When Did the Torah Become Authoritative?
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- Опубликовано: 3 янв 2025
- The Torah (the five Books traditionally attributed to Moses) forms the heart of the Hebrew Bible, and its interpretation was central to Second Temple Judaism in the time of Jesus and to Rabbinic Judaism today. Why then does so much of the rest of the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Old Testament, ignore it? The earliest Israelite prophets do not even show awareness of the stories in Genesis, but even later prophets rarely quote the Torah. Much of the Wisdom tradition beginning with Proverbs completely ignores the Torah and it is only with relatively late sages like Sirach (in the Apocrypha) that focus on it. We often consider when the earliest sections of the Torah were composed and when it took shape in a form relatively similar to the text we have today, but in this lecture, John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will examine when the Torah became important and authoritative in Second Temple Judaism.
Join the livestream to participate in the discussion and to ask questions to our lecturer during the Q&A.
Other topics covered in this lecture include:
Ezra
Sirach (Yeshua ben Eleazar ben Sira)
The Documentary Hypothesis
Josephus
Dead Sea Scrolls
Philo of Alexandria
Hasmoneans (Maccabees)
Hellenism
Elephantine Temple
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Another fantastic Hamercopia of knowledge tonight! We are so spoiled. Thank you to John, Leandro, and everyone else involved in bringing us these awesome lectures.
Hamercopia 😂 Love it! So true. We are spoiled!
Every time.
I love these lectures. John Hamer Is the perfect example of how religious history should be studied. I would recommend these lectures to anyone, Christian, Muslim, secular, or otherwise.
Awesome lecture! I love listening to Centre Place before bed, it helps me relax while also learning about religion and history which are two things I find fascinating!
Me too
This is my routine as well!
Me too. I am not as strange as I thought.
Same here. Often it takes me three nights to listen to the whole thing.
I know I’ll be awake and alert for at at least 1 or 1/2 hour. The next day I start there even if I vaguely recall the lecture,
The third night I finish the lecture and start a new one (if there is one).
I listen to a lot of lectures as well as lot of audiobooks, but Centre Place is in my top 3.
Part of me wants everybody to know, part of me is afraid that popularity may ruin the lectures.
Nevertheless, whenever I can I make sure to tell people to check their lectures out.
I give the website link or the YT lecture link.
I’d love to see them really succeed.
Love this channel- as a conflicted Christian, your lectures keep me sane. Great work everyone...
I am an atheist but I really enjoy these lectures. I have been binge watching them for a few months. They are very informative and you are a great presenter; unlike tenured professors and other professional lecturers, you inject your own personality and you seem like a pretty cool guy. I am interested in the origins of religion and am fascinated by how Judaism and Christianity came about. I wonder if there are other atheists watching these who feel similar.
Exactly the same for me on every point you make. We're so lucky. Greetings from New Zealand.
Plus his slides are way better than most lecture slides. 😅
I started listening to your lectures with the Gnostic series. "Watery light" is one of my favorite things now haha. Your scientific and historical knowledge and no nonsense explanations are great. I'm not at all interested in all of theany many two minute religious videos on this channel. So I'm glad you're still giving us lectures and knowledge.
Thank you.
Lots of creators of long-form content have been forced towards making mobile oriented shorts by YT, in order to stay relevant to the recommendation algorithm.
@@MrDarrylR
Religion for Breakfast is a great channel, but the videos do tend to be on the short side.
Esoterica is very good.
Haven't had the chance to watch this one or "the disciples according to Q" one but this is gonna be great. I can't believe this channel and Kedem aren't more popular considering the millions who grew up going to sunday school.
My second listen. I always have to listen twice - sometimes more to get it all.
Another great lecture though I think the question you have answered may not be when the Torah became authoritative but, rather, when the Judean priesthood gained full hegemony over the country. One can envision an older period where the Torah was already authoritative, at least to the devout and zealous, but where a separation of cultural powers still existed within Judea.
Thank you John. Blessings to all !
Superb lecture. Thank u
Thank you for this lecture. You brought together a plethora of new evidence supporting a far later date for the writing and practice of the Torah than traditionally taught. I haven't seen anyone representing the traditional view who has been able to refute this theory.
Ah I have just started the lecture, but I wonder if it will support the hypothesis de. Jorjani stated that monotheistic Judaism is part of a kind of social engineering that Cyrus and the Persians implemented when they ended the Babylonian exile and started the 2nd temple period. Can't recall what he had the Jews administer.
On the question of “was the Torah a kind of constitution?” I recommend “Why the Bible Began” by Prof. Jacob L. Wright
Thanks!
I have followed Dr. Hamer and his lectures for less than a year, and I feel as if I had wasted so much time prior to that following lesser talents. His understanding of Biblical history is nearly encyclopedic. Yet, he offers the information in a way that is easy to follow and understand no matter your level of proficiency on the topic. His graphics are equally excellent, and I would only conclude by saying that if you are curious about Biblical history, or already have some knowledge and want to expand on it, or even if you are already expert then I feel certain that you will thoroughly enjoy his presentations. I only wish that I had found his website earlier!
One widespread Hellenistic practice which caused Jews a great deal of trouble was gymnastics, since it was generally frowned on for anyone circumcised to participate.
One response was a kind of minimal circumcision which would probably escape notice.
what a wonderful educational resource. Thank you so much
What was the sources you relied upon while preparing for this video?
Can I buy these classes
I think it was right after the purin/Ester event... I think... gonna watch now.
Another great lecture! Thank you.
Great lecture as usual 💯... Also, I just wanna mention that I really like how you got right into the lecture this time instead of going over a buncha other things first (like you've done in the past) ... So yeah, I like the way you did it this time better ...
Of course, I like all your lectures!!! ... It's just that I prefer THIS format more ... That's all I'm sayin' ...
and thanks for providing great content 💯🙏...
Thank you for sharing!
Well done presentation
Regarding the practices of Daniel- wine may be allowed, but we're not allowed to drink wine from a gentile, because it might have been offered to an idol. Meat from some animals is allowed, but there is a very specific method of slaughter that must be observed. These are part of the oral tradition which is interpreting the Torah. So the author of Daniel could have seen the Torah as authoritative.
Thanks for this lesson! What about all the the Jews who are worshiping at Leontopolis Temple, Eqypt, during 163BC-76AD? No one ever talks bout this temple, it's practices, priests (H.Priest Boethus), sacrifices. Where can I learn more about this Temple and it's functions? Thanks again!
It would be an interesting topic for a lecture.
I know very little about it but presumably it was founded because Egyptian Jews found it difficult to go to Jerusalem to make sacrifices after the Seleucids conquered Coelo - Syria.
Definitely a bit problematic if you were a Torah rigorist.
We know that The Jews of Elephantine were in contact with the Jerusalem priesthood but we don't know whether those Zadokites thought the Elephantine temple was kosher.
@@alanpennie8013 Thanks! I'm reading in Joseph Bk 13, Chpt 3:62-72. The son Onias of Onias the H.Priest fled to king Ptolemy Philometer at Alexandria because of the Macedonians and their oppressor kings at Judea. He went to Leontopolis and petitioned Ptolemy to build there a temple to Almighty GOD after the pattern of that in Jerusalem, of the same dimensions, for the prophet Isaiah 19:19 foretold relating to this place. It was in the Nomus of Heliopolis which is named from the country of Bubastis. So Onias built a temple, and an alter to GOD, like to that in Jerusalem but smaller and poorer. Is this where Joseph & Mary went with infant Jesus when they fled to Egypt? This temple also had Zadokite priests and Levites. Curious if the Qumran priests initially came from this temple versus the Jerusalem temple? Lost in the rabbit hole again-maybe? Haha.
Short answer: In the Greek period.
Long answer: It was in the Greek period.
😅😅😅😅😅 just kidding, gonna love watch that
Still is!
IIRC Nehemiah was a eunuch. Was Ezra trying to kick out Nehemiah?
An interesting point.
Maybe Nehemiah was setting a good example to show that even a great man like him should respect The Torah at the cost of personal inconvenience.
Incidentally it's not certain that he was a eunuch but it does seem quite likely.
From the Susa pov there would be certain advantages in a eunuch governor.
Pls... Requested topic... We know that Joseph Smith never received any golden plates. When did _THEY_ become authoritative.
Does the Church still retain the golden plates?
@@jtzoltanthey’ve never existed to begin with… still don’t.
@@DRJoe100 so he only claimed to his neighbors that he was reading the golden plates with the scrying object?
Daniel asked for "pulse" not vegetables, not salad...
Seeds of legumes.
Seeds are what God says is good.
Especially fruit seeds.
Get your act together
All the assertions of this lecture would point to the validity of the Documentary Hypothesis and NOT to the notion that the ENTIRETY of The Torah was largely unknown to Judeans. There is every reason to believe that J-Source and E-Source were dutifully written down by sofers for thousands of years = I can schlepp through rough desert terrain with water, food and the SPECIFIC amount of parchment/papyri required by either J-Source or E-Source (like a Habiru grunt, Semper Fi!) BUT I can't lug around an entire Torah scroll on my back (unless I ditch everything else).
There was essentially no literacy in Judah prior to the Babylonian Exile. The J & E source are pure speculation.
It would have been a difficult business putting it all together.
Maybe that's how the priests spent their time in Babylon..
I would like so much if was a church like yours in Brazil, unfortunately we have only the worst of babylon fake churches full of lies and Christian Nacionalists South American Narco Version 😢
There *are* branches of Community of Christ in Brazil (this is the denomination Centre Place is affiliated with) however each congregation is fairly autonomous so they may not be exactly what you're looking for. It might be worth looking into though. I know Donnie Lee frequents the Centre Place channel and is a Community of Christ member in Brazil.
The Samaritans have a presence in Brazil. The Samaritans the only Israelites left. They’ve been exiled in Brazil by the Israeli occupation of West Bank, only around 300 Israelites live in the Levant now. They still observe the Torah and the Law. It’s worth looking into them.
@@MsFitz134 I will search, can u please get me a link?
@StoneInMySandal ow yeah, I lived in São Paulo close to the Samaritan's hospital, they have a huge community there in deed
Authoritative for who?
Don't be glib. You're not cute
Jesus is the real and eternal Torah!!!
😂😂 worshipping a man and 3 persons😂😂
YAHshua , The Walking talking Torah
Jesus is residing in Hell, my friends. Worship the only True God Allah.
@PS-ej2xn do you know we speak of the Same YAH/. YAH of Abraham. It's religions of Man that have split us up. Man it Thy Truly evil ones.
@@6969smurfy First, YAH is not one of Allah's names. Second, speaking of the same God, even if it were true, is useless without following His last and final words to mankind as given in the Holy Quran.
The Sinai revelation took place in the Hebrew year 2448 (1312 B.C.E.).
C
Yeah, bible is constitution for nation of Israel.
Documents say so
Two witnesses for birth, for marriage, death... documents... family...nation...
Canaanite woman was probably a single mom...lol
Mostly peaceful human sacrifice, infanticide, and cannibals.
Canaanites...lol
When did the Torah become authoritative? To whom?
It's never been "authoritative" to me.
Um...there are billions of other people on the planet. It's hard to imagine that you've never heard of the Jews.
Same old story. Never trust anyone who says they are fighting for YOUR freedom.
Production notes* maybe don't read out the satanist questions
boring typical materialistic point of view
The Torah is actually used as a symbol of materialism in the study of philosophy.
In philosophy, the Judaic Torah marks the end of the religion of Abraham and Moses and creates a new caste of legalistic religious practices for the Judahite people all based around transactional materialism.
So it only follows that any academic discussion of the Judaic Torah is heavy on materialism.
@@StoneInMySandal what happened to other Canaanite tribes that also worship Yahweh, it was not only Abraham or Moses. There is evidence they more like discovered the religion rather than invented it. It hard to call materialistic when you, when your God is unseen and super natural explanation for the prime cause of the universe.
@@midnightwatchman1 The descendants of the Canaanites are still there. They never left. The land was never depopulated. The tribal worship of Yahweh by the others was ended during the Second Temple period. All the Yahweh shrines in Judah were systematically destroyed by the Jews. The only one left is the one at Arad, where you can still visit. Part of the Second Temple period was creating the new origin story for Judaism and its relationship with Yahweh. During the pre-exilic period, the Judahites had a vassal relationship with Yahweh. They chose Yahweh because of perceived benefit. After the exile, the creation of the Torah, and the move towards true monotheism, the origin story changed to be that Yahweh had chosen the Jews. The shrines were destroyed, but not the people. Those people would continue with their traditional beliefs, some converting to various Roman religions, until the advent of Islam, when they converted.
The Israelites definitely didn’t invent Yahweh or his religion. It was imported from the outside. Some scholars point to Abraham (Abraham being the personification of syncretism) and Sumer as the origin, but it may have been from further north, carried south by the Semitic speakers we call the Akkadians as they migrated to the region.
I wish he would stop saying sizm instead of skizm. I know he's addressed it and has his reasoning but it's still annoying.
Sizm
@@promark5317 ... Lol 😂
@plutoloco2378 ... Lol ... I get what you're sayin' tho 💯 ...
I've known several professors who each use unique pronunciations for one or more words. I think that these "trademark eccentricities" are a thing. They are always a favorite conversation topic among students. 😊
It's better than shizm, which always makes me laugh.