In response to 23:16 (ish), it would make TOTAL sense if the main character's repression drove her to the Goblin Market because it's WHAT DROVE THE SISTER IN THE ORIGINAL STORY. This book (which I have NOT read) is based on a poem called "Goblin Market" by Christina Rossetti (which I HAVE read), which was written in the Victorian period. The poem is about two sisters, one of whom is tempted into the Goblin Market where she feasts on all this very delicious (and erotically described) fruit. Yes, yes, it's all a metaphor for sexual temptation because duh it's the Victorian period and people are freaks but also repressed. This book strips away that element of female sexual repression and is undoubtedly part of the reason why the character choices feel so unmotivated. Also re: the weird/vaguely sexual relationship between the cousins(?), That's another carryover from the poem, where the sisters have an oddly intense relationship. Some argue that the women are portrayed as sisters as a sort of stand-in for them being lesbians; as in, the only way a relationship so strong and emotionally involved could be presented was between two sisters). Sorry if this is explained later in the video; I'm only halfway through
Personally, if the author was going for the fey inspiration with the goblin market and the whole "they're fascinated with and try to draw humans in" type of aspect, they could have really toyed with the fact that in a lot of folklore around them, time runs different in their realms which is why they live so long *and* the fact that fey are often associated with nature (or remote places where humans are not typically found) Make it so the reason that goblins/fey/what have you in this book view humans as a people that burn bright but not very long which is fascinating to them the same way immortality tends to be for people (like they could still eat people and all that stuff but the goblins do that because they're trying to make like a reverse philosopher's stone or something like that) Edit: and tie in the witches as trying to stem this tide of humans being drawn to the goblin markets - specifically witches who know they're witches can no longer enter the market after they found out what the goblins are doing. This makes space for either Lou or Neela (or both!) to be a witch, just unaware of it/thinking oh I just borrowed these spells or songs (the old loophole in words) and adds another way that they can escape. For example, Lou taking a memory potion that specifically erases or seals away her memory of being a witch before she goes into the market to rescue Neela, so for most of the book everyone thinks she's 100% regular human just with magic items - but then it's strange because she seems a bit too familiar with how to use these magic items for someone who has no recollection of magic.
I feel the raven boys series will be something all three of you will enjoy. It's a character based aesthetic story I feel you will find at the very least interesting. Also you already know you like Magie Stievaters writing so I hink it's a safe enjoyable bet
I am disappointed to hear the goblins were not trading in names, memories, the taste of your favourite food etc. And selling like, magic and wishes and talents.
I love how you go straight into it 😄 and I love that Katie keeps mentioning Holly Black, she's really the best with goblins and faeries. I've had her older works for some time now and I always mean to read it but never get to it hah
Your suggestions about the goblin market make so much sense! That whole part of the world seems to lack inner logic and if it was a smaller part of the plot maybe I could brush it aside, but it's kind of the centre.
I haven't read this one, but I enjoy listening to you all discuss the books so much that I like putting them on to listen :D There's a YA faerie series called Wicked Lovely by Melissa Marr based around modern day faeries, the Fae Courts, and seeing through glamours and the like. I remember liking them a lot when I was younger, though I couldn't say whether I'd still view them so fondly now XD. I'm trying to think of other faerie stories but apparently my brain forgot everything I've ever read LOL.
Give this channel a chance, everyone! It's great! I just have to say how much I enjoy your chemistry as hosts. You all have really magnetic personalities and I understand that even though your views can wildly differ on some very key issues, you nevertheless continue to come together for the love of (hopefully) great books and your unions always culminate in what are unique, insighful and totally entertaining discussions. I really enjoy listening, so thank you. Cheers!🕊
This is a really interesting discussion and I think gets at a lot of what frustrates me in fairy fiction - the fairy magic is nonsensical but it *should still make sense* !! It's not just silly and weird and otherworldly for its sake, but it's carnivalesque. And when you instead just write like ... A girl went there and the creatures were cruel. Like. Okay.
Ngl the cover art is nice tho 😅 Also that Liam Neeson reference just took me out lmao. I'm surprised just how so many of these bad books make it to publishing.
This book is a YA book, which I think held it back a lot. I read it last year and don't remember much because it was very meh to me. Lots was left unexplored and the story wraps up very neatly with a little bow at the end, which wasn't satisfying. I've just stopped expecting anything memorable from YA because it consistently feels like the story is dumbed down too much and it ends up very hollow.
Have you guys ever read Hunter's Moon, by David Devereux? It's a controversial Urban Fantasy, kind of like the Dresden Files, but set in England, and the magic is more realistic (like occult rituals not throwing fireballs).
william, you say you are tired of bad books, why not try assassin's apprentice by robin hobb or le guin's earthsea? i am sure you have heard of them. i think it will restore your faith in fantasy literature (for the three of you)
Heya, perspective from someone who is asexual and works in ace-education spaces: This is accurate ace representation. There are assumptions being made in this podcast that physical attraction and the desire for lifelong partnerships (mentioned here as "soulmates") implies sexual attraction, but that's not a part of the ace experience. There are many kinds of attraction: Romantic, platonic, aesthetic, familial, physical, sexual, etc. People who are ace can feel any of these, but don't experience sexual attraction (or experience it very, very rarely). For example, I'm attracted to some people's physical appearances, and I get romantic crushes, but it's never coupled with any kind of sexual attraction. Anyway, just wanted to share that, since it's very common for asexual folks to get misunderstood by allosexuals. Love the podcast-hope this tidbit of information is helpful. :)
Thanks for the perspective! There's a lot of facets to the issue, and I think me and Katie were mostly just confused about why the main character's attraction to her cousin felt sexual i.e. the short skirt thing. It very well may be a poor, or unnuanced reading based on our background, though. --Will
@@unresolvedtextualtension Sure thing. I can see how it could be interpreted that way if it's outside of someone's personal experience, so I understand-that's why I thought it might be helpful for me to share a little from the ace perspective. I think the observations you two make in the rest of the review are great. Based on the skirt scene you mentioned, maybe this will help provide some additional insight into the experiences of ace people: Ace people are aware (even hyperaware, in many cases) of what kinds of clothing are considered sexually provocative, because these things are culturally communicated to us all the time from media, school, work, friends, etc. While they may not evoke sexual attraction in ace people, what they represent can be uncomfortable and stand out to us, especially if the ace people who are exposed to it identify as sex repulsed. Even if they don't, we're aware of the culturally reinforced significance behind these clothes. (But, as an important note, these feelings are no reflection of what we think about people who wear clothes like this-it's just an automatic response many of us can have to sexualized objects, gestures, language, etc. We respect the choices and autonomy of people when it comes to how they present themselves. The fact that ace people have a reaction to it is just a part of the way some of us are wired, and we don't impose that on others.) Again, I hope you find this helpful! I enjoy sharing information about asexuality where I can, and because this is a podcast I quite enjoy, I'm happy you read my earlier comment and mentioned how the differences in experiences could have impacted your interpretation of things. Very much appreciate that.
I'm assuming you've read or at least seen the October Daye series by Seanan McGuire. Urban fae with excellent world building and it's many books in one series. She also writes as Mira Grant. October is a private investigator for fae and humans.
Would be i like thre were stuf that can yeah gits that are no where else, what about medicine that can stu witches done, or what else. an hot an. Why not th moher twist?!
9:40 Hi, Katie, aroace here. TL:DR: Your loud objection made we want to waffle. I disagree and it's my topic. Anyone not ace should think Will's save is adequate and for everyone else you are who you are they're going to deal. I think he did a good job considering he's defo not ace. Just sharing a sleepy trailing thought. Not read the book so my context is only what you've said. The author indeed may have fumbled their ace character with poor word choices. I have missed romantic cues in my very real life. What have I missed? What have I wriiten that I've missed? "LGBT" Not just a label, but an advisory sticker, OMG. I'm imagining you could sit down with my book and get needlessly disturbed and spending a good chunk of the podcast complaining how I led you down so many garden paths. Will's much closer to the truth here; sounds like a poorly fleshed out character. An ace can indeed be jealous of someone for looking great in a skirt that they know they will not. It is wisdom to not try and maturity to 'foggetaboutit'. There's nothing s*xual or romantic about wanting to look good. (Or noticing someone else does.) 'Hey, spark of a thing' or as someone else described it 'blip on the radar'. Legit for an ace to encounter the feeling. 'Do Nothing about it' is only a 'likely' response... When you're writing an ace character, remember that Nothing happens romantically unless you've built a lot of other desires into them that will lead them into that direction. To have kids, to not be alone or the toxic one: social pressure. The heteronormative mindset is shoved down our throats all the live long day so that is psychological damage. It tends to s*w you up when your life doesn't work the way 'everyone else' does and you feel the pressure. We don't stick out, and we don't fit in. We're weird. Also still on this literally one single thing you impulsively said (your take is just this darn interesting to me, lol): I think you're missing some basic character coding: It's an ego issue if X thinks they would look good in a skirt and a self esteem issue if X thinks they won't. In either case, it's a personal reflection of that character. As in 'too much'! Introspection means self absorption and in a well rounded character, that means they're processing emotional baggage. If there's nothing else going on with this character other than being ace, they are still living in a world where they're different; unable to straddle the divide between their personal happiness and being # normal. As far as an ace character arc is concerned, a YA has work in front of them to discover what their personal 'normal' is and to decide how they're going to "live in a cookie cutter world". Dating is hard. Why, if you're struggling to see the benefits over the trouble? Letting go is easy. Holding on is hard. Normal people just wear the GD skirt so it's funny you described the overthink as "not normal". Maybe that's what you were trying to say but the nuance got lost in translation. Speaking into a microphone without a script is hard. You guys do alright together. It's nice to see you catch each other. But as to ace people. If a declared ace character has a spark for someone and they're holding onto it without processing it, that is poor character writing IMO. 'What is that? WTH is that? Explain, logical side of my brain wants to know! And variations upon that: "I want you, I need you, but there ain't no way that I'm ever going to love you. But don't feel sad, two out of three ain't bad." - Meatball Retrospectively, maybe as good as it gets, putting aside familial love which is absolutely not what they mean in the everyday love song. Third tickbox is greyed out. As a society we are still working through earlier, more baseline iterations of LBGT storytelling. Clarity should be high on the list of anyone writing into this space. Goblins, on the other hand, they should be easy to write; we all know their baseline. It's safe to build complexities on top of it... Anyway, done waffling. Maybe I've helped a fellow writer with writing an ace character. "When you live in a cookie cutter world, being different is a sin. So you don't stand out. And you don't fit in. Weird." - Hansen, long before I knew ace existed, I loved this song.
Apologies, I haven’t had a sec to rewatch what youre mentioning but I was coming from an anecdotal place so very biased and not educated on the matter -Kt
York is exactly the sort of place I would expect to find a goblin market.
"Clocks don't have gears they don't need." just blew my mind. That's some GOOD writing advice.
In response to 23:16 (ish), it would make TOTAL sense if the main character's repression drove her to the Goblin Market because it's WHAT DROVE THE SISTER IN THE ORIGINAL STORY. This book (which I have NOT read) is based on a poem called "Goblin Market" by Christina Rossetti (which I HAVE read), which was written in the Victorian period. The poem is about two sisters, one of whom is tempted into the Goblin Market where she feasts on all this very delicious (and erotically described) fruit. Yes, yes, it's all a metaphor for sexual temptation because duh it's the Victorian period and people are freaks but also repressed. This book strips away that element of female sexual repression and is undoubtedly part of the reason why the character choices feel so unmotivated.
Also re: the weird/vaguely sexual relationship between the cousins(?), That's another carryover from the poem, where the sisters have an oddly intense relationship. Some argue that the women are portrayed as sisters as a sort of stand-in for them being lesbians; as in, the only way a relationship so strong and emotionally involved could be presented was between two sisters). Sorry if this is explained later in the video; I'm only halfway through
Personally, if the author was going for the fey inspiration with the goblin market and the whole "they're fascinated with and try to draw humans in" type of aspect, they could have really toyed with the fact that in a lot of folklore around them, time runs different in their realms which is why they live so long *and* the fact that fey are often associated with nature (or remote places where humans are not typically found)
Make it so the reason that goblins/fey/what have you in this book view humans as a people that burn bright but not very long which is fascinating to them the same way immortality tends to be for people (like they could still eat people and all that stuff but the goblins do that because they're trying to make like a reverse philosopher's stone or something like that)
Edit: and tie in the witches as trying to stem this tide of humans being drawn to the goblin markets - specifically witches who know they're witches can no longer enter the market after they found out what the goblins are doing. This makes space for either Lou or Neela (or both!) to be a witch, just unaware of it/thinking oh I just borrowed these spells or songs (the old loophole in words) and adds another way that they can escape.
For example, Lou taking a memory potion that specifically erases or seals away her memory of being a witch before she goes into the market to rescue Neela, so for most of the book everyone thinks she's 100% regular human just with magic items - but then it's strange because she seems a bit too familiar with how to use these magic items for someone who has no recollection of magic.
I feel the raven boys series will be something all three of you will enjoy. It's a character based aesthetic story I feel you will find at the very least interesting. Also you already know you like Magie Stievaters writing so I hink it's a safe enjoyable bet
I am disappointed to hear the goblins were not trading in names, memories, the taste of your favourite food etc. And selling like, magic and wishes and talents.
I actually didn’t know this is a weekly podcast, but I am glad it is so and I’m glad I realized it :)
These roasts make me, as a baby author, so nervous lol.
But at the same time, some of these books are still stupidly popular. idk
Not sure if I could handle Will slaughterin A Dark & Hollow Star Ashley Shuttlesworth, but I think you'd have fun with it, Katie.
I love how you go straight into it 😄 and I love that Katie keeps mentioning Holly Black, she's really the best with goblins and faeries. I've had her older works for some time now and I always mean to read it but never get to it hah
Your suggestions about the goblin market make so much sense! That whole part of the world seems to lack inner logic and if it was a smaller part of the plot maybe I could brush it aside, but it's kind of the centre.
I haven't read this one, but I enjoy listening to you all discuss the books so much that I like putting them on to listen :D
There's a YA faerie series called Wicked Lovely by Melissa Marr based around modern day faeries, the Fae Courts, and seeing through glamours and the like. I remember liking them a lot when I was younger, though I couldn't say whether I'd still view them so fondly now XD.
I'm trying to think of other faerie stories but apparently my brain forgot everything I've ever read LOL.
Give this channel a chance, everyone! It's great!
I just have to say how much I enjoy your chemistry as hosts. You all have really magnetic personalities and I understand that even though your views can wildly differ on some very key issues, you nevertheless continue to come together for the love of (hopefully) great books and your unions always culminate in what are unique, insighful and totally entertaining discussions.
I really enjoy listening, so thank you.
Cheers!🕊
This is a really interesting discussion and I think gets at a lot of what frustrates me in fairy fiction - the fairy magic is nonsensical but it *should still make sense* !! It's not just silly and weird and otherworldly for its sake, but it's carnivalesque. And when you instead just write like ... A girl went there and the creatures were cruel. Like. Okay.
16:24. Oh, I think I see the confusion. These were gobblins, not goblins.
Nocturnes by John Connolly - short stories, paranormal horror tendencies, and some of them include fae in the modern world :D
You can tell Will edits Amandas videos from how he outros now xD
Ngl the cover art is nice tho 😅
Also that Liam Neeson reference just took me out lmao. I'm surprised just how so many of these bad books make it to publishing.
This book is a YA book, which I think held it back a lot. I read it last year and don't remember much because it was very meh to me. Lots was left unexplored and the story wraps up very neatly with a little bow at the end, which wasn't satisfying. I've just stopped expecting anything memorable from YA because it consistently feels like the story is dumbed down too much and it ends up very hollow.
Have you guys ever read Hunter's Moon, by David Devereux? It's a controversial Urban Fantasy, kind of like the Dresden Files, but set in England, and the magic is more realistic (like occult rituals not throwing fireballs).
william, you say you are tired of bad books, why not try assassin's apprentice by robin hobb or le guin's earthsea? i am sure you have heard of them. i think it will restore your faith in fantasy literature (for the three of you)
@14:33 Textual Tension Intensifies
Heya, perspective from someone who is asexual and works in ace-education spaces: This is accurate ace representation. There are assumptions being made in this podcast that physical attraction and the desire for lifelong partnerships (mentioned here as "soulmates") implies sexual attraction, but that's not a part of the ace experience. There are many kinds of attraction: Romantic, platonic, aesthetic, familial, physical, sexual, etc. People who are ace can feel any of these, but don't experience sexual attraction (or experience it very, very rarely). For example, I'm attracted to some people's physical appearances, and I get romantic crushes, but it's never coupled with any kind of sexual attraction.
Anyway, just wanted to share that, since it's very common for asexual folks to get misunderstood by allosexuals. Love the podcast-hope this tidbit of information is helpful. :)
Thanks for the perspective! There's a lot of facets to the issue, and I think me and Katie were mostly just confused about why the main character's attraction to her cousin felt sexual i.e. the short skirt thing. It very well may be a poor, or unnuanced reading based on our background, though.
--Will
@@unresolvedtextualtension Sure thing. I can see how it could be interpreted that way if it's outside of someone's personal experience, so I understand-that's why I thought it might be helpful for me to share a little from the ace perspective. I think the observations you two make in the rest of the review are great.
Based on the skirt scene you mentioned, maybe this will help provide some additional insight into the experiences of ace people:
Ace people are aware (even hyperaware, in many cases) of what kinds of clothing are considered sexually provocative, because these things are culturally communicated to us all the time from media, school, work, friends, etc. While they may not evoke sexual attraction in ace people, what they represent can be uncomfortable and stand out to us, especially if the ace people who are exposed to it identify as sex repulsed. Even if they don't, we're aware of the culturally reinforced significance behind these clothes. (But, as an important note, these feelings are no reflection of what we think about people who wear clothes like this-it's just an automatic response many of us can have to sexualized objects, gestures, language, etc. We respect the choices and autonomy of people when it comes to how they present themselves. The fact that ace people have a reaction to it is just a part of the way some of us are wired, and we don't impose that on others.)
Again, I hope you find this helpful! I enjoy sharing information about asexuality where I can, and because this is a podcast I quite enjoy, I'm happy you read my earlier comment and mentioned how the differences in experiences could have impacted your interpretation of things. Very much appreciate that.
Have you guys thought about reading Splintered by AG Howard? It's one of my favorite Alice in Wonderland retellings
I like LP's version of scarborough fair more, her voice is amazing.
I personally am ready for strong male representation to make a comeback 🤷🏼♀️
Thank goodness. I was beginning to doubt my decision...
I'm assuming you've read or at least seen the October Daye series by Seanan McGuire. Urban fae with excellent world building and it's many books in one series. She also writes as Mira Grant. October is a private investigator for fae and humans.
i really enjoyed this book and that's why i probably won't be listening to this one, just want you to have the comments 🤣🤣
22:12 The millenial experience
*claiming first thumbs up* 😌
Would be i like thre were stuf that can yeah gits that are no where else, what about medicine that can stu witches done, or what else. an hot an.
Why not th moher twist?!
9:40 Hi, Katie, aroace here. TL:DR: Your loud objection made we want to waffle. I disagree and it's my topic. Anyone not ace should think Will's save is adequate and for everyone else you are who you are they're going to deal. I think he did a good job considering he's defo not ace. Just sharing a sleepy trailing thought.
Not read the book so my context is only what you've said. The author indeed may have fumbled their ace character with poor word choices. I have missed romantic cues in my very real life. What have I missed? What have I wriiten that I've missed? "LGBT" Not just a label, but an advisory sticker, OMG. I'm imagining you could sit down with my book and get needlessly disturbed and spending a good chunk of the podcast complaining how I led you down so many garden paths.
Will's much closer to the truth here; sounds like a poorly fleshed out character.
An ace can indeed be jealous of someone for looking great in a skirt that they know they will not. It is wisdom to not try and maturity to 'foggetaboutit'. There's nothing s*xual or romantic about wanting to look good. (Or noticing someone else does.)
'Hey, spark of a thing' or as someone else described it 'blip on the radar'. Legit for an ace to encounter the feeling. 'Do Nothing about it' is only a 'likely' response... When you're writing an ace character, remember that Nothing happens romantically unless you've built a lot of other desires into them that will lead them into that direction. To have kids, to not be alone or the toxic one: social pressure. The heteronormative mindset is shoved down our throats all the live long day so that is psychological damage. It tends to s*w you up when your life doesn't work the way 'everyone else' does and you feel the pressure.
We don't stick out, and we don't fit in. We're weird.
Also still on this literally one single thing you impulsively said (your take is just this darn interesting to me, lol): I think you're missing some basic character coding: It's an ego issue if X thinks they would look good in a skirt and a self esteem issue if X thinks they won't.
In either case, it's a personal reflection of that character. As in 'too much'! Introspection means self absorption and in a well rounded character, that means they're processing emotional baggage. If there's nothing else going on with this character other than being ace, they are still living in a world where they're different; unable to straddle the divide between their personal happiness and being # normal. As far as an ace character arc is concerned, a YA has work in front of them to discover what their personal 'normal' is and to decide how they're going to "live in a cookie cutter world". Dating is hard. Why, if you're struggling to see the benefits over the trouble? Letting go is easy. Holding on is hard.
Normal people just wear the GD skirt so it's funny you described the overthink as "not normal". Maybe that's what you were trying to say but the nuance got lost in translation. Speaking into a microphone without a script is hard. You guys do alright together. It's nice to see you catch each other.
But as to ace people. If a declared ace character has a spark for someone and they're holding onto it without processing it, that is poor character writing IMO. 'What is that? WTH is that? Explain, logical side of my brain wants to know! And variations upon that:
"I want you, I need you, but there ain't no way that I'm ever going to love you. But don't feel sad, two out of three ain't bad." - Meatball
Retrospectively, maybe as good as it gets, putting aside familial love which is absolutely not what they mean in the everyday love song. Third tickbox is greyed out.
As a society we are still working through earlier, more baseline iterations of LBGT storytelling. Clarity should be high on the list of anyone writing into this space.
Goblins, on the other hand, they should be easy to write; we all know their baseline. It's safe to build complexities on top of it...
Anyway, done waffling. Maybe I've helped a fellow writer with writing an ace character.
"When you live in a cookie cutter world, being different is a sin. So you don't stand out. And you don't fit in. Weird." - Hansen, long before I knew ace existed, I loved this song.
My apologies for anyone who isn't both aro and ace, I've blended the terms in my tiredness.
Apologies, I haven’t had a sec to rewatch what youre mentioning but I was coming from an anecdotal place so very biased and not educated on the matter -Kt