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Hey guys! One of the writers here! What an amazing and thoughtful review, thank you :) A thing to note: all these classes were made for use with Heliana's Hunts, which are 2-shots in which you (i) Research your foe then (ii) Fight your foe. So the features which allow you to prepare for specific types of fights are designed with that preparation phase in mind.
Also, to respond to the Cleric's Hunter's Instinct CD. It's 'no action required' because it's an 'instinct', its a divine infusion that enhances your instincts and lets you know, at a glance, details about a creature, including where it is weakest. By instinct, I mean just like you know a cheetah is fast or a turtle's shell is hard by looking at it. I can see a strong argument for making it a bonus action but that would de-synergise with the Mark Prey feature (which is deffo Hunter's Mark, you nailed it). Regarding timing, it is most certainly, 100%, the next attack. You can't declare it 'during' a crit (the wording for that would be like a paladin's smite: "when you hit... you can..."). The verbiage 'no action required' does not mean it bucks the chronology of events; it must still take place after one thing and before another.
I realized after I said it that “your next attack” immediately crushes my “I want to use it on this crit” idea. We love all the subclasses and the work that’s been done on these books, we try to be critical in our analysis, but at the end of the day, these are all really flavourful and fun subclasses that feel at worst, super thematic, and at best, incredible additions to the game. Really amazing work.
Woah, this is awesome! A few members of the team have been watching you guys for a while, so it's an honour to get Heliana's on your subclass ranking! It's always great to have some outside view on our content, and you laid out some great points, especially on the Hive Druid! We might release an errata at some point with some improvements to Symbiotic Biosphere and hopefully make it more viable, as well as the Hunt Domain's Channel Divinity to avoid any unintentional exploits! Fantastic video, I'd put it in the S tier :)
That swarm druid has me imagining a rusted out and decayed junkyard warforged or autognome that walks with a limp, talks with a glitchy hillbilly accent, has a GIANT beehive in its chest cavity, and is proficient with brewer's tools and is basically a walking meadery. When it "wildshapes" into a swarm, it literally just comes apart at all its joints and its pieces are carried around by bees.
@@samihietanen2605 The first character I made for a swarm ranger was an auto gnome. It was for a Ravenloft campaign, so I made her a haunted porcelain wind up doll with a big key sticking out of her back and her swarm is rats. She's Annie the Rat Queen, and damn terrifying.
I don't remember hearing you guys mention it (you might have considered it outside the scope of this video), but when you were talking about the Flesh Weaver and saying "I'd only pick this option if I knew exactly what enemy I'd be facing" That's basically the entire adventuring premise of the book. The "Hunts" involve a fair amount of getting clues about the monster you'll be hunting, preparing for the actual fight, and then fighting it. So it's definitely made to have the greatest impact within its own style.
That channel divinity says... "the NEXT time you hit the target with a weapon attack in the next minute". Not "the crit that you just got one second ago". So I'd rule it has to be used before the attack roll.
I might be wrong, but since the CD doesn't require any action, you could say that both effects (the CD and the hit) are simultaneous. As per Xanathar's, you could then choose which of the effects happens first, so that the hit comes after the CD. I feel like that's too much of a stretch tho
My thoughts exactly, the word "next" seems to leave no doubts on the table. If you could use it during your attack action to amplify it, it should be worded like the paladin's divine smite: "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack".
@@1rotzy its called the Tamer! It uses familiars for combat much like a Pokémon trainer, with some unique familiar rules as well as skill trees for those familiars
A "Mark of Hospitality" Halfling with the Feat "Chef", adding the Spell "Goodberry" to the (something I'd allow at my table) Chef's "Special Food" and "College of Cuisine" Bard's "Petit Fours" just sounds like an absolute delight of a character concept to play as and with! 😊 Samwise anyone? Second Breakfasts all-around. 😂
The wording of the Channel Divinity as “the next time you hit” would suggest that this means it applies to the first hit you make AFTER using the ability. It may be no action required, but it still needs to be activated.
It’s like Tempest Domain’s CD: Destructive Wrath except it specifies that it must be used before the attack is thrown and gives a duration. It’s basically that for Martial character so they can line up a max damage attack.
Yeah except you can use it AFTER you make the d20 roll to hit, but before the attack is declared as a hit. For example you roll a nat20 and say “I’m going to activate my max damage, NOW, does a natural 20 hit?” And unless the enemy has portent silvery barbs, it’s totally guaranteed and fair
@@bobswag710 A primary design goal of 5e was to word it in a way that is understood with natural language instead of a stringent rules forward language. There is already templating for abilities that are triggered on hit, and this one chooses not to use them. Instead the words on this ability describe it as on the next hit, following the language of the Smite spells, which preempt making an attack, the intent here is clear. The examples you pull in another thread aren't even correct. Portent has to be used before you roll. Bardic Inspiration explicitly states the timing as a feature of the ability and affirms that you can do this, meaning you normally could not. Silvery Barbs is a reaction spell which occurs after the roll is succeeded and changes the result. Chapter 9 of the PHB describes how attacks happen and there are Three Distinct Steps Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage. Normally nothing occurs between rolling dice and hitting unless something explicitly says it does because specific beats general Per the Introduction chapter of the PHB. Though, if you could provide a line where it defines attacks, ability checks, or saving throws differently, I would be thrilled to take a look at where you are getting your notions of timing from.
36:00 - Use the Channel Divinity. Learn its vulnerable to Psychic. Cast Shadowblade while in dim light. Crit. Sneak Attack for 80+ damage. It only works for one attack that hits, so it isn’t as abusable as one might think
No, the executive chef feature isn't barking commands at them. You remember when Gordon would say encouraging things? Like "Hey, you! You know that filet you just sent up here? It's beautiful, keep going." And then the sous chef would get in the zone with renewed confidence and just deliver plate after plate of beauty? This is that.
“Surprisingly combative for a subclass based on cooking.” Monty, didn’t you say your dad was a chef? You should know combativeness comes with the territory! 😂
8:16 y'all ask "what is a bitter treat?". Dark chocolate. Fancy "treats" tend to be more bitter than most. I say this as someone who is very sensitive to bitter flavors. Alcohol can also be fairly bitter, especially with bitters added, and many would consider that a treat. There are options
Super glad you guys did a tier list on the subclasses in this book. I got it on kickstarter and havent had a chance to really absorb it. Would love to see some videos on the crafting system and other stuff in the book
That paralyzing needle with silvery barbs makes that bard subclass the very best (and it’s not close) at burning through legendary resistances, and you still have spells like hold person in your back pocket for when you do burn through them.
I think that the helianas subclasses have to be graded a little differently. Those subclasses are intended for use in campaigns based on players, learning about what they're fighting and preparing to fight those specific things. So some of the more niche abilities are way more effective than they normally would be.
To be fair, that druid is gonna be pretty tanky and able to resist a lot of things. The subclass feature allows you to become a swarm, which usually have resistences to bludgeoning slashing and piercing damage, as well as bunch of condition immunties, including Grappled, frightend, restrained and prone. Combine this with the sixth level feature to regain temp hp, and you have pretty tanky druid which is immune to a lot of effects, since for the example in your video if you take 20 damage from a club, that damage is halved, combined the temp hp and you only took 4 damage. the 10th level feature also allows you to heal while the swarm shape which is alright for not losing that durability without and still able to heal a little. combine this with something like a good concentration spell and you are pretty difficult to take down or effect the poison feature is not that strong, but you can use it in your swarm shape, and swarms do need to be in a enemies space to do oppertunity attacks, so enemies can walk up to the swarm smack it and walk away without oppertunity attacks, so doing it like this is gives you more of a use for your reaction in the form of the sixth level feature in the swarm shape and keeps enemies on their toes, and doesn't allow them to walk up for free Is it the most powerful? no but i feel it is decent at what it's supposed to do. The main focus is on the wildshape, not nessesary the spellcasting, and each of the features allows you to augment that core of the swarm.
Swarms are beefy, so this is a tank subclass. But most, if not all spells for the subclass are concentration, so getting hit is risky which is not a good tactic for a tank.
@@RevanSkywalker-op4yw that's fair, but that the second advantage of swarms, they can easily get to positions that you normally can't. you go trough small openings and a lot of smarms can either fly or climb to safer spots that normal enemies can't hit. the purpose of most of these isn't really to get hit, but to deter from getting hit, and giving you enough tools to discourage that. i do suggest picking up something like warcaster to keep concentration. look at most the spells this subclass give. most of them are good for getting out of situations or restraining enemies. essentialy hammering the enemies ability to attack you. blur gives enemies disadvantage, web can restrain enemies and slow enemies, hypnotic patern can disable enemies and hold them in place, giant insect gives summons to hold them off you, insect plague makes an area hostile to enemies (and can be useful if you are also insects swarm to make it more difficult to track you) and mislead makes you invisible and and illusion to throw attackers off. Is it the best tank? No, but the amount of tools at your disposal makes you not a very appealing target for most melee attackers.
If the ability teleporting of the fleshweaver bard was given earlier, something thay could replace it with is giving it polymorph, plus the adition that you can now turn into monstrosities and plants. Really brings me the vibe of being the master of the flesh of this plane and messing with the body
My suggestion to tune the Hunter domain's channel divinity. Channel Divinity: Honed Instincts. Passive: As long as you still have uses of channel divinity available, at the start of your turn, choose one from saving throws, skill proficencies, resistances. You learn those trait for your currently marked prey. If you already know at least two of these, choose from immunity, vulnerability, and condition immunities as well. Active: Once you know at least four, one per short rest per creature, you may channel divinity after declaring an attack against your marked prey but before rolling. If you attack can succeed, it automatically does (still roll to see if you crit) and is more likely to critically hit. Regardless, it deals maximum damage. If the target dies or becomes incapacitated, choose you may choose a new mark as a free action. It's better defined in terms of when you can use it. it's probably a bit more powerful over-all; but that increase in power is offset by a thematically tethered four-turn buildup/cooldown. You get the power by studying the creature and finding its weaknesses. Then you've taken your prey down, you get to immediately move on to the next preyling. Idk if it's a good change, but it addresses the design issues, I think.
The Swarm’s retributive damage does scale, seems they overlooked it. Another oversight is the host of Heliana spells the Swarm Druid has access to offer some interesting options to complement it. But it is niche. The real combo is Mobility feat, Fly spell, swarm of rot grubs form. Now I want to see a deep dive into the Tamer class.
I want to play that culinary bard so badly now. Imagining a middle-aged "mum of the group" character handing out treats and giving inspiration by telling people she's proud of them.
College of Fleshweaving gives me Franken Fran or Bonesaw (from the Worm webnovel) vibes. You're casting spells through the art you craft from the flesh of your allies and enemies. Unique idea for a bard, but i love it.
I think the Swarm Druid synergy is supposed to be when you are in a swarm form and you're returning damage and reducing damage while you have resistance to that damage from the swarm feature. But yeah... not great.
33:48 the wording Is "the next time you hit", not After you hit, you have to have to hit, because you roll a 20, you call Channel, i say ok next Attack you auto max damage
I feel like players will argue they are channeling “as they hit” because of the lack of action requirement if they aren’t using it for the information aspect. The wording will just cause an argument if the player is trying to make a crit fisher build. They could have defined it better because players will try to use it like divine smite, not saying they’d be right but it’s going to be an issue if they don’t have the discussion with the DM prior. It feels very similar to the Channel Divinities like Path to the Grave feature and Wrath of the Storm but less clear with when you can use it if you’re just going for damage and don’t care about the first part.
9 mentioned! I actually have an upcoming arc set in a ruined city based on 9, with the Fabrication Machine smashed together with AM from I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and the Clockwork Sun from Sunless Skies
42:20 since mark prey is non concentration, and not a spell you could also go barbarian for an up close melee fighter rage to resist damage and you got a damage dealer with good survivability
The way to get pseudo-Extra Attack on Cleric is Potion of Speed or a background or player race with Haste. Then use a loaded Ring of Spell Storing and a Familiar.
Would love to see you guys tackle the subclasses, or maybe even the full classes presented in Valda's Spire of Secrets. It's my favorite homebrew supplement.
For the bard subclass, I was picturing it more as a tattoo artist which I think is some good flavor to throw in there. For the Druids subclass why not if you lose concentration on a spell as a reaction you could send your swarm or hive to deal xd6 damage equal to the level of the spell that you were concentrating on. Then it would feel more as if your hive is reacting toward you and actively helping you concentrate on the spell lastly for the Cleric for my reading of the channel to vanity it is the next attack so it wouldn’t be when you land in attack, then it wouldn’t apply until you land seems to be something you want to do ahead of time but that’s just my interpretation. If they wanted to, they could change the wording to say at the start of your turn no action required and less for an entire minute, which is plenty of rounds of combat.
The cleric ability says the ‘next attack that hits within the next minute’ though? So if you’ve already rolled to hit, that’s the previous attack not the next one
With the honed instinct that is a good question, but it does say next attack, and I usually call that when you see an attack roll, the attack has been made and so that would mean this feature would take the attack right after.
So depending on how the D&D 5.2e Monk shakes out, you could do a 2 level Monk dip just for Martial Arts and Weapon Mastery. You take a weapon with Nick, get the free unarmed Bonus attack. You’re now getting 3 attacks per turn and only 2 levels behind in cleric. Sure, you don’t get Extra attack or a ton of Flurry of Blows, but if you want to be more caster focused it’s definitely an option. All hypothetical based on playtest material, but we can dream lol.
Hunt Domain CD had some precedent from the Tempest Domain CD. That one doesn't require an action, but it triggered when you roll thunder or lightning damage, which then is maximized.
not sure if any one pointed out that the bard's Ritual reskin states "you can perform a surgical ritual on creatures that you can see within 60 feet of you (including yourself), up to a number equal to your Charisma modifier" meaning that one ritual effects multiple people at once for a ten minute sit down. also when they cover the ranger i hope that they cover the traps in the book that they get
I want to build Guy Fieri so bad now! "Hey! Today, we're going to check out The Crumbling Necropolis! Come along on this edition of Dungeons, Dragons, and Dives!
I think a really coolish buff for the swarm druid "thorns" ability is if it was a number of dice equal to your wis mod and maybe save for half if you really wanna not break it, maybe adding dice as you level in druid to prevent other classes from abusing it but also I can't see why it would be more busted on like a fighter than the druid who now basically has to be out of position to use it
I would like to point out, swarms typically take HALF damage from bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage. I think that is a good note for the subclass defensively. However the con save for the poison damage does hurt quite a bit.
The channel divinity on the Hunt Domain is very touchy. Since there’s no action requirement, I feel like there will be arguments at the table that you can use this ability AS you crit the enemy rather than trying to use it like a reaction since it has the wording “the next time you hit the target”. Grave domain has the same thing but the wording is a lot more clear so it works better. This ability just sounds like it will cause an argument at the table about how it applies if you don’t use it early in the fight for the information and just save it for the crit. I know they’re more common in BG3, but this ability on a ranger-rogue like Veo with different elemental arrows to target those vulnerabilities even more would be amazing.
Mine just came in the mail from the kickstarter. I'm so happy to finally have the familiar pins (what I actually backed the project to get) but the book is nice too.
@@LootTavern Back when the kickstarter was happening, I'd just played a sapient gelatinous cube of my own brew named Booze the Ooze, and I really wanted the oozeling. So now I have the oozeling and two (remaining) gifts for friends.
23:26 the point they made here is valid. However I'd like to say that any monster hunter worth their salt has studied the creature their about to fight extensively. They'll know if a creature uses grapples or lives underwater or some other thing. Just like the Hunt cleric, alot of these subclasses revolve around knowing what you're hunting
For the Cleric of the Hunt I would say it occurs when the player does damage is the trigger. So yes I think I would allow a rogue to know if it's a crit or not.
Another knock against the druid subclass is that swarms can't gain temp HP so those features can't be used together. I do think you get a lot of protection from the temp HP feature though. You have enough uses to use it on most hits you take as it is wisdom modifier per short rest. That could add up to a lot of hp saved in longer adventuring days.
"The *next* time you hit *the* target with a weapon attack in the next minute." That means your first attack after casting channel divinity. If your first attack was a 20, then yes you would get the crit. If your first attack after casting was an 18 and still hit, that *next attack* would have max damage, but it is not a crit. This is the general rule, and if there is no specific, general applies. Similar situations that might be different are things like Divine Smite, and Lucky, which state "you can make this choice after rolling but before the DM determines outcome" or in the case of smite, you can choose to activate the smite after landing the hit. But in the case of "Thunderous Smite" (or any of the smites that are not Divine Smite) you have to *cast the spell first* and then *the next attack* has that effect. If it says "next attack" it means "next attack" not "that attack I just made." which would be "previous" not "next" attack. The answer is a hard, firm, undeniable *no.* You can not choose to activate an effect AFTER the attack if it says you must activate BEFORE the attack (IE, the *NEXT* attack you make...) The spell is worded this way in case you *missed* your next attack. In which case, like the smite, the effect is still waiting for your *next* attack to land. This is in contrast to something like an enchanted arrow which losses it's magic even if you miss. This allows you not to waste a spell slot (or in this case, your daily CD) when you whiffed the attack, as it will wait around for when you do eventually hit, provided you don't miss for a full minute.
Hunt cleric works very well with barbarian because the hunters mark like feature is not a spell and isn’t concentration so you can rage while it’s active. It could also work awry well with beast barbarian both mechanically and thematically.
Easy homebrew fix for the druid subclass is to change it to every time that a creature hits you, it takes that dice of damage. So if they hit me three times at level 14, they take 3d10 damage. I think the subclass is over tuned in that regard, as poison is often resisted anyway. And the saving throw is yet another dice roll for your DM, all while reducing the effectiveness of your subclass to begin with. I think the saving throw could easily be waved with this new change, and that this subclass would be just fine. While remaining effective and worthwhile. I mean if you are going to have a crit heavy, no concentration hunters mark cleric, then I think this is the least of my worries as a DM.
Thing is that you really don't want to get hit as a druid (or in general tbh) and doing a little damage back doesn't change that. However the subclass is fine as long as you just play it like a regular caster druid and just pretend Symbiotic Biosphere doesn't exist.
I love the chef class 🥐 I like some of the ideas for crafting rules on Heliana's, but I'm not a fan of the rarity and price-based time constraints. I think it's fine to have time constraints but rarity unfortunately does not always relate to the usefulness of the item... And I don't love the recipes, will be making some of my own. That is, until we get the Dungeon Dudes crafting pack ;)
I love listening to them discussing early on about what kind of foods could fit the bill of each treat column, But *Literally* Fool's gold campaign allows a background, Called: *_OUTBACK COOK;_* That allows the user to tell whether or not a creature and plant is edible, And you can cook; Aberrations, Beast, Dragon, Monstrosity, Ooze or Plant, that hasn't been dead for more than a day, and when a creature takes up to an hour to eat it. They gain *_temporary hit points= Level._* That alone with the bards college and the Chef feat from Tasha's grants so many options..
Our book includes a full cooking system that allows to make magic meals with unique effects for the whole party for 8 hours depending on the monster parts you use to make it :)
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Why is my nose itching!? 😳
I can’t say no to you guys! Gonna have to put this at the top of my to do list ❤
Give us Gloom Hunt Bugbear
Assassin rogue + Hunt domain cleric?
Combine this with their Arcane hand monk Colby. We need to see this ultimate monk power
Hey guys! One of the writers here! What an amazing and thoughtful review, thank you :)
A thing to note: all these classes were made for use with Heliana's Hunts, which are 2-shots in which you (i) Research your foe then (ii) Fight your foe. So the features which allow you to prepare for specific types of fights are designed with that preparation phase in mind.
Also, to respond to the Cleric's Hunter's Instinct CD. It's 'no action required' because it's an 'instinct', its a divine infusion that enhances your instincts and lets you know, at a glance, details about a creature, including where it is weakest. By instinct, I mean just like you know a cheetah is fast or a turtle's shell is hard by looking at it. I can see a strong argument for making it a bonus action but that would de-synergise with the Mark Prey feature (which is deffo Hunter's Mark, you nailed it).
Regarding timing, it is most certainly, 100%, the next attack. You can't declare it 'during' a crit (the wording for that would be like a paladin's smite: "when you hit... you can..."). The verbiage 'no action required' does not mean it bucks the chronology of events; it must still take place after one thing and before another.
I realized after I said it that “your next attack” immediately crushes my “I want to use it on this crit” idea.
We love all the subclasses and the work that’s been done on these books, we try to be critical in our analysis, but at the end of the day, these are all really flavourful and fun subclasses that feel at worst, super thematic, and at best, incredible additions to the game. Really amazing work.
Woah, this is awesome!
A few members of the team have been watching you guys for a while, so it's an honour to get Heliana's on your subclass ranking!
It's always great to have some outside view on our content, and you laid out some great points, especially on the Hive Druid! We might release an errata at some point with some improvements to Symbiotic Biosphere and hopefully make it more viable, as well as the Hunt Domain's Channel Divinity to avoid any unintentional exploits!
Fantastic video, I'd put it in the S tier :)
I'll be waiting on that errata. Thanks for your work. Glad, i could help you while translating it. It's a big book.)
That swarm druid has me imagining a rusted out and decayed junkyard warforged or autognome that walks with a limp, talks with a glitchy hillbilly accent, has a GIANT beehive in its chest cavity, and is proficient with brewer's tools and is basically a walking meadery. When it "wildshapes" into a swarm, it literally just comes apart at all its joints and its pieces are carried around by bees.
That's awesome flavor.
I have a Swarm Ranger Autognome NPC in my current campaign that's almost exactly like that. 😁
@@samihietanen2605 The first character I made for a swarm ranger was an auto gnome. It was for a Ravenloft campaign, so I made her a haunted porcelain wind up doll with a big key sticking out of her back and her swarm is rats. She's Annie the Rat Queen, and damn terrifying.
These character concepts are amazing
I don't remember hearing you guys mention it (you might have considered it outside the scope of this video), but when you were talking about the Flesh Weaver and saying "I'd only pick this option if I knew exactly what enemy I'd be facing"
That's basically the entire adventuring premise of the book. The "Hunts" involve a fair amount of getting clues about the monster you'll be hunting, preparing for the actual fight, and then fighting it. So it's definitely made to have the greatest impact within its own style.
That channel divinity says... "the NEXT time you hit the target with a weapon attack in the next minute". Not "the crit that you just got one second ago". So I'd rule it has to be used before the attack roll.
I don't understand how they missed something so obvious.
I might be wrong, but since the CD doesn't require any action, you could say that both effects (the CD and the hit) are simultaneous. As per Xanathar's, you could then choose which of the effects happens first, so that the hit comes after the CD. I feel like that's too much of a stretch tho
My thoughts exactly, the word "next" seems to leave no doubts on the table. If you could use it during your attack action to amplify it, it should be worded like the paladin's divine smite: "when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack".
Yeah that wording is very important in not making the CD absolutely busted. It is still very strong, but nowhere near as overpowered.
@@joaod.carvalho182 If you see the crit rolled, it already happened. And if you made the attack roll already, it isn't the next attack you make.
Bitter treat = dark chocolate. Maybe a dark chocolate covered coffee bean to be fancy.
There is so much in this book beyond simply subclasses. An entire class and new set of rulesets too!
Really? What's the class called?
@@1rotzy its called the Tamer! It uses familiars for combat much like a Pokémon trainer, with some unique familiar rules as well as skill trees for those familiars
@@nebulousnoah3913ooooo! Neat!
@@1rotzy very! They even have a little module to get people introduced to the class and mechanics, a Tamer Tournament
There is. I am so happy I found it while the late pledges were still open. Great community on their discord, too!
A "Mark of Hospitality" Halfling with the Feat "Chef", adding the Spell "Goodberry" to the (something I'd allow at my table) Chef's "Special Food" and "College of Cuisine" Bard's "Petit Fours" just sounds like an absolute delight of a character concept to play as and with! 😊
Samwise anyone? Second Breakfasts all-around. 😂
There is a species in Ryoko's Guide that also has a similar power that would work well.
That would probably become Colby's favorite build "Meister Chef" 😁
The wording of the Channel Divinity as “the next time you hit” would suggest that this means it applies to the first hit you make AFTER using the ability. It may be no action required, but it still needs to be activated.
It’s like Tempest Domain’s CD: Destructive Wrath except it specifies that it must be used before the attack is thrown and gives a duration. It’s basically that for Martial character so they can line up a max damage attack.
Yeah except you can use it AFTER you make the d20 roll to hit, but before the attack is declared as a hit.
For example you roll a nat20 and say “I’m going to activate my max damage, NOW, does a natural 20 hit?”
And unless the enemy has portent silvery barbs, it’s totally guaranteed and fair
@@bobswag710 And this is what happens when you try to apply MTG rules to a game that tries to base itself on natural language.
@@kamehapa ? DnD 5e is VERY much a rules based system lol
@@bobswag710 A primary design goal of 5e was to word it in a way that is understood with natural language instead of a stringent rules forward language. There is already templating for abilities that are triggered on hit, and this one chooses not to use them. Instead the words on this ability describe it as on the next hit, following the language of the Smite spells, which preempt making an attack, the intent here is clear.
The examples you pull in another thread aren't even correct.
Portent has to be used before you roll.
Bardic Inspiration explicitly states the timing as a feature of the ability and affirms that you can do this, meaning you normally could not.
Silvery Barbs is a reaction spell which occurs after the roll is succeeded and changes the result.
Chapter 9 of the PHB describes how attacks happen and there are Three Distinct Steps
Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
Normally nothing occurs between rolling dice and hitting unless something explicitly says it does because specific beats general Per the Introduction chapter of the PHB.
Though, if you could provide a line where it defines attacks, ability checks, or saving throws differently, I would be thrilled to take a look at where you are getting your notions of timing from.
You guys were thinking of Vegemite, which would definitely be a salty treat. A bitter treat could be like unsweetened chocolate.
I feel like all of us flavor nerds were immediately sitting here listing off bitter ingredients for desserts 😂
Or Dark chocolate, depending on percentage 😅
36:00 - Use the Channel Divinity. Learn its vulnerable to Psychic. Cast Shadowblade while in dim light. Crit. Sneak Attack for 80+ damage.
It only works for one attack that hits, so it isn’t as abusable as one might think
“if you’ve been sleeping on these third parties you may need a new mattress!” Wha- *Takes off glasses*
No, the executive chef feature isn't barking commands at them.
You remember when Gordon would say encouraging things? Like "Hey, you! You know that filet you just sent up here? It's beautiful, keep going."
And then the sous chef would get in the zone with renewed confidence and just deliver plate after plate of beauty?
This is that.
“Surprisingly combative for a subclass based on cooking.”
Monty, didn’t you say your dad was a chef? You should know combativeness comes with the territory! 😂
Love how Monte was the model for the Helix ad. Nice job guys!
I loved 9. I'm happy the trailer used coheed and Cambria's welcome home because that was the reason I decided to see it in theatres.
Honestly, same.
8:16 y'all ask "what is a bitter treat?". Dark chocolate. Fancy "treats" tend to be more bitter than most. I say this as someone who is very sensitive to bitter flavors. Alcohol can also be fairly bitter, especially with bitters added, and many would consider that a treat. There are options
FINALLY! My prayers have been answered! Oh my heliana loving heart. Currently playing a biomancy wizard and having an absolute blast with it.
LETSGO the tier rankings return!!!!!
As a DM who wants to run a Zuggtmoy campaign, I loved Heliana's!
Og campaign or are you doing Reign of Rot from DMs guild?
What is zuggtmoy?
@@CecilQuetzalcoatl demon queen of fungi
@@CecilQuetzalcoatl demon lord of fungus and rot
I love everytime I hear the "Colby, get on it"
I can absolutely see a Cuisine Bard teleporting a sweet treat in front of an ally and saying "Bon-Apple-Tart"!
If you added two levels of this hunt domain cleric to your ranger rogue commando, i feel like it would pop the hell off.
Super glad you guys did a tier list on the subclasses in this book. I got it on kickstarter and havent had a chance to really absorb it. Would love to see some videos on the crafting system and other stuff in the book
I'm not normally the kind of guy to shill for a RUclips sponsor, but my Helix Sunset is my favorite bed ever. It's become a refuge for me
Cool to see 9 brought up, one of my favorite movies as a kid. The flavor alone makes me want to play that subclass
Dude, 9 was amazing! Im so glad im not the only one who thought so lol
well done for getting a sponsor other than from the tabletop genre. You may have had others before but that's a big step for any channel
That paralyzing needle with silvery barbs makes that bard subclass the very best (and it’s not close) at burning through legendary resistances, and you still have spells like hold person in your back pocket for when you do burn through them.
I think that the helianas subclasses have to be graded a little differently. Those subclasses are intended for use in campaigns based on players, learning about what they're fighting and preparing to fight those specific things. So some of the more niche abilities are way more effective than they normally would be.
To be fair, that druid is gonna be pretty tanky and able to resist a lot of things.
The subclass feature allows you to become a swarm, which usually have resistences to bludgeoning slashing and piercing damage, as well as bunch of condition immunties, including Grappled, frightend, restrained and prone. Combine this with the sixth level feature to regain temp hp, and you have pretty tanky druid which is immune to a lot of effects, since for the example in your video if you take 20 damage from a club, that damage is halved, combined the temp hp and you only took 4 damage. the 10th level feature also allows you to heal while the swarm shape which is alright for not losing that durability without and still able to heal a little. combine this with something like a good concentration spell and you are pretty difficult to take down or effect
the poison feature is not that strong, but you can use it in your swarm shape, and swarms do need to be in a enemies space to do oppertunity attacks, so enemies can walk up to the swarm smack it and walk away without oppertunity attacks, so doing it like this is gives you more of a use for your reaction in the form of the sixth level feature in the swarm shape and keeps enemies on their toes, and doesn't allow them to walk up for free
Is it the most powerful? no but i feel it is decent at what it's supposed to do. The main focus is on the wildshape, not nessesary the spellcasting, and each of the features allows you to augment that core of the swarm.
Swarms are beefy, so this is a tank subclass. But most, if not all spells for the subclass are concentration, so getting hit is risky which is not a good tactic for a tank.
@@RevanSkywalker-op4yw that's fair, but that the second advantage of swarms, they can easily get to positions that you normally can't. you go trough small openings and a lot of smarms can either fly or climb to safer spots that normal enemies can't hit.
the purpose of most of these isn't really to get hit, but to deter from getting hit, and giving you enough tools to discourage that. i do suggest picking up something like warcaster to keep concentration.
look at most the spells this subclass give. most of them are good for getting out of situations or restraining enemies. essentialy hammering the enemies ability to attack you. blur gives enemies disadvantage, web can restrain enemies and slow enemies, hypnotic patern can disable enemies and hold them in place, giant insect gives summons to hold them off you, insect plague makes an area hostile to enemies (and can be useful if you are also insects swarm to make it more difficult to track you) and mislead makes you invisible and and illusion to throw attackers off.
Is it the best tank? No, but the amount of tools at your disposal makes you not a very appealing target for most melee attackers.
Swarms can’t regain HP or Temp HP, but otherwise I agree with everything else said here.
@@ryanholley406 Yeah, i think that might have been a oversight, at least from what i could find and asking around. I would personally allow it. XD
If the ability teleporting of the fleshweaver bard was given earlier, something thay could replace it with is giving it polymorph, plus the adition that you can now turn into monstrosities and plants. Really brings me the vibe of being the master of the flesh of this plane and messing with the body
My suggestion to tune the Hunter domain's channel divinity.
Channel Divinity: Honed Instincts.
Passive: As long as you still have uses of channel divinity available, at the start of your turn, choose one from saving throws, skill proficencies, resistances. You learn those trait for your currently marked prey. If you already know at least two of these, choose from immunity, vulnerability, and condition immunities as well.
Active: Once you know at least four, one per short rest per creature, you may channel divinity after declaring an attack against your marked prey but before rolling. If you attack can succeed, it automatically does (still roll to see if you crit) and is more likely to critically hit. Regardless, it deals maximum damage. If the target dies or becomes incapacitated, choose you may choose a new mark as a free action.
It's better defined in terms of when you can use it. it's probably a bit more powerful over-all; but that increase in power is offset by a thematically tethered four-turn buildup/cooldown. You get the power by studying the creature and finding its weaknesses. Then you've taken your prey down, you get to immediately move on to the next preyling.
Idk if it's a good change, but it addresses the design issues, I think.
My Wife: What kind of Umami treat would you leave, like fried Mushroom's or something?
Me:...
My Wife:...
Me: ...Do we have mushrooms?
I love ranking subclasses
The Swarm’s retributive damage does scale, seems they overlooked it. Another oversight is the host of Heliana spells the Swarm Druid has access to offer some interesting options to complement it. But it is niche.
The real combo is Mobility feat, Fly spell, swarm of rot grubs form.
Now I want to see a deep dive into the Tamer class.
I love cleric of the hunt, didn't know i needed that so much
Did Kelly just tell us he's cool with having crabs? = P
I want to play that culinary bard so badly now. Imagining a middle-aged "mum of the group" character handing out treats and giving inspiration by telling people she's proud of them.
This was one of the best in show ads I've seen in a long time 😂
This is my favorite series of books, larsenes and Ryokos!
I’m playing a the parasite warlock in a new campaign soon!
College of Fleshweaving gives me Franken Fran or Bonesaw (from the Worm webnovel) vibes. You're casting spells through the art you craft from the flesh of your allies and enemies. Unique idea for a bard, but i love it.
Got my Heliana's book and it immediately became a favorite.
You're also our favorite
I think the Swarm Druid synergy is supposed to be when you are in a swarm form and you're returning damage and reducing damage while you have resistance to that damage from the swarm feature.
But yeah... not great.
33:48 the wording Is "the next time you hit", not After you hit, you have to have to hit, because you roll a 20, you call Channel, i say ok next Attack you auto max damage
I feel like players will argue they are channeling “as they hit” because of the lack of action requirement if they aren’t using it for the information aspect. The wording will just cause an argument if the player is trying to make a crit fisher build. They could have defined it better because players will try to use it like divine smite, not saying they’d be right but it’s going to be an issue if they don’t have the discussion with the DM prior. It feels very similar to the Channel Divinities like Path to the Grave feature and Wrath of the Storm but less clear with when you can use it if you’re just going for damage and don’t care about the first part.
9 mentioned! I actually have an upcoming arc set in a ruined city based on 9, with the Fabrication Machine smashed together with AM from I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream and the Clockwork Sun from Sunless Skies
42:20 since mark prey is non concentration, and not a spell you could also go barbarian for an up close melee fighter rage to resist damage and you got a damage dealer with good survivability
The hunt domain cleric being able to toggle chase / avoid on the same target over and over to kite is cute
Every time the Dungeons Dudes call out Colby to make a certain build I’m happy
The way to get pseudo-Extra Attack on Cleric is Potion of Speed or a background or player race with Haste. Then use a loaded Ring of Spell Storing and a Familiar.
Would love to see you guys tackle the subclasses, or maybe even the full classes presented in Valda's Spire of Secrets. It's my favorite homebrew supplement.
Got this one and I gotta say I freaking love it
17:42 I remember the movie 9!!! it’s was so good but so horrible for child me to be watching
For the bard subclass, I was picturing it more as a tattoo artist which I think is some good flavor to throw in there. For the Druids subclass why not if you lose concentration on a spell as a reaction you could send your swarm or hive to deal xd6 damage equal to the level of the spell that you were concentrating on. Then it would feel more as if your hive is reacting toward you and actively helping you concentrate on the spell lastly for the Cleric for my reading of the channel to vanity it is the next attack so it wouldn’t be when you land in attack, then it wouldn’t apply until you land seems to be something you want to do ahead of time but that’s just my interpretation. If they wanted to, they could change the wording to say at the start of your turn no action required and less for an entire minute, which is plenty of rounds of combat.
Lmao, the segway to the sponsor was hilarious.
OMG I read this comment before I started watching the vid and it was like OMGGGGGG!!!!! When it finally hit. Hilarious!
The cleric ability says the ‘next attack that hits within the next minute’ though? So if you’ve already rolled to hit, that’s the previous attack not the next one
With the honed instinct that is a good question, but it does say next attack, and I usually call that when you see an attack roll, the attack has been made and so that would mean this feature would take the attack right after.
Sour treats got my mouth watering so fast
So depending on how the D&D 5.2e Monk shakes out, you could do a 2 level Monk dip just for Martial Arts and Weapon Mastery. You take a weapon with Nick, get the free unarmed Bonus attack. You’re now getting 3 attacks per turn and only 2 levels behind in cleric. Sure, you don’t get Extra attack or a ton of Flurry of Blows, but if you want to be more caster focused it’s definitely an option. All hypothetical based on playtest material, but we can dream lol.
Hunt Domain CD had some precedent from the Tempest Domain CD. That one doesn't require an action, but it triggered when you roll thunder or lightning damage, which then is maximized.
not sure if any one pointed out that the bard's Ritual reskin states "you can perform a
surgical ritual on creatures that you can see within 60 feet of you (including yourself), up to a number equal to your Charisma modifier" meaning that one ritual effects multiple people at once for a ten minute sit down. also when they cover the ranger i hope that they cover the traps in the book that they get
33:00 the feature says that the *next* time you deal damage, you deal max damage, so that would imply that you can't use is retroactively
Friendship ended with Swarmkeeper Ranger, now Circle of The Hive Druid is my best friend
@38:40 I would say going Ranger for your Extra Attack would be more thematic! Using Hunters Mark and Cleric Hunters Mark is also hilarious 😂
The hive Druid just made me think of playing a reborn and they’re literally in your flesh
A barbarian with 1, 8, or 14 levels of Hunt Cleric seems like a beast of a combo, too.
9 was a surprise banger when i watched it late one night alone. solied 9/10 movie
Feeling the power creep real hard with these subclasses.
I absolutely love the College of Cuisine bard. Chefs Kiss
Nine was a great movie. What a throwback.
I want to build Guy Fieri so bad now!
"Hey! Today, we're going to check out The Crumbling Necropolis! Come along on this edition of Dungeons, Dragons, and Dives!
That Sour Warhead Wombo Combo gets a *chef's kiss* from me
I think a really coolish buff for the swarm druid "thorns" ability is if it was a number of dice equal to your wis mod and maybe save for half if you really wanna not break it, maybe adding dice as you level in druid to prevent other classes from abusing it but also I can't see why it would be more busted on like a fighter than the druid who now basically has to be out of position to use it
They are giving you an extra attack via Haste in the Domain spell list.
I would like to point out, swarms typically take HALF damage from bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage. I think that is a good note for the subclass defensively. However the con save for the poison damage does hurt quite a bit.
The channel divinity on the Hunt Domain is very touchy. Since there’s no action requirement, I feel like there will be arguments at the table that you can use this ability AS you crit the enemy rather than trying to use it like a reaction since it has the wording “the next time you hit the target”. Grave domain has the same thing but the wording is a lot more clear so it works better. This ability just sounds like it will cause an argument at the table about how it applies if you don’t use it early in the fight for the information and just save it for the crit. I know they’re more common in BG3, but this ability on a ranger-rogue like Veo with different elemental arrows to target those vulnerabilities even more would be amazing.
Mine just came in the mail from the kickstarter. I'm so happy to finally have the familiar pins (what I actually backed the project to get) but the book is nice too.
A person of culture and cuteness i see
@@LootTavern Back when the kickstarter was happening, I'd just played a sapient gelatinous cube of my own brew named Booze the Ooze, and I really wanted the oozeling.
So now I have the oozeling and two (remaining) gifts for friends.
23:26 the point they made here is valid. However I'd like to say that any monster hunter worth their salt has studied the creature their about to fight extensively. They'll know if a creature uses grapples or lives underwater or some other thing. Just like the Hunt cleric, alot of these subclasses revolve around knowing what you're hunting
For the Cleric of the Hunt I would say it occurs when the player does damage is the trigger. So yes I think I would allow a rogue to know if it's a crit or not.
Have y'all done an unbiased ranking of your new subclasses? I love the arcane hand personally
Another knock against the druid subclass is that swarms can't gain temp HP so those features can't be used together. I do think you get a lot of protection from the temp HP feature though. You have enough uses to use it on most hits you take as it is wisdom modifier per short rest. That could add up to a lot of hp saved in longer adventuring days.
I would make that cleric free action trigger at the start of your turn so it becomes a big commitment since it has such a big possible payoff.
Circle of the Hive Druid: *Gets a "D"*
Swarmkeeper Ranger: "My time has come..!"
"The *next* time you hit *the* target with a weapon attack in the next minute." That means your first attack after casting channel divinity. If your first attack was a 20, then yes you would get the crit. If your first attack after casting was an 18 and still hit, that *next attack* would have max damage, but it is not a crit. This is the general rule, and if there is no specific, general applies.
Similar situations that might be different are things like Divine Smite, and Lucky, which state "you can make this choice after rolling but before the DM determines outcome" or in the case of smite, you can choose to activate the smite after landing the hit.
But in the case of "Thunderous Smite" (or any of the smites that are not Divine Smite) you have to *cast the spell first* and then *the next attack* has that effect. If it says "next attack" it means "next attack" not "that attack I just made." which would be "previous" not "next" attack.
The answer is a hard, firm, undeniable *no.* You can not choose to activate an effect AFTER the attack if it says you must activate BEFORE the attack (IE, the *NEXT* attack you make...)
The spell is worded this way in case you *missed* your next attack. In which case, like the smite, the effect is still waiting for your *next* attack to land. This is in contrast to something like an enchanted arrow which losses it's magic even if you miss. This allows you not to waste a spell slot (or in this case, your daily CD) when you whiffed the attack, as it will wait around for when you do eventually hit, provided you don't miss for a full minute.
Everything in this book is amazing!
Hunt cleric works very well with barbarian because the hunters mark like feature is not a spell and isn’t concentration so you can rage while it’s active. It could also work awry well with beast barbarian both mechanically and thematically.
This may be a niche ask, but any chance you rank all of the fighting styles available?
YOOOOO KELLY MENTIONED 9! WHAT A MOVIE!!
The book took a dreadfully long time to release, but I finally got mine and you can’t deny that it is a CHUNKY book
To be fair about the hunt channel divinity that is exactly how divine smite works. You can indeed fish for crits.
“College of Cuisine?” Oh my god I love it
Kelly and Monty covering as much dark fantasy as physically possible. Except Humblewood but the Scofflaw balanced it out 😂
Easy homebrew fix for the druid subclass is to change it to every time that a creature hits you, it takes that dice of damage. So if they hit me three times at level 14, they take 3d10 damage. I think the subclass is over tuned in that regard, as poison is often resisted anyway. And the saving throw is yet another dice roll for your DM, all while reducing the effectiveness of your subclass to begin with. I think the saving throw could easily be waved with this new change, and that this subclass would be just fine. While remaining effective and worthwhile. I mean if you are going to have a crit heavy, no concentration hunters mark cleric, then I think this is the least of my worries as a DM.
Thing is that you really don't want to get hit as a druid (or in general tbh) and doing a little damage back doesn't change that. However the subclass is fine as long as you just play it like a regular caster druid and just pretend Symbiotic Biosphere doesn't exist.
I haven't thought about the movie 9 in a while. It's so good.
I love the chef class 🥐
I like some of the ideas for crafting rules on Heliana's, but I'm not a fan of the rarity and price-based time constraints. I think it's fine to have time constraints but rarity unfortunately does not always relate to the usefulness of the item... And I don't love the recipes, will be making some of my own. That is, until we get the Dungeon Dudes crafting pack ;)
Wounder if they'll also breakdown the tamer class introduced in this book as well
I love listening to them discussing early on about what kind of foods could fit the bill of each treat column,
But *Literally* Fool's gold campaign allows a background, Called:
*_OUTBACK COOK;_*
That allows the user to tell whether or not a creature and plant is edible,
And you can cook; Aberrations, Beast, Dragon, Monstrosity, Ooze or Plant, that hasn't been dead for more than a day, and when a creature takes up to an hour to eat it. They gain *_temporary hit points= Level._*
That alone with the bards college and the Chef feat from Tasha's grants so many options..
Our book includes a full cooking system that allows to make magic meals with unique effects for the whole party for 8 hours depending on the monster parts you use to make it :)
I take a drink everytime Monty says "Hypnotic Patter-in"