My girlfriend is playing a blood druid at our table, and it's great. She's been making great use of starting off with a big sangrimancy spell, then Wither and Bloom, while using her reaction to hand out temporary health on enemy deaths. The mix of offense and support feels really impactful, and right on theme. And our fighter definitely isn't complaining about Rite!
I really like its mechanics, having a tanky character who hits really hard with only single strike while not having access to extra attack is something whats lacking in dnd
One of my players is playing a mutation druid and its felt fine and the table has found it pretty fun, not unbalanced. I've found that it encourages not always picking the same animal to wildshape into, since you can pick something more "fun" but still be effective through mutations. As a DM its also provided a fun area for homebrew by thinking of other mutation options to add. For example, we're starting to experiment with mutations that would allow for what are normally special abilities for specific beasts (swallow, spider climb, etc.) since it seems right in line with the flavor of the subclass.
Currently have a Circle of Mutation Druid at my table. The Fighter rides the Flying, Enlarged, Giant Constrictor Snake into battle regularly. If anything, it’s definitely give the wildshape-focused Druid more use for their spell slots and allows them to continue throughout the adventuring day a little longer because they’ll mutate and spend their remaining slots on keeping the party stable between fights. Powerful, but not overbearing.
You guys should also at some point consider reviewing the subclasses in Ryoko’s guide to the Yokai Realms! I know it’s not officially by WOTC but it’s not only made by a fellow dnd content creator, but it was the largest funded dnd kickstarter ever. It has some really sick stuff in it!
Seeing that the book was released a while ago and some things like the SRD and what-not have changed (also hearing the conversations of "if we could go back and change things"). It would be interesting to have a video where The Dungeon Dudes interviewed the other class creators in the book about their classes and what they would change now that they have had time to look back and really dig their own classes apart.
I actually love to see niche spells in extended spell lists, specially for classes that already have a great one, such as clerics, because you don't need to worry about preparing them, so you can prepare the amazing S tier spells and still have room for niche ocasions, the inquisition cleric in specific has an awesome spell list for out of combat investigation and disruption AND it's very thematic, points for flavor, S-tier
I played a Mutation Druid and honestly it is incredibly fun, but also the mutation costs I feel keep it balanced. My druid has since died, but while he was around it didn't seem too powerful and it mostly made wild shape I feel keep up better. (Should mention mine only got to level 5, though, so never got to test the later features.)
I had no idea that you guys wrote the Eldritch Domain cleric. One of my players told me a few week ago that she wanted to multiclass into being a cleric of The Thing With The Writhing Tail, and I sent her this subclass as what I pictured a cleric of Bruce would be.
For the Inquisitor cleric I could see the channel divinity being made much better if it's changed to be usable with your reaction so you can cast it after the spell is cast similar to an abjuration wizards ward.
I think the extra attack, potentially on top of multiattack, is probably the best mutation, i think it really helps keep wildshape relevant at late levels since you can do the big single attack higher beasts get 2 times
For sure, double the chance to crit, double effectiveness of any sort of on hit buffs. There's a reason a lot of people get that 2 level dip into fighter for action surge even JUST for extra attacks (obviously better on classes with extra attack lol)
@@maybevoldemort8995 its a lot stronger than you think it is. "oh you passed a hold person save? here is another cc on the same turn" on the other side. you can have an eldritch blast that scales off wisdom and charisma with 2 levels in warlock
@@3ldfilms not really outside of spiritual weapon. healing word you want to do later in a fight not when you want to be ccing an enemy. and i would say that the curse effect has been more handy than spiritual weapon.
Just FYI, Ghostfire did release Artificer Subclasses on the DM's Guild under Dark Fantasy Artificer. They have 2 subclasses (The Machine Cultists and the Reanimator) as well as several infusions for both Artificers old and new.
Oh! Dungeon Dad made a 5e version of a Blood Elemental a while ago. I don't remember the CR, but maybe that could be used for the blood clerics summon on higher levels? Also, a flying bear reminds me of Moosh from the two Oracle Zelda games. He was a big fluffy bear with tiny little wings who could float for a little while and AOE dive bomb enemies with his butt from above xD
Okay. The Mutations are really cool. I love that they invented a mechanic to balance giving extra features and more useful Beasts without Druids just breaking the bank.
Think a fun change for the Inquisitor Domain is to change the Channel Divinity feature to a reaction. It still keeps the features great flavor and potency, but it isn’t ruined by that Flesh Golem rocking your ally.
I have been playing the Eldritch Cleric for a year now, lvl 1-8. I have to say I don't often use the subclass spells, but it is super fun to have spells such as see invisibility and detect thoughts because they are great to have in your back pocket. For me, what feels most restrictive is all the prerequisites for the Eldritch effects. The idea of having a separate table when targeting allies would be awesome. Right now what happens is 1. Use a levelled spell (low levels you don't have so many, and now a cantrip is stronger than a guiding bolt). 2. Target an enemy (so it doesn't trigger when you cast healing word, aid, bless etc etc). So you have to adapt your spell selection. 3. Spend a bonus action (so don't use spiritual weapon) 4. Then they need to fail their save 5. Then you hope you roll a useful effect (so many silenced wolves etc whahahah. But some effects are super strong which is fun). 6. Then they get to re-save every turn. It does feel like I give up on a lot of options, in order to hopefully have something happen. When it works out it can be fantastic. So I like the risk, I love the reckless being there because that can potentially really screw you up. But an extra table for when you buff allies, or a larger table and then maybe getting to roll 2 dice like the WM Sorc at some point, would be fun. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.
With DnD Beyond adding Dungeons of Drakkenheim and Lairs of Etharis, is there a plan to add more Ghostfire gaming content like this guide and Sebastian Crowe's?
I'm loving these reviews of 3rd party content! Since you guys love Eldritch and Cosmic horror so much, you would probably love Steinhardt's Guide to the Eldritch Hunt as a 3rd party source to review the class/subclasses from!
I have actully been playing an eldritch domain cleric in a game im in. It is a real spell bruiser and you for sure get eldritch blast. Also picked up agonizing blast through a feat for +8 damage on eldritch blast. Insane and for sure an A.
I would love reviews of the best third party material and subclasses and classes. Kibbles Tasty Homebrew and Valda's Spire of Secrets are two great resources for example with both subclasses and classes to review.
Gotta say though, this video really convinced me to go and buy some Grimhollow books for my collection. I had been putting it off but these sound way too fun to pass up on building a character for.
*I love reviews of third party creators.* Even if I don't (currently) own or love the product, I want to learn more and generally support third party. *I am glad the Dudes do this.*
Love the vibe of the Inquisitor. I can’t imagine the power trip they’d feel stalking and shutting down a fugitive caster. It definitely feels like one of those subclasses that’s meant for a specialized campaign. I think this would make a fantastic villain to really scare your casters. Also, I’m pretty sure they’d try to kill the mutant Druid and the heretic bloodbender!
I am a gambler and I like WiodMagic Sorcerer. The about the WM table is that you have some bad effects. One thing should be interest on Eldritch Effects for your cleric subclass is: - on the subsequent turns, the save is rolled with advantage. - it is not optional. For this reason, it dont cost your bonus action AND it does affect your allies (bless, Healing spells). And prevents you of spamming spells and effects. Sounds weird at first but thing about it.
I do want to comment on the inquisitor that it's a great concept but I think the design would benefit from a more expanded range - inquisitors in 3.5 weren't just good at nullifying magic, they also had bonuses for dealing with outsider threats like demons, and particularly forcing the truth out of them or negating some of their spell-like abilities that could corrupt or bewitch others. Also, I feel like their ability where they use a reaction to blow up someone casting a spell could give them a disadvantage on their next concentration check
the inquisitor cleric seems cool and I would totaly love to try playing one as crossbow wielding "van helsing" character hunting down cultists and witches!
The more you cover these choices makes me want to buy this book. All sound fun and interesting. Yup Malleus Maleficarum is “ The Witch’s Hammer” I wanted to play an Inquisitor in PF all about wrecking casters.
For the Inquisition domain cleric, that could also be huge for shutting down casters in your own party. In my current game, the party wizard has nearly done as much damage to party members as they have to enemies. If I had an ability to drop temp HP on an ally and ensure they would take minimal damage from friendly caster fire, that would be an amazing choice.
I've been playing a Mutation druid, but I'm only at level 5, so I can't really compare outside those levels. I never used flight because it is just too expensive. The problem is that the attack bonus of beast is really low and there is no way to increase it (same with moon druids). The mutations are great, I reduced a bear to enter a building, I made my beast's claws magical to overcome the resistance of a mini-boss, I undermined a city as a huge cave badger... I noticed something missing though: You can make creatures swim, you can make creatures fly, but you can't make creatures WALK... My DM and I added a new mutation like those that gives a walking speed, so now I go around as a weird giant octopus with the body of a large cat chimera thingy grappling people around (maybe I'll make be a flying octopus thingy some day soon)...
Had a circle of mutations druid for 8 levels that I DMed. We had to make changes lol. For our table we set certain mutations behind level restrictions. (Swim lvl4, fly lvl6, magic attacks lvl6, and i think we locked blindsight behind a level as well but I dont remember.) Our goal was that it would be more equal to the moon druid. It was still very strong.
One thing I like about the blood druid is that the risk of their sangromancy could theoretically be kited around with wildshape buffers, though I must say you'd probably want one with really high con given all the concentration checks they'd be making from using it. Also, are you using the adapted version of the 3.5 blood elemental where they have some poison abilities?
I think, even more than the barbarian, i could see using strength for intimidation for animals. And, if you can make the stretch, i could even see a wisdom (intimidation) ability check where wisdom is representing primal power.
I LOVE the Concept of a multiclass build with path of the primal spirit barbarian and a circle of mutation druid! A mutated primal companion with shared Rage sounds like a lot of fun.
I would say the major fixes to make the inquisitor cleric good would be: 1) Add absorb elements to their spell list, this would add to their channel divinity when they use it on themselves, turning them into a real cool elemental juggernaut. 2) Add counter spell to their list, making it so that their 6th level feature triggers whenever they successfully counter spell, this to me makes for a really cool mage hunter vibe, both shutting out spells and then further damaging the opponent. 3) I would do a reverse Yuan-Ti on it, so that it's channel divinity works both on spells and magical effects, this makes it a ton less situational. And Optional Crazy Ideas: 4) Maybe at 17th level you could buff both the channel divinity and it's counterspell, so it steals spells from enemies for a one time use when they counter spell them, kinda like the arcane trickster's spell thief feature. Just a few ideas if anyone thinks they work. Idk how to do it but I also think some kind of spirit guardians mixed with anti magic field could be a cool 17th level feature.
There are better optimazers out there and there are channels which are solely focused on the role-play part of the game but there is no other channel - I know of - which brings both together in such an entertaining way. I love that you guys are covering third-party content now. What I hope you could look at is "Exploring Eberron" and "Morgrave Miscellany" by Keith Barker. Both are not officially published by WotC. Thanks for enchanting my favourite Hobby.
So, what I am hearing is that you feel the SRD limited the design of your subclass design. In a published work, you can’t just say - “Homebrew this spell list” But, in a post publishing review video, you can say “A simple fix to this subclass to bring up its power, and fit the theme better is to homebrew in Non-SRD spells such as
I've played with the mutation druid, and it's not broken for the simple reason that you can counter it by having the enemy polymorph into something stronger than the base form. The druid then can use mutations to give themself modifications that let them win, so it is a fun tactical challenge for the player. We had fun.
Wouldn't it be better to specify a class and/or spell schools to pick the spells from for a subclass' extended spell list, instead of picking specific ones from the SRD alone? For example, I think all the spells you cited as ones you'd pick for the Eldritch domain are either Enchantment or Conjuration spells from the Warlock spell list.
Makes me want to grab magic initiate for mage armor to cast it, have a base of 13. Giant wasp for 16 AC then pay 3 mutation points to have a 19 AC. Plus shield of faith with human variant, 21 AC at lvl 4. Damn
As a dm, I am using the inquisitor as an antagonist but giving them counterspell As a player, too narrow of a subject unless I knew the campaign was spell centric
I love how you guys have started reminding people that the designers of Third party content are real people, and to take their feelings in consideration. Is this confirmation that WOTC have replaced their writing staff with AI and we do not need to worry about hurting their feelings? Where did I put my tinfoil hats?😊
I played an inquisition cleric in an Erathis campaign recently. Though it's not overpowered I used every ability regularly. Gottfried was xenophobic zealot whos dogmatic approach was easy to rp bit a nightmare for the magic using players.. Our party wizard I was absolutely suspect, which made for fun dynamics. Ultimately "Gottfried" was contaminated and began to transform into an abberant horror, which his religious zeal couldn't resolve... walking onto his own pyre was the saddest moment I have played out. 10/10 would do it again.
If y’all wanna continue reviewing subclasses from 3rd party content, once Grims gets covered, might I suggest KibblesTasty and The Griffon Saddle Bag as dope contenders?
Not gonna lie, I think one of the best things you've started doing is reviewing 3rd party resources. And I love all your stuff. It might be nice to credit the creator of the subclass.
I would like to point out that the druids from that movie might've been fictional but real celtic and germanic druids definitely did ritual human sacrifice and likewise would behave and sound erratically to psych out opponents in a battle
I understand and agree with the critiques about the Inquisitor Sub Class. But 3 to 4 enemy casters per campaign? Why???? I have at least one caster in every encounter I make. Now they aren't a maxed out Arch Mage, but a Goblin Shaman based off the Mephit stat Blocks? Absolutely! A Orcish Warlock based off the Mage Stat Block? 100%. The PCs will be slinging spells every encounter. So should the monsters, IMO.
Maybe I made the mistake, but I thought I had said 3-4 per arc. Usually my adventure arcs include a mini boss battle and a final battle, both usually include a spellcaster of some sort. Usually a campaign has 6-10 arcs. So technically I’d be using on average 12-20 spellcasters. Sometimes though my adventures are things like “party goes to take out the red wizards” which would obviously deal with a whole lot more spell casters. But the issue with the subclass is that regardless, there are a large number of combats where there is no spellcaster… and it would fall short.
Even if the Inquisitor Cleric is a bit of a niche pick for a player, I would LOVE to take inspiration from some of its features to design a boss NPC. That strategy around knocking away its temp HP to remove its spell resistance would even make for an awesome puzzle they can try to solve in the middle of the fight!
I'm sorry but your review of Inquisition Domain is questionable at best. Everything that you said was niche can be used on non-spellcasters except for Rebuke invoker. You kept bringing up a goblin camp as if that's an example that would somehow make Inquisition Domain useless but adding another 1d8 force damage at level 1 with Which Hunter's Strike when you're already wielding a Martial Weapon means you're going to be one shotting most things or just ripping out huge chunks of health if you run into something bigger. Even if you're not getting hit with spells, the ability to give yourself or your party members 10 extra temp hp with the Channel Divinity as early as level 2 is nothing to sneeze at either. Then by 8th level you're tacking on another 1d8 to your melee attacks, plus witch hunter's strike and if you're going down the normal melee cleric route you've also picked up Booming Blade and Crusher... that's 4d8+str mod and then another 2d8 if that target moves after you've pushed them back with Crusher. At that point you're out damaging a fighter at 8th level easy and we've not even brought Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon into the mix, which any melee cleric is absolutely going to do. I normally don't ever bother with a melee cleric because you're right, cantrips are usually much more powerful but Inquisition Domain is enough to tip that balance and it doesn't rely on fighting spellcasters to work.
(Context: Inquisitor Domain) In many campaigns I've run/been in or around, goblin/kobold shamans are a common trope for "mid tier" minions in early encounters. In general, atleast 1 combat encounter per session will have 1-2 casters. Each of which will have 1 area/control spell, a cantrip, and 1-2 uses of a utility/support spell. It helps spice up combat without overwhelming players. Depending on how things have been going, the goblin shaman may have just found a magic stick it can somewhat use... or it could be a witch's aprentice who's been cursed. The former may run in and accidently misfire their fireball at their feet, still catching a couple members of the party before "defusing" itself. The latter may cloak the field in fog to enhance a planed ambush with a vortex warp. This is ofc just my experience, and an awfully long rant certainly not inspired by the use of any substances. All to say that in a campaign with the encounters I described, this subclass would easily be an S. Which is why personally I'd put it at B, however I can understand why other's may see differently.
Cleric Eldritch Domain is best Eldritch Blast class/subclass. It makes Eldritch Blast a Cleric Cantrip so it get's empowered and if you have some Charisma adding Agonizing Blasts through Eldritch Adept feat or some level dips into the Warlock is so nice. 1D10+Wis+Cha per blast.
The Flying PC Arms Lol. I once had aarakocra Barbarian/Paladin backed up by a Sorlock and a Valor Bard. Every Combat Encounter was: 1st round Buff the bird, 2nd round deliver the nuke. They had an answer to every combat I could put together it was wild.
I am confused. The B Rank is for situational subclasses. They literally described the Inquisition Domain in a way that seemed to be exact B Rank because in a campaign against a lot of magic users it would be great! A lot of creatures use magic. Undead, Most Fey, Daemons, Devils... So I really feel confused. I realize my comments seem negative...
So I was running a Grim-hollow-esque campaign, but on the Sword Coast. I didn't have a blood druid in the campaign, however I DID have an enemy druid that they had to fight, who functioned as a boss before a puzzle encounter. He was scaled to the party, so I gave him the abilities of an 8th level Blood druid. Between him and his giant direwolf companions (who were corrupted with the dark magic present in this campaign, so everything had a touch of chaos to it), he put up a damn good challenge to the party. There isn't anything in your subclass I would be concerned with or feel I couldn't still challenge as DM, and it was fun to run an NPC based on this subclass. I absolutely want to play one at a table!
I know Kelly didn't have any bad intentions, but 'Cool' is not at all the reaction any half way decent person should have to the Malleus Maleficarum. Seperatly, I get the marital weapons, I don't particularly see why a witch hunter type cleric would be leaning into heavy armour particularly, though I do agree that Counterspell in place of Remove Curse seems like an utter no brainer. I am also a little leery on the Eldrich Cleric. While the randomness mitigates, as does the less than stellar spell list, the power of most of the effects, without concentration OR saves each round to end the effect, does open the door to some really powerful control that is all but unmatched. One thing re the previous Grimh0llow class vid, the limit on 'twinning' necromancy spells seems overly restrictive when keeping the free 'twinning' of enchantment that enchantment wizards get. The range of possibilities (Hold and Dominate spells, Suggestion, Ego Whip, Feeblemind) enchantment has dwarfs necromancy. So you can double cast Finger of Death, fine, that's strong, but, it's far from close to being at the 'powwwer' end of subclass abilities. For the 'not knowing what spell an NPC is casting'. 5e seems specificly set up so that a DM 'should' not be telling you that information. If you have the ability to do something in reaction to a spell being cast, eg Counterspell, from the way it is layed out in the text, your doing that blind. This is an spect of 3e that I thought was very good, being able to tell (with an appropriate skill check) what someone was casting (which was a key aspect of much of the counterspelling mechanics there). 5e seems specificly set up so that even an expert caster doesn't know what another caster is doing until the spell has been cast (which is deeply dumb, but also in line with the streamlined and simplistic nature of 5e mechanics). So with all of that said, there is zero reason why the anti mage cleric would know to use their ability on a given spell casting cos it's a big boom of a spell or just a cantrip.
Hello Dungeon Dudes! I DM'd for a campaign taking place in Etharis (the Grim Hollow world) and I had a Circle of Mutation Druid at the table. The player leaned into charisma and basically played the class like a movie Horror monster. Describing in gruesome detail the horrifying creatures he mutated into and ambushing enemies, scaring the crap out of em. It was a really cool concept for a character and all of us at the table had a blast with it! I think in terms of power it feels equivalent (if not a bit stronger) then Moon Druid at early levels. The lack of elemental wild shape does kinda hurt the late game and I'm not sure it QUITE keeps up with Moon Druid in the late game. That being said, the flavor is great and I never really liked the flavor of Moon druids turning into Elementals. I get the concept, but the Circle of Mutation feels more appropriately primal, and horrifying.
The Mutations Circle is OP cause you're taking the most powerful subclass and adding on it (as you said). At least it should use the normal WildShape table, or mutating breaks your concentration (or provoke conc save).
C to B is where classes should be landing. Player classes/subclasses should be something a DM can counter & play around. They shouldn't just be good overall without weaknesses (especially without exploitable weaknesses).
@DungeonDudes I get what you were trying to say when talking about the druid (the anachronism of it all). My take is that D&D combines what games like World of Warcraft separates: the druid and the shaman. Two different things, but for some reason D&D kinda has these two ideas smashed together. The druid has always been more about nature and shaman typically more associated with totems, blood rituals, and the elements themselves (which depending on the mythology you're looking at, blood is an element).
Just had a thought - if a Circle of Mutation Druid wildshaped into some kind of lizard, made it large, gave it flying and poison - you could effectively have a Druid who can wildshape into a Wyvern. Thats nuts I love it.
Circle of blood makes me think of a potentially fun idea for something I might homebrew. A blight themed druid, it's an interesting perversion of the stereotypical druid tropes. I already have some fun ideas like adding a fluff feature at each level to show the idea of being corrupted by the magic. The actual features I have in mind come down to the idea of the blood boon as said here but since I don't want to base it off sangromancy I'd go with: -you gain extra hit dice when creatures within 30ft die you gain a hit dice (not from plants or constructs) excess hitdice can exceed your current max hit dice by an amount equal to half your druid level. -you can upcast spells by spending hit dice equal to the level of the spell. -you can choose a plant creature with a stat block and spend a number of hitdice equal to that creature's cr (minimum of one) I'm not sure what else to add, I like the idea of having you spawn a twig blight when you longest, it would serve your orders, share your combat turn, and I may make it so this comes early to mid with you getting the ability to summon up to x cr worth of blights and or spend hit-dice on a rest to create additional blights. It's rough, and not looked at too thoroughly through a balance perspective. I'm working on ideas, what I want it to do, and then from there I'm planning on buffing and nerfing it as needed.
Inspired here on the Eldritch Cleric (my player feels a pressure to ignore buff spells as they don't synergize with Eldritch Contagion): So now building an Eldritch Blessing rollable table with beneficial effects.
Hey dungeon dudes, when you mentioned you're "locked" into choosing spells, for the domains, in the cleric you felt you would want some from different sources. Would it be worth adding the caveat to the text, like it is done with abberant mind sorceror, that you can replace any of these spells with any that fall into, for example, abjuration or evocation. That way you have your list and use the SRD like you needed, but gives players freedom to mix and match what they wanted to play what you envisioned further. Great subclasses though 😊
I understand that a precedent has been set for it, I understand that it makes sense because they're a more martially inclined cleric, but I **hate** clerics getting heavy armor. Paladin should be your Divine heavy armor wearer. Not cleric. Fighter and paladin are the heavy armor classes, yet you don't get heavy armor from multiclassing into them after 1st level. But 1 level of cleric can give you heavy armor? I don't like it Edit to add: like I said, I understand it. I can't really fault the creators for doing it. But I don't like it.
My girlfriend is playing a blood druid at our table, and it's great. She's been making great use of starting off with a big sangrimancy spell, then Wither and Bloom, while using her reaction to hand out temporary health on enemy deaths. The mix of offense and support feels really impactful, and right on theme. And our fighter definitely isn't complaining about Rite!
I LOVE the idea of the inquisition cleric. If not as a player subclass but more so as an antagonist to send at spell casting PCs!
That’s such a good idea!
A 1 level dip on my melee warlock that has 14 wisdom feels tempting…
I really like its mechanics, having a tanky character who hits really hard with only single strike while not having access to extra attack is something whats lacking in dnd
One of my players is playing a mutation druid and its felt fine and the table has found it pretty fun, not unbalanced. I've found that it encourages not always picking the same animal to wildshape into, since you can pick something more "fun" but still be effective through mutations.
As a DM its also provided a fun area for homebrew by thinking of other mutation options to add. For example, we're starting to experiment with mutations that would allow for what are normally special abilities for specific beasts (swallow, spider climb, etc.) since it seems right in line with the flavor of the subclass.
This review of third party is great. I love seeing thoughts on stuff that is different from the classes and subclasses that we know and love.
Currently have a Circle of Mutation Druid at my table. The Fighter rides the Flying, Enlarged, Giant Constrictor Snake into battle regularly. If anything, it’s definitely give the wildshape-focused Druid more use for their spell slots and allows them to continue throughout the adventuring day a little longer because they’ll mutate and spend their remaining slots on keeping the party stable between fights. Powerful, but not overbearing.
You guys should also at some point consider reviewing the subclasses in Ryoko’s guide to the Yokai Realms! I know it’s not officially by WOTC but it’s not only made by a fellow dnd content creator, but it was the largest funded dnd kickstarter ever. It has some really sick stuff in it!
YES THIS
I SECOND THIS.
I THIRD it!!
Yessss please!!!
I FORTH THIS
Those Dungeon Dude subclasses are pretty awesome, they should consider making a book or two ;)
These reviews of Grimhollow just confirmed my need to obtain a book. As always a great video
Seeing that the book was released a while ago and some things like the SRD and what-not have changed (also hearing the conversations of "if we could go back and change things"). It would be interesting to have a video where The Dungeon Dudes interviewed the other class creators in the book about their classes and what they would change now that they have had time to look back and really dig their own classes apart.
I actually love to see niche spells in extended spell lists, specially for classes that already have a great one, such as clerics, because you don't need to worry about preparing them, so you can prepare the amazing S tier spells and still have room for niche ocasions, the inquisition cleric in specific has an awesome spell list for out of combat investigation and disruption AND it's very thematic, points for flavor, S-tier
I played a Mutation Druid and honestly it is incredibly fun, but also the mutation costs I feel keep it balanced. My druid has since died, but while he was around it didn't seem too powerful and it mostly made wild shape I feel keep up better. (Should mention mine only got to level 5, though, so never got to test the later features.)
I am here for these videos. Your subclass tier lists brought me to this channel, and seeing more from 3rd party creators is even better.
I had no idea that you guys wrote the Eldritch Domain cleric. One of my players told me a few week ago that she wanted to multiclass into being a cleric of The Thing With The Writhing Tail, and I sent her this subclass as what I pictured a cleric of Bruce would be.
For the Inquisitor cleric I could see the channel divinity being made much better if it's changed to be usable with your reaction so you can cast it after the spell is cast similar to an abjuration wizards ward.
I think the extra attack, potentially on top of multiattack, is probably the best mutation, i think it really helps keep wildshape relevant at late levels since you can do the big single attack higher beasts get 2 times
For sure, double the chance to crit, double effectiveness of any sort of on hit buffs. There's a reason a lot of people get that 2 level dip into fighter for action surge even JUST for extra attacks (obviously better on classes with extra attack lol)
I'd love for you guys to rank the classes and subclasses in Valda's Spire of Secrets
Thank you for reviewing and guiding through al of these fun and creative ideas! will be exciting to learn about the next parts
Love this book and I'm loving this series.
Running an eldritch domain cleric in my current game, didn't know you guys made it so thank you!
How are you finding it? Looks interesting, but maybe not hugely strong
@@maybevoldemort8995 its a lot stronger than you think it is. "oh you passed a hold person save? here is another cc on the same turn" on the other side. you can have an eldritch blast that scales off wisdom and charisma with 2 levels in warlock
@@moxopal675ohh that is a spicy combo, didn’t think of that
I think if it didn’t require a bonus action for the wild magic it would be really strong. Clerics have so many uses for bonus actions.
@@3ldfilms not really outside of spiritual weapon. healing word you want to do later in a fight not when you want to be ccing an enemy. and i would say that the curse effect has been more handy than spiritual weapon.
Just FYI, Ghostfire did release Artificer Subclasses on the DM's Guild under Dark Fantasy Artificer. They have 2 subclasses (The Machine Cultists and the Reanimator) as well as several infusions for both Artificers old and new.
Oh! Dungeon Dad made a 5e version of a Blood Elemental a while ago. I don't remember the CR, but maybe that could be used for the blood clerics summon on higher levels?
Also, a flying bear reminds me of Moosh from the two Oracle Zelda games. He was a big fluffy bear with tiny little wings who could float for a little while and AOE dive bomb enemies with his butt from above xD
Okay. The Mutations are really cool. I love that they invented a mechanic to balance giving extra features and more useful Beasts without Druids just breaking the bank.
Think a fun change for the Inquisitor Domain is to change the Channel Divinity feature to a reaction. It still keeps the features great flavor and potency, but it isn’t ruined by that Flesh Golem rocking your ally.
I would really like to see you review the MCDM Talent class.
I have been playing the Eldritch Cleric for a year now, lvl 1-8. I have to say I don't often use the subclass spells, but it is super fun to have spells such as see invisibility and detect thoughts because they are great to have in your back pocket.
For me, what feels most restrictive is all the prerequisites for the Eldritch effects. The idea of having a separate table when targeting allies would be awesome. Right now what happens is
1. Use a levelled spell (low levels you don't have so many, and now a cantrip is stronger than a guiding bolt).
2. Target an enemy (so it doesn't trigger when you cast healing word, aid, bless etc etc). So you have to adapt your spell selection.
3. Spend a bonus action (so don't use spiritual weapon)
4. Then they need to fail their save
5. Then you hope you roll a useful effect (so many silenced wolves etc whahahah. But some effects are super strong which is fun).
6. Then they get to re-save every turn.
It does feel like I give up on a lot of options, in order to hopefully have something happen. When it works out it can be fantastic. So I like the risk, I love the reckless being there because that can potentially really screw you up. But an extra table for when you buff allies, or a larger table and then maybe getting to roll 2 dice like the WM Sorc at some point, would be fun.
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.
With DnD Beyond adding Dungeons of Drakkenheim and Lairs of Etharis, is there a plan to add more Ghostfire gaming content like this guide and Sebastian Crowe's?
I'm loving these reviews of 3rd party content! Since you guys love Eldritch and Cosmic horror so much, you would probably love Steinhardt's Guide to the Eldritch Hunt as a 3rd party source to review the class/subclasses from!
Yes!! I really want to know their thoughts on the Jaeger
I have actully been playing an eldritch domain cleric in a game im in. It is a real spell bruiser and you for sure get eldritch blast. Also picked up agonizing blast through a feat for +8 damage on eldritch blast. Insane and for sure an A.
I would love reviews of the best third party material and subclasses and classes. Kibbles Tasty Homebrew and Valda's Spire of Secrets are two great resources for example with both subclasses and classes to review.
Gotta say though, this video really convinced me to go and buy some Grimhollow books for my collection. I had been putting it off but these sound way too fun to pass up on building a character for.
*I love reviews of third party creators.* Even if I don't (currently) own or love the product, I want to learn more and generally support third party. *I am glad the Dudes do this.*
Looking forward to the Rogue subclasses!
Steinhardts guide to the eldritch hunt would be a fun one to review! :)
The new humblewood subclass or races video would be cool . Also the spells you talk about in this video also
Thanks dudds!
Hey dudes, keep it up with the great work, hugs from Brazil :)
Love the vibe of the Inquisitor. I can’t imagine the power trip they’d feel stalking and shutting down a fugitive caster.
It definitely feels like one of those subclasses that’s meant for a specialized campaign. I think this would make a fantastic villain to really scare your casters.
Also, I’m pretty sure they’d try to kill the mutant Druid and the heretic bloodbender!
Thanks guys
I am a gambler and I like WiodMagic Sorcerer. The about the WM table is that you have some bad effects.
One thing should be interest on Eldritch Effects for your cleric subclass is:
- on the subsequent turns, the save is rolled with advantage.
- it is not optional. For this reason, it dont cost your bonus action AND it does affect your allies (bless, Healing spells). And prevents you of spamming spells and effects. Sounds weird at first but thing about it.
Ooh really hope y’all do develop a gambler bard. That’d be amazing!!!
I do want to comment on the inquisitor that it's a great concept but I think the design would benefit from a more expanded range - inquisitors in 3.5 weren't just good at nullifying magic, they also had bonuses for dealing with outsider threats like demons, and particularly forcing the truth out of them or negating some of their spell-like abilities that could corrupt or bewitch others. Also, I feel like their ability where they use a reaction to blow up someone casting a spell could give them a disadvantage on their next concentration check
the inquisitor cleric seems cool and I would totaly love to try playing one as crossbow wielding "van helsing" character hunting down cultists and witches!
🎉🎉Great episode!!!! Love it 😮😮😊😊👹🫂
The more you cover these choices makes me want to buy this book. All sound fun and interesting. Yup Malleus Maleficarum is “ The Witch’s Hammer” I wanted to play an Inquisitor in PF all about wrecking casters.
It's very interesting hearing the insight of your creative process and inspirations when your created some of these subclasses!
Will you also discuss the GrimHollow Fan-content (non-SRD) Artificer subclasses? They're pretty awesome
Omg I’d love to play both Druid subclasses! As a Moon Druid, both have great flavor…mutation one is OP lol
For the Inquisition domain cleric, that could also be huge for shutting down casters in your own party. In my current game, the party wizard has nearly done as much damage to party members as they have to enemies. If I had an ability to drop temp HP on an ally and ensure they would take minimal damage from friendly caster fire, that would be an amazing choice.
The Inquisitor cleric sounds more like a DM big bad or big bad support character.
I've been playing a Mutation druid, but I'm only at level 5, so I can't really compare outside those levels.
I never used flight because it is just too expensive.
The problem is that the attack bonus of beast is really low and there is no way to increase it (same with moon druids).
The mutations are great, I reduced a bear to enter a building, I made my beast's claws magical to overcome the resistance of a mini-boss, I undermined a city as a huge cave badger...
I noticed something missing though: You can make creatures swim, you can make creatures fly, but you can't make creatures WALK... My DM and I added a new mutation like those that gives a walking speed, so now I go around as a weird giant octopus with the body of a large cat chimera thingy grappling people around (maybe I'll make be a flying octopus thingy some day soon)...
Had a circle of mutations druid for 8 levels that I DMed. We had to make changes lol. For our table we set certain mutations behind level restrictions. (Swim lvl4, fly lvl6, magic attacks lvl6, and i think we locked blindsight behind a level as well but I dont remember.) Our goal was that it would be more equal to the moon druid. It was still very strong.
One thing I like about the blood druid is that the risk of their sangromancy could theoretically be kited around with wildshape buffers, though I must say you'd probably want one with really high con given all the concentration checks they'd be making from using it. Also, are you using the adapted version of the 3.5 blood elemental where they have some poison abilities?
Would you rank / review the transformations from the Grim Hollow Game master guide? They are so spicy!
I think, even more than the barbarian, i could see using strength for intimidation for animals.
And, if you can make the stretch, i could even see a wisdom (intimidation) ability check where wisdom is representing primal power.
I LOVE the Concept of a multiclass build with path of the primal spirit barbarian and a circle of mutation druid! A mutated primal companion with shared Rage sounds like a lot of fun.
I've already made a college of gambling bard for a western style fantasy campaign.
I would say the major fixes to make the inquisitor cleric good would be:
1) Add absorb elements to their spell list, this would add to their channel divinity when they use it on themselves, turning them into a real cool elemental juggernaut.
2) Add counter spell to their list, making it so that their 6th level feature triggers whenever they successfully counter spell, this to me makes for a really cool mage hunter vibe, both shutting out spells and then further damaging the opponent.
3) I would do a reverse Yuan-Ti on it, so that it's channel divinity works both on spells and magical effects, this makes it a ton less situational.
And Optional Crazy Ideas:
4) Maybe at 17th level you could buff both the channel divinity and it's counterspell, so it steals spells from enemies for a one time use when they counter spell them, kinda like the arcane trickster's spell thief feature.
Just a few ideas if anyone thinks they work. Idk how to do it but I also think some kind of spirit guardians mixed with anti magic field could be a cool 17th level feature.
There are better optimazers out there and there are channels which are solely focused on the role-play part of the game but there is no other channel - I know of - which brings both together in such an entertaining way.
I love that you guys are covering third-party content now. What I hope you could look at is "Exploring Eberron" and "Morgrave Miscellany" by Keith Barker. Both are not officially published by WotC.
Thanks for enchanting my favourite Hobby.
So, what I am hearing is that you feel the SRD limited the design of your subclass design. In a published work, you can’t just say - “Homebrew this spell list”
But, in a post publishing review video, you can say “A simple fix to this subclass to bring up its power, and fit the theme better is to homebrew in Non-SRD spells such as
Will these EVER be available on D&D beyond? If its not in motion already then could you two legends do anything about it? Sending love from the UK!
Imagine playing a inquisitior of mystra and she sends you out to capture or eliminate rogue wizards
I've played with the mutation druid, and it's not broken for the simple reason that you can counter it by having the enemy polymorph into something stronger than the base form. The druid then can use mutations to give themself modifications that let them win, so it is a fun tactical challenge for the player. We had fun.
I had a player use the mutation Druid. Turned into a giant wolf after conjuring wolves. Then the pack just ate an ogre
Me casting polymorph on the fighter to make an enlarged flying venomous t-Rex with extra amour.
As a DM if it’s suppose to be a spell like attack I would rule inquisition ability works.
The concept of the Inquisitor Cleric is awesome, but oof the execution falls pretty flat. A better anti-mage is literally anyone with counterspell.
Mutation is busted! I'd love to play it but would feel bad with the newer dms I play with lol
Wouldn't it be better to specify a class and/or spell schools to pick the spells from for a subclass' extended spell list, instead of picking specific ones from the SRD alone?
For example, I think all the spells you cited as ones you'd pick for the Eldritch domain are either Enchantment or Conjuration spells from the Warlock spell list.
Makes me want to grab magic initiate for mage armor to cast it, have a base of 13. Giant wasp for 16 AC then pay 3 mutation points to have a 19 AC. Plus shield of faith with human variant, 21 AC at lvl 4. Damn
As a dm, I am using the inquisitor as an antagonist but giving them counterspell
As a player, too narrow of a subject unless I knew the campaign was spell centric
I love how you guys have started reminding people that the designers of Third party content are real people, and to take their feelings in consideration. Is this confirmation that WOTC have replaced their writing staff with AI and we do not need to worry about hurting their feelings? Where did I put my tinfoil hats?😊
I played an inquisition cleric in an Erathis campaign recently. Though it's not overpowered I used every ability regularly.
Gottfried was xenophobic zealot whos dogmatic approach was easy to rp bit a nightmare for the magic using players.. Our party wizard I was absolutely suspect, which made for fun dynamics.
Ultimately "Gottfried" was contaminated and began to transform into an abberant horror, which his religious zeal couldn't resolve... walking onto his own pyre was the saddest moment I have played out.
10/10 would do it again.
I personally am a fan of the drugged up Fighter from GH. Is this one yours, too?
If y’all wanna continue reviewing subclasses from 3rd party content, once Grims gets covered, might I suggest KibblesTasty and The Griffon Saddle Bag as dope contenders?
I'm so glad you are reviewing Grim Hollow stuff! Had the book for ages and can't wait for your thoughts 😊
Inquisitor subclass should have had see invisibility swapped for counter spell in the spell list.
Okay, but Eldritch Cleric with quarterstaff and shillelagh goes hard.
Not gonna lie, I think one of the best things you've started doing is reviewing 3rd party resources. And I love all your stuff. It might be nice to credit the creator of the subclass.
Love these third party videos. Maybe your favorites (not all) from Valdas Spire or Tome of Heroes next? 😊
I'm imagining a Simic Hybrid Circle of Mutation Druid or a Dhampir Circle of Blood Druid! What do you think?
I would like to point out that the druids from that movie might've been fictional but real celtic and germanic druids definitely did ritual human sacrifice and likewise would behave and sound erratically to psych out opponents in a battle
I understand and agree with the critiques about the Inquisitor Sub Class. But 3 to 4 enemy casters per campaign? Why????
I have at least one caster in every encounter I make. Now they aren't a maxed out Arch Mage, but a Goblin Shaman based off the Mephit stat Blocks? Absolutely!
A Orcish Warlock based off the Mage Stat Block? 100%.
The PCs will be slinging spells every encounter. So should the monsters, IMO.
Maybe I made the mistake, but I thought I had said 3-4 per arc. Usually my adventure arcs include a mini boss battle and a final battle, both usually include a spellcaster of some sort. Usually a campaign has 6-10 arcs. So technically I’d be using on average 12-20 spellcasters.
Sometimes though my adventures are things like “party goes to take out the red wizards” which would obviously deal with a whole lot more spell casters. But the issue with the subclass is that regardless, there are a large number of combats where there is no spellcaster… and it would fall short.
@@DungeonDudes I think I miss heard. 😅 love you're guys stuff! ❤️
The coolest thing about the eldritch domain cleric is that if you want to play a chaotic aligned religious character, it is the subclass for you.
Even if the Inquisitor Cleric is a bit of a niche pick for a player, I would LOVE to take inspiration from some of its features to design a boss NPC. That strategy around knocking away its temp HP to remove its spell resistance would even make for an awesome puzzle they can try to solve in the middle of the fight!
I'm sorry but your review of Inquisition Domain is questionable at best. Everything that you said was niche can be used on non-spellcasters except for Rebuke invoker. You kept bringing up a goblin camp as if that's an example that would somehow make Inquisition Domain useless but adding another 1d8 force damage at level 1 with Which Hunter's Strike when you're already wielding a Martial Weapon means you're going to be one shotting most things or just ripping out huge chunks of health if you run into something bigger. Even if you're not getting hit with spells, the ability to give yourself or your party members 10 extra temp hp with the Channel Divinity as early as level 2 is nothing to sneeze at either. Then by 8th level you're tacking on another 1d8 to your melee attacks, plus witch hunter's strike and if you're going down the normal melee cleric route you've also picked up Booming Blade and Crusher... that's 4d8+str mod and then another 2d8 if that target moves after you've pushed them back with Crusher. At that point you're out damaging a fighter at 8th level easy and we've not even brought Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon into the mix, which any melee cleric is absolutely going to do.
I normally don't ever bother with a melee cleric because you're right, cantrips are usually much more powerful but Inquisition Domain is enough to tip that balance and it doesn't rely on fighting spellcasters to work.
(Context: Inquisitor Domain) In many campaigns I've run/been in or around, goblin/kobold shamans are a common trope for "mid tier" minions in early encounters. In general, atleast 1 combat encounter per session will have 1-2 casters. Each of which will have 1 area/control spell, a cantrip, and 1-2 uses of a utility/support spell. It helps spice up combat without overwhelming players.
Depending on how things have been going, the goblin shaman may have just found a magic stick it can somewhat use... or it could be a witch's aprentice who's been cursed. The former may run in and accidently misfire their fireball at their feet, still catching a couple members of the party before "defusing" itself. The latter may cloak the field in fog to enhance a planed ambush with a vortex warp.
This is ofc just my experience, and an awfully long rant certainly not inspired by the use of any substances. All to say that in a campaign with the encounters I described, this subclass would easily be an S. Which is why personally I'd put it at B, however I can understand why other's may see differently.
Cleric Eldritch Domain is best Eldritch Blast class/subclass. It makes Eldritch Blast a Cleric Cantrip so it get's empowered and if you have some Charisma adding Agonizing Blasts through Eldritch Adept feat or some level dips into the Warlock is so nice. 1D10+Wis+Cha per blast.
The Flying PC Arms Lol. I once had aarakocra Barbarian/Paladin backed up by a Sorlock and a Valor Bard. Every Combat Encounter was: 1st round Buff the bird, 2nd round deliver the nuke. They had an answer to every combat I could put together it was wild.
I am confused. The B Rank is for situational subclasses. They literally described the Inquisition Domain in a way that seemed to be exact B Rank because in a campaign against a lot of magic users it would be great! A lot of creatures use magic. Undead, Most Fey, Daemons, Devils...
So I really feel confused.
I realize my comments seem negative...
So I was running a Grim-hollow-esque campaign, but on the Sword Coast. I didn't have a blood druid in the campaign, however I DID have an enemy druid that they had to fight, who functioned as a boss before a puzzle encounter. He was scaled to the party, so I gave him the abilities of an 8th level Blood druid. Between him and his giant direwolf companions (who were corrupted with the dark magic present in this campaign, so everything had a touch of chaos to it), he put up a damn good challenge to the party. There isn't anything in your subclass I would be concerned with or feel I couldn't still challenge as DM, and it was fun to run an NPC based on this subclass. I absolutely want to play one at a table!
I know Kelly didn't have any bad intentions, but 'Cool' is not at all the reaction any half way decent person should have to the Malleus Maleficarum. Seperatly, I get the marital weapons, I don't particularly see why a witch hunter type cleric would be leaning into heavy armour particularly, though I do agree that Counterspell in place of Remove Curse seems like an utter no brainer. I am also a little leery on the Eldrich Cleric. While the randomness mitigates, as does the less than stellar spell list, the power of most of the effects, without concentration OR saves each round to end the effect, does open the door to some really powerful control that is all but unmatched. One thing re the previous Grimh0llow class vid, the limit on 'twinning' necromancy spells seems overly restrictive when keeping the free 'twinning' of enchantment that enchantment wizards get. The range of possibilities (Hold and Dominate spells, Suggestion, Ego Whip, Feeblemind) enchantment has dwarfs necromancy. So you can double cast Finger of Death, fine, that's strong, but, it's far from close to being at the 'powwwer' end of subclass abilities.
For the 'not knowing what spell an NPC is casting'. 5e seems specificly set up so that a DM 'should' not be telling you that information. If you have the ability to do something in reaction to a spell being cast, eg Counterspell, from the way it is layed out in the text, your doing that blind. This is an spect of 3e that I thought was very good, being able to tell (with an appropriate skill check) what someone was casting (which was a key aspect of much of the counterspelling mechanics there). 5e seems specificly set up so that even an expert caster doesn't know what another caster is doing until the spell has been cast (which is deeply dumb, but also in line with the streamlined and simplistic nature of 5e mechanics). So with all of that said, there is zero reason why the anti mage cleric would know to use their ability on a given spell casting cos it's a big boom of a spell or just a cantrip.
Hello Dungeon Dudes! I DM'd for a campaign taking place in Etharis (the Grim Hollow world) and I had a Circle of Mutation Druid at the table. The player leaned into charisma and basically played the class like a movie Horror monster. Describing in gruesome detail the horrifying creatures he mutated into and ambushing enemies, scaring the crap out of em. It was a really cool concept for a character and all of us at the table had a blast with it! I think in terms of power it feels equivalent (if not a bit stronger) then Moon Druid at early levels. The lack of elemental wild shape does kinda hurt the late game and I'm not sure it QUITE keeps up with Moon Druid in the late game.
That being said, the flavor is great and I never really liked the flavor of Moon druids turning into Elementals. I get the concept, but the Circle of Mutation feels more appropriately primal, and horrifying.
The Mutations Circle is OP cause you're taking the most powerful subclass and adding on it (as you said). At least it should use the normal WildShape table, or mutating breaks your concentration (or provoke conc save).
C to B is where classes should be landing. Player classes/subclasses should be something a DM can counter & play around. They shouldn't just be good overall without weaknesses (especially without exploitable weaknesses).
@DungeonDudes I get what you were trying to say when talking about the druid (the anachronism of it all). My take is that D&D combines what games like World of Warcraft separates: the druid and the shaman. Two different things, but for some reason D&D kinda has these two ideas smashed together. The druid has always been more about nature and shaman typically more associated with totems, blood rituals, and the elements themselves (which depending on the mythology you're looking at, blood is an element).
Just had a thought - if a Circle of Mutation Druid wildshaped into some kind of lizard, made it large, gave it flying and poison - you could effectively have a Druid who can wildshape into a Wyvern. Thats nuts I love it.
Circle of blood makes me think of a potentially fun idea for something I might homebrew. A blight themed druid, it's an interesting perversion of the stereotypical druid tropes. I already have some fun ideas like adding a fluff feature at each level to show the idea of being corrupted by the magic.
The actual features I have in mind come down to the idea of the blood boon as said here but since I don't want to base it off sangromancy I'd go with:
-you gain extra hit dice when creatures within 30ft die you gain a hit dice (not from plants or constructs) excess hitdice can exceed your current max hit dice by an amount equal to half your druid level.
-you can upcast spells by spending hit dice equal to the level of the spell.
-you can choose a plant creature with a stat block and spend a number of hitdice equal to that creature's cr (minimum of one)
I'm not sure what else to add, I like the idea of having you spawn a twig blight when you longest, it would serve your orders, share your combat turn, and I may make it so this comes early to mid with you getting the ability to summon up to x cr worth of blights and or spend hit-dice on a rest to create additional blights.
It's rough, and not looked at too thoroughly through a balance perspective. I'm working on ideas, what I want it to do, and then from there I'm planning on buffing and nerfing it as needed.
Inspired here on the Eldritch Cleric (my player feels a pressure to ignore buff spells as they don't synergize with Eldritch Contagion):
So now building an Eldritch Blessing rollable table with beneficial effects.
Hey dungeon dudes, when you mentioned you're "locked" into choosing spells, for the domains, in the cleric you felt you would want some from different sources. Would it be worth adding the caveat to the text, like it is done with abberant mind sorceror, that you can replace any of these spells with any that fall into, for example, abjuration or evocation. That way you have your list and use the SRD like you needed, but gives players freedom to mix and match what they wanted to play what you envisioned further.
Great subclasses though 😊
I understand that a precedent has been set for it, I understand that it makes sense because they're a more martially inclined cleric, but I **hate** clerics getting heavy armor.
Paladin should be your Divine heavy armor wearer. Not cleric. Fighter and paladin are the heavy armor classes, yet you don't get heavy armor from multiclassing into them after 1st level. But 1 level of cleric can give you heavy armor? I don't like it
Edit to add: like I said, I understand it. I can't really fault the creators for doing it. But I don't like it.