Because she was SA'd by all those men, she did not want her children, especially a daughter, to endure that type of trauma. Death was more merciful than becoming a slave again.
What is even sadder is that Sethe wasn't charged with murder upon her arrest, because Blacks were still viewed as non-human property in the same way livestock was considered. So we was only charged with property damage instead.
Read the book as a teen…saw the movie as a young mother. Yes…I would spare my children and prevent myself from working and birthing to death for somebody else’s profit. We’ll be back. Just not tomorrow.
I can't say for sure what I would do in Sethe's shoes. But I can say that I completely understand why she made that choice. The conditions our ancestors suffered under slavery were utterly brutal and inhumane. Considering my shaky mental health, I may have snapped myself.
What's right?? We cant even measure it in our present tense state of mind. Sethe is so traumatized, she knows exactly what her babies face going back to Sweet Home & Schoolteacher's boys. The tree on her back from being beaten, her milk being stolen, seeing what happened to the Pauls, Halle being missing, giving birth to Denver, and then tasting those 28 days of freedom with Baby Suggs. She saw no other choice than to free her babies from Hell on Earth going back to the plantation, it's not like she could negotiate another option. I can only empathize. I see a different type of strength in Sethe. Great discussion!!
What’s right So I am listening to the audio book now. I’m on chapter 11. Very deep and emotional read. I also watched Toni Morrison’s documentary and she spoke about how the only person that could determine what Sethe’s punishment should be was the dead daughter. I thought that was a interesting way to look at it.
This movie terrified me as a kid, but once I got older I read the book which is truly amazing!! I look at the movie sort of in the same vein as "lord of the rings" ( I know, WAY different stories BUT) when you read the book, there are so many things that could never fit into a movie, and the characters take shape in a personal way in our minds that could never be replicated on screen. A book makes it personal in a way that doesnt translate into optical representation. I agree, it should have definetly been a miniseries, or in todays day and age, a Hulu or Netflix type release. A heart breaking but epic story for sure!!
What’s Right It's not letting me post my complete comment so I think I will have to break it down. 1) 9:20 I can understand what Heit is saying. When reading Beloved I often asked the women in my family who were mothers about Sethe’s situation. All of them said they wouldn’t have done what Sethe did, but they also made sure to say that they did not experience the level of brutality that someone like Sethe (in real life Margaret Garner) did. Basically as people living in the 21st Century we have the luxury of never having to make such a decision. I relate it to the Kerry Washington line in the Hulu Series Little Fires Everywhere where she tells the white lady “You didn’t make good choices, you had good choices”. I think that can be applied to all of us who read about Margaret Garner’s story. 2) 14:58 The man’s name is Stamp Paid. He actually develops a special bond with Denver because of this and began to refer to her as “his heart.” 3) 15:20 Insanity probably definitely played part of it. As I think anyone who would go to the extreme that she did must be suffering from something. However, I think when it comes to this there was just too much that aligned perfectly for Sethe to justify in her head as to why she needed to end those kids: 1. Sethe views her children as her “best thing”. They are the part of her that she feels most proud of. If schoolteacher were to have taken them back and forced them into slavery he would have ruined in her eyes the “best part of her” and in Sethe’s eyes that could not happen. Ending those kids allowed Sethe to keep some part of herself untainted by slavery. 2. It’s no secret that Sethe is quite furious about what was done to her during her time as Sweet Home. As stated in the other video. Sethe told Beloved that she was just trying to “out hurt the hurter.” So when it comes to her ending her children I also feel that it was also some sort of revenge against her enslavers. If you recall Schoolteacher regarded the slaves as animals. Sethe ending her kids could have been her saying “I can show you an animal”. It’s almost like it was a f*ck you to schoolteacher. 3. As Cheri and Toni Morrison pointed out it was a claiming of ownership. As you both pointed out in the system that Sethe was born into she legally was not a parent. It was often insisted that female slaves have children but they had no say so in what happened in that child’s life. Sethe ending those kids would make her the final determinant of their lives. In Toni Morrison’s words, “Those children are mine, I shall do with them as I please” 4. Then there is the trauma that she endured with watching her mother be h*nged for trying to escape slavery, schoolteacher and his boys violently assaulting her, her being brutally whipped while pregnant, and her having to abandon her husband. So when it comes to Sethe I believe she felt that she couldn’t let schoolteacher destroy the part of herself that she was proud of, she wanted to enact some sort of revenge against him and her enslavers for brutalizing her, she experienced a high degree of trauma that damaged her mental psyche, and finally she wanted to have some sort of say in what became of her kids and so sending them to the afterlife just seemed like the most logical option.
4) 18:35 From my understanding the town’s people are former enslaved as well. I know Ella (played by Irma P. Hall who was the grandmother in Soul Food) was a former slave who was held captive by a white man and his son who took turns r-wording her. There is also Stamp Paid who is a former slave as well. He is the one that saves Denver from being killed. He calls himself Stamp Paid because while enslaved his wife was r-worded by their enslavers and he could do nothing about it. For this reason, he sees this as a sacrifice clearing him of all future debts. But when it comes to why the community feels so disgusted with Sethe’s actions it’s a few things. In the novel it is explained that when Sethe arrived at 124 Baby Suggs was so happy that she threw a celebration with all sorts of food. This extravaganza offended the community and they began to hold a grudge against her. So out of anger they stopped keeping a look out for white people coming into the community and that is why schoolteacher was able to get to Sethe without her being alerted. The community knows deep down inside that had they not allowed their petty grudge against Baby Suggs stop them from keeping a look out. They would have more than likely saw schoolteacher coming and they would have been able to warn Sethe he was coming after them. Beloved death is somewhat their fault as well. That’s why in the novel they felt it was necessary to exorcise and why they are successful at it. As the trauma has been healed. They made up for not sticking by Sethe and her family and Sethe went after (what she thought) was her captors and not her children this time. But I say all this to say that I feel them viewing Sethe with such disgust allows them to ignore the part they played in Beloved’s death. Another part is the whole love thing. I don’t think the townspeople understand the love that Sethe has for her children. I remember when she first made it to town when Ella saw her caring her child the first thing that said to her was “it’s dangerous to love something that much”. Even when it comes to Paul D it is said, “He would keep the rest where it belonged: in that tobacco tin buried in his chest where a red heart used to be. Its lid rusted shut”. So I also think there disdain comes from a confusion as well. How could they ever understand a mother’s love for her children when they decided a long time ago that price of love was too much to bear and so it was better to do without it. When you think about it Sethe is really only person in the town that still chooses to love. And when have seen when you’re the only person who is different in a community of like-minded individuals people tend to view you with disdain. 5) 24:59 I can see that point because in the movie. When the town women are discussing Beloved at the church meeting. One of the women states something along the lines of “I don’t mind a little communicating between worlds, but this is a violation”. Which makes sense as all of them were former slaves. If they allow Sethe to be continuously punished for a choice she made as a result of slavery than what is to stop them from being punished for choices they made as a result of slavery. 6) 34:50 I think this is what makes the novel so brilliant. As it forces Black Americans to evaluate our status in American society. It makes you ask yourself am I really as revolutionary as I think I am? If push comes to shove would I stand for up for my liberation? And if the answer is no, than for people who hold the “I am not my ancestors” mentality you will realize not you’re weaker than your ancestors. This is why I would say Heit is right. I have come across plenty of Black folks that will completely let white folks play all in their face but have the audacity to fix their mouths and say “we’re not our ancestors”. It reminds me of how I saw someone on Twitter with a shirt that read “Stop saying we’re not our ancestors, THEY revolted, YOU complain”. I think what we can learn from this is how disrespectful a saying such as “we are not our ancestors” is to those who actually had to endure and slavery. Although Beloved does show a lot of the pain and torture they had to endure it also exemplifies their resilience.
7) 40:05 It was Sula. 8) 41:25 I would love to hear commentary’s on Do The Right Thing, Crooklyn, and He’s Got Game. Spike Lee’s relationship to religion in his films would be an interesting topic as well. 9) 44:30 Great connection! This makes sense because in his manifesto “Call it Afro-Surreal” D. Scott Miller in bullet five states, “Afro-Surrealists strive for rococo: the beautiful, the sensuous, and the whimsical. We turn to Sun Ra, Toni Morrison, and Ghostface Killa. We look to Kehinde Wiley, whose observation about the black male body applies to all art and culture: "There is no objective image. And there is no way to objectively view the image itself." So you’re right Beloved is one of the forbearers for the Afro-Surreal movement. 10) 44:51 D Scott Miller published his manifesto “Call it Afro-Surreal” on May 19, 2009 so Toni Morrison’s novel Beloved was not called a Afro-Surrealist work when it came out but it is widely considered a parent to the movement. Much like how Gospel is a parent of R&B. 11) 46:09 Yeah Toni Morrison was the queen of getting straight to the point. Reminds me of how in her novel Jazz, it starts out, “Sth, I know that woman. She used to live with a flock of birds on Lenox Avenue. Know her husband, too. He fell for an eighteen-year-old girl with one of those deepdown, spooky loves that made him so sad and happy he shot her just to keep the feeling going When the wornan, her name is Violet, went to the funeral to see the girl and to cut her dead face they threw her to the floor and out of the church. She ran, then, through all that snow, and when she got back to her apartment she took the birds from their cages and set them out the windows to freeze or fly, including the parrot that said, "I love you." This one paragraph you had at least five movie scenes in it. This is why I’m still mad that they chose to make adapt Beloved into a movie instead of a miniseries. There’s just so much they had to leave out. This is why I say that if Hollywood were to do a remake of Beloved ever I really wouldn’t be angry. As long as they got a Black film director and writer who is familiar with her works (like Julie Dash or Kasi Lemmons) to adapt it as a miniseries I would watch it. Since Cheri had said it requires further discussion I think the Paul D and Beloved in the shed scene deserves a breakdown. 12) Final Thoughts I had once saw an interview with Toni Morrison where she had said that writers are influenced by contemporary events and that many of the themes of Beloved are quite contemporary. This made me think about when the novel was made. Beloved was published in 1987 and was written during the 80’s. She also noted that she wrote about things that she saw going on in the community. And what was going on in the community, when she wrote Beloved? The War on Drugs. When many Black families were being ripped apart by the government and placed into the private prison system (which many of us see as a new form of slavery). I bring this up because I noticed in the novel that Beloved pushes all the males out of the house. The ghost is what causes Sethe’s two songs Howard and Bugler to run away and it is Beloved who causes Paul D to leave. I don’t think this was intentional. It’s no secret that the prison industrial complex took many Black fathers out of the home. And helped further the Black people don’t know their dad’s stereotype (even though most people I know all had a dad in their life, myself included). So I think that is kind of how the story’s themes relate to real life. In addition to this, in this specific novel there seems to be a difference in the way men and women (or at least Sethe and Paul D) process trauma. Paul D has chosen to completely forsake love while Sethe chooses to bathe in it. Some might say that Paul D has chosen not to love at all and Sethe loves too much. I think this can serve as a commentary on how some Black Men and Women process trauma and I say some not just to avoid pathologizing Black people but also because in the novel she wrote after this Jazz (1992) it’s actually the exact opposite it’s about a man who loves to hard and a women who chooses not to love at all. With all this being said, I think you may want to consider making a video about how the themes of Beloved correlate with The War on Drugs. Great video and I enjoyed the discussion. If you haven’t read it. I would recommend reading Jazz by Toni Morrison. As Toni Morrison has stated that she feels it’s her best novel. Oh and thank you once again Cheri I truly appreciated the link🙏🏽.
You are so welcome and I was excited to see your thoughts early after reading your comments on the first video. You said so much! I need to unpack some of it. I haven't read Jazz, and you have convinced me that I should! There is so much to say on Beloved and I plan on having us discuss some of your comments in a future video! I hope this is okay with you. We'll use your screen name here on youtube or we can make it anonymous. Which ever you prefer...
@@HeitCheri Oh that’s great! I’m glad I was able to sell you on Jazz I hope you enjoy it. Unfortunately, Jazz is the one book you cannot find an unabridged audiobook narrated by Toni Morrison. The one they do have is abridged. Just thought I’d warn you. Also, you can use my screen name. I am completely fine with that. I’m very thankful that you see my comments as deserving of further discussion.
I’m a white girl & not a mother myself yet so no one has to listen to me, but I’m still gonna try to emphasize. Ideally I’d like to think I’d try escaping with my children again, but I also know so much will be out of my control by being stolen back. I assume a runaway enslaved woman would likely be immediately punished upon return & that would extend to her children just for cruelties sake. They may be immediately sold off to another plantation(s) to never see them again or know what horrors they faced. Possibly states away even deeper in the south. I like to believe that life no matter how terrible is always worth holding on to. But I know my own traumas are minuscule compared to Sethe & the very real women of history she was inspired by. A parent is not meant to only nurture their babies, but protect them. I can see why Sethe would believe her actions were in attempt to protect her babies. Especially during a whole PTSD episode triggered by the sight of that school teacher bastard. I know there were cases of parents that were Jewish & Romani in the holocaust that poisoned their own children & themselves knowing they were about to all be sent to the camps. I will say also though putting some empathy aside for the children that survived the attempted murders. I think they also have a right to be mad & conflicted by what she did, that shit takes years of therapy to come to terms with & was nonexistent for the time period obviously. Ideally I’d hope her boys would come back & forgive her, but I can’t blame them that they never do (assuming they’re still alive in the book/film’s world).
Thank you so much for your comment! Have you read Ta-Nehisi Coates' book that just came out? It's called "The Message". He discusses, among other things, the parallels that exist between the Holocaust and the treatment of enslaved African here in America. The part where you mentioned the idea of life being worth preserving really struck a chord with me because I generally agree. Nevertheless, I think this underscores the desperation someone who might do as Sethe did must have felt.
Sethe was also so _young!_ She likely chose one of them boys within a year of being there and started having those babies immediately. She also didn't have time to grow and mature living and born into hell. I feel for her through abd through... most of all the woman that inspired this story and her babies. I'd like to think I'd have done what she did but I likely would've not been strong and brave at all.
Honestly the killing of her child is not far fetched. There were slaves that would have rather drowned than become slaves. As a mother myself if I knew the sufferings of being a slave survival instinct would make you do that before someone else does. Is it right no but it’s the desperate approach is what the story is about. Also the fact the ghost is haunting the family is because the baby died alone and the mother’s will was never completed therefore she regretted it. It’s spiritual, it’s historical and it’s also human because our ancestors were stronger than we are and more desperate for freedom.
The question I kept asking myself was even if I determined that was the best course of action would I have the guts to do it? To me, that's a different question than whether it's a realistic action. -Cheri
In The Green Mile movie, when John Coffey dies, he tells the executioner, "Tell God, its a kindness you did" When I think about the insanity of slavery...smh It makes me chill to the bone.
I remember reading this book and watching this movie so long ago, but something about it just stays with you. I think if I was a mother....if I couldn't find a place to hide them (in time, I mean), I would contemplate doing the unthinkable, and that would be something I would have to live with for the rest of my life. A person's mind, their psyche, their soul, is their palace, their safe space, and their prison. Beloved never really left Sethe as we've seen in books and the movie, and I was just remembering how Beloved talked about the "place" she was in before she gained a physical form, and the "haunting", was just as bad according to her. But Sethe didn't think so, she thought it would be better than what she escaped from. All Sethe believed was that it would be a place free of suffering. I cannot say if as a mother this was the right thing or wrong thing to do, and I hope no one ever has to find themself in that position. It was a hard question to answer that was the truth.
This conversations remind me of the most frustrating day I had in college. We were talking about the Nat Turner rebellion and the white kids argued that he was mentally ill and evil because they hurt babies and that he thought God was speaking to him. I was just like how can you say that considering what they went through! You would do anything.
Yes I would have. 😢 Some Women do it everyday in present day society. Making the hard decision of terminating pregnancy because life wouldn’t be suitable for whatever they know their reasons are. Setha went through atrocities & circumstances we couldn’t even imagine! No matter how hard it is to be a woman / mother nowadays it Isn’t as hard as life was for her. 😢 🙏🏿
Chile i dont know. As a mom i couldn't imagine having to make that decision and its really unfortunate that it was a lose lose situation. I understand why she did it though and its heartbreaking.
I would have either went back willingly, or tried to hide the children as best as I could while giving myself away. Just thinking of the scenario has me frantic so I can only imagine how Sethe felt after killing one child; and she still had 4 more to take (including her own) 😓
As someone who does stand up to my boss I fully admit that I would have been on the back of that wagon with my kids lbvs I know I'm weak as hell a running joke I have with my friends is that if there ever was a zombie apocalypse I'm not a survivalist I'm going to die immediately lol
Whats right....i gree with Heit we can say anything, but we were not raised in that time we were not being treated the same. Thank goodness my ancestors paid the price so i wouldn't have to even think about doing anything like that. Child birth then is far different today than back then. I would die without ac today so i can't measure up to my ancestors in no way. I can't say what's right and i don't know if i would have the strength to do it
WHAT’S RIGHT!! I would love to see you guys cover the following Spike Lee movies: She’s Gotta Have It School Daze Do The Right Thing Mo Better Blues Jungle Fever Crooklyn Get On The Bus Clockers Girl 6 He Got Game Bamboozled
Great show you two! I don't know how the algorithm brought you to me, but I am glad it did. I think you both have some really interesting ideas and questions about this book. Regarding why Beloved is haunting Sethe, I wonder if it is a kind personification of subconscious doubt. Not because she did the wrong thing, but because it would be traumatizing to kill one of the kids, have the others survive and then live their lives. The demon is not necessarily Beloved but something that took advantage of the opening, shaping itself into the build of what Sethe could have subconsciously imagined Beloved to be like had she not succeeded. That said, I am likely just building my own fancies into the text. Regardless, you two are great hosts, and I would love to hear your thoughts on any Spike Lee movie.
I don't think i could of done what she did. I would have been on the back of the wagon with my 4 kids praying that Master keeps us together and doesn't sell me further south as punishment.
I didn’t understand until reading the book again as an adult. I definitely would have done what seethe did. I’m a deeply sensitive person so I know if I could spare my children from the type of trauma they went through I would have. She felt she had to in order to protect them. Her love was too thick because she’d would rather her child see the other side than be in harms way. If the other side would be freedom agency over her children and self I understand why she’d take it. I am saddened my ancestors had to endure such brutality, and I am thankful they were able to make it for me to be where I am today.
I would be interested in as many Beloved analyses as you’re inclined to make; there’s no such thing as too much discussion of this book or film, but especially I refer to the book, IMO :)
IAll I can say is I'm so thankful to God that I do not have to make this type of choice. Jesus Christ 🙏🏾 I am sure that the woman in real life had to grapple with that ! My God
I didn’t like the Toni Morrison quote at all. Although, I can understand why she would say it. She used current laws to word play against a character with no rights. Enslaved people “rights” were dictated by those that own them not on their personhood because they were not seen as people but property. I agree with Heit. The act of killing her daughter had nothing to do with right or wrong. It was more a judgment of instinct - motherly instinct. A mother’s instinct to have her child live regardless of the circumstances is supposed to supersede all- even logic. She wasn’t supposed to have the will power to do such a thing but she did. To them she did the most illogical thing that made the most sense. Because of this, they were afraid of her and left her alone…. what else could she do?
Loved the breakdown hiet and cheri you guys did that 👏! Lol i here the video but especially this comment you guys got it lit up in here lol i am so here for it this good everyone here bringing thier own interpretations miniatures breakdowns my thought on the breakdown of beloved there really is wrong or right interpretation you read the book watch the multiple times re watch it again and still miss something ! I myself ive seen the movie multiple times i remember when it first came out lol traumazine me as kid it was scary as hell! especially when the beloved character thandie newton who played her by the way wonderful did a wonderful job playing that character came on the scene, everything about her just scream demon demonic some type of monster ghost shapshiter thing that towards the end had to get exorcised out the house standing on the porch nude and all lol. There were alot of terrifying scenes in the movie everybody bought there a game
Its probably like a urbanized bootleg exorcist with slavery rascism sprinkle in my first thought back in the day when beloved first came out quite as its kept alot blk folk was saying how oprah did the beloved to spite or make her own version the color purple and it fail lol people still went out paid watch the color purple and liked it more til this day i think the main reason oprah still shame of doing the movie beloved is because of that expect alone another thing i wasnt surprised about the failure of the color purple the remake why not no remake of beloved the color purple is what elevated popularized whoopie acting career the movie was about whoopie who played celie
I definitely understand why she did it. But NOBODY knows the plans God has for peoples lives. She could have killed a great leader. So yes it was the right thing to do but she had no right to take another persons life. She doesn’t know what greatness she could have killed.
Please tell me yal know the movie review channel spooky rice 😭😭 I think yal use similar intro music and I always get so creeped out thinking about his content.
![Lethal Company Music Video 🎵 "Follow The Orders" [VERSION A]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QeooZB4Z7RA/mqdefault.jpg)
Because she was SA'd by all those men, she did not want her children, especially a daughter, to endure that type of trauma. Death was more merciful than becoming a slave again.
Also remember that she had two boys as well and she wanted to spare them from the life ahead on Sweet Home (or somewhere worse).
What is even sadder is that Sethe wasn't charged with murder upon her arrest, because Blacks were still viewed as non-human property in the same way livestock was considered. So we was only charged with property damage instead.
I looked up the woman it was based off of, in real life she did have a trial
Read the book as a teen…saw the movie as a young mother. Yes…I would spare my children and prevent myself from working and birthing to death for somebody else’s profit. We’ll be back. Just not tomorrow.
I can't say for sure what I would do in Sethe's shoes. But I can say that I completely understand why she made that choice. The conditions our ancestors suffered under slavery were utterly brutal and inhumane. Considering my shaky mental health, I may have snapped myself.
I agree... I understand. That's one point I really wanted to make without this judgement of Sethe because she really did snap on some level.
What's right?? We cant even measure it in our present tense state of mind. Sethe is so traumatized, she knows exactly what her babies face going back to Sweet Home & Schoolteacher's boys. The tree on her back from being beaten, her milk being stolen, seeing what happened to the Pauls, Halle being missing, giving birth to Denver, and then tasting those 28 days of freedom with Baby Suggs. She saw no other choice than to free her babies from Hell on Earth going back to the plantation, it's not like she could negotiate another option. I can only empathize. I see a different type of strength in Sethe. Great discussion!!
❤️
What’s right
So I am listening to the audio book now. I’m on chapter 11. Very deep and emotional read. I also watched Toni Morrison’s documentary and she spoke about how the only person that could determine what Sethe’s punishment should be was the dead daughter. I thought that was a interesting way to look at it.
I saw that interview and thought that was interesting as well... This notion that the person whom was harmed should determine what should happen.
This movie terrified me as a kid, but once I got older I read the book which is truly amazing!! I look at the movie sort of in the same vein as "lord of the rings" ( I know, WAY different stories BUT) when you read the book, there are so many things that could never fit into a movie, and the characters take shape in a personal way in our minds that could never be replicated on screen. A book makes it personal in a way that doesnt translate into optical representation. I agree, it should have definetly been a miniseries, or in todays day and age, a Hulu or Netflix type release. A heart breaking but epic story for sure!!
What’s Right
It's not letting me post my complete comment so I think I will have to break it down.
1) 9:20
I can understand what Heit is saying. When reading Beloved I often asked the women in my family who were mothers about Sethe’s situation. All of them said they wouldn’t have done what Sethe did, but they also made sure to say that they did not experience the level of brutality that someone like Sethe (in real life Margaret Garner) did. Basically as people living in the 21st Century we have the luxury of never having to make such a decision. I relate it to the Kerry Washington line in the Hulu Series Little Fires Everywhere where she tells the white lady “You didn’t make good choices, you had good choices”. I think that can be applied to all of us who read about Margaret Garner’s story.
2) 14:58
The man’s name is Stamp Paid. He actually develops a special bond with Denver because of this and began to refer to her as “his heart.”
3) 15:20
Insanity probably definitely played part of it. As I think anyone who would go to the extreme that she did must be suffering from something. However, I think when it comes to this there was just too much that aligned perfectly for Sethe to justify in her head as to why she needed to end those kids:
1. Sethe views her children as her “best thing”. They are the part of her that she feels most proud of. If schoolteacher were to have taken them back and forced them into slavery he would have ruined in her eyes the “best part of her” and in Sethe’s eyes that could not happen. Ending those kids allowed Sethe to keep some part of herself untainted by slavery.
2. It’s no secret that Sethe is quite furious about what was done to her during her time as Sweet Home. As stated in the other video. Sethe told Beloved that she was just trying to “out hurt the hurter.” So when it comes to her ending her children I also feel that it was also some sort of revenge against her enslavers. If you recall Schoolteacher regarded the slaves as animals. Sethe ending her kids could have been her saying “I can show you an animal”. It’s almost like it was a f*ck you to schoolteacher.
3. As Cheri and Toni Morrison pointed out it was a claiming of ownership. As you both pointed out in the system that Sethe was born into she legally was not a parent. It was often insisted that female slaves have children but they had no say so in what happened in that child’s life. Sethe ending those kids would make her the final determinant of their lives. In Toni Morrison’s words, “Those children are mine, I shall do with them as I please”
4. Then there is the trauma that she endured with watching her mother be h*nged for trying to escape slavery, schoolteacher and his boys violently assaulting her, her being brutally whipped while pregnant, and her having to abandon her husband.
So when it comes to Sethe I believe she felt that she couldn’t let schoolteacher destroy the part of herself that she was proud of, she wanted to enact some sort of revenge against him and her enslavers for brutalizing her, she experienced a high degree of trauma that damaged her mental psyche, and finally she wanted to have some sort of say in what became of her kids and so sending them to the afterlife just seemed like the most logical option.
4) 18:35
From my understanding the town’s people are former enslaved as well. I know Ella (played by Irma P. Hall who was the grandmother in Soul Food) was a former slave who was held captive by a white man and his son who took turns r-wording her.
There is also Stamp Paid who is a former slave as well. He is the one that saves Denver from being killed. He calls himself Stamp Paid because while enslaved his wife was r-worded by their enslavers and he could do nothing about it. For this reason, he sees this as a sacrifice clearing him of all future debts.
But when it comes to why the community feels so disgusted with Sethe’s actions it’s a few things. In the novel it is explained that when Sethe arrived at 124 Baby Suggs was so happy that she threw a celebration with all sorts of food. This extravaganza offended the community and they began to hold a grudge against her. So out of anger they stopped keeping a look out for white people coming into the community and that is why schoolteacher was able to get to Sethe without her being alerted.
The community knows deep down inside that had they not allowed their petty grudge against Baby Suggs stop them from keeping a look out. They would have more than likely saw schoolteacher coming and they would have been able to warn Sethe he was coming after them. Beloved death is somewhat their fault as well. That’s why in the novel they felt it was necessary to exorcise and why they are successful at it. As the trauma has been healed. They made up for not sticking by Sethe and her family and Sethe went after (what she thought) was her captors and not her children this time. But I say all this to say that I feel them viewing Sethe with such disgust allows them to ignore the part they played in Beloved’s death.
Another part is the whole love thing. I don’t think the townspeople understand the love that Sethe has for her children. I remember when she first made it to town when Ella saw her caring her child the first thing that said to her was “it’s dangerous to love something that much”. Even when it comes to Paul D it is said, “He would keep the rest where it belonged: in that tobacco tin buried in his chest where a red heart used to be. Its lid rusted shut”. So I also think there disdain comes from a confusion as well. How could they ever understand a mother’s love for her children when they decided a long time ago that price of love was too much to bear and so it was better to do without it. When you think about it Sethe is really only person in the town that still chooses to love. And when have seen when you’re the only person who is different in a community of like-minded individuals people tend to view you with disdain.
5) 24:59
I can see that point because in the movie. When the town women are discussing Beloved at the church meeting. One of the women states something along the lines of “I don’t mind a little communicating between worlds, but this is a violation”. Which makes sense as all of them were former slaves. If they allow Sethe to be continuously punished for a choice she made as a result of slavery than what is to stop them from being punished for choices they made as a result of slavery.
6) 34:50
I think this is what makes the novel so brilliant. As it forces Black Americans to evaluate our status in American society. It makes you ask yourself am I really as revolutionary as I think I am? If push comes to shove would I stand for up for my liberation? And if the answer is no, than for people who hold the “I am not my ancestors” mentality you will realize not you’re weaker than your ancestors. This is why I would say Heit is right. I have come across plenty of Black folks that will completely let white folks play all in their face but have the audacity to fix their mouths and say “we’re not our ancestors”. It reminds me of how I saw someone on Twitter with a shirt that read “Stop saying we’re not our ancestors, THEY revolted, YOU complain”.
I think what we can learn from this is how disrespectful a saying such as “we are not our ancestors” is to those who actually had to endure and slavery. Although Beloved does show a lot of the pain and torture they had to endure it also exemplifies their resilience.
7) 40:05
It was Sula.
8) 41:25
I would love to hear commentary’s on Do The Right Thing, Crooklyn, and He’s Got Game. Spike Lee’s relationship to religion in his films would be an interesting topic as well.
9) 44:30
Great connection! This makes sense because in his manifesto “Call it Afro-Surreal” D. Scott Miller in bullet five states, “Afro-Surrealists strive for rococo: the beautiful, the sensuous, and the whimsical. We turn to Sun Ra, Toni Morrison, and Ghostface Killa. We look to Kehinde Wiley, whose observation about the black male body applies to all art and culture: "There is no objective image. And there is no way to objectively view the image itself." So you’re right Beloved is one of the forbearers for the Afro-Surreal movement.
10) 44:51
D Scott Miller published his manifesto “Call it Afro-Surreal” on May 19, 2009 so Toni Morrison’s novel Beloved was not called a Afro-Surrealist work when it came out but it is widely considered a parent to the movement. Much like how Gospel is a parent of R&B.
11) 46:09
Yeah Toni Morrison was the queen of getting straight to the point.
Reminds me of how in her novel Jazz, it starts out, “Sth, I know that woman. She used to live with a flock of birds on Lenox Avenue. Know her husband, too. He fell for an eighteen-year-old girl with one of those deepdown, spooky loves that made him so sad and happy he shot her just to keep the feeling going When the wornan, her name is Violet, went to the funeral to see the girl and to cut her dead face they threw her to the floor and out of the church. She ran, then, through all that snow, and when she got back to her apartment she took the birds from their cages and set them out the windows to freeze or fly, including the parrot that said, "I love you."
This one paragraph you had at least five movie scenes in it. This is why I’m still mad that they chose to make adapt Beloved into a movie instead of a miniseries. There’s just so much they had to leave out. This is why I say that if Hollywood were to do a remake of Beloved ever I really wouldn’t be angry. As long as they got a Black film director and writer who is familiar with her works (like Julie Dash or Kasi Lemmons) to adapt it as a miniseries I would watch it.
Since Cheri had said it requires further discussion I think the Paul D and Beloved in the shed scene deserves a breakdown.
12) Final Thoughts
I had once saw an interview with Toni Morrison where she had said that writers are influenced by contemporary events and that many of the themes of Beloved are quite contemporary. This made me think about when the novel was made. Beloved was published in 1987 and was written during the 80’s. She also noted that she wrote about things that she saw going on in the community. And what was going on in the community, when she wrote Beloved? The War on Drugs. When many Black families were being ripped apart by the government and placed into the private prison system (which many of us see as a new form of slavery). I bring this up because I noticed in the novel that Beloved pushes all the males out of the house. The ghost is what causes Sethe’s two songs Howard and Bugler to run away and it is Beloved who causes Paul D to leave. I don’t think this was intentional. It’s no secret that the prison industrial complex took many Black fathers out of the home. And helped further the Black people don’t know their dad’s stereotype (even though most people I know all had a dad in their life, myself included). So I think that is kind of how the story’s themes relate to real life. In addition to this, in this specific novel there seems to be a difference in the way men and women (or at least Sethe and Paul D) process trauma. Paul D has chosen to completely forsake love while Sethe chooses to bathe in it. Some might say that Paul D has chosen not to love at all and Sethe loves too much. I think this can serve as a commentary on how some Black Men and Women process trauma and I say some not just to avoid pathologizing Black people but also because in the novel she wrote after this Jazz (1992) it’s actually the exact opposite it’s about a man who loves to hard and a women who chooses not to love at all. With all this being said, I think you may want to consider making a video about how the themes of Beloved correlate with The War on Drugs.
Great video and I enjoyed the discussion. If you haven’t read it. I would recommend reading Jazz by Toni Morrison. As Toni Morrison has stated that she feels it’s her best novel.
Oh and thank you once again Cheri I truly appreciated the link🙏🏽.
The post was caught in the filter, but it should be showing now. That was the issue. I'll respond to comments like I did the other one... 🙂
You are so welcome and I was excited to see your thoughts early after reading your comments on the first video. You said so much! I need to unpack some of it. I haven't read Jazz, and you have convinced me that I should! There is so much to say on Beloved and I plan on having us discuss some of your comments in a future video! I hope this is okay with you. We'll use your screen name here on youtube or we can make it anonymous. Which ever you prefer...
@@HeitCheri Oh that’s great! I’m glad I was able to sell you on Jazz I hope you enjoy it. Unfortunately, Jazz is the one book you cannot find an unabridged audiobook narrated by Toni Morrison. The one they do have is abridged. Just thought I’d warn you. Also, you can use my screen name. I am completely fine with that. I’m very thankful that you see my comments as deserving of further discussion.
I’m a white girl & not a mother myself yet so no one has to listen to me, but I’m still gonna try to emphasize.
Ideally I’d like to think I’d try escaping with my children again, but I also know so much will be out of my control by being stolen back. I assume a runaway enslaved woman would likely be immediately punished upon return & that would extend to her children just for cruelties sake. They may be immediately sold off to another plantation(s) to never see them again or know what horrors they faced. Possibly states away even deeper in the south.
I like to believe that life no matter how terrible is always worth holding on to. But I know my own traumas are minuscule compared to Sethe & the very real women of history she was inspired by.
A parent is not meant to only nurture their babies, but protect them. I can see why Sethe would believe her actions were in attempt to protect her babies. Especially during a whole PTSD episode triggered by the sight of that school teacher bastard.
I know there were cases of parents that were Jewish & Romani in the holocaust that poisoned their own children & themselves knowing they were about to all be sent to the camps.
I will say also though putting some empathy aside for the children that survived the attempted murders. I think they also have a right to be mad & conflicted by what she did, that shit takes years of therapy to come to terms with & was nonexistent for the time period obviously. Ideally I’d hope her boys would come back & forgive her, but I can’t blame them that they never do (assuming they’re still alive in the book/film’s world).
Thank you so much for your comment! Have you read Ta-Nehisi Coates' book that just came out? It's called "The Message". He discusses, among other things, the parallels that exist between the Holocaust and the treatment of enslaved African here in America.
The part where you mentioned the idea of life being worth preserving really struck a chord with me because I generally agree. Nevertheless, I think this underscores the desperation someone who might do as Sethe did must have felt.
Yes, the woman in town was the actress who played Big Mama in Soul Food.
Sethe was also so _young!_ She likely chose one of them boys within a year of being there and started having those babies immediately. She also didn't have time to grow and mature living and born into hell. I feel for her through abd through... most of all the woman that inspired this story and her babies. I'd like to think I'd have done what she did but I likely would've not been strong and brave at all.
Sethe was only 13 when she got to Sweet Home. She was brave for sure...
Honestly the killing of her child is not far fetched. There were slaves that would have rather drowned than become slaves. As a mother myself if I knew the sufferings of being a slave survival instinct would make you do that before someone else does. Is it right no but it’s the desperate approach is what the story is about. Also the fact the ghost is haunting the family is because the baby died alone and the mother’s will was never completed therefore she regretted it. It’s spiritual, it’s historical and it’s also human because our ancestors were stronger than we are and more desperate for freedom.
The question I kept asking myself was even if I determined that was the best course of action would I have the guts to do it? To me, that's a different question than whether it's a realistic action. -Cheri
Top Tier Conversations For Us By Us...I'm Loving This!
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In The Green Mile movie, when John Coffey dies, he tells the executioner, "Tell God, its a kindness you did"
When I think about the insanity of slavery...smh It makes me chill to the bone.
I remember reading this book and watching this movie so long ago, but something about it just stays with you. I think if I was a mother....if I couldn't find a place to hide them (in time, I mean), I would contemplate doing the unthinkable, and that would be something I would have to live with for the rest of my life. A person's mind, their psyche, their soul, is their palace, their safe space, and their prison. Beloved never really left Sethe as we've seen in books and the movie, and I was just remembering how Beloved talked about the "place" she was in before she gained a physical form, and the "haunting", was just as bad according to her. But Sethe didn't think so, she thought it would be better than what she escaped from. All Sethe believed was that it would be a place free of suffering. I cannot say if as a mother this was the right thing or wrong thing to do, and I hope no one ever has to find themself in that position. It was a hard question to answer that was the truth.
Yes! Something about this story just stays with you. It really haunts me in a way that other stories from this time do not.
This conversations remind me of the most frustrating day I had in college. We were talking about the Nat Turner rebellion and the white kids argued that he was mentally ill and evil because they hurt babies and that he thought God was speaking to him. I was just like how can you say that considering what they went through! You would do anything.
Yes I would have. 😢 Some Women do it everyday in present day society. Making the hard decision of terminating pregnancy because life wouldn’t be suitable for whatever they know their reasons are. Setha went through atrocities & circumstances we couldn’t even imagine! No matter how hard it is to be a woman / mother nowadays it Isn’t as hard as life was for her. 😢 🙏🏿
7:04 She had no rights for anything....Powerful💪🏽
You ought to cover Bamboozled. Spike Lee's commentary on Black representation in media.
Chile i dont know. As a mom i couldn't imagine having to make that decision and its really unfortunate that it was a lose lose situation. I understand why she did it though and its heartbreaking.
This part!
I'm pretty sure that was bug mama (Irma p hall) in beloved and in soul food
7:43 Heit is preaching! Cheri with the co-sign… “whall” 😅
Listen!!! He was preaching!!! 😊
@@HeitCheri 🤣🤣 and was!
What's right
These breakdowns are so interesting! It would be great to see more about beloved.
I would have either went back willingly, or tried to hide the children as best as I could while giving myself away. Just thinking of the scenario has me frantic so I can only imagine how Sethe felt after killing one child; and she still had 4 more to take (including her own) 😓
As someone who does stand up to my boss I fully admit that I would have been on the back of that wagon with my kids lbvs I know I'm weak as hell a running joke I have with my friends is that if there ever was a zombie apocalypse I'm not a survivalist I'm going to die immediately lol
It is good that you know yourself 😆. So many people are delusional about what they'd do in a bind...
@@HeitCheri look I’m soft as molasses I’ve grown too accustomed to the advantages we’ve made in technology ect lol
Whats right....i gree with Heit we can say anything, but we were not raised in that time we were not being treated the same. Thank goodness my ancestors paid the price so i wouldn't have to even think about doing anything like that. Child birth then is far different today than back then. I would die without ac today so i can't measure up to my ancestors in no way.
I can't say what's right and i don't know if i would have the strength to do it
Yes, this was such a good point that he made.
Thank you!!! What's Right!!!
You're welcome!❤️
It was Sula where the mother took her son's life.
Thanks for reminding me of this! 😊
When yall review a Spike Lee joint, it’dbe cool to hear your thoughts on Mo Better Blues or School Daze
WHAT’S RIGHT!! I would love to see you guys cover the following Spike Lee movies:
She’s Gotta Have It
School Daze
Do The Right Thing
Mo Better Blues
Jungle Fever
Crooklyn
Get On The Bus
Clockers
Girl 6
He Got Game
Bamboozled
Great show you two! I don't know how the algorithm brought you to me, but I am glad it did. I think you both have some really interesting ideas and questions about this book. Regarding why Beloved is haunting Sethe, I wonder if it is a kind personification of subconscious doubt. Not because she did the wrong thing, but because it would be traumatizing to kill one of the kids, have the others survive and then live their lives. The demon is not necessarily Beloved but something that took advantage of the opening, shaping itself into the build of what Sethe could have subconsciously imagined Beloved to be like had she not succeeded.
That said, I am likely just building my own fancies into the text. Regardless, you two are great hosts, and I would love to hear your thoughts on any Spike Lee movie.
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What’s right.
Would love to see breakdowns on Baby Sugs scenes. My favorite character and moments in the movies.
I don't think i could of done what she did. I would have been on the back of the wagon with my 4 kids praying that Master keeps us together and doesn't sell me further south as punishment.
I didn’t understand until reading the book again as an adult. I definitely would have done what seethe did. I’m a deeply sensitive person so I know if I could spare my children from the type of trauma they went through I would have. She felt she had to in order to protect them. Her love was too thick because she’d would rather her child see the other side than be in harms way. If the other side would be freedom agency over her children and self I understand why she’d take it. I am saddened my ancestors had to endure such brutality, and I am thankful they were able to make it for me to be where I am today.
I would love for y'all to cover Do the Right Thing! I'd love to get your perspective on this film.
Great suggestion!
I would be interested in as many Beloved analyses as you’re inclined to make; there’s no such thing as too much discussion of this book or film, but especially I refer to the book, IMO :)
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Crooklyn ❤
Do crooklyn but leave the biopics alone
Yeah we stay away from the biopics for the most part.
Review "Summer of Sam"
What's right 👍
Do Clockers by Spike Lee
Please do jungle fever or do the right thing pleaseeeeee!!!!!
What’s Right❤
What's right
she didn’t do anything wrong tbh.
What’s right 😅
IAll I can say is I'm so thankful to God that I do not have to make this type of choice. Jesus Christ 🙏🏾 I am sure that the woman in real life had to grapple with that ! My God
I didn’t like the Toni Morrison quote at all. Although, I can understand why she would say it. She used current laws to word play against a character with no rights. Enslaved people “rights” were dictated by those that own them not on their personhood because they were not seen as people but property. I agree with Heit. The act of killing her daughter had nothing to do with right or wrong. It was more a judgment of instinct - motherly instinct. A mother’s instinct to have her child live regardless of the circumstances is supposed to supersede all- even logic. She wasn’t supposed to have the will power to do such a thing but she did. To them she did the most illogical thing that made the most sense. Because of this, they were afraid of her and left her alone…. what else could she do?
Loved the breakdown hiet and cheri you guys did that 👏! Lol i here the video but especially this comment you guys got it lit up in here lol i am so here for it this good everyone here bringing thier own interpretations miniatures breakdowns my thought on the breakdown of beloved there really is wrong or right interpretation you read the book watch the multiple times re watch it again and still miss something ! I myself ive seen the movie multiple times i remember when it first came out lol traumazine me as kid it was scary as hell! especially when the beloved character thandie newton who played her by the way wonderful did a wonderful job playing that character came on the scene, everything about her just scream demon demonic some type of monster ghost shapshiter thing that towards the end had to get exorcised out the house standing on the porch nude and all lol. There were alot of terrifying scenes in the movie everybody bought there a game
WHAT'S RIGHT
Its probably like a urbanized bootleg exorcist with slavery rascism sprinkle in my first thought back in the day when beloved first came out quite as its kept alot blk folk was saying how oprah did the beloved to spite or make her own version the color purple and it fail lol people still went out paid watch the color purple and liked it more til this day i think the main reason oprah still shame of doing the movie beloved is because of that expect alone another thing i wasnt surprised about the failure of the color purple the remake why not no remake of beloved the color purple is what elevated popularized whoopie acting career the movie was about whoopie who played celie
I definitely understand why she did it. But NOBODY knows the plans God has for peoples lives. She could have killed a great leader. So yes it was the right thing to do but she had no right to take another persons life. She doesn’t know what greatness she could have killed.
Please tell me yal know the movie review channel spooky rice 😭😭 I think yal use similar intro music and I always get so creeped out thinking about his content.
Never heard of them.
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No i believe she was selfish because the kids didn’t ask to be hear… she decided to have all them damn kids knowing what the outcome might be..
What’s right
What's Right 🔴⚪️
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