Full Video: ruclips.net/video/Yb-PXpj0tP8/видео.html The F-16 is out rated by the Hornet and 2 other aircraft, it is very comparable to 4 other aircraft in 2 circle rate performance. Watch the full video to find out which ones!
It’s because the F-16 used in DCS is the small intake version. The flight model is very realistic and if it was the large intake variant, then yes, it would outrate the F-18
@@MuteSpider63393 Can you give me any real life documentation or source about existence of different size of intake variants for the F16C Block 50 and showing the flight performance difference between these variants
Sadly it's true. Hornet at 360 to 380 knots walks all over a Viper and it shouldn't! I hope the balance is fixed .. I'm a Hornet guy but I want realism.
My interpretation is that the F-16 is a fast fighter, and the hornet is a slow fighter. It's easier to bleed speed than it is to gain speed, so the hornet usually comes out on top in a slow speed fight.
@@brandonhill2183 Yeah so was I, henceforth me saying they perform better in different aspects. Unless you’re saying you responded to the wrong comment
I went to college in Charleston, and the F-16’s from McEntire AB, and the Hornets from MCAS Beaufort would often do BCM right over campus. It would almost always start as a flight of 4 vipers being trailed by 4 hornets, then suddenly everyone would break at once and it normally took about 7 seconds for the 16’s to get behind their hornets and kill them
Everyone fighter pilot I’ve talked to and all the docs out there agree with you and tell a different story than DCS. The viper is an amazing rate fighter and should always beat a hornet in 2 circle rate fighter. Maybe in a 1 circle the f-18 can bleed enough speed and swing its nose w ITS -high AOA CHEAT CODE- LEX leading edge extensions that look like vestigial canards. Both jets are actually really cool and very unique. It seems the Navy however needs a replacement for the F14 now that near-peer dangers exist around the globe. The F35 doesn’t seem to have what it takes as a pure air superiority fighter (it isn’t one and wasn’t intended to be). There will be times we can’t rely on AWACS and we need something that’s blazing fast, with loads of fuel and the biggest, baddest radars/sensors etc. in a massive nose cone and even aft end up radar. Mach 1.6 and 7.5 G’s just won’t be enough against the newest gen 4.5/5 (maybe soon even gen 6) fighter jets. How cool would it be if the SR-72 was somehow carrier capable. I don’t know the size/dimensions but clearly this is unlikely to be the case. But Imagine if it was and was super-stealthy with an f-22 sized RCS & had 6 AIM-260’s (when available) as the tip of the fighter wing spear.
@@utubemewatchif you play falcon bms you will experience the same thing that pilots observers and the data sheets lead you to believe. Take a clean block 50 at 400 knots plug the burner and pull all the way back. In dcs the plane mushes into the air lazily. The first time you do it in bms it is shocking the way it violently accelerates while holding 9gs. Its so easy to cricitze the f35. Untill you then take that same f16 out on any kind of multirole mission. With 2 bags 2x 120s 2x aim9 targeting pod ecm pod and finally whatever ordinance your going to employ, all of a sudden the once incredebly athletic aircraft is slow draggy and lethargic. It climbs slowly and at cruise at altitude it struggles to hold 350+ knots without after burner. When before it would easily sit around 500+. With so much hung off the outside all its performance is destroyed. It doesn't hold energy even in a straight line and it bleeds airspeed violently in a turn. The tables are turned in the f35s favor once the aircraft actually have to go into combat.
@@memememine1 I didn’t know that about the f-35 v fully decked out f-16. How does the STOVL variant of the f-35 compare to the f-35A in the same situation? I just read about the big upgrades for f-22. One of them involve stealthy pylons to carry external fuel tanks - so if the tanks are dumped for a WVR dogfight (which probably shouldn’t happen) the pylons won’t add drag nor scratch the stealthy RCS (like they currently do). I suppose these would be available for f-35. But still, this $72ish billion upgrade for F22 wouldn’t happen unless the NGAD project was far from completion & they felt F-35 wasn’t sufficient in a near-peer war against China for example. And F-22 airfields are too far away from China w/out extra fuel. Also, I wonder if the F22 requires alterations to carry the upcoming aim-260-a missile the f22 will need in order to maintain its qualitative edge against the J20 for example, which China already has in greater quantities than the U.S. has f22’s.
@@utubemewatchIf an F 35 is getting into a dogfight? Something is wrong. The newest Block coming up for the 35 should make it even better performing. Forgot the exact improvement stated by Sandboxx but it was impressive. Can't recall if it was power or just more efficient. Anyway the F 35 is fully suited to attacking and defending air space. I heard it is way better at dog fighting than people think, but what does that even mean. Only the F 35a has a gun. Gotta take that into account. Either way the F 35 is meant to be a stealth boat with the best sensors on a fighter. It is meant to kill BVR, and then retreat most likely. Or work with other aircraft.
Hornets can pull 9Gs just like the F16 the F16 and F18 went head to head in development and design and had to meet the same criteria including 9G pulls.
They are both 9g rated fighters. The fa18 is a newer plane reguardless... But the biggest difference in why the f16 is better than an f18, it's cheap. Like to an extreme degree vs an fa18. We are talking a 2 to 1 cost difference...
F-16 needs to play a perfect game, F-18 needs to mess up for it to be possible. So annoying certain larger RUclipsrs push this false narrative that the f-16 is good, which doesnt bring attention to the problem that needs fixing
@@Acrophobia2tbf that man has outrated f-22s in the two circle fight with a f-16 so I’d see why that misconception is there and he’s also explained multiple times that he capitalizes off of the pilots mistakes
Fun fact the F16 out turned the F18 in the mock dogfights of the LWF competition in the early 70s. Leaving the legendary Col Boyd to be perplexed - he thought the 18 with two engines should win but pilots reported that, not so much winning, but escaping via the tight turning radius (buttonhook turn they called it). See EM theory and such and so forth
“It’s not the plane, it’s the pilot” holds a LOT of truth here. The F-18 clearly is pulling hard to bleed a lot of speed, not really a conventional rate fight.
@@CramcrumBrewbringer Actually it does in DCS and I see it all the time when Growling Sidewinder uses an F-16. Find his channel and watch his videos. He is a skilled DCS pilot who understand Energy management. He almost ALWAYS forces rate fights (two-circle) with opponents when he flies the F-16 and WINS. - This tells me that those who complaining about the rate fight ability of the F-16 do not understand energy management. They are likely always trying to pull the F-18 into their HUD and thus lose all their speed instead of being patient and letting the F-16 do what it prefers and does best. RATE FIGHT. - The F-18 has amazing nose control and can often times cut into the circle in a rate fight to point the nose at you if you are not careful. But if they miss the shots, they will be SLOIW. - Its more than just the plane. It is situational awareness and understanding how to use your energy properly. - It sounds to me more like the ones here trying to claim the F-16 cannot outrate a hornet, just do not properly understand how to pilot the F-16 and so try to make the claim that the F-16 cannot rate fight the F-18 in DCS. Perhaps you should learn your plane better. Growling Sidewinder understand that when rate fighting the hornet with the F-16 you want to keep your speed at minimum 350 but you also do not want your speed to be too high which would make your circle wider. - If you do not believe me, go watch his videos. As he dogfights he explains EVEYTHING. He actually educates people and does not just complain that the game hampers the abilities of the plane.
@@FranciscoPartidas A two circle fight is a rate fight. A one circle fight is nose to nose, a two circle is nose to tail and you are trying to outrage your opponent, thus a two circle is a rate fight. An F-18 would much prefer a once circle fight, nose to nose, because of the F-18s great ability to point the nose especially at slow speeds. You do not want to be at slow speeds in a two circle rate fight. Either fight has a lot to do with energy management. I just think you were a little confused about what a one circle and two circle engagements are.
@@onegemini420 as far as I know, an INE circule fight is when both planes turn at the same dirección, a two circule fight planes departs to opposite direction. In this tye of fight the One whos turns faster wins .
I’ve outrated my friends with a tomcat vs the f16 multiple times 😂, it’s kinda crazy how that’s possible but as the tomcat not complaining. Most of the time I’m fighting blackouts more then the planes capability’s
People under estimate the F14s dog fighting due to it size even when it out turns so for the main fighters in real life sims the us ran the F14 won in a 1v4 against F15s you know the same F15 that has 104 to 0 KD
@@cree71cjmwhen? I wanna see it-he literally always talks about how “the f-16 is the king of dogfighting because it can stuff arm the bandit into rate fighting”. PLEASAEDE-this makes my brain hurt seeing it fail.
This is fantastic. I can't stop watching this over and over and over. ... If I weren't already married, I would make these words my wedding vow, seriously! Edit: and I can't even figure out what Drew is blubbering about!
Frankly the F16 is so much more fun to fly than the F18 anyways. I think more people need to make their plane choices based off what they like more instead of what's the most OP in a simulator.
@@Tabs_Originali’ve seen your vid and tried to fly the hornet at the recommended speed at sea level, using the paddle switch but I keep blacking out with the G effet. Any idea what I should be doing instead?
@MB-cv5pz yeah 420 is too fast. i pinned a comment saying those numbers are the max performance of the jets and the pilot may not be able to deal with it. I forgot to mention it in the video, my bad man, sorry i didnt get the point across better. 380 - 390 would be the speed to aim for and lower it to 360 - 370 as your fuel nears empty.
@@jacobmccandles1767 Well, unfortunately, there is no true "competition" among combat flight sim games... If you really love the Viper, go check Falcon BMS. DCS has bad points as well as good points.
My experience would say otherwise. If a viper is below 400 they’re not a good pilot. It’s all about pilot skill. F-18 reverses? Go vertical. F-18 can’t rate better, doesn’t have the thrust to weight and pulling that AoA to maintain a turn is going to turn your aircraft into a large airbrake.
I've noticed that Hornets do really well in premeditated dogfights. It's a real hot rod when it's slick and the energy state is right. But in the wild, if a fight starts BVR and goes to the merge, Hornets get punked like newborn baby giraffes. The Hornet does not take kindly to having weapons under the wings, and the G limiter really hurts the first turn when the merge happens at BVR speeds. I'd go so far as to say I've probably taken down more 9X-carrying Hornets with a post-merge 530D than I have been shot down by them in the wild.
And fun fact for everybody. There is a non-naval version of the f-18 that the Air Force almost went with before choosing the F-16. That version went by the designation of YF-17
They count out rate them in real life either. The hornets greatest strength is its ability to fly slowly and turn inside of other aircraft, then have enough power to pull out of it. It’s also also the reason why the F-22 needed thrust vectoring to do the same thing.
That doesn’t make any sense, if you turn slow you’d just let the other guy rip around right behind you. you wouldn’t just sit inside of their circle, in a rate fight you’d need to be fast and able to pull g at a sustained rate.
Viper has very narrow envelope against Hornet. Only better at bleeding from 480-ish to 400 in one turn. Hornet can still escape it into sub 350 KIAS anyway. You don’t wanna merge with Hornet.
No it doesn’t, high aoa means less energy over a sustained period. High aoa is for slow fights not rating. they way the f18 flies in dcs is not correct. It doesn’t bleed energy like it’s supposed to.
@@RW-zn8vy yes, true, but the f18a was designed for having high aoa, and since it doesn't stall all fast, it could probably turn faster than a f16 flying past it
F18 is made for dogfights, although I think its optimised for turning radius rather than turn rate. So in a 2 circle fight like shown in the video, the f16 should still win, but the f18 isn't a non dogfight plane
The hornet was not outrating the viper, it simply had enough energy to use its higher AoA limit to cut into the circle and pull lead for the shot. And it wouldn't surprise me if the viper was too slow.
Very good subject! The reason why reality is upside down to DCS or DCS is upside down to reality every now and then and people who play DCS, mostly ignorant or simply without the true info about this and that, being more or less to blame for it when they start opening their mouth and talk without knowledge, will be more prone to believe in DCS than in reality or in the real aircraft performances, such as it this great example. IRL, the F-16 is the best constant turner you'll ever meet in AA engagements. It's just so well engineered aerodynamically that it can sustain the highest turn rate at a lift to drag and thrust to drag ratio like no other modern fighter jet in the world. Neighter the Su-27/35, nor the new MIG-35 can sustain a constant turn rate as well as the F-16. The F-18 in reality has a joke kind of maximum constant turn rate compared to what we all witness in DCS. This is only due to it's overrated engines thrust in DCS, and not just for full afterbuner, but also in 100%MIL power as it can reach even 1.14Mach with 4 missiles. The real Hornet can barely reach 0.99M perfectly clean. By calculation and true data, the constant turn rate (and the instantaneous as well) depend on the following factors: lift to drag, lift to weight (turn Gs) and thrust to drag. The thrust to weight is mostly useful for vertical and forward acceleration. It is not a reliable aspect for determining a good constant turn rate, and even that is actually poor in reality for the F-18C and E and just barely goes past 1. Because the F-16 is actually among the few jet fighters in DCS done accurately in terms of performances while the F-18C having at least 2 degrees per second higher than in reality due to the too high engines thrust, it's no wonder it's more and more the most chosen dogfighter in DCS. Players just like to win no matter the cause or what is true and just. When enough true reality lovers will start asking ED to fix the F-18's overrated engines thrust, reality will indeed be a step further for DCS. The same goes with the Mirage M2000 which also proves the same shit with overpowered engine thrust, yet besides that, the M2000 also gets an exaggerated lift whenever the speed drops below 400km/h even though the engine thrust and AoA remains the same. Many things are wrong in DCS but we like it like that
AS Long as the f16's maintain their energy, they are pretty deadly, get below 250knots in the Viper and the playing field tilts to the Hornet. Low speed nose authority makes it probably the best low energy fighter sans thrust vectoring there is.
Surprised they don't fix this as dcs is supposed to be a simulator. F-16= best sustained turn rate of any fourth gen fighter F-18 = better instantaneous turns and low speed nose authority. It was a navy plane after all .
Air to air engagements are extremely rare these days anywhare in the world. There are wars being fought all over the place but very very few air to air engagements. Almost everytime a western aircraft goesvup against a Russian aircraftcwe all know the outcome yes there was one F18 lost to a MIG 35 during the gulf war. It was killed with a long range missile shot, no dog fighting envolved.
No shit, because none of those wars feature highly capable air forces. You think the same would happen in a Taiwan strait conflict or something else of that manner? Also, the MiG-35 didn’t exist during the Gulf War.
@@jonathanpfeffer3716Iraq had a modern battle hardened airforce that was the largest in the region(they even had mig 29 fulcrums, my favorite plane as a kid). We're talking 1990, they had just bombed the shit out of Iran's airforce. Iraq got 4 or 5 verified kills, and they were feared by coalition forces. It's easily searchable on the interwebs. Iraqi airforce wasn't small, unless compared to the U.S. or Soviet Union at the time. And yes I agree a battle for Taiwan's freedom against china won't be a walk in the park.
You can with the new model in a two circle fight you can cut the turn for one turn but you will lose massive ground in the next turn. Hornets on the deck in a two circle fight with a Viper are most likely losing.
Full Video: ruclips.net/video/Yb-PXpj0tP8/видео.html
The F-16 is out rated by the Hornet and 2 other aircraft, it is very comparable to 4 other aircraft in 2 circle rate performance. Watch the full video to find out which ones!
ruclips.net/video/1LQWSELP4pc/видео.htmlsi=oGjjz-mQ_3sWi84r
It’s because the F-16 used in DCS is the small intake version. The flight model is very realistic and if it was the large intake variant, then yes, it would outrate the F-18
@@MuteSpider63393 Can you give me any real life documentation or source about existence of different size of intake variants for the F16C Block 50 and showing the flight performance difference between these variants
@@j0xx02 this isn't war thunder... Lol
@@j0xx02 yes, do u have a discord? I have separate EM diagrams that prove it as well as pictures of the literal intakes
Time to leak some documents
Whoa chill.. this isnt the war thunder forums
@@croskerkwas literally about to comment this lol
@@betaakey haha
@@croskerkdoesn't matter if they claim realism we'll give them realism
@@croskerkGotta do for both WT and DCS
this is literally the only and biggest con of the f16 in dcs for me, but it hurts 😭
It is still a very good all around aircraft! It by far has the fastest acceleration.
Sadly it's true. Hornet at 360 to 380 knots walks all over a Viper and it shouldn't! I hope the balance is fixed .. I'm a Hornet guy but I want realism.
@@GunniesLetsFlyVFR I like the laid back commentary in your videos! We should have some fights on DCS Dogfighters sometime!
@Tabs_Original Anytime :) I am usually on 2pm GMT if that helps .. sometimes 5am GMT. Look forward to catching you. What's your DCS handle?
@GunniesLetsFlyVFR It's just 'Tabs' see you online at some point!
To all you Viper maintainers out there:
ITS JUST A GAME. DON'T LEAK DOCUMENTS AND THROW AWAY YOUR CAREER.
At least we all learned something from that guy. Took one for the team. Edit: I meant "what not to do" not from the leaked docs.
Didn't the F-16A Block 5, 10 and 15 Standard Flight Characteristics get leaked in the War Thunder forums in 2023 though?
@@fernandomarques5166 Idk, probably. It happens so often now I can't possibly remember every time.
Don't listen to him.. Leak it! Leak it! Leak it! Leak it! 😈
I mean apparently the specs in game are real.
The fact that you're that close to each other is a sign that something is terribly wrong
It’s called ACM
From what I can tell it's a dog fight, no missiles on either, just guns
Fairly common in DCS.. two planes fly past each other and then turn to engage in the fight.
What about the F16 VS the mig 28,
@@Dud3itsj3ff ye, but it's only really a thing in pre-made matches, wouldn't happen in combat sim
My interpretation is that the F-16 is a fast fighter, and the hornet is a slow fighter. It's easier to bleed speed than it is to gain speed, so the hornet usually comes out on top in a slow speed fight.
F-18 E model and F-16s have almost identical speeds
@@brandonhill2183That’s like saying a Toyota Camry and a Porsche 911 have the same speed, while true there’s a lot more to performance than that.
@@tim4570 oh stop. I'm answering in relation to the initial comment. I didn't start talking about other performance parameters. Get off your soap box
@@brandonhill2183 Yeah so was I, henceforth me saying they perform better in different aspects. Unless you’re saying you responded to the wrong comment
@tim4570 you were not. You replied to me mentioning things I never talked about. Are you hearing voices?
I went to college in Charleston, and the F-16’s from McEntire AB, and the Hornets from MCAS Beaufort would often do BCM right over campus. It would almost always start as a flight of 4 vipers being trailed by 4 hornets, then suddenly everyone would break at once and it normally took about 7 seconds for the 16’s to get behind their hornets and kill them
I freaking love the vipers from Mcentire. Got to see the base a year ago and it was awesome.
Everyone fighter pilot I’ve talked to and all the docs out there agree with you and tell a different story than DCS. The viper is an amazing rate fighter and should always beat a hornet in 2 circle rate fighter. Maybe in a 1 circle the f-18 can bleed enough speed and swing its nose w ITS -high AOA CHEAT CODE- LEX leading edge extensions that look like vestigial canards. Both jets are actually really cool and very unique. It seems the Navy however needs a replacement for the F14 now that near-peer dangers exist around the globe. The F35 doesn’t seem to have what it takes as a pure air superiority fighter (it isn’t one and wasn’t intended to be). There will be times we can’t rely on AWACS and we need something that’s blazing fast, with loads of fuel and the biggest, baddest radars/sensors etc. in a massive nose cone and even aft end up radar. Mach 1.6 and 7.5 G’s just won’t be enough against the newest gen 4.5/5 (maybe soon even gen 6) fighter jets. How cool would it be if the SR-72 was somehow carrier capable. I don’t know the size/dimensions but clearly this is unlikely to be the case. But Imagine if it was and was super-stealthy with an f-22 sized RCS & had 6 AIM-260’s (when available) as the tip of the fighter wing spear.
@@utubemewatchif you play falcon bms you will experience the same thing that pilots observers and the data sheets lead you to believe. Take a clean block 50 at 400 knots plug the burner and pull all the way back. In dcs the plane mushes into the air lazily. The first time you do it in bms it is shocking the way it violently accelerates while holding 9gs. Its so easy to cricitze the f35. Untill you then take that same f16 out on any kind of multirole mission. With 2 bags 2x 120s 2x aim9 targeting pod ecm pod and finally whatever ordinance your going to employ, all of a sudden the once incredebly athletic aircraft is slow draggy and lethargic. It climbs slowly and at cruise at altitude it struggles to hold 350+ knots without after burner. When before it would easily sit around 500+. With so much hung off the outside all its performance is destroyed. It doesn't hold energy even in a straight line and it bleeds airspeed violently in a turn. The tables are turned in the f35s favor once the aircraft actually have to go into combat.
@@memememine1 I didn’t know that about the f-35 v fully decked out f-16. How does the STOVL variant of the f-35 compare to the f-35A in the same situation?
I just read about the big upgrades for f-22. One of them involve stealthy pylons to carry external fuel tanks - so if the tanks are dumped for a WVR dogfight (which probably shouldn’t happen) the pylons won’t add drag nor scratch the stealthy RCS (like they currently do). I suppose these would be available for f-35. But still, this $72ish billion upgrade for F22 wouldn’t happen unless the NGAD project was far from completion & they felt F-35 wasn’t sufficient in a near-peer war against China for example. And F-22 airfields are too far away from China w/out extra fuel. Also, I wonder if the F22 requires alterations to carry the upcoming aim-260-a missile the f22 will need in order to maintain its qualitative edge against the J20 for example, which China already has in greater quantities than the U.S. has f22’s.
@@utubemewatchIf an F 35 is getting into a dogfight? Something is wrong.
The newest Block coming up for the 35 should make it even better performing. Forgot the exact improvement stated by Sandboxx but it was impressive. Can't recall if it was power or just more efficient.
Anyway the F 35 is fully suited to attacking and defending air space. I heard it is way better at dog fighting than people think, but what does that even mean.
Only the F 35a has a gun. Gotta take that into account.
Either way the F 35 is meant to be a stealth boat with the best sensors on a fighter. It is meant to kill BVR, and then retreat most likely. Or work with other aircraft.
The f16 can take 9Gs but the hornet takes 7.5Gs. Skill issue 💀💀
Hornets can pull 9Gs just like the F16 the F16 and F18 went head to head in development and design and had to meet the same criteria including 9G pulls.
@@jamescrow8999YF17 and F/A-18C are different airframes
Hahaha! Paddle switch go brrrrrr!
They are both 9g rated fighters. The fa18 is a newer plane reguardless... But the biggest difference in why the f16 is better than an f18, it's cheap. Like to an extreme degree vs an fa18. We are talking a 2 to 1 cost difference...
@@SimanSlivar 18 is not 9g rated. Provide a source to the contrary
the Patrick Bateman and Jennifer Lawrence parts made me Lol
“It’s not the plane, it’s the pilot.”
-Top Gun Maverick
F-16 needs to play a perfect game, F-18 needs to mess up for it to be possible. So annoying certain larger RUclipsrs push this false narrative that the f-16 is good, which doesnt bring attention to the problem that needs fixing
*Cough* *Cough* Growling Sidewinder
@@Acrophobia2 indeed
When I see a Viper I relax and can just toy with them. It's nose authority is rival to an 18 wheeler doing a u-turn.
@@Acrophobia2tbf that man has outrated f-22s in the two circle fight with a f-16 so I’d see why that misconception is there and he’s also explained multiple times that he capitalizes off of the pilots mistakes
@@galendetta2334 yes the viper is still pretty good but it is definitely underperforming compared to real life.
Fun fact the F16 out turned the F18 in the mock dogfights of the LWF competition in the early 70s. Leaving the legendary Col Boyd to be perplexed - he thought the 18 with two engines should win but pilots reported that, not so much winning, but escaping via the tight turning radius (buttonhook turn they called it). See EM theory and such and so forth
Cant even outrate JF-17
Yeah that surprised me a lot!
The J-17 is a pretty decent fighter for sure.
All ya gotta do to beat the JF is stay in full burner for half a second and it’ll run out of fuel chasing you.
Yeah but its ass (the jf17 not the f16)
“It’s not the plane, it’s the pilot” holds a LOT of truth here. The F-18 clearly is pulling hard to bleed a lot of speed, not really a conventional rate fight.
Fr?? The f-16 has a beastly turn rate irl
the fact that you have to watch the short twice
once to watch the dogfight
once to watch the converstation
F/A-18 wins in one circle fights and F-16 wins in two circle fights
Not in DCS unfortunately. It should.
@@CramcrumBrewbringer Actually it does in DCS and I see it all the time when Growling Sidewinder uses an F-16. Find his channel and watch his videos. He is a skilled DCS pilot who understand Energy management. He almost ALWAYS forces rate fights (two-circle) with opponents when he flies the F-16 and WINS.
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This tells me that those who complaining about the rate fight ability of the F-16 do not understand energy management. They are likely always trying to pull the F-18 into their HUD and thus lose all their speed instead of being patient and letting the F-16 do what it prefers and does best. RATE FIGHT.
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The F-18 has amazing nose control and can often times cut into the circle in a rate fight to point the nose at you if you are not careful. But if they miss the shots, they will be SLOIW.
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Its more than just the plane. It is situational awareness and understanding how to use your energy properly.
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It sounds to me more like the ones here trying to claim the F-16 cannot outrate a hornet, just do not properly understand how to pilot the F-16 and so try to make the claim that the F-16 cannot rate fight the F-18 in DCS. Perhaps you should learn your plane better. Growling Sidewinder understand that when rate fighting the hornet with the F-16 you want to keep your speed at minimum 350 but you also do not want your speed to be too high which would make your circle wider.
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If you do not believe me, go watch his videos. As he dogfights he explains EVEYTHING. He actually educates people and does not just complain that the game hampers the abilities of the plane.
Viper is an energy fighter a two circule fighters. F18 is a rate fighter
@@FranciscoPartidas A two circle fight is a rate fight. A one circle fight is nose to nose, a two circle is nose to tail and you are trying to outrage your opponent, thus a two circle is a rate fight. An F-18 would much prefer a once circle fight, nose to nose, because of the F-18s great ability to point the nose especially at slow speeds. You do not want to be at slow speeds in a two circle rate fight. Either fight has a lot to do with energy management. I just think you were a little confused about what a one circle and two circle engagements are.
@@onegemini420 as far as I know, an INE circule fight is when both planes turn at the same dirección, a two circule fight planes departs to opposite direction. In this tye of fight the One whos turns faster wins .
I’ve outrated my friends with a tomcat vs the f16 multiple times 😂, it’s kinda crazy how that’s possible but as the tomcat not complaining. Most of the time I’m fighting blackouts more then the planes capability’s
Oh yeah that basically every jet at its ideal rate speed! Battling blackout more than your opponent lol
People under estimate the F14s dog fighting due to it size even when it out turns so for the main fighters in real life sims the us ran the F14 won in a 1v4 against F15s you know the same F15 that has 104 to 0 KD
love these videos tabs, introducing alot of people to dcs!
I'd heard the Hornet will beat a 16 in a 1 circle, but didn't also know it could outrate the 16 in DCS. That sounds like a bug
Growlingsidewinder would disagree.
Maybe you two should do a collaboration video.
GS could outrate a f18 in a b52 lol
Actually, GS did a video on this proving the F-18 to be the better rate fighter.
A lot of his F-16 videos are pre-patch.
@@cree71cjmwhen? I wanna see it-he literally always talks about how “the f-16 is the king of dogfighting because it can stuff arm the bandit into rate fighting”. PLEASAEDE-this makes my brain hurt seeing it fail.
@@KematianGaming He pays his opponents for better videos lmao
This is fantastic. I can't stop watching this over and over and over. ... If I weren't already married, I would make these words my wedding vow, seriously!
Edit: and I can't even figure out what Drew is blubbering about!
The paddle button looking real nice right now
had i known this beforehand i would've bought the F18 instead
Frankly the F16 is so much more fun to fly than the F18 anyways. I think more people need to make their plane choices based off what they like more instead of what's the most OP in a simulator.
@@noscopesallowed8128 yea, things i love are the acceleration and colored radar display, maybe it was the right choice after all
I bought f16 bc it was my favorite
My experience would say otherwise
Pilot skill is a massive part of a dogfight! If the hornet pilot doesn't hit their speeds, any viper pilot worth their salt will walk all over them 🙂
@@Tabs_Originali’ve seen your vid and tried to fly the hornet at the recommended speed at sea level, using the paddle switch but I keep blacking out with the G effet. Any idea what I should be doing instead?
@MB-cv5pz yeah 420 is too fast. i pinned a comment saying those numbers are the max performance of the jets and the pilot may not be able to deal with it. I forgot to mention it in the video, my bad man, sorry i didnt get the point across better. 380 - 390 would be the speed to aim for and lower it to 360 - 370 as your fuel nears empty.
@@Tabs_Original o7 my man, appreciate coming back to me!
Depends on the pilot
Yeah because rate is a skill thing lol…
Nobody in this day and age is shooting bullets at each other with these aircraft.
Yes all the time in DCS. I mean it might as well be called DFS dog fight simulator.
its a game 😂
with equal pilots, but knowledge and skill make all the difference in DCS
Hornet is ferocious after that last FM update.
This is because hornets are terrifying insects that swarm falcons.
F-22 enters irl chat and kills the earth with pure unadulterated hatred
Top secret information I'm afraid top priority don't answer that question
Viper simps gonna cope hard. Reminder, we are talking about ingame performance, not real life.
In a game that is *supposed* to mimic real life, this is annoying.
@@jacobmccandles1767 Well, unfortunately, there is no true "competition" among combat flight sim games... If you really love the Viper, go check Falcon BMS. DCS has bad points as well as good points.
@@jacobmccandles1767when you load in it literally says for entertainment purpose only
@@BepisTime yep. Sure does.... and that's okay, too.
My experience would say otherwise. If a viper is below 400 they’re not a good pilot. It’s all about pilot skill. F-18 reverses? Go vertical. F-18 can’t rate better, doesn’t have the thrust to weight and pulling that AoA to maintain a turn is going to turn your aircraft into a large airbrake.
Nice top gun maverick livery/camo
If this was war thunder we already had the documents for it
We aint gonna talk about that person that got flung after getting hit by the truck
DCS fixed this
The F18 is considered a super maneuverable fighter jet while the F16 is a highly maneuverable aircraft.
I've noticed that Hornets do really well in premeditated dogfights. It's a real hot rod when it's slick and the energy state is right. But in the wild, if a fight starts BVR and goes to the merge, Hornets get punked like newborn baby giraffes. The Hornet does not take kindly to having weapons under the wings, and the G limiter really hurts the first turn when the merge happens at BVR speeds. I'd go so far as to say I've probably taken down more 9X-carrying Hornets with a post-merge 530D than I have been shot down by them in the wild.
But that was a great evade at the end! 👀
Look at you, just trying to get fights started 😂
I dont play DCS but if i did i would be an f15 main
Dale Earnhart car was always low on horsepower, but he won race after race. Pilot will determine winner, not plane.
And fun fact for everybody. There is a non-naval version of the f-18 that the Air Force almost went with before choosing the F-16. That version went by the designation of YF-17
Honestly if I played this game I’d main either the mig 29 or the jas 39 grippen if either of em are in DCS
Mig 29 is in DCS
that explains how Finns won against US pilots in competition few years back
Well one word for the F16: BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT
They count out rate them in real life either. The hornets greatest strength is its ability to fly slowly and turn inside of other aircraft, then have enough power to pull out of it. It’s also also the reason why the F-22 needed thrust vectoring to do the same thing.
That doesn’t make any sense, if you turn slow you’d just let the other guy rip around right behind you. you wouldn’t just sit inside of their circle, in a rate fight you’d need to be fast and able to pull g at a sustained rate.
Beating the F18 with an F16 is all about energy management. Rate Fighting vs Radius Fighting. ;)
ruclips.net/video/WqqjFezUuf4/видео.html
Viper has very narrow envelope against Hornet. Only better at bleeding from 480-ish to 400 in one turn. Hornet can still escape it into sub 350 KIAS anyway. You don’t wanna merge with Hornet.
The hornet used to have better acceleration. Engines and weights have changed, although the GE F400 series should still throttle up faster.
seeing that vulcan fire and watching people in wt fly straight through that us infuriating
You can pull circuit breaker that give you the total control of your vertical stab meaning you can pull up to 13G on the hornet
What the he** is DCS?… “Dogfight Control Situations”?-“Death Cloak Strategy”?- “Dang Commander’s Strategy”?
And Hornets must be F18s?
The new update for F-16s makes them heavy hitters again.
it's because at close combat like that, they can't out turn a hornet at lower speeds. when the speeds pic up, it's another story.
Part of me wants to know what a Super Hornet version of the Falcon would look like, and no, the XL doesn't count.
Always remember if you want the best dog fighter look at what the one that no matter what everyone is comparing everything to and take that one.
the f18 has some of the highest AOA ratings irl so makes sense
No it doesn’t, high aoa means less energy over a sustained period. High aoa is for slow fights not rating. they way the f18 flies in dcs is not correct. It doesn’t bleed energy like it’s supposed to.
@@RW-zn8vy yes, true, but the f18a was designed for having high aoa, and since it doesn't stall all fast, it could probably turn faster than a f16 flying past it
@@haberjon00o that’s good if you’re using missiles, it’s not good for a gun fight. Because all of the energy is wasted on one go.
@@RW-zn8vy he got the kill though so he could just regain energy after flying down
@@haberjon00o by the time you do that, your opponent be behind you if they’re in an f16. But in dcs the hornet is horribly modeled
One of those two jets has an invalid flight model then 😂. The F-18 is notorious for sucking past the first turn of a rate fight.
Yeah i agree why is the f-16s cant dogfight a non dogfight f-18 plane when the f-16 is meant for dogfighting just makes no sense
İdk
F18 is made for dogfights, although I think its optimised for turning radius rather than turn rate. So in a 2 circle fight like shown in the video, the f16 should still win, but the f18 isn't a non dogfight plane
Simple solution, don’t get in the rate fight with hornets.
The hornet was not outrating the viper, it simply had enough energy to use its higher AoA limit to cut into the circle and pull lead for the shot. And it wouldn't surprise me if the viper was too slow.
Watch the full video 🙂
I thought this was war thunder for the whole video
Guys just fly like me, a batshit crazy noob and you can confuse your enemy into overshooting
If it ain't broke don't fix it lol
I hate fighting in visual range with cannons in hornet against old mig 21 bis. Those old planes hard to get behind.
Don’t make me do it… ain’t no way.
“Flight Controls, Flight Controls”….
Very good subject! The reason why reality is upside down to DCS or DCS is upside down to reality every now and then and people who play DCS, mostly ignorant or simply without the true info about this and that, being more or less to blame for it when they start opening their mouth and talk without knowledge, will be more prone to believe in DCS than in reality or in the real aircraft performances, such as it this great example. IRL, the F-16 is the best constant turner you'll ever meet in AA engagements. It's just so well engineered aerodynamically that it can sustain the highest turn rate at a lift to drag and thrust to drag ratio like no other modern fighter jet in the world. Neighter the Su-27/35, nor the new MIG-35 can sustain a constant turn rate as well as the F-16. The F-18 in reality has a joke kind of maximum constant turn rate compared to what we all witness in DCS. This is only due to it's overrated engines thrust in DCS, and not just for full afterbuner, but also in 100%MIL power as it can reach even 1.14Mach with 4 missiles. The real Hornet can barely reach 0.99M perfectly clean. By calculation and true data, the constant turn rate (and the instantaneous as well) depend on the following factors: lift to drag, lift to weight (turn Gs) and thrust to drag. The thrust to weight is mostly useful for vertical and forward acceleration. It is not a reliable aspect for determining a good constant turn rate, and even that is actually poor in reality for the F-18C and E and just barely goes past 1. Because the F-16 is actually among the few jet fighters in DCS done accurately in terms of performances while the F-18C having at least 2 degrees per second higher than in reality due to the too high engines thrust, it's no wonder it's more and more the most chosen dogfighter in DCS. Players just like to win no matter the cause or what is true and just. When enough true reality lovers will start asking ED to fix the F-18's overrated engines thrust, reality will indeed be a step further for DCS.
The same goes with the Mirage M2000 which also proves the same shit with overpowered engine thrust, yet besides that, the M2000 also gets an exaggerated lift whenever the speed drops below 400km/h even though the engine thrust and AoA remains the same. Many things are wrong in DCS but we like it like that
I like this channel
Thank you, that's great to hear!
Because the hornet achieved something the F-16 couldn't even with 1 engine being very light weight and having a crazy thrust to weight ratio.
Should rethink this after the new flcs viper update.
AS Long as the f16's maintain their energy, they are pretty deadly, get below 250knots in the Viper and the playing field tilts to the Hornet. Low speed nose authority makes it probably the best low energy fighter sans thrust vectoring there is.
Isn't it the opposite IRL?
Yup
F16's have a smaller turning circle than my truck...
Surprised they don't fix this as dcs is supposed to be a simulator.
F-16= best sustained turn rate of any fourth gen fighter
F-18 = better instantaneous turns and low speed nose authority. It was a navy plane after all .
meanwhile, we poor sods who drive BaE Hawk around....
It makes sense, max AoA on the F18 is higher than the F16
Whenever I’m fighting a 18, I feel like they will beat me no matter which plane I’m in…
Some classified documents would clear that up in no time
As I drone pilot I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about…but I’ve taken some pretty videos of mountains before!
Air to air engagements are extremely rare these days anywhare in the world. There are wars being fought all over the place but very very few air to air engagements. Almost everytime a western aircraft goesvup against a Russian aircraftcwe all know the outcome yes there was one F18 lost to a MIG 35 during the gulf war. It was killed with a long range missile shot, no dog fighting envolved.
It’s talking about dcs
No shit, because none of those wars feature highly capable air forces. You think the same would happen in a Taiwan strait conflict or something else of that manner?
Also, the MiG-35 didn’t exist during the Gulf War.
@@jonathanpfeffer3716Iraq had a modern battle hardened airforce that was the largest in the region(they even had mig 29 fulcrums, my favorite plane as a kid). We're talking 1990, they had just bombed the shit out of Iran's airforce.
Iraq got 4 or 5 verified kills, and they were feared by coalition forces. It's easily searchable on the interwebs. Iraqi airforce wasn't small, unless compared to the U.S. or Soviet Union at the time. And yes I agree a battle for Taiwan's freedom against china won't be a walk in the park.
Phony. No trained Falcon driver will put himself in the same plane of motion to allow for an overhead shot.
Everybody knows the best dog fighter is Michael Vick.....
It's not the plane, it's the pilot
You wanna bet?
*goes on a losing streak of 5 active on 6*
The F-16 can fly circles around the super bug
F16 and su27 are severely underpowered in DCS
I don't know, they do on my game. Growling Sidewinders and Longshkt's as well.
Was I the only one who thought it was war thunder?
This was the result of some improper specs put in for each aircraft and has been corrected.
DCS logic:
Lower # = less gooder
Sure it does as long as you maintain your proper rate speed in the two circle.
I wish they had this game for ps5
We have the heaviest viper and one of the lightest C hornets. It's just bad luck. All the extra weight of the block 50 for SEAD weighs it down
This is why the F-15 is the best fighter the US has ever produced
That confirms my suspicions about DCS, it is not an accurate depiction of fighter capabilities. Nonetheless a cool game.
You can with the new model in a two circle fight you can cut the turn for one turn but you will lose massive ground in the next turn. Hornets on the deck in a two circle fight with a Viper are most likely losing.
It's not the plane... it's the pilot. Get in a dogfight with Growling Sidewinder behind the stick and you won't win.
I have seen both the f-16 and f-18 do a full circle within 200 yards at over 300 knots
dcs player when plane bad: oh well. war thunder players:
Hornet cobra button go burrr
I dunno, I get the feeling this guy could go in the F18 vs GS in the F16 and he’d lose 9
to 10 out of 10 times.
Maybe don’t try to fight the hornet in a rate fight lol.