Flower man's thoughts on platform fighter characters is exactly what I've been thinking about recently. I want to love characters like Kragg and Orcane, but the Rivals series gives me barley anything to care about its cast in terms of characters.
To quote a friend: "Microspacing like perfect pivoting might be key." More committal movement, but most hits lead to 20-40% on average. Each action is less wasted/more purposeful. You really have to earn each hit at times.
One thing I will say about the art side of things is you have to keep in mind the main mechanic is basically slap stick. You will notice when it comes to the main casual audience they love king k rool they love king dedede they and that is because they are expressive cartoon characters. I think most indie platform fighters are too focused on making their characters look cool and too little on making them look fun.
@@UsingGorillaLogic I'd argue you'd need to do both regardless of which you go for. If you go for cool, you have to pull it off properly. If you go for more cartoony, same. But the issue is, how many do that? I can''t think of any for Platform fighters where in many other genre's they pull it off enough to draw people. I think ultimately that ties in with adding personality to your characters as mentioned. You have to sell the audience your characters, which is easier said then done
@@SionReaver Oh for sure, I think it helps to have a strong thematic base to the characters. I mean Street Fighter has world warriors so they on average represent areas and fighting styles with a goofy twist here and there, Killer Instinct went for over the top 90s cool cheese, 3d ballz.... had ballz. Rivals has a good base for making it's character by making them elementally and animal themed so you just have to find a nice fusion of both ideas to make a character.
I think the key here is "expressive". Compared to other games, especially fighting games, the camera in smash is usually very far from the players, which makes seeing their expressions harder, especially the more realistic ones like snake or even the fire emblem staff. Meanwhile, characters like kong or dedede are very big and cartoony, which makes their exaggerated expresions easier to notice from afar.
42:08 spit balling an idea here with brawlhalla’s float mechanic. Imagine a platform fighter where the specials in the air are different from the specials on the ground. Both sets of specials would have different purposes, but if you wanted to use either one of whenever you want you would have to use a special meter to use those specials. The same would apply for normals on the ground. Kinda like Izanami from BlazBlue
As waffleman has said. I remembered multiversus doing that. But maybe implememt it better. You csn press a button and it changes the property of it. Say you have a side b on ground and air thats the same. You hold a button snd now its the new one. Might be a lot of work. But its an idea
I honestly think it could work for a Platform Fighter to be much more footsie based. Both Smash 4 and Ultimate just have a flaw where one component of the game is waaaay overcentralized and risk free so its not as fun as it could be. Namely -Shield (and Grab kinda) for Smash 4 -Safe Aerials for Ultimate also I think they made a bad decision by buffing the HELL out of Smash 4's low tiers in Ultimate, since a lot of them ended up being super annoying -Samus -Pac-Man -ROB -Game and Watch Although Smash balance is a separate issue from slower paced Plat fighters being fun.
I feel like heavy Neutral game is alot more incentivizing than punishment game. At least then it doesn't feel like you don't have to wait for a move to counter everything. Imagine having no grabs, shield breakers, and slow moves. Also fuck SDs from offstage directional air dodges in Smash Ult. Not fun at all to deal with and wasn't present in Smash 4
Finally someone is saying that not every platform fighters or any fighting games should be with unga Bunga braindead hitting someone with a plus on everything combo starting hay makers
I forgot. Heres MGGS Socials
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"Not every platform fighter has to be crack. Some of them can be weed."
- Me, listening to this video.
Thats pretty apt
Flower man's thoughts on platform fighter characters is exactly what I've been thinking about recently. I want to love characters like Kragg and Orcane, but the Rivals series gives me barley anything to care about its cast in terms of characters.
Theres more stuff we talked about... but its a lot. Maybe another episode later down the line
To quote a friend:
"Microspacing like perfect pivoting might be key."
More committal movement, but most hits lead to 20-40% on average.
Each action is less wasted/more purposeful.
You really have to earn each hit at times.
Flash Party mentioned!
One thing I will say about the art side of things is you have to keep in mind the main mechanic is basically slap stick. You will notice when it comes to the main casual audience they love king k rool they love king dedede they and that is because they are expressive cartoon characters. I think most indie platform fighters are too focused on making their characters look cool and too little on making them look fun.
Hmmmm, that's not a bad point.
It's another reason why people love Fishbunjin.
@@MrGameguyC It is also why my one friend only tried Rivals when I showed him Hodan.
@@UsingGorillaLogic I'd argue you'd need to do both regardless of which you go for. If you go for cool, you have to pull it off properly. If you go for more cartoony, same. But the issue is, how many do that? I can''t think of any for Platform fighters where in many other genre's they pull it off enough to draw people. I think ultimately that ties in with adding personality to your characters as mentioned. You have to sell the audience your characters, which is easier said then done
@@SionReaver Oh for sure, I think it helps to have a strong thematic base to the characters. I mean Street Fighter has world warriors so they on average represent areas and fighting styles with a goofy twist here and there, Killer Instinct went for over the top 90s cool cheese, 3d ballz.... had ballz. Rivals has a good base for making it's character by making them elementally and animal themed so you just have to find a nice fusion of both ideas to make a character.
I think the key here is "expressive".
Compared to other games, especially fighting games, the camera in smash is usually very far from the players, which makes seeing their expressions harder, especially the more realistic ones like snake or even the fire emblem staff.
Meanwhile, characters like kong or dedede are very big and cartoony, which makes their exaggerated expresions easier to notice from afar.
42:08 spit balling an idea here with brawlhalla’s float mechanic. Imagine a platform fighter where the specials in the air are different from the specials on the ground. Both sets of specials would have different purposes, but if you wanted to use either one of whenever you want you would have to use a special meter to use those specials. The same would apply for normals on the ground. Kinda like Izanami from BlazBlue
That's a thing platform fighters have been doing more recently. Multiversus is definitely the biggest one that comes to mind.
As waffleman has said. I remembered multiversus doing that. But maybe implememt it better. You csn press a button and it changes the property of it. Say you have a side b on ground and air thats the same. You hold a button snd now its the new one. Might be a lot of work. But its an idea
I honestly think it could work for a Platform Fighter to be much more footsie based. Both Smash 4 and Ultimate just have a flaw where one component of the game is waaaay overcentralized and risk free so its not as fun as it could be. Namely
-Shield (and Grab kinda) for Smash 4
-Safe Aerials for Ultimate
also I think they made a bad decision by buffing the HELL out of Smash 4's low tiers in Ultimate, since a lot of them ended up being super annoying
-Samus
-Pac-Man
-ROB
-Game and Watch
Although Smash balance is a separate issue from slower paced Plat fighters being fun.
I feel like heavy Neutral game is alot more incentivizing than punishment game. At least then it doesn't feel like you don't have to wait for a move to counter everything. Imagine having no grabs, shield breakers, and slow moves.
Also fuck SDs from offstage directional air dodges in Smash Ult. Not fun at all to deal with and wasn't present in Smash 4
Finally someone is saying that not every platform fighters or any fighting games should be with unga Bunga braindead hitting someone with a plus on everything combo starting hay makers
We can learn it was Smash 4 times the charm obviously.
Lol
41:13 Izanami flash backs 😣😣😣
Geez, listening to me stutter and muttering "though" is getting to me.
I need to take some notes/write a script next time on my end. lol
Also are you ever gonna talk about Spiritfall? I thought it was gonna be mid but wow, that game is actually AMAZING and super addicting
Naoto players in BBCF 0:18
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY INASANE BEHAVIOR
1:01:23
LOL, maybe one day you all will learn the context of that.
I wish multiversus could fix that hole
So wait. Brawlhalla has aerials and ground tilts in the air? As in you can either ftilt or fair when you’re in the air?
There I am Gary!
Nuetral 🤔
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your looking for Izanami(Blazblue)
Gappy would say that.
Sounds like someone’s posting cringe!