I will say this: a Thief with expertise in arcana can use any spell scroll in the game without a chance of the scroll backfiring, even if you dumped intelligence using standard array or point buy. If you have any spellcaster in the party, they can make scrolls for a Thief to use and use reliably. A Thief with enough scrolls is probably one of the best spellcasters in the game. While that may be a drain on your gold, most official campaigns give so much gold anyways that some parties just get too much to spend, and always being able to make use of the gold you get is really nice. It's like the subclass is *encouraging* you to steal from others so you can make more scrolls, and I really like that.
You can also make your own scrolls as a thief if you multiclass 1 level in wizard. True strike as a bonus action, leaving your action open to ready an off turn attack to get sneak attack a second time, is really strong.
11:43 comparing mage hand legerdemain to fast hands is wild and kind of speaks to how underappreciated it was later in the video (especially as the dudes said you could use acid vials because no within the new rules you actually can't, it replaces your attacks), because it isn't just bonus action sleight of hand. Even apart from the use magic object action (which the dudes didn't know at the time, but magic objects in dmg are going to have sheets with recommended number of magic items in the dmg via a new video and you can even craft stuff like wand of magic missiles, plus spell scrolls are now basic adventuring gear available in villages), which puts it leagues above mage hand legerdemain, the utilize action can: 1. Don a shield (in an ambush most martials actually can't draw the shield like you can draw a weapon now, but a thief can without affecting their action economy if they pick up shield proficiency) 2. Combat utility via: ball bearings, caltrops, chains, manacles, hunting traps, ropes etc. All of these have rules in the PHB and offer moderately useful AOE battlefield control (via caltrops, ball bearings) to directly destroying enemy action economy if you have someone who's grappling in your party via ropes, manacles, or chains. 3. Bunch of tool use, like: identifying substances (alchemist supplies), detecting poison (poisoner kit), giving advantage to acrobatics checks (cobbler tools), pry open doors (Smith tools), identify plants (herbalist kit) and yes pick locks (thief tools). Now, most of these are niche, but you have the ability to build your thief accordingly and they offer partial utility akin to feats like observant or keen mind. 4. Movement utility as you can: Use the utilize action to use a grappling hook anchor yourself to walls via the climber's kit. Even if you ignore the use a magic object bit (and you really, really, shouldn't) and dock points for an adversarial GM (and in that case casters also start to suck as an "adversarial GM" will just never give them casting components, and your martials will suck as they will never get good armor like full plate costs 1500 GP) all the above listed items *and* cantrip/level 1 spell scrolls are basic adventuring gear you can get in a village. The amount of utility here is legitimately so overwhelming that even based on basic adventuring gear table alone discounting that feature feels misinformed to me. Like, a thief's level 9 feature isn't stellar, but the arcane trickster's is even worse as their level 9 feature doesn't work for any spell except thunderclap and mind spike when they actually get this feature as everything else has a verbal component and that immediately ends their invisible condition. Even fireball doesn't work with this, and while hypnotic pattern does (and so does counterspell, arcane tricksters are actually incredible counterspellers(?)) that's level 13 and they're the only non verbal spells they have access to period. 4 spells that have saving throws and don't have verbal components. And by the time an arcane trickster's level 9 feature comes online, a thief will be reliably doing their own sneak attack+at least a level 1 spell/cantrip with their bonus action, without much bonus action jam *because* of their supreme sneak. Like don't get me wrong, arcane tricksters are really very good but a thief is also quite easily an A tier even in more mundane campaigns.
@@theformation3781came to say all of this but you already did. Only thing to add is that if you have arcana proficiency or calligrapher's tools proficiency and the magic initiate feat you can craft your own cantrip spell scrolls and 1 first level spell scroll. So even if the DM is awful and doesn't want to sell them to you it's really not hard at all to get some basic stuff to reliably double sneak attack or battlefield control with sleep.
So it’s not often that I disagree with the Dudes, but I think you’re massively underestimating the power and versatility of the Thief Rogue being able to use their bonus action on Equipment. Chains especially, let you restrain a grappled enemy as a bonus action, with a DC 17 check at Disadvantage to escape. That’s strong enough to keep monsters locked down for a few turns and spellcasters can no longer cast spells. That’s a BIG deal. And the only setup is having someone with the grappler feat which is now an S tier playstyle for martials. Or could throw Caltrops, or Ball Bearings, or a Grappling Hook to reposition, or a net, or use alchemy supplies to set something on fire. Seriously look at the new equipment list and so many have unique and interesting Utilise actions that really allow the Thief to be a Jack of All Trades which options to suit just about any situation.
Not just that, they can use the magic action as a ba. They can cast from wands and staffs, even spell scrolls as a ba. At lvl 18 with a dip into a mage class they can cast 4 spells in one round
Not to mention they are just ignoring the magic action which I guess would be taking in multiclassing... but still its so good, I have a warlock/thief rogue that is writing cantrip scrolls to eldritch blast with both action and bonus action
Bonus action utilize is good now because Rope, Manacles, and other similar items have actually RAW usable restrain effects (*relying on ability checks!!*) AND Oil has fire damage synergy that the party can combo with. Lots of options! A tier for me.
Level 8 thief 3 / wizard or sorcerer 5 could simply scribe their own fireball scrolls and then cast a fireball as an action and use the scroll as a bonus action.
@@TheGrandWaz00 just go wizard 1 and craft scrolls of true strike, that way you can ready another true strike with your action and get 2 sneak attacks in a turn for only 15 gold and 8 hrs of crafting.
When analysing the thief you should have remembered the reworked adventuring gear list in the new PHB book, they were improved a lot and now have their capacities explained in more objective rules. All adventuring gear that requires one Utilize action can be used by a lvl 3 thief with a bonus action instead and their effects are now very objective and less dependent of GM fiat, is not possible to analyse the thief subclass without thinking about the adventuring gear too.
My favourite non magic use of the thiefs fast hands so far, is to use a net with your action, which then allows you to use manacles with your bonus action (or rope or chain, but I think manacles are best). Works doubley well because they're all skill checks that you can boost with your expertise. Not damage, but I love the idea of being the bounty hunter character. Good for shutting down somatics on Spellcasters maybe too?
I like the Thief Rogue because you can be creative in how you use all sorts of items with Fast Hands. You have to beg your DM for magic items with charges, though.
It’s worth looking in the adventuring equipment chapter for all the things you can do with them. Caltrops and ropes and flasks of oil are all pretty mechanically powerful now, and the thief is the best subclass to make the most of them
@@pederw4900 Healer's Kit is a good one The one thing that makes Caltrops a bit better is with Cunning Strike disengage there are more chances to Caltrop AND Disengage same turn which is much easier than 2014.
It will consistently work every combat, but at the cost of not getting autocrits the few times you get surprise. It's definitely a tradeoff, though because it doesn't have such a huge high anymore it's probably less memorable Overall though: there aren't any dead levels anymore!!! Thank God. Waiting all the way until level 9 for a second subclass ability only to get a really situational ribbon feature really stunk.
Yeah, the new assassin is SO MUCH better than the old one. I am not sure what kind of games these guys have played, because in the whole ten years of 5e I have not seen anyone ever get the surprise thing off, player characters in general are not good at surprising anything, and half the people don't even know how surprise actually works.
Yeah, the forever “noob favorite that they end up hating” assassin is way better now - the whole surprise thing was always a trap IMO unless you multiclassed gloomy in a ROTFM campaign or something specific like that. EDIT: To clarify, the Assassin was never good in the 2014 edition and it’s not good in the 2024 edition either. I’m just comparing the subclass to itself, not to the other subclasses…old and/or new. Facts.
For those interested in looking back. Thief and Assassin get the same rankings in 2014 (B, C) but the Trickster and Soulknife used to both be S-tier in 2014
What makes envom weapons good isnt nessecarily the chance to deal extra damage, but rather the bonus damage completely negates the downside of using the cunning strike. assuming the foe has about a 50% chance to fail, half the time you lose 1d6 damage and half the time you have a net gain of 1d6. Which averages out to the same DPR. This means you can attempt to apply the poisoned condition each turn wirh no cost to your average damage per round. It makes it essentially free.
The issue being that 50% is really generous, especially at 13th level. And then you consider you can count on your hands the number of monsters resistant to poison but immunity to poison is nearly a third of all entries.
No, it's the textbook example of B tier, because it's entirely dependent on how much magic items your DM is giving out, if they don't give much, the thief is really underwhelming, if they give a lot, it can be really strong.
@@Klaital1 really you only need 1 useful magic item that you can use. You don’t need a ton. If your DM really gives you 0 magic items to use with your thief then yeah I guess it’s situational. Even then, a simple multiclass 1 level dip into Sorc or Wizard can get you bonus action True Strike scrolls, which is extremely powerful and not DM dependent.
@@Klaital1 You could say the same thing about the Soulknife and Assassin being good at infiltration. The DM might not run a game where that happens, but most will. I don't think most DM's play such low level magic campaigns.
@@ultimafullmetal I don't really particularly much care about the infiltration part of the assassin, that is pretty much a ribbon feature. The reason I like assassin is because it's the rogue subclass that does by far the best damage, with every feature making you better in combat.
Certainly. But you can't quantify how useful that will be. Many DMs don't give out many magic items, or magic items with charges/consumables because they know their players will forget they exist. So is it great? Yeah, could be. Or it could be literally impossible to use
@@aidandunne5978 While thats true, every campaign Im in is chock full of them, and Ive found simply having a conversation with your DM about your expectations or just what level of magic content there is in the campaign is fantastic for making sure you get to use them. Besides BA to steal something from an enemy is always super valuable on its own, especially in combat. There's not a lot of ways to disarm enemies in dnd and Thief gives you a great way to do that
I'm not sure disarming someone mid combat would be a sleight of hand, that sounds more.like wrestling something out of someone's hands seems more akin to a grapple check. But beyond that, while I agree, mostly talking with your DM should smooth over any issues or worries with not getting the magic items. But that's why it's a B. A tier subclasses don't require you to have that conversation, they will be strong so long as the DM roughly follows the rules, regardless of loot. That doesn't mean it's not good, and that it can't be great. But if you are in a module that just doesn't have much inherent loot (looking at you Curse of Strahd), you may not get the chance to use your features much
@@aidandunne5978 I dont know, talking to them is the worst case scenario, and I feel like the benefits are really good, even compared to the other subclasses. I had a player choose thief rogue for a level 20 oneshot and they were invaluable. Didnt even have very many magic items, just a handful of spell scrolls the other players found and gave to them, it felt very powerful even compared to the spellcasters in the same party
@@DERyuga Right, but that's also at level 20. Many of us have not, nor ever will, see play above level 15. I agree, at high levels thief has some great features. But in the sweet spot of DnD where most people play (5-11) it's just alright unless you have a DM that hands out magic item consumables.
I think the new assassin level 3 is a *massive* buff. If your GM actually followed the 2014 surprise rules properly you practically never got it. Not to mention needing full-party cooperation to even use your class features, and the fact that it got turned off by normal things like, say, talking to foes prior to fighting.
I think if one was able to get surprise semi regularly, the older version of assassin was probably better. But I don't think I've ever played in a game where the party got a surprise around more than a couple of times. So this update is actually a huge improvement for my groups, where every combat has a first round
45:45 ironically, Kelly would warn players by explaining the *Assassin's* limitations the same way that I would explain the limitations of the *Psychic Blade* that isn't compatible with any other part of the game. It's *Soulknife* that stands out to me as the one that I would not pick. It's my only *C tier.*
100% agree, surprise RAW is virtually impossible with 2014 unless a campaign is built around it. Updated version is overall much, much better because you'll actually get to use it!
@@w4iph Not to mention that surprise was so insanely devastating in 2014 rules that if you got surprise you had pretty much already won the encounter anyways so the extra crit barely even mattered.
the fact they think that supreme sneak is like skulker means that they did in fact not read either feature since skulker lets you remain hidden when you miss with an attack while supreme sneak just strait up lets you remain hidden even if you hit with the attack
Supreme sneak doesn't allow you to remain hidden if you miss. You have to hit with sneak attack and spend one of those d6 to stay hidden when you hit, so the feet and feature actually work together really well. It also looks like, if a DM allows you to move from a hidden position and attack with advantage in melee by rushing it behind someone, you could potentially use supreme sneak to leap out of cover, make an attack, sneak attack and activate supreme sneak, and end your turn back in. Cover and remain hidden and invisible It seems like the rules on the invisible condition when you are hidden has some wiggle room for DM interpretation in the new addition
Thieves rouges can throw a net and chain/rope a target in the same turn, making the enemy use 2 or more turns to take the restraint condition. It can also throw the oil so him the other casters can use fire spells or cantrips to deal more damage or just throw caltrops to stop the enemy from moving. Thieves rouges will be really strong using these items to help that party, and if there are scrolls or magic items, they just become broken.
This will give players something tangible to spend their gold on too which is cool. All the new item actions become tech a thief can use in combat rather easily, which I think will be super fun.
It really makes me wish that Rogues had something like the PF2e Opportune Backstab rogue feat. Opportune Backstab [R] (Feat 8) *Trigger:* A creature within your melee reach is hit by a melee attack from one of your allies. *Effect:* When your enemy is hit by your ally, you capitalize upon the distraction. Make a Strike against the triggering creature.
What I like about rogues is that they have a much different playstyle than most other classes. They are not built for prolonged combat, but rather they are the sneak in, bypass all the guards and henchman, then pick off key targets when they are alone. If they are caught and get overwhelmed, they are to then disappear and escape until they can start a new round of combat. The problem is that playstyle doesn't really mesh too well with the rest of the party, especially martial characters like the paladin, barbarian, or fighter who usually prefer the prolonged fights. Although barbarians might be a bit better with stealth missions now using their rage stealth with advantage.
The one thing you guys missed on Soul Knife is that the psychic dice are not expended if a skill check is still failed,you don't get to keep spell slots when the spell doesn't work.
I think the Thief is the perfect example of B tier as "S tier in the right campaign" Because I would only ever consider playing it in a long dungeon crawl with tons of magic items, something like Dungeon of the Mad Mage. But in that sort of campaign where magic items are abundant and you've got wands and staves out the wazoo, a Thief with a 1 level dip in wizard could pull double duty in the party of being the trapmaker and the arcana person. And if you can make a sneak attack AND cast a spell from a wand or staff every turn, you're gonna outdamage most anybody.
The one thing they didn't mention about the Thief is that in the 2024 PHB you can now scribe scrolls with tools. Take magic initiate to get true strike. Then scribe hundreds of scrolls of true strike. What you can do is hold your action to cast a scroll of true strike on the next persons turn, then as a BA cast a scroll of true strike. Both attacks get your sneak attack damage and if you take sentinel you can make your reaction easier to use your sneak attack as well.
💯 this! This may be a potentially broken RAW busted move and might need construction later but you are totally correct. Colby from D4 has discussed this in a recent build!
Ready action already utilizes your reaction so you wouldn't be able to double up on that and sentinel. That said, sentinel could still be nice for rounds where you want to use your action for something else.
Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong, but how do you figure both attacks would get sneak attack damage? Sneak attack can be applied only once a turn. Or am I missing something?
@MrCyrus1677 correct. The bonus action scroll is on your turn and then the held action is on the next turn. So 2 separate turns so 2 separate sneak attacks
Gonna play devil's advocate for Thief. The new adventuring gear rules for rope, chain, nets, all those great tactical items, makes the battlefield controller Thief actually quite interesting. Especially once you get reliable talent 🤔
The assassin poison ability isnt a 1d6 trade for maybe 2d6 damage. It's 1d6 for the poisoned condition AND up to 20d6. It deals 2d6 each time they fail their save, and the poison lasts a minute, with a save at the end of their turn. Will it be amazing on something eith high con? No. But it will be fantastic on a caster who has to make a concentration check every turn when the damage ticks. Or against someone squishy, like an archer or an assassin type npc, giving them disadvantage on attack rolls.
The 20d6 is way to unrealistic. The reason for that is let's just ignore all your damage We are assuming that an enemy without legendary resistance is living 9 rounds of combat to be able do 20d6 poison damage. So, in reality in ideal condition would be up to 3 rounds for 8d6 damage most.
@@darklight9450 I understand it will never get to that in normal combat. It would, however, keep ticking on an assassin that flees, or even a spellcaster that teleports away. I think the couple d6s of damage are secondary to the poisoned condition and forcing concentration checks.
@@MarkG-s3e Never said it was bad more I was more trying to say 8d6 poison damage is more realistic. Since you can opportunity attack that creature and have sneak attack.
You're looking at it incorrectly. What makes it so good is that the extra damage negates the cost of using the cunning strike. Assuming the opponent has a 50% chance to fail the save, half the time you deal 1d6 extra damage and half the time you deal 1d6 less damage. Which means the average damage per round using poison strike is exactly the same as not using it. This means you can continually go for poison strike every round to debuff the enemy at no cost to your average damage. It's now a free feature :)
RAW and fully intended the thief would be able to use a magic item twice on their turn UNLESS the magic item itself disallowed it. The rule only prevents you from double casting with spell slots, not charges of a magic item. It’s why scrolls are so much more important now for wizards because they can cast fireball with a scroll and then teleport with misty step on the same turn
Assassin is being slept on a little bit. Yeah not having auto crit is a bummer, but the few times Ive played an assassin I got it twice in the whole campaign. This new feature at least guarantees something every combat. Adv to initiative is worth it alone. It also encourages you to STAY rogue. High level rogue adding their level to damage plus envenom weapons adds a lot over time. Take in mind that you can use True Strike on every rogue, there's even synergy to spec into charisma for being that infiltrator/disguise face for the party, so even the "ribbon" features can add a lot too by taking an origin feat in magic initative and choosing charisma as your casting ability. Being a one hit wonder is better than ever now!
I agree. I don't understand those that say that the original 2014 crit attack is better. That's nonsense. It's so hard to make work. Plus, there are options to build around in 2024. Your damage bonus can increase if you take the Poisoner feat at level 4 and apply poisons liberally. Depending on your chosen weapons, the skulker feat is great and sharpshooter for ranged. Depending on how your DM rules it, Dual Wielder + nick can add extra melee attacks and combine with Defensive Duelist. You've got options to work with.
Agreed, I think it’s at least a low b tier, cause in a low magic campaign they would do very well, and while yes there are ways to get advantage, the assassin allows you to get it automatically with no set up, you just need to go before the enemy. That to me is valuable, and allows for me to set up vex, or get into a good position for steady aim or to hide.
@@fortunatus1 I get surprise fairly often in my game, so it's not really that hard to make it work. It depends on your DM. My problem is that I have an assassin dip on my 2014 character, which is effectively worthless in the 2024 rules.
@@fortunatus1 I think they are saying a crit is just better than your level worth of damage. Doubling your damage is better than adding three damage. Yeah things around it have changed that makes it more likely to do something but taking away the crit makes the biggest feature of this class non existent.
@@extonjonas6820 Id love to take away that features mechanics to let me crit more often- thats not how the math works though. A crits damage is impressive on rogue but an extra per level damage every single combat is going to add up a lot over time. In the end its not a perfect workaround but it doesnt really make the assassin worse
Human Soulknife that picks a background with the Skilled origin feat, and uses their Human Versatile trait to take an additional Skilled origin feat. Just be proficient in all skills so you can always use Reliable Talent + Psi-Bolstered Knack.
But like why though. Like alert helps you and everyone out in combat for going first but if you don't value your turn order and rolling on it. Lucky gives you free advantage for your attacks without using or action or bonus or disadvantages of your enemy's attack. At most there are only 3 more skills that you want to learn as rogue.
All the DEX skills, all the CHA skills, all the Spot skills (Percept, Investigate, Insight), then three extra profs remain to either take 3 of 4 knowledge skills to also be smart guy, or the rest of the WIS skills to also be the outdoorsman. If both those roles are covered, three key tool proficiencies not covered by rogue + background (forgery kit, disguise kit, poisoners/herbalist kit) for advantage on those checks.
@@jsmith9677 I still hate the fact the rogue loses sneak attack even if they gain advantage on the turn. Like if you have disadvantage and can still attack with extra attack is still active.
Hearing you talk about the Thief has me thinking back to BG3 where *SO Many* of my characters take a 3 level Rogue Dip to get the extra Bonus Action every round...
The thief was really strong in BG3. Even if you take out the ability to attack with the bonus action that is in bg3, the ability to use an extra potion, grenade, scroll, throw a vial of _____ , is extremely useful. However it requires a DM to give out those items as swell as a player to utilize them.
On the topic of supreme sneak VS skulker, they seem to cover different situations. Skulker works to not reveal you on a miss, but supreme sneak works to keep you hidden after a hit! I agree with the rest of the reasoning but it has a bit more of a use than expected, mostly for ranged attacks
One of the things I like best about Psychic Blades is that they leave no visible injury: makes the Soulknife a better assassin than the Assassin. Sneak into the bedroom, coup de gras, "oh, they must have over-exerted themselves"
And can you imagine being remembered as the noble who died from over-exerting themselves in the bedroom?! Psychic embarrassment damage from beyond the grave
I think that the assassin’s advantage in first round will be useful more often than you are presenting it. It frees them to use their bonus action to hide after attacking.
I'd never dislike a Dungeon Dudes video, but this one was close lmao! I think yall are *massively* underrating both the Assassin and the Thief on almost every level.
I’ll give you the thief but the Assassin absolutely sucks. Compared to other rogue subclasses it’s absolute garbage. Thief as of now is good, but we don’t know what’s in the DMG so magic items might be changed.
I love you guys, but i absolutely disagree about the assassin. Features and attacks are reliable, has constant advantage, it's a skill monkey and at higher levels has the potential to do absurd damage. I'm doing the math for the dpr of every class on the new book myself and it's nothing to scoff at. Rogues and barbarian might not be the strongest classes but they are reliable and they don't have to burn through slots, plus they are easy to use. That said, casters are still by far the kings of the game
I agree fully, assassin might not be super flashy, but it gets the job done. Like at level 20, using light crossbow with true strike, assuming no magic items or other features that increase damage, you do (1d8+25+3d6+10d6) x2 for average of 150 damage in a single hit.
Show working please. Assassin damage per round vs Arcane Trickster casting True Strike at each tier of play, assuming 2+ rounds of combat (I think two is enough to prove the point, but more rounds favours the Trickster more).
Nah I disagree, dungeon dudes are somewhat right. Assassin should be able to one-shot one or two big enemies. It really gives an adrenaline rush to the players. I mean, so what if one big boss dies? I think the Dungeon Master should play around the Assassin character because it only does one big attack. Although, I don't think anything you said was wrong to counter argue against the changes.
Have no idea how you think the Assassin was nerfed? Great vid, but that was mind boggling to me. Surprise for the players happens like...a couple times a campaign. Maybe once a level if the entire party is dex/stealth focused? It was essentially a non feature in 99% of fights. Atleast now your guranteed to get it once a fight.
Worth noting with the Soul Knife that most class/subclass features that stated "(attack) is considered magical for the purposes of overcoming resistances" were replaced with changing the damage type to something other than bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, most commonly Force. Cody at D4 mentioned that it LOOKS like resistance to non-magical weapon attacks may be going away.
I'm running a (2014) campaign with a Soulknife Rogue/Divination Wizard and they are consistently the most powerful member of the party. In roleplay, exploration, and combat. It's such a flavorful subclass and is a hell of a lot of fun. Definitely the character that keeps me the most on my toes.
I actually played a level 16 Arcane Trickster in a one shot that one of my player in my campaign ran(he is also a DM). He wanted to test out some stuff so he had the 5 of us just make a level 16 class with the new rules to see how it feels. I went with the Max INT build with Truestrike. I gotta say, it was awesome! Felt really really good. Can also cast Haste on yourself. Next turn you can stealth Fireball and then use the hasted action to cast true strike and get a massive sneak attack in. Obviously that is a costly couple turns but in general just having truestrike feels great because you can afford to take spells that require high INT and not sacrifice your Rogue damage and abilities. Have DEX and CON as ability score 2 and 3.
A Wand of Magic Missile. Guaranteed damage every turn using your BA, averaging 10.5 damage per charge. Meanwhile the Assassin only gets its damage on one turn of combat and won’t even touch Magic Missile’s minimum damage until level 6. It’s only Uncommon rarity and you get 2-7 charges back each day. Receiving Magic Items is the norm. The 2024 PHB acknowledges that fact with the “Starting Equipment at Higher Levels” table. Sure the DM can always have something different in mind, but that is exception, not the rule.
43:40 I know you do these rankings without multiclassing, but Thief 3 + one or more caster dips seems really strong to me. Craft, buy, or find scrolls and magic items and you have a Magic action every round of combat in addition to your normal action.
You have a spellcaster in your party. They have arcana proficiency. They can now make spell scrolls for all of their spells. Feed them cash and problem solved.
As someone who has played a thief rogue with the home ruled ability to use magic devices with fast hands, which you seemed to gloss over, I can say it really does expand the glass and feel broken at times. Even an uncommon decanter of endless water can change combat. Though I will say this was before steady aim so advantage/sneak attack wasn't always guaranteed.
One thing that has worked really well for me as a soul knife rogue to balance the lack of power of the blades: since my character doesnt carry any other weapons, my DM allows me to correlate the Soul knives to the same die size as my psionic dice.
I know we dont do any multiclassing in this, but 1 lvl dip in the wizard completely changes how much magic you can use. You can then craft any scroll on the wizard spell list. (I believe i could be wrong) , and clerics can give you scrolls from them and easily use theirs as well. The thief is the batman argument. With preparation, they can be absolutely amazing.
I’m not playing a rogue for the combat. I do not care that I’m not getting massive amounts of dmg, I’m already not getting mass dmg in 2014 rules. I play a rogue for the out of combat fun
I'm not a fan of the arcane trickster personally. The arcane trickster was my first long-term character. He died a few months in and I told the DM when the players try to resurrect me, don't let him come back. I then rolled up a lore bard with prof or expertise in stealth, slight of hand, thieves tools, persuasion, deception, and perception. That character did every single thing I wanted my arcane trickster to do and so so much more (except my mage hand wasn't invisible).
@@KnicKnac definitely more than that. Gained way more spell slots, way more spells, much higher level spells, and magical secrets. Going from int to cha was just a bonus.
Here's what I would have done with the Assassin's level 3 feature. Instead of the little extra damage, you would instead Crit on a 18-20 anytime you attack while your hidden from the target of the attack. More work but you could use it anytime if you play into the Assassin play style. I'd also add proficiency or expertise with stealth checks. I think the 2024 upgrades to the level 9 and 13 features are good, but they come so late that you really need the level 3 feature to be better.
As always, loved it!! Thanks for this video 🎉. Did you plan to post the warlock’s one soon?Got a campaign on its way and i'm prepping for it, would love to hear your views ❤
The UA Armorer Artificer multiclass with thief sounds very fun, ability to use magic items as a bonus action (which is usually unused for Armorer) with the ability to chose magic items to replicate. Just really difficult to balance the levels out since the rogue side is providing the bulk of damage but the good stuff is level 10+ for UA artificer.
I think the Assassin is going to be great for multiclassing. War Cleric / Assassin for example is going to be a tier 2/3/4 burst damage god. Just need to figure out how to pop off the upgraded sneak attack twice on turn 1. I think the rogue in general is gonna be better than people think. At the right table at least.
@@nathans9764 right, that’s what I was getting at. You’ve gotta multi-class with something like the war cleric that lets you get two sneak attacks on round 1. Or have a teammate that will help you proc it twice. It can be a beast as a multiclass even if it’s just okay solo.
I play a swashbuckling rogue in our campaign. We are currently level 5. Our DM wanted us to switch over to 2024 PH so I could switch to one of the new versions. How does swashbuckler stand up with the nick and vex options added to it compared to Soulknife or new Trickster?
Arcane Tricksters have the most potential to become S Tier in the future as more publications come out with more options for spells. Thieves can also make that climb, but that depends on the DM's generosity and how the crafting rules work in the new DMG.
Thief only needs one good magic item (or a 1-level dip into caster) to shine, but Arcane Trickster can never get out of being a one-third caster who is completely pointless if there's a real arcane caster in the party.
@@bunbunkitten I strongly disagree with this. A rogue with easy access to Shield, True Strike, the blade cantrips, Shadow Blade, Invisibility, Counterspell/Dispel Magic, Silvery Barbs, and many other powerful spells are really good no matter how many spellcasters you have in the party. While you probably won't need to bring spells like Fireball, you can still bring tons of other spells to contribute without a full-caster stealing the show.
I've been playing a soul knife for 6 levels now and I can confirm it fucking rules! The telepathy and psi bolstered knack has saved out party a bunch of times and the attack bonus action is great for some solid extra damage. The fact that your soul knives get vex is incredible as well since it pretty much guarantees sneak attack on your next turn. Would absolutely recommend anyone to try it for themselves, its been so much fun!
From looking through the DMG, I found these examples of magic items that a thief could use as a bonus action with the level 3 feature that all have a decent number of uses and would be completely transformative to the character: Uncommon: gem of brightness, pipes of haunting, wand of magic missiles Rare: mace of terror, necklace of fireballs, ring of spell storing, tentacle rod, wand of fear, Very rare: helm of brilliance, ring of shooting stars, Legendary: ring of invisibility
The other great thing about Psi-Bolstered Knack is if you still fail the check, the die isn't expended. And Psychic Whispers is free once per long rest.
I’m curious how the Dungeons Dudes read the Fast Hands feature. I read it as allowing the Magic Action when using items, which Magic items state when that is the way to use them, but does not allow you to cast a spell using a magic item. Since casting a spell is a different use of the magic action. This would rule out spell scroll usage based on the current text on the spell scroll section under adventuring gear. But, I seem to read that the wider accepted reading is that you can use scrolls with fast hands. Thoughts?
In what way could you "use" a scroll and not cast the spell? If the magic item casts a spell, taking the magic item to "use" the item casts the spell. Using a magic action to cast a spell is about casting it with the spellcasting feature and not items.
I am creating a Soulknife, im glad you touched on the modifier for bonus attack. No one every mentions that. It adds up! Im really disappointed fighter initiate didnt get ported into 2024 PHB, but the thrown weapon fighting style to get a +2 to dmg essentially turning blades hit die to a d10 and d8, but even better because flat damage. If I were the DM id recommend giving a soul knife a magical item thats not a weapon. think like a cloak that gives a +1 bonus to attack and damage to psychic attacks. you could make something that gives them a boost as they fall off. But honestly they have such good utility that I dont mind they are weaker in the damage department. With vex, you will be hitting a lot with advantage (carries over to next turn AND can be used to set up opportunity attacks WITH sneak attack since adv is possible/likely) so honestly I dont even think that they suffer too much in damage. Soulknife is my FAVORITE subclass, and one of if not my favorite subclass among all classes. Love you guys!
It is cool but I am really sad that this doesn't work with new Dual wielder, it just seems strange to me. I would probably let it work as dm, doesn't seem broken and there's 0 reason for non magical modest weapons not to be light
@@DandDgamertrue, but that means they can benefit from things that say, can’t have anything held in hands. There’s still some kinks to work out. I’m gonna ask my DM if I can flavor my psychic blades to be a different shaped weapon. Like melee wolverine claws, or a martial weapon. And ranged attack can be like kunai, even maybe a little secret pop up gun like at the end of Django. Just whatever badass flavor I can add since it doesn’t specify what the weapons look like or if anyone can even see them. I’d enjoy making a bunch of different ideas
Why not use the dueling fighting style instead? It adds +2 to Damage rolls no matter what kind of attack you’re making, Ranged or Melee. Unless you’re holding a physical weapon in your other hand you’ll always meet the requirement.
@@James-kv3ll because it’s very unclear in RAW about Soulknife. Dueling says you have to have a melee weapon in one hand and no weapons in the other. It’s very gray since Soulknife rogues don’t have anything in their hand until they take the attack action. Dueling would be better, but it’s so much uncertainty with rules. What if you made a ranged attack, it’s a melee weapon but thrown, but that’s what I consider a bad faith ruling since it’s exploiting. Dueling is supposed to be the single rapier swashbuckler style. It’s just too much uncertainty with rule interaction that I feel a majority of DMs wouldn’t allow it.
I wish the soul-knife's on-hand psi blade scaled with the psychic energy dice - this would make up mostly for a lack of magic items. As a DM, I could introduce a magic tattoo (requires attunement) that would do this and maybe give them the option to do force damage in lieu of a magic weapon. This would scale with the character, off-setting the potential for martial types to upgrade their weapons over their career.
I think you're absolutely right that the Assassin needed more to actually compete with the other subclasses, and to have an ability which came into play more often. I think that the Assassin should enhance a base rogue class ability, the way that thief enhances Cunning Action. For the Assassin, I would homebrew that once per turn when they use Cunning Strikes, they still apply all of the normal sneak attack damage, if they want to (maybe with an exception for the Knock Out, which costs 6d6). That's not a ton of extra damage, mostly 1d6, but it's a cool way to show that the assassin is just a bit more lethal (or mean) than other rogues. Also, it can come up most turns in combat, which makes it seem analagous to weapon masteries. I would suggest limiting it to once per turn so that when rogues get to apply 2 Cunning Strikes there is still some cost, but still, that can be a very nice upgrade without breaking anything. I'd make this a level 9 feature and move the 9th level Steady Aim enhancement down to 3rd level. I think that version of the Assassin is what I'll use at my table and it makes it seem like a good, non-magical competitor to the Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife.
Nick weapon mastery only requires that the extra attack use a weapon with the “Light Property” to make the extra attack part of the action instead of the bonus action. Any single handed Vex weapons will give advantage to the extra attack for sneak attack. Rapiers & daggers are still a rogues best friend.
A soulknife x/feywander 5 is an amazing multiclass. You get hunters mark for your 2 attacks, and bonus action attack, and with vex youll be getting advantage as long as you hit for sneak attak. You get a fighting style, and personally I'd take thrown weapon fighting for that +2 on each attack, you get hunters mark which is great for damage. And an extra d4 each round, which isnt as great as hunter but that charisma buff. Adding your wisdom to all charisma checks is just a fun way to be the rougue that can deal damage, can sneak, has a high wisdom and because of that high wisdom you can the face of the party. At 10 level if you are 7 soulknife 3 feywander and lets say you took skilled as a starting feat you have at least 10 proficiencies skills (more if you race adds any), 5 expertise (4 from rogue 1 from ranger) a fighting style, charisma is just as good or better than wisdom for skill checks, if you hit every turn you get 4d6 for sneak attack, 2d6 for hunters mark on both attacks, 2*dex +4 for thrown weapon fighting and a d4 for being a feywanderer. And if you somehow pass an ability check you are profeciant in, boom soul die to bump it!
So part of me feels like what the damage boost for assassin is trying to incentivize is the use of the cunning strikes because if you look up the cunning strikes you see that the levels you gain them at,5 and more at 14, plus most of the d6 cost, adds up to a semi equal distribution. So for example, at level 5 you can trip an enemy or poison them for 1d6, well with the assassin ability if you target the most problematic enemy you can sacrifice potential 6 damage for an extra effect to tip the rest of the combat in your parties favor and because you are level 5 you do 5 damage anyway so that d6 cost is not as pricey for you. So I feel like the assassin is trying to deliver conditions at the start of combat instead of damage
Currently playing a soul knife rogue right now in campaign (10 rogue 1 hex blade special homebrew stuff) its already so busted now this is even crazier. Right now the dice are only D8s and can only be used on proficient skills. Being able to on all skills is so crazy.
An observation of the Assassin level 3 damage - a level 5, they would probably be dealing 10 damage every 2 encounters, in contrast if a Battle Master Fighter is using a Maneuver that lets you add a Superiority die to damage after landing a hit, and getting a Short/Long rest every 2 encounters they should be able to get 18 damage every 2 encounters plus the other effects of the selected maneuver. It definitely feels like the level 3 Assassin damage could safely be bumped to 2 times your Rogue level.
Something to add to the Assassin: It used to be the most "out of combat" roleplay focused Rogue. If you can avoid a combat by infiltration and assassination, the second and later rounds of combat are not going to matter. Very very campaign dependant.
Thief imo becomes mandatory for any caster that wants to replace losing Action Surge to double-cast more than cantrips. Since scrolls scale with your caster mod and attack bonus, they hit as hard as your spell slots.
Honestly can't believe you gave thief B even though they get nothing useful until 13th level and gave the assassin C for only gave skills that are universally useful.
@@zackcrow1776 They completely breeze through it, but they do in fact get to use magic items and the HIGHLY buffed mundane equipment as a bonus action from level 3. That alone makes them great. With a 1 level dip into a caster they get scrolls as a bonus action from level 4. That is also amazing.
Fast hands is very good, you just need to be aware of the items you can use. Magic items as a bonus action is pretty great though that depends on what your DM gives out. You can throw ball bearings or caltrops as a bonus action so you can help with area denial. One of the greatest uses for a common item, you can use a rope to restrain someone who is grappled as a bonus action! Meaning you can throw a net as an action and restrain in the same turn, or maybe a team member grappled a target and you can use it as a bonus action then attack. It gets absolutely insane if you dip 1 level in wizard, because now you can use spell scrolls as a bonus action which is incredible for damage or control or whatever you need. (You also get this at level 13 ofc, but getting this as early as level 4 is amazing.)
I built a Loki character that's 5 levels of Thaumaturg Trickery Domain and 3 levels of Soul Knife and holy crap. Expertise, guidance, enhance ability, and psi-bolstered knack plus a Luckstone and Magic Initiate Wizard...
Random thing too funny to just not comment it: an election commercial popped up for me *just* at the right time. Kelly: so here’s what I got to say about the assassin- Commercial: Americans abroad have a right to vote from *anywhere*!
I feel like assassin deseved a b- atleast because in the right setting most of its features are pretty good. An example would be a low magic setting with a down time feature that takes in a city you are trying to infiltrate so youll mostly be fighting humanoids. It could play like youre in a guild or rebel group and you get missions that you get downtime to prepare for. Maybe that makes it a little niche, but I think there are a lot of ways the DM and the player can work together to make the subclass excel.
Thief massively underestimated here, largely because the magic item rules have changed and this is not being taken into consideration. A Thief can use a True Strike casting magic item (or scroll) as a Bonus action to get an off-turn Sneak Attack via Ready on their Action. Even if not using that extraordinarily powerful way to use the feature, most any magic item with a combat spell or ability is great to get as a Bonus action. Everyone can craft now with crafting rules, if they choose to do so, simply from a Background - there is some unreliability in getting the materials for any _one_ magic item (not DM fiat, but a roll), but note that the materials are per magic item so as long as you have even just a few other options that could be useful you WILL find materials for at least one of them. Even then, technically the rule states _you_ were unable to find the materials, so theorectically _someone else_ could - but I'll presume most DMs will say the roll is a blanket roll for that settlement for that magic item. Then there are Hirelings which are super cheap to craft for you - DM fiat if they exist, but would be super odd to literally have none in a town or city (I mean, that is the whole point of civilisation!). Then there are Bastions which do not require a roll OR DM fiat (albeit, you wont get bastion crafting until level 9). Also, the magic item loot rules and tracker are VERY generous. The 2014 days of saying _maybe_ you will get a useful magic item are long gone. Another note, the level 9 feature is far better than Skulker. Skulker lets you remain hidden if you _miss_ - it does nothing if you hit. Given you have Advantage, the chance of missing is not high. Supreme Sneak allows the Thief to remain hidden even if they _hit_ - which they probably will (and works if they miss too). This can allow the Thief to basically become untargettable as long as there is some two-thirds-decent cover nearby (and yeah, ranged is obviously the better option anyway given how fragile Rogues are and how Steady Aim/Hide works). Supreme Sneak allows for the Bonus action to be used while maintaining all the goodness of Hide - like, using that Bonus action for casting True Strike via a scroll or magic item. Cantrip scrolls are basically once per day per person crafts, plus any Hirelings, plus any that can be bought in shops (cantrips are listed in the general purchase section, so should be quite readily available). Cantrip scrolls are super cheap to make, and barely anything to buy. Then you scrolls coming from loot - potentially very poweful scrolls. Sure, maybe you don't use scrolls literally everyone round of combat (unless you can bulk buy some from city or Wizard's tower), but to say the whole thing is DM fiat? This would require a DM shutting down every possible way of getting magic items including scrolls, from crafting, to bastions, to loot. At this point you might as well say that casters are D rank, then when asked why you say because the whole world could be in an Anti-Magic Zone. To top it off, the level 17 feature is pretty amazing. This subclass is a reliable A unless the DM is really out to shut it down, with the possibility of being S at times with high level scrolls.
With the assassin, if they made their first strike instead of bonus damage based on level, make so you don't have to roll your sneak attack damage. It just procs a full potency. That would at least make the damage scale slightly better and somewhat still feel like a crit on the first turn. And if you do crit with that attack. Holy cow.
I honestly think that if the damage for the assassin was double your level on first attack and if they changed out the kit proficiency for something like silent movement where you could be detected by blindsight or tremorsense that it would be at least an A
In B4 they review Thief without mentioning a caster dip to bonus action Scrollcast at L4. (I know the video isn't about multiclassing but even so) EDIT: Lol they didn't even put Magic Item fast hand use on the summary card so yes, point feels pretty missed.
Not to mention even your playing a pure thief. AT level 13 with one feat, in dnd 2024 you can make so you can use 9th scroll always lets you pass with +2 in intelligence. Since the dc for scroll not going away is an arcana check with dc of 10+spell level. So, all you have to is get the skill expert feat at level 12 select arcana get Proficiency in it. Reliable talents give you 10+12=22 on the arcana check. 22>19.
@@darklight9450 No, you've misunderstood. If the roll fails you don't cast the spell and the scroll disintegrates. If you pass the roll, you cast the spell. Now look up what happens when you cast a spell from a spell scroll. When you have cast it, it disintegrates. The roll is purely about whether you are able to cast the spell. That's why there is no roll for cantrip and L1. Of course they cannot infinitely cast from any scroll. That would be broken and make a mockery of caster classes (especially since it would imply you could cast twice a turn).
Every Thief should come with a magic item that let's you cast a couple of spells similiar to the magical Bard lutes etc. That fits great with the premise that you stole that precious artifact from somewhere.Then you basically get a cool spell every turn as your bonus action while still dealing your sneak attack with your main action and you are awesome at combat versatility. If you don't have such an item or a wand etc you basically don't have a subclass.
The Thief even at lvl 3 can use cantrip and lvl 1 scrolls, and 2024 RAW cantrip scrolls scale as normal cantrips, so you could take Eldritch blast scrolls with Hex and be like a Sorlock
The thief is so good and interesting. Yes, you're going to be a little loot goblin... but who expects a rogue not to be a loot goblin? I think this subclass will function just fine at most tables and most DMs are going to be excited to pick out neat items for their thief.
I will say this: a Thief with expertise in arcana can use any spell scroll in the game without a chance of the scroll backfiring, even if you dumped intelligence using standard array or point buy. If you have any spellcaster in the party, they can make scrolls for a Thief to use and use reliably. A Thief with enough scrolls is probably one of the best spellcasters in the game. While that may be a drain on your gold, most official campaigns give so much gold anyways that some parties just get too much to spend, and always being able to make use of the gold you get is really nice. It's like the subclass is *encouraging* you to steal from others so you can make more scrolls, and I really like that.
You can also make your own scrolls as a thief if you multiclass 1 level in wizard. True strike as a bonus action, leaving your action open to ready an off turn attack to get sneak attack a second time, is really strong.
@@evansmith2832 You can also then use Arcane Grimoire that boost your spell DC and other wizard specific items :D
11:43 comparing mage hand legerdemain to fast hands is wild and kind of speaks to how underappreciated it was later in the video (especially as the dudes said you could use acid vials because no within the new rules you actually can't, it replaces your attacks), because it isn't just bonus action sleight of hand. Even apart from the use magic object action (which the dudes didn't know at the time, but magic objects in dmg are going to have sheets with recommended number of magic items in the dmg via a new video and you can even craft stuff like wand of magic missiles, plus spell scrolls are now basic adventuring gear available in villages), which puts it leagues above mage hand legerdemain, the utilize action can:
1. Don a shield (in an ambush most martials actually can't draw the shield like you can draw a weapon now, but a thief can without affecting their action economy if they pick up shield proficiency)
2. Combat utility via:
ball bearings,
caltrops,
chains,
manacles,
hunting traps,
ropes
etc. All of these have rules in the PHB and offer moderately useful AOE battlefield control (via caltrops, ball bearings) to directly destroying enemy action economy if you have someone who's grappling in your party via ropes, manacles, or chains.
3. Bunch of tool use, like:
identifying substances (alchemist supplies),
detecting poison (poisoner kit),
giving advantage to acrobatics checks (cobbler tools),
pry open doors (Smith tools),
identify plants (herbalist kit)
and yes pick locks (thief tools).
Now, most of these are niche, but you have the ability to build your thief accordingly and they offer partial utility akin to feats like observant or keen mind.
4. Movement utility as you can:
Use the utilize action to use a grappling hook
anchor yourself to walls via the climber's kit.
Even if you ignore the use a magic object bit (and you really, really, shouldn't) and dock points for an adversarial GM (and in that case casters also start to suck as an "adversarial GM" will just never give them casting components, and your martials will suck as they will never get good armor like full plate costs 1500 GP) all the above listed items *and* cantrip/level 1 spell scrolls are basic adventuring gear you can get in a village. The amount of utility here is legitimately so overwhelming that even based on basic adventuring gear table alone discounting that feature feels misinformed to me. Like, a thief's level 9 feature isn't stellar, but the arcane trickster's is even worse as their level 9 feature doesn't work for any spell except thunderclap and mind spike when they actually get this feature as everything else has a verbal component and that immediately ends their invisible condition. Even fireball doesn't work with this, and while hypnotic pattern does (and so does counterspell, arcane tricksters are actually incredible counterspellers(?)) that's level 13 and they're the only non verbal spells they have access to period. 4 spells that have saving throws and don't have verbal components. And by the time an arcane trickster's level 9 feature comes online, a thief will be reliably doing their own sneak attack+at least a level 1 spell/cantrip with their bonus action, without much bonus action jam *because* of their supreme sneak. Like don't get me wrong, arcane tricksters are really very good but a thief is also quite easily an A tier even in more mundane campaigns.
I Just figured that a hat of wizardry is a superb magic item for this build.
@@theformation3781came to say all of this but you already did. Only thing to add is that if you have arcana proficiency or calligrapher's tools proficiency and the magic initiate feat you can craft your own cantrip spell scrolls and 1 first level spell scroll. So even if the DM is awful and doesn't want to sell them to you it's really not hard at all to get some basic stuff to reliably double sneak attack or battlefield control with sleep.
So it’s not often that I disagree with the Dudes, but I think you’re massively underestimating the power and versatility of the Thief Rogue being able to use their bonus action on Equipment. Chains especially, let you restrain a grappled enemy as a bonus action, with a DC 17 check at Disadvantage to escape. That’s strong enough to keep monsters locked down for a few turns and spellcasters can no longer cast spells. That’s a BIG deal. And the only setup is having someone with the grappler feat which is now an S tier playstyle for martials.
Or could throw Caltrops, or Ball Bearings, or a Grappling Hook to reposition, or a net, or use alchemy supplies to set something on fire.
Seriously look at the new equipment list and so many have unique and interesting Utilise actions that really allow the Thief to be a Jack of All Trades which options to suit just about any situation.
All that’s missing for them is a batarang
@@kailae3269 that's just a fancy throwing knife😁.
Not just that, they can use the magic action as a ba. They can cast from wands and staffs, even spell scrolls as a ba. At lvl 18 with a dip into a mage class they can cast 4 spells in one round
Not to mention they are just ignoring the magic action which I guess would be taking in multiclassing... but still its so good, I have a warlock/thief rogue that is writing cantrip scrolls to eldritch blast with both action and bonus action
A one level dip in Monk and you could grapple with your attack (using your Dex) and chain them up with your bonus action.
Bonus action utilize is good now because Rope, Manacles, and other similar items have actually RAW usable restrain effects (*relying on ability checks!!*) AND Oil has fire damage synergy that the party can combo with. Lots of options! A tier for me.
A thief rogue is like Batman. The more prep time and resources they get, the better they are
Level 8 thief 3 / wizard or sorcerer 5 could simply scribe their own fireball scrolls and then cast a fireball as an action and use the scroll as a bonus action.
@@TheGrandWaz00 just go wizard 1 and craft scrolls of true strike, that way you can ready another true strike with your action and get 2 sneak attacks in a turn for only 15 gold and 8 hrs of crafting.
1 they have to think about it objectively. Like they said in the video. What happens if the dm just doesn’t give you magic items
@tobiaswallin1847 those aren't magic items, those are mundane. Also, you can craft your own scrolls to use with a bonus action if you dip a caster.
When analysing the thief you should have remembered the reworked adventuring gear list in the new PHB book, they were improved a lot and now have their capacities explained in more objective rules.
All adventuring gear that requires one Utilize action can be used by a lvl 3 thief with a bonus action instead and their effects are now very objective and less dependent of GM fiat, is not possible to analyse the thief subclass without thinking about the adventuring gear too.
It feels like they completely forgot about it.
yeah it surprised me that they didn't do their research at all on this topic before making this video. it was unfortunate
Most tables won't implement the new utilize rule anyway.
@@MagiofAsuraI don’t know, I haven’t played at many tables that care about utilize or have bugged over gear rules.
My favourite non magic use of the thiefs fast hands so far, is to use a net with your action, which then allows you to use manacles with your bonus action (or rope or chain, but I think manacles are best).
Works doubley well because they're all skill checks that you can boost with your expertise.
Not damage, but I love the idea of being the bounty hunter character. Good for shutting down somatics on Spellcasters maybe too?
I agree and think tactics like these are being slept on
Now I'm picturing a rogue trying to sneak through a dungeon toting 5 nets and manacles clanking on their belt! 😂
@@83ericpsounds like a batman utility belt
@@83ericp Fair warning for those with DMs that don't ignore carry weight. Manacles are heavy!
@@John-Dennehy So a Goliath Thief for the extra carrying capacity.
I like the Thief Rogue because you can be creative in how you use all sorts of items with Fast Hands. You have to beg your DM for magic items with charges, though.
It’s worth looking in the adventuring equipment chapter for all the things you can do with them. Caltrops and ropes and flasks of oil are all pretty mechanically powerful now, and the thief is the best subclass to make the most of them
Or just Wizard or Artificier Dip.
@@pederw4900Flask of oil is exactly the same as it used to be EXCEPT you can't throw it with Fast Hands. Caltrops are also completely unchanged.
@@apjapkiohh good call
@@pederw4900 Healer's Kit is a good one
The one thing that makes Caltrops a bit better is with Cunning Strike disengage there are more chances to Caltrop AND Disengage same turn which is much easier than 2014.
Saying they nerfed assassinate is crazy, the old version needing surprise was a massive limitation
its a nerf in terms of potential but an actual buff in real play (except for gloom assassin builds at certain tables)
It will consistently work every combat, but at the cost of not getting autocrits the few times you get surprise. It's definitely a tradeoff, though because it doesn't have such a huge high anymore it's probably less memorable
Overall though: there aren't any dead levels anymore!!! Thank God. Waiting all the way until level 9 for a second subclass ability only to get a really situational ribbon feature really stunk.
Yeah, the new assassin is SO MUCH better than the old one. I am not sure what kind of games these guys have played, because in the whole ten years of 5e I have not seen anyone ever get the surprise thing off, player characters in general are not good at surprising anything, and half the people don't even know how surprise actually works.
It super depends on your DM and how they run suprise. Its either broken or useless; almost no in between
Yeah, the forever “noob favorite that they end up hating” assassin is way better now - the whole surprise thing was always a trap IMO unless you multiclassed gloomy in a ROTFM campaign or something specific like that.
EDIT: To clarify, the Assassin was never good in the 2014 edition and it’s not good in the 2024 edition either. I’m just comparing the subclass to itself, not to the other subclasses…old and/or new.
Facts.
For those interested in looking back.
Thief and Assassin get the same rankings in 2014 (B, C) but the Trickster and Soulknife used to both be S-tier in 2014
What makes envom weapons good isnt nessecarily the chance to deal extra damage, but rather the bonus damage completely negates the downside of using the cunning strike. assuming the foe has about a 50% chance to fail, half the time you lose 1d6 damage and half the time you have a net gain of 1d6. Which averages out to the same DPR.
This means you can attempt to apply the poisoned condition each turn wirh no cost to your average damage per round. It makes it essentially free.
The issue being that 50% is really generous, especially at 13th level. And then you consider you can count on your hands the number of monsters resistant to poison but immunity to poison is nearly a third of all entries.
But it's also every time they fail the saving throw, so you don't need 50% fail chance to get there.
Guys are you kidding me about the Thief? Magic items as a bonus action at level 3(!!) is absolutely fantastic! At the very least an A Tier for me :D
No, it's the textbook example of B tier, because it's entirely dependent on how much magic items your DM is giving out, if they don't give much, the thief is really underwhelming, if they give a lot, it can be really strong.
@@Klaital1 really you only need 1 useful magic item that you can use. You don’t need a ton. If your DM really gives you 0 magic items to use with your thief then yeah I guess it’s situational.
Even then, a simple multiclass 1 level dip into Sorc or Wizard can get you bonus action True Strike scrolls, which is extremely powerful and not DM dependent.
@@Klaital1 You could say the same thing about the Soulknife and Assassin being good at infiltration. The DM might not run a game where that happens, but most will. I don't think most DM's play such low level magic campaigns.
@@ultimafullmetal I don't really particularly much care about the infiltration part of the assassin, that is pretty much a ribbon feature. The reason I like assassin is because it's the rogue subclass that does by far the best damage, with every feature making you better in combat.
You also don't need magic items, normal equipment is good too. They have tons of options to help shut down an enemy
Are we forgetting that at level 3 thieves also get to use magic items as a bonus action? That has to count for something from levels 3-13
Certainly. But you can't quantify how useful that will be. Many DMs don't give out many magic items, or magic items with charges/consumables because they know their players will forget they exist. So is it great? Yeah, could be. Or it could be literally impossible to use
@@aidandunne5978 While thats true, every campaign Im in is chock full of them, and Ive found simply having a conversation with your DM about your expectations or just what level of magic content there is in the campaign is fantastic for making sure you get to use them. Besides BA to steal something from an enemy is always super valuable on its own, especially in combat. There's not a lot of ways to disarm enemies in dnd and Thief gives you a great way to do that
I'm not sure disarming someone mid combat would be a sleight of hand, that sounds more.like wrestling something out of someone's hands seems more akin to a grapple check.
But beyond that, while I agree, mostly talking with your DM should smooth over any issues or worries with not getting the magic items. But that's why it's a B. A tier subclasses don't require you to have that conversation, they will be strong so long as the DM roughly follows the rules, regardless of loot.
That doesn't mean it's not good, and that it can't be great. But if you are in a module that just doesn't have much inherent loot (looking at you Curse of Strahd), you may not get the chance to use your features much
@@aidandunne5978 I dont know, talking to them is the worst case scenario, and I feel like the benefits are really good, even compared to the other subclasses. I had a player choose thief rogue for a level 20 oneshot and they were invaluable. Didnt even have very many magic items, just a handful of spell scrolls the other players found and gave to them, it felt very powerful even compared to the spellcasters in the same party
@@DERyuga Right, but that's also at level 20. Many of us have not, nor ever will, see play above level 15. I agree, at high levels thief has some great features. But in the sweet spot of DnD where most people play (5-11) it's just alright unless you have a DM that hands out magic item consumables.
I think the new assassin level 3 is a *massive* buff. If your GM actually followed the 2014 surprise rules properly you practically never got it. Not to mention needing full-party cooperation to even use your class features, and the fact that it got turned off by normal things like, say, talking to foes prior to fighting.
I agree, i think the Assassin is far better than they were at every single level.
I think if one was able to get surprise semi regularly, the older version of assassin was probably better. But I don't think I've ever played in a game where the party got a surprise around more than a couple of times. So this update is actually a huge improvement for my groups, where every combat has a first round
45:45 ironically, Kelly would warn players by explaining the *Assassin's* limitations the same way that I would explain the limitations of the *Psychic Blade* that isn't compatible with any other part of the game. It's *Soulknife* that stands out to me as the one that I would not pick. It's my only *C tier.*
100% agree, surprise RAW is virtually impossible with 2014 unless a campaign is built around it. Updated version is overall much, much better because you'll actually get to use it!
@@w4iph Not to mention that surprise was so insanely devastating in 2014 rules that if you got surprise you had pretty much already won the encounter anyways so the extra crit barely even mattered.
the fact they think that supreme sneak is like skulker means that they did in fact not read either feature since skulker lets you remain hidden when you miss with an attack while supreme sneak just strait up lets you remain hidden even if you hit with the attack
Definitely not the same thing
The two are actually great complements
Yeah OK, you're right....but maybe calm down a little.
Supreme sneak doesn't allow you to remain hidden if you miss. You have to hit with sneak attack and spend one of those d6 to stay hidden when you hit, so the feet and feature actually work together really well.
It also looks like, if a DM allows you to move from a hidden position and attack with advantage in melee by rushing it behind someone, you could potentially use supreme sneak to leap out of cover, make an attack, sneak attack and activate supreme sneak, and end your turn back in. Cover and remain hidden and invisible
It seems like the rules on the invisible condition when you are hidden has some wiggle room for DM interpretation in the new addition
@Wintermute909 nah. This is the appropriate level of attitude haha.
Thieves rouges can throw a net and chain/rope a target in the same turn, making the enemy use 2 or more turns to take the restraint condition. It can also throw the oil so him the other casters can use fire spells or cantrips to deal more damage or just throw caltrops to stop the enemy from moving. Thieves rouges will be really strong using these items to help that party, and if there are scrolls or magic items, they just become broken.
Cool argument. Have you seen a Thief rogue do this?
This will give players something tangible to spend their gold on too which is cool. All the new item actions become tech a thief can use in combat rather easily, which I think will be super fun.
New Assassinate features extra damage can proc twice on the first round.
get those reaction attacks.
It really makes me wish that Rogues had something like the PF2e Opportune Backstab rogue feat.
Opportune Backstab [R] (Feat 8)
*Trigger:* A creature within your melee reach is hit by a melee attack from one of your allies. *Effect:* When your enemy is hit by your ally, you capitalize upon the distraction. Make a Strike against the triggering creature.
as somebody who is playing the new Assassin the first turn advantage does come up a lot and combines really well with the new Poisoner feet
RAW. Yes fast hands let you use a magic item as an action and as a bonus action.
What I like about rogues is that they have a much different playstyle than most other classes. They are not built for prolonged combat, but rather they are the sneak in, bypass all the guards and henchman, then pick off key targets when they are alone. If they are caught and get overwhelmed, they are to then disappear and escape until they can start a new round of combat. The problem is that playstyle doesn't really mesh too well with the rest of the party, especially martial characters like the paladin, barbarian, or fighter who usually prefer the prolonged fights. Although barbarians might be a bit better with stealth missions now using their rage stealth with advantage.
BG3 Thief really spoiled us. I honestly thought that the additional bonus action was an actual part of the class😂
I would too but it'd be the new Hexblade dip for builds.
There was a reason every optimised BG3 weapon build used thief 😂
The one thing you guys missed on Soul Knife is that the psychic dice are not expended if a skill check is still failed,you don't get to keep spell slots when the spell doesn't work.
These videos are ESSENTIAL. Thank you!
I think the Thief is the perfect example of B tier as "S tier in the right campaign" Because I would only ever consider playing it in a long dungeon crawl with tons of magic items, something like Dungeon of the Mad Mage. But in that sort of campaign where magic items are abundant and you've got wands and staves out the wazoo, a Thief with a 1 level dip in wizard could pull double duty in the party of being the trapmaker and the arcana person. And if you can make a sneak attack AND cast a spell from a wand or staff every turn, you're gonna outdamage most anybody.
The one thing they didn't mention about the Thief is that in the 2024 PHB you can now scribe scrolls with tools. Take magic initiate to get true strike. Then scribe hundreds of scrolls of true strike. What you can do is hold your action to cast a scroll of true strike on the next persons turn, then as a BA cast a scroll of true strike. Both attacks get your sneak attack damage and if you take sentinel you can make your reaction easier to use your sneak attack as well.
💯 this! This may be a potentially broken RAW busted move and might need construction later but you are totally correct. Colby from D4 has discussed this in a recent build!
Ready action already utilizes your reaction so you wouldn't be able to double up on that and sentinel. That said, sentinel could still be nice for rounds where you want to use your action for something else.
@@DrgnDrake That is true. I always forget holding an action also takes a reaction to use. Thanks for the reminder.
Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong, but how do you figure both attacks would get sneak attack damage? Sneak attack can be applied only once a turn. Or am I missing something?
@MrCyrus1677 correct. The bonus action scroll is on your turn and then the held action is on the next turn. So 2 separate turns so 2 separate sneak attacks
Gonna play devil's advocate for Thief. The new adventuring gear rules for rope, chain, nets, all those great tactical items, makes the battlefield controller Thief actually quite interesting. Especially once you get reliable talent 🤔
The assassin poison ability isnt a 1d6 trade for maybe 2d6 damage. It's 1d6 for the poisoned condition AND up to 20d6. It deals 2d6 each time they fail their save, and the poison lasts a minute, with a save at the end of their turn.
Will it be amazing on something eith high con? No. But it will be fantastic on a caster who has to make a concentration check every turn when the damage ticks. Or against someone squishy, like an archer or an assassin type npc, giving them disadvantage on attack rolls.
The 20d6 is way to unrealistic. The reason for that is let's just ignore all your damage We are assuming that an enemy without legendary resistance is living 9 rounds of combat to be able do 20d6 poison damage. So, in reality in ideal condition would be up to 3 rounds for 8d6 damage most.
@@darklight9450 I understand it will never get to that in normal combat. It would, however, keep ticking on an assassin that flees, or even a spellcaster that teleports away. I think the couple d6s of damage are secondary to the poisoned condition and forcing concentration checks.
Don't forget the poisoned condition as well
@@MarkG-s3e Never said it was bad more I was more trying to say 8d6 poison damage is more realistic. Since you can opportunity attack that creature and have sneak attack.
You're looking at it incorrectly. What makes it so good is that the extra damage negates the cost of using the cunning strike. Assuming the opponent has a 50% chance to fail the save, half the time you deal 1d6 extra damage and half the time you deal 1d6 less damage. Which means the average damage per round using poison strike is exactly the same as not using it.
This means you can continually go for poison strike every round to debuff the enemy at no cost to your average damage. It's now a free feature :)
RAW and fully intended the thief would be able to use a magic item twice on their turn UNLESS the magic item itself disallowed it. The rule only prevents you from double casting with spell slots, not charges of a magic item. It’s why scrolls are so much more important now for wizards because they can cast fireball with a scroll and then teleport with misty step on the same turn
Assassin is being slept on a little bit. Yeah not having auto crit is a bummer, but the few times Ive played an assassin I got it twice in the whole campaign. This new feature at least guarantees something every combat. Adv to initiative is worth it alone. It also encourages you to STAY rogue. High level rogue adding their level to damage plus envenom weapons adds a lot over time. Take in mind that you can use True Strike on every rogue, there's even synergy to spec into charisma for being that infiltrator/disguise face for the party, so even the "ribbon" features can add a lot too by taking an origin feat in magic initative and choosing charisma as your casting ability. Being a one hit wonder is better than ever now!
I agree. I don't understand those that say that the original 2014 crit attack is better. That's nonsense. It's so hard to make work. Plus, there are options to build around in 2024. Your damage bonus can increase if you take the Poisoner feat at level 4 and apply poisons liberally. Depending on your chosen weapons, the skulker feat is great and sharpshooter for ranged. Depending on how your DM rules it, Dual Wielder + nick can add extra melee attacks and combine with Defensive Duelist. You've got options to work with.
Agreed, I think it’s at least a low b tier, cause in a low magic campaign they would do very well, and while yes there are ways to get advantage, the assassin allows you to get it automatically with no set up, you just need to go before the enemy. That to me is valuable, and allows for me to set up vex, or get into a good position for steady aim or to hide.
@@fortunatus1 I get surprise fairly often in my game, so it's not really that hard to make it work. It depends on your DM. My problem is that I have an assassin dip on my 2014 character, which is effectively worthless in the 2024 rules.
@@fortunatus1 I think they are saying a crit is just better than your level worth of damage. Doubling your damage is better than adding three damage. Yeah things around it have changed that makes it more likely to do something but taking away the crit makes the biggest feature of this class non existent.
@@extonjonas6820 Id love to take away that features mechanics to let me crit more often- thats not how the math works though. A crits damage is impressive on rogue but an extra per level damage every single combat is going to add up a lot over time. In the end its not a perfect workaround but it doesnt really make the assassin worse
I like having the Thief take the Healer feat and then is able to heal people as a bonus action in combat while fighting off the foe that hurt them.
Human Soulknife that picks a background with the Skilled origin feat, and uses their Human Versatile trait to take an additional Skilled origin feat. Just be proficient in all skills so you can always use Reliable Talent + Psi-Bolstered Knack.
But like why though. Like alert helps you and everyone out in combat for going first but if you don't value your turn order and rolling on it. Lucky gives you free advantage for your attacks without using or action or bonus or disadvantages of your enemy's attack. At most there are only 3 more skills that you want to learn as rogue.
All the DEX skills, all the CHA skills, all the Spot skills (Percept, Investigate, Insight), then three extra profs remain to either take 3 of 4 knowledge skills to also be smart guy, or the rest of the WIS skills to also be the outdoorsman. If both those roles are covered, three key tool proficiencies not covered by rogue + background (forgery kit, disguise kit, poisoners/herbalist kit) for advantage on those checks.
And then they get disadvantage because they’re in a dark room…
@@jsmith9677 I still hate the fact the rogue loses sneak attack even if they gain advantage on the turn. Like if you have disadvantage and can still attack with extra attack is still active.
@@jsmith9677still can’t roll below a 10.
Hearing you talk about the Thief has me thinking back to BG3 where *SO Many* of my characters take a 3 level Rogue Dip to get the extra Bonus Action every round...
The thief was really strong in BG3. Even if you take out the ability to attack with the bonus action that is in bg3, the ability to use an extra potion, grenade, scroll, throw a vial of _____ , is extremely useful. However it requires a DM to give out those items as swell as a player to utilize them.
On the topic of supreme sneak VS skulker, they seem to cover different situations. Skulker works to not reveal you on a miss, but supreme sneak works to keep you hidden after a hit! I agree with the rest of the reasoning but it has a bit more of a use than expected, mostly for ranged attacks
One of the things I like best about Psychic Blades is that they leave no visible injury: makes the Soulknife a better assassin than the Assassin. Sneak into the bedroom, coup de gras, "oh, they must have over-exerted themselves"
And can you imagine being remembered as the noble who died from over-exerting themselves in the bedroom?! Psychic embarrassment damage from beyond the grave
Use Object as a Bonus Action is amazing. Caltrops. Ball bearings. Medicine kit. A good player can make a great Thief.
I think that the assassin’s advantage in first round will be useful more often than you are presenting it. It frees them to use their bonus action to hide after attacking.
But just think alert basically at the end of the day does the same thing
I'd never dislike a Dungeon Dudes video, but this one was close lmao! I think yall are *massively* underrating both the Assassin and the Thief on almost every level.
I’ll give you the thief but the Assassin absolutely sucks. Compared to other rogue subclasses it’s absolute garbage. Thief as of now is good, but we don’t know what’s in the DMG so magic items might be changed.
@@jusz350 DPR calculations beg to differ, my friend. Assassin is gonna see a lot of use imo
I love you guys, but i absolutely disagree about the assassin. Features and attacks are reliable, has constant advantage, it's a skill monkey and at higher levels has the potential to do absurd damage. I'm doing the math for the dpr of every class on the new book myself and it's nothing to scoff at.
Rogues and barbarian might not be the strongest classes but they are reliable and they don't have to burn through slots, plus they are easy to use. That said, casters are still by far the kings of the game
I agree fully, assassin might not be super flashy, but it gets the job done. Like at level 20, using light crossbow with true strike, assuming no magic items or other features that increase damage, you do (1d8+25+3d6+10d6) x2 for average of 150 damage in a single hit.
@@Klaital1 Right? All that with advantage thanks to steady aim and vex. If there's someone who's truly suffering right now it's the poor ranger
Show working please.
Assassin damage per round vs Arcane Trickster casting True Strike at each tier of play, assuming 2+ rounds of combat (I think two is enough to prove the point, but more rounds favours the Trickster more).
They completely glossed over the fact that Assassin can give the Poisoned condition, not just poison damage.
Nah I disagree, dungeon dudes are somewhat right. Assassin should be able to one-shot one or two big enemies. It really gives an adrenaline rush to the players. I mean, so what if one big boss dies? I think the Dungeon Master should play around the Assassin character because it only does one big attack. Although, I don't think anything you said was wrong to counter argue against the changes.
Have no idea how you think the Assassin was nerfed?
Great vid, but that was mind boggling to me. Surprise for the players happens like...a couple times a campaign. Maybe once a level if the entire party is dex/stealth focused?
It was essentially a non feature in 99% of fights. Atleast now your guranteed to get it once a fight.
00:06 I like the shoulder flair Monty. Let’s see some more shoulder flair Monty
I never knew he had such pizazz. Really surprised me with the razzle-dazzle.
Worth noting with the Soul Knife that most class/subclass features that stated "(attack) is considered magical for the purposes of overcoming resistances" were replaced with changing the damage type to something other than bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, most commonly Force. Cody at D4 mentioned that it LOOKS like resistance to non-magical weapon attacks may be going away.
I'm running a (2014) campaign with a Soulknife Rogue/Divination Wizard and they are consistently the most powerful member of the party. In roleplay, exploration, and combat. It's such a flavorful subclass and is a hell of a lot of fun. Definitely the character that keeps me the most on my toes.
Using a chain to restrain an enemy or straight up stealing a spellcasters component pouch as a bonus action is very powerful.
I actually played a level 16 Arcane Trickster in a one shot that one of my player in my campaign ran(he is also a DM). He wanted to test out some stuff so he had the 5 of us just make a level 16 class with the new rules to see how it feels. I went with the Max INT build with Truestrike. I gotta say, it was awesome! Felt really really good. Can also cast Haste on yourself. Next turn you can stealth Fireball and then use the hasted action to cast true strike and get a massive sneak attack in. Obviously that is a costly couple turns but in general just having truestrike feels great because you can afford to take spells that require high INT and not sacrifice your Rogue damage and abilities. Have DEX and CON as ability score 2 and 3.
Guys the theif can use magic items as a bonus action... wands, scrolls, etc. Think about it
A Wand of Magic Missile. Guaranteed damage every turn using your BA, averaging 10.5 damage per charge. Meanwhile the Assassin only gets its damage on one turn of combat and won’t even touch Magic Missile’s minimum damage until level 6. It’s only Uncommon rarity and you get 2-7 charges back each day. Receiving Magic Items is the norm. The 2024 PHB acknowledges that fact with the “Starting Equipment at Higher Levels” table. Sure the DM can always have something different in mind, but that is exception, not the rule.
43:40 I know you do these rankings without multiclassing, but Thief 3 + one or more caster dips seems really strong to me. Craft, buy, or find scrolls and magic items and you have a Magic action every round of combat in addition to your normal action.
Maybe Magic Initiate would suffice?
Theif Rogue is the most powrful Subclass in the game. *IF* your DM gives you access to lots of magic items and scrolls. Otherwise it falls short.
You have a spellcaster in your party. They have arcana proficiency. They can now make spell scrolls for all of their spells. Feed them cash and problem solved.
what games are people running where magic items are irrelevant at level 13
As someone who has played a thief rogue with the home ruled ability to use magic devices with fast hands, which you seemed to gloss over, I can say it really does expand the glass and feel broken at times. Even an uncommon decanter of endless water can change combat. Though I will say this was before steady aim so advantage/sneak attack wasn't always guaranteed.
One thing that has worked really well for me as a soul knife rogue to balance the lack of power of the blades: since my character doesnt carry any other weapons, my DM allows me to correlate the Soul knives to the same die size as my psionic dice.
For reference, that's what Monty & Kelly gave to the subclasses for D&D 5e 2014:
Arcane Trickster : S
Assassin : B
Soulknife : S
Thief : B
I know we dont do any multiclassing in this, but 1 lvl dip in the wizard completely changes how much magic you can use. You can then craft any scroll on the wizard spell list. (I believe i could be wrong) , and clerics can give you scrolls from them and easily use theirs as well. The thief is the batman argument. With preparation, they can be absolutely amazing.
I’m not playing a rogue for the combat. I do not care that I’m not getting massive amounts of dmg, I’m already not getting mass dmg in 2014 rules. I play a rogue for the out of combat fun
I'm not a fan of the arcane trickster personally. The arcane trickster was my first long-term character. He died a few months in and I told the DM when the players try to resurrect me, don't let him come back.
I then rolled up a lore bard with prof or expertise in stealth, slight of hand, thieves tools, persuasion, deception, and perception. That character did every single thing I wanted my arcane trickster to do and so so much more (except my mage hand wasn't invisible).
its a testimony to how OP Bards are.
Basically traded in Int for Cha.
@@KnicKnac definitely more than that. Gained way more spell slots, way more spells, much higher level spells, and magical secrets. Going from int to cha was just a bonus.
@@The_Real_Pseudonym i agree. Now that I've played the game for almost 5 years, I strongly feel bard is the strongest class in the entire game.
Here's what I would have done with the Assassin's level 3 feature. Instead of the little extra damage, you would instead Crit on a 18-20 anytime you attack while your hidden from the target of the attack. More work but you could use it anytime if you play into the Assassin play style. I'd also add proficiency or expertise with stealth checks. I think the 2024 upgrades to the level 9 and 13 features are good, but they come so late that you really need the level 3 feature to be better.
That was cool
Thanks for posting
I love Rogues. I have been playing them since the early eighties
By far the most fun class
As always, loved it!! Thanks for this video 🎉. Did you plan to post the warlock’s one soon?Got a campaign on its way and i'm prepping for it, would love to hear your views ❤
I wish they had included Rune Knight and Swashbuckler in the PHB and then had Artificer with psionic subclasses in another book.
The UA Armorer Artificer multiclass with thief sounds very fun, ability to use magic items as a bonus action (which is usually unused for Armorer) with the ability to chose magic items to replicate. Just really difficult to balance the levels out since the rogue side is providing the bulk of damage but the good stuff is level 10+ for UA artificer.
I think the Assassin is going to be great for multiclassing. War Cleric / Assassin for example is going to be a tier 2/3/4 burst damage god. Just need to figure out how to pop off the upgraded sneak attack twice on turn 1.
I think the rogue in general is gonna be better than people think. At the right table at least.
Dont you only get sneak attack once per turn, or did they change that?
If you use the war cleric bonus action attack on your turn, ready the attack action and take it on the next turn, two sneak attacks.
@@nathans9764 right, that’s what I was getting at. You’ve gotta multi-class with something like the war cleric that lets you get two sneak attacks on round 1. Or have a teammate that will help you proc it twice.
It can be a beast as a multiclass even if it’s just okay solo.
@@okayhellohihowyadoin I play an order cleric at my table, which allows me to proc the rogue's sneak attack on my turn when I cast a spell on him.
@@extonjonas6820 once per turn, that’s why you hold your action for a true strike and just attack with the bonus action from war cleric.
I adjusted my character to use true strike in Out of the Abyss and it came in really clutch in our last big combat encounter.
I play a swashbuckling rogue in our campaign. We are currently level 5. Our DM wanted us to switch over to 2024 PH so I could switch to one of the new versions. How does swashbuckler stand up with the nick and vex options added to it compared to Soulknife or new Trickster?
You guys are usually on point so I was surprised by this tier list.
The utilize action with net, chain etc are really good.
Chiming in with the other comments to agree that you two are definitely underrating the Thief. Its definitely the one that most excited me
Arcane Tricksters have the most potential to become S Tier in the future as more publications come out with more options for spells. Thieves can also make that climb, but that depends on the DM's generosity and how the crafting rules work in the new DMG.
Thief only needs one good magic item (or a 1-level dip into caster) to shine, but Arcane Trickster can never get out of being a one-third caster who is completely pointless if there's a real arcane caster in the party.
@@bunbunkitten I strongly disagree with this. A rogue with easy access to Shield, True Strike, the blade cantrips, Shadow Blade, Invisibility, Counterspell/Dispel Magic, Silvery Barbs, and many other powerful spells are really good no matter how many spellcasters you have in the party. While you probably won't need to bring spells like Fireball, you can still bring tons of other spells to contribute without a full-caster stealing the show.
I've been playing a soul knife for 6 levels now and I can confirm it fucking rules! The telepathy and psi bolstered knack has saved out party a bunch of times and the attack bonus action is great for some solid extra damage. The fact that your soul knives get vex is incredible as well since it pretty much guarantees sneak attack on your next turn. Would absolutely recommend anyone to try it for themselves, its been so much fun!
From looking through the DMG, I found these examples of magic items that a thief could use as a bonus action with the level 3 feature that all have a decent number of uses and would be completely transformative to the character:
Uncommon: gem of brightness, pipes of haunting, wand of magic missiles
Rare: mace of terror, necklace of fireballs, ring of spell storing, tentacle rod, wand of fear,
Very rare: helm of brilliance, ring of shooting stars,
Legendary: ring of invisibility
The other great thing about Psi-Bolstered Knack is if you still fail the check, the die isn't expended. And Psychic Whispers is free once per long rest.
The Soulknife used to be a type of rogue in AD&D 2nd edition Dark Sun. It is good that it became more widespread.
I’m curious how the Dungeons Dudes read the Fast Hands feature.
I read it as allowing the Magic Action when using items, which Magic items state when that is the way to use them, but does not allow you to cast a spell using a magic item. Since casting a spell is a different use of the magic action. This would rule out spell scroll usage based on the current text on the spell scroll section under adventuring gear.
But, I seem to read that the wider accepted reading is that you can use scrolls with fast hands.
Thoughts?
In what way could you "use" a scroll and not cast the spell? If the magic item casts a spell, taking the magic item to "use" the item casts the spell. Using a magic action to cast a spell is about casting it with the spellcasting feature and not items.
Also the scrolls pushes thief to A as well.
I am creating a Soulknife, im glad you touched on the modifier for bonus attack. No one every mentions that. It adds up! Im really disappointed fighter initiate didnt get ported into 2024 PHB, but the thrown weapon fighting style to get a +2 to dmg essentially turning blades hit die to a d10 and d8, but even better because flat damage. If I were the DM id recommend giving a soul knife a magical item thats not a weapon. think like a cloak that gives a +1 bonus to attack and damage to psychic attacks. you could make something that gives them a boost as they fall off. But honestly they have such good utility that I dont mind they are weaker in the damage department. With vex, you will be hitting a lot with advantage (carries over to next turn AND can be used to set up opportunity attacks WITH sneak attack since adv is possible/likely) so honestly I dont even think that they suffer too much in damage. Soulknife is my FAVORITE subclass, and one of if not my favorite subclass among all classes. Love you guys!
It is cool but I am really sad that this doesn't work with new Dual wielder, it just seems strange to me. I would probably let it work as dm, doesn't seem broken and there's 0 reason for non magical modest weapons not to be light
@@DandDgamertrue, but that means they can benefit from things that say, can’t have anything held in hands. There’s still some kinks to work out. I’m gonna ask my DM if I can flavor my psychic blades to be a different shaped weapon. Like melee wolverine claws, or a martial weapon. And ranged attack can be like kunai, even maybe a little secret pop up gun like at the end of Django. Just whatever badass flavor I can add since it doesn’t specify what the weapons look like or if anyone can even see them. I’d enjoy making a bunch of different ideas
Why not use the dueling fighting style instead?
It adds +2 to Damage rolls no matter what kind of attack you’re making, Ranged or Melee.
Unless you’re holding a physical weapon in your other hand you’ll always meet the requirement.
@@James-kv3ll because it’s very unclear in RAW about Soulknife. Dueling says you have to have a melee weapon in one hand and no weapons in the other. It’s very gray since Soulknife rogues don’t have anything in their hand until they take the attack action. Dueling would be better, but it’s so much uncertainty with rules. What if you made a ranged attack, it’s a melee weapon but thrown, but that’s what I consider a bad faith ruling since it’s exploiting. Dueling is supposed to be the single rapier swashbuckler style. It’s just too much uncertainty with rule interaction that I feel a majority of DMs wouldn’t allow it.
@@ViaEffects Good to know a random guy on the internet knows a majority of DMs. That’s impressive man
I wish the soul-knife's on-hand psi blade scaled with the psychic energy dice - this would make up mostly for a lack of magic items. As a DM, I could introduce a magic tattoo (requires attunement) that would do this and maybe give them the option to do force damage in lieu of a magic weapon. This would scale with the character, off-setting the potential for martial types to upgrade their weapons over their career.
I think you're absolutely right that the Assassin needed more to actually compete with the other subclasses, and to have an ability which came into play more often. I think that the Assassin should enhance a base rogue class ability, the way that thief enhances Cunning Action. For the Assassin, I would homebrew that once per turn when they use Cunning Strikes, they still apply all of the normal sneak attack damage, if they want to (maybe with an exception for the Knock Out, which costs 6d6).
That's not a ton of extra damage, mostly 1d6, but it's a cool way to show that the assassin is just a bit more lethal (or mean) than other rogues. Also, it can come up most turns in combat, which makes it seem analagous to weapon masteries. I would suggest limiting it to once per turn so that when rogues get to apply 2 Cunning Strikes there is still some cost, but still, that can be a very nice upgrade without breaking anything.
I'd make this a level 9 feature and move the 9th level Steady Aim enhancement down to 3rd level. I think that version of the Assassin is what I'll use at my table and it makes it seem like a good, non-magical competitor to the Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife.
Loved this. Please do a sorcerer subclass 2024 ranking.
Nick weapon mastery only requires that the extra attack use a weapon with the “Light Property” to make the extra attack part of the action instead of the bonus action. Any single handed Vex weapons will give advantage to the extra attack for sneak attack. Rapiers & daggers are still a rogues best friend.
A soulknife x/feywander 5 is an amazing multiclass.
You get hunters mark for your 2 attacks, and bonus action attack, and with vex youll be getting advantage as long as you hit for sneak attak. You get a fighting style, and personally I'd take thrown weapon fighting for that +2 on each attack, you get hunters mark which is great for damage. And an extra d4 each round, which isnt as great as hunter but that charisma buff.
Adding your wisdom to all charisma checks is just a fun way to be the rougue that can deal damage, can sneak, has a high wisdom and because of that high wisdom you can the face of the party.
At 10 level if you are 7 soulknife 3 feywander and lets say you took skilled as a starting feat you have at least 10 proficiencies skills (more if you race adds any), 5 expertise (4 from rogue 1 from ranger) a fighting style, charisma is just as good or better than wisdom for skill checks, if you hit every turn you get 4d6 for sneak attack, 2d6 for hunters mark on both attacks, 2*dex +4 for thrown weapon fighting and a d4 for being a feywanderer. And if you somehow pass an ability check you are profeciant in, boom soul die to bump it!
You're underestimating the Thief. I'm the most excited for the shenanigans I can get up to just by buying scrolls.
I've been playing a shadar-kai soul knife with shadow touched. So have had teleport and invisibility and its been great.
32:25 I'm excited to do this with the monk, shadow subclass. Cast darkness on a weapon, throw it at an enemy, then shadow step later.
I need Kelly's shirt from the sponsor ad at the beginning of the video so bad
So part of me feels like what the damage boost for assassin is trying to incentivize is the use of the cunning strikes because if you look up the cunning strikes you see that the levels you gain them at,5 and more at 14, plus most of the d6 cost, adds up to a semi equal distribution. So for example, at level 5 you can trip an enemy or poison them for 1d6, well with the assassin ability if you target the most problematic enemy you can sacrifice potential 6 damage for an extra effect to tip the rest of the combat in your parties favor and because you are level 5 you do 5 damage anyway so that d6 cost is not as pricey for you. So I feel like the assassin is trying to deliver conditions at the start of combat instead of damage
Currently playing a soul knife rogue right now in campaign (10 rogue 1 hex blade special homebrew stuff) its already so busted now this is even crazier. Right now the dice are only D8s and can only be used on proficient skills. Being able to on all skills is so crazy.
Bonus action use of a spell scroll is legit good
An observation of the Assassin level 3 damage - a level 5, they would probably be dealing 10 damage every 2 encounters, in contrast if a Battle Master Fighter is using a Maneuver that lets you add a Superiority die to damage after landing a hit, and getting a Short/Long rest every 2 encounters they should be able to get 18 damage every 2 encounters plus the other effects of the selected maneuver. It definitely feels like the level 3 Assassin damage could safely be bumped to 2 times your Rogue level.
Something to add to the Assassin: It used to be the most "out of combat" roleplay focused Rogue. If you can avoid a combat by infiltration and assassination, the second and later rounds of combat are not going to matter. Very very campaign dependant.
Thief imo becomes mandatory for any caster that wants to replace losing Action Surge to double-cast more than cantrips. Since scrolls scale with your caster mod and attack bonus, they hit as hard as your spell slots.
Honestly can't believe you gave thief B even though they get nothing useful until 13th level and gave the assassin C for only gave skills that are universally useful.
@@zackcrow1776 They completely breeze through it, but they do in fact get to use magic items and the HIGHLY buffed mundane equipment as a bonus action from level 3. That alone makes them great. With a 1 level dip into a caster they get scrolls as a bonus action from level 4. That is also amazing.
Fast hands is very good, you just need to be aware of the items you can use.
Magic items as a bonus action is pretty great though that depends on what your DM gives out.
You can throw ball bearings or caltrops as a bonus action so you can help with area denial.
One of the greatest uses for a common item, you can use a rope to restrain someone who is grappled as a bonus action! Meaning you can throw a net as an action and restrain in the same turn, or maybe a team member grappled a target and you can use it as a bonus action then attack.
It gets absolutely insane if you dip 1 level in wizard, because now you can use spell scrolls as a bonus action which is incredible for damage or control or whatever you need. (You also get this at level 13 ofc, but getting this as early as level 4 is amazing.)
I'm an arcane trickster right now and I was actually shocked how powerful the spells really do make the rogue.
fiest time playing a rogue and just getting to lv 2. this got me thinking what to subclass into at 3
I built a Loki character that's 5 levels of Thaumaturg Trickery Domain and 3 levels of Soul Knife and holy crap. Expertise, guidance, enhance ability, and psi-bolstered knack plus a Luckstone and Magic Initiate Wizard...
Random thing too funny to just not comment it: an election commercial popped up for me *just* at the right time.
Kelly: so here’s what I got to say about the assassin-
Commercial: Americans abroad have a right to vote from *anywhere*!
I feel like assassin deseved a b- atleast because in the right setting most of its features are pretty good. An example would be a low magic setting with a down time feature that takes in a city you are trying to infiltrate so youll mostly be fighting humanoids. It could play like youre in a guild or rebel group and you get missions that you get downtime to prepare for. Maybe that makes it a little niche, but I think there are a lot of ways the DM and the player can work together to make the subclass excel.
Thief massively underestimated here, largely because the magic item rules have changed and this is not being taken into consideration. A Thief can use a True Strike casting magic item (or scroll) as a Bonus action to get an off-turn Sneak Attack via Ready on their Action. Even if not using that extraordinarily powerful way to use the feature, most any magic item with a combat spell or ability is great to get as a Bonus action.
Everyone can craft now with crafting rules, if they choose to do so, simply from a Background - there is some unreliability in getting the materials for any _one_ magic item (not DM fiat, but a roll), but note that the materials are per magic item so as long as you have even just a few other options that could be useful you WILL find materials for at least one of them. Even then, technically the rule states _you_ were unable to find the materials, so theorectically _someone else_ could - but I'll presume most DMs will say the roll is a blanket roll for that settlement for that magic item. Then there are Hirelings which are super cheap to craft for you - DM fiat if they exist, but would be super odd to literally have none in a town or city (I mean, that is the whole point of civilisation!). Then there are Bastions which do not require a roll OR DM fiat (albeit, you wont get bastion crafting until level 9).
Also, the magic item loot rules and tracker are VERY generous. The 2014 days of saying _maybe_ you will get a useful magic item are long gone.
Another note, the level 9 feature is far better than Skulker. Skulker lets you remain hidden if you _miss_ - it does nothing if you hit. Given you have Advantage, the chance of missing is not high. Supreme Sneak allows the Thief to remain hidden even if they _hit_ - which they probably will (and works if they miss too). This can allow the Thief to basically become untargettable as long as there is some two-thirds-decent cover nearby (and yeah, ranged is obviously the better option anyway given how fragile Rogues are and how Steady Aim/Hide works). Supreme Sneak allows for the Bonus action to be used while maintaining all the goodness of Hide - like, using that Bonus action for casting True Strike via a scroll or magic item.
Cantrip scrolls are basically once per day per person crafts, plus any Hirelings, plus any that can be bought in shops (cantrips are listed in the general purchase section, so should be quite readily available). Cantrip scrolls are super cheap to make, and barely anything to buy. Then you scrolls coming from loot - potentially very poweful scrolls. Sure, maybe you don't use scrolls literally everyone round of combat (unless you can bulk buy some from city or Wizard's tower), but to say the whole thing is DM fiat? This would require a DM shutting down every possible way of getting magic items including scrolls, from crafting, to bastions, to loot. At this point you might as well say that casters are D rank, then when asked why you say because the whole world could be in an Anti-Magic Zone.
To top it off, the level 17 feature is pretty amazing.
This subclass is a reliable A unless the DM is really out to shut it down, with the possibility of being S at times with high level scrolls.
With the assassin, if they made their first strike instead of bonus damage based on level, make so you don't have to roll your sneak attack damage. It just procs a full potency. That would at least make the damage scale slightly better and somewhat still feel like a crit on the first turn. And if you do crit with that attack. Holy cow.
I honestly think that if the damage for the assassin was double your level on first attack and if they changed out the kit proficiency for something like silent movement where you could be detected by blindsight or tremorsense that it would be at least an A
In B4 they review Thief without mentioning a caster dip to bonus action Scrollcast at L4.
(I know the video isn't about multiclassing but even so)
EDIT: Lol they didn't even put Magic Item fast hand use on the summary card so yes, point feels pretty missed.
Not to mention even your playing a pure thief. AT level 13 with one feat, in dnd 2024 you can make so you can use 9th scroll always lets you pass with +2 in intelligence. Since the dc for scroll not going away is an arcana check with dc of 10+spell level. So, all you have to is get the skill expert feat at level 12 select arcana get Proficiency in it. Reliable talents give you 10+12=22 on the arcana check. 22>19.
@@darklight9450 What are you talking about? You ALWAYS lose a scroll you cast.
I would re-read my man. That's not what that ability does.
@@apjapki It says only on a fail save the scroll disintegrates.
@@darklight9450 No, you've misunderstood. If the roll fails you don't cast the spell and the scroll disintegrates. If you pass the roll, you cast the spell.
Now look up what happens when you cast a spell from a spell scroll. When you have cast it, it disintegrates.
The roll is purely about whether you are able to cast the spell. That's why there is no roll for cantrip and L1. Of course they cannot infinitely cast from any scroll. That would be broken and make a mockery of caster classes (especially since it would imply you could cast twice a turn).
@@apjapki yeah I relies that now I just misunderstood that line of text. Well I am glad that I am wrong on that.
Every Thief should come with a magic item that let's you cast a couple of spells similiar to the magical Bard lutes etc. That fits great with the premise that you stole that precious artifact from somewhere.Then you basically get a cool spell every turn as your bonus action while still dealing your sneak attack with your main action and you are awesome at combat versatility. If you don't have such an item or a wand etc you basically don't have a subclass.
The Thief even at lvl 3 can use cantrip and lvl 1 scrolls, and 2024 RAW cantrip scrolls scale as normal cantrips, so you could take Eldritch blast scrolls with Hex and be like a Sorlock
Thank you for your videos.
The thief is so good and interesting. Yes, you're going to be a little loot goblin... but who expects a rogue not to be a loot goblin? I think this subclass will function just fine at most tables and most DMs are going to be excited to pick out neat items for their thief.