But what if what you are giving is bad? What if people say you look like Ron? Are you supposed to just then going on trying to bring the idea of Ron to people? And do you have to actually adopt the ideas around the fashion? Maybe this is just because this is my first watch of the video but I felt a little confused as to what one is "supposed to do" still.
I’m glad i read this at the end of the video bc i was, indeed, waiting the entire video for this to somehow morph into a jordan peterson deep dive lol. Tbf i do also suspect that the actual vid is gonna be massive. An hour did not seem right
alright, that makes more sense, had me panicked there for a second. on a *tuesday* of all days. (i’m aware that i commented this before, but it was _funny_ and i shan’t permit such humor to go to waste)
It has been my dream for a while to just get the most killer suit made for a few years now. It came mostly from thinking that "the Rainbow Mafia" actually just sounds frickin' awesome.
My maternal grandma had this beige coat. She looked stylish in it. She had pathos. My mother tried it on and she aged forty years, like she was cosplaying a little old lady. My dad tried it on and he looked like a mad scientist. I tried it on and I looked like a gumshoe on a difficult case. This is what I know about fashion.
This helped me solidify why I just dress like a normal lady even though I love interesting weird clothes. I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking I'm interesting or weird
I'm the opposite, I WANT to be seen as interesting and weird and not normal. Because I'm non-binary and disabled and neurodivergent (AuDHD + mental illness) and I want other queer and disabled/neurodivergent/marginalized people to see me and know that I'm safe because I'm not part of the group that historically and in an ongoing fashion has oppressed them and made them feel unsafe and unwelcome. I've thought this way long before seeing this video. I usually described my ideal gender presentation as one that confuses cisgender people who want to categorize me as male or female, and feels familiar and identifiable to fellow queers. Of course being visibly marginalized comes with risks, and I technically could present in a way that betrays my identity but conforms to what is expected socially as long as my health is good enough that day to not need a mobility aid (cane, forearm crutches, walker with wheels and a seat. I don't own a wheelchair.) But luckily I do live in a part of Canada where it is relatively safe to stand out the way I do. I get some discrimination for sure, but I'm rarely in physical danger like I would be in less progressive parts of the world.
It's funny because I used to have like a double life type wardrobe. Basic af vs extravaganza complete with fantastical makeup and shoes. Kinda a daytime/nighttime thing because I was active in the "spiritual" corner of the club/rave/party scene where I felt I could express a certain creativity. And during the normal days I wanted to be comfortable, practical and somewhat anonymous
like you wouldnt assume it, in fact youd assume the opposite. also hi professor i didnt think youd be here but CJ likes hip hop you have that privileged knowledge in common!
You are so unbelievably real for that and he'd eat it up because then it'd be relevant to the social setting whilst still being expressive for the person
This video reinforced that my slightly incoherent style mixed with the compliments I get for “dressing well” does actually serve to communicate that I am embracing a more absurdist philosophy.
@@micahwright5901 Does it communicate that though? This video is giving me a lot to think about in terms of what I’m actually communicating & want to communicate & what dress is capable of communicating. I don’t think dress can communicate that you’re embracing an absurdist philosophy - just like it couldn’t communicate CJ’s rap/tumblr/raised online philosophies. But musician was close enough to be accepted by society as something not dangerous or insane & also broad enough to allow for his unique artistic expression to be acceptable within it. Dress can communicate something, but it seems only something broad and immediately recognizable. If I’m interested in 7 different things, I may have to choose the most beneficial and comfortable aesthetic to navigate the world in for my day to day wardrobe - or not. And choose niche fits for niche events and gatherings, etc. But either way, I don’t think clothes can get nuanced enough to speak to your entire personality and philosophies - I think you have to pick which aspects of your personality and which philosophies you want to be perceived as.
@@JellieJoShmothat last sentence is what so often had (and, to some degree, still has) me sitting in front of my closet with every bit of clothing I own on the floor around me, near tears because nothing is communicating me how I want. I'm now an old, and I still struggle? The ADHD and the functionally useless too-smartness (inconsistently sanded down by years of heavy drug use) doesn't help, but JFC this video ❤️🔥
@@moxiebombshell Right?! This video has given me so much to think about. Also, I think I should’ve added “at first glance” at the very end of my comment. Because this is all about first impressions/perception upon first glance - if you follow the rules of a particular immediately recognizable niche, then most people will know how to place you and accept you as a member of society without ever exchanging a word. If we’re too unique in our dress society will treat us like they don’t know what to do with us - which is the feeling we’re trying to avoid with coherent dress, right? We want to be consistently accepted by society while also being our authentic selves. And of course, those who get past the first glances will get to know the nuanced version of us.
me too! babbling incoherently, or just speaking in a language some might not understand??? my message does not have to be understood by every person. have confidence !! :)
What a fucking masterclass. Thank you. As a trans man, the pain of not being able to make much sense _until you figure out how you do_ is so closely linked to community, appearance and thereby dress. This made me so hopeful that in all the babbling that I will not stop attempting I will soon have my first words
Felt this viscerally. I never felt like I was part of the world or like I had any sense of style\* until I transitioned and now I'm living as a dude, not just any dude but one of those nerdy long-haired bearded guys who's into metal and fantasy and stuff like that. It's nice to be part of something and to embody it in my own way \* or more accurately I had a vague sense of what my style was but absolutely no idea how to embody it, it's because I didn't know I was a dude. Trying to style myself without knowing who I was was like trying to build a house without a foundation
I relate so much to the "not knowing the language of fashion" issue. In my first year of university, a friend who later became a seamstress taught me how to dress. We were both metalheads, but she looked amazing and I didn't. She didn't tell me what to wear, but rather HOW to wear different things; what fits, what communicates, where I can get inspo from. I started liking myself so much more after that, and I didn't dress like my friend at all, I just, liked, grew a fashion conscience. My own. I have no idea how that happened.
@@matthewsoza I am no expert, but here's some stuff that helped me (I have a belly and big thighs, but I'm otherwise "average" sized). Think about the materials of your clothes and how they interact with your body and each other: things that flow and fall are good, actually! and you can combine those with tighter fits - tight jeans with an oversized hoodie or cardigan and t-shirt for me. Think about your silhouette as a whole: adding bulky shoes to this one gives it more balance, adding slim shoes makes you focus more on the top part instead. Don't be afraid to experiment. Nobody is going to ridicule you or even say anything to you anyways. Try new colours from time to time and see how you feel. Curious about jewelry? Get a cool chain or ring. Give it a shot. Most importantly: stay comfy. Wear what makes you happy. If your clothes don't make you feel anything, find some that do. I am a sucker for graphic tees and I wear black every day; that's fine! I'm going for a chill hipstery metal vibe. We all have our own style, just need to slowly grow into it.
I've always adored that stupid heaven or hell suit and I think its specifically because it makes him look like a comic book villain. It communicates this vapid self involved antagonism that's so fascinating to see off the page where it belongs. He monologues nonsensically like he's about to use a giant stolen diamond as a focus in order to summon the twin dragons of chaos and order. In another world where the stakes were lower and his words couldnt cause me harm I'd find it charming to see a cartoon man who says cartoon things dress appropriately for his job as a cartoon
I think his fashion is finally in alignment with his self and what more can a hyper-individualist prepostmodern libertaripublican tertiary anti-villain wish for?
Your comment merits more likes than I can offer, so I'll just try to point out how "vapid, self-involved antagonism" is a hermetically perfect phrase for this context like oh my gosh that caught me like a fishhook
He even has the backstory of a cartoon villain, specifically due to being ostracized and delegitimized by his academic peers following a dive into extremism and points that drastically differ from the accepted beliefs of his field. Except instead of being a botanist who thinks plants should rule the world or a geneticist who wants to turn people into lizards, he’s a Canadian psychologist who is in danger of having his doctorate revoked if he doesn’t stop spouting inflammatory and inaccurate statements about transgender people on his wide reaching and major social media platforms. And instead of his punishment being jail time or a psychiatric ward stay, he’s being subjected to “media training”.
Reminds me of how growing up in rural germany my only reference for black people was stars like Rihanna, sure was interesting to learn about black history in america later
Wait a minute when you get the complement that you look like celebrity what is the connection with them not knowing enough queer people will you mind if I ask you to explain
weirdly, i think complete freedom has made people more self-conscious about their dress. like, the number of times i've had friends text the gc pics of their outfits before we hang out asking for opinions as if the ppl in the gc are not the exact same people that they're going shopping/clubbing/etc. with. the guidelines have disappeared but the judgement hasn't, and that just makes everyone more confused
Yeah like the standards upon which we are being judged are going to be different everywhere. If I wear my emo clothes people who were into MCR in the 2000s (my peers) are seeing something completely different to people who got into alt/emo fashion in 2020. The conclusions they come to about me are going to be completely different and it's impossible to factor in all those different reactions to properly craft the message you want to send with your outfit
Good point. As sort of a microcosm of the larger point I offer this anecdote: When I was a kid my middle school required uniforms but once in awhile they would have dress down days where you could wear whatever you wanted. However the social expectation, especially among girls, was not to come in wearing whatever but rather to have the hippest and most fashionable casual outfits. In the same way if you were a millionaire businessman in 1924 you pretty much have a uniform to wear. In 2024 not so much.
Putting a clip of JP saying "it's antisocial, your clothes aren't exactly for you" next to the picture of the exact suit that he is wearing when saying that and the message matching exactly what you are saying is amazing and poetic.
watched this video last week and then went out with some friends. i was initially embarrassed to realize several of us were wearing variations of the same outfit and then i was like wait. no. this makes sense. we belong together.
"I didn't feel special, I just felt alone." That is so real. Thank you. Can you please just spout thoughts at me every day forever and make me feel a little validated and a little less alone?
For many, many years now I have felt very guilty about being uncomfortable around people who dress extremely loud and attention-grabbing but otherwise fit in great with mainstream society in terms of their views on life, the way they move, the way they think, the absence of death energy as it were. It almost feels like a bit of a betrayal, when you're talking to someone who serves specialness but only gives normalcy. And I think a large part of that was a feeling of "why would anyone willingly invite the very thing I'm trying to break free from? Why are you signaling that you are different and apart from others when you're so obviously not, especially in a world where being different is dangerous and alienating? It's terrible being treated as different. Why do you invite it?" Me in my camouflage looking for connection could not wrap my head around that. Still can't completely, if I'm honest. Fitting into the world naturally is such a blessing. Why reject it? Why reject connection and acceptance? Is being special and apart so precious to you that you're willing to sacrifice all the blessings of community? Why? This video goes some way into reframing that for me. Also CJ can't make you feel less alone. They're not real, they live in your computer. As far as you know they're pixels and soundwaves. I guarantee you there's someone in your area code who can do the same thing but better, because they can also give hugs and hear what you're saying and tell you when there's toilet paper stuck to the bottom of your shoe.
The number of times “a little bit of rules, structure, and restriction can be good, actually” has come up recently as solid advice for a part of my life is surprisingly high. “Do whatever you want, but do it right” is pretty decent as a motto
A little bit of rules, structure, and restriction are necessary for freedom, I feel. I had to take this class in college where you finished the course with a 'creative reflection' where you could do anything you wanted. I was a year late turning it in because I didn't know what to do. If they had said: 'make a painting/poem/whatever' I would've had a million ideas instantly.
When one begins to meditate on what it means to do something rightly. All of sudden, it becomes clear that there are quite a number of ways to do something wrongly. Almost as if structure imposes itself on the world in relationship to the goal.
I just had a hermeneutical injustice moment with the phrase hermeneutical injustice. I'm autistic and frequently struggle with expressing what I'm feeling or experiencing and constantly feel trapped in my own brain because of it, because there isn't a word for "my pocket caught on a doorknob while someone was talking too loud so now I want to kms" or "you made a facial expression I don't know and now I'm panicking" so I just have to like. be in it, by myself. and now I know at least there's a phrase for when I'm trapped by myself in an experience
oh god yeah, same. been my school's main scapegoat for bullies and never knew why for decades, until I learned about my neurodivergence. honestly, I feel like some societal structures depend on hermeneutical injustice in order to even exist. because like, what do you do with bullies if they don't have their scapegoat? just let them bully everyone? and how do you keep up patriarchy when women start sharing their harassment stories with each other? and what if neurodivergent people aren't just some singular freaks, but a whole another neurotype? will they have to treat us seriously and with dignity now? it's convenient for people in power and systems to keep us separated, undereducated and silent.
As someone who studied fashion history and has created actual historical garments seeing someone finally bring these things that I love to light is amazing. Drape, weight, silhouette, and texture are things we are taught to look for especially when creating historical garments. I have created and seen other student create these Victorian and Georgian garments and they are heavy, they have body to them, that is not something I see in the modern tight fitting suits nowadays. A suit should have at least four layers in the body; top fabric, stayflex (or any other fabric stiffener), bump, and lining, and extra padding if needed. You just don’t see that now, modern suits look like they have at most three layers. In our need to make everything cheeper and faster we have taken away all the small thing that make a suit a suit. Instead of a proper reduced sauce you have a burnt crusty mess. The suits have crust on them.
I think we've been having a lowkey arts and crafts movement revival since at least the late 2010s and I'm delighted we're finally starting to talk about it out loud
I liked JP's suits at first glance on the basis of the fact that most men's suits are like today's cars- utilitarian, slightly-altered versions of each other. To me, Peterson's suits at least had color, a personal touch. And this is despite the fact that I deeply dislike Peterson's politics. Knowing the pettiness behind these clothes ruined them for me, because if as an artist or an "intellectual" you choose to go hard on one of your principles, they better be solid ones, not just "fuck the haters".
Same. The suits kinda came across as campy and queer, which appeals to me instinctively. But learning the background of how they were made make me feel erghehge🤮
This is a big criticism of a lot of avant garde art for me. I love the language of avant garde performance, visual art, music, etc. But you can’t just keep making the same point that anything can be considered art when that is entirely agreed upon in the circles you’re trying to appeal to. The art has to mean something apart from that as well. It has to invoke something that the audience can connect too. IMO the best avant garde art has to offer is when a concept or concepts grounded in a tradition are stretched in absurd and extreme ways to the point of conveying an entirely new feeling that’s still connected to the original context.
@late8138 What are you even trying to convey with this? Hypocrisy how? Are you saying that it's hypocritical to like the first-glance aesthetics of Jordan Peterson's suits, or that it's hypocrisy to feel that the intent/meaning is shallow?
"I didn't feel special; I just felt alone" is a reparation to a hermeneutical injustice I've only just been realizing I've experienced in the past year or two. My cultural psychology class this term naturally compares individualist vs collectivist cultures a lot which has left me with a lot of complicated feelings when considering what I want society to look like and this video has given me the means to articulate my simultaneous dissatisfaction with restrictive cultural hegemonies that Western culture used to look more like and the total abandonment of cultural meaning that we have now. I want the freedom to form and be a part of cultural groups without fear of social punishment from the monoculture that the elite construct, not the freedom to form a bubble around myself for the sake of individualistic pursuits and become alienated from those around me
"I want the freedom to form and be a part of cultural groups without fear of social punishment from the monoculture that the elite construct, not the freedom to form a bubble around myself for the sake of individualistic pursuits and become alienated from those around me" glad i read this because it made me understand what CJ was saying in the credits of the video. at least i think it does. Like i want the freedom to communicate with who I want to and how i want to with out being shamed out of it. i don't want to communicate only with myself. I just want to be able to do that communication online instead.
as an autistic girl i relate to chapter IV on a deeply personal level with most things in my life. I'm babbling trying to mimic language i don't understand just to fit in let alone somehow express myself through it
I often think about how I think thought is the purest form of information because we all have to translate our thinking into our language. But sometimes it is hard or you kind of just can’t translate it correctly
This must be why I love wearing scrubs so much. I don’t have to think about it beyond what color I want to wear, I can immediately fit in with a group, and I am not overwhelmed by options either at home or in the store. None of the pressure to be original but not crazy is nice too. Thank you for making this video. All of it was great but part 4 especially made me feel seen and understood. Now I just have to convince my friends to watch this, wish me luck
Derek Guy is the reason I cannot unsee too-tight men’s suits. Being female, I knew next to nothing about men’s fashion before following him. It’s actually fascinating, and in the world of fast fashion I love hearing anyone talk about things like drape and tailoring.
As someone who started sewing their own clothes to escape the unflattering spandex hellscape, this is a great discussion with so much to unpack. I used to feel uncomfortable with the regressive connotations of the flattering 50s fit-and-flare silhouette, but it has always felt physically and aesthetically correct for me. I have gradually embraced it as representative of my dedication to the husband and home I cherish, rather than the patriarchal ideal itself. Moreover I get so many compliments now, which opens the discussion to the eco-friendly materials, size-adjustability, and ethical labor which go into my dresses. My clothes are now part of who I am; something that cannot be bought.
I also wear a lot of hand made clothing, although I have to pay someone to do it for me. If I find a garment I like, I have it remade when it starts looking off instead of braving the shops looking for something not made of polyester that can be worn for more than two seasons.
This is so similar to my experience building a sense of style and wardrobe I’m happy with! I just rambled about it elsewhere in he comments but I should have read your comment first haha
Art and fashion are not just cultural language or purely subjective, there is innate meaning and beauty it is built upon, e.g. there is lots of subjectivity in music, but consonant sounds have certain physical properties, and purely dissonant music is insufferable. Clothing I would guess is about attractiveness, social role and self-expression. And IMHO we are overdoing the individualism. With modern clothing people often imitate pop stars, it is a little bit like everyone is trying to be extra special, and women's clothing is often heavily sexualized. Which I can understand when one goes dancing but I do not get the need to show your ass to strangers when you go shopping. Or with men that wear jogging pants everywhere I think the subtext is "I do what I want, and I don't care about you." More classic fashion is attractive, e.g. it tries to make one look thin or broad-shouldered, but much more modest. The communication is more "I am an upstanding citizen". A more classical understanding of society is that there are the decent working people and the riff raff or so and one tries to appear respectable or face social rejection, while nowadays there is more a focus on appearing liberated from or above society and rebels are idolized. I think classic fashion is more honest and functional.
@@pik910 Honest about what, though? I assume the implication is that the sweatpants reflect a facade of 'appearing liberated' while classic fashion reflects the honest truth of people's acceptance of the social contract. I can't necessarily speak for others, but in my experience most of those 'guys who wear jogging pants/sweatpants everywhere' aren't trying to covey a forced sense of detachment and disinterest, they are just genuinely disinterested. While I think this is more a reflection of how the weakening of subcultures has left a lot of people (and when I say people I mostly mean young men), as was mentioned in the video, without much of a grasp of exactly they should dress to convey what they want to. The solution is simply not really dedicating much effort to it, and whether this in of itself is something wrong is separate from the idea of it being 'dishonest'. I think the sweatpants are perfectly honest, really, except in that the disengagement expressed isn't necessarily voluntary.
The fashion historian girlies will tell you that our current era of fashion is very much about revealing the shape of the body as much as possible. Squishing men into too-tight suits looks a lot like the leggings as pants debates I recall from the 2010s.
This fashion historian girlie will also say that it’s cheaper to make stretchy clothes. Both because the material itself is cheaper (synthetic) and because it’ll fit more body sizes, which means you don’t have to make as many sizes. Ready-to-wear fashion has often been decried as the beginning of the end for well-fitted clothes, because it meant clothes were made in certain sizes that accommodated a range of bodies, instead of being fitted to one specific body type. Stretch-added fabrics make it possible to carry just 5 sizes of a blazer that’ll fit most bodies-not well, but it’ll fit.
Entirely independently from this video, I had a fun struggle with fashion mirroring your experience. I wanted to know how to dress, got unintentionally rebuffed by people giving non-advice for how to dress fashionably, grew weary after years of non-answers, decided to treat fashion as a language with which you speak to others, and settled on "fuck it, I'll learn the language myself." I got gently teased/complimented for 'dressing like a Pokémon trainer' about half a year back, and I've been told I dress 'grunge' and that I 'look like I could bite [someone's] head off'. I **love** it. That means I succeeded in telling people "I am a fucking nerd but also I am kind of abrasive if we don't know each other yet." I am speaking fluently, where before I was incapable of coherent speech. edit: apparently people thought I was a guy from this??? No, im just a gay woman
Maybe its my autism, but hearing CJ explain the lack of advice they got regarding fashion guidelines is bananas, bc like? Nobody in his social circle could go "it depends on what situation youre in or what youre trying to communicate. Lets start by making a Pinterest moodboard around a feeling/event, and ill help you pick out clothes that would make others perceive that on you, and we'll go from there" 😅
@@doctorwholover1012a lot of socializing is just complaining/ranting about something that bothers you, and then moving on. with the neurotypical people around me, they don’t offer solutions, because that’s not the point of the conversation. it’s solely to air grievances.
@megan-mr9vk @megan-mr9vk but he was asking directly? I'm familiar with venting vs constructive convos. I'm just baffled that none of his homies were able to see he was asking for direction, not assurance 😅 bc to me it seems so simple, like; How do I dress? However you want. No, like how do I dress in specific ways?? Like how you dress? Oh. It depends on the situation/what ur trying to communicate. Let's get a pintrest board going n figure it out. 😅 like I could identify a friend asking for reassurance vs constructive advice, and when I can't, I ask them using my words? Just seems wild to me that everyone just insisted on assuring him instead of like, checking? Trying?
"Use your self-expression to make things beautiful" perfectly sums up a feeling I've had for a long time about music festivals that drastically changed the amount of energy I put into dressing for them. Anything you attend, you are a part of the scenery, ambiance, and 'vibe.' When you deck yourself out in bright colors, glowy lights, and sparkly shit you're not just making yourself pretty, you're making the whole event a tiny bit prettier.
jordan peterson literaly wrapping himself in self hate to own the left is symbolic in the most hilarious and tragic way possible. on a different note, this was lovely. first time i connected to a discussion about style/fashion. the idea of clothes as social language and a way to signal your social group or social identity isn't new to me, but there's something about how it's discussed here that feels like it relates more to connecting to others and being able to communicate yourself to them, and doesn't have in it's subtext the idea of "fitting in" in the sort of opressive conformist kind of way
Huh, this really shines a light on that phrase" "Know the rules, so you can break them" and helps me see how it makes a lot more sense. The act of breaking those rules should communicate something, but to say something you are more effective if you actually know the language.
you know, i've recently been picked up by a very important art gallery in my country, and recently i've been feeling a little more comfortable using the adjective "artist" to decribe me, opposed to when i was studying painting at uni or when i already had a bachelor degree... and your videos tend to be VERY insightful, it literally has helped me grow in my career as a conceptual artist, and for that THANK YOU.
cj, your videos always make me feel like the astronaut in the last act of 2001 a space odyssey, like i've just touched the monolith and received hidden knowledge of every color my corporeal eyes couldn't see before
“Art is expression” overshadowed “art is communication” Art does both. You don’t get to be a part of a conversation if you don’t have the skill or purpose to say something worthwhile. Edit: I didn’t expect my comment to get this much traction. I’ll keep it up for the sake of discourse, but this is not my hard stance. Please tear it apart if you have something good to say.
Sure. Yet art can be for oneself. If all you care about is having a painting in your home that only you enjoy? That is valid and valuable. Communication simply happens to be valuable as well. Though I’d argue art is just as valuable, if not more so, if it ends up alienating half its audience. Art that takes no risks and is appreciated by all can sometimes be the least interesting. I like Jordan Peterson’s suits. I like the idea of having my personality and ideologies woven into my clothes. I don’t like his ideologies, but I respect the craft. Perhaps CJ’s sample size was too small? They only talked about conservatives, when if a progressive goofy content creator did this, we wouldn’t bat an eye. Hank Green, for example.
Same reason I was always annoyed by phrases like, "art is open to interpretation." Yes, everyone can draw their own meaningful from a beautiful painting, but I still want to know what the artist was thinking when they chose those colors, those expressions, that composition. It's not enough for one person to look at a piece and decide for themselves that it's high art; it has to be painted in a language that the culture can read.
I wanted to comment "Even a diary entry is written in understandable language" but then I remembered the only way I got into journalling was forgoing any attempt of following form or language to raw expression in something that best compares to hollywood portrayals of insane scribbing on prison walls so I guess I take that back
@@calvinjohnson6242That’s true. If art is solely for yourself, then it can be anything that offers catharsis. I’m talking about art that’s part of a larger cultural conversation, like Peterson’s suits. People need a shared language to communicate effectively, and that language can be played with once you’ve mastered it.
Art is also known to offend and shock, expanding the boundaries of culture and art in that way. Most art periods in art history are represented by artists that at some point defied their cultures aesthetic values, creating a new era of art and a lot of controversy at the time.
I wish i could like this twice. The explanation of not being able to dress as like not being able to speak - EXACTLY. The idea of figuring out who you are and dressing like a member of that group - THANK YOU, I NEEDED THAT
I freaking love this topic, one of my favorite experiences as an art teacher was spending a whole semester discussing different aesthetics philosophies with a bunch of what started as awkward shy teens and ended as slightly more self assured awkward teens. Seeing them comprehend and put a name to their own aesthetic experiences was magical to me. To me fashion IS an art project, but art projects to me should be means of communication with a proper visual language
Aesthetic experiences have to be able to be at least partly divorced from their semantic content. The thing you see is the thing you see; the thing you hear is the thing you hear. Of course it comes from somewhere, and of course it might be an attempt at communication - but it also just is the thing that it is, monolithic. Ya know?
@@d.f.4830 Hard disagree with the word "should" here. Rather i think they just are and its up to you to decide on what level you want to engage with the content
i think about the maintenance manifesto a LOT especially bc im really into mending clothes, and i've had to explain to people that while i can afford to buy new socks, i like mending my socks for reasons beyond their commodity value. anyway so i am so delighted that cj is talking about it because i think maintenance as a whole is a really powerful stance that can help reframe the objects of our lives as living participants in rituals and not inert goods whose only value is in being bought, sold, and discarded
I heard a maker talking about why making a spoon was more meaningful than buying a spoon, and I like the way they spoke about it, Mark Frauenfelder on Colbert Report as I recall, but the framing of that which always sticks in my head is Mitch Hedberg's "I bought a seven-dollar pen because I always lose pens and I got sick of not caring". You can put value into things in all sorts of ways, and surrounding yourself with things you've decided are valuable is worthwhile.
I’m fully just jumping off from your point for my own little crochet rant but I think making or mending your own clothes gives them more value than store bought ones, as someone who crochets, and has some low level sewing skills, I find myself paying more attention to clothes than I used to. When I see a jumper I think about the material it’s made from and how fast it will pill, whether it’s breathable if it will fit in with my other clothes, whether I could actually just make something I liked more on my own. I think culturally we have lost touch with the value that clothes and fabrics hold. Friends have suggested I try selling the blankets I make and are amazed when I explain how I would have to charge maybe £100 to just equal the value of the wool I used without factoring in my time or trying to make a profit. Mending things or altering them to your taste allows more room for individualism, but I also believe it connects us to the people around us, it is inherently social (often more so in an online space now) where you discuss stitches, patterns, methods and tips and when you become fluent in the language of your craft you can create new patterns new methods and contribute share them to other people. For me it connects me to my mum, I learnt from her and ask her for advice on what I’m making, what type of wool she thinks I should use, how to make something just based on an idea. It’s something I hope to pass on to my hypothetical future children.
I love your comment so much, especially your final sentence. "Maintenance re-framing objects as living participants in our lives and not inert goods whose only value is being bought, sold, and discarded." Chef's kiss 👌
Do you have advice for re-sizing clothes, mainly to make them larger? I have a gorgeous secondhand wool coat that almost touches the ground when I walk that I bought a few years ago when I was about 20 and underweight, and now that I'm 26, a healthier weight, and on testosterone, my shoulders are too big for the coat and I don't want to get rid of it but also know almost nothing about altering clothing. If you have any suggested resources on mending clothing, that would also be great. It's something I've been meaning to learn but my disabilities (physical and otherwise) have gotten in the way of learning anything but the most basic hand stitching that doesn't even follow any specific stitches or rules and is done the same way I used to sew badges onto my Scout sash
As someone who has been fluent in the language of fashion as long as I can remember, this video was a very articulative experience. I remember reading somewhere when I was quite young (like an actual child) that the way you dressed was the way people perceive you and as an autistic person who is often misunderstood that really stuck in my head. People do treat people who dress poorly worse than people who dress well, certain things can be inferred about a person based on their clothes. I think something that stumps a lot of people is thinking they have to commit to an identity forever and thus dress the same forever which hasn't been my experience at all. I used to dress like a witch because i was into witch shit and people were able to pick up on my interests and knowledge base based on that. Now I dress like a posh English (the country not the subject) professor because the colour palette suits me, the items that make up that sort of wardrobe are quality, and it's reflective of my temperament and interests (ie. fondness of knitting, antiques, long exhaustive non-fiction books, cold weather, and farmers markets - don't get me wrong I still like witch shit but it's more of a fun tidbit for people who actually know me). Just the other day a stranger correctly guessed I like the show "Time Team" based solely on how I was dressed, the same way another stranger five years ago when I used to dress like a witch correctly guessed that I knew the difference between the two major forms of satanism. TLDR: I think fashion is a useful tool in communicating who you are to other people without even speaking with them, especially for folks like me who have trouble in the social skills department. People are much less likely to think I'm rude and much more likely to think I'm shy or reserved if I'm dressed like female Giles from btvs.
I'm autistic and I relate strongly to this. The way I dress is also me sending a message to myself, almost like putting on armor, to prepare for my day and remind myself who I am or draw strength from certain accessories almost like talismans to give me courage/comfort/confidence when I feel weak and scared and isolated. Like wearing earrings that are dopamine molecules or a necklace with a serotonin molecule on days that I know will be really difficult mentally/emotionally, as if they can help provide the dopamine/serotonin that I will need to get through the day. I also try to dress alt/queer/androgynous and often wear buttons/pins that state my identity as a queer, non-binary, autistic, and disabled person who is very anti-oppression. I want others who are autistic/disabled and/or queer/trans to look at me and feel like I am safe and familiar, or "friend shaped" as the memes say. And I want neurotypical, abled, cishet people to look at me and feel somewhat confused, particularly about my gender. I don't want them (the latter group) to think I am part of their group and assume my gender is binary and that I would side with them if they discriminated against someone who isn't in their group. I don't care that it puts me at risk of discrimination, because I live somewhere that it's unlikely I will be in physical danger for being a visible minority. It's very much that quote "art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable" but applied to fashion.
I also have a few main styles that I go between: dark academia, punk/alt (general, not a specific subculture), generally queer, and outdoorsy/nature themed (mostly for if I'm gonna go for a hike or spend time in nature.) and generally most of my clothes are black or dark colours like red, purple, navy. I have some green and brown tones, but almost exclusively wear those when I'm dressed for outdoor exploration rather than social/public scenarios. So aside from my more utilitarian/natural style which has a specific purpose, my fashion always leans towards dark/alt aesthetics. Hence why my more formal style is described as dark academia, lol. Because it's stuff like suits and vests and ties, but almost entirely in shades of black, dark red, navy, burgundy, and some forest green. More like Gerard's outfits during the MCR revenge era than like something most professors would wear, and less earth tones than typical dark academia. But I do still have bow ties, suspenders, vests, leather shoes, flat caps, etc.
@@Alex-fc8xn I do something very similar with jewellery but using gemstones relating to my astrological placements/chart (ie. if I need to tap into the Aries energy in my chart I'll wear bloodstone or if I need to tap into the Libra in my chart for that day I'll wear pearls, etc.) I'm aware that astrology and crystals are not very scientific, but at the very least they are placebos that are nice to look at and decorate your body with. I would also like to think that the way I dress makes me look "friend shaped" to other literature and history nerds or at the very least people who are just really into drinking loose leaf tea.
I've watched this three times now. This is one of the most important video essays on youtube to me. I feel the need to get some new clothes, to find myself both in expression and in spirit. I want to be percieved as who I percieve myself to be, but in a way that is also legible to others around me. Thank you CJ.
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU TALKED TO HIM OMG it's wild how many gender non-conforming people I've seen resonating with a guy talking about strict suit rules (edit: wtf happened here??? 👀I was talking about Derek, obviously)
We crave rules. We crave guidance. We have no elders. We just want to do it right so people will love us and the children of the village will stop throwing garbage at us.
@@misanthrophex I don't think OP was talking about Peterson but that Twitter fashion guy (Derek?) who talks about suits and draping and such. I mean I assume so because he's the only "him" CJ actually talked to in the video.
@@kakonthebed At least you didn't immediately call for the extinction of the entire human race while lamenting how everyone else is more stupider than you. I feel bad because that's very embarrassing for them but it's also the hardest I've laughed in weeks.
@@misanthrophexbro wasn’t even talking about Peterson……..who do you think “guy taking about strict suit rules” is? Thank you for demonstrating your lack of critical thinking skills (and your melodrama)
this is so interesting bc like. I feel like I spent the entirety of my high school experience trying and failing to explain to people that I knew that the way you dressed and the choices you made about your appearance meant something, signaled something to the people around you, and that my stress over my wardrobe wasn’t so much about what other people thought of me so much as it was my ability to control what people thought of me. like I didn’t care if people thought I looked terminally online or gay or whatever - I am in fact gay and terminally online! I’m here, after all!!! but I just wanted to be in control of how and when my dress conveyed that. it’s honestly really relieving to know that I wasn’t alone in that experience, that enough people have been asking similar enough questions that it’s a topic of discussion. the hermeneutical injustice has been defeated :) (also obsessed with the wardrobe changes throughout this video. proof of concept babey!!)
This wasn't the way that I was expecting CJ to talk about Jordan Peterson, but they are clearly on a higher level of aesthetic philosophy that I aspire to reach
This video is not a higher level of aesthetic philosophy. It's just another attempt to do both Modernism, and Postmodernism simultaneously. All such attempts are doomed to failure. CJ sees that their own, previously avaunt-guard, clothing sensibilities have become mainstream and they decide that all people should follow mainstream styles. What they fail to realise is that Peterson does now what their idols were doing in their time. The criticism of these people is the same in substance as that which is presented towards Peterson in this video, that they were destroying tradition in services of their egotistical desires.
@@_xeerewow what a shallow and dismissive interpretation. Cant even explain why trying to combine useful elements from postmodernism and modernism is a doomed endeavor, just throws it out as fact These broad generalizations seem to intentionally forgo the nuances of the video. CJ clearly communicates that in order for a counter cultural or transgressive approach to fashion/art to be meaningful, it must be cultrally legible. I also dont know what you mean by their "idols" doing the same thing they criticze peterson for. If by idols you mean aesthetic inspirations like David Bowie or drag, that is absolutely *not* the same thing as Petersons heaven-and-hell suit. Those people were engaging directly with the social language of fashion and producing something that utilizes and recontextualizes the specifics of the history of dress. Drag in particular is obsessed with the history and language of fashion. That is not the same thing as the middle school level fashion that Peterson particpates in here, cynically produced by a clout shark. Comparing buying the tweet suit from a flattering, desperate-to-be-viral crypto bro to someone like Bowie is to flatten the conversation beyond recognition and far beyond utility. This is a meaningless comparison and your reasoning seems to stem from some political aesthetic preferences that you are working backwards from to justify. Gross
@@Extracredittttt Wow. What a shallow and dismissive response. And an interesting use of projection as well. I find Peterson's politics abhorrent. I think we agree on this. But you are the one who judges his clothes based on his politics. Your comment is full of allusions to the moral character of the guy who makes the suits and the people who wear the suits. It's also a bit silly to get bogged down in terms here. "Idols" is a good way to describe them, given that CJ uses the term "Gods". If anything, my choice of words was in good faith, rather than the dishonest motives you seem to attribute to it. Modernism and postmodernism cannot coexist because they are fundamentally opposed. Modernism views those who discard cultural norms as immoral. Postmodernism views them as visionary and subversive. You cannot hold both thoughts at once. When you look at the actual complaints about Peterson's dress, this cannot be more apparent. The central issue he takes with it is that it is using the language of graphic design and metaphor in the medium of clothing. The video supposes this is a perverse act done by immoral people (dancing in the ashes of culture to stroke your ego) because it violates the established norms of fashion. A Postmodern view would be that the mixing of different media is a potentially interesting endeavour. The contrast between a suit, a symbol of tradition, and Peterson's suits which reject tradition, is highly compelling. It says "I would like to express my ideas in a way you haven't seen before". The fact that his ideas are terrible adds an additional layer of comedic irony to the message. Then this video is the ultimate fulfilment of that irony. The Twitter suit is explicitly designed to piss off people who don't like Peterson, and it has succeeded so viscerally as to provoke an hour long tirade about how the suit itself, not just the ideology it represents, is the incarnation of evil. Just because Peterson is bad, doesn't mean he didn't succeed here. The Modernist view is plainly incompatible with this perspective. It supposes that we are subordinated to the traditions of the past, which work towards a higher objective standard of beauty. Thus any break with that tradition is evil. This video clearly expresses that Modernist sentiment, that breaking from tradition is bad. A Postmodernist rejects the idea of objective beauty, so there is no way sustain such a view. The most common observable trait of Postmodernism is a celebration of that which diverges from traditions and expectations, which is diametrically opposed to the thesis of this video. Most people understand logically that objective beauty does not exist, but they are unable to rectify that with their instinctive belief in it. The result is endless theories that try to skirt around the contradiction between the two ideologies. This video does that principally through meaning. It supposes that the clothes express no meaning, and are therefore objectively bad. But this is not true. The meaning of the suites is obvious. The real issue is that they express no meaning in the language of fashion, with the presupposition being that clothes should adhere to the developed language of fashion to be objectively beautiful. And there you have Modernism. It was just hidden with clever tricks. Turning "this expresses its meaning in a way I disagree with" into "this has no meaning" is a way to hide the subjectivity of what you're saying. It tries to distort the Modernist view into a Postmodernist one. But ultimately they are still incompatible, so it fails. In reality, there is no coherent critique of Peterson's suits beyond "I don't like them". They are camp, and tacky. I enjoy camp and tacky things so I like the suits. Other people do not like those things, so may not like the suits. I feel no need to obscure that fact, or to justify my preference with an objective source.
I just turned 30 this year. This video has put words to something I've been trying to understand and grapple with for like half a decade (and not just in terms of fashion). In so doing it has brought me a lot of clarity. Maybe overdramatic to call it life changing, but something definitely "clicked" while watching this. Thank you for ameliorating this little hermeneutical injustice.
YES YES THISSS! THIS WHOLE VIDEO!!! As a visibly Asian (American) woman who is not Korean/Japaness/Chinese (but Hmong) I always felt so underdressed around the female foreign exchange students from East Asia. And it was because they were dressing in the language of East Asia while I was kinda there in my hoodie and jeans. I would try to wear Asian clothing, try to wear what they wore because it looked nice on them so it should, in theory, look nice on me, but I never got it quite right. They had shape and drape, they had a language for fashion that I just didn’t understand. I love this video for putting this feeling to words!!!
You just made me understand my own issues with fashion? Like, this video has legit changed my life? In a relatively minor way, it's not something I was *super* hung-up on, but... I get it now, you gave me the framework I needed. Thank you.
The worst part is people will say it's subjective and you should dress how you want, but then if you don't dress in a way that fits with the aesthetics of the situation, group, or event, so often you're accidentally communicating something you might not have meant to communicate. And then people make comments so it's like yes dressing well is subjective but also denying societal norms is fucking cruel to people who are impacted by unintentionally going against them.
Not that going against societal/situational norms is wrong necessarily, but it sucks when its not on purpose, like you're unknowingly screaming curses in a language you don't speak and the person who speaks that language is like "words are just letters put together"
@lanew8719 this! I love breaking social norms and doing whatever strikes you as interesting, but there's a huge difference between doing that intentionally (aware of what you're communicating and being okay with that) and being completely clueless. It's not fun or expressive if you're constantly misunderstood.
@@thelazydeathgod Exactly, it's not creativity it's confusion! Standing out when you were trying to blend in can be so frustrating. Especially if you're not even sure if it's a good or a bad "standing out", people will be like "wow you have such a unique sense of style" and it's like is that a thinly veiled insult? I spent like 3 hours on instagram and tik tok trying to figure out what I was supposed to be wearing.
See, there ARE rules, but the fun part is that you are not obliged to follow them, BUT you also should be ready for consequences of your actions, the reaction of you not using the rules. It is perfectly clear, I don’t see how it is that hard to get. Not with fashion - with absolutely everything in life
I love how this is about fashion but also about language. The bit about someone else giving you vocabulary that you didn't previously have is exactly how this video makes me feel. This all makes perfect sense to me as an autistic woman. I realized during my quarter-life crisis that clothes are part of how I mask. I spent a good decade basically wearing uniforms to dictate a certain role. This is my student uniform, this is my corporate uniform, this is my classroom teacher uniform. About a year ago I quit my job and found myself basically being like... what do I look like now? And a huge part of finding my style was figuring out the social niche I felt like I fit in. For CJ it's androgynous 80s musicians, for me it was queer-coded goth girls. Not an exact social category that I perfectly fit into, but an idea I want to evoke when people look at me. It just makes sense.
UGH this video is so good. The way you lit up when you talked about finding yourself reflected in 80s glam was amazing, I want to find my 80s glam. Don't know exactly where to start but I'm actually looking forward to some gender exploration for once.
For me it started in the movies of the late 90s, something about the fashion spoke to me... just how it was simple but it had also so much "flavour". The Tv show Friends for example, all seasons had a very distinct style and one day it hit me: i want to live in that lil coffee shop... i want Phoebe Buffay to play the guitar while wearing all her fun necklaces and long skirts... i want to belong to that fun little world because mine can be very colorless and inside my head is also pretty much muted colors when my mental illnesses collide.
@@atuvera9021this is so wild bc when cj was talking about 80s glam, I was genuinely also thinking "omg that's how I felt watching friends!!" With a little more exploration into 90s indie-adjacent culture, I realized explicitly feminist and counter culture (but still muted aesthetically) icons like fiona apple and tori amos were even more my style. But friends- phoebe and rachel specifically, and Brimful of Asha playing during the scene transitions- that vibe was the kicker for me
For anyone curious, it's from a show called Smartypants! It's a show where people from the Dropout family essentially show up with a homemade PowerPoint and a 10 minute mini-lecture on a self-chosen, often weird subject. Previous subjects include "wrestling and drag are the same thing", "why birds might steal your girlfriend", and "vegetables don't exist" 🙌
I literally had no idea how to conceptualize good vs bad fashion beyond my own unguided inutition until you explained it in terns of language the way you did and it INSTANTLY made sense. Thanks
Fashion being language and outfits being expressions and sentences is a truly perfect analogy because, like language, is it contextual and participatory and constantly evolving. Different words have different uses in different contexts and often connotation is mere personal preference but you can't intelligently or authentically make that choice without understanding the connotations and meanings behind your options. Poetry isn't literal and runways are often avant-garde, less about the practical use and more about pushing the boundaries and purpose of art and creative expression, but it's also a luxury and can be difficult to parse. There are times I resort to a garbled, incoherent noise to best express my emotions and days I throw on something based on touch and feel rather than any sort of coherent purpose or intention, but I have the education, experience and sensitivity to figure out what it is I dislike about something that doesn't fit quite right or the difference between something I aesthetically admire and a thing I want to wear myself. Many people learn to mimic the language they want to learn instead of how to develop the vocabulary to understand others and express themselves. I have a flitting and inconsistent understanding of a dozen contexts I am not fluent in, passingly familiar with cultures and histories and fashions and it is DAMNED DIFFICULT to explain my frustrations when realizing my bf doesn't even know which underwear strain against his jeans and embarrass him or why his book has implications he didn't intend via uniforms and aristocratic dress
This was a beautiful summary of fashion ideology. It has inspired me to both consider my own self expression and self knowledge, and to read more about fashion philosophy and art philosophy. Gotta rewatch your subjectivity/objectivity in art videos. Your work is excellent, thank you.
Things CJ says make me feel like I’m not a real artist sometimes. Like I’m not literate enough in artistic meaning in the same way they’re talking about fashion language? Drawing and making stories is something I do so innately but I’ve been so isolated societally and socially that I can’t exactly do the communication part of the art I guess, or I just have such a hard time applying all these like… philosophical frameworks to me and my pretty anime boys. Anyone see that ogre meme where he’s crying about not being able to read deep meaning in ulysses? It feels like that.
aw man, sorry you feel that way. i get that orc reading ulysses feeling sometimes too :(. but if you're making art you're a real artist!! and if people --even your future self tbh-- are seeing your art, then you're communicating something to them! you're communicating that you like pretty anime boys and (i'm speculating here) you're communicating how you imagine those boys feel about and relate to each other, themselves, and their world. which can be some deep and philosophical shit! & also this fashion framework doesn't fit 1:1 with other kinds of art, IMO.
Literacy in social meaning as a part of art is something you can only gain with time and experience, I assume your young from what you said about being socially isolated, but even if you aren’t maybe my point can still apply. Your art has value because people care about it, there are loads of people who love pretty anime boys and sharing your art with those people even if through an online community will only enrich it. Other people will take value from it and give advice in technique, composition, style and from that and seeing what other people create can add value. You are a real artist simply by doing the act of creating art and caring about what you make. Alternatively if you want to learn more about your discipline then learn, take a class online in human figures, you will probably suck for a bit but you’ll get the hang of it and you’ll take the skills you learned from an expert about how people work and apply it to your specific style. You don’t have to do this but often understanding artistic foundations like colour theory and form help with different styles of expression. I guess my main point is to engage with what you’re interested in, share your work with other people and get feedback. Look at what other people create and give feedback because that is what art is about, pay attention and apply what you learn. Just try not to worry about what is considered “real art made by an artist” and focus instead on what is interesting art, valuable art to your experience and other peoples. Your art doesn’t have to say anything deep or meaningful other than this is what I care about and I want to share it.
I hope I'm not overstepping here, but your comment speaks to my past experience and so I'm kind of compelled to offer some advice. I'm not going to tell you whether or not you're a Real Artist; I don't know your art, and I don't know whether it is successfully communicating with others the way that you want. But if you're worried about your ability to "read" and "write" in whatever your medium of choice, here are some tips for gaining that artistic literacy that you currently feel you lack: 1- Listen to how other people analyze. Look at art history and philosophy books in your library. If the first one you pick up doesn't make sense to you, write down who they're referencing and go read that first. Relatedly, creators talking about their own creative process (Director's commentary tracks, Scott McCloud's whole bibliography but esp Understanding Comics). Video essays can also be great for this; personally, I'm a writer and an illustrator, but when I was going through this process years ago I found a lot of benefit from Every Frame A Painting and Lindsay Ellis' old Phantom of the Opera video talking about cinematographic language. Just like any other language, you will pick up the vocabulary and nuance through immersion, and many concepts translate across mediums even if they are expressed differently. And when you listen to these analyses, stop sometimes and ask yourself: do I agree? Do I disagree? Do I mostly agree but have quibbles? Why? If I was talking to this analyst face to face, what would I say to them to convey this? (edit to add: And don't assume they must know better because they're "an expert". You're trying to join in a conversation, not absorb a lecture.) 2- Ingest new art. You like anime? Try out other genres, see if anything about their aesthetics or their storylines speaks to you (modern shounen vs modern shoujo vs what those genres were doing in the 80s are all very different). Conversely, what do you DISlike in them? If there's a genre you hate, what is it about works in that genre that repulses you? Is there anything good in there that you might want to wash off and bring back to your own work? Take a look at other Japanese media; do you notice when these pieces of media start referencing each other, or when themes start reappearing in the different stories? Dip your toes into American or European comics. Old silent movies. Listen to the album for a sung-through musical. Enjoy it or don't, and see if anything in it sparked thoughts or ideas that you want to play with. Do a wiki dive on an artist or a genre or an artistic movement to find new pieces to look at. See if your library has any books full of pictures of sculptures or paintings that you can't otherwise go see. Rinse, repeat. 3- Critically re-examine old favorites. When you land on a line or a shot or a scene that really speaks to you, stop a moment and look at the structure of it. What did the artist do to craft this moment? Their word choice, their framing, etc. Why does it work? Are there techniques you'd like to try using in your own art? If there's something that's always bugged you or never worked for you, what are you not liking about it? Is it just the execution, or the entire premise? How would you have done it differently? 4- Find the meaning. All art communicates something, even if (especially if) the artist does not think they're doing so. Pick a media that speaks to you, or that you absolutely can't stand. What is it trying to say? Through explicit text, or through subtext. Is the explicitly stated moral of the story at odds with the characters' actions and fates? Did the artist mean to convey this message, or did they mess up their execution, or did their own biases permeate a piece of art that wasn't meant to be about those biases at all? 5- Lastly, being An Artist is about two things: communication, and practice. Are you making art? (Sounds like it.) Are you striving to improve your art? (Again, sounds like it).) Are you communicating something in your art? (You are, even if subconsciously.) Then you are an artist. You may be a BAD artist, I wouldn't know, but improving is always possible even for very very good artists. When you have a story idea, run with it, explore it, and then pause to look at your own art with a critical eye. Become conscious of the message you're conveying. Are some themes jumping out at you as you sketch out this idea? Do you want to lean into them, or do they go against what you want? Does some other piece of art you liked resonate with the thing you're doing? Do you want to reference that other piece of art, so that your audience may feel the same resonance? Is your story a rejection of some other story that you found repugnant, your own new take that says "that was wrong, and here's how it should be"? And you do the art, and it turns out as well as you're capable of making it at the time, and then you move on to the next piece having learned something from the last. Best wishes to you in your endeavors.
Don't worry, it takes time :) CJ has been thinking and reading about subjectivity in art for two years straight. What's really cool is that they put TWO YEARS of thinking into an hour very eloquently, and we've just absorbed all that. So now it's like WE have been reading about this topic for a month straight. Also pretty anime boys are life instinct, never regret them
Most artists aren't literate in aesthetic philosophy. Aesthetic philosophy is more descriptive of what artists do than it is prescriptive of what artists should do. Make your pretty anime boys and do it in interesting in unique ways. And if you're lucky you'll make your anime boys so pretty that aesthetic philosophy will have to catch up to YOU not the other way around
Ok, so the main thing I remember about Jordan Peterson is that he's weird with trans people, and he likes lobsters. So when I saw the two-toned suit at 11:11, my mind IMMEDIATELY went to the split color lobsters who tend to be hermaphrodites. Coincidence? Probably.
@@joyeetaghosh2209 I think you replied to the wrong comment? Unless you're implying that Jordan Peterson is a lesbian or lgb, which I'd be interested to hear more about 🤔
Honestly after watching this the biggest thing I started to wonder was what CJ’s take would be on Hank Green’s song T-Shirt and Jeans, a song in which he champions the titular outfit specifically for its ability to obfuscate identity, as well as its ability to postpone the moment where one must finalize a subculture and corresponding fashion style for themself
It feels like CJ had too small of a sample size. Jordan Peterson is someone we all disagree with, and his suits are crafted with his ideology woven in. But if someone I liked was doing stuff like this? I’d love it. I already love Peterson’s outfits, even though I don’t like him. If CJ had an outfit with his hate comments all over it, no one would question it. If I was a RUclipsr or celebrity, I would absolutely do that. I think CJ is wrong about this one. First time we’ve disagreed.
No, I would definitely still question it. I would think that was so petty and beneath anyone to do, but ESPECIALLY CJ, the youtuber known for telling even their fans to get bent and stop believing they care what you think about them.
to add to your point with an anecdote: I have a friend who is a delightful human being, kind, loyal, fun to be around. always dresses in basics from middle class brands like tommy hilfiger, you would **not** see her wearing a color or a cut. and I find it infuriating, because why are you as a young energetic person choose to look like a down to earth small business owner on a casual friday
I completely forgot about this song! What a throwback. It seems to me like Hank disagrees with the fundamental starting point of this video's argument, which is: "Signaling what community you belong to (through dressing correctly like the elites in that community) is good!" I'm not sure if much discussion can proceed from there, with Hanks answer essentially being, "No that's bad actually, I prefer if people don't make assumptions about what community I belong to based on my clothing." An agree to disagree kinda situation methinks. (Kinda unrelated but I disagree with Hank's statement that the goofy graphic tees he wears in the video's don't say much about him. They very clearly signal the identity of a lovable nerd to me)
@@magicgirliy see I agree with your last paragraph actually! Graphic tees absolutely communicate at least the beginnings of a subculture, that being nerd/normie. Great point!
this video reached into the structure of my understanding to my own relationship to fashion, art-making, and community, and dug out pieces that I had never noticed before, but that had been deeply influencing the way i interact with all of those aspects of my life. holy shit. the parts about art/fashion as connection, and the over-prevalence of "art is subjective", and the need for community -- genuinely unlocked the way i think about these things. thank you so much!! your essays are brilliant.
Listening to CJ is like listening to a wise mortal oracle, I’m learning about concepts I thought was outside my comprehension but their logic is indisputable and I’m high
In the subculture i’m part of (biker) the fashion is easy - jeans, chucks, Dixxon flannel in club colors… I might not be the target audience for CJ I’m realizing. Doesn’t stop me from watching every video CJ puts out.
43:07 this sentiment and the whole IV section is great. reminds me of when JID said he doesn't listen to lyrical miracle type rappers even though he's aware he kinda occupies that same space
I had to stop 15 minutes in to write a comment. I couldn't bring myself to watch this right away. I know how long it might be between videos so I wanted to squirrel this one away but only made it 2 weeks. I finally sat down to watch this and, man, the way you speak tickles my brain in the exact best way. "Historical crash course on the emergence of industrial capitalism" is the type of conversation I want to have in my day-to-day life but I bore people to tears when I try. These videos are cathartic for my ADHD, lit-loving, deep-diving brain. I wish I had a CJ in my life. Thank you for making such entertaining and informative content!!
Loved this whole thing. My immediate thought when discussing the ways that people don't have the social groups or categories that tell them how to dress anymore was how Gen Z is still looking for those codes and norms through particular aesthetics on social media (cottagecore, dark academia, whimsy goth, trad, etc) and honestly it does give me more understanding for those aesthetics as "language" to essentially convey your standing within the world. On a slightly different note, I've been experimenting pretty drastically with my clothing choices this year and I realized looking back how much my teen years were defined by wearing t-shirts with my favorite pop culture artifacts on them, essentially turning me into a walking billboard. It dawned on me that I'd been defining my identity and self-worth by proxy to external "things I liked/enjoyed" rather than anything internal. Obviously we always exist in relationship to something external to us and identity will never be fully internal, but I think the practice of wearing clothes that just make me feel good or confident or aesthetically beautiful has allowed me to have a greater sense of self-worth rather than attributing that self-conception completely to outside sources of appreciated culture.
I once was in the street with two wicked Charlie horses, one per leg, rolling around in the mud in severe agony as a caravan of mad max style 18 wheelers with spiked tires approached at above speed limit velocity. CJ the X gave a riveting speech on the mind body problem and the land before time and it gave me the strength to give up. Now I don't have to work a full time job as I have no arms legs or soul. Thank you CJ!
when you said "my right to say whatever I want is worthless if I don't know the language" really hit home for me what my girlfriend is dealing with. she's trans, AND plus-sized, and those come with their own specific aesthetic "language", one that I already had a lifetime to learn, growing up as a big girl. and unfortunately I do the same thing your friends did - say that she can dress how she wants, there's no wrong answers, etc etc. i finally fully understand now why that never seemed to satisfy her, and hopefully in the future i'll be a lot more helpful as she tries to figure out what looks best on her. so...thanks for this video? it ended up being a lot more helpful than I thought
"Uncontrollably socially disruptive out of loyalty to my own perception" Iv never had a sentence describe my day to day life so accurately. Bravo and Thank you
This was so personally satisfying to watch. My favorite video essays are those expressing thoughts and ideas I’ve long held but didn’t have the words to express. Thank you for introducing me to these artists/writers/philosophers. (And thank you for not making the obligatory JBP video lol)
I don't disagree with the premise that fashion is a social signifier but I don't agree with the notion that skinny suits are bad in and of themselves. When you showed RDJ he actually pulled them off to me. The main reason Conner looks so bad in them is to do with his body shape being wider relative to his height so he ends up looking like the Michelin Man. I think it's funny you mention hermeneutical injustice but didn't consider maybe JP's suits have an inarticulable meaning society actually agrees on. I mean the fact you say they're not distinct social signifiers but then state how many people (including myself) instantly thought of a batman villain. Clearly this suit has a somewhat ubiquitous meaning to people who have some knowledge of batman, providing them a way to articulate how it presents. Now what batman villain actually means socially may be hard to pin down but you can't watch that video where he goes on about "woke moralist we'll see who cancels who" and tell me he didn't dress perfectly for how he wants to come off. I think it's kinda uppity when that derek guy calims these people are not speaking the language of fashion to his understanding and therefore are not communicating correctly. If you didn't know spanish was a language you would think someone saying embarazada is slightly off of trying to mean embarassed when they are actually saying something entirely different. Now I'm not necessarily vouching for Ron Desantis's fashion choices but maybe he's communicating something entirely different that appears to not quite signify what derek reads as the business men of old. Both RDJ and Conner are definitely not going for that when they wear a suit, I mean surely RDJ wearing trainers gives that away. Overall I liked the discussion but felt like it was very one track minded. I am a loser, thanks for reading.
he's not saying that the dress isn't intentional. he's saying that past generations had a much more elaborate vocabulary for suit tailoring that's all been lost because nobody other than guys like him give a shit anymore, and the only thing we're left with is pop culture symbolism.
@@leah_h._ Well I'm not saying it is intentional on the wearers' part just that it likely does convey some sort of social meaning/messaging, just one that is not as established as the ones he references like 1920s businessman. I would say he kinda emphasises the opposite of what you're saying in that it was easier to pick an outfit and there was a 'right way' to make a suit as there was a simpler vocabulary at the time. Now he thinks the vocabulary has broadened or become confused to a point where people use fashion in a meaningless manner and neglect to communicate anything socially defining through it. Can't speak to actual tailoring techniques if that is what you are referring to but don't think the video really explores that.
when Derek talks about suits he is pretty much just talking about tailoring. the vocabulary for men's fashion as a whole is much broader and but most of the context for suits has been lost compared to when it was one of the only ways men could express themselves.
Right! "tell me he didn't dress perfectly for how he wants to come off" - right! They dress completely appropriately for the cultural group of rich internet assoles and crypto bros, that is what they are. I think that is totally legible. Even, it would not be appropriate for JP to dress like a tired collage professor, because that is not what he is anymore.
i would even go so far as to say that the lack of a distinct message is a message within itself - most likely not the message that the clothing wearer intended, but ideas the audience picks up on regardless
I think this video has advanced my theraphy in like 4 years. Thank you CJ for putting the words in the right order and finally realising this idea and feeling I have also been feeling for all my life.
"I never struggled with being shoved into a box-y category that limited my choice and self expression" okay okay okay. as an elder millennial who was born in the very early 80s, DO YOU KNOW HOW FUCKING HAPPY THIS MAKES ME? that is WINNING. I am so relieved and so proud the world can give this gift, at least sometimes, to some people. the process of building a self and reaching for a community is still harder than it should be. the floor is still tilted, which sucks. but there are a lot of metaphorical lead weights that used to get attached to young people's feet while confronting that struggle. and some of those weights have been lifted. and behold your results. BEHOLD THEM. I am reminded again and again why it always gives me such hope and ebullience to visit this channel and see what work you have wrought. whatever it is.
as a fashion design student THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO!!!! i cannot express how much i adore your takes and commentary on this subject that i love and respect dearly. and shoutout to derek too he's truly great
as a fellow gen z bpd traumaqueer artist i find it very interesting how, despite deeply feeling a fair chunk of the shit ur putting out there this is something we've had such wildly different experiences with. i've def chosen my god and/or it's chosen me, used to be a loner nerd but somewhere in middle-high-school i started making good fashion choices and there hasn't been a decision i've taken back since then. the only thing holding me back at this point is my inability to tailor(and my so far limited ability to shape my own body). def lots of things i do have the skill to shape also and design of our bodies/environment is definitely a core part of why i'm here and at the core of my body of work so far. Kinda feeling like you're denying the very readable messages petersons suits send. yes, they're ugly and they don't say professor, but peterson isn't a professor anymore. just a fascist enabling dickhead who does more of his own supply than he can handle, and in the context of him being a public figure anyone who would understand the type of person he is already knows enough to read his suit as exactly that. similar story with the tight fitting suits imo, yes they too are ugly, yes they don't make sense under established norms but given there's so many people doing that, through that process it's at least become an intelligible word if maybe not a proper sentence.
@@aerispalm6523 I think it’s different bc like. their intent in wearing the suits was not to communicate that. the intent was to use the language of fashion to communicate status and taste - they are wearing them bc they think it makes them look more professional and high status, and they are failing to speak the language of suits articulately enough to communicate that. their failure to communicate DOES tell us about who they are, in the same way that seeing someone yell incoherently on the subway tells you something about who they are, but that doesn’t mean either of them really successfully communicating
I think there is something to be said for fashion as a language changing and developing to include the tight fitted suits as a new phrase within it but like. many of these people are intentionally trying to use the long standing language of suits to try and be seen as someone with Taste(TM). they aren’t trying to express themselves, they’re trying to tap into a preexisting language and the prestige that comes with it, and they’re often failing in doing so
“Jordan, you’re letting this tasteless, wormtongue temptress beguile you into dancing on the grave of your ancestors because you’re so weak to flattery!” Amazing, and made even more amazing when you’ve slowed CJ down to 0.25x speed to transcribe this with your little texty fingers. (And by using “amazing” to describe CJ at 0.25x speed, I do mean nightmarish / surreal. Our internet cult leader cannot be limited to just one word per second! This cannot be!)
As a lover of the linguistics of fashion and what it says about the wearer and the culture of the time period and a lover of CJ and the X's philosophical rants, I think this is my most favorite video of theirs yet :D
I love the point we reach in almost every CJ the X video where I feel like the point has been made but in looking at the time still left of the video realize I have just skimmed the surface. I have been taught the language or a first important bit of "thought". I have been entertained the whole way. Now we go deeper for another hour... Great! 🥰
No this is a very valid and interesting way of interpreting the video and applying it to your life, tho. Using this to design characters is actually genius
i love that we're talking about fashion today. a lot of people think that fashion is abstract and stupid, but we wear clothes everyday! fashion is a huge part of everyone's life
you know, it’s a strange feeling to see derek guy, the owner of a blog i’ve been reading for over a decade, suddenly rocket to this level of recognition.
So it’s really all about finding out what you give and then serving that
Exactly.
@@imightbetilee5342 amazing summary
ya
But what if what you are giving is bad? What if people say you look like Ron? Are you supposed to just then going on trying to bring the idea of Ron to people? And do you have to actually adopt the ideas around the fashion? Maybe this is just because this is my first watch of the video but I felt a little confused as to what one is "supposed to do" still.
Bars
this is not the Jordan Peterson video this is something else
Turn the volume up, it's fine
I’m glad i read this at the end of the video bc i was, indeed, waiting the entire video for this to somehow morph into a jordan peterson deep dive lol.
Tbf i do also suspect that the actual vid is gonna be massive. An hour did not seem right
I need that chunky white cardigan
i knew
alright, that makes more sense, had me panicked there for a second.
on a *tuesday* of all days.
(i’m aware that i commented this before, but it was _funny_ and i shan’t permit such humor to go to waste)
Great video. Really inspired to get some custom suits made which have a clear and deliberate ideological message.
So cool seeing you here, you're a video essay OG!
It has been my dream for a while to just get the most killer suit made for a few years now. It came mostly from thinking that "the Rainbow Mafia" actually just sounds frickin' awesome.
My maternal grandma had this beige coat. She looked stylish in it. She had pathos.
My mother tried it on and she aged forty years, like she was cosplaying a little old lady.
My dad tried it on and he looked like a mad scientist.
I tried it on and I looked like a gumshoe on a difficult case.
This is what I know about fashion.
Coats have powerful magic and must not be trifled with.
Did I have a stroke? Is "gum shoe on a difficult case" supposed to mean something?
@@appa609 Gumshoe is slang for a detective, usually 1940s noir.
@@appa609 'Gumshoe' is an old slang word meaning 'private detective' :)
This helped me solidify why I just dress like a normal lady even though I love interesting weird clothes. I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking I'm interesting or weird
I dress like a 40-year old lawyer mom because i don't want other people to be confused about my role.
I'm the opposite, I WANT to be seen as interesting and weird and not normal. Because I'm non-binary and disabled and neurodivergent (AuDHD + mental illness) and I want other queer and disabled/neurodivergent/marginalized people to see me and know that I'm safe because I'm not part of the group that historically and in an ongoing fashion has oppressed them and made them feel unsafe and unwelcome.
I've thought this way long before seeing this video. I usually described my ideal gender presentation as one that confuses cisgender people who want to categorize me as male or female, and feels familiar and identifiable to fellow queers.
Of course being visibly marginalized comes with risks, and I technically could present in a way that betrays my identity but conforms to what is expected socially as long as my health is good enough that day to not need a mobility aid (cane, forearm crutches, walker with wheels and a seat. I don't own a wheelchair.) But luckily I do live in a part of Canada where it is relatively safe to stand out the way I do. I get some discrimination for sure, but I'm rarely in physical danger like I would be in less progressive parts of the world.
@@Alex-fc8xn Same!!
It's funny because I used to have like a double life type wardrobe. Basic af vs extravaganza complete with fantastical makeup and shoes. Kinda a daytime/nighttime thing because I was active in the "spiritual" corner of the club/rave/party scene where I felt I could express a certain creativity. And during the normal days I wanted to be comfortable, practical and somewhat anonymous
That makes you interesting actually.
CJ the X not liking Bowie is so funny that I’m going to make an essay about it.
I would love to read this essay
It's like finding out Mitch McConnell hates turtles.
@@c.j.hellwig7142I never ever (ever) comment on RUclips. You made me laugh out loud and I am smiling. Bravo.
spirit of competition
like you wouldnt assume it, in fact youd assume the opposite. also hi professor i didnt think youd be here but CJ likes hip hop you have that privileged knowledge in common!
the heaven and hell suit looks like what Todoroki would wear to prom in a fanfiction
yea ok I cried a lil bit
You are so unbelievably real for that and he'd eat it up because then it'd be relevant to the social setting whilst still being expressive for the person
I don't even go here but this is so accurate omg
My life is forever changed by this comment
Screenshotting this. It’s beautiful. I’m going to write a fanfic based on this.
23:05 “Dress is not an art project. It’s language, and you’re babbling incoherently.”
You ate me tf up with that line. Ooof
This video reinforced that my slightly incoherent style mixed with the compliments I get for “dressing well” does actually serve to communicate that I am embracing a more absurdist philosophy.
@@micahwright5901 Does it communicate that though? This video is giving me a lot to think about in terms of what I’m actually communicating & want to communicate & what dress is capable of communicating.
I don’t think dress can communicate that you’re embracing an absurdist philosophy - just like it couldn’t communicate CJ’s rap/tumblr/raised online philosophies. But musician was close enough to be accepted by society as something not dangerous or insane & also broad enough to allow for his unique artistic expression to be acceptable within it. Dress can communicate something, but it seems only something broad and immediately recognizable.
If I’m interested in 7 different things, I may have to choose the most beneficial and comfortable aesthetic to navigate the world in for my day to day wardrobe - or not. And choose niche fits for niche events and gatherings, etc. But either way, I don’t think clothes can get nuanced enough to speak to your entire personality and philosophies - I think you have to pick which aspects of your personality and which philosophies you want to be perceived as.
@@JellieJoShmothat last sentence is what so often had (and, to some degree, still has) me sitting in front of my closet with every bit of clothing I own on the floor around me, near tears because nothing is communicating me how I want. I'm now an old, and I still struggle? The ADHD and the functionally useless too-smartness (inconsistently sanded down by years of heavy drug use) doesn't help, but JFC this video ❤️🔥
@@moxiebombshell Right?! This video has given me so much to think about.
Also, I think I should’ve added “at first glance” at the very end of my comment.
Because this is all about first impressions/perception upon first glance - if you follow the rules of a particular immediately recognizable niche, then most people will know how to place you and accept you as a member of society without ever exchanging a word. If we’re too unique in our dress society will treat us like they don’t know what to do with us - which is the feeling we’re trying to avoid with coherent dress, right? We want to be consistently accepted by society while also being our authentic selves.
And of course, those who get past the first glances will get to know the nuanced version of us.
me too! babbling incoherently, or just speaking in a language some might not understand??? my message does not have to be understood by every person. have confidence !! :)
What a fucking masterclass. Thank you. As a trans man, the pain of not being able to make much sense _until you figure out how you do_ is so closely linked to community, appearance and thereby dress. This made me so hopeful that in all the babbling that I will not stop attempting I will soon have my first words
Felt this viscerally. I never felt like I was part of the world or like I had any sense of style\* until I transitioned and now I'm living as a dude, not just any dude but one of those nerdy long-haired bearded guys who's into metal and fantasy and stuff like that. It's nice to be part of something and to embody it in my own way
\* or more accurately I had a vague sense of what my style was but absolutely no idea how to embody it, it's because I didn't know I was a dude. Trying to style myself without knowing who I was was like trying to build a house without a foundation
I relate so much to the "not knowing the language of fashion" issue. In my first year of university, a friend who later became a seamstress taught me how to dress. We were both metalheads, but she looked amazing and I didn't. She didn't tell me what to wear, but rather HOW to wear different things; what fits, what communicates, where I can get inspo from. I started liking myself so much more after that, and I didn't dress like my friend at all, I just, liked, grew a fashion conscience. My own. I have no idea how that happened.
Any standout advice that she gave you? I've been trying to understand the language of fashion and I'm finding it difficult.
@@matthewsoza I am no expert, but here's some stuff that helped me (I have a belly and big thighs, but I'm otherwise "average" sized).
Think about the materials of your clothes and how they interact with your body and each other: things that flow and fall are good, actually! and you can combine those with tighter fits - tight jeans with an oversized hoodie or cardigan and t-shirt for me. Think about your silhouette as a whole: adding bulky shoes to this one gives it more balance, adding slim shoes makes you focus more on the top part instead.
Don't be afraid to experiment. Nobody is going to ridicule you or even say anything to you anyways. Try new colours from time to time and see how you feel. Curious about jewelry? Get a cool chain or ring. Give it a shot.
Most importantly: stay comfy. Wear what makes you happy. If your clothes don't make you feel anything, find some that do. I am a sucker for graphic tees and I wear black every day; that's fine! I'm going for a chill hipstery metal vibe. We all have our own style, just need to slowly grow into it.
I've always adored that stupid heaven or hell suit and I think its specifically because it makes him look like a comic book villain. It communicates this vapid self involved antagonism that's so fascinating to see off the page where it belongs. He monologues nonsensically like he's about to use a giant stolen diamond as a focus in order to summon the twin dragons of chaos and order. In another world where the stakes were lower and his words couldnt cause me harm I'd find it charming to see a cartoon man who says cartoon things dress appropriately for his job as a cartoon
I think his fashion is finally in alignment with his self and what more can a hyper-individualist prepostmodern libertaripublican tertiary anti-villain wish for?
Your comment merits more likes than I can offer, so I'll just try to point out how "vapid, self-involved antagonism" is a hermetically perfect phrase for this context
like oh my gosh that caught me like a fishhook
Forreal, he's dressing like a weird Christian Two-Face and it's like "yeah, Jo, that's who you are now, I guess"
@@inoapostate9495 Thank you for teaching me a couple words. Me like word.
He even has the backstory of a cartoon villain, specifically due to being ostracized and delegitimized by his academic peers following a dive into extremism and points that drastically differ from the accepted beliefs of his field.
Except instead of being a botanist who thinks plants should rule the world or a geneticist who wants to turn people into lizards, he’s a Canadian psychologist who is in danger of having his doctorate revoked if he doesn’t stop spouting inflammatory and inaccurate statements about transgender people on his wide reaching and major social media platforms. And instead of his punishment being jail time or a psychiatric ward stay, he’s being subjected to “media training”.
so many people used to tell me i looked like a celebrity and i realised they just didnt personally know other queer people
Reminds me of how growing up in rural germany my only reference for black people was stars like Rihanna, sure was interesting to learn about black history in america later
Oh same, being called „an artist” because of not having any other descriptor for my „otherness”
Wait a minute when you get the complement that you look like celebrity what is the connection with them not knowing enough queer people will you mind if I ask you to explain
Is that what that is? And do they mean a specific celebrity?
@@og-prettypretty obvious from the comment that they dont.
weirdly, i think complete freedom has made people more self-conscious about their dress. like, the number of times i've had friends text the gc pics of their outfits before we hang out asking for opinions as if the ppl in the gc are not the exact same people that they're going shopping/clubbing/etc. with. the guidelines have disappeared but the judgement hasn't, and that just makes everyone more confused
That's a really eloquent and succinct way of saying it
My fav approach is pick some stuff I like and tank the judgement. White sneakers, black or khaki jeans, and roll some dice for the top.
Yeah like the standards upon which we are being judged are going to be different everywhere. If I wear my emo clothes people who were into MCR in the 2000s (my peers) are seeing something completely different to people who got into alt/emo fashion in 2020. The conclusions they come to about me are going to be completely different and it's impossible to factor in all those different reactions to properly craft the message you want to send with your outfit
Good point. As sort of a microcosm of the larger point I offer this anecdote: When I was a kid my middle school required uniforms but once in awhile they would have dress down days where you could wear whatever you wanted. However the social expectation, especially among girls, was not to come in wearing whatever but rather to have the hippest and most fashionable casual outfits. In the same way if you were a millionaire businessman in 1924 you pretty much have a uniform to wear. In 2024 not so much.
uh, if the crowd-pleasing expectations set by the old guidelines are still there, i dont think that's "complete freedom"
Putting a clip of JP saying "it's antisocial, your clothes aren't exactly for you" next to the picture of the exact suit that he is wearing when saying that and the message matching exactly what you are saying is amazing and poetic.
watched this video last week and then went out with some friends. i was initially embarrassed to realize several of us were wearing variations of the same outfit and then i was like wait. no. this makes sense. we belong together.
Comfy hoodie gang?
"I didn't feel special, I just felt alone." That is so real. Thank you. Can you please just spout thoughts at me every day forever and make me feel a little validated and a little less alone?
What of Francis Ford copolla did the Alexa thing but instead of Caesar answering your questions it's CJ
Go outside
I felt the same way.
Ironically, he gave me words for something I always knew but didn't know how to express.
For many, many years now I have felt very guilty about being uncomfortable around people who dress extremely loud and attention-grabbing but otherwise fit in great with mainstream society in terms of their views on life, the way they move, the way they think, the absence of death energy as it were. It almost feels like a bit of a betrayal, when you're talking to someone who serves specialness but only gives normalcy. And I think a large part of that was a feeling of "why would anyone willingly invite the very thing I'm trying to break free from? Why are you signaling that you are different and apart from others when you're so obviously not, especially in a world where being different is dangerous and alienating? It's terrible being treated as different. Why do you invite it?"
Me in my camouflage looking for connection could not wrap my head around that. Still can't completely, if I'm honest. Fitting into the world naturally is such a blessing. Why reject it? Why reject connection and acceptance? Is being special and apart so precious to you that you're willing to sacrifice all the blessings of community? Why? This video goes some way into reframing that for me.
Also CJ can't make you feel less alone. They're not real, they live in your computer. As far as you know they're pixels and soundwaves. I guarantee you there's someone in your area code who can do the same thing but better, because they can also give hugs and hear what you're saying and tell you when there's toilet paper stuck to the bottom of your shoe.
I mean that's basically the point of a RUclips channel
The number of times “a little bit of rules, structure, and restriction can be good, actually” has come up recently as solid advice for a part of my life is surprisingly high.
“Do whatever you want, but do it right” is pretty decent as a motto
A little bit of rules, structure, and restriction are necessary for freedom, I feel. I had to take this class in college where you finished the course with a 'creative reflection' where you could do anything you wanted. I was a year late turning it in because I didn't know what to do. If they had said: 'make a painting/poem/whatever' I would've had a million ideas instantly.
When one begins to meditate on what it means to do something rightly. All of sudden, it becomes clear that there are quite a number of ways to do something wrongly.
Almost as if structure imposes itself on the world in relationship to the goal.
I just had a hermeneutical injustice moment with the phrase hermeneutical injustice. I'm autistic and frequently struggle with expressing what I'm feeling or experiencing and constantly feel trapped in my own brain because of it, because there isn't a word for "my pocket caught on a doorknob while someone was talking too loud so now I want to kms" or "you made a facial expression I don't know and now I'm panicking" so I just have to like. be in it, by myself. and now I know at least there's a phrase for when I'm trapped by myself in an experience
oh god yeah, same. been my school's main scapegoat for bullies and never knew why for decades, until I learned about my neurodivergence. honestly, I feel like some societal structures depend on hermeneutical injustice in order to even exist. because like, what do you do with bullies if they don't have their scapegoat? just let them bully everyone? and how do you keep up patriarchy when women start sharing their harassment stories with each other? and what if neurodivergent people aren't just some singular freaks, but a whole another neurotype? will they have to treat us seriously and with dignity now? it's convenient for people in power and systems to keep us separated, undereducated and silent.
YEP
I'm here with you 💜
Same lol
They need to make these words easier.
As someone who studied fashion history and has created actual historical garments seeing someone finally bring these things that I love to light is amazing. Drape, weight, silhouette, and texture are things we are taught to look for especially when creating historical garments. I have created and seen other student create these Victorian and Georgian garments and they are heavy, they have body to them, that is not something I see in the modern tight fitting suits nowadays. A suit should have at least four layers in the body; top fabric, stayflex (or any other fabric stiffener), bump, and lining, and extra padding if needed. You just don’t see that now, modern suits look like they have at most three layers. In our need to make everything cheeper and faster we have taken away all the small thing that make a suit a suit. Instead of a proper reduced sauce you have a burnt crusty mess. The suits have crust on them.
I think we've been having a lowkey arts and crafts movement revival since at least the late 2010s and I'm delighted we're finally starting to talk about it out loud
I liked JP's suits at first glance on the basis of the fact that most men's suits are like today's cars- utilitarian, slightly-altered versions of each other. To me, Peterson's suits at least had color, a personal touch. And this is despite the fact that I deeply dislike Peterson's politics.
Knowing the pettiness behind these clothes ruined them for me, because if as an artist or an "intellectual" you choose to go hard on one of your principles, they better be solid ones, not just "fuck the haters".
Same. The suits kinda came across as campy and queer, which appeals to me instinctively. But learning the background of how they were made make me feel erghehge🤮
Yeah like ngl I like a couple of the suits themselves aesthetically, but the making process screams of someone who hasn’t touched grass in a century
This is a big criticism of a lot of avant garde art for me. I love the language of avant garde performance, visual art, music, etc. But you can’t just keep making the same point that anything can be considered art when that is entirely agreed upon in the circles you’re trying to appeal to. The art has to mean something apart from that as well. It has to invoke something that the audience can connect too. IMO the best avant garde art has to offer is when a concept or concepts grounded in a tradition are stretched in absurd and extreme ways to the point of conveying an entirely new feeling that’s still connected to the original context.
@@ca44444 why dont you figure out how every item you use daily is made and then think about the hypocrisy of your statements
@late8138 What are you even trying to convey with this? Hypocrisy how? Are you saying that it's hypocritical to like the first-glance aesthetics of Jordan Peterson's suits, or that it's hypocrisy to feel that the intent/meaning is shallow?
"I didn't feel special; I just felt alone" is a reparation to a hermeneutical injustice I've only just been realizing I've experienced in the past year or two. My cultural psychology class this term naturally compares individualist vs collectivist cultures a lot which has left me with a lot of complicated feelings when considering what I want society to look like and this video has given me the means to articulate my simultaneous dissatisfaction with restrictive cultural hegemonies that Western culture used to look more like and the total abandonment of cultural meaning that we have now. I want the freedom to form and be a part of cultural groups without fear of social punishment from the monoculture that the elite construct, not the freedom to form a bubble around myself for the sake of individualistic pursuits and become alienated from those around me
"I want the freedom to form and be a part of cultural groups without fear of social punishment from the monoculture that the elite construct, not the freedom to form a bubble around myself for the sake of individualistic pursuits and become alienated from those around me"
glad i read this because it made me understand what CJ was saying in the credits of the video. at least i think it does. Like i want the freedom to communicate with who I want to and how i want to with out being shamed out of it. i don't want to communicate only with myself. I just want to be able to do that communication online instead.
fucking real
as an autistic girl i relate to chapter IV on a deeply personal level with most things in my life. I'm babbling trying to mimic language i don't understand just to fit in let alone somehow express myself through it
I often think about how I think thought is the purest form of information because we all have to translate our thinking into our language. But sometimes it is hard or you kind of just can’t translate it correctly
I think CJ's relatable to all the nbs and autistics on this aspect cuz same
This must be why I love wearing scrubs so much. I don’t have to think about it beyond what color I want to wear, I can immediately fit in with a group, and I am not overwhelmed by options either at home or in the store. None of the pressure to be original but not crazy is nice too.
Thank you for making this video. All of it was great but part 4 especially made me feel seen and understood. Now I just have to convince my friends to watch this, wish me luck
Derek Guy is the reason I cannot unsee too-tight men’s suits.
Being female, I knew next to nothing about men’s fashion before following him. It’s actually fascinating, and in the world of fast fashion I love hearing anyone talk about things like drape and tailoring.
As someone who started sewing their own clothes to escape the unflattering spandex hellscape, this is a great discussion with so much to unpack. I used to feel uncomfortable with the regressive connotations of the flattering 50s fit-and-flare silhouette, but it has always felt physically and aesthetically correct for me. I have gradually embraced it as representative of my dedication to the husband and home I cherish, rather than the patriarchal ideal itself. Moreover I get so many compliments now, which opens the discussion to the eco-friendly materials, size-adjustability, and ethical labor which go into my dresses. My clothes are now part of who I am; something that cannot be bought.
I also wear a lot of hand made clothing, although I have to pay someone to do it for me. If I find a garment I like, I have it remade when it starts looking off instead of braving the shops looking for something not made of polyester that can be worn for more than two seasons.
This is so similar to my experience building a sense of style and wardrobe I’m happy with! I just rambled about it elsewhere in he comments but I should have read your comment first haha
Art and fashion are not just cultural language or purely subjective, there is innate meaning and beauty it is built upon, e.g. there is lots of subjectivity in music, but consonant sounds have certain physical properties, and purely dissonant music is insufferable. Clothing I would guess is about attractiveness, social role and self-expression. And IMHO we are overdoing the individualism. With modern clothing people often imitate pop stars, it is a little bit like everyone is trying to be extra special, and women's clothing is often heavily sexualized. Which I can understand when one goes dancing but I do not get the need to show your ass to strangers when you go shopping. Or with men that wear jogging pants everywhere I think the subtext is "I do what I want, and I don't care about you."
More classic fashion is attractive, e.g. it tries to make one look thin or broad-shouldered, but much more modest. The communication is more "I am an upstanding citizen". A more classical understanding of society is that there are the decent working people and the riff raff or so and one tries to appear respectable or face social rejection, while nowadays there is more a focus on appearing liberated from or above society and rebels are idolized. I think classic fashion is more honest and functional.
@@pik910 Honest about what, though? I assume the implication is that the sweatpants reflect a facade of 'appearing liberated' while classic fashion reflects the honest truth of people's acceptance of the social contract. I can't necessarily speak for others, but in my experience most of those 'guys who wear jogging pants/sweatpants everywhere' aren't trying to covey a forced sense of detachment and disinterest, they are just genuinely disinterested. While I think this is more a reflection of how the weakening of subcultures has left a lot of people (and when I say people I mostly mean young men), as was mentioned in the video, without much of a grasp of exactly they should dress to convey what they want to. The solution is simply not really dedicating much effort to it, and whether this in of itself is something wrong is separate from the idea of it being 'dishonest'. I think the sweatpants are perfectly honest, really, except in that the disengagement expressed isn't necessarily voluntary.
The fashion historian girlies will tell you that our current era of fashion is very much about revealing the shape of the body as much as possible. Squishing men into too-tight suits looks a lot like the leggings as pants debates I recall from the 2010s.
Yes!!! Also skinny jeans, men might wear them more than women nowadays
At least leggings are stretchy though. The 'I'm gonna burst out of this' look of a skinny suit just always looks uncomfortable
I'm just trying to avoid the horror that was 90s menswear. 77 sizes too big in varying shades of beige and navy.
This fashion historian girlie will also say that it’s cheaper to make stretchy clothes. Both because the material itself is cheaper (synthetic) and because it’ll fit more body sizes, which means you don’t have to make as many sizes. Ready-to-wear fashion has often been decried as the beginning of the end for well-fitted clothes, because it meant clothes were made in certain sizes that accommodated a range of bodies, instead of being fitted to one specific body type. Stretch-added fabrics make it possible to carry just 5 sizes of a blazer that’ll fit most bodies-not well, but it’ll fit.
@@ccdaly2561 Beige is to be feared.
Entirely independently from this video, I had a fun struggle with fashion mirroring your experience. I wanted to know how to dress, got unintentionally rebuffed by people giving non-advice for how to dress fashionably, grew weary after years of non-answers, decided to treat fashion as a language with which you speak to others, and settled on "fuck it, I'll learn the language myself."
I got gently teased/complimented for 'dressing like a Pokémon trainer' about half a year back, and I've been told I dress 'grunge' and that I 'look like I could bite [someone's] head off'. I **love** it. That means I succeeded in telling people "I am a fucking nerd but also I am kind of abrasive if we don't know each other yet." I am speaking fluently, where before I was incapable of coherent speech.
edit: apparently people thought I was a guy from this??? No, im just a gay woman
oh wait. this makes perfect sense. thank you
Omg yes, I've also been told the pokemon trainer comment lmao
Maybe its my autism, but hearing CJ explain the lack of advice they got regarding fashion guidelines is bananas, bc like? Nobody in his social circle could go "it depends on what situation youre in or what youre trying to communicate. Lets start by making a Pinterest moodboard around a feeling/event, and ill help you pick out clothes that would make others perceive that on you, and we'll go from there" 😅
@@doctorwholover1012a lot of socializing is just complaining/ranting about something that bothers you, and then moving on. with the neurotypical people around me, they don’t offer solutions, because that’s not the point of the conversation. it’s solely to air grievances.
@megan-mr9vk @megan-mr9vk but he was asking directly? I'm familiar with venting vs constructive convos. I'm just baffled that none of his homies were able to see he was asking for direction, not assurance 😅 bc to me it seems so simple, like;
How do I dress?
However you want.
No, like how do I dress in specific ways?? Like how you dress?
Oh. It depends on the situation/what ur trying to communicate. Let's get a pintrest board going n figure it out.
😅 like I could identify a friend asking for reassurance vs constructive advice, and when I can't, I ask them using my words? Just seems wild to me that everyone just insisted on assuring him instead of like, checking? Trying?
When CJ said they were working on a Jordan Peterson project this was not what I was expecting but I am definitely here for it
I don’t think it’s possible for me to watch a new CJX video without me internalizing valuable life advice.
"Use your self-expression to make things beautiful" perfectly sums up a feeling I've had for a long time about music festivals that drastically changed the amount of energy I put into dressing for them. Anything you attend, you are a part of the scenery, ambiance, and 'vibe.' When you deck yourself out in bright colors, glowy lights, and sparkly shit you're not just making yourself pretty, you're making the whole event a tiny bit prettier.
This is so true & beautiful ❤❤ and can be applied to every day settings, too
jordan peterson literaly wrapping himself in self hate to own the left is symbolic in the most hilarious and tragic way possible.
on a different note, this was lovely. first time i connected to a discussion about style/fashion. the idea of clothes as social language and a way to signal your social group or social identity isn't new to me, but there's something about how it's discussed here that feels like it relates more to connecting to others and being able to communicate yourself to them, and doesn't have in it's subtext the idea of "fitting in" in the sort of opressive conformist kind of way
It’s giving Harvey Dent and Joker vibes- boy is he telling on himself 😂
Huh, this really shines a light on that phrase" "Know the rules, so you can break them" and helps me see how it makes a lot more sense. The act of breaking those rules should communicate something, but to say something you are more effective if you actually know the language.
23:20 I feel like JP's new clothes actually mean "late 2000s pickup artist" in an uncomfortably legible way
you know, i've recently been picked up by a very important art gallery in my country, and recently i've been feeling a little more comfortable using the adjective "artist" to decribe me, opposed to when i was studying painting at uni or when i already had a bachelor degree... and your videos tend to be VERY insightful, it literally has helped me grow in my career as a conceptual artist, and for that THANK YOU.
cj, your videos always make me feel like the astronaut in the last act of 2001 a space odyssey, like i've just touched the monolith and received hidden knowledge of every color my corporeal eyes couldn't see before
Same lol, I entered this vid thinking my fashion's okay now I'm having an aesthetic crisis
Genuinely I wish more of my friends watched their videos, there’s so much to learn and see
This is not the Jordan Peterson video we expected but it is the one we needed
“Art is expression” overshadowed “art is communication”
Art does both. You don’t get to be a part of a conversation if you don’t have the skill or purpose to say something worthwhile.
Edit: I didn’t expect my comment to get this much traction. I’ll keep it up for the sake of discourse, but this is not my hard stance. Please tear it apart if you have something good to say.
Sure. Yet art can be for oneself. If all you care about is having a painting in your home that only you enjoy? That is valid and valuable.
Communication simply happens to be valuable as well. Though I’d argue art is just as valuable, if not more so, if it ends up alienating half its audience.
Art that takes no risks and is appreciated by all can sometimes be the least interesting.
I like Jordan Peterson’s suits. I like the idea of having my personality and ideologies woven into my clothes. I don’t like his ideologies, but I respect the craft.
Perhaps CJ’s sample size was too small? They only talked about conservatives, when if a progressive goofy content creator did this, we wouldn’t bat an eye. Hank Green, for example.
Same reason I was always annoyed by phrases like, "art is open to interpretation." Yes, everyone can draw their own meaningful from a beautiful painting, but I still want to know what the artist was thinking when they chose those colors, those expressions, that composition. It's not enough for one person to look at a piece and decide for themselves that it's high art; it has to be painted in a language that the culture can read.
I wanted to comment "Even a diary entry is written in understandable language" but then I remembered the only way I got into journalling was forgoing any attempt of following form or language to raw expression in something that best compares to hollywood portrayals of insane scribbing on prison walls so I guess I take that back
@@calvinjohnson6242That’s true. If art is solely for yourself, then it can be anything that offers catharsis. I’m talking about art that’s part of a larger cultural conversation, like Peterson’s suits. People need a shared language to communicate effectively, and that language can be played with once you’ve mastered it.
Art is also known to offend and shock, expanding the boundaries of culture and art in that way. Most art periods in art history are represented by artists that at some point defied their cultures aesthetic values, creating a new era of art and a lot of controversy at the time.
That use of Bane's "for you" took me out.
Like I've felt that in different circumstances.
I wish i could like this twice. The explanation of not being able to dress as like not being able to speak - EXACTLY. The idea of figuring out who you are and dressing like a member of that group - THANK YOU, I NEEDED THAT
Sheer poverty. I’m sorry - we need to at least *feel* like we can aspire to more than that
Dude, same. I want to give this video 5 likes.
I freaking love this topic, one of my favorite experiences as an art teacher was spending a whole semester discussing different aesthetics philosophies with a bunch of what started as awkward shy teens and ended as slightly more self assured awkward teens. Seeing them comprehend and put a name to their own aesthetic experiences was magical to me. To me fashion IS an art project, but art projects to me should be means of communication with a proper visual language
YES, I FULLY AGREE!!!
Aesthetic experiences have to be able to be at least partly divorced from their semantic content. The thing you see is the thing you see; the thing you hear is the thing you hear. Of course it comes from somewhere, and of course it might be an attempt at communication - but it also just is the thing that it is, monolithic. Ya know?
@@d.f.4830 Hard disagree with the word "should" here. Rather i think they just are and its up to you to decide on what level you want to engage with the content
@@akasakikawasaki1890 I’m afraid the literal word “should” isn’t in my comment 😅
@@d.f.4830 lol true, but "have to able" is the same vibe
i think about the maintenance manifesto a LOT especially bc im really into mending clothes, and i've had to explain to people that while i can afford to buy new socks, i like mending my socks for reasons beyond their commodity value. anyway so i am so delighted that cj is talking about it because i think maintenance as a whole is a really powerful stance that can help reframe the objects of our lives as living participants in rituals and not inert goods whose only value is in being bought, sold, and discarded
I heard a maker talking about why making a spoon was more meaningful than buying a spoon, and I like the way they spoke about it, Mark Frauenfelder on Colbert Report as I recall, but the framing of that which always sticks in my head is Mitch Hedberg's "I bought a seven-dollar pen because I always lose pens and I got sick of not caring". You can put value into things in all sorts of ways, and surrounding yourself with things you've decided are valuable is worthwhile.
I’m fully just jumping off from your point for my own little crochet rant but I think making or mending your own clothes gives them more value than store bought ones, as someone who crochets, and has some low level sewing skills, I find myself paying more attention to clothes than I used to.
When I see a jumper I think about the material it’s made from and how fast it will pill, whether it’s breathable if it will fit in with my other clothes, whether I could actually just make something I liked more on my own. I think culturally we have lost touch with the value that clothes and fabrics hold. Friends have suggested I try selling the blankets I make and are amazed when I explain how I would have to charge maybe £100 to just equal the value of the wool I used without factoring in my time or trying to make a profit.
Mending things or altering them to your taste allows more room for individualism, but I also believe it connects us to the people around us, it is inherently social (often more so in an online space now) where you discuss stitches, patterns, methods and tips and when you become fluent in the language of your craft you can create new patterns new methods and contribute share them to other people. For me it connects me to my mum, I learnt from her and ask her for advice on what I’m making, what type of wool she thinks I should use, how to make something just based on an idea. It’s something I hope to pass on to my hypothetical future children.
Please help me in my quest to mend socks I keep asking my mom but she says it's pointless
I love your comment so much, especially your final sentence. "Maintenance re-framing objects as living participants in our lives and not inert goods whose only value is being bought, sold, and discarded." Chef's kiss 👌
Do you have advice for re-sizing clothes, mainly to make them larger? I have a gorgeous secondhand wool coat that almost touches the ground when I walk that I bought a few years ago when I was about 20 and underweight, and now that I'm 26, a healthier weight, and on testosterone, my shoulders are too big for the coat and I don't want to get rid of it but also know almost nothing about altering clothing.
If you have any suggested resources on mending clothing, that would also be great. It's something I've been meaning to learn but my disabilities (physical and otherwise) have gotten in the way of learning anything but the most basic hand stitching that doesn't even follow any specific stitches or rules and is done the same way I used to sew badges onto my Scout sash
As someone who has been fluent in the language of fashion as long as I can remember, this video was a very articulative experience. I remember reading somewhere when I was quite young (like an actual child) that the way you dressed was the way people perceive you and as an autistic person who is often misunderstood that really stuck in my head. People do treat people who dress poorly worse than people who dress well, certain things can be inferred about a person based on their clothes. I think something that stumps a lot of people is thinking they have to commit to an identity forever and thus dress the same forever which hasn't been my experience at all.
I used to dress like a witch because i was into witch shit and people were able to pick up on my interests and knowledge base based on that. Now I dress like a posh English (the country not the subject) professor because the colour palette suits me, the items that make up that sort of wardrobe are quality, and it's reflective of my temperament and interests (ie. fondness of knitting, antiques, long exhaustive non-fiction books, cold weather, and farmers markets - don't get me wrong I still like witch shit but it's more of a fun tidbit for people who actually know me). Just the other day a stranger correctly guessed I like the show "Time Team" based solely on how I was dressed, the same way another stranger five years ago when I used to dress like a witch correctly guessed that I knew the difference between the two major forms of satanism.
TLDR:
I think fashion is a useful tool in communicating who you are to other people without even speaking with them, especially for folks like me who have trouble in the social skills department. People are much less likely to think I'm rude and much more likely to think I'm shy or reserved if I'm dressed like female Giles from btvs.
I'm autistic and I relate strongly to this. The way I dress is also me sending a message to myself, almost like putting on armor, to prepare for my day and remind myself who I am or draw strength from certain accessories almost like talismans to give me courage/comfort/confidence when I feel weak and scared and isolated. Like wearing earrings that are dopamine molecules or a necklace with a serotonin molecule on days that I know will be really difficult mentally/emotionally, as if they can help provide the dopamine/serotonin that I will need to get through the day.
I also try to dress alt/queer/androgynous and often wear buttons/pins that state my identity as a queer, non-binary, autistic, and disabled person who is very anti-oppression. I want others who are autistic/disabled and/or queer/trans to look at me and feel like I am safe and familiar, or "friend shaped" as the memes say. And I want neurotypical, abled, cishet people to look at me and feel somewhat confused, particularly about my gender. I don't want them (the latter group) to think I am part of their group and assume my gender is binary and that I would side with them if they discriminated against someone who isn't in their group. I don't care that it puts me at risk of discrimination, because I live somewhere that it's unlikely I will be in physical danger for being a visible minority.
It's very much that quote "art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable" but applied to fashion.
I also have a few main styles that I go between: dark academia, punk/alt (general, not a specific subculture), generally queer, and outdoorsy/nature themed (mostly for if I'm gonna go for a hike or spend time in nature.) and generally most of my clothes are black or dark colours like red, purple, navy. I have some green and brown tones, but almost exclusively wear those when I'm dressed for outdoor exploration rather than social/public scenarios. So aside from my more utilitarian/natural style which has a specific purpose, my fashion always leans towards dark/alt aesthetics. Hence why my more formal style is described as dark academia, lol. Because it's stuff like suits and vests and ties, but almost entirely in shades of black, dark red, navy, burgundy, and some forest green. More like Gerard's outfits during the MCR revenge era than like something most professors would wear, and less earth tones than typical dark academia. But I do still have bow ties, suspenders, vests, leather shoes, flat caps, etc.
PS I also love time team and now want to go watch it
@@Alex-fc8xn I do something very similar with jewellery but using gemstones relating to my astrological placements/chart (ie. if I need to tap into the Aries energy in my chart I'll wear bloodstone or if I need to tap into the Libra in my chart for that day I'll wear pearls, etc.) I'm aware that astrology and crystals are not very scientific, but at the very least they are placebos that are nice to look at and decorate your body with. I would also like to think that the way I dress makes me look "friend shaped" to other literature and history nerds or at the very least people who are just really into drinking loose leaf tea.
I'm nearly 40, and this video genuinely changed how I approach dressing myself.
I've watched this three times now. This is one of the most important video essays on youtube to me. I feel the need to get some new clothes, to find myself both in expression and in spirit. I want to be percieved as who I percieve myself to be, but in a way that is also legible to others around me.
Thank you CJ.
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU TALKED TO HIM OMG
it's wild how many gender non-conforming people I've seen resonating with a guy talking about strict suit rules
(edit: wtf happened here??? 👀I was talking about Derek, obviously)
We crave rules. We crave guidance. We have no elders. We just want to do it right so people will love us and the children of the village will stop throwing garbage at us.
@@misanthrophex I don't think OP was talking about Peterson but that Twitter fashion guy (Derek?) who talks about suits and draping and such. I mean I assume so because he's the only "him" CJ actually talked to in the video.
God, I thought you were talking about Peterson for a minute and I was stunned
@@kakonthebed At least you didn't immediately call for the extinction of the entire human race while lamenting how everyone else is more stupider than you. I feel bad because that's very embarrassing for them but it's also the hardest I've laughed in weeks.
@@misanthrophexbro wasn’t even talking about Peterson……..who do you think “guy taking about strict suit rules” is? Thank you for demonstrating your lack of critical thinking skills (and your melodrama)
this is so interesting bc like. I feel like I spent the entirety of my high school experience trying and failing to explain to people that I knew that the way you dressed and the choices you made about your appearance meant something, signaled something to the people around you, and that my stress over my wardrobe wasn’t so much about what other people thought of me so much as it was my ability to control what people thought of me. like I didn’t care if people thought I looked terminally online or gay or whatever - I am in fact gay and terminally online! I’m here, after all!!! but I just wanted to be in control of how and when my dress conveyed that. it’s honestly really relieving to know that I wasn’t alone in that experience, that enough people have been asking similar enough questions that it’s a topic of discussion. the hermeneutical injustice has been defeated :) (also obsessed with the wardrobe changes throughout this video. proof of concept babey!!)
Here's to all my fellow terminally online gays. 👍🏽
This wasn't the way that I was expecting CJ to talk about Jordan Peterson, but they are clearly on a higher level of aesthetic philosophy that I aspire to reach
This video is not a higher level of aesthetic philosophy. It's just another attempt to do both Modernism, and Postmodernism simultaneously. All such attempts are doomed to failure. CJ sees that their own, previously avaunt-guard, clothing sensibilities have become mainstream and they decide that all people should follow mainstream styles. What they fail to realise is that Peterson does now what their idols were doing in their time. The criticism of these people is the same in substance as that which is presented towards Peterson in this video, that they were destroying tradition in services of their egotistical desires.
@@_xeerewow what a shallow and dismissive interpretation. Cant even explain why trying to combine useful elements from postmodernism and modernism is a doomed endeavor, just throws it out as fact
These broad generalizations seem to intentionally forgo the nuances of the video. CJ clearly communicates that in order for a counter cultural or transgressive approach to fashion/art to be meaningful, it must be cultrally legible.
I also dont know what you mean by their "idols" doing the same thing they criticze peterson for. If by idols you mean aesthetic inspirations like David Bowie or drag, that is absolutely *not* the same thing as Petersons heaven-and-hell suit. Those people were engaging directly with the social language of fashion and producing something that utilizes and recontextualizes the specifics of the history of dress. Drag in particular is obsessed with the history and language of fashion.
That is not the same thing as the middle school level fashion that Peterson particpates in here, cynically produced by a clout shark. Comparing buying the tweet suit from a flattering, desperate-to-be-viral crypto bro to someone like Bowie is to flatten the conversation beyond recognition and far beyond utility.
This is a meaningless comparison and your reasoning seems to stem from some political aesthetic preferences that you are working backwards from to justify. Gross
@@Extracredittttt Wow. What a shallow and dismissive response. And an interesting use of projection as well. I find Peterson's politics abhorrent. I think we agree on this. But you are the one who judges his clothes based on his politics. Your comment is full of allusions to the moral character of the guy who makes the suits and the people who wear the suits. It's also a bit silly to get bogged down in terms here. "Idols" is a good way to describe them, given that CJ uses the term "Gods". If anything, my choice of words was in good faith, rather than the dishonest motives you seem to attribute to it.
Modernism and postmodernism cannot coexist because they are fundamentally opposed. Modernism views those who discard cultural norms as immoral. Postmodernism views them as visionary and subversive. You cannot hold both thoughts at once. When you look at the actual complaints about Peterson's dress, this cannot be more apparent.
The central issue he takes with it is that it is using the language of graphic design and metaphor in the medium of clothing. The video supposes this is a perverse act done by immoral people (dancing in the ashes of culture to stroke your ego) because it violates the established norms of fashion. A Postmodern view would be that the mixing of different media is a potentially interesting endeavour. The contrast between a suit, a symbol of tradition, and Peterson's suits which reject tradition, is highly compelling. It says "I would like to express my ideas in a way you haven't seen before". The fact that his ideas are terrible adds an additional layer of comedic irony to the message. Then this video is the ultimate fulfilment of that irony. The Twitter suit is explicitly designed to piss off people who don't like Peterson, and it has succeeded so viscerally as to provoke an hour long tirade about how the suit itself, not just the ideology it represents, is the incarnation of evil. Just because Peterson is bad, doesn't mean he didn't succeed here.
The Modernist view is plainly incompatible with this perspective. It supposes that we are subordinated to the traditions of the past, which work towards a higher objective standard of beauty. Thus any break with that tradition is evil. This video clearly expresses that Modernist sentiment, that breaking from tradition is bad. A Postmodernist rejects the idea of objective beauty, so there is no way sustain such a view. The most common observable trait of Postmodernism is a celebration of that which diverges from traditions and expectations, which is diametrically opposed to the thesis of this video.
Most people understand logically that objective beauty does not exist, but they are unable to rectify that with their instinctive belief in it. The result is endless theories that try to skirt around the contradiction between the two ideologies. This video does that principally through meaning. It supposes that the clothes express no meaning, and are therefore objectively bad. But this is not true. The meaning of the suites is obvious. The real issue is that they express no meaning in the language of fashion, with the presupposition being that clothes should adhere to the developed language of fashion to be objectively beautiful. And there you have Modernism. It was just hidden with clever tricks. Turning "this expresses its meaning in a way I disagree with" into "this has no meaning" is a way to hide the subjectivity of what you're saying. It tries to distort the Modernist view into a Postmodernist one. But ultimately they are still incompatible, so it fails.
In reality, there is no coherent critique of Peterson's suits beyond "I don't like them". They are camp, and tacky. I enjoy camp and tacky things so I like the suits. Other people do not like those things, so may not like the suits. I feel no need to obscure that fact, or to justify my preference with an objective source.
@@_xeereholy cringe
@@Extracreditttttholy based
I just turned 30 this year. This video has put words to something I've been trying to understand and grapple with for like half a decade (and not just in terms of fashion). In so doing it has brought me a lot of clarity. Maybe overdramatic to call it life changing, but something definitely "clicked" while watching this. Thank you for ameliorating this little hermeneutical injustice.
YES YES THISSS! THIS WHOLE VIDEO!!!
As a visibly Asian (American) woman who is not Korean/Japaness/Chinese (but Hmong) I always felt so underdressed around the female foreign exchange students from East Asia. And it was because they were dressing in the language of East Asia while I was kinda there in my hoodie and jeans. I would try to wear Asian clothing, try to wear what they wore because it looked nice on them so it should, in theory, look nice on me, but I never got it quite right. They had shape and drape, they had a language for fashion that I just didn’t understand.
I love this video for putting this feeling to words!!!
Cool
Hey, I know you👋
you’re so real for this
You just made me understand my own issues with fashion? Like, this video has legit changed my life? In a relatively minor way, it's not something I was *super* hung-up on, but... I get it now, you gave me the framework I needed. Thank you.
The worst part is people will say it's subjective and you should dress how you want, but then if you don't dress in a way that fits with the aesthetics of the situation, group, or event, so often you're accidentally communicating something you might not have meant to communicate. And then people make comments so it's like yes dressing well is subjective but also denying societal norms is fucking cruel to people who are impacted by unintentionally going against them.
Not that going against societal/situational norms is wrong necessarily, but it sucks when its not on purpose, like you're unknowingly screaming curses in a language you don't speak and the person who speaks that language is like "words are just letters put together"
I love my violett jogging pants. They seem to be always inappropriate.
@lanew8719 this! I love breaking social norms and doing whatever strikes you as interesting, but there's a huge difference between doing that intentionally (aware of what you're communicating and being okay with that) and being completely clueless. It's not fun or expressive if you're constantly misunderstood.
@@thelazydeathgod Exactly, it's not creativity it's confusion!
Standing out when you were trying to blend in can be so frustrating. Especially if you're not even sure if it's a good or a bad "standing out", people will be like "wow you have such a unique sense of style" and it's like is that a thinly veiled insult? I spent like 3 hours on instagram and tik tok trying to figure out what I was supposed to be wearing.
See, there ARE rules, but the fun part is that you are not obliged to follow them, BUT you also should be ready for consequences of your actions, the reaction of you not using the rules. It is perfectly clear, I don’t see how it is that hard to get. Not with fashion - with absolutely everything in life
I love how this is about fashion but also about language. The bit about someone else giving you vocabulary that you didn't previously have is exactly how this video makes me feel. This all makes perfect sense to me as an autistic woman. I realized during my quarter-life crisis that clothes are part of how I mask. I spent a good decade basically wearing uniforms to dictate a certain role. This is my student uniform, this is my corporate uniform, this is my classroom teacher uniform. About a year ago I quit my job and found myself basically being like... what do I look like now? And a huge part of finding my style was figuring out the social niche I felt like I fit in. For CJ it's androgynous 80s musicians, for me it was queer-coded goth girls. Not an exact social category that I perfectly fit into, but an idea I want to evoke when people look at me. It just makes sense.
Aww the clip of you and your mom dancing at the end is so soft I love it
UGH this video is so good. The way you lit up when you talked about finding yourself reflected in 80s glam was amazing, I want to find my 80s glam. Don't know exactly where to start but I'm actually looking forward to some gender exploration for once.
For me it started in the movies of the late 90s, something about the fashion spoke to me... just how it was simple but it had also so much "flavour".
The Tv show Friends for example, all seasons had a very distinct style and one day it hit me: i want to live in that lil coffee shop... i want Phoebe Buffay to play the guitar while wearing all her fun necklaces and long skirts... i want to belong to that fun little world because mine can be very colorless and inside my head is also pretty much muted colors when my mental illnesses collide.
Yes! I'm right there with you, I would love to find my 80s glam but a big problem I have is that my aesthetics are paradoxical lol
@@atuvera9021this is so wild bc when cj was talking about 80s glam, I was genuinely also thinking "omg that's how I felt watching friends!!"
With a little more exploration into 90s indie-adjacent culture, I realized explicitly feminist and counter culture (but still muted aesthetically) icons like fiona apple and tori amos were even more my style. But friends- phoebe and rachel specifically, and Brimful of Asha playing during the scene transitions- that vibe was the kicker for me
WAS NOT EXPECTING THAT RANDOM DROPOUT REKHA SHANKAR CLIP 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
WHAT WHAT TIME STAMP?!
@@pangetpampam8272 3:45 lol I love her
For anyone curious, it's from a show called Smartypants! It's a show where people from the Dropout family essentially show up with a homemade PowerPoint and a 10 minute mini-lecture on a self-chosen, often weird subject. Previous subjects include "wrestling and drag are the same thing", "why birds might steal your girlfriend", and "vegetables don't exist" 🙌
The crossover I didn’t know I wanted
@@MsCunningLinguistic Paul' Robolino's "how he would improve our bodies" is top tier entertainment.
I literally had no idea how to conceptualize good vs bad fashion beyond my own unguided inutition until you explained it in terns of language the way you did and it INSTANTLY made sense. Thanks
Fashion being language and outfits being expressions and sentences is a truly perfect analogy because, like language, is it contextual and participatory and constantly evolving. Different words have different uses in different contexts and often connotation is mere personal preference but you can't intelligently or authentically make that choice without understanding the connotations and meanings behind your options. Poetry isn't literal and runways are often avant-garde, less about the practical use and more about pushing the boundaries and purpose of art and creative expression, but it's also a luxury and can be difficult to parse. There are times I resort to a garbled, incoherent noise to best express my emotions and days I throw on something based on touch and feel rather than any sort of coherent purpose or intention, but I have the education, experience and sensitivity to figure out what it is I dislike about something that doesn't fit quite right or the difference between something I aesthetically admire and a thing I want to wear myself. Many people learn to mimic the language they want to learn instead of how to develop the vocabulary to understand others and express themselves. I have a flitting and inconsistent understanding of a dozen contexts I am not fluent in, passingly familiar with cultures and histories and fashions and it is DAMNED DIFFICULT to explain my frustrations when realizing my bf doesn't even know which underwear strain against his jeans and embarrass him or why his book has implications he didn't intend via uniforms and aristocratic dress
This was a beautiful summary of fashion ideology. It has inspired me to both consider my own self expression and self knowledge, and to read more about fashion philosophy and art philosophy. Gotta rewatch your subjectivity/objectivity in art videos. Your work is excellent, thank you.
Things CJ says make me feel like I’m not a real artist sometimes. Like I’m not literate enough in artistic meaning in the same way they’re talking about fashion language? Drawing and making stories is something I do so innately but I’ve been so isolated societally and socially that I can’t exactly do the communication part of the art I guess, or I just have such a hard time applying all these like… philosophical frameworks to me and my pretty anime boys. Anyone see that ogre meme where he’s crying about not being able to read deep meaning in ulysses? It feels like that.
aw man, sorry you feel that way. i get that orc reading ulysses feeling sometimes too :(. but if you're making art you're a real artist!! and if people --even your future self tbh-- are seeing your art, then you're communicating something to them! you're communicating that you like pretty anime boys and (i'm speculating here) you're communicating how you imagine those boys feel about and relate to each other, themselves, and their world. which can be some deep and philosophical shit! & also this fashion framework doesn't fit 1:1 with other kinds of art, IMO.
Literacy in social meaning as a part of art is something you can only gain with time and experience, I assume your young from what you said about being socially isolated, but even if you aren’t maybe my point can still apply. Your art has value because people care about it, there are loads of people who love pretty anime boys and sharing your art with those people even if through an online community will only enrich it. Other people will take value from it and give advice in technique, composition, style and from that and seeing what other people create can add value. You are a real artist simply by doing the act of creating art and caring about what you make.
Alternatively if you want to learn more about your discipline then learn, take a class online in human figures, you will probably suck for a bit but you’ll get the hang of it and you’ll take the skills you learned from an expert about how people work and apply it to your specific style. You don’t have to do this but often understanding artistic foundations like colour theory and form help with different styles of expression.
I guess my main point is to engage with what you’re interested in, share your work with other people and get feedback. Look at what other people create and give feedback because that is what art is about, pay attention and apply what you learn. Just try not to worry about what is considered “real art made by an artist” and focus instead on what is interesting art, valuable art to your experience and other peoples. Your art doesn’t have to say anything deep or meaningful other than this is what I care about and I want to share it.
I hope I'm not overstepping here, but your comment speaks to my past experience and so I'm kind of compelled to offer some advice. I'm not going to tell you whether or not you're a Real Artist; I don't know your art, and I don't know whether it is successfully communicating with others the way that you want. But if you're worried about your ability to "read" and "write" in whatever your medium of choice, here are some tips for gaining that artistic literacy that you currently feel you lack:
1- Listen to how other people analyze. Look at art history and philosophy books in your library. If the first one you pick up doesn't make sense to you, write down who they're referencing and go read that first. Relatedly, creators talking about their own creative process (Director's commentary tracks, Scott McCloud's whole bibliography but esp Understanding Comics). Video essays can also be great for this; personally, I'm a writer and an illustrator, but when I was going through this process years ago I found a lot of benefit from Every Frame A Painting and Lindsay Ellis' old Phantom of the Opera video talking about cinematographic language. Just like any other language, you will pick up the vocabulary and nuance through immersion, and many concepts translate across mediums even if they are expressed differently. And when you listen to these analyses, stop sometimes and ask yourself: do I agree? Do I disagree? Do I mostly agree but have quibbles? Why? If I was talking to this analyst face to face, what would I say to them to convey this? (edit to add: And don't assume they must know better because they're "an expert". You're trying to join in a conversation, not absorb a lecture.)
2- Ingest new art. You like anime? Try out other genres, see if anything about their aesthetics or their storylines speaks to you (modern shounen vs modern shoujo vs what those genres were doing in the 80s are all very different). Conversely, what do you DISlike in them? If there's a genre you hate, what is it about works in that genre that repulses you? Is there anything good in there that you might want to wash off and bring back to your own work? Take a look at other Japanese media; do you notice when these pieces of media start referencing each other, or when themes start reappearing in the different stories? Dip your toes into American or European comics. Old silent movies. Listen to the album for a sung-through musical. Enjoy it or don't, and see if anything in it sparked thoughts or ideas that you want to play with. Do a wiki dive on an artist or a genre or an artistic movement to find new pieces to look at. See if your library has any books full of pictures of sculptures or paintings that you can't otherwise go see. Rinse, repeat.
3- Critically re-examine old favorites. When you land on a line or a shot or a scene that really speaks to you, stop a moment and look at the structure of it. What did the artist do to craft this moment? Their word choice, their framing, etc. Why does it work? Are there techniques you'd like to try using in your own art? If there's something that's always bugged you or never worked for you, what are you not liking about it? Is it just the execution, or the entire premise? How would you have done it differently?
4- Find the meaning. All art communicates something, even if (especially if) the artist does not think they're doing so. Pick a media that speaks to you, or that you absolutely can't stand. What is it trying to say? Through explicit text, or through subtext. Is the explicitly stated moral of the story at odds with the characters' actions and fates? Did the artist mean to convey this message, or did they mess up their execution, or did their own biases permeate a piece of art that wasn't meant to be about those biases at all?
5- Lastly, being An Artist is about two things: communication, and practice. Are you making art? (Sounds like it.) Are you striving to improve your art? (Again, sounds like it).) Are you communicating something in your art? (You are, even if subconsciously.) Then you are an artist. You may be a BAD artist, I wouldn't know, but improving is always possible even for very very good artists. When you have a story idea, run with it, explore it, and then pause to look at your own art with a critical eye. Become conscious of the message you're conveying. Are some themes jumping out at you as you sketch out this idea? Do you want to lean into them, or do they go against what you want? Does some other piece of art you liked resonate with the thing you're doing? Do you want to reference that other piece of art, so that your audience may feel the same resonance? Is your story a rejection of some other story that you found repugnant, your own new take that says "that was wrong, and here's how it should be"? And you do the art, and it turns out as well as you're capable of making it at the time, and then you move on to the next piece having learned something from the last.
Best wishes to you in your endeavors.
Don't worry, it takes time :) CJ has been thinking and reading about subjectivity in art for two years straight.
What's really cool is that they put TWO YEARS of thinking into an hour very eloquently, and we've just absorbed all that. So now it's like WE have been reading about this topic for a month straight.
Also pretty anime boys are life instinct, never regret them
Most artists aren't literate in aesthetic philosophy. Aesthetic philosophy is more descriptive of what artists do than it is prescriptive of what artists should do. Make your pretty anime boys and do it in interesting in unique ways. And if you're lucky you'll make your anime boys so pretty that aesthetic philosophy will have to catch up to YOU not the other way around
Ok, so the main thing I remember about Jordan Peterson is that he's weird with trans people, and he likes lobsters. So when I saw the two-toned suit at 11:11, my mind IMMEDIATELY went to the split color lobsters who tend to be hermaphrodites. Coincidence? Probably.
Not going into deep but there definitely is civilwar going on in the lgbt community specially between lesbains and transwomen and along lgb vs tq
@@joyeetaghosh2209 I think you replied to the wrong comment? Unless you're implying that Jordan Peterson is a lesbian or lgb, which I'd be interested to hear more about 🤔
@@joyeetaghosh2209 weird, out of place reply aside, I wouldn’t really describe it as a civil war, more of an online slap fight
Honestly after watching this the biggest thing I started to wonder was what CJ’s take would be on Hank Green’s song T-Shirt and Jeans, a song in which he champions the titular outfit specifically for its ability to obfuscate identity, as well as its ability to postpone the moment where one must finalize a subculture and corresponding fashion style for themself
It feels like CJ had too small of a sample size. Jordan Peterson is someone we all disagree with, and his suits are crafted with his ideology woven in.
But if someone I liked was doing stuff like this? I’d love it. I already love Peterson’s outfits, even though I don’t like him.
If CJ had an outfit with his hate comments all over it, no one would question it. If I was a RUclipsr or celebrity, I would absolutely do that.
I think CJ is wrong about this one. First time we’ve disagreed.
No, I would definitely still question it. I would think that was so petty and beneath anyone to do, but ESPECIALLY CJ, the youtuber known for telling even their fans to get bent and stop believing they care what you think about them.
to add to your point with an anecdote: I have a friend who is a delightful human being, kind, loyal, fun to be around. always dresses in basics from middle class brands like tommy hilfiger, you would **not** see her wearing a color or a cut. and I find it infuriating, because why are you as a young energetic person choose to look like a down to earth small business owner on a casual friday
I completely forgot about this song! What a throwback. It seems to me like Hank disagrees with the fundamental starting point of this video's argument, which is: "Signaling what community you belong to (through dressing correctly like the elites in that community) is good!" I'm not sure if much discussion can proceed from there, with Hanks answer essentially being, "No that's bad actually, I prefer if people don't make assumptions about what community I belong to based on my clothing." An agree to disagree kinda situation methinks.
(Kinda unrelated but I disagree with Hank's statement that the goofy graphic tees he wears in the video's don't say much about him. They very clearly signal the identity of a lovable nerd to me)
@@magicgirliy see I agree with your last paragraph actually! Graphic tees absolutely communicate at least the beginnings of a subculture, that being nerd/normie. Great point!
this video reached into the structure of my understanding to my own relationship to fashion, art-making, and community, and dug out pieces that I had never noticed before, but that had been deeply influencing the way i interact with all of those aspects of my life. holy shit. the parts about art/fashion as connection, and the over-prevalence of "art is subjective", and the need for community -- genuinely unlocked the way i think about these things. thank you so much!! your essays are brilliant.
CJ!! Your shape and drape in this video are divine!! I am nourished!!
Listening to CJ is like listening to a wise mortal oracle, I’m learning about concepts I thought was outside my comprehension but their logic is indisputable and I’m high
In the subculture i’m part of (biker) the fashion is easy - jeans, chucks, Dixxon flannel in club colors… I might not be the target audience for CJ I’m realizing. Doesn’t stop me from watching every video CJ puts out.
This is the cinematic event of the year for me.
43:07 this sentiment and the whole IV section is great.
reminds me of when JID said he doesn't listen to lyrical miracle type rappers even though he's aware he kinda occupies that same space
I had to stop 15 minutes in to write a comment.
I couldn't bring myself to watch this right away. I know how long it might be between videos so I wanted to squirrel this one away but only made it 2 weeks.
I finally sat down to watch this and, man, the way you speak tickles my brain in the exact best way. "Historical crash course on the emergence of industrial capitalism" is the type of conversation I want to have in my day-to-day life but I bore people to tears when I try.
These videos are cathartic for my ADHD, lit-loving, deep-diving brain. I wish I had a CJ in my life.
Thank you for making such entertaining and informative content!!
This video is so autism pilled… ur so right!! UR SO RIGHT!!! 😭 I WANT TO BE IN THE BOAT! I MISS ETIQUETTE BOOKS! THEY ARE ACCESSIBILITY TOOLS!
Etiquette books are medicine for social anxiety.
Loved this whole thing. My immediate thought when discussing the ways that people don't have the social groups or categories that tell them how to dress anymore was how Gen Z is still looking for those codes and norms through particular aesthetics on social media (cottagecore, dark academia, whimsy goth, trad, etc) and honestly it does give me more understanding for those aesthetics as "language" to essentially convey your standing within the world.
On a slightly different note, I've been experimenting pretty drastically with my clothing choices this year and I realized looking back how much my teen years were defined by wearing t-shirts with my favorite pop culture artifacts on them, essentially turning me into a walking billboard. It dawned on me that I'd been defining my identity and self-worth by proxy to external "things I liked/enjoyed" rather than anything internal. Obviously we always exist in relationship to something external to us and identity will never be fully internal, but I think the practice of wearing clothes that just make me feel good or confident or aesthetically beautiful has allowed me to have a greater sense of self-worth rather than attributing that self-conception completely to outside sources of appreciated culture.
13:15 the ASL sign for "thriving" is delightful! It looks like a flower growing 🤚 🖐and then double 👌
I once was in the street with two wicked Charlie horses, one per leg, rolling around in the mud in severe agony as a caravan of mad max style 18 wheelers with spiked tires approached at above speed limit velocity. CJ the X gave a riveting speech on the mind body problem and the land before time and it gave me the strength to give up. Now I don't have to work a full time job as I have no arms legs or soul. Thank you CJ!
when you said "my right to say whatever I want is worthless if I don't know the language" really hit home for me what my girlfriend is dealing with. she's trans, AND plus-sized, and those come with their own specific aesthetic "language", one that I already had a lifetime to learn, growing up as a big girl. and unfortunately I do the same thing your friends did - say that she can dress how she wants, there's no wrong answers, etc etc. i finally fully understand now why that never seemed to satisfy her, and hopefully in the future i'll be a lot more helpful as she tries to figure out what looks best on her. so...thanks for this video? it ended up being a lot more helpful than I thought
"Uncontrollably socially disruptive out of loyalty to my own perception" Iv never had a sentence describe my day to day life so accurately. Bravo and Thank you
Glad to see you're still not over Bo Burnham as that video is my favourite of yours.
I need a link to that All Eyes on Me remix, that sounded super cool!
A CJ the X video was the one thing I thought we’d get after GTA6
This was so personally satisfying to watch. My favorite video essays are those expressing thoughts and ideas I’ve long held but didn’t have the words to express. Thank you for introducing me to these artists/writers/philosophers. (And thank you for not making the obligatory JBP video lol)
Minute 35 just confirmed why I sit with CJ for hours and feel more sane and seen every minute.
ngl this came out when i was actively having a panic attack and it immediately helped. CJ the X you're a magical enby benzo.
I don't disagree with the premise that fashion is a social signifier but I don't agree with the notion that skinny suits are bad in and of themselves. When you showed RDJ he actually pulled them off to me. The main reason Conner looks so bad in them is to do with his body shape being wider relative to his height so he ends up looking like the Michelin Man.
I think it's funny you mention hermeneutical injustice but didn't consider maybe JP's suits have an inarticulable meaning society actually agrees on. I mean the fact you say they're not distinct social signifiers but then state how many people (including myself) instantly thought of a batman villain. Clearly this suit has a somewhat ubiquitous meaning to people who have some knowledge of batman, providing them a way to articulate how it presents. Now what batman villain actually means socially may be hard to pin down but you can't watch that video where he goes on about "woke moralist we'll see who cancels who" and tell me he didn't dress perfectly for how he wants to come off.
I think it's kinda uppity when that derek guy calims these people are not speaking the language of fashion to his understanding and therefore are not communicating correctly. If you didn't know spanish was a language you would think someone saying embarazada is slightly off of trying to mean embarassed when they are actually saying something entirely different. Now I'm not necessarily vouching for Ron Desantis's fashion choices but maybe he's communicating something entirely different that appears to not quite signify what derek reads as the business men of old. Both RDJ and Conner are definitely not going for that when they wear a suit, I mean surely RDJ wearing trainers gives that away.
Overall I liked the discussion but felt like it was very one track minded. I am a loser, thanks for reading.
he's not saying that the dress isn't intentional. he's saying that past generations had a much more elaborate vocabulary for suit tailoring that's all been lost because nobody other than guys like him give a shit anymore, and the only thing we're left with is pop culture symbolism.
@@leah_h._ Well I'm not saying it is intentional on the wearers' part just that it likely does convey some sort of social meaning/messaging, just one that is not as established as the ones he references like 1920s businessman. I would say he kinda emphasises the opposite of what you're saying in that it was easier to pick an outfit and there was a 'right way' to make a suit as there was a simpler vocabulary at the time. Now he thinks the vocabulary has broadened or become confused to a point where people use fashion in a meaningless manner and neglect to communicate anything socially defining through it. Can't speak to actual tailoring techniques if that is what you are referring to but don't think the video really explores that.
when Derek talks about suits he is pretty much just talking about tailoring. the vocabulary for men's fashion as a whole is much broader and but most of the context for suits has been lost compared to when it was one of the only ways men could express themselves.
Right! "tell me he didn't dress perfectly for how he wants to come off" - right! They dress completely appropriately for the cultural group of rich internet assoles and crypto bros, that is what they are. I think that is totally legible. Even, it would not be appropriate for JP to dress like a tired collage professor, because that is not what he is anymore.
i would even go so far as to say that the lack of a distinct message is a message within itself - most likely not the message that the clothing wearer intended, but ideas the audience picks up on regardless
I think this video has advanced my theraphy in like 4 years. Thank you CJ for putting the words in the right order and finally realising this idea and feeling I have also been feeling for all my life.
"I never struggled with being shoved into a box-y category that limited my choice and self expression"
okay okay okay. as an elder millennial who was born in the very early 80s, DO YOU KNOW HOW FUCKING HAPPY THIS MAKES ME?
that is WINNING. I am so relieved and so proud the world can give this gift, at least sometimes, to some people. the process of building a self and reaching for a community is still harder than it should be. the floor is still tilted, which sucks. but there are a lot of metaphorical lead weights that used to get attached to young people's feet while confronting that struggle. and some of those weights have been lifted.
and behold your results. BEHOLD THEM.
I am reminded again and again why it always gives me such hope and ebullience to visit this channel and see what work you have wrought. whatever it is.
as a fashion design student THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO!!!! i cannot express how much i adore your takes and commentary on this subject that i love and respect dearly. and shoutout to derek too he's truly great
OMG APPROXIMATELY 4 MINUTES AND 30 SECONDS IN AND DEREK GUY MENTIONED BY CJ THE X, THE SAGA HAS BEGUN
oh honey
as a fellow gen z bpd traumaqueer artist i find it very interesting how, despite deeply feeling a fair chunk of the shit ur putting out there this is something we've had such wildly different experiences with.
i've def chosen my god and/or it's chosen me, used to be a loner nerd but somewhere in middle-high-school i started making good fashion choices and there hasn't been a decision i've taken back since then. the only thing holding me back at this point is my inability to tailor(and my so far limited ability to shape my own body). def lots of things i do have the skill to shape also and design of our bodies/environment is definitely a core part of why i'm here and at the core of my body of work so far.
Kinda feeling like you're denying the very readable messages petersons suits send. yes, they're ugly and they don't say professor, but peterson isn't a professor anymore. just a fascist enabling dickhead who does more of his own supply than he can handle, and in the context of him being a public figure anyone who would understand the type of person he is already knows enough to read his suit as exactly that.
similar story with the tight fitting suits imo, yes they too are ugly, yes they don't make sense under established norms but given there's so many people doing that, through that process it's at least become an intelligible word if maybe not a proper sentence.
yes, exactly! i actually left a similar comment, i can totally read what his social tag says!
thank you for this comment the unwillingness to understand made this video unbearable for me.
This is what I was thinking the whole time
@@aerispalm6523 I think it’s different bc like. their intent in wearing the suits was not to communicate that. the intent was to use the language of fashion to communicate status and taste - they are wearing them bc they think it makes them look more professional and high status, and they are failing to speak the language of suits articulately enough to communicate that. their failure to communicate DOES tell us about who they are, in the same way that seeing someone yell incoherently on the subway tells you something about who they are, but that doesn’t mean either of them really successfully communicating
I think there is something to be said for fashion as a language changing and developing to include the tight fitted suits as a new phrase within it but like. many of these people are intentionally trying to use the long standing language of suits to try and be seen as someone with Taste(TM). they aren’t trying to express themselves, they’re trying to tap into a preexisting language and the prestige that comes with it, and they’re often failing in doing so
“Jordan, you’re letting this tasteless, wormtongue temptress beguile you into dancing on the grave of your ancestors because you’re so weak to flattery!”
Amazing, and made even more amazing when you’ve slowed CJ down to 0.25x speed to transcribe this with your little texty fingers.
(And by using “amazing” to describe CJ at 0.25x speed, I do mean nightmarish / surreal. Our internet cult leader cannot be limited to just one word per second! This cannot be!)
Timestamp please
55:44
As a lover of the linguistics of fashion and what it says about the wearer and the culture of the time period and a lover of CJ and the X's philosophical rants, I think this is my most favorite video of theirs yet :D
Those closing comments before the credits were absolutely incredible - thanks for another well-written video!!
I love the point we reach in almost every CJ the X video where I feel like the point has been made but in looking at the time still left of the video realize I have just skimmed the surface. I have been taught the language or a first important bit of "thought". I have been entertained the whole way. Now we go deeper for another hour... Great! 🥰
Not CJ the X being my literal soulmate, dropping philosophy on drip right when I’m updating my wardrobe
me taking notes on this video. not as someone fashion illiterate or bored. but as a piece of shit treating it as character design advice for art 💀
Holy shit
No this is a very valid and interesting way of interpreting the video and applying it to your life, tho. Using this to design characters is actually genius
God, I've been having this struggle for years. You've put the feeling, that YEARNING, into words 🥹🤌🏾
This is my first video of yours and i love it; your so great! Wow, please continue doing your things so well at your lovely hearts content
You're videos always feel like an only mildly stressful fever dream which honestly is a mood.
The Jordan Peterson dual-color suit gives Sheogorath and I'll only respect it if it gets me closer to owning the Wabbajack
Nah it's giving 'we've got Sheogorath at home' at best. Those slacks are too boring! 😂
i love that we're talking about fashion today. a lot of people think that fashion is abstract and stupid, but we wear clothes everyday! fashion is a huge part of everyone's life
you know, it’s a strange feeling to see derek guy, the owner of a blog i’ve been reading for over a decade, suddenly rocket to this level of recognition.
Happy Birthday, CJ