing. Really appreciate the thorough analysis and all the work you and the CPL team do. Thank you. Also great vid.
Hey dude awesome content just wanna let you know russian speedrun thief Naritsa just stole your video, its called "Крупнейший читерский скандал в Civilization 6 | Расследование". Karl Jobst made video about him a couple days ago.
If they had put even a little effort into obfuscating their actions, this would have been impossible to find. Scout while it loads, adjusting later, to reduce delay. Path to high terrain for vision, and flat terrain for distance, before committing, even if it eats up a few turns. Always moving scouts first into an area before settlers. Building extra scouts just to clear fog. Sure, it might cost a few games in the long run, but still would have provided enough advantage to keep the top spot. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. If the competitive scene wanted to curb this activity, ranked local save games could be limited to the movement range of units each turn, with a server hosting the complete map. This would prevent use of replay or map vision tools, as well as providing an archive of every game, resolving two issues with one auditable solution.
@@Yrojrund the craziest thing is that this whole thing is not even THAT official and made by volunteers, yet he cheated on a monumental level, going straight for the prize every time - it was not that serious, yet this guy felt the need to cheat and win EVERY single time in a row, which ultimately led to his downfall. Theres always ups and downs, but this guy went straight up without a thought in mind. Crazy
See, that's the sad nature of the problem... the odds that Andrew is alone in cheating is pretty much nil, but the "smarter" cheaters won't be caught, because they'll be less blatant. On the bright side, it means they're giving themselves less of an advantage than this guy was. I would estimate that the % of players in any game *_willing_* to cheat is certainly over 10%, probably closer to 20%. Whether or not they do it all the time, how accessible & viable the cheating methods are, the likelihood of being caught, and, well... whether or not they feel any real long-term shame in the cheating, that might make for fewer cheaters, or at least much fewer who cheat all the time. But you're only ever glimpsing the tip of the iceberg of cheating, imo. Thankfully, they're gonna be the ones who are most egregious, the worst of the worst.
@@TransRoofKorean It also depends on how much the developers care to work on anti cheat. In counter strike, at this point, 80% of the players have cheats at least on toggle and they turn it on when they think someone on the other team is cheating or when they start losing. And Valve hasnt done any work on the anti cheat since 2015.
This happened similarly a while back with a friend of mine's teammate. I don't wanna name any names, but he was toxic, insufferable to listen to(according to my friend), and would constantly ask his teammates to do certain scouting moves that suspiciously ended up always working.
More like pre-running a seed, then using a macro to rapidly input that seed into the Minecraft worldgen section for the seedless world record. I think that was Minecravengr? It definitely wasn't Dream, but it was one of the top Minecraft speedrunners.
@@Catman_CM You're thinking of Flowbee. Who maybe wasn't quite a top-top Minecraft speedrunner at the time, but was very much on the rise. Dream was the one with the modified drops RNG, and Minecravenger did a bunch of stuff, including but not limited to modifying dragon behavior, creating impossible chest loot and splicing.
its more like joining a server finding out the map seed and running it on Minecraft Seed on Chunkbase to find all the different structures and map features
Yeah but it's no fun to constantly win because your opponent "concedes" (quits), which happens fairly often in public games. Obviously if you have a legitimate one-off emergency and concede the match it's one thing, but the rule exists to keep people from abusing it all the time.
Possibly the single most damning thing that a cheater can do is to produce doctored screenshots as evidence to prove their innocence, when the investigators have access to the un-edited images.
Bro...imagine seeing the entire map in CiV 6. The funniest part of the entire 6+ hours game is literally first 50 turns. Finding out where to settle a few cities and wobders and huts and barbs and other civs. Like if I saw entire map I would not have fun in the slightest....
I find this whole situation really quite funny. It would be one thing if he was an upstanding pillar of the community, but from what I've seen it isn't like he was particularly well liked. Good riddance.
@@athaya2992 look up riolu in trackmania, probably the most beloved trackmania streamer at the time, and he turned out to having been cheating for almost his whole career
@@athaya2992That might be true but in several cases, high-profile players that turn out to be cheaters are actually really loved and respected within the community. This is what happened with Riolu in the Trackmania community, and really in hindsight it's even more egregious that he could remain such a nice and friendly and respected person on the surface while cheating behind the scenes for a decade, truly some sociopath shit
@TheSuperappelflap yeah, Lance also had a lot of ppl hate him, too. Even some of his own teammates were not always fond of him. I really still consider him the 7 time your winner. Most of the rivals at the time were also doping, he took it to another level and he also had an insane method of training and prep and built a team that only worked for him winning the tour. Plus let's be honest, it still takes a ton of skill and luck to do that 7 times even with some extra help.
Lol guys ... Since I am getting harassed now every second day under my videos: YES my name is Andrew, YES I play Civ6, NO I am not this guy and I don't play Multi. ps: your video is amazing! I learned how to scout better lol :D
Random fun fact of the day: that feeling of second-hand embarrassment, where you feel embarrassed *for* someone else (not embarrassed *by* someone else) is called "fremdschamen." The lesser-known cousin of schadenfreude.
Honestly the amount of depth this investigation goes into to bust a cheater of a niche league in a niche game is entertaining in and of itself. This was incredible
Watched Karl Jobst's video. This is awesome keep up the great work. Multiple consecutive games with no unlucky moves, definitely a cheater. The odds of getting that lucky, you should have bought a lottery ticket instead of playing a video game, trillions to one if not quadrillions to one.
19:23 these Scientific City State maps are absolutely crazy. Even speaking as a "bad" Civ player by the standards of this channel, who doesn't do competitive multiplayer: this is so blatantly map-hacked
What an amazing example of what an investigation is. In depth analysis, good sample size and even reviewing the defense the cheater provided. Well done!
I was playin before novice games was so popular like nowadays. On 10 games 9 times I was on last position, my record was to die on Korea from scytia in 38 turns. It’s good to go on novice to train mid game and late uncontested (usually), but get experience on normal ffa, you will learn how be aware of what ur opponents do, instead of focus only on your own development. Good luck
its really not as bad as you think! I recently started playing a few months ago, you got this! Just make sure you understand all the rules and have the right mods:)
I dont play Civ6 in multiplayer, but it seems like a database of savefiles would be a really good addition to you guys' server, im sure it could be somehow automated and would be great if new cheaters were to pop up to have solid information on games
I have to say this was a very impressive conduct of research. You cross-checked data for bias, reviewed counter-examples, and gave Andrew the benefit of the doubt. The data does not lie. Great job at maintaining a fair and competitive multiplayer community. 👍
i have an extension that adds scott the woz to every thumbnail and other image on youtube and he covered up the thumbnail in such a way that it just said HE COULD SEE which is funny i think
13:05 That move is so obvious with hindsight. 10/10 times you would move towards the horses here as they only cost 1 movement. Instead he moves down towards the mountains where his next tile is guaranteed to cost 2 movement, and sure enough that was necessary for him to find the tribal village just out of sight of the horses
@@512TheWolf512naw Andrew is a pretty weak player in the late game. Everyone who fought a war against him could tell his tactics just weren’t there. Even if he was a God at the development side you don’t respect someone you think you can outplay in combat. And turns out he’s not that great at development either.
@@davidanderegg1232 The fact he felt like he needed to get ahead so hard that he blindly moves his settler to save one turn of movement on his scout says enough, I think, about how he perceived his own chances.
I was rank 1 in CPL for 3 years, and it was never prestigious. It is purely how much time you can spend playing games farming people. Also I always thought Andrew was human filth, and I am glad it has been justified even after 2 years of me no longer playing.
You're just mad Andrew surpassed you. He has intricate knowledge of map generation techniques that allow him to be light years ahead of the competition.
30:11 that “strategy guide” / appeal document is hilarious. not only does it seem like it was created as a preemptive response / inoculation for cheating allegations, but it’s all written in such a smug and condescending way. it reads almost like it was written by AI, or conversely the flesh version of that: someone with marginally above-dumbguy intelligence, who overuses a bunch of STEM terminology & lingo because they think that makes them a genius (and want to comport themselves as such) haha.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh boy, a 30 minute video about a competitive scene for a game I've never played? And at 1:30 in the morning? Sign me up
3 days later I’m in exactly the same boat!
Same but 3 am here lol
I feel personally attacked! 😂😂
I'm addicted to these types of videos
I know right? I love watching someone else's drama, in which I am not involved at all. Fuck that Andrew guy tho.
"Your honour, my client could not have been the serial killer because no victims died during the week when he lost his lucky knife"
This made me have a genuine stomach laugh I haven’t had in a while. Thank you
"The knife was at the blacksmith getting sharpened your honor. Human bones are tough."
i read this comment before watching the video and thought “surely his defense couldn’t have been that stupid…?” but boyyy was i ever wrong
@@plushdragonteddy Well, part of his defence was that stupid. The other part of his defence was "your, honour, as you can see this knife was clearly not the murder weapon since when it is sheathed you cannot see blood on it."
LMFAO!🤣
How Civ6 handles cheaters in multiplayer mode.
Anti cheat: 🙅♂
Unstable network code: 👌
Even if the network code was perfect, gameplay mods that don't match would still cause desyncs. Every player simulates the whole game, so if one player has a mod that makes all their tiles give +1 production or something, the other players' games would disagree, and that would cause a desync.
Best example ever of "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"
i play a lot of paradox games and if there is a mismatch in mods you usually can't even join a game and if you somehow can the games will constantly desync.
@@jainabraina Well that's only a problem if the mod actually affects the game, if the mod is fully clientside and only does something like give you extra information then it should work, but probably wouldn't with Civ anyways.
Civilization isn't meant to be primarily a competitive multiplayer game, I don't understand why people want to treat it like one. Expecting anticheat features on par with games that have few real redeemable qualities outside their multiplayer lobbies is like expecting halloween candy to taste as savory as bacon. I really hope they don't try to make civ 7 to be better for competitive multiplayer because that makes the game less fun to explore with different civilizations and I like to be able to modify my game for single player. If you disagree I would like to invite you to go play call of duty and leave good single player games to those who appreciate them.
Ok what's really convincing is moving the settler before moving the scout. Not even an intermediate player would make this mistake, as everyone has had the unfortunate mistake of moving a settler into fog of war only to be captured by a barbarian immediately.
and remember, he's the best player
I'm a baby novice beginner and even I know that 😭
Yes. One wouldn't put their settler at risk unless they knew that there was no risk there to begin with.
Ive only played single player ive had cities on Diety that could produce a 2 turn settler. I spam them out with Magnus if i run out of areas for Districts or Wonders as soon as possible .
I use them like warriors which replace my scouts i never build in the first place
@@eno6712 I'm new to civ but you can't fight with settlers, right? They're captured and it's over, so how are you using them like warriors?
The hiatus while cheats don't work due to patch conflicts is one of the biggest red flags in almost any game. I remember even as far back as playing Unreal Tournament 2k4 there were these high profile players in my region community who would be disappear when new patches roll out that made aimbots unsafe to use.
The edited screenshots in the appeal completely seal the deal. This removes even the tiniest bit of doubt that he was somehow just lucky in every single game.
Yeah, it really removes any doubt. Tampering with evidence automatically makes him guilty, or else why hide it?
Herson narrates well, just when one set of evidence seemed damning enough the hits just keep on coming and getting worse.
well technically, if he actually was innocent (he wasn’t) he could doctor the evidence cause he thinks that’s his best chance of proving his innocence. Its like trying to convince someone of a conclusion you agree with with a bad argument because that person will like the bad argument better than the good argument
@@rogerli5329Yeah I mean he probably would have just been better off by saying "I didn't do it" then pulling a dream and coming up with a literal defense. Not saying that it SHOULD be this way, but for real most innocent people don't feel like they should have to defend themselves by coming up with evidence, and even in trials just refuting the prosecution's evidence is usually better than trying to put forward a sketchy defense because you run the risk of people not believing you
@@rogerli5329
I see what you mean but, I somewhat disagree.
Putting out a defense that relies on deciet runs the risk of blowing up in your face. In which case, you're either doing it because you are indeed guilty or you don't have anything to lose from lying (Ex. jailtime or the death penalty, any means to try to defend yourself will likely be exhausted). Most innocent people will likely put out was seems to be a truthful reasonable response (at least if presented correctly), before using deceit.
Moving straight to deceit doesn't inspire a sense of credibility from others, and innocent people often rely and maintain this if they can help it. Guilty people understand that you have to manufacture credibility.
Heartwarming: there is a legitimate reason to hate the person you already disliked.
real asf
I remember one of Hersons recently uploaded videos was Andrew and some other player just yapping. Super annoying and unfunny, but I assumed Andrew was just an irritating individual. Even people like myself who aren't that great at civ6 can clearly see how bad Andrew's moves should be.
this comment proves nicely how this whole farsical investigation, some would say witchhunt, was succesful!
I've seen the dude in a few different civ steams always came off really egotistical and unlikeable. Its always crazy to me that people who cheat can inflate themselves to such a degree when they are competing against those who aren't.
@@Rogus27 or he wasnt cheating :)
Not playing civ for a month when cheating method is not working is mad. It means he doesn't even like the game. It's just for internet points.
Taking a hiatus like that implies long time use of the cheating method and complete insecurity without it.
It is also possible that he doesn’t want to damage his rating point advantage as ranking even 2nd in any casual lobby could seriously reduce his lead. This also explains why he doesn’t use the information moderately. It’s because even this cheating can only advance his game start by a small amount. Converting a bad start to a decent start or a decent start to a good start.
or he doesn't enjoy the game *as much* without an advantage. some people just enjoy screwing over others
@@blaubeer8039actually, if he played without cheating for that month it would have covered up his cheating better.
He would have looked like a normal player with ups and downs in their playing history.
Instead, he never took a dip - the behavior that actually got him caught.
I think he did it because he didn't want to lose rank points. which he basically guaranteed would have
Here from Karl. Proud of you for sticking it out and telling the truth, that's what communities need
I love Karl but I had to go to the source like you to support the smaller original RUclipsr as when others cover the topic it kinda steals from the OP although a lot of people wouldn't have seen this video without others covering it
@VotdTrades when it's like this it feels like one hand washing the other. I don't even play Civ but I love diverse video game information and culture.
@@VotdTrades uuuhh... he is bigger youtuber, with over million subs, and because of him you learned about this right? How is he stealing from original? Im hear as well after seeing Karls video.
Here from Karl too. No regrets.
me too. This guy is an absolute legend
I don't play the game, but getting rid of a cheater to make a community of passionate players a better place deserves praises.
Good on you man. Cheers.
I was sold on him cheating just by you guys painting the path of his scouts and warriors going straight towards goodie huts and city states. His edited appeal photos sealed the deal, lol.
How did he not think he'd get caught lmao. Even a semi intelligent cheater could have used the same methods, I'd be surprised if someone else doesn't do the same but actually tries to hide it
@@DingLiren-nw2vj he'd been getting away with it for years at the top of the leaderboard. It makes sense that someone becomes complacent at that point.
@@edgeman1135 very true
@edgeman1135 not to mention his trueskill rating was so high that he had to win every game to maintain it, necessitating even harder and more obvious cheating
Extremely same
Scouting tutorial AND comprehensive documentary on a prolific cheater? Take my comment for the algorithm bro😭
yeah take mine too, i dont even play this game but that was fun to watch!
Same
Shut up and take my upvote !
Herson is an excellent RUclipsr. Guy respects your time!
It’s great documentation for future moderating too!
Same
Damn, i need to play more MP
I can't believe this guy tried to doctor screenshots
Yes potato we DO need more MP videos!!! 🙏🏻
@@6leumas6 Agree
With your influence within the Civ community, a few videos about Civ6 MP could give the MP scene a bit of a boost!
We would love to see you compete in CPL
a full tournament of civ 6 content creators would be a good place to start.
Cheaters never realise that you can't fool a player with thousands of hours of experience in a game. Watching you break down his bizarre plays like this really highlights how blatant he's being from a game-sense perspective. Great stuff!
You can if you're smart, but this guy isn't too smart
I kinda like how you poked fun at the new #1 joking about being investigated for being lucky, gawked at it, and then literally investigated his game. lol.
Hilarious how he takes a month-long "hiatus" when he can't use his cheating tool. That's what truly sealed the deal for me
If that's what sealed the deal, you need to learn some math.
What sealed the deal for me was when he made bad moves that were actually perfect moves by using forbidden knowledge. Everything else after that was gravy.
@@chrimony yae the dude clearly b lines it for the goodies. can't believe no one noticed.
I believe no one actually noticed. He was doing that because you have to actually play the game against him and then use this program to open the map. Unlike a lot of other games that are played competitively, where we can independently verify the results
Bro didn't just cheat, he insulted the intelligence of the entire mod team by using CROPPED SCREENSHOTS to try to prove his innocence 💀
He's not trying to prove it to the mods though, he's "proving" it to the people who give him money and refuse to believe that someone that they support is cheating. Billy Mitchell and other obvious liars do the same thing
Cropped AND EDITED. He managed to prove even more how guilty he was.
As soon as you hear there's a response from the cheater, you know exactly how it's gonna go: "oh yeah, he's gonna deny it."
"Bad crop? Bro we're gonna starve"
33:35
"Dang, I found so many tribal villages there could be an investigation into me"
[A few hours later]
"Yeah, I checked, you're good"
But also now that the civ community knows the mods method of detection they can just easily throw in some random error... in removing one cheater they have just made one hundred others stronger
True tovan extent but :dont make it obvious: isnt a new idea for cheaters if anything it just proves how bad he was at cheating@Gyandhi-mx3tw
@@GyandhiWorkshop
Not really? One "error" does not erase suspicious about how "lucky" someone seems to be getting, over and over and over. Now that people know how to detect this kind of cheating, in Civ 6 MP there is 0 "reliable" ways to cheat. They'd have to purposefully lose games in order to properly throw people off the scent. And people who cheat on leaderboards do it to look better or because they feel they deserve the win, so someone's highly unlikely to think that far ahead.
@PointsofData Who said 'one error', you did, and then made an argument against it. If you read what I commented you can clearly see that I wrote ''*some* random error', *some* doesn't mean one, idiot.
This particular cheater literally did the most optimum openers for years in a row and was number one for years and he only just got caught, I think its clear that CIV6 doesn't have good cheat detection if any at all since the mods couldn't identify the biggest and most obvious of any potential cheaters.
When you say a cheater would have to purposefully loose games... yes now you are beginning to understand, cheaters do it to have an upper hand but they are balancing the art of being undetected, they previously may have chosen to not do 100% perfectly optimal lines and chose to do 80% for example, but now with this video released they may drop it down lower on average and fluctuate around this average. Cheaters are c**** but they are not brainless, they will purposefully loose 1 in x games to remain undetected, why do you find that to be impossible? what's impossible about that
@@GyandhiWorkshop Someone who's trying to stay at the top of the leaderboard while cheating would risk losing that spot any time they intentionally made "mistakes" or threw a game, though. The video mentioned that in this guy's case, even coming in second lost him points. It would be a really tricky balancing act to lose just enough to avoid suspicion, but not enough to drop ranks.
No need for the insults, by the way.
I'm not even interested in Civ 6 and I made it to the end of the video 35:44
Similar, I just competitive gaming on other games, always interesting to see how people attempt to cheat
Same bro I’m a FIGHTING GAME competitor, attending tournaments and everything and this was so interesting to me.
You think posting the timestamp to the end of the video proves that you watched it? Maybe you should get investigated.
Same here, wish I can find more videos like this.
Sent here from Karl Jobst, looking forward to this and well done on catching such a parasite!
Had to see more too. Excellent videos from both !
Man I love bombshell documentaries that are well-communicated in such a manner that a *complete outsider* can process the information. Take my algorithmbucks.
Same! I love Hbomberguy vids but it's refreshing to see a banger video essay that's less than 3 hours long.
New favorite word unlocked; thank you. Take my algorithmbucks
33:09 - "Oh no, the person who used an aimbot to reliably achieve 100% headshot accuracy onto 5 enemies within a fraction of a second while spin jumping out of a vent every single turn in competitive Counterstrike has been banned. Now I'm really worried I'll get banned when I get a headshot, which is basically the same thing."
Literally every competitive gamer ever
I mean things of that essence isn't unheard of. A few months ago there was a player who won a warhammer 40k tournament who got banned for "modeling for advantage". Then when under review it was shown the player was acting in accordance to an earlier ruling that contradicted the new one, the judge basically declared that the player should've known the earlier ruling was wrong, and upheld banning him from the tournament because apparently it is up to the players to know the correct rules of the game, and not the judges. (This also ignores several other issues in the ruling)
There are always some moderators who view the point of their position is to abuse it.
Well, once I was playing cs 1.6 and accidentally made a double headshot with one bullet. One guy was in front of the door and the other happened to be behind it. I felt like the luckiest man alive for a solid 30 seconds until the admin saw this in the kill log and banned me 😂
Lol I can tell you from personal experience people who spinbot and have 100% headshot accuracy do not get banned in counter strike so you wont need to worry about that
@@bewawolf19 ...in what world is defending ignorance of the rules as a way to circumvent the rules a good take on cheating? You're framing taking a tournament loss as ridiculous when you cheat to gain and advantage if you didn't know you were cheating...so why not just claim ignorance every single time you're caught cheating?
Why give high level tournament players leeway to ignore rules changes? They should be pretty damn on top of what is and isn't allowed, for a competitive advantage (in understand what their opponents and themselves are permitted) if nothing else.
1:36am
"Omg yes I want to hear about drama in a niche mode for an already niche game"
60k daily players. Stick to playing fortnite kid
@StevieCEmpireofUnitedGaming dude I play tf out of civ vi lmao what are you on about
@h3069 it's not a niche game. I agree the drama is amusing 😄 I think Andrew is innocent.
@@SC.KINGDOMwanna mate
@@SC.KINGDOM Hi Andrew how you doing?
Thanks to the Naritsa channel for the opportunity to watch this video
I have played 1,000 hrs of civ games but just now found it has an organized competitive scene. I wanna join.
Go for it! :)
I followed that scouting advice in my last PvE game and it revealed my continent so much faster. thanks.
The advice to load it into replay or scout better? 😉
@@ALittleMessi Hahaha :D
@@ALittleMessi lol good one
@@ALittleMessi gottem
@@ALittleMessi Apparently both ❂_❂ (then again i can only imagine what monstrosity it would look like if you maximized scouting range despite knowing where everything already was..)
Ok.. I just saw that settler at 15:00 ..this is crazy! not moving the scout first is SO damning.. none would do that!
and then at 19:05 ..well.. I am without words
Edit: he even edited the screenshots!!.. what a joke.. how many nails does this coffin have????
So blatant!
like u should be banned for that move even if u are not cheating, for throwing or hurting my eyes😂
and he had to think for like a solid 5 seconds before making that move, its enough time to not make that move just to not arouse suspicion🤣
the only time any of those moves could be natural is if it was me playing, because 5 hours in I'm going to be braindead and do inefficient things- the difference is that I will not be getting lucky 100% of the time xD I am just actually bad
bullshit
Andrew simply has a superb gaming chair
and every first turn on every game he takes his time to adjust it to the map he is given
criminally underrated tech, this video is evidence of this overlooked strategy
Real, true, and fax
😂
he got 8 hours of sleep before game night, his diet consists exclusively of chicken broccoli and rice, and he buys a new mousepad every 3 months.
He also has gaming peripherals with RGB lighting.
Here from Karl’s channel to show my support. Even though I’m not a civ 6 player, I am a gamer and cheating has no place in our spaces. Well done.
except like spawning in boats on top of pedestrians in GTA
This guy should be a prosecutor. In 30 minutes, I went from never hearing of the game to thinking Andrew sold his soul.
12:15 "There is clear best move that any strong player would spot immediately"
Well well well. I'd say that I never did consider myself as a strong player but here I am.
Funny I got to that part and thought “wow I’m so bad that if I won a game people would accuse me of cheating!”
@@MJ-in2xt Same. Minmaxing takes the fun out. I've played randomly and made moves like that and got lucky sometimes
But the problem is not that he took risks and got lucky sometimes. It was that he took risks and never got 'unlucky'.
paraphrazing george carlin: "someone out there is the world's worst strong player."
Your warrior is already west of the river, it's your first scout and you're going to produce more. My first scout would always go away from the direction I've already revealed in the "absurd" east. He then gets locked into 5 turns of hill moves to move eastwards(this unflat land is not something revealed before the move, herson's worst arguements). The settler move immediately after that to the northwest is the safe move, not into fog northeast before the scout escort is available.
The actual settle at 14:30 following that after recrossing river and without moving scout first is the damning thing rather than logical.
Andrew "I love cheating and stomping low level lobbies" CIVPLAYER
Maybe we should put him against zuck in the civ 1v1
He really ain't beating the elo pedo allegations
Elo pedo is fucking hilarious btw.
AoE4 has a player like this too.
Except the AoE4 guy imo is FAR worse as he uses his cheating to get civs nerfed by showing how 'op' they are.
Both cheaters have the same energy of 'i don't like the game I just want to prove a point'
@@RocketPropelledMexican ELO PEDO 💀 that was a good one that ill use
7:00 This video was made because someone called herson's scouting trash
lmao
I remember toilet spamming that in herson's chat a week or so before the initial ban. That was fun in handsight
lmao x2
i was searching for this comment xD
Optimal scouting? *squints in playing Kupe*
The almighty algo has led me to the world of competitive Civ 6 drama, and I couldn't be happier.
The way you break down every single thing about the game was actually really awesome. Im not a civ player so that definitely helps me understand everything. Thank you, Great video!
God I love petty hobby drama. Low stakes stuff I can follow like a soap opera is entertaining like nothing else.
i would love to know off the top of your head some more examples worth looking up.
In return, one i adore is the aaron1912 titanic v-break debunk, an episode of which features the greatest passive aggressive description of sinking I've ever heard
@@OutbackCatgirl MsScribe is hilarious. Vintage 2002 era sockpuppetry and fake threats over fanfiction of all things all carried out by middle aged lawyers.
Roblox oof and plagiarism and youtube are also incredible, both by hbomberguy. Probably the best examples of this I can think of.
Some stuff by Dan Olsen aka foldingideas are really funny too. It's not QUITE hobby drama, but it's stuff like extremely thorough roasts of Nostalgia Critic's review of Pink Floyd, or absurdly in depth takedowns of NFTs as a concept, or just making fun of silly techbro trends. Guy's got a super dry sense of humor and makes it all very entertaining.
I used to be really addicted to TCG drama (mainly yugioh and pokemon), so I totally understand the feeling.
@@OutbackCatgirl Oh, and Todd Rogers! How could I forget the human element?
Idk if this constitutes low stakes. He stole hundreds of dollars of reward money.
lmao i love how this video was recommended to me, none of the topics are relevant to me yet I enjoyed it. I have no idea who Andrew is, but "Boooooo!!!! you stink!". Thanks for the educational and entertaining video about a game used to play.
I used to be a part of Civ IV quasi multiplayer SGOTM (Succession Game of the Month) where teams would plan and play a single player game against other teams, playing the same start. Those games were as optimal as they could get but the maps were always cooked by the mapmaker to be more fun and different. Our top player, who definitely had skill, would always have an assumption about the mapmaker's intentions to use a map type feature, e.g. in a great lake map there was a body of water which normally could or could not have an island. He convinced us to prioritize a galley and some units to scout the island of untold riches. Indeed he was right. And when you see end results, it also made sense. However, if that was a dud, we would have crippled our normal game quite a bit and since we were all strong players, we normally would win any standard game so risk for us was actually higher if we stray from more standard path.
At that time, I thought that he was really outside of the box thinker, however, later on he had had many leap of faith assumptions which ALL paid off and me and one more teammate started getting suspiscious. Especially as he was very aggressively pushing the idea against the consensual best move based on the info we had without strong arguments (remember we were all very strong players with many individual successes). I ended up leaving the team and have suspicions about the validty of my gold medals with that team. I will never have a proof.
Honestly, just leaving due to suspicion (which in this case seems warranted) is proof enough that you have integrity for the game and community. An actual cheater would have happily went along and kept getting the benefit. Good for you to stick to your priciples.
And you were probably right. After enough decades of gaming I've developed a rule that if I think they're cheating, I may as well assume they are. Plenty of times it's friends in Counter-Strike, I point out fishy things to mutual friends, *_always_* hear the same "c'mon man, you KNOW him, you KNOW he's good, you KNOW he's not cheating". And then because VAC always takes so long to update itself to new hacks... it's inevitable that like 3 years later the guy will finally get banned for cheating. "Yup, called it."
There's the additional consideration of what I call the Lance Armstrong Effect (and I highly recommend people check out the early Joe Rogan episode with Lance, along with.... there was another guy around the time, I think his name started with a V, and he had ran an Olympics doping / cheating regime, and discussed how that worked and how people got away with cheating... really helps to understand the psychology of it.) Anyway, Lance Armstrong: let's assume he's simply the best cyclist out there, but when he's faced with an opponent who starts to cheat (steroids), in order to stay at the top, he'd have to start cheating as well in order to retain his position. And that goes for everyone around him. When Lance was stripped of his titles for cheating, it had turned out that... I think it was 27 of the 32 people he competed with at the top all tested positive for the steroids, and one can assume the other 5 were probably just using a different sort that weren't covered by the tests.
Ofc, the biggest, more prestigious the game & titles, the more likely you'll get people trying to cheat... maybe Civ6 multiplayer is small enough that there's only one cheater, but I doubt it. One hates to think like that, but there's good odds a lot of the people around the top are cheating. The difference is that while they might have perfect knowledge of the map, they're choosing to not be so blatant about their scout moves... and you likely won't be able to tell.
Or, hopefully, maybe it was just this one guy.
(The mentality of the cheater is always a weird thought... the trolling cheater we can understand, the guy who likes to piss people off; the cheater in high-stakes poker makes all the sense in the world; the cheater in a high-status, popular game, looking for that #1 rank makes _some_ sense; but the cheater who knows he's the only one cheating in a game without high stakes, who's doing it just to win a bit more than the others around him, for no other reason than to just win... I don't think I can understand those people, since it's gotta make those wins feel SO empty.)
@@TransRoofKorean Lance armstrong effect, didn't know about it, but it make sense, pure logic, i totally agree with ya.
but
as a solo PVE cheater i can say : wins don't feel empty, or maybe put it another way, all the rest game is enjoyable and so the "win"
i don't cheat on PVP because 1 i don't like pvp now (but i used to play a lot of pvp games) 2 i respect my opponents and the rules of a Multiplayer game
but i can say if i was cheating on PVP games it won't harm my joy. it's more of a "tolerance" gauge : in a card game cheating by looking the first card of the deck is not the same as giving you a hand full of ace. i will enjoy the game if i cheat moderately (for me) but not if i abuse it.
i think most ranked cheater have a really high gauge, they don't care if they take all the Ace&face of the deck or cripple your hand by giving you only 2&3, they will enjoy it.
----------------------
Each time i see a case of ranked cheater, they insult ppl intelligence, and make really dumb decision, like why are you cheating ALL THE DAMN TIME, you will be easier to spot, just do it moderatly, you will learn experience and get better at the game by turning off your cheat and compare when you are cheating.
why you use the cheat at 100% it make the thing incredibly obivious, for a aimbot at 20% you did have already a huge advantage and it make way less remarkable.
so may questions...
" " gold medals " "
@@straycat5045 An interesting part of that "Lance Armstrong Effect" is the effect that it has on competitive gaming in which cheating is relatively easy (like installing a hack... perhaps on the firmware of a mouse that you plug in to a venue's computers).
The rumor gets out that this or that guy, this or that guy is cheating, but you can't simply accuse publicly since you can't prove it; as a result it's "where do I get these hacks?" / "I can show you where: this guy here will sell you a hack customized for you so that in case anyone else gets caught they won't then detect yours, his starting fee is $3000 depending on what you want."
Most of your top teams end up cheating (ie., Counter-Strike), or at least having SOMEONE there who is;
but then those running the tournaments, those who are organizing advertisers and events so they can pay out prizes and get people to compete...
When they're also part of that company that runs the anti-cheat (VAC), they now have an incredibly powerful disincentive that keeps them from nailing the cheats their pros are using. After all, while if anything it shows how enviable being good at your game is if random nobodies are cheating, if it turns out those who are considered pros are cheating...
those you've given prizes to...
[RIP Tour de France & Lance Armstrong's legacy]...
nothing looks worse than the determination that many of your top players are cheating. And so, they avoid it at all costs.
But I'm told I'm crazy. Civ6 is just a niche game, so that's why Andrew gets to the top by cheating. Tour de France... eh, they're bicyclists, who cares?
In CS, those players are CLEARLY good. They're certainly not cheating!!! (lol.)
I don't know much about Civ 6, but I loved this video. Your writing was clear and easy to follow, without being condescending. Very well done!
*"Cheaters. If they weren't so greedy they'd be more difficult to catch. But in the end...they're all greedy"* : Casino
Really similar to catching cheaters in chess. You have the most human move and then you have the top engine move.
But in this case, it’s even worse. Not even a hypothetical Civ 6 engine could make the moves that Andrew did because Andrew was moving based on information that an engine wouldn’t have.
Andrew was playing civ like he was playing chess. With perfect information. While all other players and even the hypothetical perfect civ engine would be playing with imperfect information. Literally making better moves than any hypothetical perfect Civ engine moves could ever be.
But it is even clearer than that. In chess you could always have some doubt that somehow the player was smart enough to find the engine move (at least with players who do not cheat >500 Elo points above their true level). You need to find a clear pattern. But here, the pattern of movement makes no sense with the information he should have had. "I know best how scouting works" doesn't apply here, since no level of skill (beyond computing the seed number to a map in your brain and then memorizing it perfectly, which is ridiculous) could achieve what he did.
@@nilsp9426 Playing a move or game like over 500 elo above is not that impossible to happen. There are players that are good with puzzles but suck in game. Like me for example. For reference i have 1200 elo rapid and 2400 elo in puzzles lol
@@tajemniczywasacz tldr: you are not great at puzzles and bad at games, the rating system is not at all comparable for the two.
It's uncommon that when I'm jumping into an essay about something that I know nothing about, I get answers to the questions you'd actually ask. So thanks.
Writing that long of an appeal document knowing damn well you’ve been cheating for a hot minute is crazy, he really has no shame
Cheaters always do it. So much of their identity is wrapped up in cheating that they can't conceive of life without it.
Cheaters tend to be notorious liars. they're dangerous individuals with which you want nothing to do with in life. If they already cheat and lie to you in a game, why shouldn't they do it in reality?
He actually has shame, but hidden behind this lie. He's trying to save his reputation, the only thing he has.
@@jyutzlerThere's been a few in other games who started their response with "welp, you got me." or similar. good example: Jadiwi in pokemon speedrunning
@@urknall2010 because games aren't real life?
lowkey struggled with scouting and stuff being new to civ and yet here i find myself watching essentually a tutorial disguised as a cheater exposed
Respect +
Here from Karl, when he mentioned this video I had to pause his and come watch yours. It's a work of art. Great stuff!
You can either do the 2 tile move across flat plains or the 1 tile vertical move onto the hill. Here in Sid Meier’s Civilization, no one chooses to move onto the hill. It’s better to be safe and do the two tile move to reveal more of the map rather than risk your entire turn for just half a goodie hut more.
I would choose to move onto the hill, so it's not nobody!
I'm sure the fact I haven't touched Civ in a decade and have always been trash at strategy games might have something to do with that, though.
In Sid Meier’s Civilization, I learned that you can accomplish anything with a 360 Fog Of War Skip. You can even bribe the Civilization Pros with your screenshots.
I'm not defending Andrew, but I have a question. I thought moving on a hill tile would be okay cause Hills let the unit see further. Is it actually a bad move?
Edited: btw I've only played a few singleplayer games
Man this is years of hatred being justly unleashed
I remember first watching UnderCiv playing CPL way back, and Andrew was always such a meme in the chat or as a joke in the games due to his weird play style. Just absolutely griefing, its gonna be weird watching now after this revelation, if he takes the shame and leaves the game for good.
Either way, good work by the CPL admins and to Herson for explaining in such detail and with evidence for us non-CPL players, who just send their scout in what looks like the best direction in the moment
Watch UnderCiv a lot and always wonder who Andrew was with that timeout in chat. Used it once for the memes. lol
reminds me of how dream was caught. him refusing to name the "statistician" he "hired" was the admission of guilt for me.
if you have haters, they will always find a way to get to you
@@512TheWolf512if that's the admission of guilt, you suck at math for both this and that case.
I can say this about scouting preferences: I do like to scout my mountain ranges and coasts first; they don't provide scouting benefits, but a mountain range is a good natural barrier to anchor against. And I can say for certain that this does decrease the performance of scouting, but since I don't play competitively, I don't really care about that.
When Karl mentioned that Herson is the moderator that caught the stinky cheater, I immediately came right over here to get the raw details.
cheating on civ 6 is crazy lmao
Sadly almost all games attract a cheater at some point, especially if there are rankings involved. Some of them would even have been very succesful without cheating. One good comparison is Riolu cheating in several Trackmania titles. He was only able to cheat without streaming. He regularly broke records while streaming. But somehow it seems like he thought he deserved the ones he didn't get. He then frequently got them offline using a software that slowed down the game, granting him superhuman precision. Maybe Andrew's case is similar: maybe he was frustrated with bad luck at the beginning of the game, thinking he deserved better. He does seem like a decent player, since no one suspected him cheating before and he was able to convert his early advantages so often.
@@nilsp9426 It doesn't make any sense to me. I've cheated in online games before, only really to see what stuff like wallhacks were like, never played any sort of ranked while cheating. Maybe it's because I played sports through high school, but there is no joy in winning if it's not due to me being better than the other person. In baseball, there was nothing better than striking a batter out, knowing you beat him both physically and mentally. It's kinda the same thing with competitive games, although Rocket League is the only game where I made it to the top 5%. Even when my family has game nights, I sometimes catch some of my family members cheating and I just don't understand the fun in winning if you didn't accomplish it with the same constraints everyone else had. Does it give people a sense of satisfaction to beat someone else when you have a handicap? Or is it about being recognized? Though I don't think I'd find joy in being recognized for something I didn't do.
as herson said, if there is prestige to be won there will be cheaters.
Ikr imagine cheating in the easiest Civ game.
People will cheat at literally anything even if there is no money and no clout to be gained in it. There are 0 games that dont have someone (trying to) cheat. Like when you were a little kid playing card games or board games with your brothers and you cheated when they werent looking. Some people just never grow out of that phase.
For future purposes, I would recommend, that all CPL match replay files need to be saved and provided after the match has ended. This actually was the case for counterstrike back in the day as well (1.3 - 1.5 era) to investigate shenanigans and find cheaters. That there is no such system, actually baffles me a bit, but on the other hand, MP in Civ is a bit niche, so it might be understandable.
It's very niche and run by volunteers, resources are limited
@@n.m.6027 Thank you! I'm not part of that community but would have given that obvious answer.
A rule is sometimes written in blood. In videogames, it is shaped by cheaters.
@@n.m.6027 A small file server is something one dude can afford, literally. Or just run an FTP server on someone's machine. Or just upload the saves to a free file hosting service so people can download it and keep on their machine, a communal database between people. So many options that are either free or cost like 5$/month.
That's an incredible amount of work to do for a volunteer-run unofficial tournament org to take in order to preserve community trust. Massive respect. I have no plans to play Civ IV at all but I guess now I know how to optimally scout! lol
Perhaps you might play Civ VI?
Its a matter of principle more than anything else really.
I think you mean Civ VI.
1:03 12th place, holy
Great video dude! Sent here from Karl
Oh man, someone call an ambulance. What a slam dunk.
I watched the entire thing. Really appreciate the thorough analysis and all the work you and the CPL team do. Thank you. Also great vid.
Herson for public prosecutor 🇺🇸
This makes the Herson vs the world video even funnier
That’s exactly what I thought of, it was so recent too
Hey dude awesome content just wanna let you know russian speedrun thief Naritsa just stole your video, its called "Крупнейший читерский скандал в Civilization 6 | Расследование".
Karl Jobst made video about him a couple days ago.
Лол серьёзно? Таааак, спасибо за контент, сейчас буду смотреть
just came from Naritsa and left my like :)
Me too. We must support original author
If they had put even a little effort into obfuscating their actions, this would have been impossible to find.
Scout while it loads, adjusting later, to reduce delay.
Path to high terrain for vision, and flat terrain for distance, before committing, even if it eats up a few turns.
Always moving scouts first into an area before settlers.
Building extra scouts just to clear fog.
Sure, it might cost a few games in the long run, but still would have provided enough advantage to keep the top spot.
Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
If the competitive scene wanted to curb this activity, ranked local save games could be limited to the movement range of units each turn, with a server hosting the complete map.
This would prevent use of replay or map vision tools, as well as providing an archive of every game, resolving two issues with one auditable solution.
That's a good saying, 'Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered'. The sauce was too much for the man.
Apparently he felt like he needed to get every little edge he could just to keep up, thats why it was so blatant, i think.
@@Yrojrund the craziest thing is that this whole thing is not even THAT official and made by volunteers, yet he cheated on a monumental level, going straight for the prize every time - it was not that serious, yet this guy felt the need to cheat and win EVERY single time in a row, which ultimately led to his downfall. Theres always ups and downs, but this guy went straight up without a thought in mind. Crazy
See, that's the sad nature of the problem... the odds that Andrew is alone in cheating is pretty much nil, but the "smarter" cheaters won't be caught, because they'll be less blatant. On the bright side, it means they're giving themselves less of an advantage than this guy was.
I would estimate that the % of players in any game *_willing_* to cheat is certainly over 10%, probably closer to 20%. Whether or not they do it all the time, how accessible & viable the cheating methods are, the likelihood of being caught, and, well... whether or not they feel any real long-term shame in the cheating, that might make for fewer cheaters, or at least much fewer who cheat all the time.
But you're only ever glimpsing the tip of the iceberg of cheating, imo. Thankfully, they're gonna be the ones who are most egregious, the worst of the worst.
@@TransRoofKorean It also depends on how much the developers care to work on anti cheat. In counter strike, at this point, 80% of the players have cheats at least on toggle and they turn it on when they think someone on the other team is cheating or when they start losing. And Valve hasnt done any work on the anti cheat since 2015.
This happened similarly a while back with a friend of mine's teammate. I don't wanna name any names, but he was toxic, insufferable to listen to(according to my friend), and would constantly ask his teammates to do certain scouting moves that suspiciously ended up always working.
Starts with A?
@@CoolCong-nz4rt Starts with A?
@@CoolCong-nz4rt and ends with drew?
I thought Herson's comments about Andrew were made in a joking manner between friendly rivals, but now I see Herson wasn't joking at all.
WOW! I love how thorough the team was. Great work.
I have been playing civ forever and this video is teaching me that I really do not take scouting as seriously as I should.
So basically it's summed up as xraying in Minecraft for diamonds
More like pre-running a seed, then using a macro to rapidly input that seed into the Minecraft worldgen section for the seedless world record.
I think that was Minecravengr? It definitely wasn't Dream, but it was one of the top Minecraft speedrunners.
@@Catman_CM You're thinking of Flowbee. Who maybe wasn't quite a top-top Minecraft speedrunner at the time, but was very much on the rise.
Dream was the one with the modified drops RNG, and Minecravenger did a bunch of stuff, including but not limited to modifying dragon behavior, creating impossible chest loot and splicing.
@@BlueCyann FlowBee sounds familiar, thanks for the info!
its more like joining a server finding out the map seed and running it on Minecraft Seed on Chunkbase to find all the different structures and map features
Me scouting: I go this way
Herson: Any sensible player would go that (other) way
Me: Yes yes! What was I thinking. Ofc I would go that way
Wake up Babe, The video about Andrew is finally out. Shame he didn't release a diss track instead of a document for appealing
00:43 no quitting? but what if i have an unexpected IRL situation? wouldn't quitting be the same as conceding the match?
Yeah but it's no fun to constantly win because your opponent "concedes" (quits), which happens fairly often in public games. Obviously if you have a legitimate one-off emergency and concede the match it's one thing, but the rule exists to keep people from abusing it all the time.
Possibly the single most damning thing that a cheater can do is to produce doctored screenshots as evidence to prove their innocence, when the investigators have access to the un-edited images.
It's actually insane that he did that.
Bro...imagine seeing the entire map in CiV 6. The funniest part of the entire 6+ hours game is literally first 50 turns. Finding out where to settle a few cities and wobders and huts and barbs and other civs. Like if I saw entire map I would not have fun in the slightest....
I guess for him the fun was not in playing the game, but the ego boost he got for being on top.
He probably find the fun on beating other player and not from actually playing the game
Eh, I can still see the appeal. At that point it's just more of a game of chess or similar games with perfect information I guess.
I find this whole situation really quite funny. It would be one thing if he was an upstanding pillar of the community, but from what I've seen it isn't like he was particularly well liked. Good riddance.
tbh if he was a good/nice person he wouldnt cheat hahah
@@athaya2992 look up riolu in trackmania, probably the most beloved trackmania streamer at the time, and he turned out to having been cheating for almost his whole career
@@athaya2992That might be true but in several cases, high-profile players that turn out to be cheaters are actually really loved and respected within the community. This is what happened with Riolu in the Trackmania community, and really in hindsight it's even more egregious that he could remain such a nice and friendly and respected person on the surface while cheating behind the scenes for a decade, truly some sociopath shit
@@im_sorry_i_forgot_my_username Lance Armstrong comes to mind. People still liked him even after the entire thing came out.
@TheSuperappelflap yeah, Lance also had a lot of ppl hate him, too. Even some of his own teammates were not always fond of him. I really still consider him the 7 time your winner. Most of the rivals at the time were also doping, he took it to another level and he also had an insane method of training and prep and built a team that only worked for him winning the tour. Plus let's be honest, it still takes a ton of skill and luck to do that 7 times even with some extra help.
Bruh, I remember you jokingly referring to Andrew as a cheater a few months ago in your videos! was that before or after the investigation started?
In all fairness it didn't feel very... Joking? It felt more calling him out for playing in a bizarre manner and lo and behold
many people have been calling andrew a cheater for a long time
@@beraor4296Quick question, what is the video?
Lol guys ... Since I am getting harassed now every second day under my videos: YES my name is Andrew, YES I play Civ6, NO I am not this guy and I don't play Multi.
ps: your video is amazing! I learned how to scout better lol :D
Oof... You should change your name to "NotThatAndrew" 😛
sent here from Jobst - i have never played and will never play Civ, but I love these types of deep dive videos.
Congratulations on getting the video back up!
why did it go down?
@@dennismonk9559 'someone' copyright struck it. i wonder who could possibly benefit from that
It is so unfathomably cringe to edit screenshots in your ban appeal and subsequently proving youre guilty just by yourself.
God this is awkward.
Random fun fact of the day: that feeling of second-hand embarrassment, where you feel embarrassed *for* someone else (not embarrassed *by* someone else) is called "fremdschamen." The lesser-known cousin of schadenfreude.
@@Catman_CM As a german I am aware of that ^^
@@Catman_CM Or vicarious embarrassment.
@@iamerror1699 aka "fremdschamen"
It is because this appeal was actually for other people to read, not for mods.
As someone new to Civ 6 thank you for the scouting tutorial and the interesting deep dive into a competetive online community I did not know existed.
Honestly the amount of depth this investigation goes into to bust a cheater of a niche league in a niche game is entertaining in and of itself. This was incredible
Watched Karl Jobst's video. This is awesome keep up the great work.
Multiple consecutive games with no unlucky moves, definitely a cheater. The odds of getting that lucky, you should have bought a lottery ticket instead of playing a video game, trillions to one if not quadrillions to one.
19:23 these Scientific City State maps are absolutely crazy. Even speaking as a "bad" Civ player by the standards of this channel, who doesn't do competitive multiplayer: this is so blatantly map-hacked
even as someone who's never played Civ before, it looks hacked af lol
I've never played either but this looks exactly like x-ray in minecraft
You're right! It does
this is a compelling, clearly articulated, and thoughtful analysis. I really appreciate the work that went into this!
I wouldn't even called compelling. Damning and/or career-ending come to mind.
What an amazing example of what an investigation is. In depth analysis, good sample size and even reviewing the defense the cheater provided. Well done!
I've never played Civilization, but Karl told me to watch this video, so here I am.
I need to take the plunge and actually join a novice game instead of being intimidated im going to die
I was playin before novice games was so popular like nowadays. On 10 games 9 times I was on last position, my record was to die on Korea from scytia in 38 turns. It’s good to go on novice to train mid game and late uncontested (usually), but get experience on normal ffa, you will learn how be aware of what ur opponents do, instead of focus only on your own development. Good luck
its really not as bad as you think! I recently started playing a few months ago, you got this! Just make sure you understand all the rules and have the right mods:)
Yo true I’ve never played a cpl game before wanna play one XD
@fosterwalrus8413 do you want to i have 2 others who were interested in a super novice game with just 4 of us dm me same name in the server
well, now that Andrew ("the novice stomper") is gone, you dont have to fear :)
Andrew was the biggest villain on the civ 6 community I has ever know.
You haven't met Esdeath.
That'll be John Curtin
@@chessguy99 what's the tea with esdeath? did he cheat or was it just toxicity
I dont play Civ6 in multiplayer, but it seems like a database of savefiles would be a really good addition to you guys' server, im sure it could be somehow automated and would be great if new cheaters were to pop up to have solid information on games
Hi there, I'm here to support the Stresand Effect :)
I have to say this was a very impressive conduct of research. You cross-checked data for bias, reviewed counter-examples, and gave Andrew the benefit of the doubt. The data does not lie. Great job at maintaining a fair and competitive multiplayer community. 👍
i have an extension that adds scott the woz to every thumbnail and other image on youtube and he covered up the thumbnail in such a way that it just said HE COULD SEE which is funny i think
13:05 That move is so obvious with hindsight. 10/10 times you would move towards the horses here as they only cost 1 movement. Instead he moves down towards the mountains where his next tile is guaranteed to cost 2 movement, and sure enough that was necessary for him to find the tribal village just out of sight of the horses
I have been praying on Andrews downfall tbh
I don't play competitively but I found this fascinating and also picked up some new pointers for scouting, overall a good watch
I hope the rest of your community stays strong, and this video and controversy sparks new people to get into the scene and grow your ranks!
The blue cs minimaps are crazy. also, ain't no way the Andrew disdain was warranted, you sensed it.
nah, I don't think so. I think he was a hater first for unrelated reasons, then investigator second.
@@512TheWolf512naw Andrew is a pretty weak player in the late game. Everyone who fought a war against him could tell his tactics just weren’t there. Even if he was a God at the development side you don’t respect someone you think you can outplay in combat. And turns out he’s not that great at development either.
@@davidanderegg1232 idk and idc about that, tbh
@@davidanderegg1232 The fact he felt like he needed to get ahead so hard that he blindly moves his settler to save one turn of movement on his scout says enough, I think, about how he perceived his own chances.
You truly are a blessing to the civ community. Thanks for taking up your time to explain us everything in such great detail.
I was rank 1 in CPL for 3 years, and it was never prestigious. It is purely how much time you can spend playing games farming people. Also I always thought Andrew was human filth, and I am glad it has been justified even after 2 years of me no longer playing.
2b?
@@albertsign8575 ie Esdeath. Hey Alsign
Is he a Kamala voter or a Redditor?
You're just mad Andrew surpassed you. He has intricate knowledge of map generation techniques that allow him to be light years ahead of the competition.
@@martymcfly88mph35lol, being a cheater is definitely a trumper thing.
30:11 that “strategy guide” / appeal document is hilarious. not only does it seem like it was created as a preemptive response / inoculation for cheating allegations, but it’s all written in such a smug and condescending way. it reads almost like it was written by AI, or conversely the flesh version of that: someone with marginally above-dumbguy intelligence, who overuses a bunch of STEM terminology & lingo because they think that makes them a genius (and want to comport themselves as such) haha.
I have never even played, heck, I've never seen gameplay of Civ 6, but here I Am at 2:44 in the morning watching this whole thing.
Thank you (and others) for the many hours you put into investigating this and for explaining this to the community!