A more accurate phrase to Waffleman's point about MVS is probably 'Changes' over 'Innovations', since a lot of what MVS altered is pretty subjective like Wall Cling over No-Ledges, but I can still think of some general improves they did. - World and Character Emotion, MVS handles this so well. They give you a reason to be interested in these characters (more then just their gameplay functions), in some areas better then Smash. Notably with the in-match banter and trailers. (Yes they have a headstart since these are pre-established characters, but there was still a clear effort and it's done well). Most other Plat Fighters either do it poorly, or just straight don't even attempt. - The Dodge system is very well done. IMO a leg-up over Smash's with how it handles the meter, Stalness and Burnout. Along with canceling it into moves for apporaches and combos. (Burnout is also much less of a feel bad mechanic then Ult's sluggish Dodge Staleness) - The game's VFX and Huds convery much more gameplay info to the player. (Purple hit trails break armor, huds when you dodge attacks, inflicted with a status, grey percent, etc) - The perk system adds plenty more options for customization and expressabliy like that perk which replaces your Air-Parry with a Platform to do Grounded Attacks in air. (Along with the many character specific perks such as Wonder Woman's Lasso and Jason's Teleport) - More move types have that Smash Attack Charge function with additional bonus functions like a Burst move pushing you further, moves have more range, projectiles are thrown further, moves gain armor, etc. So simple, yet cool additional - As mentioned in the Stage podcast and Combo Devils server, the stages have more interesting elements for competitive matches or at least Causal Competitive ones. I really hope more people don't overlook or handwave these elements/ideas for other games cause MVS is slow or "bad", or whatever complaint.
The first point about branching the communities together is an amazing point. And what better day to bring communities together than what smash was built on, crossovers? I know it would probably never happen, but man we have so many talented developers in this community. Imagine if these fools got together like the avengers and made the street fighter vs tekken, marvel versus capcom type game, with everyone pooling their knowledge and power together. The biggest platform fighter kickstarter ever. We could truly rival the size and polish of smash. 2. And Just more character crossovers in general. I think rivals 2 can get a lot of people like fishbunjin, Afi and Galu, the omenforged from Spiritfall
Leviathan (?) had my favorite take on innovation. In my opinion, I think innovation should be taken with a grain of salt. I think if you’re going to do something new, it should be so well that the people who play it legit feel like it was made for the genre. A lot of rivals 1 people feel like every game without drift DI is a downgrade, the same with wavedash or hitfalling or cancel into tilts. And the RR people can’t fathom games without spark, not saying it should be in every game, but I would hope it has that kind of impact on the players. Idk if parry, burst, ex, air dashing, lack of ledges and shield, having roll and air dodge on a meter, weapons like brawlhalla, slime are on that level, parry maybe closest. And sometimes innovation can make you do things like stardust Valkyrie’s, where you used to have to L cancel every time you jumped, even if you empty hopped or ran off of platforms. Some ideas just aren’t that good, and trying is really only beneficial for the devs if it turns out to be good. Can be bad cause it could turn off players by “doing too much”, since most plat fighters are already biased towards simplicity
It's funny that Cross Impact was pointed and laughed at but at the same time I'm sad no one is excited for Fraymakers. That game definitely was a good candidate for the topic of landing a good first impression like NASB 1.
I think what's important about platform fighters is availability. Which platforms are they available in and their cost. Consider that the standard is Smash at 60 bucks. There are some free platform fighters available on many platforms for many years, i think that's why Brawlhalla is the only one that is still relevant outside Smash.
Didn't the devs for Rivals 2 say they're working on stuff regarding Crouch Canceling after that hyperflame video? Edit: Yeah they already adjusted stuff regarding floor hugging in the latest dev build it was mentioned and shown in the august dev ticket tournament on their youtube.
NASB2 and multiversus were the two closest to making it. Only issue is multiversus has trash gameplay and wack monetization, tho thankfully they still working on the gameplay. Imo when NASB 2 opened the free weekend to play, I had no expectations, but was surprised that it was actually mad fun. Side content and stages were awesome! It’s just that it had some really bad vfx, zoomed out camera/tiny characters, and every character had like half really nice animations and trails, and half atrocious. And so many hitboxes just didn’t match the animations. I truly feel if that mess was ALONE was polished and it had one more year in the oven, it would’ve sold really well. Everyone’s thoughts were “a sequel already?” And intrinsically knew it was gonna be bad in some way. Everyone forgave NASB 1 for its sins because it was supposed to be garbage, but it was made with love and two nickles . NASB 2 was SUPPOSED to be an actual contender, and it let everyone down.
I also feel like the real problem I have is a lot of platform fighters either have the Rivals 2 problem of being glued to the floor or the more common problem of everyone being a balloon. I just want my play fighters to be able moving around the stage.
One small thing some of these games should do is advertise to Steam deck users because I have my steamdeck and bringing it to friends houses with my workshop content in rivals of Aether is fun.
@@UsingGorillaLogic There's weekly tournaments in their official discord really. Every weekend, and they even got in game prizes (if there are enough entrants). The bots are there to get you some "placement" matches, but people don't really bother to learn the game.
I know you guys don't want to hear it, but Melee literally perfected the gameplay of the standard barebones platform fighting games. That's why brawlhalla and Playstation allstars did/do well. It's also why games like combo devils and all the other gay games with meters and air dashes will fail. Those things do nothing but make the games worse. This isn't just for platform fighting games. Normal fighting games also suffered this fate. The difference is they were ruined so early people couldn't see what was lost, but normal platform fighting game players can literally see it. They can see fundamentals of the game being completely removed or bypassed. That's also why degenerate zoomers like them more. They played games that lacked fundamentals, too. Everything that that weirdo talked about about not liking L cancels or crouch canceling are all barriers to instant gratification in these games to encourage the games to not be spam fest where you just throw out moves that are safe until you hit then do combos.
Thanks for posting the gigantic unhinged rant with like no sense of logic. Like really?… you’re tellin’ me Playstation Allstars was a well regarded game and success?… if it was a financial one don’t you literally just think because it had parappa and kratos in it? I’ve never EVER heard it be played competitively, i’ve only heard the complaints like how you have to use specific finishers to close stocks. And like… come on mate, not the fundamentals baloney. Literally anime fighters were niche for the longest time because they never reached large audiences, not because they had airdashee and allowed you to do stupid crap. Marvel vs. Capcom is about as insane and ‘degenerate’ of a fighting game breed, and it was uber popular. Almost as if it was cuz it was published by capcom and had marvel characters in them. Like Marvel didn’t have that MCU mainstream superpower, but like spiderman and the like were still household names at the time. Not to mention Guilty Gear Strive and Dragon Ball Fighterz exist and became mainstream largely do to their amazing animation style. Like mate, I don’t know how you can act like your take is 100% fact while also being so emotionally charged when so much is wrong with it.
@@brogoyle @brogoyle um yes Playstation Allstars had a big healthy community for years. It didn't have a huge casual scene like you said because getting kills was hard if you didn't know how the game worked and that resulted in a lot of people relying on level 3 specials which meant either a cut scenefor 1 stock that took forever to build or possibly losing 2 of your 3 lives at once but all things considered it did alright better than the array of garbage indie platform fighting games we have today. Also yea I am bringing up fundamentals. Lots people had access to random anime fighting games, and I remember everyone thinking they were terrible because they were so far off the norm, and you could just do different things that people didn't want to deal with. Also, like I said, smash being uncontested for almost 20 years made it so people that like the genre appreciate the fundamentals at such a deeper level. Street fighter didn't even exist for 10 years before they started breaking that game's rules.
@@lordmew5 i’m sorry mate but your rebuttal just seems both spiteful and incoherent. Your only argument that makes sense is the idea that smash will be untouchable as the king and it makes adjusting a bit weird. But in reality it just sounds like you have a weird hate bone for indie platform fighters and are trying to present your heavily warped and strange attachment to the fundamentals as gospel to why alternatives tend to fail. Like you didn’t even TRY to rebute the MvC point, and no, I looked, Allstars didn’t exactly have a big scene, and is remembered very not fondly aside from its recognizable roster. You’re telling me airdashes in the place of airdodges is some sort of breaking of smash fundamentals, but Brawhala having a focus on item combat with COUNTLESS gameplay differences like chase dashes, dash jumps, the ability to do grounded moves in the air, and Playstation Allstar’s EVERYTHING isn’t?…. What the actual heck pick-and-choose argument is this? Do you like platform fighters differentiating themselves from the “fundamentals” or not?… And how can one be so spiteful as to call people that like anime fighters aa “degenerate zoomers”? Do you seriously expect me to believe you are actually making a good faith argument? Are you going to deem me subhuman for liking different things from you? I literally don’t even play those kinds of games that much and i can smell the second-hand butthurt.
ignoring certain things about this post........... im skeptical that melee "perfected" the gameplay as someone who plays melee and brawl there's gameplay/interactions in brawl that in my view don't exist in melee, which i do value. if i want to play, for instance, the dedede vs metaknight mu, i cannot do that in melee the game doesn't have l canceling and crouch canceling (to some extent) and can still be completely fulfilling and engaging for me to play
@@brogoyle I'm sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood some things. Rivals 2 is an amazing platform fighting game it may even surpass brawl as the second best platform fighting game, and rivals 1 and Nick Allstars 2 are great, too. I even liked brawlout. Secondly I didn't say people that like anime fighters are degenerates I was specifically talking about the zoomers who think a good fighting game is when spammy options that allow you to just fly all over the screen from the get go with little to no skill. That's why they tend to like the idea of what games can be but hate the actual games. They ruin Melee by making macros and changing code to make extremely hard mechanics easier. Then, when they make new games, they completely remove things like L canceling, making them become spammy. I did refute the mvc2 to point. that game is terrible if we are looking at pure fighting games fundamentals, but fighting games players never really had a chance to fall in love with their fundamentals. Allstars had hundreds of players look every day, but big is relative, I suppose it is remembered very fondly by its players but not from the outsiders and casuals. I know you didn't play buy, yes, psasbr was actually very similarly fundamentally. Whereas brawlhalla is on the opposite extreme, that game is nothing like smash to the extent that there is very little crossover, and if you had asked a smash player or any fan of platform fighting games about it between 2014 and 2017 people wouldn't even conceive of putting it in the same genre(thats because at the time the genre was smash and smash clones). These are the only two legitimate options. Completely remove yourself from smash or pay along and don't rock the boat too much. I mean, don't we all deem people as lesser for liking or believing different things? Also, I'm not butt hurt, but even if I was that wouldn't have a smell, pain didn't give off smells
Apparamtly the allegations for botting views on blindsight are inaccurate.
Just wanted to infofm everyone
A more accurate phrase to Waffleman's point about MVS is probably 'Changes' over 'Innovations', since a lot of what MVS altered is pretty subjective like Wall Cling over No-Ledges, but I can still think of some general improves they did.
- World and Character Emotion, MVS handles this so well. They give you a reason to be interested in these characters (more then just their gameplay functions), in some areas better then Smash. Notably with the in-match banter and trailers. (Yes they have a headstart since these are pre-established characters, but there was still a clear effort and it's done well). Most other Plat Fighters either do it poorly, or just straight don't even attempt.
- The Dodge system is very well done. IMO a leg-up over Smash's with how it handles the meter, Stalness and Burnout. Along with canceling it into moves for apporaches and combos. (Burnout is also much less of a feel bad mechanic then Ult's sluggish Dodge Staleness)
- The game's VFX and Huds convery much more gameplay info to the player. (Purple hit trails break armor, huds when you dodge attacks, inflicted with a status, grey percent, etc)
- The perk system adds plenty more options for customization and expressabliy like that perk which replaces your Air-Parry with a Platform to do Grounded Attacks in air. (Along with the many character specific perks such as Wonder Woman's Lasso and Jason's Teleport)
- More move types have that Smash Attack Charge function with additional bonus functions like a Burst move pushing you further, moves have more range, projectiles are thrown further, moves gain armor, etc. So simple, yet cool additional
- As mentioned in the Stage podcast and Combo Devils server, the stages have more interesting elements for competitive matches or at least Causal Competitive ones.
I really hope more people don't overlook or handwave these elements/ideas for other games cause MVS is slow or "bad", or whatever complaint.
The first point about branching the communities together is an amazing point. And what better day to bring communities together than what smash was built on, crossovers?
I know it would probably never happen, but man we have so many talented developers in this community. Imagine if these fools got together like the avengers and made the street fighter vs tekken, marvel versus capcom type game, with everyone pooling their knowledge and power together. The biggest platform fighter kickstarter ever. We could truly rival the size and polish of smash.
2. And Just more character crossovers in general. I think rivals 2 can get a lot of people like fishbunjin, Afi and Galu, the omenforged from Spiritfall
The biggest platform fighter guys coming together would be.... certainly very interesting
That would be the pipe dream
Fraymakers....
"i look up when i'm holding down" is a crazy ass bar LMAO
WHERE IS THAT?
Ludwig marketing for rivals 2 is a plus
Leviathan (?) had my favorite take on innovation. In my opinion, I think innovation should be taken with a grain of salt. I think if you’re going to do something new, it should be so well that the people who play it legit feel like it was made for the genre. A lot of rivals 1 people feel like every game without drift DI is a downgrade, the same with wavedash or hitfalling or cancel into tilts. And the RR people can’t fathom games without spark, not saying it should be in every game, but I would hope it has that kind of impact on the players. Idk if parry, burst, ex, air dashing, lack of ledges and shield, having roll and air dodge on a meter, weapons like brawlhalla, slime are on that level, parry maybe closest. And sometimes innovation can make you do things like stardust Valkyrie’s, where you used to have to L cancel every time you jumped, even if you empty hopped or ran off of platforms. Some ideas just aren’t that good, and trying is really only beneficial for the devs if it turns out to be good. Can be bad cause it could turn off players by “doing too much”, since most plat fighters are already biased towards simplicity
It's funny that Cross Impact was pointed and laughed at but at the same time I'm sad no one is excited for Fraymakers. That game definitely was a good candidate for the topic of landing a good first impression like NASB 1.
Ill be excited for fraymakers when its an actual full game.
This video is the most exposure to codename Breaking dawn the west will get.
cool! love to see leviathan here and rawin the """best""" VA for kidd
I think what's important about platform fighters is availability. Which platforms are they available in and their cost.
Consider that the standard is Smash at 60 bucks. There are some free platform fighters available on many platforms for many years, i think that's why Brawlhalla is the only one that is still relevant outside Smash.
What is the game at 1:28:01 and onwards? Looks cool and first time seeing it.
This was a good podcast.
It was REALLY GOOD. but now... its time for moc roc
Didn't the devs for Rivals 2 say they're working on stuff regarding Crouch Canceling after that hyperflame video?
Edit: Yeah they already adjusted stuff regarding floor hugging in the latest dev build it was mentioned and shown in the august dev ticket tournament on their youtube.
NASB2 and multiversus were the two closest to making it. Only issue is multiversus has trash gameplay and wack monetization, tho thankfully they still working on the gameplay.
Imo when NASB 2 opened the free weekend to play, I had no expectations, but was surprised that it was actually mad fun. Side content and stages were awesome! It’s just that it had some really bad vfx, zoomed out camera/tiny characters, and every character had like half really nice animations and trails, and half atrocious. And so many hitboxes just didn’t match the animations. I truly feel if that mess was ALONE was polished and it had one more year in the oven, it would’ve sold really well. Everyone’s thoughts were “a sequel already?” And intrinsically knew it was gonna be bad in some way. Everyone forgave NASB 1 for its sins because it was supposed to be garbage, but it was made with love and two nickles . NASB 2 was SUPPOSED to be an actual contender, and it let everyone down.
yo i'm glad someone is talking about touhou fractured transience! it looks rly cool
I also feel like the real problem I have is a lot of platform fighters either have the Rivals 2 problem of being glued to the floor or the more common problem of everyone being a balloon. I just want my play fighters to be able moving around the stage.
1:17:40
I told ya about it. lol
wait what is there a way to play combo devils?
I just think it was really stupid for them to call the game NASB 2 because now it's associated with the first one.
Really I just want a game my girlfriend would have fun with so I think sentinels inc will be great IF you can coop even with people online.
Sentinels inc maybe. I know fir a fact combo devils has atuff for coop
am i crazy or did they change the honor of kings game into a battle royale? like they just deleted it entirely and did something else????
wait hold on, i think its now 3 games in one, a pve sidescroller, a plat fighter and a battle royale???
One small thing some of these games should do is advertise to Steam deck users because I have my steamdeck and bringing it to friends houses with my workshop content in rivals of Aether is fun.
Flash Party is really good on Steam Deck, the touch screen works on the menus just how it should.
@@DjKlzonez Only reason I haven't played that is people told me it is full of bots.
@@UsingGorillaLogic There's weekly tournaments in their official discord really. Every weekend, and they even got in game prizes (if there are enough entrants).
The bots are there to get you some "placement" matches, but people don't really bother to learn the game.
second
first
third
I know you guys don't want to hear it, but Melee literally perfected the gameplay of the standard barebones platform fighting games. That's why brawlhalla and Playstation allstars did/do well. It's also why games like combo devils and all the other gay games with meters and air dashes will fail. Those things do nothing but make the games worse. This isn't just for platform fighting games. Normal fighting games also suffered this fate. The difference is they were ruined so early people couldn't see what was lost, but normal platform fighting game players can literally see it. They can see fundamentals of the game being completely removed or bypassed. That's also why degenerate zoomers like them more. They played games that lacked fundamentals, too. Everything that that weirdo talked about about not liking L cancels or crouch canceling are all barriers to instant gratification in these games to encourage the games to not be spam fest where you just throw out moves that are safe until you hit then do combos.
Thanks for posting the gigantic unhinged rant with like no sense of logic. Like really?… you’re tellin’ me Playstation Allstars was a well regarded game and success?… if it was a financial one don’t you literally just think because it had parappa and kratos in it? I’ve never EVER heard it be played competitively, i’ve only heard the complaints like how you have to use specific finishers to close stocks.
And like… come on mate, not the fundamentals baloney. Literally anime fighters were niche for the longest time because they never reached large audiences, not because they had airdashee and allowed you to do stupid crap. Marvel vs. Capcom is about as insane and ‘degenerate’ of a fighting game breed, and it was uber popular. Almost as if it was cuz it was published by capcom and had marvel characters in them. Like Marvel didn’t have that MCU mainstream superpower, but like spiderman and the like were still household names at the time. Not to mention Guilty Gear Strive and Dragon Ball Fighterz exist and became mainstream largely do to their amazing animation style.
Like mate, I don’t know how you can act like your take is 100% fact while also being so emotionally charged when so much is wrong with it.
@@brogoyle @brogoyle um yes Playstation Allstars had a big healthy community for years. It didn't have a huge casual scene like you said because getting kills was hard if you didn't know how the game worked and that resulted in a lot of people relying on level 3 specials which meant either a cut scenefor 1 stock that took forever to build or possibly losing 2 of your 3 lives at once but all things considered it did alright better than the array of garbage indie platform fighting games we have today.
Also yea I am bringing up fundamentals. Lots people had access to random anime fighting games, and I remember everyone thinking they were terrible because they were so far off the norm, and you could just do different things that people didn't want to deal with. Also, like I said, smash being uncontested for almost 20 years made it so people that like the genre appreciate the fundamentals at such a deeper level. Street fighter didn't even exist for 10 years before they started breaking that game's rules.
@@lordmew5 i’m sorry mate but your rebuttal just seems both spiteful and incoherent. Your only argument that makes sense is the idea that smash will be untouchable as the king and it makes adjusting a bit weird. But in reality it just sounds like you have a weird hate bone for indie platform fighters and are trying to present your heavily warped and strange attachment to the fundamentals as gospel to why alternatives tend to fail.
Like you didn’t even TRY to rebute the MvC point, and no, I looked, Allstars didn’t exactly have a big scene, and is remembered very not fondly aside from its recognizable roster. You’re telling me airdashes in the place of airdodges is some sort of breaking of smash fundamentals, but Brawhala having a focus on item combat with COUNTLESS gameplay differences like chase dashes, dash jumps, the ability to do grounded moves in the air, and Playstation Allstar’s EVERYTHING isn’t?…. What the actual heck pick-and-choose argument is this? Do you like platform fighters differentiating themselves from the “fundamentals” or not?…
And how can one be so spiteful as to call people that like anime fighters aa “degenerate zoomers”? Do you seriously expect me to believe you are actually making a good faith argument? Are you going to deem me subhuman for liking different things from you? I literally don’t even play those kinds of games that much and i can smell the second-hand butthurt.
ignoring certain things about this post...........
im skeptical that melee "perfected" the gameplay
as someone who plays melee and brawl there's gameplay/interactions in brawl that in my view don't exist in melee, which i do value. if i want to play, for instance, the dedede vs metaknight mu, i cannot do that in melee
the game doesn't have l canceling and crouch canceling (to some extent) and can still be completely fulfilling and engaging for me to play
@@brogoyle I'm sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood some things. Rivals 2 is an amazing platform fighting game it may even surpass brawl as the second best platform fighting game, and rivals 1 and Nick Allstars 2 are great, too. I even liked brawlout. Secondly I didn't say people that like anime fighters are degenerates I was specifically talking about the zoomers who think a good fighting game is when spammy options that allow you to just fly all over the screen from the get go with little to no skill. That's why they tend to like the idea of what games can be but hate the actual games. They ruin Melee by making macros and changing code to make extremely hard mechanics easier. Then, when they make new games, they completely remove things like L canceling, making them become spammy. I did refute the mvc2 to point. that game is terrible if we are looking at pure fighting games fundamentals, but fighting games players never really had a chance to fall in love with their fundamentals. Allstars had hundreds of players look every day, but big is relative, I suppose it is remembered very fondly by its players but not from the outsiders and casuals. I know you didn't play buy, yes, psasbr was actually very similarly fundamentally. Whereas brawlhalla is on the opposite extreme, that game is nothing like smash to the extent that there is very little crossover, and if you had asked a smash player or any fan of platform fighting games about it between 2014 and 2017 people wouldn't even conceive of putting it in the same genre(thats because at the time the genre was smash and smash clones). These are the only two legitimate options. Completely remove yourself from smash or pay along and don't rock the boat too much.
I mean, don't we all deem people as lesser for liking or believing different things? Also, I'm not butt hurt, but even if I was that wouldn't have a smell, pain didn't give off smells