Economical if you're only picking between the two. Otherwise there are a lot more compelling options for less (well HK is compelling just because it's HK).
@Micah Edwards I bought a straight shoe Timney #681-ST for something like $174 at BDU. That was a couple of years ago though. I see that $199 seems to be the retail on it now.
Totally. I've been watching for years and supported on Patreon and bought a book too. Tons of great knowledge here - especially since Mr. Bartocci actually worked for Colt - how cool is that!
The MP5 has served the US and its allies well for decades and in many places, continues to do so. But we'd be lying to ourselves if we didn't say the MPX is better and more practical. The MPX is superior in modularity, has a simpler manual of arms, is more ergonomic, and superior in logistical support.
I’ll agree that the MPX has a lot of advantages. I’m not sure logistical support is one of them. A deciding factor when I went with the MP5 is I can buy every single part from someone other than HK. Most are made here in the USA, so if I need a part 10 years from now, no problem. Sig has a tendency to do rolling model changes and parts can be very hard to get. To be fair, I really don’t expect a gun to be introduced as a perfected product. Most we use today have seen numerous improvements over years of use. The MPX is doing well for how new it is. I just didn’t want to take the chance that parts would not be around when I need them.
Unfortunately Sigs verified reputation of planned obsolescence is troubling. I have to disagree with the “superior logistics” comment. MP5 will still laying around when only cockroaches are left.
@@colkilgore9973 Its troubling that anything outside of the legacy series they're keeping alive you cant trust them to support you. I wish they made a 516 pistol for a suppressor host. But no.
You use to say that one of the reasons law enforcement transitioned to 5,56mm carbines, was because of less barrier penetration. I saw a couple videos about wall penetration and, the impression I had was that there is not much difference between 9mm and 5.56mm. The one over-penetrating more depends heavily on the ammunition used. I got the impression that the big reason is primally the use of rifles by criminals. (in)Famous incidents like 1986 Miami Dade Shooting, and more importantly, 1997 North Hollywood shoot-out. Both cases got officers greatly under-armed against criminals that were even using body armour.
I think active protection ear pro is a large reason behind the shortened AR15 platform weapons moved into use for a SMG role. Honestly, if you're running no ear pro, I pity the man that has to hear the concussion of a 12.5" barreled 5.56 inside a hallway.
I agree with you 100%. I have owned both but chose to part with the MPX. I still have the SP5. My reasons for keeping it over the MPX were nostalgia and suppression. I only shoot it suppressed with a YHM Sidewinder and tri-lug adapter. Great Video Chris.
Your opening assessment between the over-penetration of 9mm Para as compared to the 5.56mm NATO (M193/75grn Gold Dot) cartridge is one of the prime reasons why the 9mm HK MP5 was removed by the US Government from all Nuclear Weapons Security forces and replaced with the AR-15/M16/M4. As a last resort defense response, the 9mm handgun with HP ammo continues in use for the individual US DOE/DOD contractor/service member. Obviously, the Armalite carbine/rifle variants (IF given only one option) allowed ALL (non-SWAT) Special Weapons security forces with greater immediate counter-response options. The MP5 and 9mm sub-guns are fine for collectors, gun-enthusiasts, and some Counter Terrorist forces but generally no longer tactically competitive compared with the Armalite rifle family. LtCol Y.R. USMC (Ret) ,0302 & former Nuclear Weapons Security Officer.
If I remember correctly, over penetration was the reason given by the British SAS as to why they got rid of the MP5 and replaced it with the LWRC UCIW in 5.56.
frank damsy, IF I remember correctly, you are ‘spot-on’. While I never associated professionally with the SAS, my past association with the Royal Marines and the British Commando units seem to have corroborated your statement. On a related note, once the 5.56 NATO round was fully adopted in Europe up through 9-1-1, the Royal Marines and Commando’s had no problem with the close-in stopping power of the 5.56. They were universally disgruntled with the SA-80 as their Service Rifle. That, however, is a different story and issue. ‘Semper Fi’, Yehoseph
I find it "interesting" that the MPX is modern for it's AR-15 controls, but the MP5 is old because of it's controls when you could argue that they (G3 and AR-15 specifically) were designed within a decade of each other, and over 5/6 decades ago.
The G3 controls were semi obsolete when they came out. I have AR's, G3, FAL, M14/M1A all are guns from the 50's/60's. The AR platform is still viable especially when it becomes ambidexterious can't say the same for the rest of them.
I carried a real deal MP5 back in the day and although it still pulls at my heart strings the AR platform is as world class as it gets. It's no different if you're a car guy, I love my vintage cars but the modern car is so superior in every regard, its not even close. In the end the vintage world is driven by our fond memories and nothing wrong with that what so ever, buy what puts a smile on your face because life is way too short. Great video, thanks.
The Sig MPX is a outstanding weapon. Extremely high quality. An easy to run. However The HK MP5 is second to none. The Sig MPX hasn't stood the test of time. The HK MP5 has. Maybe I'm a little biased here. But I would take The MP5 over The Sig MPX any day of the week. HK is extremely high quality. An well made. HK has some of the best weapon systems in the world. There is a reason that Police Departments an Military's have used them for over 4 decades. Not to say The Sig MPX couldn't be on the same level. As time goes on. But in my opinion. The HK MP5 is a superior weapon.
MPX - Gassy as hell. Piston gets filthy easily. No compatibility between gens, even with mags. Pretty much zero law enforcement or military adoption. Eats third party triggers. MP5 - Proven reliability since 1966. Adopted the world over. Superior suppression. Better stock options. Zero compatibility issues. As far as reloading times, sure the AR platform is quicker. There's no debate. But if I have to carry one of those to the field it's the MP5 any day of the week. Sig will continue to refine the MPX and that's fine, I hope they do. But it's no MP5 at this point.
I own an SP5 and an MPX PCC. The SP5 is great, but the MPX is outstanding. Softer shooting, easier to mount optics, faster to reload, and AR commonality. Coming from an HK fan, I have to hand it to SIG on this one.
I own several real German MP5's and shoot them fa and suppressed. Try that with a MPX or watch Tim's assessment of the MPX being shot suppressed at the Military Arms Channel. The MPX was nothing but a face full of gas when shot with the same ammunition and suppressor as the MP5.
If Sig just decided to go with roller or lever delay instead of a ridiculous gas system that needs barrel removal just to clean, there would be almost no compelling practical reason to choose an MP5 over an MPX.
The MP5 is like Sophia Loren back in her prime. Sure, by today's silicone-injected and liposuctioned standards, she's out of date. But a timeless beauty is forever.
Another great video! “I have to reiterate that I have extremely large hands” after you said that for the third time I laughed out loud and said “we got it!” 😂
Demolition ranch just did a video on this the 10mm went though like 7 blocks of soap while the 556 only went through 3 or 4 it’s a really good ballistics video actually on accident
I agree with your assessment and would love to see a comparison between the MPX and B&T APC 9 Pro. They are both very nice guns. I'd be interested to see your perspective between the two since the military went with the APC. I have the MPX and my best friend has both the APC and MPX. I really like both. I think I prefer the MPX in ergonomics. I do wish it was a little bit lighter, but otherwise really great.
I'm trained on the MP5 and I've never touched an MPX. But I've also handled and qualified on an m4, m16 and sr16. The MPX just seems more familiar to me.
@@sirrisdesign4 Honestly. you see that the MP5 shoots very soft. But the MPX looks like a little less recoil, harder, but less. And technically, like he ssaid, it should be less. The roller systems had always more movement end weight that moves afaik.
Matthew Harris I own the SP5K but never had any experience using the MPX. Ive always been curious about the recoil because ive read and watched from numerous sources that the MPX is suppose to be a tad softer in recoil. Could you describe the recoil impulse a bit further?
double the price of an MPX and comes with double the recoil... why would anyone actually spend that much on something thats direct blowback atleast with the CZ its economical
@@Steve_643 yea thats a much more acceptable price for a direct blowback PCC, people will spend stupid amounts of money on something that really isnt that great if you tell them its from Switzerland is what ive learned XD
I dont think its a matter of 9mm vs 5.56 as the culprit for SMG going by the way side it's more price and availability than anything you average 9mm PCC or SMG is vastly more expensive than than a semi auto or select fire Ar15 plus the latter has all the advantages of the AR aftermarket which makes aquiring parts much easier on the fly than having to be serviced by the manufacture under warranty because SEAL's and SOCOM loved the MP5SD the problem was they found themselves in situation in Iraq and Ahfganistan where their MP5's didnt have sufficient range which is where the MK18 and its precursors came in.
300blk is a smart solution providing a good CQC round that’s suppressed and powerful up close. Commercially speaking barring this crazy uptick was good.
Hey, great video as always. I noticed you said it's always preferable to a direct blowback option, but was wondering why the B&T APC9 was recently chosen over the SIG, since the sig is less expensive and not direct blowback, and more tested / more similar to the AR platform. Thoughts on the APC family in general?
Pretty sure its because the copper head, the sig entrant, wasn't all that great of a platform. It was heavier and more awkward with the 3.5 inch barrel. If sig went with the mpx-k, it would've been more of a even fight.
I will say after the MAC's gauntlet test with water the MPX is a no-go. The fact that the system can be hydro-locked with merely 1 tablespoon is crazy and it was repeatable.
Chris, I believe it all comes down to this training I have fired all three the Colt was the worse especially on full auto not a good weapon compared to the MP5 or Sig MPX or Uzi . As for me I actually prefer the MP-5 I trained and trained with it in the MEUSOC back in the 1990s. As for me to be honest do you really need a red dot at CQB distances if anything I usually fire faster without an optic if I need a light I can get a Surefire handguard light and almost not add any weight. As for farther distances use an M4 carbine but for 50 yds or less MP5 does get the job done but that is my opinion and its proven go to war gun the Sig MPX hasn't been tested in those types of environments and abuse of the shooter.
Il take the MP5 over the MPX all day long. I actually prefer the HK charging handle over the MPX AR inspired charging handle. MP5 has a much better barrel also. MPX will never be able to de thrown the king of subs which is the MP5.
@@SmallArmsSolutions the mp5 has been tested and used in the military to fight by the thousands. For decades its been a choice selected by many including navy seals. The build quality, accuracy and functionality beats the mpx in every aspect. The mpx is a civilian firearm and fun gun. Extremely finicky when suppressed and overly gas even when upgrading gas block. The argument that the air force uses it to transport the president is redundant. Theres no track record that its ever been used in that scenario. Its literally the little brother when compared to the MP5. The mpx requires modifications to ones liking and in hopes that it runs smooth(after thousands spent). The mpx is like a high end honda, it wants to be nice, until an actual nice car rolls around. Mp5 out the box is a sewing machine.
Watch the MAC RUclips channel’s video where he runs the MPX through the gauntlet!!! Some surprising results it runs like a top but it has 2 malfunctions every time it got water in the gas system!!!!
Lots of government officials still use the MP5 in the United States I don't know any government official that uses an MPX other than local law enforcement personnel
The ergonomic of the sig mpx is great and using the fundamentals of the AR platform is perfect for American contracts... but the MP5 roller delayed blow back is way more reliable and is much softer shooting and less gassy surpressed... but I love both
Seems like the CMMG Banshee with 9mm converted AR mags would be a better choice. You get all the advantages of a delayed blowback system with all the ergonomics of a modern AR system.
Those converted AR mags are a bit iffy. You're better off just using a colt mag lower. Now I know there's a company making a lower that takes Scorpion Evo mags and I'd love to try that out with a banshee upper.
I ordered the CMMG 99D517A "Barrel and BCG Kit, 8"" from them on August 28th. On Sept 5th they updated my order to let me know that it would be on backorder 10 or more weeks. I'm hoping to get this AR Pistol up in running by Thanksgiving. It might end up being a nice surprise for Christmas though.
They are both great firearms. The MPX K is so compact you can carry it in almost any bag and it pairs great with an EDC 9mm handgun so you only have one caliber to worry about in your car. If only they had a handgun that worked with the same mags. I know glock guys and I’m one of them, will say that’s already an option but 33rd glock mags look ugly in PCC weapons and they are all mostly direct blowback AR platforms outside of the CMMG banshee. The MP5 is just a classic that is a great shooting pistol and it’s a must have for any gun enthusiasts or collectors. 50 year old platform and it’s still great!! I know 300 blackout is a superior choice these days and I love it as well but 9mm will get the job done in most situations that you will meet in an everyday carry situation and it’s cheaper. If it’s a SHTF situation then you would obviously want something that hits harder and defeats soft armor. Great review and just buy them both guys!!!
@ The MPX is a short stroke gas piston SMG, not a blowback. The CMMG is a delayed blowback gun. They choose to maintain the AR's good ergonomics and some parts compatability, why would they handicap the gun by gimping it with inferior ergos like an HK lol
@ The only thing the MPX really takes from the AR are the controls and layout. I mean, not a lot of small arms design lately is terribly unique or groundbreaking. If anything, it's kind of a good thing the MPX's design isn't radically different or complex, but rather is designed on already tried and true design points and features. Being functional doesn't *need* to be interesting or fun. I'd also hate to break it to you, but the MP5 isn't known for being the most reliable submachine gun system you can get because it doesn't *need* to be as an SMG, nor does it have the best controls and ergos because it doesn't need to deviate from its legacy in the G3 at its time. SMGs and PCCs don't particularly need to be very impressive in reliability, just being consistent and steadfast is enough. If you don't like the MPX, that's completely fair but it's a pretty compelling package on its own imo Also, mind that the MP5 originally didn't have a track record or particularly successful until 8-9 years after it was adopted by the German Polizei. The only way you're getting "track record" is in seeing it get purchased then tried on the field. That's saying we should never move forward in weapons development because new weapons are untested...isn't that unreasonable? In any case, the MPX at least sees adoption and enjoys being well liked by a fairly decent amount of units, countries, and even special forces commands like US JSOC in less than half time than the MP5 took. That's pretty good.
My MPX "8 is the nicest shooting firearm I own relative to what it is. Incredibly soft shooting + AR Egonomics + AR levels of modularity, vs the MP5 which is just as soft shooting I find but falls behind in the other areas, also the trigger is worse I find. Would take my MPX into battle before my MP5, but I'd trust my life to either
a 10MM pistol round would be a good option for a light, shoulderable, short barreled weapon. the 9MM SMGs are underpowered, and the 5.56 short barreled weapons have way too much muzzle blast.
Hope this doesn’t turns into a RUclips fight, I’ve had them in past and I know gun enthusiasts can lose their cool over really, silly subjects. My point, if was ok to interject a small opinion on the matter. Well, it looks to me, an outdated weapon system that cost just over thousand dollars.
I have a Super Duty 11.5 upper on my LMT MARS-L pistol lower. I’ve been a fan of the ergonomics and how well it shoots suppressed (not too much gas in face). My experience is still somewhat limited due to the ammo shortage but it’s my favorite right now. Consider what you get on paper with this upper, a Geissele M-Lok rail keyed into the receiver for anti-rotation. Geissele’s in-house manufactured Cold Hammer Forged chrome lined barrel which is lapped before and after chrome lining. The Geissele ambi airborne charging handle which is also my current favorite for comfort. Then you have the Geissele reliability enhanced BCG with a forged bolt which is claimed to increase bolt life by a factor of 5. That all sounded good to me and it’s worked really well for me so far.
I have an MP5, MPX and a B&T APC9 PRO and I have to say the B&T is the best out of the 3. The only issue I have with the B&T is the magazine for the 9mm needs metal reinforcements.
Both are very nice, but I think both are overpriced FOR civilian use. I love the MP5 though, but you can get the PTR clones with modern features like rail and they're cheaper than both the HK MP5s and the MPX. The best bang for you buck for a civilian is the CZ Scorpion imo, from what I've seen. That's not to say what I'm saying is absolute, just the conclusion I've come to. I'd never bother paying more just to have a name brand HK MP5.
I just wonder how long it will be before the BATFE rules the braces are illegal (again) and not allow any to be grandfathered in. I sure hope I'm wrong.
I own both. The sig is way better but just like you said the sp5 is for auntenticity especially with a can is something you have to own. Just buy both if you can. If you have to buy one for function buy the mpx. If you have to buy one for mark up or history buy the mp5/sp5! You cant go wrong with these 2!
Small Arms Solutions dropping some hard to swallow truth pills. Basically, get the MPX for use with optics, accessories, ergonomics/ease of use/muscle memory, get an SP5 for nostalgia...
never had issue with MP5 or G3 fire selector. I do even prefer it over AR platform. Mag release works fine too if you are using the thumb of the hand you are using to pull the mag out. yes the design is old but in many ways its still the finest SMG ever designed.
The G3/MP5/HK33/etc fire selector was designed to be actuated while transitioning to and from the shoulder - from a low ready/slung patrol carry - before a proper shouldered firing grip was established. The mag release button was tertiary- a backup to the lever that allows the operator to rip a mag out in the case of a malfunction or otherwise stuck magazine. All things considered the HK roller guns were still significantly more ergonomic than most other small arms of the time
Which B&T? The MP9 is incredible, but their APC and GHM series just feels like an very well made and put together Yugo. $2500 direct blowbacks, not my forte.
At 27:47ish you were talking about when you went to India for colt, and the Indian commandos were complaining about the colt smg mags being hard to load but you gave them a *BLANK* and then they went with the colt... a what? I couldn't hear you... sound like you said blue lip or something? Also, hard to load the mags with bullets, or hard to load the loaded magazine into the gun... for mine i have to slam the mags in....
(SmallArmsSolutions) you should try out the Lancer carbon fiber handguard its worth the money, when wearing gloves it grips 100x better/it's sticky + its a bit lighter. Also if youre interested (Blackwoodusa) makes really nice wood handstops + grips. Gives it a unique look having some wood on the mpx. Great video man,MPX all the way. Sig's Cross Rifle is my next purchase.
Great video as always. The MPX is an interesting gun, but somewhat of an evolutionary dead end I think. The 8" flagship MPX model that you are shooting and that directly competes with the MP5 is already out of production. The caliber conversion kits for 40 S&W and 357 Sig never materialized. There are already two generations of mags, and aftermarket companies don't seem interested in making mags for the MPX. The bolt carrier velocity of the MPX is such that regular AR15 trigger groups aren't durable enough to withstand it. MPX needs a large rubber bumper in the rear of the frame to keep it from damaging itself due to this as well. The gas piston system of the MPX will not tolerate dirty and/or lead bullet ammunition and has gas rings that wear. The MPX does not come with the 3 lug mount. The charge handle on the MPX is proprietary, floppy, and tends to scar the lower in use. MPX gasses you if you run a suppressor. Hand guards are proprietary, and oddly tall to accommodate the gas system, as is the whole upper in comparison to the small lower, so the gun balances strangely. The paddle mag release on the MP5 eliminates the need for the complicated ambi buttons on the MPX. The MP5 with an ambi trigger pack is a mechanically simpler and more robust gun (trigger packs are the same used in a G3 battle rifle), I don't think that can be denied. To this day the MPA2 has NO BUFFER in the stock as the system is so well balanced it doesn't need one. Its manual of arms is different than an AR15, that doesn't change the fact it is still the most controllable sub machine gun made, bar none. If you shoot semi auto only, and mostly for fun, the MPX has a lot of amenities that you'll probably love. However, just a few weeks ago the MP5A3 was seen in the hands of the secret service outside the White house when there was a deranged man nearby that police eventually shot, so the secret service hasn't written the MP5 off as obsolete just yet, and neither has much of the rest of the world.
I disagree. It has lots of room to evoke. It can have conversion kits yet there has been no demand. Easily changed barrels. Gas rings which are the same as an M16 which many external pistons use. Much better trigger than MP5. Easy to work on without special tools and fixtures. Much can be done if the need arise.
I feel like an MP5 vs MPX comparison is similar to an AK vs AR comparison, you can modernize an MP5 and AK but it pales in comparison to to the modernization of the AR platform and the MPX is just a modernized incarnation of the AR, comparably the AK12 platform is comparable to like the MCX from Sig in its modernization when you think about it.
The MPX has ease of handling in many ways is better than the MP5, however its longevity is questionable, all of the pins and springs are sub standard and "can" break or fall out after a few thousand rounds. I've sold off both of my gen 1 and gen 2 guns because of those issues, I never had any problems with the MPX I used at the SIG academy but my personal guns didn't go the distance. The MCX 556 variants have similar and even more problems. That side folding stock it a crap design as well. The screw holding it together will come loose eventually, SIG failed to install a steel heli-coil insert where it is very much needed. Firing pin springs are a joke and break after a few thousand rounds, hammer springs are the typical AR-15 springs and they break too. Standard AR15 springs should last a long time but SIG does not, I will say the magazines are great and expensive. Good luck with you MPX series guns because mine sucked. SIG should stick with pistols.
Nearly $3000? Last released price I saw was $3500, and they went up from there. You’re looking $4000 plus, and in the current market conditions, I’ve seen them on major online retailers for $5,000.
i traded my mk 18 pistol with law folder all stock for fde mpx, matching eotech and 10 mags in the box. i loved the mk18 but like it was front heavy and though a historic gun i don't miss it. i collect and shoot and after running it a few times in local 3 gun the balance wasn't for me. i love shooting the sig and it will also be an iconic gun but one i love to shoot as often as i can. the real rarity is ammo. lol great review and p.s i will probably come across an mp 5 soon also lol (if i could stop buying import ak"s ) lmao.
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The MPX is the economical choice. The MP5 is the one you want deep down in your soul.
Economical if you're only picking between the two. Otherwise there are a lot more compelling options for less (well HK is compelling just because it's HK).
I ended up building my MP5 from a parts kit, got it cheaper then a MPX
@Micah Edwards I bought a straight shoe Timney #681-ST for something like $174 at BDU. That was a couple of years ago though. I see that $199 seems to be the retail on it now.
Excellent answer
economical? I don't think so.
This channel is HANDS DOWN the most underrated 2A channel on RUclips. It's not even funny.
Thanks for the awesome content!
Absolutely agree!
Big facts bud
So true
Totally. I've been watching for years and supported on Patreon and bought a book too. Tons of great knowledge here - especially since Mr. Bartocci actually worked for Colt - how cool is that!
The MP5 has served the US and its allies well for decades and in many places, continues to do so. But we'd be lying to ourselves if we didn't say the MPX is better and more practical. The MPX is superior in modularity, has a simpler manual of arms, is more ergonomic, and superior in logistical support.
I’ll agree that the MPX has a lot of advantages. I’m not sure logistical support is one of them.
A deciding factor when I went with the MP5 is I can buy every single part from someone other than HK. Most are made here in the USA, so if I need a part 10 years from now, no problem. Sig has a tendency to do rolling model changes and parts can be very hard to get.
To be fair, I really don’t expect a gun to be introduced as a perfected product. Most we use today have seen numerous improvements over years of use. The MPX is doing well for how new it is. I just didn’t want to take the chance that parts would not be around when I need them.
*slaps bolt home and laughs*
@@cletustheslackjawedyokel6083 in the context of nations you get the parts you need from sig.
Unfortunately Sigs verified reputation of planned obsolescence is troubling. I have to disagree with the “superior logistics” comment. MP5 will still laying around when only cockroaches are left.
@@colkilgore9973 Its troubling that anything outside of the legacy series they're keeping alive you cant trust them to support you. I wish they made a 516 pistol for a suppressor host. But no.
You use to say that one of the reasons law enforcement transitioned to 5,56mm carbines, was because of less barrier penetration. I saw a couple videos about wall penetration and, the impression I had was that there is not much difference between 9mm and 5.56mm. The one over-penetrating more depends heavily on the ammunition used.
I got the impression that the big reason is primally the use of rifles by criminals. (in)Famous incidents like 1986 Miami Dade Shooting, and more importantly, 1997 North Hollywood shoot-out. Both cases got officers greatly under-armed against criminals that were even using body armour.
I think active protection ear pro is a large reason behind the shortened AR15 platform weapons moved into use for a SMG role. Honestly, if you're running no ear pro, I pity the man that has to hear the concussion of a 12.5" barreled 5.56 inside a hallway.
I agree with you 100%. I have owned both but chose to part with the MPX. I still have the SP5. My reasons for keeping it over the MPX were nostalgia and suppression. I only shoot it suppressed with a YHM Sidewinder and tri-lug adapter. Great Video Chris.
The old submachine guns never die, they just fade away.
Likely the most polished comparison video i have seen. Just excellent. Thank you.
Your opening assessment between the over-penetration of 9mm Para as compared to the 5.56mm NATO (M193/75grn Gold Dot) cartridge is one of the prime reasons why the 9mm HK MP5 was removed by the US Government from all Nuclear Weapons Security forces and replaced with the AR-15/M16/M4. As a last resort defense response, the 9mm handgun with HP ammo continues in use for the individual US DOE/DOD contractor/service member. Obviously, the Armalite carbine/rifle variants (IF given only one option) allowed ALL (non-SWAT) Special Weapons security forces with greater immediate counter-response options. The MP5 and 9mm sub-guns are fine for collectors, gun-enthusiasts, and some Counter Terrorist forces but generally no longer tactically competitive compared with the Armalite rifle family. LtCol Y.R. USMC (Ret) ,0302 & former Nuclear Weapons Security Officer.
If I remember correctly, over penetration was the reason given by the British SAS as to why they got rid of the MP5 and replaced it with the LWRC UCIW in 5.56.
frank damsy, IF I remember correctly, you are ‘spot-on’.
While I never associated professionally with the SAS, my past association with the Royal Marines and the British Commando units seem to have corroborated your statement.
On a related note, once the 5.56 NATO round was fully adopted in Europe up through 9-1-1, the Royal Marines and Commando’s had no problem with the close-in stopping power of the 5.56. They were universally disgruntled with the SA-80 as their Service Rifle. That, however, is a different story and issue. ‘Semper Fi’, Yehoseph
Great content Chris, this is a comparison I’ve been interested in. Heather cracked me up yesterday with her short video!
I find it "interesting" that the MPX is modern for it's AR-15 controls, but the MP5 is old because of it's controls when you could argue that they (G3 and AR-15 specifically) were designed within a decade of each other, and over 5/6 decades ago.
But to be fair, AR-15 controls have held up a lot longer than the G3.
The G3 controls were semi obsolete when they came out. I have AR's, G3, FAL, M14/M1A all are guns from the 50's/60's. The AR platform is still viable especially when it becomes ambidexterious can't say the same for the rest of them.
I carried a real deal MP5 back in the day and although it still pulls at my heart strings the AR platform is as world class as it gets. It's no different if you're a car guy, I love my vintage cars but the modern car is so superior in every regard, its not even close. In the end the vintage world is driven by our fond memories and nothing wrong with that what so ever, buy what puts a smile on your face because life is way too short. Great video, thanks.
I'd really like to see an in depth trial between the MPX and the CMMG radial delayed system.
The Sig MPX is a outstanding weapon. Extremely high quality. An easy to run. However The HK MP5 is second to none. The Sig MPX hasn't stood the test of time. The HK MP5 has. Maybe I'm a little biased here. But I would take The MP5 over The Sig MPX any day of the week. HK is extremely high quality. An well made. HK has some of the best weapon systems in the world. There is a reason that Police Departments an Military's have used them for over 4 decades. Not to say The Sig MPX couldn't be on the same level. As time goes on. But in my opinion. The HK MP5 is a superior weapon.
I'm sure the mpx will age just as well sig has a good pedigree with making small arms for military purposes
Great job on this one Heather & Chris.
MPX - Gassy as hell. Piston gets filthy easily. No compatibility between gens, even with mags. Pretty much zero law enforcement or military adoption. Eats third party triggers.
MP5 - Proven reliability since 1966. Adopted the world over. Superior suppression. Better stock options. Zero compatibility issues.
As far as reloading times, sure the AR platform is quicker. There's no debate. But if I have to carry one of those to the field it's the MP5 any day of the week. Sig will continue to refine the MPX and that's fine, I hope they do. But it's no MP5 at this point.
I own an SP5 and an MPX PCC. The SP5 is great, but the MPX is outstanding. Softer shooting, easier to mount optics, faster to reload, and AR commonality. Coming from an HK fan, I have to hand it to SIG on this one.
I bet you never shoot suppressed
I own several real German MP5's and shoot them fa and suppressed. Try that with a MPX or watch Tim's assessment of the MPX being shot suppressed at the Military Arms Channel. The MPX was nothing but a face full of gas when shot with the same ammunition and suppressor as the MP5.
Nah. Mp5 is still king.
MP5 & MPX is a very good comparison. I really enjoyed this video! Thanks and keep um coming!
Been waiting for this one
James reeves from TFB TV did his comparison to MP5 vs MPX
@@MISOFdsraceteam when
@@me2ontube ages ago. just type it down on the search and it should pop up
If Sig just decided to go with roller or lever delay instead of a ridiculous gas system that needs barrel removal just to clean, there would be almost no compelling practical reason to choose an MP5 over an MPX.
@@JungleLoveOeOeO As opposed to the 0 minutes of barrel removal required for cleaning with literally every other gun in its class?
I’d choose the Sig MPX/K in FDE
The HK is old school cool. But it's like trying to compare a 1960s corvette to a new C8. Performance is much better today.
Best analogy I have seen on these two
Performance? The MPX cant do anything the MP5 cant.
The MP5 took out a lot of Goa'uld, too.
The MP5 is like Sophia Loren back in her prime. Sure, by today's silicone-injected and liposuctioned standards, she's out of date. But a timeless beauty is forever.
Marlene Deitrich
suzettespencer Definitely!
Angela Merkel
@@chriscool1680 lol
Great analogy, I still prefer the classics 👍
Thanks for this comparison. Very thorough and informative.
MP5 is like Micheal Jordan. Never an equal.
Yeah but neither one did much for BLM like LeBron did (sarcasm please)
@Fui Gebhardt1 Couldn't have said it better
That’s true ☝️
Fui Gebhardt1 No he wasn’t
Like anyone gives a fk about basketball
I think u were spot on and logical a good unbiased review... 👍🏼👍🏼
Great video and great comparison. You state your reasons for both clearly and after watching i feel educated a bit more on their differences
Here in Taiwan our swat teams pick MPXs to replace MP5s recently.
Another great video! “I have to reiterate that I have extremely large hands” after you said that for the third time I laughed out loud and said “we got it!” 😂
Demolition ranch just did a video on this the 10mm went though like 7 blocks of soap while the 556 only went through 3 or 4 it’s a really good ballistics video actually on accident
Why am I just now finding this channel? Great video, just subscribed and I look forward to more!
I agree with your assessment and would love to see a comparison between the MPX and B&T APC 9 Pro. They are both very nice guns. I'd be interested to see your perspective between the two since the military went with the APC. I have the MPX and my best friend has both the APC and MPX. I really like both. I think I prefer the MPX in ergonomics. I do wish it was a little bit lighter, but otherwise really great.
I'm trained on the MP5 and I've never touched an MPX. But I've also handled and qualified on an m4, m16 and sr16. The MPX just seems more familiar to me.
Gee, a complete mystery
Mp5. With a small amount of training the manual of arms becomes second nature and just as fast as the sig
Plus the irons are top notch. The gun is a tank and gives confidence. From all the pcc i shot i would take the mp5 every time.
Always be on team MP5. Roller delay is too good.
MPX is wayy softer shooting
@@moglyz9911 No it's not. I own both and the MPX isn't as soft. It's close, but it's not as soft.
Matthew Harris nah
@@sirrisdesign4 Honestly. you see that the MP5 shoots very soft. But the MPX looks like a little less recoil, harder, but less. And technically, like he ssaid, it should be less. The roller systems had always more movement end weight that moves afaik.
Matthew Harris I own the SP5K but never had any experience using the MPX. Ive always been curious about the recoil because ive read and watched from numerous sources that the MPX is suppose to be a tad softer in recoil. Could you describe the recoil impulse a bit further?
im in cypress too love the videos keep up the good work just bought the mp5 gun my first carbine style 22
“Probably the finest submachine gun that’s available today.”
_B&T has entered the chat._
double the price of an MPX and comes with double the recoil... why would anyone actually spend that much on something thats direct blowback atleast with the CZ its economical
You can get a Stribog A1 for a 3rd of the price of the B&T AP9 and its same gun!!!!
@@Steve_643 yea thats a much more acceptable price for a direct blowback PCC, people will spend stupid amounts of money on something that really isnt that great if you tell them its from Switzerland is what ive learned XD
Love my 8" CMMG Mk9, and yes I want an MP-5!
I dont think its a matter of 9mm vs 5.56 as the culprit for SMG going by the way side it's more price and availability than anything you average 9mm PCC or SMG is vastly more expensive than than a semi auto or select fire Ar15 plus the latter has all the advantages of the AR aftermarket which makes aquiring parts much easier on the fly than having to be serviced by the manufacture under warranty because SEAL's and SOCOM loved the MP5SD the problem was they found themselves in situation in Iraq and Ahfganistan where their MP5's didnt have sufficient range which is where the MK18 and its precursors came in.
Both are great guns but MP5 stood the test of time. The classic MP5 with Full-Auto would be my pick anytime of the day.
300blk is a smart solution providing a good CQC round that’s suppressed and powerful up close. Commercially speaking barring this crazy uptick was good.
Hey, great video as always. I noticed you said it's always preferable to a direct blowback option, but was wondering why the B&T APC9 was recently chosen over the SIG, since the sig is less expensive and not direct blowback, and more tested / more similar to the AR platform. Thoughts on the APC family in general?
Pretty sure its because the copper head, the sig entrant, wasn't all that great of a platform. It was heavier and more awkward with the 3.5 inch barrel. If sig went with the mpx-k, it would've been more of a even fight.
@@godwinjoy9730 Interesting, thanks
Compared to CMMG Banshee RDB (Radial Delayed Blowback) 9mm?
What about B&T apc9k that us army bought
Joe Herr this was MP5 vs MPX. I don’t think the B&T is in this league.
SmallArmsSolutions in your opinion, b&t apc is in lower league?
I will say after the MAC's gauntlet test with water the MPX is a no-go. The fact that the system can be hydro-locked with merely 1 tablespoon is crazy and it was repeatable.
Can't wait for that video to be released for non-Patreon viewers. The reactions are going to be insane
Sig corrected that
Team MP5.
On paper the Sig. In practice there is no way I would trust a Sig product over an HK given Sig’s terrible QC
I trust my mpx 100%
Chris,
I believe it all comes down to this training I have fired all three the Colt was the worse especially on full auto not a good weapon compared to the MP5 or Sig MPX or Uzi . As for me I actually prefer the MP-5 I trained and trained with it in the MEUSOC back in the 1990s. As for me to be honest do you really need a red dot at CQB distances if anything I usually fire faster without an optic if I need a light I can get a Surefire handguard light and almost not add any weight. As for farther distances use an M4 carbine but for 50 yds or less MP5 does get the job done but that is my opinion and its proven go to war gun the Sig MPX hasn't been tested in those types of environments and abuse of the shooter.
Il take the MP5 over the MPX all day long. I actually prefer the HK charging handle over the MPX AR inspired charging handle. MP5 has a much better barrel also. MPX will never be able to de thrown the king of subs which is the MP5.
MPX owner here. The MP5 is much more reliable and longer lasting than the mpx ever will be.
Based on what??
@@SmallArmsSolutions the mp5 has been tested and used in the military to fight by the thousands. For decades its been a choice selected by many including navy seals. The build quality, accuracy and functionality beats the mpx in every aspect. The mpx is a civilian firearm and fun gun. Extremely finicky when suppressed and overly gas even when upgrading gas block. The argument that the air force uses it to transport the president is redundant. Theres no track record that its ever been used in that scenario. Its literally the little brother when compared to the MP5. The mpx requires modifications to ones liking and in hopes that it runs smooth(after thousands spent). The mpx is like a high end honda, it wants to be nice, until an actual nice car rolls around. Mp5 out the box is a sewing machine.
@@StylesBlenderBoom
The answer is always mp5
Watch the MAC RUclips channel’s video where he runs the MPX through the gauntlet!!! Some surprising results it runs like a top but it has 2 malfunctions every time it got water in the gas system!!!!
The MP5 is still in service with various security forces /services in Europe.
Lots of government officials still use the MP5 in the United States I don't know any government official that uses an MPX other than local law enforcement personnel
The ergonomic of the sig mpx is great and using the fundamentals of the AR platform is perfect for American contracts... but the MP5 roller delayed blow back is way more reliable and is much softer shooting and less gassy surpressed... but I love both
Less gassy but it's not more reliable or softer shooting. The mpx is the softest shooting sub gun available.
Seems like the CMMG Banshee with 9mm converted AR mags would be a better choice. You get all the advantages of a delayed blowback system with all the ergonomics of a modern AR system.
Those converted AR mags are a bit iffy. You're better off just using a colt mag lower. Now I know there's a company making a lower that takes Scorpion Evo mags and I'd love to try that out with a banshee upper.
I ordered the CMMG 99D517A "Barrel and BCG Kit, 8"" from them on August 28th. On Sept 5th they updated my order to let me know that it would be on backorder 10 or more weeks. I'm hoping to get this AR Pistol up in running by Thanksgiving. It might end up being a nice surprise for Christmas though.
They are both great firearms. The MPX K is so compact you can carry it in almost any bag and it pairs great with an EDC 9mm handgun so you only have one caliber to worry about in your car. If only they had a handgun that worked with the same mags. I know glock guys and I’m one of them, will say that’s already an option but 33rd glock mags look ugly in PCC weapons and they are all mostly direct blowback AR platforms outside of the CMMG banshee. The MP5 is just a classic that is a great shooting pistol and it’s a must have for any gun enthusiasts or collectors. 50 year old platform and it’s still great!! I know 300 blackout is a superior choice these days and I love it as well but 9mm will get the job done in most situations that you will meet in an everyday carry situation and it’s cheaper. If it’s a SHTF situation then you would obviously want something that hits harder and defeats soft armor. Great review and just buy them both guys!!!
I own both and as sexy as the MP5 is The MPX is superior in all ways.
In what ways?
Thank you for brining reason to this comment section. “ BUT mp5... itS In MuH MoViEs”.
@@kerbyfab for the reasons listed in the video
@ The MPX is a short stroke gas piston SMG, not a blowback. The CMMG is a delayed blowback gun. They choose to maintain the AR's good ergonomics and some parts compatability, why would they handicap the gun by gimping it with inferior ergos like an HK lol
@ The only thing the MPX really takes from the AR are the controls and layout. I mean, not a lot of small arms design lately is terribly unique or groundbreaking. If anything, it's kind of a good thing the MPX's design isn't radically different or complex, but rather is designed on already tried and true design points and features. Being functional doesn't *need* to be interesting or fun. I'd also hate to break it to you, but the MP5 isn't known for being the most reliable submachine gun system you can get because it doesn't *need* to be as an SMG, nor does it have the best controls and ergos because it doesn't need to deviate from its legacy in the G3 at its time. SMGs and PCCs don't particularly need to be very impressive in reliability, just being consistent and steadfast is enough. If you don't like the MPX, that's completely fair but it's a pretty compelling package on its own imo
Also, mind that the MP5 originally didn't have a track record or particularly successful until 8-9 years after it was adopted by the German Polizei. The only way you're getting "track record" is in seeing it get purchased then tried on the field. That's saying we should never move forward in weapons development because new weapons are untested...isn't that unreasonable?
In any case, the MPX at least sees adoption and enjoys being well liked by a fairly decent amount of units, countries, and even special forces commands like US JSOC in less than half time than the MP5 took. That's pretty good.
My MPX "8 is the nicest shooting firearm I own relative to what it is. Incredibly soft shooting + AR Egonomics + AR levels of modularity, vs the MP5 which is just as soft shooting I find but falls behind in the other areas, also the trigger is worse I find. Would take my MPX into battle before my MP5, but I'd trust my life to either
Now throw the B&T APC9 pro in the comparison mix pls.
a 10MM pistol round would be a good option for a light, shoulderable, short barreled weapon. the 9MM SMGs are underpowered, and the 5.56 short barreled weapons have way too much muzzle blast.
M4 5.56>than any pistol caliber PDW. 10.5 m4 is vastly superior in every way to the mp5. Cost, upgrades, spare parts, and ergonomics.
Brent Cazeras what a way to bring up something that has nothing to do with the topic.
H K Oh, sorry... That’s just my two cents, and he did preface a small argument in the beginning. Forgive me.
Hope this doesn’t turns into a RUclips fight, I’ve had them in past and I know gun enthusiasts can lose their cool over really, silly subjects. My point, if was ok to interject a small opinion on the matter. Well, it looks to me, an outdated weapon system that cost just over thousand dollars.
This HK fanboy..... absolutely respects your decision on the best current smg. Thanks for the video.
MPX Copperhead does not come with threaded barrel, and it's a $400 upgrade if you can find one!!
You've changed my mind on my next big purchase
Check out the Swiss militia. Every citizen is provided a Sig weapon and training. Every building has a bunker.
The reduction in recoil between the gas system of the MPX vs the roller delay system on the MP5 is incredibly obvious
I have both so no hard feelings here, great video as always.
I'll take the HK, thanks.
I own both and the SIG is superior......
@@davidmandell9909 LOL
On a (slightly different) subject, I am looking at the Geissele "super duty" 5.56 rifle, do you think it is one of the better M16 makes? Thanks.
I have a Super Duty 11.5 upper on my LMT MARS-L pistol lower. I’ve been a fan of the ergonomics and how well it shoots suppressed (not too much gas in face). My experience is still somewhat limited due to the ammo shortage but it’s my favorite right now.
Consider what you get on paper with this upper, a Geissele M-Lok rail keyed into the receiver for anti-rotation. Geissele’s in-house manufactured Cold Hammer Forged chrome lined barrel which is lapped before and after chrome lining. The Geissele ambi airborne charging handle which is also my current favorite for comfort. Then you have the Geissele reliability enhanced BCG with a forged bolt which is claimed to increase bolt life by a factor of 5.
That all sounded good to me and it’s worked really well for me so far.
Donald Dalla Valle there is one available, expect a video in the near future
@@Lynyrd_Evnyrd Thanks for the detailed reply.
I have an MP5, MPX and a B&T APC9 PRO and I have to say the B&T is the best out of the 3. The only issue I have with the B&T is the magazine for the 9mm needs metal reinforcements.
Why is the b&t the best?
IMO the recoil impulse is better and it suppresses better that the Sig. I also think the Sig feels cheap compared to the other two.
Both are very nice, but I think both are overpriced FOR civilian use. I love the MP5 though, but you can get the PTR clones with modern features like rail and they're cheaper than both the HK MP5s and the MPX. The best bang for you buck for a civilian is the CZ Scorpion imo, from what I've seen. That's not to say what I'm saying is absolute, just the conclusion I've come to. I'd never bother paying more just to have a name brand HK MP5.
APC and MP5, no desire for the MPX.
I just wonder how long it will be before the BATFE rules the braces are illegal (again) and not allow any to be grandfathered in. I sure hope I'm wrong.
I own both. The sig is way better but just like you said the sp5 is for auntenticity especially with a can is something you have to own. Just buy both if you can. If you have to buy one for function buy the mpx. If you have to buy one for mark up or history buy the mp5/sp5! You cant go wrong with these 2!
Do the Hk mark 23 vs the fnx 45 tactical.
GUNSMITH44 No reason. We all know the MK23 is most tested, most rugged, most reliable pistol ever created.
I would have to choose..... the Honeybadger SD.
But... if I had to choose I would love a mp5.. I'm from the N64 Goldeneye generation
I've seen too many MPXs just absolutely eat shit. Sig is just disappointing these days despite having neat designs.
LOL
1. SIG MPX 9mm
2. H&K MP5 9mm
3. Colt SMG 9mm
What's happening with the new ATF letters saying all SBR pistols are now considered a SBR rifle ?
That was referring to a specific type of brace on the Honey badger. Not all braces
B&T GHM or APC9
Small Arms Solutions dropping some hard to swallow truth pills. Basically, get the MPX for use with optics, accessories, ergonomics/ease of use/muscle memory, get an SP5 for nostalgia...
never had issue with MP5 or G3 fire selector. I do even prefer it over AR platform. Mag release works fine too if you are using the thumb of the hand you are using to pull the mag out. yes the design is old but in many ways its still the finest SMG ever designed.
240pixel in its day I agree. Outdated by today’s standards.
The G3/MP5/HK33/etc fire selector was designed to be actuated while transitioning to and from the shoulder - from a low ready/slung patrol carry - before a proper shouldered firing grip was established. The mag release button was tertiary- a backup to the lever that allows the operator to rip a mag out in the case of a malfunction or otherwise stuck magazine.
All things considered the HK roller guns were still significantly more ergonomic than most other small arms of the time
I'm confused about tge firearm not having a memory I don't think I understand however I've only shot semi auto rifles and pistols
The battle for second place. B&T FTW
Which B&T? The MP9 is incredible, but their APC and GHM series just feels like an very well made and put together Yugo. $2500 direct blowbacks, not my forte.
At 27:47ish you were talking about when you went to India for colt, and the Indian commandos were complaining about the colt smg mags being hard to load but you gave them a *BLANK* and then they went with the colt... a what? I couldn't hear you... sound like you said blue lip or something? Also, hard to load the mags with bullets, or hard to load the loaded magazine into the gun... for mine i have to slam the mags in....
We (Colt) had to provide a Maglula UpLula loading device for the magazines.
(SmallArmsSolutions) you should try out the Lancer carbon fiber handguard its worth the money, when wearing gloves it grips 100x better/it's sticky + its a bit lighter.
Also if youre interested (Blackwoodusa) makes really nice wood handstops + grips. Gives it a unique look having some wood on the mpx.
Great video man,MPX all the way.
Sig's Cross Rifle is my next purchase.
great video ! thanks
Great video as always. The MPX is an interesting gun, but somewhat of an evolutionary dead end I think. The 8" flagship MPX model that you are shooting and that directly competes with the MP5 is already out of production. The caliber conversion kits for 40 S&W and 357 Sig never materialized. There are already two generations of mags, and aftermarket companies don't seem interested in making mags for the MPX. The bolt carrier velocity of the MPX is such that regular AR15 trigger groups aren't durable enough to withstand it. MPX needs a large rubber bumper in the rear of the frame to keep it from damaging itself due to this as well. The gas piston system of the MPX will not tolerate dirty and/or lead bullet ammunition and has gas rings that wear. The MPX does not come with the 3 lug mount. The charge handle on the MPX is proprietary, floppy, and tends to scar the lower in use. MPX gasses you if you run a suppressor. Hand guards are proprietary, and oddly tall to accommodate the gas system, as is the whole upper in comparison to the small lower, so the gun balances strangely.
The paddle mag release on the MP5 eliminates the need for the complicated ambi buttons on the MPX. The MP5 with an ambi trigger pack is a mechanically simpler and more robust gun (trigger packs are the same used in a G3 battle rifle), I don't think that can be denied. To this day the MPA2 has NO BUFFER in the stock as the system is so well balanced it doesn't need one. Its manual of arms is different than an AR15, that doesn't change the fact it is still the most controllable sub machine gun made, bar none. If you shoot semi auto only, and mostly for fun, the MPX has a lot of amenities that you'll probably love. However, just a few weeks ago the MP5A3 was seen in the hands of the secret service outside the White house when there was a deranged man nearby that police eventually shot, so the secret service hasn't written the MP5 off as obsolete just yet, and neither has much of the rest of the world.
I disagree. It has lots of room to evoke. It can have conversion kits yet there has been no demand. Easily changed barrels. Gas rings which are the same as an M16 which many external pistons use. Much better trigger than MP5. Easy to work on without special tools and fixtures. Much can be done if the need arise.
I feel like an MP5 vs MPX comparison is similar to an AK vs AR comparison, you can modernize an MP5 and AK but it pales in comparison to to the modernization of the AR platform and the MPX is just a modernized incarnation of the AR, comparably the AK12 platform is comparable to like the MCX from Sig in its modernization when you think about it.
6:56 You've heard about what they say about men who have large hands?.... They wear large gloves.
The MPX has ease of handling in many ways is better than the MP5, however its longevity is questionable, all of the pins and springs are sub standard and "can" break or fall out after a few thousand rounds. I've sold off both of my gen 1 and gen 2 guns because of those issues, I never had any problems with the MPX I used at the SIG academy but my personal guns didn't go the distance. The MCX 556 variants have similar and even more problems. That side folding stock it a crap design as well. The screw holding it together will come loose eventually, SIG failed to install a steel heli-coil insert where it is very much needed. Firing pin springs are a joke and break after a few thousand rounds, hammer springs are the typical AR-15 springs and they break too. Standard AR15 springs should last a long time but SIG does not, I will say the magazines are great and expensive. Good luck with you MPX series guns because mine sucked. SIG should stick with pistols.
Whrn i shoot the mpxk is like i am shooting a 22lr. I am 57 and 158 pounds.
New, back, off, on, forward. For the MP-5. Very fast with practice.
Waiting for the Robinson Arms XCR-P
Nearly $3000? Last released price I saw was $3500, and they went up from there. You’re looking $4000 plus, and in the current market conditions, I’ve seen them on major online retailers for $5,000.
Now if I just had 3000.00..... 😂😂
Uh the hk sp5 has an extended safety that you can manipulate with one hand Chris. What are you talking about.
Exactly!
Chris is extremely knowledgable on firearms. I am shocked he said this.
i traded my mk 18 pistol with law folder all stock for fde mpx, matching eotech and 10 mags in the box. i loved the mk18 but like it was front heavy and though a historic gun i don't miss it. i collect and shoot and after running it a few times in local 3 gun the balance wasn't for me. i love shooting the sig and it will also be an iconic gun but one i love to shoot as often as i can. the real rarity is ammo. lol great review and p.s i will probably come across an mp 5 soon also lol (if i could stop buying import ak"s ) lmao.
Thumb up. Excelent explanation
Sub guns are cool and everything but the GWOT showed us its outdated id take an mk18